New Zealand moving Green

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1. Enough is Enough 1

   14 December 2021 at 11:43 am

   Well written Weka.

   Very pleasing poll indeed. This government is failing on so many fronts. The wealth gap continues to widen. Just look at the property values released yesterday if you want undisputable evidence of that.

   New Zealand needs the Green party at the cabinet table if we are ever going to see the real change that is so desperately needed.

   An election result that reflects this poll would be fantastic.
2. Sanctuary 2

   14 December 2021 at 11:49 am

   First, a big congratulations to David Farrar for getting some chump in the USA to start funding Curia again via all that Kock brother money flowing in the TPU, those right wingers know how to grift!

   Incessant polling by ACT party fronts like the Taxpayer Union is a form of campaigning and attempt to control the narrative (expect the TPU to feature heavily next GE with huge sums of dark money running a parallel anti-government election campaign, and because Jordan Williams is a moron expect the whole dirty campaign to blow up in their face at some stage).

   Anyway, the next election is still almost two years away. This sort of constant polling is utterly meaningless, except the horse race narrative that those lazy bastards in the press gallery love so much.
   • Gezza 2.1

     14 December 2021 at 12:31 pm

     This sort of constant polling is utterly meaningless, except the horse race narrative that those lazy bastards in the press gallery love so much.

     Well, that's not entirely true, in my view. Parties watch these polls much more closely than they admit.

     Once there's a trend established they seem to me to start trying to capitalise on them by coming out with new policies – or policy changes, or suspensions _ that will boost their support – or hopefully turn around a negative trend, if they're in government.
     • woodart 2.1.1

       14 December 2021 at 4:30 pm

       no, sanctuary got it right. his last paragraph is on point. lets see some comparo’s with overseas governments, who have been in power through the entire covid drama. I think you would find that nearly all of them have plummeted in popularity.
     • Robert Guyton 2.1.2

       14 December 2021 at 7:13 pm

       "Parties watch these polls much more closely than they admit."

       Link and evidence please.
       • Gezza 2.1.2.1

         14 December 2021 at 10:51 pm

         Don’t see why I should bother when you typically fail to provide any evidence & links for your bald assertions & I challenge them.

         But a couple of classic examples would be Ardern’s dumping of a Capital Gains Tax much in vogue with Labour politicians until her elevation to the leadership, & National’s dumping of zero hour contract negotiations when polls showed too much negative reaction to them.
         • Gezza 2.1.2.1.1

           14 December 2021 at 10:53 pm

           🙄 *zero hour contract legislation
         • Gezza 2.1.2.1.2

           14 December 2021 at 11:02 pm

           And just a correction, National finally agreed to ban zero hour contracts after it became evident there was too much public opposition to them. Previously they’d pretty much ignored them, IIRC.
   • Robert Guyton 2.2

     14 December 2021 at 7:13 pm

     Well said, Sanctuary: I appreciate your comments very much 🙂
   • mickysavage 2.3

     14 December 2021 at 8:17 pm

     Yep a manufactured surge. You can bet your bottom dollar if this poll was different they would not have published it.
3. Dennis Frank 3

   14 December 2021 at 11:50 am

   Could be another CB poll before xmas. If that confirms this one, broadly speaking, poor Labour delivery will be mitigated in Labour minds by the 7% differential with National.

   Furthermore, the 8% center-left predominance over the center-right alternative bodes well for the future. Luxon will have to grow a brain to figure out how to reduce that. Maybe he's complacent enough to rely on trad Labour incompetence instead. A gamble.
4. Tiger Mountain 4

   14 December 2021 at 12:00 pm

   Good news. Greens should be upward trending given what we are facing as a world and society!

   Chlöe Swarbrick is the only Parliamentary politician I have heard that has come out and unequivocally stated the obvious–house prices–and importantly, extortionate rents for dumps–must fall! on Bernard Hickey’s “When the facts change” podcast. Chlöe even supports striking retail workers in her segment and makes the point that she has a thumping great mortgage in central Auckland, no car, and lives her beliefs while still having strong support. Most politicians brick themselves and indulge in magical thinking as Mr Hickey calls it with housing, fearful of majorly losing support.

   https://thespinoff.co.nz/podcasts/when-the-facts-change

   There are differences in the Green Party and movement as in most political trends but tipping points have already been passed and more are close, time is too short not to be an Eco Socialist.
   • Blazer 4.1

     14 December 2021 at 12:08 pm

     Chloe is about the only politician I would think of voting for atm.

