Open mike 01/01/2023

96 comments on “Open mike 01/01/2023 ”

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1. Sacha 1

   31 December 2022 at 4:52 pm

   If you have evidence that the protestors in 2022 wanted and intended to execute MPs, then show it.

   Disinformation researchers have provided that without anyone needing to repeat violent material here. Stop flogging this dead horse.

   [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]
   

   [This is a sub-thread from here: https://thestandard.org.nz/the-standards-political-awards-for-2022/#comment-1928795. Things were going off-topic and started to derail the Post – Incognito]
   • Rosemary McDonald 1.1

     31 December 2022 at 7:55 pm

     Disinformation researchers ….

     No. No evidence. None that I have seen/heard/read. Kate 'Out damned spot!' Hannah's reckons aren't evidence.

     Show me the evidence that there was a higher proportion of protestors in Wellington with actual intent to inflict physical harm on MPs than there were in Auckland in 2012 who wished the guillotine and the blood was real.

     Show me the magic window your disinformation researchers have into peoples hearts and minds. And get them to cast the same lens over the assembled in Auckland in 2012.
     • Sacha 1.1.1

       31 December 2022 at 8:16 pm

       It's a shame you have ended up in this place. Hopefully next year offers more peace.
     • Incognito 1.1.2

       31 December 2022 at 9:33 pm

       You only accept research when it suits your narrative, as your comment @ 7.1.1.1.1 and the one above @ 7.1.1 clearly show.

       You reject the research by a group of NZ scientists because you don’t like their conclusions.

       How did they get “the magic window [… ]into peoples hearts and minds” [sic], you ask.

       Here is the answer:

       In line with the increasing spread of mis- and disinformation, the number of product and platform surfaces studied by TDP [The Disinformation Project] has continued to expand. We currently focus on, in no particular order, Telegram, Facebook Pages, Groups, public posts on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, and any sign-posted content on the.nz ccTLD, other websites, or on platforms like Rumble, Odysee, Gab, and Gettr. The study of mis- and disinformation provenance, production and propagation across these platform and product ecologies is conducted daily, since September 2021.

       https://thedisinfoproject.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/The-murmuration-of-information-disorders-May-2022-Report-FULL-VERSION.pdf

       You constructed a strawman and fake equivalence with 2012 protests and demand impossible evidence. You make absurd requests for evidence and selectively accept and reject evidence based on your bias and prejudice. You are acting as a diversion troll.
       • Rosemary McDonald 1.1.2.1

         1 January 2023 at 11:45 am

         …research by a group of NZ scientists

         Is putting together a selection of mainstream media articles and oldish academic texts 'research'? I read that particular piece of 'work' when it first came out and failed to find much in the way of actual evidence that proves that the anti mandate protestors in Wellington were almost universally weak-minded victims of of mis/dis or mal information promulgated by far right, fascist, misogynist, racist anti- Semites.

         These 'scientists' completely failed to address any of the claims by many of the Wellington protestors that the Pfizer product had caused serious injuries and in some cases deaths.

         Any fuckwit, (stepping away from the propaganda machine for a minute or two) would see that there is something not quite adding up when amidst the piled up corpses and the horrorshow that was the hospitals in mid 2021 health authorities and governments in many western countries had to bribe or coerce the population to take the life saving shiny new 'vaccines'.

         Yes…many rushed to roll up their sleeves initially…but the enthusiasm waned….as did the efficacy of these shiny new products. And when there is active censorship of doctors speaking publicly of side effects…

         …one really needs to listen to the whole piece.

         [one week starter ban, full moderation note below – weka]
         • joe90 1.1.2.1.1

           1 January 2023 at 12:04 pm

           And when there is active censorship of doctors speaking publicly of side effects…

           yeah nah

           //

           because of the statement made by AHPRA that doctors shouldn't say anything that was going to impede the government's vaccine roll out and they took that to mean not to publicly raise their concerns
           • Rosemary McDonald 1.1.2.1.1.1

             1 January 2023 at 12:16 pm

             Ah. So. The silly doctors misunderstood the instructions from their governing body?

             It can be difficult. I get that. Acknowledging that there are serious side effects from a product without actually putting folks off risking said serious side effects from that product.

             Informed consent…a balancing act for sure.

             A pity about the mandates that forced folk to risk the product despite knowing the risks of serious adverse effects. Or to have another shot after suffering adverse effects from the first.

             https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-delta-outbreak-man-fights-for-vaccine-exemption-after-terrible-eight-weeks-after-first-dose/PZZMFQOP3IM2MGMW3LTHM7A4P4/

             https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/127779571/auckland-teen-denied-covid-vaccine-exemption-despite-reaction-rare-disorder?rm=a&cx_rm-ctrl=true

             https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/127291645/i-feel-absolutely-worthless-chronic-fatigue-sufferers-cant-get-covid19-vaccine-exemption-despite-expert-support?rm=a
             • Shanreagh …

               1 January 2023 at 1:34 pm

               Why is this stuff worthy of being relitigated please?

               Trying again now is not going to change hearts and minds for the majority about the efficacy of the vaccine, the need to have acted in ways we had never envisaged because of the pandemic, the frightening impact of disinformation largely emanating from the USA and eagerly grabbed by VFF and Counterspin and promulgated, the sad, in more ways than one, misguided occupation at Parliament.

