Off to war

Written By: - Date published: 9:00 am, October 16th, 2014 - 70 comments
Categories: brand key, iraq, john key, spin, war - Tags: , , , ,

John Key before the election:

Key rules out sending troops to Iraq

Prime Minister John Key has ruled out New Zealand military intervention in Iraq, barring an unlikely United Nations Security Council mission

Today, on the 100th anniversary of the departure of the New Zealand Expeditionary Force to fight in WWI, it seems clear that Key has, without any kind of due process, broken that promise. From the Herald:

Public misled on US talks: Goff

…Labour’s Phil Goff says Mr Key himself was misleading the public by insisting that New Zealand Chief of Defence Force Lieutenant General Tim Keating was attending a “regular” meeting of defence chiefs – where Islamic State was the only item on the agenda.

The meeting of military chiefs from various countries, including General Keating, at Andrews Air Force Base was addressed by US President Barack Obama. …

International media billed it as a meeting of the anti-Isis coalition and an official report from the US Department of Defence described it as a meeting “to co-ordinate strategies in the fight against Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant terrorists”.

In other coverage:

The Defence Force revealed that military leaders from various countries do not meet regularly and admitted that it was not just a “normal” meeting. It was the first time a meeting with high-ranking military officials from different countries was conducted after a coalition was formed to fight the extremist group.

Security analyst Paul Buchanan said that the presence of New Zealand’s defence chief in the meeting with Mr Obama strongly suggests that the country will join the campaign against ISIS. He said if it was only a negotiation for a possible role, a diplomat would have been sent instead. Since the head of New Zealand’s military forces was sent to the meeting, it may mean the government has “already agreed to some role.”

Key is lying to us again, though the Herald is, as usual, willing to believe anything to defend his brand, with the piece quoted above beginning:

Prime Minister John Key appears to have been misinformed by the Defence Force about the nature of a Washington meeting of the United States-led coalition to defeat Islamic State.

Ahhh – so it’s the Defence Force deciding to go to war without informing the PM then is it? Pull the other one Granny.

70 comments on “Off to war ”

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  1. cogito 1
    16 October 2014 at 9:31 am

    The Defence Force must have spoken to Key’s office while Key was on holiday in Hawaii, and Key knew nothing about it.

  2. One Anonymous Bloke 2
    16 October 2014 at 9:39 am

    Whether or not the US will be in a position to mount a attack on ISIL depends very much on the progress of their Ebola outbreak. The same is probably true for ISIL.

    • Colonial Rawshark 2.1
      16 October 2014 at 9:49 am

      Even if infections spread at full tilt in the USA – unlikely because they do have some modern measures in place – it is unlikely to become a military/economy disabling phenomenon for at least 18 months. (Assume doubling period of ~25 days).

      • RedLogix 2.1.1
        16 October 2014 at 10:11 am

        Exponential growth is more brutal than that.

        The way to calculate the number of doubling periods to reach x if you start with y cases is:

        (ln(x) – ln(y))/ln(2) where ln is the natural logarithm.

        For instance if you start with 4 cases the number of doublings to reach say 32 cases is obviously 3. The formula above calculates the same result as:

        ln(32) = 3.46

        ln(4) = 1.38

        ln(2) = 0.69

        Doubling Periods = (3.46 – 1.38)/ 0.69 = 3.0

        Given a world population of 7,500,000,000 and around 8,000 cases at present the number of doubling periods is not as many as you would think. 18 months is a decent ballpark, but subject to lots of assumptions.

        • RedLogix 2.1.1.1
          16 October 2014 at 11:16 am

          I should add of course – it’s not a personal fear of contracting ebola which I’m targeting here. In the developed world there is every reason to think public health measures will work.

          It is the potential cascade of unanticipated secondary effects that will occur if it gets out of control in the undeveloped world which has little to no access to health care of any sort which worry me.

          Not to mention the potentially horrendous death toll and immense dislocation of peoples and refugees.

          • Colonial Rawshark 2.1.1.1.1
            16 October 2014 at 11:26 am

            Ahhh right there is that; thanks for the mathematical description as well (used to be able to handle that simple maths at uni…less so these days).

          • One Anonymous Bloke 2.1.1.1.2
            16 October 2014 at 3:01 pm

            That’s partly what I’m getting at: lots of work to do without having to worry about fighting a potentially soon-to-be infected enemy.