     Labour are a huge disappointment,not withstanding their handling of Covid.
     • tc 4.1.1

       14 December 2021 at 1:51 pm

       Agreed. Luxon isn't Collins so there's an immediate bounce which will settle down.

       Methinks folks may be waking up to the genuine need for the greens so their base will grow.
   • weka 4.2

     14 December 2021 at 12:13 pm

     Turei talked about it too. Will have to look up if it’s actually in GP policy.
     • weka 4.2.1

       14 December 2021 at 1:02 pm

       Auckland house prices should be deliberately reduced by up to 50 percent over a period of time to make the market affordable again, Greens co-leader Metiria Turei says.

       The average house price in Auckland has risen to nearly $1 million, or 10 times the median household income.

       Ms Turei said the only way to reverse that was to slowly bring prices back down to three or four times the median household income.

       She told Morning Report the Green Party was considering what timeframe would work without crashing the market and hurting people who already owned homes.

       "The only way to prevent a bust, and to protect families in the short and long term is to lay out a comprehensive plan, which means using every comprehensive tool that we've got so that we can slowly bring down house prices so that they're reasonable."

       The Auckland Council's chief economist had suggested bringing prices down to five times the median household income by 2030, she said.

       https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/309530/auckland-house-prices-need-to-drop-50-percent-greens

       2016. Labour weren't happy.
       • Blazer 4.2.1.1

         14 December 2021 at 1:28 pm

         Meteria was a big loss in Parliament.

         Years ago the equation was 3-4 times average income.

         Now the equation assumes 2 incomes….so the stats are even …more pronounced.

         Always remember seeing Meteria catching the bus from Wtgn airport to Parliament years ago.

         No limousine pickup or even taxi ..for her.
     • Tiger Mountain 4.2.2

       14 December 2021 at 1:06 pm

       Yes, Metiria was mentioned in the podcast I linked to.
       • weka 4.2.2.1

         14 December 2021 at 1:24 pm

         do you know which episodes?
         • Tiger Mountain 4.2.2.1.1

           14 December 2021 at 1:59 pm

           The Dec 3rd Edition if you check the link…Metiria is mentioned in the last third or so, which is Chlöe Swarbrick’s portion of the cast
           https://thespinoff.co.nz/podcasts/when-the-facts-change
           • weka 4.2.2.1.1.1

             14 December 2021 at 2:05 pm

             ta.
5. Gezza 5

   14 December 2021 at 12:07 pm

   Fireblade seems to have the actual numbers in a table format:

   Fireblade (OM 15.4)

   14 December 2021 at 11:41 am

   ……………………………………………………………..

   Labour 39.5 (+0.2%)

   National 32.6 (+6.4%)

   Greens 10.9 (+2.3%)

   ACT 10.6 (-5.3%)

   Maori Party 3.0 (+0.7%)

   NZ First 2.3 (+0.6%)

   Other 1.1 (-5.0%)

   Preferred PM

   Jacinda Ardern 39.1 (+5.1%)

   Christopher Luxon 20.4 (+16.3)

   David Seymour 5.6 (-4.9%)

   Winston Peters 2.4 (+0.9%)

   John Key 1.8 (-1.3%)
   • Gezza 5.1

     14 December 2021 at 12:37 pm

     Bryan Gould's response so brief & pertinent I've reproduced it in full here.

     [deleted]

     [you have to link if you are copy and pasting from off site, Feel free to repost with the link – weka]
     • weka 5.1.1

       14 December 2021 at 12:56 pm

       mod note.
       • Gezza 5.1.1.1

         14 December 2021 at 2:07 pm

         Apologies. So noted.