               Now we are in a reflecting or learning mode not a relitigating mode.

               Learning means that are there things we could/should have done better and a number were canvassed on TS after the occupation had ended and from my recollection ranged from 'following the money' for VFF and Counterspin to see the sources so as to be able to track these should a similar occurrence arise, better comms from NZ Govt/Police, better education for our children particularly in learning how to critique information, civics etc.

               If you go back to that time you will see any number of thoughtful suggestions.

               As writers and readers we are better placed now to reflect and move forward. I am sure there will be any number of studies on aspects such as policing, awareness by our general populace on what is mis- or dis- information while preserving an ability to question.

               My biggest takeaway from the sign, along with others, used to introduce the year past is the egregious and painful grammar. If anything summed up, in a sign for a pedant like me, the strange nature of protest and some of the beliefs (magnets, tracking devices etc) it is this sign. Complete with mixed up tenses and 'poop' (in my circles still a US word)

               'We didn't fling any……..

               What we don't need is a re-run of the same arguments from that time, with no reflection.

               Please.
               • Andy …

                 1 January 2023 at 2:21 pm

                 Thanks Rosemary McDonald for a reasoned response. It's sad that a post well reference by MSM links gets dismissed as "conspiracy theory" in these parts

                 it doesn't bode well for 2023

                 [Oh dear, the first day on the NY and you have already broken your own resolution. Remember that you left the site of your own volition (https://thestandard.org.nz/daily-review-08-12-2022/#comment-1925201)? I fully expected you would renege on your promise. You have a bad history of too many Mod notes and bans. You are now officially banned until further notice – Incognito]
                 • Incognito …

                   1 January 2023 at 2:50 pm

                   Mod note
               • Sacha …

                 1 January 2023 at 2:50 pm

                 Why is this stuff worthy of being relitigated please?

                 Quite. Might be handy to consider a notion of vexatious commenter..
             • Incognito …

               1 January 2023 at 1:59 pm

               And again, you are moving the goal posts to suit your wider conspiracy narrative. Health workers are not immune to conspiracy theories, as the recent unbelievably sad story about the blood transfusion of a baby because of major surgery has shown.
             • weka …

               23 January 2023 at 10:10 pm

               Banned until post-election (14/11/23) for ignoring moderation.

               see https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-01-01-2023/#comment-1928867
         • weka 1.1.2.1.2

           1 January 2023 at 1:31 pm

           Moderation comment.

           In the spirit of starting the year as I mean to go on, I’m putting a stop to your pattern of behaviour, which I will explain below. Indefinite ban, with no warning because I don’t want my holiday time wasted on chasing you up.

           I disagree that you are trolling (in the sense of intentionally winding people up), but I can see why it comes across that way. I think the problem here is partly your argument style, but also your unwillingness to slow down and learn what is needed in terms of argument, evidence and linking.

           I want to be very clear here that in moderating I don’t care about the content of your argument. I’m ok with people arguing all sorts of things, so long as 1) they can back up claims of fact and 2) they can make an actual argument. In fact, I want you to up your game, so that the counter culture argument here can be coherent and useful to the debate.

           I also care that these conversations tie everyone up in knots and don’t go anywhere.

           The problems I see and am moderating you for are:

           1. Not defending your argument or providing evidence when asked.

           Specifically, as an example, you compared a 2012 left wing protest against Nact policies, that used political theatre that included mock guillotines, with the Feb 2022 occupation of parliament grounds that included people making death threats to MPs. The argument appears to be that the 2012 protests were similar to the 2022 ones. You don't explain but the implication is that the 2012 protestors made death threats.

           I’m not going to let you comment further on this site until you back that up with evidence (you’ve been asked once in a comment, and you didn’t, now it’s mandatory). Or you can retract it, apologise for wasting my moderator time and misleading the commentariat.

           If you didn’t mean to imply that, then you can restate, clearly, why you are comparing the two protests. By clear I mean explain it so everyone will understand (your usual rhetorical style won’t work).

           I will likewise find the evidence of death threats made by the freedom protestors in 2022.

           2. Strawman arguments via hyperbole. You said,

           I read that particular piece of 'work' when it first came out and failed to find much in the way of actual evidence that proves that the anti mandate protestors in Wellington were almost universally weak-minded victims of of mis/dis or mal information promulgated by far right, fascist, misogynist, racist anti- Semites.

           My emphasis

           But no-one that I’ve seen has claimed that the freedom protestors were “almost universally weak-minded victims of of mis/dis or mal information promulgated by far right, fascist, misogynist, racist anti- Semites.”

           That you have said this makes me realise you have a profound lack of understanding of what the argument is here. You misrepresent the argument, wilfully imo (this is the hyperbole), and it breaks the debate because then people have to stop and correct you and you usually don't respond to that.

           3. info flooding with youtubes and links instead of using them to support the argument you are making in your own words.

           I've explained this to you too many times to go into again here, but the gist is:

           1. make your argument
           2. back up specific points with quotes AND links
           3. if linking to audio or video, provide a timestamp AND make it clear how it is relevant.

