Open mike 01/03/2019

Written By: - Date published: 7:00 am, March 1st, 2019 - 250 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

250 comments on “Open mike 01/03/2019 ”

  1. “While there is a ton to dig into in terms of Cohen’s accusations against Donald Trump, perhaps the most explosive thing that Cohen said came at the very end:

    ‘Given my experience working for Mr Trump, I fear that if he loses the election in 2020, that there will never be a peaceful transition of power.’

    “That’s essentially saying, that if he loses the election, there will be a coup. There will be another declaration of national emergency. I’ve been saying on the Real News for quite some time, that I am very concerned with the agenda of this administration to go after Iran, especially in the midst of all this domestic chaos, of the possibilities of some kind of staged attack on the United States in some way or another, to help justify some sort of aggression against Iran.”

    • Wayne 1.1

      That statement does not help Cohen’s credibility.

      If Trump loses in 2020 he will depart on Jan 20, 2021 just like every other president who has finished their term.

      • AB 1.1.1

        Yes. If he is going to pull any crazy stunt it will be an attempt to postpone the 2020 election due to a national emergency. Perhaps fighting two new regime change/resource theft wars in Venezuela and Iran might constitute that emergency. But this is pretty far-fetched too.
        That’s not to say that Trump supporters aren’t armed and dangerous and if he loses in 2020 they won’t do some violent stuff. If I was Bernie or AOC I would be scared stiff of these loons right now.

        • Sam

          Seriously, you believe all that? Ask a yank they’ll probably tell you Venezuala is the 54th state of America, not because they’re pulling ya leg, but because they believe it. Forign policy is a sedative for Americans.

      • Andre 1.1.2

        I reckon it’s maybe 5% odds that sometime shortly after noon on January 20th 2021, the Secret Service agents that were helping protect him will have to suddenly turn around and physically drag him out of the White House.

      • Anne 1.1.3

        You don’t have much imagination Wayne.

        Trump could cause chaos in the gap between losing the presidency and the new president being sworn in. It’s difficult at this stage to know what form it would take, but there is no way he will go quietly and without creating huge problems.

        The best scenario would be for him to be chucked out of the role sooner, then the world can get it over and done with before the 2020 election.

        • Andre

          I reckon Pence is regularly privately telling the Creep from Queens ‘if you want a pardon you have to resign soon enough to give me a decent shot at fighting the 2020 election. Which means resign this year.’

          • Anne

            Getting chucked out before the 2020 election would be the best scenario then we would (hopefully) only have to put up with the fundamentalist nutbar, Pence for a short time and:

            normal business will resume on 21st Jan. 2021.

      • Peter 1.1.4

        And the process will be smooth without problems. Just as the departure of Rob Muldoon.

        • Anne

          Thanks for the reminder Peter. 🙂

          Muldoon caused a right rumpus didn’t he. Took NZ close to bankruptcy as a nation. In fact it was Muldoon who gave Roger Douglas and co. the excuse to go all out neoliberal.

          Reminds me… must watch that excellent TV documentory “Revolution” again:

          • Anne

            Oops ‘documentary’.

          • Nic the NZer

            A few corrections. Muldoon didn’t cause the currency crisis (country running out of foreign reserves and potentially unable to exchange currency at its fixed exchange rate). The devaluation which he refused to implement was at best going to be a temporary measure. The actual problem was the reserve bank running out of foreign exchange reserves and this being known to currency speculators and this was solved more permanently by floating the exchange rate. The main legacy of Muldoons actions is that information about the economy must now be communicated before the election. Almost none of that should be accepted as an excuse for Rogernomics.

          • KJT

            If you read Naomi Kline, Disaster Capitalism, it will give you a better idea of what went on.

            However Muldoon didn’t create the problem, it was the ones who decided to profit from the situation.

            “The country was bankrupt” was largely a myth. In fact much of Muldoons think big, earned fortunes, for subsequent private owners.

            I didn’t like him at the time, but if oil prices had continued to sky rocket, as we all thought at the time, Muldoon would have been a hero, for reducing our dependency on imported energy. A crystal ball to tell us the US was going to invade some more countries to cut oil prices, would have been good.

      • Sabine 1.1.5

        your word in goddess ears, but then how often are your right, and how much credibility do you have?

    • gsays 1.2

      That is what Bill Hicks referred to as the Gulf War distraction.

      So… business as usual for the US of A.

    • Jenny - How to get there? 1.3

      Hi Esoteric

      Your fears of fascism in America are well founded.

      But I doubt that this political change will be achieved as openly as you suggest.

      Never forget EP that fascism was achieved in Germany in the 1930s through constitutional and democratic processes. This veneer of legitimacy is what gave German fascism its extraordinary ability to command the German people to perform all sorts of outrages against their neighbours, both internal and external

      The coup will be a very American rolling one. It will happen during the presidential election itself. Which President Trump, against all liberal commentary, will again win.

      Voter suppression may play a small role but demogoguery and personal attacks and smears, and fear mongering, will again be an even bigger part of Donald Trump’s second electoral success. Claims of victimsation by the liberal establishment will echo with his support base. Chants of “Lock ‘Em Up” once aimed at Hilarly Clinton will be aimed at individuals like Robert Mueller and Occasio Cortez. On Trump’s return to the White House for a second term, even more empowered than before, the President will be in a position to actually carry out his threats to lock up his political and legal opponents.

      On the campaign trail Candidate Trump will again promise to make Mexico pay for the wall. Playing call and response to his supporters, “Who will pay for the wall?” “Mexico” will chant back his loyal supporters.

      On his return to the White House the President using his strengthened political position will no doubt us this power to impose a more rapacious and imperialist foreign policy on Mexico, (And Latin America generally). Extreme sanctions, tarriffs and even forced closure of all legitimate border crossings and trade, until Mexico and the other Latin countries agree to US terms. Yes, military invasion and war are likely to be part of this picture, Subservient Right Wing administrations in Mexico and Columbia will have little choice but to tie themselves to the US war machine, providing the US cannon fodder against their neighbours Venezuela and possibly even Cuba, in exchange for more favourable US treatment.

  2. esoteric pineapples 2

    What rarely gets mentioned when it comes to Venezuela’s oil, is that is a poorer quality oil and hard to extract. Given that it is now the focus of US desire, and the US presently is fracking its own landscape to hell to get oil, and Canada wants to turn tar sands into oil – doesn’t this suggest the supply of economically available oil is rapidly declining and finding it is becoming increasingly more risky (eg deep sea oil exploration around New Zealand). In other words, we have probably already reached “peak oil” in terms of what is economically available. Another reason that we should be rapidly converting to other energy sources.

  3. esoteric pineapples 3

    What is going on with property in New Zealand is turning into a class struggle. This shouldn’t be surprising given how much the divide between those with wealth and those without in New Zealand (relative to each other) has grown since the introduction of Neo-Liberalism in 1984. Sure, there is still the illusion is still there that we are all the same, as epitomised by a jandal-wearing multi-millionaire former Prime MInister. But people who can’t afford to rent a home, let alone buy one, aren’t feeling it.
    The issue of Capital Gains Tax could easily galvinise Generation Rent provided they were politically knowledgeable and savy enough. But a great part of the generation rent population is young, and all they have ever known is Neo-Liberalism and Neo-Liberal propoganda. And no-one is pointing out to them (in the media) that they are paying a higher percentage of their income in tax, that landlords, companies and others who have decided it is their right as a citizen of New Zealand not to have to pay tax on income. Instead, the burden of paying for health care (often for older New Zealanders who don’t a capital gains tax), education, police etc is expected to fall inordinately on the shoulders of those whose wages are the lowest which means they can never accrue the sorts of income earning assets that aren’t taxed.
    A year till the next election is probably not enough to time to get them to figure things out and start voting in large enough numbers for Labour to offset all the property owning “kiwis” who will switch their vote to National to crush any capital gains tax. Which is one reason I doubt anything but the meekest of CGT, if even that, will see the light of day in this term at least. Especially with NZ First as part of the government. However, I am not convinced that a capital gains tax will go away and it is the perfect vehicle for spotlighting to generation x and the working poor, how they are being unfairly treated.