         Not worth doing both, imo. The article's brief, link below:

         https://bryangould.com/what-the-poll-shows/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=what-the-poll-shows
         • In Vino 5.1.1.1.1

           14 December 2021 at 7:13 pm

           Thanks Gezza.
         • GreenBus 5.1.1.1.2

           15 December 2021 at 9:03 am

           Nice one Gezza. Sums up the situation as I see it. Brief and to the point.
6. Blazer 6

   14 December 2021 at 12:41 pm

   From the link to Trevetts article-Fundamentally Luxon needs to lift his game.

   Resorts to ducking and diving ,will not be drawn on facts and figures…fundamentally ,vague and always talking macro generalisations…Christopher7…flummoxed…again.
   • Dennis Frank 6.1

     14 December 2021 at 12:47 pm

     But what if hasn't got what it takes to lift his game? That's when it ought to become obvious that he needs a minder – in the form of a political consultant on the job.

     What that person would do is give him the right angle from which to see the political advantage in a situation. Then advice on which stance to adopt to extract it.
     • Blazer 6.1.1

       14 December 2021 at 1:00 pm

       I expect he already has 1 or 2 minders/mentors and they are 'playing it safe' for….now.
       • Tiger Mountain 6.1.1.1

         14 December 2021 at 1:20 pm

         Mr Luxon, must try not to call him Baldrick again, has an admitted telephone confidante–one Sir John Phillip Key…so yes a significant advisor in the frame.

         Though has Sirkey lost his sea legs a bit, calling NZ a “smug hermit kingdom”, not too many apart from his media pals seemed to like that. Omnicron appears to be gathering steam in some countries so the more cautious NZ takes it over the holidays the better imo.
         • Tricledrown 6.1.1.1.1

           14 December 2021 at 2:01 pm

           Tiger Mountain agreed a cautious approach is needed.

           But National carry on barking at cars crying Wolf.

           Sounds terrible and eventually backfires.

           Looking at Labour's support through very tough decisions .

           Looking overseas while Omricon looks less dangerous the fact it spreads 2 to3 times more easily than Delta means way more people getting infected. That would mean more dying if it gets out of control.

           Labour are taking the don't panic safety first .

           We have time to look at what works and what doesn't.

           Labour should be praised for getting us through without major catastrophes that have occurred in every other country of any size.

           In health response and economic response.
           • Stuart Munro 6.1.1.1.1.1

             14 December 2021 at 5:06 pm

             It's only sensible – the viciousness or otherwise of Omicron is not nailed down just yet. A month or so more data and we may be able to accept or reject the proposition that it is less dangerous, and shape policy accordingly.
   • observer 6.2

     14 December 2021 at 1:08 pm

     Yes, from that Herald link (it's in the OP):

     "We've got to focus on New Zealanders and we've got work to do around housing and we've got work to do around education and we've got work to do around mental health.

     We've got work to do about how we get to a more productive economy that leads to higher wages."

     He's listed 5 things and I support all of them! Luxon's got my vote (/sarc).

     And what do those 5 things really mean? In list order:

     1) reverse National policies: 2) invest: 3) invest: 4) invest, and 5) … join a union?

     Lefty Luxon, what's not to like?
   • Tricledrown 6.3

     14 December 2021 at 1:28 pm

     National crying Wolf open all borders go to green blah blah dog barking at cars.

     Yet overseas those who were opening are now reintroducing restrictions.

     NSW numbers of covid infections rising rapidly again.

     Why do we need to panic so National can control the agenda can they take responsibility for another wave. Not likely.
     • Blazer 6.3.1

       14 December 2021 at 1:32 pm

       The surprising thing is people lap up this crap.

       You would think that after 9 years of avoiding doing much at all and never even admitting there was a housing crisis…that National would have much credibility…at all.
   • Robert Guyton 6.4

     14 December 2021 at 7:15 pm

     Luxon's doughy.
7. Ad 7

   14 December 2021 at 1:52 pm

   The Green Party is where it was at the beginning of the year, which is the same as what they were at the 2017 election.

   Opinion polling for the next New Zealand general election – Wikipedia

   Act having started at near-0% in the 2017 election are now equal with the Green Party, and totally outperformed them in 2021.

   More useful to look at the trend and ask what ought to be done differently to get a different result.
   • weka 7.1

     14 December 2021 at 2:03 pm

     The Green Party is where it was at the beginning of the year, which is the same as what they were at the 2017 election.