           I'm putting you on the ban list for a week, because I honestly cannot be bothered with the aggravation. When you come back I will need to see a response to the first point before you can comment here again. If you are unclear on anything, please ask.
         • Incognito 1.1.2.1.3

           1 January 2023 at 1:52 pm

           [Edit: I’d written the following reply to Rosemary McDonald before weka jumped in and while I was making lunch. Although it is not fair to reply to a commenter who cannot reply because of a ban I’m not deleting my reply and post it anyway as is, mainly for future (moderation) reference – Incognito]

           And again, your narrative is full of BS assertions. SSDD.

           … [the research] failed to find much in the way of actual evidence that proves that the anti mandate protestors in Wellington were almost universally weak-minded victims of of mis/dis or mal information promulgated by far right, fascist, misogynist, racist anti- Semites. [my emphasis]

           A typical BS misrepresentation of the aims, methods, and conclusions of the research project. QED.

           … the Pfizer product had caused serious injuries and in some cases deaths.

           So far, only 2 confirmed deaths in NZ, as already mentioned to you. From your link @ 7.1.1 (https://thestandard.org.nz/the-standards-political-awards-for-2022/#comment-1928795):

           More than 64 million vaccine doses have been administered across the country, as of November 16, and since December 2021 people injured by one have been able to make a claim for compensation through the vaccine claims scheme.

           A Services Australia spokesperson said as of November 23, the department has received 3100 applications, and 79 have been approved for claims totalling $3.9 million.

           That is 0.0048 % and 0.00012 %, respectively.

           Scare quotes don’t add any weight or value to your BS narrative. On the other hand, they just say much about you and your motivations.

           Vaccine efficacy waned for a number of reasons and a crucial one was the spread of new variants.

           There was no bribery in NZ to take up the vaccine unless you’re referring to free lollies at some vaccination places.

           The alleged censorship of doctors and other health practitioners is another favourite conspiracy theory parroted by folks in rabbit holes. AFAIK, in NZ none was censored for speaking publically about side effects as such. This is, of course, absurd nonsense because doctors are expected to warn people about potential side effects, it is part of their job & duty. However, professional bodies such as the Medical Council of New Zealand did take action against a few of their peers for spreading mis- and dis-information about the Covid-19 vaccine(s). In addition, NZ Health (MoH) did officially warn people about potential side effects and warning signs – you can still find that information on the official websites, of course. Your accusations are untenable, as usual.

           You have again successfully derailed a Post and discussion thread with your ignorant and misleading conspiracy nonsense, which is why I’ve moved this sub-thread to OM.
2. Stephen D 2

   1 January 2023 at 8:50 am

   From Tracy Watkins in Stuff this morning.

   [unlinked quote deleted]

   My irony meter went off the scale. Who is it that promotes soundbites, cheap shots, and populism. Why, journalists of course. Ms Watkins needs to look much closer to home.
   • dvT 2.1

     1 January 2023 at 9:05 am

     Sorta sounds like a soundbite
   • Tony Veitch 2.2

     1 January 2023 at 9:34 am

     That we have a serious conversation about this country’s future,

     Any 'serious' conversation about this country's future would, by definition, exclude the Natz and probably Act as well, for both these parties think short term.
     • MickeyBoyle 2.2.1

       1 January 2023 at 9:39 am

       Come on… and the left doesn't?

       Whether you like it or not roughly 50% of this country are center right voters. You need to understand why that is and ensure that you're speaking to these kiwis too. That's how you make progress, you take as many people with you as possible.
       • Stephen D 2.2.1.1

         1 January 2023 at 10:01 am

         Recent history proves that the left does think longer term.

         Think Kiwibank, Kiwi Saver, 3 Waters, RMA. Think flags, golf with Obama. Ridiculous roads.
         • alwyn 2.2.1.1.1

           1 January 2023 at 11:13 am

           I think that the current leftie lot in the Beehive think very, very long term.

           Remember their major policy at the 2017 election? Kiwibuild. 100,000 houses to be built.

           When will that be done? It the case of Kiwibuild I suspect that the completion date is unlikely to be before 2500 AD.

           That certainly qualifies as long term doesn't it?
           • Incognito 2.2.1.1.1.1

             1 January 2023 at 11:42 am

             As with so many trolls, your short memory is not suited to trolling conversations about long-term views and future planning.

             https://www.beehive.govt.nz/release/government-resets-kiwibuild-help-more-new-zealanders-home-ownership [4 September 2019]
         • x Socialist 2.2.1.1.2

           1 January 2023 at 12:46 pm

           ''Recent history proves that the left does think longer term.''

           3 Waters – the cost benefit analysis?

           The cons:

           1- Racial strife.

           2- Reinterpretation of what democracy means.

           3- Huge bureaucracy.

           4- General lack of public understanding about what Three Waters is, and how it will operate.

           5- Stripping of ratepayer assets.

           The Pros:

           Bloody good water Infrastructure nationwide?

           Heaps of jobs over 30 years? (6-9 thousand jobs over 30years.) I don't know how that figure is arrived at.

           https://www.threewaters.govt.nz/how-will-three-waters-affect-me/workforce/#:~:text=Three%20Waters%20reform%20is%20a,over%20the%20next%2030%20years.

           Long term thinking does not necessarily equate with better outcomes, or superiority over short term goals and aspirations.
           • tinderdry6 2.2.1.1.2.1

             1 January 2023 at 4:44 pm

             "Long term thinking does not necessarily equate with better outcomes, or superiority over short term goals and aspirations."