    • mikesh 3.1

      The idea that landlords are paying less tax than workers needs to be taken with a grain of salt. Where a landlord appears to be paying little or no tax it will be because his interest bill is gobbling up all, or most, of his profit. But in that case the bank will be paying tax on the interest that it receives from him so the government will not be missing out. It’s my opinion that interest should not be deductible for tax purposes but the income tax act stipulates that it is, so the problem, if there is one, lies with that act.

      • KJT 3.1.1

        Oh. C’mon. It is the tenants that are paying the interest.

        Adding to the landlords future capital gains.

        • Herodotus

          It is also the tax payer/govt with the Accomodation supplement.
          Also those landlords who operated under a negatively geared situation were applying a business case of the justification of being “in business”,was that they existed only due to capital gains. As there was no business case that the business was a profitable trading proposition, and as such the IRD should have been targeting these cases with a capital gains, BUT there was no effort in chasing these, by either the Labour or Nat governments or the IRD.

        • Shadrach

          “It is the tenants that are paying the interest.”

          That’s like arguing employers pay their workers food bills. But then reality and yourself are only distant acquaintances.

          • Psycho Milt

            It’s not much like that at all. If you’re providing a service and you price that service to recover certain fixed external costs, you may pay the invoices for those fixed external costs but it’s your customer who’s really paying. Same as when the taxi driver tells you there’s an airport charge and that’s going to be reflected in the fare – the airport gets paid by the taxi company, but you’re still the one who’s really paying the airport charge.

            • Shadrach

              “… but it’s your customer who’s really paying.”

              I’m simply testing KJT’s logic. He claims that my tenants are paying my interest. If that is the case, then in an employment transactions, an employer is paying their employees grocery bill. I don’t actually think either is true, but let’s see whether KJT can understand.

              • KJT

                No. Your customers are paying your employees grocery bill.

                You are just the middleman.

                • Shadrach

                  My customers don’t have access to employees spending habits. They have no influence over them, he’ll they don’t even know most of them.

                  • KJT

                    Your customers are paying for your employees work, not you.

                    In fact, your customers would probably get it done cheaper and better, if they simply used the employees.

                    • Shadrach

                      My customers don’t have access to my employees bank accounts, so no, the company pays them. I’ll wreck you argument with one easy example. A customer doesn’t place any orders for 3 months. Who pays the wages during that time?

          • woodart

            well, all of multi-house owners I know put down a deposit and get tenants to effectively pay the mortgage. so that would mean that tenants are paying the interest. just like your customers of your business are paying your food bills. …but then reality and you are just shits,er, ships that pass in the night.

            • Shadrach

              I don’t have any tenants paying any money to my bank, ergo, I am paying the mortgage. The clue to your comment is the in the word ‘effectively’.

              • Sam

                A mortgage is the worse way of owning property. All a mortgage is is a scheduled paymement. Better to rent and just take the deposit and buy some REITs. REITs are legislated to pay 90% back to investors so you don’t pay the scheduled payment, you receive it. Mortgage is death, renting is freedom.

                • Shadrach

                  “A mortgage is the worse way of owning property. “

                  You can’t be serious. Unless you are cash rich, mortgages are the INLY way of owning property.

                  • Sam

                    Oh god. Delete that. Try debating a rat or something.

                    Mortgages are the worse way of owning property.

                    So you take a $1,000,000 loan in exchange the bank offers you access to there products with which to sell @$20 a pop and pay back the loan and end up paying back 2 or 3 times the principle.

                    Fuck that. I ain’t never getting on what ever ride you’re on. NEVER.

              • woodart

                so are tenants paying money into your bank , or paying you in cash ? if yes, they are paying the interest and principle for you. dont dance on the head of a pin,its tiresome and pathetic. and in the public eye, makes you look even more of a prat.

                • Shadrach

                  Gee it’s you who is dancing. I pay the mortagage. And the maintenance. My tenants pay me rent. Unless you think an employer pays his workers power bills.

  4. Ad 4

    Despite Dr Galloway’s pessimism below, there is still time for the Government to get the messaging back and save the Capital Gains Tax in some form.

    “Massey University public relations and crisis management specialist Dr Chris Galloway says this strategy has played an integral role in setting the tone for anything related to capital gains tax.

    “The one who describes the crisis at the beginning often goes on to frame the subsequent debate,” Galloway told the Herald.

    “I think the Government is in danger of losing the debate, if they haven’t already, because they haven’t come out very clearly at the beginning to frame the debate themselves.

    “They seem to have been swamped by the naysayers.”

    Whatever substance our Minister of Finance has, will be drawn in his personal framing of the debate when the Government positions announced in five weeks’ time.

    Polls are good Prime Minister: don’t do a John Key and fail to spend your hard-earned political capital.

    • Sam 4.1

      Why dont we talk about how Māori land ownership is flourishing.

    • left_forward 4.2

      Thanks ad. I’m not sure what a pr and crisis management specialists role is, but I don’t entirely agree with his comments in the Herald article. The Tax Working Party has made its recommendations, the right wingers have responded, the media has responded, and the Government in the correct order of things will now consider how to respond.

      • Sam 4.2.1

        It’s a falasy making finance and much less taxes about left or right, identity and feelings. It’s neither left nor right to have functioning market.

        Edit: for all New Zealanders :p

        • gsays

          I am trying to work out if you are taking the piss or not.
          A functioning market is a fiction, a fiction loved by folk of the right.

          Often cited leading up to the point where losses need to be socialized.
          You know, after profits were privatised. A la SCF, Mainzeal, BNZ…..

          • Sam

            Just wanted to give you a few minutes to realise that we do have a housing market in “crises” ie not functioning properly, piss boy.

        • Stuart Munro

          The problem of late has not been market function, so much as market integrity.

          PPPs have not been held to any kind of delivery standard, so their ostensible market purity doesn’t amount to a hill of beans.

          Likewise edumigration scams – great as a business, shit for the country.

          Ditto Southern Response – gaming claims, not helping rebuild.

          It’s truly not left or right, but honest/dishonest.

          But where are the principled righties condemning such rorts? Where is Wayne, for example? Apparently in the same place he was for the whole of the Key administration – silently assenting to the ongoing corruption.

          • Sam

            Y’old Wayne definitely found his voice and courage upon retiring from parliament. He’s a hardline, dedicated and disciplined liar. He doesn’t lye per say. He omits certain things so telling half truths. He’s really quiet good at it when he’s punching down. But a former Prime Minister of New Zealand facing fraud charges. That’s shame. It’s the repentance the sector requires. We don’t need these people running there mouths in private. We need them front and centre so every one can see there bullshit.

  5. James 5

    All this talk of trump and most have forgotten about Trudeau. He could be in for a lot of trouble.

  6. ianmac 6

    What if an area of great poverty be chosen to fix the plight of families and children?
    This area would be given the number of staff needed and the backup resources.
    Social welfare officers would have a case load of say10 rather than the current overload of 30. (Burnt out staff might return to help.)
    Housing needs would be filled.
    Employment opportunities enhanced.
    My plan would demonstrate, or not, that fully funded needs could make a difference.