     The Greens had 6.3% at the 2017 election. They're now polling at 10.9%

     I am looking at the trend Ad. The Roy Morgan keeps the polling trend high (see your wiki link) but tends to place the Greens too high generally. It's the other polls as well having the Greens high that is making the difference.

     We do really need a poll of polls done well though.
   • Stuart Munro 7.2

     15 December 2021 at 7:27 pm

     Act having started at near-0% in the 2017 election are now equal with the Green Party, and totally outperformed them in 2021.

     Though I have seen nothing from the Greens that inclines me to renew my membership, you are being overly charitable to ACT. They scooped up some of the flotsam from the wreck of National and threw in a few issues calculated to pull punters, like gunnutjobbery.

     Let National look a bit less fragmented and much of that flotsam will drift back with the tide Luxon hopes will float his boat. If the Bard has it right:

     There is a tide in the affairs of men, which, taken at the flood, leads on to fortune;
     Omitted, all the voyage of their life, is bound in shallows and in miseries.

     Luxon will most likely return to CEO fantasyland in the event that the next election falls short of the mean high water springs it would take to free his party from the sucking ooze that fouls its bottom.
8. gsays 8

   14 December 2021 at 1:52 pm

   Thanks weka, not the easiest post to write, I am picking, given the recent 'inclusivity' legislation.

   As has been observed here before, the old right/left dichotomy is less fit for purpose. It doesn't take into account those with an authoritarian bent. The unquestioning support for the vaccine mandate is an example of that. Strange the things that can unite us…

   What I want from Te Greens, is to give a shit about the poor. Ardern lacks the motivation to go too far as WMBAD pointed out not so long ago. House prices are part of that. Benefits and wages at the bottom end of the scale. Yes, the living wage going up is a good thing, but the cheek involved with introducing a benefit during the pandemic at twice the rate of the existing rate showed that the 'deserving poor' ain't just a Tory thing.

   To make the changes required, we need less landlords, less vested interests and more activists.
   • weka 8.1

     14 December 2021 at 2:04 pm

     What I want from Te Greens, is to give a shit about the poor.

     Scratching my head over that. Do you not follow what they do on this? Or accept their policies?
     • gsays 8.1.1

       15 December 2021 at 7:29 pm

       That was clumsy on my part, more a grizzle about our kind regime rather than a criticism of Green's aspirations
       • weka 8.1.1.1

         15 December 2021 at 7:35 pm

         Sure, but I really don't understand why so many lefties take the opportunity to undermine the only party in parliament with solid left wing policies (apologies to Te Pati Māori, but I'm not familiar enough with theirs to position them on the political compass).

         There were prominent left greenies who hard criticised the Greens right up until a week or two before the last election and then suddenly said 'oh, btw, we're still voting Green because they're the best on offer'. These were seasoned political people with the most appalling messaging. To get people to vote Green, we have to uphold their mana all through the election cycle, and talk about their policies and positions in terms of the left and how to vote. This doesn't mean not criticising them, it means the critique needs to be one of still positioning them to the left of Labour, instead of just slagging them off as useless.

         Obviously this is very challenging for me given how I feel about their commitment to gender ideology, lol. Am thinking about it a lot at the moment.
   • RosieLee 8.2

     14 December 2021 at 4:34 pm

     Agreed. And the most effective change would be to impose a meaningful CGT on all property deals apart from the family home. Take residential property out of the "investment" equation. If I hear the phrases "mum and dad investors" and "getting on the property ladder" one more time I'll not be responsible for my actions.

     And oh – while on the job, stop residential property sales to immigrants and others who are rorting the system and leaving houses empty just for the capital gain. Bona fide NZ citizens living and working – and contributing – here ok.
     • Blazer 8.2.1

       14 December 2021 at 4:51 pm

       Your ideas make too much sense Rosielee….so they will be discarded.
       • arkie 8.2.1.1

         14 December 2021 at 4:57 pm

         The Greens campaigned on a CGT in 2020 and it was ruled out beforehand … by Labour.
     • Robert Guyton 8.2.2

       14 December 2021 at 7:17 pm

       The Greens should…"impose a meaningful"…?