             That depends on what you're trying to achieve, and how well it is implemented.

             3Waters was a dog from the beginning. But even if it was the greatest idea in history, it has been so poorly executed (from the infantile advertising to the tawdry attempt by the Minister to entrench public ownership) that public confidence has well and truly evaporated.
       • DB Brown 2.2.1.2

         1 January 2023 at 10:35 am

         Absolutely Mickey.

         Centrists understand that ideally left and right learn from the other and grow together. While the fringe accuse them of mediocrity, centrism is the solution to to and fro.

         We also need effective centrists. Social democrats not bloody neo-liberals. Nothing wrong with capitalism but not at the expense of others or the environment.

         Long term thinking requires the place still functions long term, ideally.
     • x Socialist 2.2.2

       1 January 2023 at 10:15 am

       Tony, it's now 2023. Take your Right eye patch off and get a full take on what's happening.

       What's happening?

       An underwhelming political Right, apart from ACT, is consigning the Left to the knackers yard later on this year. Because like you, Labour refuses to look at the full picture. All Labour sees is the Calvary Hill they are prepared to die on. You may be right about National not being long term thinkers. But the way Labour is going about things doesn't amount to anything better in my opinion.
       • millsy 2.2.2.1

         1 January 2023 at 12:30 pm

         And with that, will come the greatest reduction in wages, conditions and general living standards in history.

         National and ACT belive that wages are too high, and that workers in this country have had it too good for too long. For starters, ACT want to freeze the minium wage for 3 years, while allowing landlords to up their rent bascially when they like. Seymour sees public holidays as fascist, and wants to get rid of them, etc.

         And you clearly support this garbage.
         • x Socialist 2.2.2.1.1

           1 January 2023 at 12:58 pm

           Well, Millsy, if that's the case, Labour better pull finger this year if they want a chance at election time. That's what many people can't get their heads around. The public has sent Labour a clear message of what they don't want. Labour isn't listening ( as of present). You need to ask yourself why. Labour's actions go against any political instincts aimed at survival.

           I believe I've worked out why Labour appears hamstrung. And will be voting ACT accordingly, as I'd guess many swing voters are.
           • millsy 2.2.2.1.1.1

             1 January 2023 at 1:16 pm

             Why vote ACT? Do you hate workers havi g high wages? Do you hate public holidays or welfare benefits? Do you resent people having free healthcare?
             • KJT …

               1 January 2023 at 1:50 pm

               A sulutary lesson has just come from the UK about the effects of ACT type policies.
               If you want a functional country, don’t vote ACT

               ACT rely on cognitive dissonance and ignorance.
             • x Socialist …

               1 January 2023 at 1:53 pm

               I'm voting ACT for one reason only – they support our present democratic process. A country divided along racial lines using a reinterpretation of what democracy entails in a new nationhood order is not for most New Zealanders I would like to believe? If you can't learn for South Africa, the Gaza Strip, Rhodesia, Mauritius and other countries divided, then what Labour has been promoting will eventually come to pass regardless of who is in power.
               • millsy …

                 1 January 2023 at 1:57 pm

                 Cut the wages of the workers at the local supermarket to own the Maori?
               • KJT …

                 1 January 2023 at 2:35 pm

                 Have you ever seen ACT, opposing the wealthy buying political parties?

                 You know, ‘Democracy’!

                 Thought not!
               • Sacha …

                 1 January 2023 at 2:56 pm

                 a reinterpretation of what democracy entails

                 Honouring a founding Treaty, you say
                 • x Socialist …

                   1 January 2023 at 3:32 pm

                   Which Treaty? What Interpretation? The treaty needs to go. It's not signed by all tribes. Some Maori don't recognise the Treaty. And others adhere to the ''Confederation of Chiefs of the United Tribes of New Zealand.'' That was annexed by the TOW.

                   Best we have a new constitution that's not race based. If not that, then next best thing by far is the status quo.
                   • solkta …

                     1 January 2023 at 3:40 pm

                     And others adhere to the ''Confederation of Chiefs of the United Tribes of New Zealand.'' That was annexed by the TOW.

                     FFS go away and learn something.
                   • x Socialist …

                     1 January 2023 at 3:46 pm

                     ''FFS go away and learn something.''

                     The floor is yours Solkta. Educate me. I’m sure all other posters believe they know all that needs to be known.
                   • Sacha …

                     1 January 2023 at 9:40 pm

                     So now we're Treatytrolling? Cmon
               • mikesh …

                 1 January 2023 at 3:28 pm

                 One of the problems with democracy is the phenomenon known as "the tyranny of the majority". Because of this I think the views of minority groups – perhaps racial, cultural or religious – where they are in conflict with the majority should perhaps given more weight than mere numbers might suggest.
                 • x Socialist …

                   1 January 2023 at 3:34 pm

                   Tyranny of the majority…or the minority?
                   • Shanreagh …

                     1 January 2023 at 4:48 pm

                     The context is clear and well explained by Mikesh.

                     The tyranny of the majority can mean that minorities get overlooked, as Mikesh says but the flipside is that the rights of the minorities are more likely to be addressed by the same 'tyrannical' majority once attention is drawn to them.