    Also read by Ian Hislop.

    • Macro 6.1

      In the late 60’s and early 70’s as a Child Welfare Officer in Wellington/Porirua I had a case load of over 100.
      Just saying.
      Had I had a case load even as low as 30 I think I could have been much more effective in my work rather than rushing from one crisis to the next.

      • greywarshark 6.1.1

        Macro you must have a load of ideas of how the most effective help could be given to the struggling and those with bad parenting styles. It would be good if we could have a Sunday post on this sometime in the way that Robert has – and this would be one on Families in poverty of finances, houses and mindset. I know that some are so busy on day to day stuff that they have little time to take steps to improve their state.

        • Macro

          Thank you grey for those kind remarks.
          Over the years I guess I have gathered some ideas – but I feel far from being an expert. The ideas promoted by ianmac above are very worthy of consideration. The concept of a social hub for communities is not new and I know that during the last parliamentary term one of the parliamentary committees were actually considering such a thing based on the schools in an area. Ive seen such things in WA where the local high school in Warnborough (south of Perth) houses the local library, hall, and a medical centre, (even a church) with all the facilities that go with such a centre. The local swimming pool (massive by NZ standards) is right next door.

          • greywarshark

            Great idea.
            Reading Ian Hyslop – in his reference to the Expert Panel’s attitude to social workers as being in a failing system I believe he is coming from a business approach which wants to do something once and then move on. Business and the machine mind is irritated by people in general’ all having problems which have to be considered in a modern, fair society. People needing social work assistance need more than one time of helping, someone to lean on, and to help them stand straight and learn how to manage until the next problem in their lives.

            The three strikes and your in for good attitude, to criminals, is on the same road, coming from irritation and a lack of respect for the human inside us all. Another example is how government agencies will deny a long-running help group the necessary funds to continue and yet fund someone new. Because the previous group hasn’t solved the problem, the thinking is let it go, and let’s try if someone else can do better. The thought that the people being helped are presented in life with a situation shaped so they can never have a regular life that is counted as the norm, and the big thing for them is to learn to maximise their opportunities in what’s offered to them, escapes the attention of the administrators who will have some high or zero target that their eyes will be fixed on, and their income also.

            I like to draw analogies. This is like the fable about the autocrat who said that a young woman who I think was to marry his son, had first to turn straw into gold cloth or she would face some punishment. Distraught, she was helped by the magic of a wily and devious goblin who said I’ll help you lady but you must give me your first born. That was the basic story of Rumplestiltskin. Parents with children who are not managing in our society, are having their children removed in increasing numbers by a Maori-named organisation whose executive I saw imaged recently was distinctly middle-class, older, pakeha.

            John Mortimer had a dig at the ‘caring profession’ in his story Rumpole and the Children of the Devil in his collection Rumple on Trial. He emphasised their
            willingness to jump for misconduct in any behaviour, and their prejudiced attitudes which they reinforced by askingthe child leading questions that would implicate the parents sufficiently to make a case against them, and take the child away.

            But there have been projects done that could act as templates for something today to get love and willingness to help a parent or parents in a respectful way to move up from distress and basic survival. It won’t succeed all the time but that 80/20 ratio that is referred to as a rule of thumb in reckons would be a brilliant change.

            Here is info about one project of a Social hub for the community of Aranui, Christchurch late last century.
            Sister Pauline O’Regan and her companion sisters set up a community hub in an area of Christchurch, Aranui. There were many young women with their children there. They needed support – couldn’t manage just from their own communal resources. (This is the sort of good thing that has come out of the Catholic Church which should not be overlooked in the dismay of learning the faults that have arisen in that institution.)




            The book Sister Pauline wrote in partnership with Sister Teresa O’Connor, entitled, Community – Give it a Go! has been widely used ever since by community workers all over New Zealand. It was later turned into a workbook under the title, I Can Change Anything ̶ But Not On My Own.

        • Cinny

          Yes please Grey re the idea for a weekend post re the above.

          Thanks for sharing that link Ianmac.

          Macro, much much respect, people like yourself change and save lives, even long after a person has left such a role. It’s the knowledge you’ve gained and the resulting ideas which you share, that make a massive difference in peoples lives.

          Mum worked for what’s now known as CYF’s in the late 60’s early 70’s, not sure what her case load was like. But what she learnt in that role and the resulting knowledge she’s shared, has helped me to be a better parent.

          • Macro

            In those days what became CYF was called Child Welfare and it was a Division of the Education Dept. In Wellington we had a staff of around 20 social workers and our office served all of Wellington and up the West coast to Porirua, Elsdon, Paramata, and Titahi Bay. My patch included all the boy state wards at Porirua Hospital – around 30 if IRC, half of Porirua, and Titahi Bay . The boys in Porirua Hospital were in state care, but it was the hospital who determined their fate. It was depressing work visiting the infamous M8 secure ward where many of the boys were. I can tell you, sitting in a padded cell listening to a young guy who had been incarcerated there, was one of the most traumatic experiences of my life and it still haunts me. I managed to get a few of them out. One young lad on gaining the age of 18, I managed to find some accommodation for him in a hostel in the city, got him a job on a construction site – actually earning more than my meagre salary 🙂 – and then we went shopping to get some decent clothes, and he was away!
            That was only part of the job – the other was visiting and writing up court reports for the magistrate in the youth court. There could be up to 6 or so court reports to be written each week. And most of those would result in supervision ie more work.

            • Cinny

              Woah Macro, that’s a massive area to cover for just 20 staff, especially with the lack of modern technology, quite mind boggling when one thinks about it.

              The M8 ward.. don’t think I’m familiar with that place, going to do the google tomorrow and check it out. Sounds terrible. Maybe I have seen something about it once on 60minutes or Sunday….

              Much respect Macro.

              • Macro

                Thought I would look it up for you. It thankfully is no longer in existence, but the women’s equivalent (F Ward) is and has been preserved as an historic building. It is a little “grander” than the M ward. and a pic and description of the ward is given on the historical places trust site here
                Here is a modern day impression of life in the women’s ward:
                Frankly that is a little glossy in its depiction. Electric shock “treatment” was the standard practice and the patients hated and feared it. If you weren’t disturbed before – you were now! It was given almost indiscriminately. ECT has its place I gather in treatment of some severe mental illness, but back then it was applied almost universally. I’m sure most of those admitted in the 60’s would not be today. Indeed according to Wiki “Most patients were released into community-based care in the 1970s”

  7. Kat 7

    “We have been warned”…….Hoots ramping up the anti Ardern rhetoric in the fish wrap this morning. Bet he’s pissed about aunty Jenny getting all that bad press.

    • Muttonbird 7.1

      The ‘Ardern is in shock’ line was invented by Barry Super the other day I think and here are the usual suspects pushing it as fake news.

      • dv 7.1.1

        I had a snigger at the head line on Sopper CGT article
        Taxpayers set to suffer most in capital gains tax rumble

        WELL DUH

      • Jimmy 7.1.2

        Seems strange coming from Soper as he has always been very left leaning. Why has he turned on Adern?

        • Muttonbird

          You’re wrong on Soper’s political leanings. His default position is clearly right wing and always has been. Of course he’ll write clickbait in order to promote himself, no matter who is in government.

          • Jimmy

            I disagree, I think Soper, Trotter, Jessie Mulligan, John Campbell are all very left leaning.
            Leighton Smith, Mike Hosking, Larry Williams right leaning

            • patricia bremner

              Soper left? What are you drinking?

              He is a nasty piece who takes every opportunity to knock.

