Off to war

Written By: - Date published: 9:00 am, October 16th, 2014 - 70 comments
Categories: brand key, iraq, john key, spin, war - Tags: , , , ,

John Key before the election:

Key rules out sending troops to Iraq

Prime Minister John Key has ruled out New Zealand military intervention in Iraq, barring an unlikely United Nations Security Council mission

Today, on the 100th anniversary of the departure of the New Zealand Expeditionary Force to fight in WWI, it seems clear that Key has, without any kind of due process, broken that promise. From the Herald:

Public misled on US talks: Goff

…Labour’s Phil Goff says Mr Key himself was misleading the public by insisting that New Zealand Chief of Defence Force Lieutenant General Tim Keating was attending a “regular” meeting of defence chiefs – where Islamic State was the only item on the agenda.

The meeting of military chiefs from various countries, including General Keating, at Andrews Air Force Base was addressed by US President Barack Obama. …

International media billed it as a meeting of the anti-Isis coalition and an official report from the US Department of Defence described it as a meeting “to co-ordinate strategies in the fight against Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant terrorists”.

In other coverage:

The Defence Force revealed that military leaders from various countries do not meet regularly and admitted that it was not just a “normal” meeting. It was the first time a meeting with high-ranking military officials from different countries was conducted after a coalition was formed to fight the extremist group.

Security analyst Paul Buchanan said that the presence of New Zealand’s defence chief in the meeting with Mr Obama strongly suggests that the country will join the campaign against ISIS. He said if it was only a negotiation for a possible role, a diplomat would have been sent instead. Since the head of New Zealand’s military forces was sent to the meeting, it may mean the government has “already agreed to some role.”

Key is lying to us again, though the Herald is, as usual, willing to believe anything to defend his brand, with the piece quoted above beginning:

Prime Minister John Key appears to have been misinformed by the Defence Force about the nature of a Washington meeting of the United States-led coalition to defeat Islamic State.

Ahhh – so it’s the Defence Force deciding to go to war without informing the PM then is it? Pull the other one Granny.

70 comments on “Off to war ”

  1. cogito 1

    The Defence Force must have spoken to Key’s office while Key was on holiday in Hawaii, and Key knew nothing about it.

  2. One Anonymous Bloke 2

    Whether or not the US will be in a position to mount a attack on ISIL depends very much on the progress of their Ebola outbreak. The same is probably true for ISIL.

    • Colonial Rawshark 2.1

      Even if infections spread at full tilt in the USA – unlikely because they do have some modern measures in place – it is unlikely to become a military/economy disabling phenomenon for at least 18 months. (Assume doubling period of ~25 days).

      • RedLogix 2.1.1

        Exponential growth is more brutal than that.

        The way to calculate the number of doubling periods to reach x if you start with y cases is:

        (ln(x) – ln(y))/ln(2) where ln is the natural logarithm.

        For instance if you start with 4 cases the number of doublings to reach say 32 cases is obviously 3. The formula above calculates the same result as:

        ln(32) = 3.46

        ln(4) = 1.38

        ln(2) = 0.69

        Doubling Periods = (3.46 – 1.38)/ 0.69 = 3.0

        Given a world population of 7,500,000,000 and around 8,000 cases at present the number of doubling periods is not as many as you would think. 18 months is a decent ballpark, but subject to lots of assumptions.

        • RedLogix 2.1.1.1

          I should add of course – it’s not a personal fear of contracting ebola which I’m targeting here. In the developed world there is every reason to think public health measures will work.

          It is the potential cascade of unanticipated secondary effects that will occur if it gets out of control in the undeveloped world which has little to no access to health care of any sort which worry me.

          Not to mention the potentially horrendous death toll and immense dislocation of peoples and refugees.

          • Colonial Rawshark 2.1.1.1.1

            Ahhh right there is that; thanks for the mathematical description as well (used to be able to handle that simple maths at uni…less so these days).