       Impose?

       I see.
   • Anne 8.3

     14 December 2021 at 9:29 pm

     It doesn't take into account those with an authoritarian bent. The unquestioning support for the vaccine mandate is an example of that.

     There is no unquestioning support for a vaccine mandate. There is no mandate to be vaccinated full stop. People are free to choose. It looks like 95% of the population will ultimately be vaccinated. Around 5% have chosen not to be vaccinated.

     In order to safeguard all NZers the non-vaccinated cannot mingle freely in certain places nor can they travel to certain places. That is the price they have chosen to pay. These regulations are also in place to safeguard the immuno-compromised, many of whom can't be vaccinated.

     That is NOT authoritarian! That is common sense and a logical response to a deadly pandemic. Anyone who thinks otherwise is not only not thinking straight, but they need a kick up the bum in order to make them see reason. That just might happen with the spectre of the Omicron variant looming large in our sights.
     • weka 8.3.1

       14 December 2021 at 10:24 pm

       Labour use the term mandate. Financial coercion is still coercion. I don't know why there is denial of this, part of the point of the mandates is to push more people to get vaccinated.And that has had some effect.
       • Anne 8.3.1.1

         14 December 2021 at 11:08 pm

         There… is… no… mandate… on… Covid… vaccinations.

         If that were the case, then those who are not vaccinated would be breaking the law and liable for prosecution.

         The mandate referred to is a set of legally binding regulations (call them what you will) to help prevent hospitals etc. being over-run and to reduce as much as possible the spread of the disease among the populace. Non vaccinated people are naturally going to be more vulnerable to catching Covid and passing it on as well as ending up in hospital.

         The people who are in denial are those who cannot or will not see the necessity to have this type of "mandate" on certain activities while the country is struggling to contain a deadly virus.
         • weka 8.3.1.1.1

           14 December 2021 at 11:56 pm

           If that were the case, then those who are not vaccinated would be breaking the law and liable for prosecution.

           Semantics. Call that one compulsory.

           And you are right. The mandate is on employment and access. It's indirect. Part of the intention is to push more people to get vaccinated. Requiring people to accept medical treatment they don't want or they will lose their job is coercion. The rationale for that coercion might be just, and it's still coercion.
           • Anne 8.3.1.1.1.1

             15 December 2021 at 10:11 am

             It is only a mandate in high risk areas such as health, education and transport. Non governmental institutions such as local councils and regional boards plus private entities are free to choose whether they will apply a mandate on their staff/customers or clients. Some have, some haven't.

             The government's intent from the start has been to stop the wholesale spread of the virus using every means available to them which is a highly laudable stance. I thank them from the bottom of my heart for being so strong and determined despite the nay-sayers, many (if not most) of whom are acting out of political considerations.
             • weka …

               15 December 2021 at 11:06 am

               "t is only a mandate…"

               yes, it's a mandate.

               I understand the government's strategy. I don't understand the need to minimise negative impacts. Yes, someone losing their job is a negative, and it blows my mind that I have to explain that to left wing people.
             • gsays …

               15 December 2021 at 7:31 pm

               I was in one of those 'high risk' positions.

               Mowing lawns and doing occasional maintenance inside a villa.

               It was a mandate.
               • weka …

                 15 December 2021 at 7:37 pm

                 wait, what? There was a vaccine mandate on property maintenance?
                 • Rosemary McDonald …

                   15 December 2021 at 7:41 pm

                   Hell yes. It's a very tricky virus you know.

                   workers employed or engaged by certified providers, which includes workers at a facility providing hospital care, rest home care, residential disability care or fertility services (for example, anyone working in a hospital setting such as laundry staff, orderly, administration staff, or rest home staff like kitchen and cleaning staff)
                   • weka …

                     15 December 2021 at 7:44 pm

                     ok, that's different though. That's a mandate on people working in a health care facility. I'm asking of there is a mandate on property maintenance generally.
                 • gsays …

                   16 December 2021 at 5:58 pm

                   It is a small company with three campuses. Independent living with a Right to Occupy a villa. The company buys your villa when you vacate, refurbishes the dwelling and re-sells.
                   • weka …

                     16 December 2021 at 6:00 pm

                     elderly accommodation?
                 • gsays …

                   16 December 2021 at 6:24 pm

                   Reply to weka @ 6pm; yes, senior folk, from 60 up. Most still drive, a few health care workers come in- approx 4-5 a day for 80 residents.
               • Anne …

                 15 December 2021 at 8:09 pm

                 You claimed there was a vaccination mandate in this country. I responded.