  8. Muttonbird 8

    Airbnb. No care, no responsibility.

    Here they are complicit in illegal building activity by having unsafe buildings listed on their App.

    • BM 8.1

      Airbnb. No care, no responsibility.

      What do you expect Airbnb to do? they’re not going to go and check every single listing to see if they’re code compliant?

      If people think the accommodation is shit, they’ll get it a low score or if it’s unsafe, dirty etc, you get back in touch with Airbnb and they’ll refund your money and remove the listing from the site unless improvements are made.

      • Muttonbird 8.1.1

        I’d hate to think how many dangerous and illegal dwellings they list on their website.

        Perhaps the model needs looking at…

        • BM

          Perhaps the model needs looking at

          You seem to be very hostile towards Airbnb.
          If people don’t want to rent their properties out but instead prefer to make income via Airbnb what’s the problem?

          • Muttonbird

            It reduces long term rental stock and leaves it empty and unused for most of the year. That’s not a good used of resources and is damaging to low income communities.

            There are approximately 6000 whole house/apartment Airbnbs in Auckland alone which is a lot of families.

            • Gosman

              It is the owners choice what they do with their property. Why should it bother you?

              • Sam

                You keep on brining up the same points that have been thoroughly debunked. Moteliers, y’know, business owners can’t compete.

              • Muttonbird

                Did you even read what I wrote?

                • Gosman

                  Again it is not YOUR business what someone decides to do with THEIR property. If they want to keep it empty for the majority of the year that should be their right.

                  • Sam

                    Faark no. I’d too many houses go unoccupied regulators will move on the industry any way.

                  • left_forward

                    … no matter what the impact is on the community that they depend on!

                    • Gosman

                      If you want to influence their decision you can do it by offering more of an incentive for them to make it available i.e. off them more money.

                    • left_forward

                      The benefits are all a bit one directional aren’t they Gos?
                      Don’t you think that the landlord benefits from the presence of and interaction with the community?

                    • Sam

                      Why pay premiums to Airbnb when Novotel will give a $90 suit with breakfast voucher. You make adsolutly no sense gooie and your education is shit.

                    • Gosman

                      The landlord obviously doesn’t value such an interaction in a case where they don’t do what the community wants them to do.

                    • left_forward

                      Cheers Gosman, this is exactly right – yet the landlord is dependent on the community around them. So if we are arguing this from a moral perspective and that this is the basis of the establishment of rules and law, it becomes everyone’s business what the landlord does with their property. No landlord, just as no man, is an island.

                  • Muttonbird

                    Some people are socially conscious.

                    And some aren’t.

              • arkie

                Well, if you wanted to change the use of your property from residential to commercial wouldn’t you would need resource consent from the council?

                Before you start any activity that might affect your neighbours, your wider community or your environment, contact your local council


                Oh right, yes you would.

                If a new AirBnB is your neighbour shouldn’t you, at the very least, be notified by the owner? Seeing as you’ll actually be living next to it?

                • Muttonbird

                  So true. Airbnb guests are told to lie to neighbours about who they are. Can’t be a very nice holiday experience.

              • AB

                “It is the owners choice what they do with their property. Why should it bother you?”

                Of course it’s not an absolute right. If they do things with/on the property that are a danger to the community (e.g. manufacture explosives) the community reserves the right to intervene.
                The argument is therefore not about the right to intervene – that right already exists and is well established. It’s about what sorts of uses of the property call for such intervention. You can imagine society deciding that using a property as an airbnb is sufficiently socially irresponsible that intervention is justified.
                I wouldn’t make that judgment myself – but my point is that you are deliberately framing the argument incorrectly and adopting an absolutist position on private property rights – the sure signs of a charlatan.

                • RedLogix

                  A sound argument, although adopting an absolutist position on private property rights – the sure signs of a charlatan. is probably more a sign of Gosman’s libertarian impulses showing through.

                  He makes a fair point though, while private property rights are not absolute and there are many well understood constraints on them, it’s also true that the opposite extreme is equally undesirable. If the state impinges too heavily on property rights it erodes trust and motivates people to move their capital to places more secure.

                  The massive flight of capital out of China being the most obvious contemporary example. (And incidentally the main reason why property in NZ is now so expensive.)

                  • Gosman

                    Exactly. While I agree that people shouldn’t be able to do absolutely ANYTHING on a property exceptions to private property usage rights should be rare and need a level of justification that discourages others from applying them. The trouble with the views expressed by some here is that the argument around people using or not using their properties in a particular commercial manner is so subjective it opens the door for all sorts of abuse of private property rights.

                    • Muttonbird

                      Absolutist as always.

                      Regulating the short term stay market doesn’t automatically mean banning Airbnb, but I guess in your darkened and paranoid world it’s the lefty boogie-man coming to get you again.

                      As I said before, empty houses are a waste of resources and socially damaging especially in a under housed market and every effort should be made to encourage multiple house owners to ditch the amateur hotelier badge and do what they pretend to do, which is to provide housing.

                    • Gosman

                      It isn’t your decision to make if the resources are being wasted because they aren’t your resources. If you think they could be used in another manner then buy them and use them for that purpose. Trying to force others to do so smacks of totalitarianism or at least opens up the path to such an eventuality.

                    • Muttonbird

                      Oh dear. Someone doesn’t know what the word “government” means. 😂

                    • Gosman

                      The trouble with your mindset is you think the government should as a matter of course be able to do anything it likes so long as it is deemed to be in the public good. Whereas I take the view that the government shouldn’t be able to do anything they want and should only be able to intervene in rare cases where there is overwhelming evidence that widespread harm would occur if they did not intervene.

                    • Muttonbird

                      Yep. Widespread harm – that’s what is happening now.

                      The trouble with your mindset is you refuse to recognise it because it doesn’t affect you personally.

                  • AB

                    So we agree that people shouldn’t be able to do absolutely anything on a property, nor should they be able to do absolutely nothing.

                    This is true – but barely above the level of a tautology in its information content. The messy ground in the middle is what we call politics.

                    Personally I hate being told what to do and prefer to be left alone. I resist all authority unless it is democratic in origin and can justify itself. For this reason I am more hostile to private economic power than to state power.

                    • RedLogix

                      It’s interesting to note that right wingers distrust big government, while left wingers get anxious about big corporations. The common factor being big.

                      In both instances there is there is there is the “impulse to resist all authority”. Although your point about authority which is democratically accountable is well made and I’m in agreement with you on that. It’s why I’m fundamentally very much a left winger.

                      Yet we should not be entirely dismissive of those who see ‘big government’ as equally provocative; after all there are plenty of examples of governments acting in very bad faith indeed against the interests of individuals who inconvenience them in some manner.

            • BM

              It reduces long term rental stock and leaves it empty and unused for most of the year. That’s not a good use of resources and is damaging to low-income communities.

              Places that are on Airbnb would never be rented to low-income families, they wouldn’t be able to afford the rent.

              Just out of curiosity I checked out listings for Airbnb in Otara and Manurewa, there were only 100 listings and most of those were quite expensive looking places.

              The problem for low-income families is not Airbnb, the problem is trying to find a place they can afford to rent.

              Maybe Ardern and her ship of fools should concentrate on social housing, instead of Kiwifarce.

              • Muttonbird

                The places listed on Airbnb might not be suitable for low income families but they would be for higher income families who then have no access to them so are forced rent the places that would be suitable for low income communities. They inevitably get crowded out because Airbnb listings take houses off the market. This is damaging in a housing crisis such as ours.