                     Simplifying things a little.
                   • x Socialist …

                     1 January 2023 at 6:03 pm

                     My apologies for not being clearer.

                     I put it to you at the present time we have a tyranny of the minority over the majority, and not the other way around.

                     Read the first paragraph of this preview in the link to understand what I mean.

                     https://www.jstor.org/stable/20024687
                   • weka []

                     1 January 2023 at 6:18 pm

                     which minorities specifically in NZ do you believe dominate, tyranise, or terrorise the majority?

                     Staub is wrong btw, democracy isn’t defined as majority rules.

                     Prevalent day-to-day decision making of democracies is the majority rule,[3][4] though other decision making approaches like supermajority and consensus have also been integral to democracies

                     https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy

                     Consensus democracy, consensus politics or consensualism is the application of consensus decision-making to the process of legislation in a democracy. It is characterized by a decision-making structure that involves and takes into account as broad a range of opinions as possible, as opposed to systems where minority opinions can potentially be ignored by vote-winning majorities

                     https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consensus_democracy

                     My laptop’s dictionary definition doesn’t say anything about majority rules either,

                     a system of government by the whole population or all the eligible members of a state, typically through elected representatives
                   • Cricklewood …

                     1 January 2023 at 6:10 pm

                     Does Winston count as the tyranny of the minority?
                   • x Socialist …

                     1 January 2023 at 6:12 pm

                     I don't know Cricklewood. What do you think?
                   • Cricklewood []

                     1 January 2023 at 6:34 pm

                     For me yes, it's a flaw in the Mmp system that a party holding 5 percent of the vote can hold a vastly disproportionate influence when the conditions are right.
                   • x Socialist …

                     1 January 2023 at 7:21 pm

                     @ Weka

                     Which minorities specifically in NZ do you believe dominate, tyranise, or terrorise the majority?

                     Maori.

                     ''Staub is wrong btw, democracy isn’t defined as majority rules.''

                     I don't think he is. He may be defining democracy as the average man understands it- a simplistic overall view. But I understand your point. To repeat one of your definitions.

                     ''A system of government by the whole population or all the eligible members of a state, typically through elected representatives.''

                     Therefore by that definition Maori should have a say in our democracy and they do. Maori only council seats. Special funding. Priority in our medical system over other races in some cases, and special cultural reports for Maori criminals. All permissible given the definitions you and others have provided.

                     The question is: When do we cross that invisible line into minority tyranny under the guise of democracy? When Maori just demand, demand and demand? I believe we have crossed that line and Labour hasn't the guts to say ''enough is enough, you are affecting other members of society with your behaviour and demands. I'm hoping ACT will say that to their faces ( good luck with that David)

                     Then we have the Maori elites attitude towards democracy. They love it when it's working in their favour. In fact they have made tremendous strides in recent years. But they know nothing beats outright control. That's why Willie Jackson is tearing the last of his hair out. He's stuck in the middle between extreme Maori demands, and knowing what his majority European caucus will accept.

                     If we go back to one of your definitions regarding democracy we have this part:

                     ''typically through elected representatives.''

                     Maori can bypass that. They don't have to be elected to council in a general vote. Seats are guaranteed around the council table for Maori wards.
                   • weka []

                     1 January 2023 at 9:33 pm

                     Maori can bypass that. They don't have to be elected to council in a general vote. Seats are guaranteed around the council table for Maori wards.

                     who choose which Māori take the Māori ward positions?

                     what process was used to decide to have a Māori ward?

                     I will answer that. The process used is the majority rules democracy you espouse. Democratically elected councils vote to have a Māori ward. People on the Māori roll can then vote in democratic elections for candidates in that Māori ward. If they are on the Māori roll they can’t vote in the general ward.

                     Really can’t see the problem here (and you certainly haven’t explained how it’s a problem), sounds democratic to me.

                     https://www.votelocal.co.nz/maori-wards-and-constituencies/
                   • x Socialist …

                     1 January 2023 at 8:04 pm

                     @ Cricklewood.

                     Yes, I get you. Probably the best example of minority tyranny. But it's legal. That's the problem. It allows a minorities to sway the fate of a country to varying degrees. But sometimes it works out.

                     I recently attended a Winston rally. A heckler called out: '' what did you do for the country when you went with Labour? You were just a handbrake on what Labour wanted to do.

                     Winston replied: ''And what happened when the handbrake came off? ''

                     The crowd erupted.
                   • Drowsy M. Kram …

                     1 January 2023 at 8:53 pm

                     Which minorities specifically in NZ do you believe dominate, tyranise, or terrorise the majority?

                     Maori. (x Socialist @7:21 pm)

                     Are Māori really over-represented in the tyrannising and terrorising stakes? I'm sorry if that's been your experience – it's not mine.

                     In what areas might Māori "dominate" the majority, i.e. non-Māori Kiwis? Certainly not in health and wealth statistics. Māori do contribute disproportionately to the success of the All Blacks, but personally I'd opt for the significant hike in longevity and wealth that non-Māori enjoy. Are there any ACT policies acknowledging and designed to address these significant real-life disparities?

                     Tbh, given their health/wealth disadvantages, the idea that we are under the heel a dominant Māori minority makes no sense.