                 There is no mandate for everyone to be vaccinated. But you can’t work in health and education facilities (and a few other high risk areas) if you are not vaccinated. Bloody good job too.

                 There are some countries who have introduced such a mandate. Not many because I imagine it would be impossible to police.
                 • weka …

                   15 December 2021 at 10:08 pm

                   good grief. No-one, and I mean literally no-one is saying that everyone has to get a vaccination when they say 'there is a vaccine mandate'. Please stop with the semantics, you knew exactly what people here meant.
                   • Rosemary McDonald …

                     16 December 2021 at 8:37 am

                     I went looking for sources to validate the claims that even school and junior sports attract vaccination requirements.

                     Sports NZ has a very well resourced website and might help with getting insight into how the government is communicating it's expectations on this matter. Very comprehensive.
       • mikesh 8.3.1.2

         15 December 2021 at 9:43 am

         This is probably no different from the compulsory unionism that was in place prior to the early nineties.
         • weka 8.3.1.2.1

           15 December 2021 at 9:56 am

           the gap between what the left thing is important to anti-vaxxers and what is actually important to anti-vaxxers grows by the minute.

           Hint, some people like to have autonomy over their health and body. Most people in fact. That's very different from being required to belong to a union.
           • mikesh 8.3.1.2.1.1

             16 December 2021 at 8:10 am

             They may be different in many respects, but coercion is something thy have in common.
             • weka …

               16 December 2021 at 8:48 am

               is having to pay tax a coercion?
       • Sacha 8.3.1.3

         16 December 2021 at 9:04 am

         Mandate is the term worldwide, and it applies more granularly than the whole population. There is no right to endanger the health of other people. Being selfish has consequences. None of this is new.
         • weka 8.3.1.3.1

           16 December 2021 at 9:09 am

           Sure. I don't know why some are reluctant to be honest about how it works and what the negative impacts are.

           And arguing against the term mandate because not everyone is being forced is a nonsense.
         • Rosemary McDonald 8.3.1.3.2

           16 December 2021 at 1:00 pm

           You might want to cast your educate eye over this Sacha…https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.08.21267162v1

           Evaluating the number of unvaccinated people needed to exclude to prevent SARS-CoV-2 transmissions

           Aaron Prosser, Bartosz Helfer, David L. Streiner

           doi: https://doi.org/10.1101/2021.12.08.21267162

           Conclusions Vaccines are beneficial, but the high NNEs suggest that excluding unvaccinated people has negligible benefits for reducing transmissions in many jurisdictions across the globe. This is because unvaccinated people are likely not at significant risk – in absolute terms – of transmitting SARS-CoV-2 to others in most types of settings since current baseline transmission risks are negligible. Consideration of the harms of exclusion is urgently needed, including staffing shortages from losing unvaccinated healthcare workers, unemployment/unemployability, financial hardship for unvaccinated people, and the creation of a class of citizens who are not allowed to fully participate in many areas of society.

           There is a wealth of data from the entire globe that contributed to this study.
           • gsays 8.3.1.3.2.1

             16 December 2021 at 6:18 pm

             Thanks Rosemary, good reading.

             "…The NNEs of almost every jurisdiction examined are well within the range of the NNTs of acetylsalicylic acid (ASA) in primary prevention of cardiovascular disease (CVD) (≥ 250 to 333). This is important since ASA is not recommended for primary prevention of CVD because the harms outweigh the benefits. Similarly, the harms of exclusion may outweigh the benefits. "

             NNE is Number Needed to Exclude. NNT is Number Needed to Treat.