          • One Anonymous Bloke 2.1.1.1.2

            That’s partly what I’m getting at: lots of work to do without having to worry about fighting a potentially soon-to-be infected enemy.

  3. vto 3

    Key is a liar again

  4. Colonial Rawshark 4

    Juan Cole’s long running “informed consent” blog on ME affairs is a crucial read, at this time. This piece is by an occasional contributor to that blog, William Astore:

    America’s colonial armies: absentee soldiers, corrupt officers and collapse

    Call it fire in the belly, a willingness to take the fight to the enemy. The Islamic State’s militants, at least for the moment, clearly have that will; Iraqi security forces, painstakingly trained and lavishly underwritten by the U.S. government, do not.

    This represents a failure of the first order. So here’s the $60 billion question: Why did such sustained U.S. efforts bear such bitter fruit? The simple answer: for a foreign occupying force to create a unified and effective army from a disunified and disaffected populace was (and remains) a fool’s errand. In reality, U.S. intervention, now as then, will serve only to aggravate that disunity, no matter what new Anbar Awakenings are attempted.

    In other words, to stabilise Iraq’s security situation, the USA (and it seems, NZ) will have to be back in there for the medium to long term (5+ years) with no viable exit strategy.

    • Yep, America the empire is crumbling and they need new cannon fodder from little hobbiton countries who still believe they are the good guys. But conspiring? Never, They would not do that to us! That’s just tinfoil hatter material!

    • Instauration 4.2

      Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Turkey and the United Arab Emirates are each participants at this “regular” meeting.
      John would find it “odd” if we didn’t follow their “involvement”;

      “However, most of New Zealand’s traditional allies were involved to some extent and it would be “odd” if New Zealand did nothing”
      http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11341434

      Well these nations have certainly been involved – ISIS is very grateful to them.

      • Colonial Rawshark 4.2.1

        Well, Qatar, UAE and Jordan are such close, longstanding allies of NZ…not

        • Instauration 4.2.1.1

          Yep – and that Saudi Arabia nation has been beheading miscreants in custody faster than any ISIS endeavour.
          Thanks for updating with Jordan.

          • Colonial Rawshark 4.2.1.1.1

            These countries buy tens of billions of USD worth of advanced arms from the US every year. That’s many times our military’s annual budget. Their bases are right nearby, their supply lines are short, it is their language and culture, they can sort ISIS out in a few months in tandem with the USA – if they wanted to. As you implied before – support for ISIS has been coming from these very same countries.

  5. framu 5

    the thing is – its such a damn stupid lie any way

    Of all the lies you could tell to hide just how much weve commited to – pretending that the meeting is the opposite of what every other single person is saying is just brain dead idiocy

    its like trying to deny the sky is blue

    • Tracey 5.1

      and 47% of the voters dont care… perhaps conscription should come back for this fight starting with the 47%

      • travellerev 5.1.1

        Don’t worry that will follow! They have to get rid of all males of the fighting fit age. before it all goes pear shaped.

        • Sabine 5.1.1.1

          are there no females in the NZ Army, and would they not die equally in any war?

          and yes, if the PM wants to be a wartime PM, he should call for a conscription with no exits for the rich and his son and daughter should go and help defeat the evil ones.

          and no I don;t know if the kids of dear leader support Daddies politics nor do I care. If Dear Leader is happy to send other peoples children to a war that he wants, than it should be all the young and able bodied or none. Not just the poverty conscripts.

          • Chooky Shark Smile 5.1.1.1.1

            +100

          • Colonial Rawshark 5.1.1.1.2

            than it should be all the young and able bodied or none. Not just the poverty *predominantly brown* conscripts.

            Just as a refinement

            • Chooky Shark Smile 5.1.1.1.2.1

              …another reason for Nanaia Mahuta to be Leader of the Labour Party

              Helen Clark did not take us into the US led Iraq war …and we should for ever be grateful to her for her courageous standing out against this illegitimate war!