                The figures for Auckland I have estimated from data collected here:

                • BM

                  There’s not a shortage of rental properties, there’s a huge shortage of affordable rentals

                  On trade me, there are currently 2026 listings for 3 bedrooms + in the Auckland area.

                  But if I want a 3 bedroom place for

                  $400 a week and under there are 27
                  $500 a week and under there are 198

                  Within a year thanks to Labour I doubt you’ll find a three bedroom place to rent in the Auckland area for under $550

                  You can blame Ardern for that.

                  • left_forward

                    Yes blame the Government! Blame the Government!
                    Blame Adern for my prediction!?

                  • lprent


                    They were at those kind of levels in 2016 for renting. The only thing that has changed since then is that as tenancy agreements have rolled over they have been bumped up to the markets rate.

                    Rents in Auckland have been pretty stable through 2018. Basically the prior changes to requiring tax accounts and close enforcement of speculation laws have had the effect of stalling speculative buying. Now we just have the backlog of a decade of National’s high immigration and laziness about building infrastructure and accomadarion.

                    I think that you just see what you want to see.

                    The truth is that National are just a disaster for NZ every time they get into government. Just lazy fuckwits.

                  • cleangreen

                    Crap BM,

                    Ardern is doing a better job of looking after homeless than your mob did.

                  • Cinny

                    bm, let’s change that to …. a huge shortage of un- affordable housing (not just rentals).

                    Our home has doubled in value in the last five years. That’s completely obscene in my eyes, god only knows how people can afford a deposit let alone a mortgage these days. And the rates due to the increased land value, far out $$$.

                    The prior nat government is to blame for that.

                  • KJT

                    And. As Labour are trying to do something about it, we just get endless road blocks from the wealthy end of the right wing.

                    Who are doing rather well out of low wages, high rents, capital gains on buying and selling existing assets, and lack of taxes on high incomes, and wealth. Thanks very much.

                    Of course there is also the “useful idiots” who are not well off, but have the delusion that they will be, one day. When their specialness’ is recognised. Who don’t want taxes on the rich, because they dream of becoming one of them.

              • Sam

                Normal people put cars in the garage, not families. Under such conditions everything has to be considered.

                • Muttonbird

                  Normal people put cars in the garage, not families.

                  Great line, that.

                • Bewildred

                  Garage – house, Spedos – Undies It’s all a matter of interpretation and context Sammy boy

                • alwyn

                  I know a lot of normal people and in my experience your statement is false.
                  Garages in New Zealand aren’t used to store cars in most cases. They are to hold all the junk that people accumulate. There is simply no room for their car(s).

                  They aren’t commonly used for people to live in these days although I know a number who have done it.
                  It was quite common in the beach resort of Waikanae on the Kapiti Coast north of Waikane for people to have a “garage” built. There was no access to them with a car but the building rules for them were pretty lax and they were fine as a weekender.

                  Now the place is full of McMansions owned by very well paid Civil Servants. It doesn’t feel like a place to relax any more. Sigh.

                  • Sam

                    Insurance says put your car in the garage or pay with your sole.

                  • cleangreen



                    I have three garages on two properties on our family property and every garage has a vehicle.

                    You must have either poor people in your world or rich hoarders.

                    • alwyn

                      How can you possibly consider yourself to be a Greenie when you own all those vehicles? You really must be one of those selfish rich pricks that Michael Cullen seems to hate so much, and you certainly aren’t setting a good example in using Public Transport exclusively.

                      Multiple properties as well as multiple vehicles too. The CGT is going to whack you.

                      I see why you are so scornful of the common people who are as poor as muck. I’ll bet you don’t really like to associate with those that you really rich types seem to regard as the scum, rather than the salt, of the earth.

                      It is a bit patronising of course to talk about me like this though.
                      “You must have either poor people in your world”.
                      But I do. As I am sure you are aware, as written in the good book
                      “Blessed are the meek,
                      for they shall inherit the earth.”
                      “Blessed are they who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
                      for they shall be satisfied”.

                      You are apparently not a typical household of course. The latest census said that 16% of households had 3 or more vehicles so you are not typical. I would love to have more up to date figures but the Minister of Statistics doesn’t seem at all interested in the subject.

                      I think therefore the people I know are far more typical of the New Zealand population than you are and therefor I do not accept your personal circumstances as being in any way typical.

                  • Cinny

                    I’ve had people living in my garage until they could find a place, due to the lack of and cost of housing.

                    A couple of houses down from us the Grandparents are living in the garage and the kids and adults live in the house.

                • KJT

                  I’ve had homeless teenagers couch surfing in my garage for years.
                  My kids are good at picking up needy strays. Human and animal?

                  Now have my daughter and her partner. Did it up to house insulation standards, though.

                  Young people simply cannot afford a place to live.

                  You wonder why the resentment towards landlords and property speculators/sorry, investors..

                  We’ve seen it over the last few years, all around us. Reasonably priced houses being pushed into stratospheric prices by wannabee, “landlords” from Auckland.
                  As for the rise in rents.

                  • Sam

                    That just leaves too possible solutions. One is to eliminate poverty, the other is to eliminate democracy. It’s pretty clear that Jacinda’s solution is to eliminate poverty and every iteration of National Party leader the most recent in Simon Bridges is to privatise the tax system and eliminate as much government as possible regardless of the consequences.

                    That leaves the problem that if we do have democracy the majority of the poor will use there power to do socialist wealth redistribution reform and a top tax rate past 33% just won’t be allowed and as time goes on the problem of increasing tax hikes only gets worse because there’s a growing percentage of the population that are going to suffer under neoliberal rule and serious austerity measures and will secretly long for more equal and equatable distribution of life’s blessings and if they have the vote they may do something about it which is one reason why National voters tend to be older and tend to frown real hard on the down trodden for no other reason than it would threaten the wealth and power of the elites.

                    That just leaves the problem of a majority being impoverished which threatens the wealthy control of property. In that position I would say to Jacinda I always thought New Zealand would be a great country but we have to have an idea of it, that is an efficient, open, competitive, cosmopolitan republic. Yes I said a republic that is integrating itself with the Oceania Region. We have to give the economy a new economic engine which ultimately finds comfort and security in Oceania. We find our prosperity in Oceania, we find our security in Oceania. That’s why we have to be a republic so we can come to terms with Māori and Pacific Islanders and ultimate find peace and comfort in New Zealand.

              • Gabby

                Ardern has no shipley of fools BMmer.

              • joe90

                Places that are on Airbnb would never be rented to low-income families, they wouldn’t be able to afford the rent.

                Here’s two of several that I know of in my burg where permanent tenants were given the arse and the properties listed on Airbnd.



                • Muttonbird

                  Good research.

                  Like John Key, BM thinks a quick Trademe search provides all the relevant stats on housing.

              • patricia bremner

                BM, your last sentence tells us where your loyalties lie.
                You do not criticise Simon Bridges, for his stupid tweet behaviour, Jenny
                Shipley for her reckless directorship, or any right wing mistakes, Bennett for her poor ability to keep information private.
                After 10 years of light handed Government, we had Hospitals broke, some with unhealthy walls, Schools needing maintenance and a critical housing shortage with run away prices. No instead you call the Government “Adern and her ship of fools”
                You are definitely in the blue boat, and don’t seem to realise there has been 1000 social houses built, 1600 winter places found for the homeless, money given to Marae to update facilities, as well as the beginning of Kiwi Build.
                What would you do instead? Please try to be civil if you can.

              • Ankerrawshark

                Good to hear you want the housing crisis solved bm

      • Gabby 8.1.2

        Well BMmer, if they’re advertising falsely, they’re responsible for that aren’t thy.