  3. vto 3
    16 October 2014 at 9:41 am

    Key is a liar again

  4. Colonial Rawshark 4
    16 October 2014 at 9:55 am

    Juan Cole’s long running “informed consent” blog on ME affairs is a crucial read, at this time. This piece is by an occasional contributor to that blog, William Astore:

    America’s colonial armies: absentee soldiers, corrupt officers and collapse

    Call it fire in the belly, a willingness to take the fight to the enemy. The Islamic State’s militants, at least for the moment, clearly have that will; Iraqi security forces, painstakingly trained and lavishly underwritten by the U.S. government, do not.

    This represents a failure of the first order. So here’s the $60 billion question: Why did such sustained U.S. efforts bear such bitter fruit? The simple answer: for a foreign occupying force to create a unified and effective army from a disunified and disaffected populace was (and remains) a fool’s errand. In reality, U.S. intervention, now as then, will serve only to aggravate that disunity, no matter what new Anbar Awakenings are attempted.

    In other words, to stabilise Iraq’s security situation, the USA (and it seems, NZ) will have to be back in there for the medium to long term (5+ years) with no viable exit strategy.

    • travellerev 4.1
      16 October 2014 at 11:29 am

      Yep, America the empire is crumbling and they need new cannon fodder from little hobbiton countries who still believe they are the good guys. But conspiring? Never, They would not do that to us! That’s just tinfoil hatter material!

    • Instauration 4.2
      16 October 2014 at 10:37 pm

      Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Turkey and the United Arab Emirates are each participants at this “regular” meeting.
      John would find it “odd” if we didn’t follow their “involvement”;

      “However, most of New Zealand’s traditional allies were involved to some extent and it would be “odd” if New Zealand did nothing”
      http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11341434

      Well these nations have certainly been involved – ISIS is very grateful to them.

      • Colonial Rawshark 4.2.1
        16 October 2014 at 11:08 pm

        Well, Qatar, UAE and Jordan are such close, longstanding allies of NZ…not

        • Instauration 4.2.1.1
          16 October 2014 at 11:15 pm

          Yep – and that Saudi Arabia nation has been beheading miscreants in custody faster than any ISIS endeavour.
          Thanks for updating with Jordan.

          • Colonial Rawshark 4.2.1.1.1
            16 October 2014 at 11:33 pm

            These countries buy tens of billions of USD worth of advanced arms from the US every year. That’s many times our military’s annual budget. Their bases are right nearby, their supply lines are short, it is their language and culture, they can sort ISIS out in a few months in tandem with the USA – if they wanted to. As you implied before – support for ISIS has been coming from these very same countries.

  5. framu 5
    16 October 2014 at 10:01 am

    the thing is – its such a damn stupid lie any way

    Of all the lies you could tell to hide just how much weve commited to – pretending that the meeting is the opposite of what every other single person is saying is just brain dead idiocy

    its like trying to deny the sky is blue

    • Tracey 5.1
      16 October 2014 at 10:08 am

      and 47% of the voters dont care… perhaps conscription should come back for this fight starting with the 47%

      • travellerev 5.1.1
        16 October 2014 at 11:30 am

        Don’t worry that will follow! They have to get rid of all males of the fighting fit age. before it all goes pear shaped.

        • Sabine 5.1.1.1
          16 October 2014 at 11:49 am

          are there no females in the NZ Army, and would they not die equally in any war?

          and yes, if the PM wants to be a wartime PM, he should call for a conscription with no exits for the rich and his son and daughter should go and help defeat the evil ones.

          and no I don;t know if the kids of dear leader support Daddies politics nor do I care. If Dear Leader is happy to send other peoples children to a war that he wants, than it should be all the young and able bodied or none. Not just the poverty conscripts.

          • Chooky Shark Smile 5.1.1.1.1
            16 October 2014 at 1:55 pm

            +100

          • Colonial Rawshark 5.1.1.1.2
            16 October 2014 at 2:20 pm

            than it should be all the young and able bodied or none. Not just the poverty *predominantly brown* conscripts.

            Just as a refinement

            • Chooky Shark Smile 5.1.1.1.2.1
              16 October 2014 at 2:34 pm

              …another reason for Nanaia Mahuta to be Leader of the Labour Party

              Helen Clark did not take us into the US led Iraq war …and we should for ever be grateful to her for her courageous standing out against this illegitimate war!