              …the consequences of which are now … ISIS

              • Wayne

                She did deploy a squadron of Army Engineers to Iraq, which was announced before the war even began.

                Skillful politics by her, however.

                In fact at the same time, she also announced sending an Orion to the Gulf, a frigate to the Gulf, and the SAS to Afghanistan. It was all part of the deal she cut with the Americans around November 2002, so she could both say NZ was not part of the Iraq war, but was nevertheless being seen to do a whole of other things that were related to the war.

                And without compromising people (sources), I actually know that this was the deal that was cut.

                • One Anonymous Bloke

                  How long do you suppose before Ebola reaches ISIL, Dr. Mapp?

                • Tracey

                  an eloquent ” labour did it too” defence

                  if the defence force lied to you wayne, wouldnt you want accountability?

                • Hi Wayne,

                  Are you therefore saying that deception of the New Zealand public over putting other New Zealanders in harms way is endemic to government in this country and acceptable to all parties?

                  • Colonial Rawshark

                    NZ and the NZ power elite is an integral part of the anglo-saxon imperial framework, is my takeaway from this.

                    Nevertheless, keeping hundreds of Kiwi infantry boots far away from Iraq was a skillful move by Clark as it has become clear that the US/UK had zero idea of what they were doing in that country.

                  • Wayne

                    At the time (Dec 2002) I was impressed at Helen’s skill in achieving that deal. And her instincts on the issue were proven to be correct

                • adam

                  Corporate elects acting like the lap dogs they are – Thanks for that Wayne.

          • Draco T Bastard 5.1.1.1.3

            I think that if the politicians want to go to war then their kids are automatically conscripted at the beginning of the campaign. I suspect that we’ll see less willingness by politicians to go to war then.

          • Murray Rawshark 5.1.1.1.4

            I vote for the “none” option.

    • RedLogix 5.2

      Which kind of demonstrates that Key knows he can do anything he damn well pleases right now.

      After all – exactly who is going to hold him to account?

      Not a compliant media, not a non-existent, dysfunctional Opposition, nor any protest. National know they have at least the next one or two elections in the bag.

      Rollout the war-drums, beat the patriot marches and it’s game over. Bring on the baby-eating.

  6. BLiP 6

    John Key is keeping up his record of one lie to New Zealand each week. I’m sure there’s more but since the election we’ve been asked to believe . . .

    David Seymour did not ask for a Ministership position with the National Party

    There will be no New Zealand military intervention in Iraq, barring an unlikely United Nations Security Council mission.

    The New Zealand military personnel are just attending a regular ordinary meeting in the United States

    . . . the worrying thing is the last two. When John Key is in the shit, his lies come in clusters (cf: the GCSB fiascao) so I’m wondering now if we are about to see a flurry of lies about New Zealand participating in yet another US “crusade” to maintain the manufactured chaos in and around the oil-producing countries.

    • Tracey 6.1

      baby cheeses

      and presumably the head of our defence force is about to be sacked for lying to the pm about the meeting. I imagine there will be a press conference at lunchtime.

    • ghostwhowalksnz 6.2

      He said ‘regular meeting ‘ 13 times!

      But you wait, at some stage he will deny he ever said that.

      • Tracey 6.2.1

        people keep mishearing him, he keeps misunderstanding others, but everyone keeps their jobs.

  7. adam 7

    And Jingoism was the winner on the day.

    I always liked the XTC song War Dance – sorry at volunteer work at present and canny access the link – will later.

    I’m not surprised though, with a tanking economy. Couple this, with a strong desire to be a back as a regular member of the Anglo Saxon Brotherhood. AND BANG! Our young man and women get shot at and killed so some crackers can feel part of a global club.

  8. Tracey 8

    what happened to your other posts anthony?

    • r0b 8.1

      Sorry – not sure what you mean?

      • Tracey 8.1.1

        I thought I saw a couple of others…one about even dunne thinks key is arrogant… have I gone mad?