                     Or do you/ACT perhaps think that Māori are exploiting their disadvantages unfairly? To paraphrase Eric Blair, all Kiwis are equal, but some Kiwis are more equal than others.

                     Growth in life expectancy slows [20 April 2021]
                     The gap between Māori and non-Māori life expectancy at birth was 7.5 years for males and 7.3 years for females in 2017–2019.

                     

                     https://thespinoff.co.nz/books/19-03-2022/danyl-mclauchlan-on-too-much-money-a-book-about-what-divides-us

                     “Current debates that seek to revive animosities between ‘iwi’ vs ‘Kiwi,’ for example, are classic Cartesian devices – anachronistic, divisive colonial throwbacks.”
                   • mikesh …

                     2 January 2023 at 8:44 am

                     For me yes, it's a flaw in the Mmp system that a party holding 5 percent of the vote can hold a vastly disproportionate influence when the conditions are right.

                     It wasn't just 5% of the vote. I'm pretty sure the National MPs would also have voted against CGT.
               • Robert Guyton …

                 1 January 2023 at 6:45 pm

                 You are voting ACT because you have been voting ACT. This is not a change in your behaviour, as you pretend, but more of the same. Question: have you stood as an ACT candidate in the past?
                 • x Socialist …

                   1 January 2023 at 7:35 pm

                   The Great Nostradamus delves into my past. I'm a swing voter who hasn't voted for many years. I'm voting this year in what I consider the most important election in NZs history. But apparently according to the great one I have been voting ACT all along. It must be true, we live in a matrix construct that is powered by Robert's reality. Well I never. A food forester and matrix master mixed into one.
                   • Macro …

                     1 January 2023 at 9:24 pm

                     I'm a swing voter who hasn't voted for many years.

                     !!!!!!

                     How does one be a swing voter and not vote? Surely a contradiction in terms if ever there was one. You can't be a non voter and a swing voter at the same time. Either you vote or you don't vote, you can't do both.

                     And then you have the effrontery to call yourself an x Socialist – but then say you are a swing voter!

                     Obviously everything you say is just BS because you don't know what you are, or why you vote – if you ever do.
                   • Robert Guyton …

                     1 January 2023 at 9:43 pm

                     Again, have you stood as an ACT candidate in the past?
                   • x Socialist …

                     1 January 2023 at 9:55 pm

                     Ok, Marco, let's have a look. Put you right where you are wrong.

                     ''How does one be a swing voter and not vote? Surely a contradiction in terms if ever there was one. You can't be a non voter and a swing voter at the same time. Either you vote or you don't vote, you can't do both.''

                     Linear time is of the essence my friend. I said I hadn't voted for some years, that doesn't mean I haven't voted regularly in the past as a swing voter before not voting for a while.

                     ''And then you have the effrontery to call yourself an x Socialist – but then say you are a swing voter!''

                     x = a value that is not yet known in maths.

                     You may remember I stated a while back that all our political parties are socialist to one degree or another. So having in reality voted socialism all my life ( if you accept my definition) the unknown is what socialist party would I be voting for this time around after my hiatus.

                     ''Obviously everything you say is just BS because you don't know what you are, or why you vote – if you ever do.''

                     That's a little hurtful. However, its Jan 1 and I predict it's going to be a shit year for you. So, you get a free pass. Happy New Year Marco.

                     [There we go again:

                     x = a value that is not yet known in maths.

                     Two weeks ago, I pulled you up for the exact same BS lie and sucking up too much oxygen here and giving Mods and commenters heaps of BS to shovel aside (https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-18-12-2022/#comment-1926967). To allow others to have genuine constructive debate here you are moved aside again for one week only, but expect much longer times in the near (!) future – Incognito]
                   • Incognito []

                     1 January 2023 at 10:13 pm

                     Mod note
                   • x Socialist …

                     1 January 2023 at 10:03 pm

                     Again, have you stood as an ACT candidate in the past?

                     No, Robert. I have never been an ACT candidate in the past. Unlike you, I have no desire for public office. The thought mortifies me. Too much hui, not enough doey, and too much crawling.
                   • solkta …

                     1 January 2023 at 10:11 pm

                     I'm a pineapple, if you accept my definition.
           • Patricia Bremner 2.2.2.1.1.2

             1 January 2023 at 6:00 pm

             Yes I picked where you were bound weeks ago. X says it all.
             • x Socialist …

               1 January 2023 at 6:10 pm

               Oh, don't exaggerate. I publicly stated months ago I would be voting ACT for the same reason I have stated today.
               • Patricia Bremner …

                 1 January 2023 at 6:37 pm

                 "Tis you who exaggerates by using the word Socialist in such a cavalier fashion." If you really believed in community good, you would not vote Act. But you will do what you deem "Right" because it appears you don't like some having a say in things. We are no longer “First past the post Democracy” having opted for MMP.
                 Act is here courtesy of MMP and a “Cup of Tea”. lol which was a rort on your precious Democracy.
                 • x Socialist …

                   1 January 2023 at 7:44 pm

                   "Tis you who exaggerates by using the word Socialist in such a cavalier fashion.'