              …the consequences of which are now … ISIS

              • Wayne …
                16 October 2014 at 4:02 pm

                She did deploy a squadron of Army Engineers to Iraq, which was announced before the war even began.

                Skillful politics by her, however.

                In fact at the same time, she also announced sending an Orion to the Gulf, a frigate to the Gulf, and the SAS to Afghanistan. It was all part of the deal she cut with the Americans around November 2002, so she could both say NZ was not part of the Iraq war, but was nevertheless being seen to do a whole of other things that were related to the war.

                And without compromising people (sources), I actually know that this was the deal that was cut.

                • One Anonymous Bloke …
                  16 October 2014 at 4:08 pm

                  How long do you suppose before Ebola reaches ISIL, Dr. Mapp?

                • Tracey …
                  16 October 2014 at 4:12 pm

                  an eloquent ” labour did it too” defence

                  if the defence force lied to you wayne, wouldnt you want accountability?

                • Puddleglum …
                  16 October 2014 at 7:16 pm

                  Hi Wayne,

                  Are you therefore saying that deception of the New Zealand public over putting other New Zealanders in harms way is endemic to government in this country and acceptable to all parties?

                  • Colonial Rawshark …
                    16 October 2014 at 8:47 pm

                    NZ and the NZ power elite is an integral part of the anglo-saxon imperial framework, is my takeaway from this.

                    Nevertheless, keeping hundreds of Kiwi infantry boots far away from Iraq was a skillful move by Clark as it has become clear that the US/UK had zero idea of what they were doing in that country.

                  • Wayne …
                    17 October 2014 at 7:00 am

                    At the time (Dec 2002) I was impressed at Helen’s skill in achieving that deal. And her instincts on the issue were proven to be correct

                • adam …
                  16 October 2014 at 8:37 pm

                  Corporate elects acting like the lap dogs they are – Thanks for that Wayne.

          • Draco T Bastard 5.1.1.1.3
            16 October 2014 at 3:22 pm

            I think that if the politicians want to go to war then their kids are automatically conscripted at the beginning of the campaign. I suspect that we’ll see less willingness by politicians to go to war then.

          • Murray Rawshark 5.1.1.1.4
            17 October 2014 at 2:33 am

            I vote for the “none” option.

    • RedLogix 5.2
      16 October 2014 at 10:42 am

      Which kind of demonstrates that Key knows he can do anything he damn well pleases right now.

      After all – exactly who is going to hold him to account?

      Not a compliant media, not a non-existent, dysfunctional Opposition, nor any protest. National know they have at least the next one or two elections in the bag.

      Rollout the war-drums, beat the patriot marches and it’s game over. Bring on the baby-eating.

  6. BLiP 6
    16 October 2014 at 10:11 am

    ‘

    John Key is keeping up his record of one lie to New Zealand each week. I’m sure there’s more but since the election we’ve been asked to believe . . .

    David Seymour did not ask for a Ministership position with the National Party

    There will be no New Zealand military intervention in Iraq, barring an unlikely United Nations Security Council mission.

    The New Zealand military personnel are just attending a regular ordinary meeting in the United States

    . . . the worrying thing is the last two. When John Key is in the shit, his lies come in clusters (cf: the GCSB fiascao) so I’m wondering now if we are about to see a flurry of lies about New Zealand participating in yet another US “crusade” to maintain the manufactured chaos in and around the oil-producing countries.

    • Tracey 6.1
      16 October 2014 at 10:26 am

      baby cheeses

      and presumably the head of our defence force is about to be sacked for lying to the pm about the meeting. I imagine there will be a press conference at lunchtime.

    • ghostwhowalksnz 6.2
      16 October 2014 at 12:14 pm

      He said ‘regular meeting ‘ 13 times!

      But you wait, at some stage he will deny he ever said that.

      • Tracey 6.2.1
        16 October 2014 at 2:30 pm

        people keep mishearing him, he keeps misunderstanding others, but everyone keeps their jobs.

  7. adam 7
    16 October 2014 at 10:36 am

    And Jingoism was the winner on the day.

    I always liked the XTC song War Dance – sorry at volunteer work at present and canny access the link – will later.

    I’m not surprised though, with a tanking economy. Couple this, with a strong desire to be a back as a regular member of the Anglo Saxon Brotherhood. AND BANG! Our young man and women get shot at and killed so some crackers can feel part of a global club.