        • r0b 8.1.1.1

          As far as I can tell TS is displaying posts I have written correctly. I certainly haven’t written one on Dunne and Key recently. Very odd!

          • Tracey 8.1.1.1.1

            it had to happen… I guess…. I have gone mad. I did wonder at you having 2 or 3 one after the other

            • rawshark-yeshe 8.1.1.1.1.1

              @Tracey .. have a nice cuppa and a wee lie down — we need you ! 😀

              (and fwiw I read a comment yesterday on Stuff re Dunne’s pretend angst about this .. but for sure, he will be bought off again cheaply as ever.)

  9. ghostwhowalksnz 9

    This dance of the veils about a military deployment that has been decided is all because of the United Nations vote tomorrow on the membership of the Security Council. Spain Turkey and NZ are vying for two seats.

    Theres a pretense we arent going to be involved, much as Turkey is doing.

    THis is why all the lies are being told. And they arent even trying to get their story straight so even more lies have to be told.

    • Instauration 9.1

      Matthew is there every time (actually there) – all the time. UNSC membership vote updates here;

      http://www.innercitypress.com/unsc3races101514.html

      • GregJ 9.1.1

        France 24 update has New Zealand elected along with Angola, Malaysia & Venezuela. (1600 GMT)

        • Ad 9.1.1.1

          Now that Key is an international player, he will be part of the effort to remove popular democracy as the normative global system and replace it with an alignment of cruel Arab militant monarchies, superpowers, UN programmes for the poor, and energy interests. Multinational agreements other than militarily backed ones wither.

          I remember the pessimistic Shell scenario after 9/11. It was just like this.

          The post New Deal/social democrat world is now permanent, both in NZ and globally.

  10. rawshark-yeshe 10

    Re-posting this from Open Mike …

    When even Paddy Gower is saying stuff like this about Key, we are so deeply in trouble … Paddy calls Key a liar in every way without using the actual word … amazing what we have as a prime minister …

    http://www.3news.co.nz/nznews/gower-keys-claims-on-is-meeting-ridiculous-2014101610?ref=video

  11. Sable 12

    No surprises. This government and for that matter its predecessor are in the US/UK alliances back pocket. Of course they will join in the latest imperialist rampage.

  12. RedBaronCV 13

    Arrogant isn’t he. Once again he is either telling lies or he is so incompetent he has no idea what the people working for him are doing … but then refuses to sack anyone for misleading him. Doesn’t mind a few young New Zealanders dying for his golf game maybe.

    • joe90 13.1

      Tommy

      I went into a public-‘ouse to get a pint o’ beer,
      The publican ‘e up an’ sez, “We serve no red-coats here.”
      The girls be’ind the bar they laughed an’ giggled fit to die,
      I outs into the street again an’ to myself sez I:
      O it’s Tommy this, an’ Tommy that, an’ “Tommy, go away”;
      But it’s “Thank you, Mister Atkins”, when the band begins to play,
      The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play,
      O it’s “Thank you, Mister Atkins”, when the band begins to play.

      I went into a theatre as sober as could be,
      They gave a drunk civilian room, but ‘adn’t none for me;
      They sent me to the gallery or round the music-‘alls,
      But when it comes to fightin’, Lord! they’ll shove me in the stalls!
      For it’s Tommy this, an’ Tommy that, an’ “Tommy, wait outside”;
      But it’s “Special train for Atkins” when the trooper’s on the tide,
      The troopship’s on the tide, my boys, the troopship’s on the tide,
      O it’s “Special train for Atkins” when the trooper’s on the tide.

      Yes, makin’ mock o’ uniforms that guard you while you sleep
      Is cheaper than them uniforms, an’ they’re starvation cheap;
      An’ hustlin’ drunken soldiers when they’re goin’ large a bit
      Is five times better business than paradin’ in full kit.
      Then it’s Tommy this, an’ Tommy that, an’ “Tommy, ‘ow’s yer soul?”
      But it’s “Thin red line of ‘eroes” when the drums begin to roll,
      The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
      O it’s “Thin red line of ‘eroes” when the drums begin to roll.