                   Eh? Aren't we talking about me being a supposedly ACT sycophant?
                   • Patricia Bremner …

                     1 January 2023 at 8:47 pm

                     X supporting David and Act for Democracy. Yet you don't see the flaw in that argument? Supposedly. Enough already.
                 • x Socialist …

                   1 January 2023 at 9:34 pm

                   Talking of democracy. What do you think these people think of democracy?

                   https://www.trtworld.com/europe/greece-rescues-340-after-refugee-boat-capsizes-off-crete-118350

                   The trouble with you and many others of your liberal ilk, is you take your life for granted. I must admit I had a similar attitude until I went overseas. Talk about a shock to the system.

                   Now, I can understand you not caring about democracy -most Kiwis don't. What I can't forgive is the liberal left trying to destroy our Western life style through education, gender/ feminism, indigenous rights and the promotion of tribalism, skewered journalism, anti Christianity…you name it. Anything but Western traditions.

                   This upcoming election is going to become very nasty. It may make the Springbok tour protests look like a kids event.

                   When you become scared to go out your front door – don't forget – you helped NZ ( whoops, Aotearoa) along this path to anarchy.
                   • weka …

                     1 January 2023 at 9:38 pm

                     Feminism is a Western tradition. Wtf are you on about?

                     Now, I can understand you not caring about democracy -most Kiwis don't.

                     Stop trolling. Making shit up about other commenter's beliefs is a quick way to a ban.
                   • joe90 …

                     1 January 2023 at 9:43 pm

                     Anything but Western traditions.

                     The great replacement, right?
     • Anker 2.2.3

       2 January 2023 at 9:50 am

       "Any serious conversation about this country's future would,by definition , exclude the. Natz and probably Act as well"

       Are you joking Tony V? You do know that current polling shows that a near majority of voters (pretty sure that is a fact, but its from my memory) support these two parties. You want to exclude these democratically elected representatives from the debate? Really?
   • weka 2.3

     1 January 2023 at 10:51 am

     your unlinked quote has been deleted. You can repost it with the link. I think you've been here long enough to understand this is a requirement.
   • Stephen D 2.4

     1 January 2023 at 11:37 am

     Ooops.

     Link attached.

     https://i.stuff.co.nz/opinion/300776308/a-new-year-how-about-we-start-talking-about-a-new-future
3. joe90 3

   1 January 2023 at 10:29 am

   Historian Timothy Snyder on Trump and The Big Lie.

   What did Trump know, and when did he lie about it? How did his Big Lie lead to specific actions to overturn and election and bring down the American system? What did the coup attempt of 2020-2021 look like from within the Trump administration itself?

   Thanks to the excellent "Final Report of the Select Committee to Investigate the January 6th Attack on the United States Capitol," we now know the answers to these and many other questions. I provide here just the briefest of summaries of the report’s recounting of the events of November 2020-January 2021.

   https://snyder.substack.com/p/january-6-the-facts?
   • joe90 3.1

     1 January 2023 at 1:36 pm

     Once an organised criminal..

     https://twitter.com/HelenKennedy/status/1607958025221857281
     • Macro 3.1.1

       1 January 2023 at 2:00 pm

       Talking of Big Lies .. from the ex-Potus who told the mostest. (30,000 and counting)

       "The unselect committee [sic] did not produce a single shred of evidence that I in any way intended or wanted violence at our Capitol," Trump said of the voluminous report in a video posted to Truth Social. "The evidence does not exist because the claim is baseless and a monstrous lie."

       How can anyone can believe anything that man says? And yet 1/3 of Repugnants seem to continue to do so.
4. joe90 4

   1 January 2023 at 11:25 am

   Poots decrees personnel involved in the invasion of Ukraine will pay no income tax.

   He's legalised looting, too.

   Soldiers, police, members of the security services and other state employees serving in the four regions no longer had to supply information on “their income, their expenditure, their assets”, the decree said.

   The decree also granted them the right to receive “rewards and gifts” if they were of “a humanitarian character” and received as part of the military operation in Ukraine.

   It applies to the partners and children of those serving, and is back-dated to February 24 2022 – the date Russia invaded Ukraine.

   https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2022/dec/31/russia-ukraine-war-live-ukraine-troops-fighting-fiercest-battles-in-donbas-says-zelenskiy?
   • joe90 4.1

     1 January 2023 at 3:38 pm

     Terror state Russia is going all-in with its barbarism and brutality.

     No talks, it's win-or-lose.

     https://twitter.com/steven_pifer/status/1607883452053073920

     https://www.polskieradio.pl/395/9766/Artykul/3093798,russia-to-pursue-military-campaign-in-ukraine-until-demands-are-met-lavrov
   • Joe90 4.2

     1 January 2023 at 5:42 pm

     Zelenskyy's New Year speech. Watch the whole thing.

     https://twitter.com/walter_report/status/1609325115585728513
   • weston 4.3

     1 January 2023 at 8:23 pm

     I wouldnt trust the pages of The Guardian to wrap my fish an chips in !! All too obviously at the behest of the UK state security apparatus its the 'poor Ukraine ' evil Russians from start to finish totally biased reporting , the sort of reporting you'd expect from a country at war with another country , is the UK at war with Russia ?
5. joe90 5

   1 January 2023 at 12:30 pm

   
   • Graeme 5.1

     1 January 2023 at 1:33 pm

     Fuck the broom, this is more the business

     
6. Stephen D 6

   1 January 2023 at 4:08 pm

   Has anyone read the John Key article in today’s Herald? I’m intrigued to see how sycophant it is.
   • x Socialist 6.1

     1 January 2023 at 4:21 pm

     I can post the article if the mods allow it? But, yeah, it’s a little crawly. He makes no bones about being a huge fan of China.
     • Cricklewood 6.1.1

       1 January 2023 at 6:40 pm

       Key is a money man, it's driven his success his whole life. From that perspective his comments make a huge amount of sense. We don't have free trade with the USA or Europe and it seems unlikely we'll ever hit a deal done. Hence China is integral to NZs economic success.