  8. Tracey 8
    16 October 2014 at 10:43 am

    what happened to your other posts anthony?

    • r0b 8.1
      16 October 2014 at 11:02 am

      Sorry – not sure what you mean?

      • Tracey 8.1.1
        16 October 2014 at 11:11 am

        I thought I saw a couple of others…one about even dunne thinks key is arrogant… have I gone mad?

        • r0b 8.1.1.1
          16 October 2014 at 11:26 am

          As far as I can tell TS is displaying posts I have written correctly. I certainly haven’t written one on Dunne and Key recently. Very odd!

          • Tracey 8.1.1.1.1
            16 October 2014 at 11:33 am

            it had to happen… I guess…. I have gone mad. I did wonder at you having 2 or 3 one after the other

            • rawshark-yeshe 8.1.1.1.1.1
              16 October 2014 at 12:03 pm

              @Tracey .. have a nice cuppa and a wee lie down — we need you ! 😀

              (and fwiw I read a comment yesterday on Stuff re Dunne’s pretend angst about this .. but for sure, he will be bought off again cheaply as ever.)

  9. ghostwhowalksnz 9
    16 October 2014 at 11:42 am

    This dance of the veils about a military deployment that has been decided is all because of the United Nations vote tomorrow on the membership of the Security Council. Spain Turkey and NZ are vying for two seats.

    Theres a pretense we arent going to be involved, much as Turkey is doing.

    THis is why all the lies are being told. And they arent even trying to get their story straight so even more lies have to be told.

    • Instauration 9.1
      16 October 2014 at 10:54 pm

      Matthew is there every time (actually there) – all the time. UNSC membership vote updates here;

      http://www.innercitypress.com/unsc3races101514.html

      • GregJ 9.1.1
        17 October 2014 at 4:59 am

        France 24 update has New Zealand elected along with Angola, Malaysia & Venezuela. (1600 GMT)

        • Ad 9.1.1.1
          17 October 2014 at 5:29 am

          Now that Key is an international player, he will be part of the effort to remove popular democracy as the normative global system and replace it with an alignment of cruel Arab militant monarchies, superpowers, UN programmes for the poor, and energy interests. Multinational agreements other than militarily backed ones wither.

          I remember the pessimistic Shell scenario after 9/11. It was just like this.

          The post New Deal/social democrat world is now permanent, both in NZ and globally.

  10. rawshark-yeshe 10
    16 October 2014 at 11:57 am

    Re-posting this from Open Mike …

    When even Paddy Gower is saying stuff like this about Key, we are so deeply in trouble … Paddy calls Key a liar in every way without using the actual word … amazing what we have as a prime minister …

    http://www.3news.co.nz/nznews/gower-keys-claims-on-is-meeting-ridiculous-2014101610?ref=video

  12. Sable 12
    16 October 2014 at 4:05 pm

    No surprises. This government and for that matter its predecessor are in the US/UK alliances back pocket. Of course they will join in the latest imperialist rampage.

  13. RedBaronCV 13
    16 October 2014 at 7:32 pm

    Arrogant isn’t he. Once again he is either telling lies or he is so incompetent he has no idea what the people working for him are doing … but then refuses to sack anyone for misleading him. Doesn’t mind a few young New Zealanders dying for his golf game maybe.

    • joe90 13.1
      16 October 2014 at 9:44 pm

      Tommy

      I went into a public-‘ouse to get a pint o’ beer,
      The publican ‘e up an’ sez, “We serve no red-coats here.”
      The girls be’ind the bar they laughed an’ giggled fit to die,
      I outs into the street again an’ to myself sez I:
      O it’s Tommy this, an’ Tommy that, an’ “Tommy, go away”;
      But it’s “Thank you, Mister Atkins”, when the band begins to play,
      The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play,
      O it’s “Thank you, Mister Atkins”, when the band begins to play.

      I went into a theatre as sober as could be,
      They gave a drunk civilian room, but ‘adn’t none for me;
      They sent me to the gallery or round the music-‘alls,
      But when it comes to fightin’, Lord! they’ll shove me in the stalls!
      For it’s Tommy this, an’ Tommy that, an’ “Tommy, wait outside”;
      But it’s “Special train for Atkins” when the trooper’s on the tide,
      The troopship’s on the tide, my boys, the troopship’s on the tide,
      O it’s “Special train for Atkins” when the trooper’s on the tide.