      We aren’t no thin red ‘eroes, nor we aren’t no blackguards too,
      But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you;
      An’ if sometimes our conduck isn’t all your fancy paints,
      Why, single men in barricks don’t grow into plaster saints;
      While it’s Tommy this, an’ Tommy that, an’ “Tommy, fall be’ind”,
      But it’s “Please to walk in front, sir”, when there’s trouble in the wind,
      There’s trouble in the wind, my boys, there’s trouble in the wind,
      O it’s “Please to walk in front, sir”, when there’s trouble in the wind.

      You talk o’ better food for us, an’ schools, an’ fires, an’ all:
      We’ll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational.
      Don’t mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face
      The Widow’s Uniform is not the soldier-man’s disgrace.
      For it’s Tommy this, an’ Tommy that, an’ “Chuck him out, the brute!”
      But it’s “Saviour of ‘is country” when the guns begin to shoot;
      An’ it’s Tommy this, an’ Tommy that, an’ anything you please;
      An’ Tommy ain’t a bloomin’ fool — you bet that Tommy sees!

      Rudyard Kipling

      • AmaKiwi 13.1.1

        A previous imperial army raping and pillaging its colonies.

        Soldiers to protect NZ from foreign invasion. Yes. Sign me up.

        A friend told me he left the USA because he didn’t want his son dying for the generals: General Motors, General Electric, General Dynamics . . .

      • greywarshark 13.1.2

        Thanks joe90. Rudyard Kipling writing shows up many things about his period very sensitively.

  13. Murray Rawshark 14

    “Ahhh – so it’s the Defence Force deciding to go to war without informing the PM then is it?”

    If we had a Labour PM, I’d believe that. They’ve done it before and Nicky Hager has written a book about it.

  14. Enough is Enough 15

    Oh, war, I despise
    ‘Cause it means destruction of innocent lives
    War means tears to thousands of mothers eyes
    When their sons go off to fight and lose their lives

    I said
    War, huh good God y’all
    What is it good for?
    Absolutely nothing, just say it again
    War whoa Lord
    What is it good for?
    Absolutely nothing, listen to me
    War, it ain’t nothin’ but a heartbreak
    War, friend only to the undertaker

    Oh war, is an enemy to all mankind
    The thought of war blows my mind
    War has caused unrest within the younger generation
    Induction, then destruction who wants to die

    Read more: Edwin Starr – War Lyrics | MetroLyrics

  15. greywarshark 16

    As rich old Mr Burns in the Simpsons pronounced ‘Release the dogs’. The Defence Force is trained to defend territory and attack, like dogs. They know how to use guns, and also to put their scruples about respecting other people if they have any, in their boots as an inner sole.

    They are getting their chance to use their training, and their weapons, and learn about new weapons, and have overseas experiences.
    Which men have stated were their thoughts when they went to WW2 etc….

  16. greywarshark 18

    @ ropata mako shark 3.24
    Thank you for that Leunig.
    Thank you for that Leunig.Thank you for that Leunig.
    Thank you for that Leunig.Thank you for that Leunig.Thank you for that Leunig.
    He spoke locally a while ago. I missed it. Fat head syndrome.

  17. Scintilla 19

    My son is in Waiouru right now, training to be a soldier. He thought the army offered him free education & training, job security for a few years, a bit of “manning up” and a chance to impress his probable father-in-law.

    He still thinks that when push comes to shove he won’t be on the front lines.

    I wait in quiet despair.