        • Gosman

          They require the oweners to ensure the properties meet standards. They can’t be expected to ensure every one of the properties listed is inspected by someone. You don’t go to a travel site on the web expecting that would you?

          • Sam

            You’re literally conceding the burden of carry again. People literally go to the air BnB app to rate the accomodation.

        • BM

          Nope, Air Bnb is just a brokering service.

        • Bewildered

          No not if they are simply brokering a service and not acting as householders agent In their interest to ensure accuracy re credibility of business of which direct and transparent customer feedback seems more then adequate, while also very quick

      • Sabine 8.1.3

        actually if they don’t want to get sued at some stage by people who got injured or died due to unsuitable housing advertised on their business, yes they should. It would be good business practice for them to protect them from liability should a yahoo landlord/lady decide they like to fleece tourist for a quick buck for very little bang.

    • Graeme 8.2

      Wouldn’t say that Airbnb were complicit in the breach but you could start to put together a case that QLDC were by omission. The initial complaint was in Jan 17 but no site visit was made, just a few emails sent, and things didn’t get going until May 18 when another complaint was made, then it took another 18 months for the slap with wet bus ticket in court.

      In kinda defence of QLDC they have been rather busy dealing with the total taps off approach of the previous government to development around here and ensuing lax compliance by some developers and builders.

      • Muttonbird 8.2.1

        This is an issue with disruptive global tech. Any other retailer or developer must provide proof their product is safe for consumption.

        But with the new model the global platforms of airbnb, Lime, and uber take little or no responsibility for the safety of the public using the products and services listed on their websites and from which they generate tax free profit.

        New tech = new regulation.

        • greywarshark

          And don’t leave out, as the global privateers move in, they elbow the locals trying to do a reasonable job and conforming reasonably to the local laws, out of business.

          Then we are into unreasonable, fake, phony, PR, and lack of trust in everything. And possibly can’t afford to buy anything anyway, because all our money is being siphoned away>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with no full stop at the end – unless government is enabled by thinking and perspicacious voters to get off the pot. (And finding enough of them is as hard as it is to spell perserppkashus!)

        • Bewildered

          No new tech often means no need for regulation as self regulation and system recalibrates itself, hence less control required and much more efficient at meeting a market need etc, hence why disruptive Think ant colonies, bird swarms etc how much control and regulation do they need

          • Stuart Munro

            All you need to validate your argument is a couple of examples of ant colonies adopting new tech.

            We’ll wait.

            • Bewildred

              Your arguement is a fallacy Stuey and very weak at that, and I know you know it The holy grail for any systen efficiency is self calibration with out the need for overding control, this applies to technology and biological systems Thsts why roundabouts are often more efficient than lights etc

              • Stuart Munro

                Self calibration isn’t always successful with disruptive tech companies, Bewildered, the fuckers aren’t even paying tax yet.

                Maybe you think this endpoint is success:

                Despite the appeal of Lime scooters as a source of parts, they provide no value as yet to offset the injuries they are causing. Not a business model with a lengthy future.

                • Bewildered

                  Did not argue all technology companies more the general principal and air bnb , talk about straw man arguement and false equivalence

                  • Stuart Munro

                    These logical fallacies are great things to wave at the punters, Bewildered, but they work better if you actually understand what they mean eh.

                    You came up with a couple of weaksauce arguments so threadbare it was hard not to drive a truck through them, now you’re whining because you overgeneralized and got picked up.

                    Write what you mean – if you mean anything.

              • KJT

                That is why Government provision is often cheaper and more efficient than private provision.

                All the costs loaded onto the community, both in lack of care about the effectiveness and safety of the service, but also all the costs of making the buggers behave.

                • Bewildered

                  Possibly but Railways MOW, Telecom etc pre deregulation would suggest not, similarly the choice we have now after deregulation in contrast to state controlled and closed economy pre deregulation in 1984 also suggest your arguement is very weak beyond monopolies and issue of public private externalities

                  • KJT

                    Still, bewildered eh.

                    Attributing changes from technical advances, over time, to privatisation, is a common fallacy from the right wing.

                    Certainly MOW, built roads and infrastructure, trained people and kept a pool of skills in the public service for a lot less, than we pay for all those things, now.

                    The Christchurch reconstruction boon doggie wasn’t helped that we no longer have good project managers in State employment.

                    Railways was fucking run into the ground, after privatisation. Needing an expensive State rescue, which we are still paying for.

                    Do you people have blinkers on.

          • Muttonbird

            I’m trying to think of examples where zero, low, or self-regulation has improved safety for workers and consumers…

            • KJT

              Plenty of counter examples.
              Leaky houses.
              Pike River.
              Canterbury earthquake rebuild.
              Auckland power supplies.
              Every depression.

              Etc etc etc…….

              • Muttonbird

                Precisely. I can’t quite believe the righties would promote self-regulation after such a series of disasters for workers because of it.

                Perhaps they don’t care about workers and their families? The National Party certainly doesn’t.

                • KJT

                  We can add.
                  Finance companies.
                  Loan sharks.

                  An almost endless list of harm, due to lack of regulation.

            • Bewildered

              Remember days when you could only get white bread and coloured white bread call brown bread or you had to use railways to freight anything more than 100km or you had to apply to government to get forgein currency or it 6 weeks to get a phone or only the railways could run Ferries across the cook straightb etc……,Just think a little harder beyond your ideological prejudice

              • Muttonbird

                What a ridiculous connection.

                There’s a genuine paucity of thought apparent on the right wing at the moment, illustrated perfectly by your comments and Simon Bridges’ leadership.

              • joe90

                Remember days

                I remember those days because was there and the only place any of those things are true is in your febrile imagination.

              • KJT

                Yes. I remember the days when an ‘apprentice’ could buy a section, and, go ski-ing. I did both. The house was hard, due to the Neo-liberals 25%, interest rates after 84.

                When a “caretaker” built and campaigned a race yacht with the nobs.

                When the well off lived in the same street, as the rest.

                When milk and bread were affordable, for a low income family with five kids. Along with a Sunday roast.

                When we had no beggars on the streets.

                When young families, could afford, to take a car across Cook Strait.

                When we paid 60% top tax rate, but schools had enough funds, any child could get an apprenticeship, and if you were academic, University scholarships, pregnant Mum’s got a week, or more, in hospital if they needed it and damn near everyone had a decent paying job, and a house.

                When ordinary “hard working Kiwi’s” had enough to start innovative businesses.

                Sure, there were a lot of things that could be improved, but Governments since 84, not only threw out the dirty bathwater. They threw out the baby, the bath and sold the fucking house from under us.

                I remember, all right.

        • Sabine

          This is why our current lot in government should look at aggressively regulating the market. To the same extend as hotels/motels/hostels/backpackers are regulated.

          i.e. hygiene, safety exits, kitchen facilities (food control plan), staffing, licensing, registration etc etc etc

          But so as long as the government does diddly squat everything goes. But then, that is NZ housing in general innit?

        • Graeme

          Na, the Airbnb element is sort of irrelevant. The same sort of thing went on in previous boom cycles here but with slightly different flavours.

          Last cycle there would have been 40 backpackers doing casual / illegal work living on the property and the owner / lessee charging them each $200 + a week to stay there. Airbnb has at least got rid of that sort of shit. So we’re getting a better class of non-compliance if that’s any consolation.

          The real issue here is a Council that is totally snowed under and trades that are doing illegal work. They appear to have had 4 residential units on the property, so someone installed 3 kitchens and bathrooms in the place without consent, and the Council didn’t follow up on the initial complaint properly, probably because they were too busy.