             These sorts of studies are going to pile up and become a lot harder to ignore. Just as the number of outlets/businesses that are 'lax' with compliance will increase. My reckons have when the virus drops in status to merely a notifiable disease, these exclusions will cease. The reckons also say the exclusions will be well undermined by then, kinda like the TV licences.
             • Rosemary McDonald …

               16 December 2021 at 7:00 pm

               Thanks for taking a decent look at it gsays…the total dataset is a little intimidating, but they really wanted to gain a global picture.

               My reckons have when the virus drops in status to merely a notifiable disease, these exclusions will cease. The reckons also say the exclusions will be well undermined by then, kinda like the TV licences.

               I sincerely hope you're right. I am less optimistic as it's clear that quite a few on 'the left' are cheering the exclusions on from the sidelines. Goddess forbid the Nats or Act get in next time and I won't ever vote for Labour. The Greens seems to have disappeared up their own woke crevasses…so I guess I'l be abstaining this time.

               Watching the Wellington march today I must admit to being impressed by Bishop Apostle Tamaki's daughter. I cannot abide the parents or the church, but the young woman spoke with confidence and sincerity and really engaged the crowd. I can see her being a political contender in the future.
               • gsays …

                 16 December 2021 at 7:16 pm

                 In regards your last para, it is funny who emerges as unusual allies.

                 Jordan Peterson got a lot of notoriety (I assume) when he argued that the gender pay gap had less to do with THE PATRIARCHY and more to do with the innate differences between us. Then he becomes a spearhead in Canada for opposing the compulsion of self ID gender pro nouns.

                 Similarly, I have little time for Tamaki and organised religion, but have found myself wondering who else is going to galvanise the disparate outsiders and give them a voice.

                 As for not voting, can I suggest a real big clothes peg for the nose and still excercise your perogative.
                 • Rosemary McDonald …

                   16 December 2021 at 7:57 pm

                   Jordan Peterson has a manner I find irritating, and he did for a while enjoy a reputation for 'destroying' feminists on talkshows. Cue a following of what became the incels…and I actually met one a year or so ago. Thinking this youngish man was up to a little robust debate I opined that Peterson was a tad misogynistic. Master Unstable at Room Temperature went right off. Quite scarily actually. He was later heard holding forth at a community meeting a few weeks later and I believe interventions had to be made. There was some chemical use going on…

                   Peterson tends to be quite literal. He avoids beating around the bush…which I respect. He had a period of 'unwellness' a year or so ago and seems to have become more willing to chat and discuss with others rather than simply stating his position and sighing if not agreed with.
                   • gsays …

                     16 December 2021 at 8:32 pm

                     I have listened to his latest book and find most of what he has to say familiar. By that I mean it is a message that has been given many times.

                     Being wary of ideologies and ideologues, simple answers to complicated problems – THE PATRIARCHY for example. Also the contrast of order and chaos and the need for balance.

                     I do find the 'destroyer' thing a little tiresome. Although he does discuss his understanding of why he is so popular with young males and it seems to boil down to responsibilty. These young fellows are growing up without having responsibilities…
9. Corey Humm 9

   14 December 2021 at 4:47 pm

   that's a really strong first time poll for an opposition leader. most of the time they struggle to get double digets regardless of what party is in power.

   The greens poll is nothing to get excited about, the increase is inside the margin of error but I'm glad they are potentially getting left wing votes. I'd like to trust that they would pull labour to the left but I genuinely don't see the greens as doing anything class left and instead reckon they'd settle for a bunch of woke social policy reforms instead of economic reforms. I only ever hear them talking about woke social stuff these days but it'd be good to see what they actually do with the power to pull labour left. I still don't trust the Waiheke island brigade to do anything different than what labour currently does but I'd love to be wrong.

   it's good labour and the greens combined out poll the nats,act and Maori party who should all be grouped together because they are the former govt parties and the Maori party is now saying it's not a center left party but a centerist party "whose open to working with national" which makes sense because the party's ideology more than anything seems to be hatred of labour because it's current male co-leader is a bitter former labour candidate, it's former male co-leader is a bitter former labour mp, both claimed to hate the Maori party till very recently. There's also a bunch of former green candidates and staffers involved with MP who hate the Greens. I can't see a coalition with lab/green/mp I reckon they'd go with National again and they are admittedly open to it.
   • arkie 9.1

     14 December 2021 at 4:55 pm

     I only ever hear them talking about woke social stuff these days

     This suits Labour. The Greens take the 'blame' for a Labour bill, put forward during a Labour government by a Labour MP.