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    New Zealand is demonstrating its commitment to reducing global greenhouse emissions, and supporting clean energy transition in South East Asia, through a contribution of NZ$41 million (US$25 million) in climate finance to the Asian Development Bank (ADB)-led Energy Transition Mechanism (ETM). Prime Minister Christopher Luxon and Climate Change Minister Simon Watts announced ...
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    1 week ago
  • Minister releases Fast-track stakeholder list
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  • Judicial appointments announced
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  • Education Minister heads to major teaching summit in Singapore
    Education Minister Erica Stanford will lead the New Zealand delegation at the 2024 International Summit on the Teaching Profession (ISTP) held in Singapore. The delegation includes representatives from the Post Primary Teachers’ Association (PPTA) Te Wehengarua and the New Zealand Educational Institute (NZEI) Te Riu Roa.  The summit is co-hosted ...
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  • Value of stopbank project proven during cyclone
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  • Anzac commemorations, Türkiye relationship focus of visit
    Foreign Affairs Minister Winston Peters will represent the Government at Anzac Day commemorations on the Gallipoli Peninsula next week and engage with senior representatives of the Turkish government in Istanbul.    “The Gallipoli campaign is a defining event in our history. It will be a privilege to share the occasion ...
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  • Minister to Europe for OECD meeting, Anzac Day
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  • Comprehensive Partnership the goal for NZ and the Philippines
    Prime Minister Christopher Luxon held a bilateral meeting today with the President of the Philippines, Ferdinand Marcos Jr.  The Prime Minister was accompanied by MP Paulo Garcia, the first Filipino to be elected to a legislature outside the Philippines. During today’s meeting, Prime Minister Luxon and President Marcos Jr discussed opportunities to ...
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  • Government commits $20m to Westport flood protection
    The Government has announced that $20 million in funding will be made available to Westport to fund much needed flood protection around the town. This measure will significantly improve the resilience of the community, says Local Government Minister Simeon Brown. “The Westport community has already been allocated almost $3 million ...
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    1 week ago
  • Taupō takes pole position
    The Government is proud to support the first ever Repco Supercars Championship event in Taupō as up to 70,000 motorsport fans attend the Taupō International Motorsport Park this weekend, says Economic Development Minister Melissa Lee. “Anticipation for the ITM Taupō Super400 is huge, with tickets and accommodation selling out weeks ...
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  • Cost of living support for low-income homeowners
    Local Government Minister Simeon Brown has announced an increase to the Rates Rebate Scheme, putting money back into the pockets of low-income homeowners.  “The coalition Government is committed to bringing down the cost of living for New Zealanders. That includes targeted support for those Kiwis who are doing things tough, such ...
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    1 week ago
  • Government backing mussel spat project
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  • Government focused on getting people into work
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    1 week ago
  • Clean energy key driver to reducing emissions
    The Government’s commitment to doubling New Zealand’s renewable energy capacity is backed by new data showing that clean energy has helped the country reach its lowest annual gross emissions since 1999, Climate Change Minister Simon Watts says. New Zealand’s latest Greenhouse Gas Inventory (1990-2022) published today, shows gross emissions fell ...
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    1 week ago
  • Earthquake-prone buildings review brought forward
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    1 week ago
  • Thailand and NZ to agree to Strategic Partnership
    Prime Minister Christopher Luxon and his Thai counterpart, Prime Minister Srettha Thavisin, have today agreed that New Zealand and the Kingdom of Thailand will upgrade the bilateral relationship to a Strategic Partnership by 2026. “New Zealand and Thailand have a lot to offer each other. We have a strong mutual desire to build ...
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    1 week ago
  • Government consults on extending coastal permits for ports
    RMA Reform Minister Chris Bishop and Transport Minister Simeon Brown have today announced the Coalition Government’s intention to extend port coastal permits for a further 20 years, providing port operators with certainty to continue their operations. “The introduction of the Resource Management Act in 1991 required ports to obtain coastal ...
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    1 week ago
  • Inflation coming down, but more work to do
    Today’s announcement that inflation is down to 4 per cent is encouraging news for Kiwis, but there is more work to be done - underlining the importance of the Government’s plan to get the economy back on track, acting Finance Minister Chris Bishop says. “Inflation is now at 4 per ...
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    1 week ago

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