          • gsays

            “So we’re getting a better class of non-compliance if that’s any consolation.”
            Thanks Graeme for that chuckle.

  9. Andre 9

    If the Don of America’s #1 Crime Family was worried about his consigliere getting called to testify in the House, well, now’s the time to really freak out. His money man is expected to be called to testify.

  10. Enough 10

    RNZ reports that all front-line police officers in Canterbury have been told to carry firearms until further notice. The decision was made by the district commander, Superintendent John Price.

    Police Association president Chris Cahill told Morning Report routine arming of police could be where New Zealand was heading.

    Police Minister, Stuart Nash supports this action, but won’t be interviewed.

    Barrister Nicholas Taylor, who specialises in firearms law, says police have “very inadequate training with their Glock 17 pistols and bushmaster rifles”. “If you’re engaging with various offenders in built up areas, specialist training really needs to be employed so that innocent civilians don’t get caught in the crossfire.”

    It was not the New Zealand way to have our police armed, he said.

    Another attack on the Kiwi way of life?

    • indiana 10.1

      Unintended consequences of promoting few prisons and repealing the 3 strikes law?

      • BM 10.1.1

        Maybe that’s how Labour is going to decrease the prison population? the police will just shoot the criminals.

        Clever, I didn’t expect that.

        • Cinny

          BM did you know this happens frequently, it’s not a new thing, it was happening prior to the change of government.

          The only difference is, in this particular situation they decided to publicly announce it, re ChCh police being armed.

          • cleangreen

            BM has a lapse of memory Cinny.

          • alwyn

            It would be bloody hard to disguise the fact that they are all going to be carrying pistols in holsters on their hip.
            Prior to this they had weapons but they were stored in the car.
            I hope we don’t get the situation that happened close to where I lived in Melbourne. A young man, who was mentally disturbed, was sitting on a park bench whacking at it with a machete. A policeman ordered him to drop it and when he didn’t he shot him, claiming that he, the policeman was in danger. In fact all he was doing was hitting the bench.
            Having the weapons on their hip must be far to tempting.

            • Cinny

              Don’t get me wrong, I’m so not down with the police carrying guns on their hips.

              Trigger happy hunters are bad enough, let alone trigger happy police. We don’t need bloodlusting police like the USA, that’s for sure.

              That Melbourne story you shared Alwyn, scary that he reached for the gun so quickly.

              But in this instance it’s not a new thing, it just hasn’t been publicised like this before.

      • mpledger 10.1.2

        The three strikes law hasn’t been repealed. Looking at the Justice website there have been 6 “third strikes”. Of those, 2 or 3 have been in the news because the sentencing judge said the full sentence for the third strike offense was manifestly unjust and made it a good deal shorter.

        If anything having a third strike law is associated with the police arming themselves.

      • Gabby 10.1.3

        Of allowing cronies to import illegal drugs and wash their takings through casinos indinana?

    • greywarshark 10.2

      I wondered about the pseudonym indiana and got this from youtube.

      It looks as if Indiana state is as full of BS as us so from usa to nz us, doesn’t look a big step, and they can help us to some better PR. As long as you don’t look
      behind the coloured curtain; or into the future in all its changing colours – brilliant sun and green and brown, some bright orange, then black, then dark greeny-brown of flood water, then back to brown again, then brilliant, some green, then brown.

      We should keep in touch with Indiana – have a sister city there if not already.

    • alwyn 10.3

      I am a great deal more worried for the lives of innocent bystanders.
      Remember the 17 year old courier driver the police shot in Auckland about 10 years ago?

      Current Labour MP, Greg O’Connor, defended the police. In his opinion the police did nothing wrong and it wasn’t their fault if they shot an innocent bystander.

      Some compensation was finally paid, after the Police fought the case for about four years but the police involved were totally exonerated.

      I wonder if the police are finally going to be taught to look at what is behind their target before they open fire?

      • KJT 10.3.1

        Especially when the police association think, “the public just have to get more used to the police shooting people”.

        The call for guns for police, are certainly not because of a greater danger to police.
        Look at ACC, where police are at for dangers in the workplace. Somewhere about office workers. The most danger is their own driving.

        Personally I think persons that feel they need a gun to do the job, do not belong in the police.

    • Gabby 10.4

      Gnashy’s in the wrong party.

  11. gsays 11

    I heard Cahill on the tranny yesty (day before?), he was asked about the Police Union’s stance on firearms, he replied (paraphrasing, I forget the term he used) for officers to have sidearms.

    Coincidentally, this issue arises in Canterbury, and the order is given.
    Not till the perp is apprehended, but ‘until further notice.

    I thought under O’Connor, the desire was to not be armed.

    Who is watching the watchers?

    • indiana 11.1

      You were put here to protect us, but who protects us from you?

    • greywarshark 11.2

      The police often look to the USA to guide them on how to do the job. Of course they love their guns there. And the war against drugs has given them ready-made villains and an excuse to use their hardware. After all if you are carrying weaponry you might as well use it. And when they don’t have guns, they can always fall back on the length of their batons as proof of their manhood; women? They have to fit into the cull-ture.

      • gsays 11.2.1

        I have been watching Flint on Netflix, about the Police force there: stretched, under resourced, off side with their community.
        Anyhoo the weapons training has a military feel to it.
        Something that has caused consternation in the US, the para military way the police force is going.

    • alwyn 11.3

      “I thought under O’Connor, the desire was to not be armed”.
      Where on earth did you get that idea?

      When he was head of the Union he always supported arming the Police.
      It was only after he became a prospective MP that he started rewriting history.
      When he was in the Union he said
      “In a report on the association’s conference in October, 2014, O’Connor is quoted saying, “I believe the time has come to arm every frontline officer”.
      In a column O’Connor wrote for NZME in that same month, he said, “It is time to overcome our squeamishness and arm police.”

      The “not in favour” stance only started after he was chosen as a Labour Party candidate.

    • Gabby 11.4

      On the plus side he also calls for registering firearms.

    • greywarshark 11.5

      It is as well to have officers with arms at their sides- so normally effective. They just should not have guns at the end of their arms.

      What about tear gas for real maniacs as a device to flush them out. And call in the weapons team, well trained, to be held as resource for hours if need be, but no-one to go shooting as a first or even second course. Weapons guy can shatter a leg bone or whatever is the most effective to heal after advice from the medical profession. Keep it simple and do it well, by the experienced gunmen, if it has to be done at all.

      It would be good if the police could set a good example to the public and those who take the criminal violent line.

  12. Drowsy M. Kram 12

    IMO routine arming of NZ police would be a backward step – really sad if it’s necessary. #KiwiWayOfLife

    Here’s an entertaining NZ police recruitment video; no mention of firearms though.

    And this is just for information; New Zealand and Norway are adjacent in the list.

  13. greywarshark 13

    Pollies as directors. Karl du Fresne had a look in 2013 on Noted.

    • Ad 13.1

      Best transition for a politician I’ve seen, apart from Helen Clark, is Simon Power to Westpac Wealth Management.

      Power is the closest we ever got to good cartel legislation. A major loss of intellectual grunt in the commercial sphere for National’s government.

    • Ad 13.2

      Best transition for a politician I’ve seen, apart from Helen Clark, is Simon Power to Westpac Wealth Management.

      Power is the closest we ever got to good cartel legislation. A major loss of intellectual grunt in the commercial sphere for National’s government.

    • Ad 13.3

      Two best transitions into the commercial world I have seen for politicians were:

      Simon Power to Westpac Wealth Management. A great intellectual loss to National, and the closest we ever got to cartel legislation.