     Labour ruled out any of the Greens wealth, inequality or tax policy before the 2020 election. Here's a reminder of them:

     https://www.greens.org.nz/policy_election_initiatives_2020

     I am particularly interested in the Poverty Action Plan:

     • A Guaranteed Minimum Income of $325 per week for students and people out of work, no matter what.
     • A Universal Child Benefit for each child under three of $100 per week.
     • A simplified Family Support Credit of $190 per week for the first child and $120 per week for subsequent children to replace the Working for Families tax credits with a higher abatement threshold and lower abatement rate.
     • Additional support for single parents through a $110 per week top-up.
     • Reforming ACC to become the Agency for Comprehensive Care, creating equitable social support for everyone with a work-impairing health condition or disability, with a minimum payment of 80% of the full-time minimum wage.
     • Changes to abatement and relationship rules so people can earn more from paid work before their income support entitlements are reduced.
     • A 1% wealth tax for those with a net-worth over $1 million.
     • And two new top income tax brackets for a more progressive tax system that redistributes wealth.

     https://www.greens.org.nz/poverty_action_plan
   • Robert Guyton 9.2

     14 December 2021 at 7:18 pm

     "that's a really strong first time poll for an opposition leader..but of course, Not Judith.."

     Fify.
   • SPC 9.3

     14 December 2021 at 7:25 pm

     Todd Muller after one month takes National from 29% to 38%. And his preferred PM rating was 13% (Simon Bridges was at 5% when rolled).

     https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/25/jacinda-ardern-loses-ground-to-national-party-but-remains-on-track-to-win-new-zealand-election

     Chris Luxon takes National up 5% by taking support off Seymour and ACT. No NACT closing of the gap with Labour/Greens. But he did get a good level of personal support, so the PM can no longer question whether he is Leader of the Opposition in name only (as she did when Seymour was outpolling Collins)
     • Robert Guyton 9.3.1

       14 December 2021 at 7:28 pm

       Nat supporters were desperate for something!

       Anything!!
10. vto 10

    16 December 2021 at 8:28 am

    That New Zealand is moving Green is so unsurprising..

    society always follows the hippies..

    always..

    silly conservatives don't even realise this..

    while they follow a generation or so after..

    always..
    • weka 10.1

      16 December 2021 at 8:47 am

      exactly this.
    • miravox 10.2

      16 December 2021 at 10:40 am

      society always follows the hippies..

      Scary – that's how we got the uber-individualism we have today. 1960's hippies were nothing if not libertarian.

      Lucky this lot seem more legitimately community-focused.
      • Dennis Frank 10.2.1

        16 December 2021 at 11:07 am

        uber-individualism

        You ain't wrong. Ego-driven stuff was rampant as we shed our conditioning in the liberation phase. Lasch's culture of narcissism had me sceptical at the time, but when I read it later I realised he was right.

        this lot seem more legitimately community-focused

        I wouldn't be too confident that's true. They are maintaining the ethos we established for the Greens but also warping into wokeism which divides communities. Authentic community-builders integrate.
        • RedLogix 10.2.1.1

          16 December 2021 at 11:12 am

          Authentic community-builders integrate.

          Nailed it. That's the litmus test I've been using for a long while now.
        • miravox 10.2.1.2

          16 December 2021 at 7:04 pm

          It's can be a fine line between inclusivity for one group and alienation for another, I agree. I don't think The Greens, in coalition, will cross that line in a way that will be terrible for society.

          Anyway, it's a bit self-defeating to vote on this single issue when the whole world is at stake right now.
    • Blazer 10.3

      16 December 2021 at 11:15 am

      There are 2 types of Greens…

      ones I like=Chloe,Marama,Jan,Eugenie

      and the ones I don't=Shaw,Golriz,JAG.
11. miravox 11

    16 December 2021 at 10:43 am

    Teanau Tuiono's most excellent adjournment speech gives me hope for the reformation of our urban environment

    "all I want for Christmas is urban density done well"

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