      Yes, makin’ mock o’ uniforms that guard you while you sleep
      Is cheaper than them uniforms, an’ they’re starvation cheap;
      An’ hustlin’ drunken soldiers when they’re goin’ large a bit
      Is five times better business than paradin’ in full kit.
      Then it’s Tommy this, an’ Tommy that, an’ “Tommy, ‘ow’s yer soul?”
      But it’s “Thin red line of ‘eroes” when the drums begin to roll,
      The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
      O it’s “Thin red line of ‘eroes” when the drums begin to roll.

      We aren’t no thin red ‘eroes, nor we aren’t no blackguards too,
      But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you;
      An’ if sometimes our conduck isn’t all your fancy paints,
      Why, single men in barricks don’t grow into plaster saints;
      While it’s Tommy this, an’ Tommy that, an’ “Tommy, fall be’ind”,
      But it’s “Please to walk in front, sir”, when there’s trouble in the wind,
      There’s trouble in the wind, my boys, there’s trouble in the wind,
      O it’s “Please to walk in front, sir”, when there’s trouble in the wind.

      You talk o’ better food for us, an’ schools, an’ fires, an’ all:
      We’ll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational.
      Don’t mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face
      The Widow’s Uniform is not the soldier-man’s disgrace.
      For it’s Tommy this, an’ Tommy that, an’ “Chuck him out, the brute!”
      But it’s “Saviour of ‘is country” when the guns begin to shoot;
      An’ it’s Tommy this, an’ Tommy that, an’ anything you please;
      An’ Tommy ain’t a bloomin’ fool — you bet that Tommy sees!

      – Rudyard Kipling

      • AmaKiwi 13.1.1
        16 October 2014 at 11:00 pm

        A previous imperial army raping and pillaging its colonies.

        Soldiers to protect NZ from foreign invasion. Yes. Sign me up.

        A friend told me he left the USA because he didn’t want his son dying for the generals: General Motors, General Electric, General Dynamics . . .

      • greywarshark 13.1.2
        17 October 2014 at 12:45 pm

        Thanks joe90. Rudyard Kipling writing shows up many things about his period very sensitively.

  14. Murray Rawshark 14
    17 October 2014 at 2:25 am

    “Ahhh – so it’s the Defence Force deciding to go to war without informing the PM then is it?”

    If we had a Labour PM, I’d believe that. They’ve done it before and Nicky Hager has written a book about it.

  15. Enough is Enough 15
    17 October 2014 at 12:42 pm

    Oh, war, I despise
    ‘Cause it means destruction of innocent lives
    War means tears to thousands of mothers eyes
    When their sons go off to fight and lose their lives

    I said
    War, huh good God y’all
    What is it good for?
    Absolutely nothing, just say it again
    War whoa Lord
    What is it good for?
    Absolutely nothing, listen to me
    War, it ain’t nothin’ but a heartbreak
    War, friend only to the undertaker

    Oh war, is an enemy to all mankind
    The thought of war blows my mind
    War has caused unrest within the younger generation
    Induction, then destruction who wants to die

    Read more: Edwin Starr – War Lyrics | MetroLyrics

  16. greywarshark 16
    17 October 2014 at 12:43 pm

    As rich old Mr Burns in the Simpsons pronounced ‘Release the dogs’. The Defence Force is trained to defend territory and attack, like dogs. They know how to use guns, and also to put their scruples about respecting other people if they have any, in their boots as an inner sole.

    They are getting their chance to use their training, and their weapons, and learn about new weapons, and have overseas experiences.
    Which men have stated were their thoughts when they went to WW2 etc….

  18. greywarshark 18
    17 October 2014 at 3:32 pm

    @ ropata mako shark 3.24
    Thank you for that Leunig.
    Thank you for that Leunig.Thank you for that Leunig.
    Thank you for that Leunig.Thank you for that Leunig.Thank you for that Leunig.
    He spoke locally a while ago. I missed it. Fat head syndrome.

  19. Scintilla 19
    17 October 2014 at 9:48 pm

    My son is in Waiouru right now, training to be a soldier. He thought the army offered him free education & training, job security for a few years, a bit of “manning up” and a chance to impress his probable father-in-law.

    He still thinks that when push comes to shove he won’t be on the front lines.

    I wait in quiet despair.

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