       If the USA or Europe really wanted to walk the talk we would have had an equivalent free trade deal years ago.
       • Belladonna 6.1.1.1

         1 January 2023 at 7:54 pm

         I thought it was interesting – given his business perspective – and the understanding that China is a hugely important market to NZ.
         He's far less alarmist about the potential for China to invade Taiwan than many other commentators (and specifically ties this 'China attack risk' to Trump)

         "New Zealand needs to judge for itself how credible Trump’s and others’ views of China’s military ambitions are, and how much of Trump’s rhetoric rests in his domestic political imperatives and reluctance to accept the club of superpowers may be about to have more than one member."

         He's realistic about the internal direction China (aka Xi) is taking – into social control, and greater party control over the economy. China has no interest in becoming like the West.

         From the ecological perspective – this seems to be the greatest risk to me.

         For starters, China still has hundreds of millions of people it needs to move from the rural countryside to cities and towns and with this urbanisation will come massive economic stimulation.

         China is only a tiny way through the infrastructure deficit it needs to complete from roads to energy, and airports to railways.

         That’s before the trillion-plus dollars to be spent on the Belt and Road programme which looks to connect China with Europe, like a modern version of the old Silk Road.

         I don't think that Key is wrong. But, how is any of this compatible with ambitions to reign in climate-change emissions?

         China’s middle class is nascent. In time they will become the largest source of tourists in the world, the biggest buyers of luxury goods, and the largest consumers of commodities anywhere.

         I did link earlier – but just belt and braces

         https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/sir-john-key-we-need-to-craft-our-own-view-of-china-using-its-past-and-potential-to-guide-us/PSDICCQP3FBR7O56CRWXKLN2S4/
     • Leighton 6.1.2

       1 January 2023 at 8:29 pm

       I'm more interested in why are these articles being written? Every time JK pops up in public lately it seems to involve excessive fawning over China. It isn't something he did a lot during his time in politics, so why is he getting on the wagon now? Is he on somebody's payroll, and if so who?
       • x Socialist 6.1.2.1

         1 January 2023 at 8:54 pm

         Well, we have no proof, but I bet China would pay a pretty penny for high status Western PR people. If Jacinda goes down a similar route after leaving office, we will have a fire to attach to the smoke.
       • joe90 6.1.2.2

         1 January 2023 at 9:31 pm

         Mr Fiddy…

         https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/50_Cent_Party
   • Belladonna 6.2

     1 January 2023 at 7:45 pm

     Here's the link – Premium Herald – but you should be able to see it via Press Reader through your local library (yay libraries – breaking down the information barriers!)

     https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/sir-john-key-we-need-to-craft-our-own-view-of-china-using-its-past-and-potential-to-guide-us/PSDICCQP3FBR7O56CRWXKLN2S4/
7. Stephen D 7

   1 January 2023 at 5:05 pm

   So he’d roll over and be Vichy France?
8. x Socialist 8

   1 January 2023 at 6:17 pm

   Looks like it. He may even become our master in the Pacific.

   Quote from final part of the article:

   [deleted]

   [When you quote, you must link and you know this too. Weka already modded for this here today (https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-01-01-2023/#comment-1928845). This is your warning because I’m not going to waste much time on you this year – Incognito]
   • Incognito 8.1

     1 January 2023 at 6:49 pm

     Mod note
   • weka 8.2

     1 January 2023 at 9:27 pm

     you're lucky Incog got to this before I saw it, because I modded you for exactly this a mere 12 days ago and I explained why. Expect a ban if you do it again. Both Incog and I are sick of our time being sucked up by people who know better.

     .https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-20-12-2022/#comment-1927308
9. Stephen D 9

   1 January 2023 at 6:27 pm

   Given that last phrase, he has no knowledge of Chinese history. The Middle Kingdom is the land between heaven and earth. The Han are born to rule over us all.
   • mikesh 9.1

     2 January 2023 at 9:35 am

     As far as I can see there is no land "between heaven and earth". It sounds like the sort of fictional “place” to which Gulliver might have traveled.
10. Anne 10

    1 January 2023 at 7:50 pm

    Yet another off-shore entitled rich prick who thinks he can do whatever he likes and f**k the neighbours:

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/130891710/american-billionaires-controversial-nye-pyrotechnic-bonanza-starts-fire-near-queenstown
11. Morris 11

    1 January 2023 at 8:47 pm

    How classy to excuse his behaviour by bragging about his "deep and long lived social and charitable connections".

    What a tool.
12. joe90 12

    1 January 2023 at 9:58 pm

    https://twitter.com/vidtranslator/status/1607884462645288961

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