      Steve Maharey to Massey University Vice Chancellor

      Can’t count Hon John Key’s transition into Air NZ and banking as particularly successful yet.

      • Muttonbird 13.3.1

        Air NZ is going backward since he got there so I’d say it’s a fail.

        I suspect his business strategy skills aren’t all they were cracked up to be.

        He was only a money trader, after all.

        • greywarshark

          I suspect his business strategy skills… are cracked…..past his use-by date.

        • Alan

          tell us about your wonderful skills and achievements mb

          • Muttonbird

            I don’t get paid 7 figures to wreck companies like John Key and Jenny Shipley do – I’ll give you that. 🤣

            • Alan

              fine, but tell us the marvellous things you have done

              • Muttonbird

                Lol. It’s none of your business.

              • greywarshark

                You go first.

                • Alan

                  but, but mb is so clever and informed, he/she must have lots of high powered experience across a variety of fields…..

                  • Muttonbird

                    I said two statements separated by an opinion.

                    Nothing I stated was untrue: Air NZ is going backwards, and Key was a money trader.

                  • OnceWasTim

                    You seem a little defensive @ Alan.
                    Can you point me to where Muttonbird is claiming to be clever and informed with a suitable degree of bizzniss experience?

                    I’d just like to try and reconcile that with former gNat polititcians’ appointments to boards and positions requiring at least a little understanding of how it’s all ‘sposed to hang together: (the gNats being such good knomic menajizz as they are) – most with bios and profiles claiming such distinction.
                    Are you now suggesting that they should be beyond criticism?

                    Dame Jenny Mainzeal, Sir Douglas Lombard, Sir John Ear NyaZull

                    • Alan

                      No one is beyond criticism, but critics with a degree of experience/knowledge generally garner more respect. Passengers/side line critics, not so much.

                    • Muttonbird

                      They do not like it when you point out the obvious flaws in their hero.

                      Even a layperson knows that the board is responsible for the strategy of a company and it looks like he’s be found wanting. Likewise Jenny Shipley oversaw the collapse of Mainzeal. The National Party has always been described as the only worthy economic managers of NZ government but the reality is they are rubbish at that very job.

                      As I said the right wing doesn’t like it one bit when even a layperson can point out the obvious.

                    • AB

                      “Ear NyaZull” (lol)
                      Alan (“Ellun”?) seems very persistent on the matter, so I want to generalise his position.
                      So something like this:
                      “People cannot detect incompetence in a particular field without having been competent in that field themselves”
                      It’s plausible on the surface I suppose – it almost seems like it might be some downstream effect of Dunning-Kruger. And I can see it might even be true in some very technical areas where incompetence doesn’t become manifest at a macro level – say advanced pure mathematics.
                      But we are only talking about ‘bizniss’ here – something that only the dull boys in the class used to end up in, certainly in my day.
                      So nah – the hypothesis is crap.

                    • KJT

                      It doesn’t take an expert, to know that they broke the law, on one of the most basic of a directors responsibilities.

                      But. If you want an expert opinion, this is well within the range of my qualifications/experience, to comment.

                    • OnceWasTim

                      Well I guess in your world @ Alan, we’ll not be surprised to find a Dame Amie Harcourts, or a SussSoimon Koiwoi (going forward).
                      Oim jiss wondering about Paula though.
                      Could it be a Dame Paula World, or a Dame Paula Caci maybe?
                      She’s got a wealth of spurious for either roll

          • Gabby

            You fishing allywally?

            • Alan

              AB, another passenger

              • AB

                Care to elaborate on this “passenger” theory of yours Alan?
                Does it involve the division of the citizenry into two classes?
                A technocratic elite with expertise (and money) who are not subject to the judgment or criticism of the ‘passenger’ class who are not driving the train and who may be somewhat superfluous to requirements?

                Far be it from me to doubt your democratic instincts – as a passenger I get to exercise only obedience, not doubt, I understand that. But somehow it just seems all a bit stinky to my defective little passenger nostrils. If I wasn’t so intellectually inadequate and linguistically impoverished from all those years of ‘passengering’, I might take you for an authoritarian clown.

  14. NZJester 14

    Speaking of the police;
    Oops, they forgot to investigate the matter of illegal recordings laid with them by the State Services Commission.

  15. joe90 15

    Remember the dude who mansplained ladies bits to women?

    He’s having another go.

    • McFlock 15.1

      One of these days I’m going to track down the tool who first came up with “words have broad and narrow meanings” as an effort to gaslight people into thinking that he didn’t really mean what he explicity said. That fucknuckle’s students have wasted so much e-ink…

      • Muttonbird 15.1.1

        alwyn did this after he explicitly said the Waikato Kiwibuild homes were now “on the open market”.

        Days and days of ‘explanations’ followed.

        • te reo putake

          I recall having a lengthy discussion about what constituted the Chch ‘red zone’ on TS a few years back.

          As I recall it came down to the whether there was generic use of the term to cover all the suburbs affected or whether it was only correct when used to describe the actual streets affected.

          I think there was further insistence that streets where repairs had been completed could no longer be considered part of the red zone.

          It all got quite heated, which looking back now, is pretty OTT.

          • Muttonbird

            The appearance of fake news as a political device used by politicians to attack opponents, and the media to create headlines means occurrences and promotion of it needs to be identified and critiqued quickly and clearly.

            In the case I mentioned above, Stuff created the fake news headline and Nat party lap-dogs including Hosking, Pete George and our own alwyn ran with it.

            It simply isn’t true so I thought it was important to show that quickly and firmly.

    • NZJester 16.1

      I posted the link to the Radio NZ article on the same subject titled “Top cop forgot to act on State Services Commission complaint” at #14

      • Stuart Munro 16.1.1

        Sorry I overlooked it – I’d’ve expected more discussion of it frankly.

        On the whole I’d rather Police forgot the guns and remembered to investigate Thomson & Clark.

        • cleangreen

          100% Stuart behind that proposal.

          “I’d rather Police forgot the guns and remembered to investigate Thomson & Clark.”

    • Anne 16.2

      Stuart Munro @ 16
      Police Deputy commissioner, National Ops. Mike Clement:
      I didn’t action it,” he admitted. “I’ve gone back through my correspondence and found that I didn’t task it on the 18th December when it came through.

      That remark is revealing. The police hate investigating anything with the slightest whiff of malfeasance about it, especially if it involves top pollies and senior public servants. I’m not saying the commissioner wittingly forgot to action the investigation, but to set aside unpalatable inquiries for another day and then forget them altogether is all too common an occurrence. Either that, or they wait an age before reporting their findings by which time everyone has forgotten what the investigation was about and lost interest anyway.

      • Stuart Munro 16.2.1

        I know.

        But a healthy police culture goes after questionable behavior by their own.

        So this just proves the rot is even deeper than we thought. Roastbusters style cop immunity still goes for some it seems, and these uncivilized creatures want to run riot with guns?


        And hell no.

        • JohnSelway

          Many years ago I used to work at the Police National HQ in Wellington. Just doing back office/administration stuff. During the time I was there I would have to sort files out, arrest reports and just standard shift reports and I tell you what – they have a really shitty job at times, in particular the ones on the beat in places like K Road and Courtney Place. Being vomited on (or in the car) abused, sworn at and basically treated like total garbage.

          Because of that experience, the fast majority of cops I actually have respect for them in keeping their cool and dealing with that shit day in day out. I would completely lose my temper.

          That said – there truly are some shitty, rule crazy asshole cops out there. But I don’t think they represent the majority by any stretch.

          • Stuart Munro

            Agreed. But that’s a lot of the reason to keep a separate, more mature and more professional group to deal with armed offenders.

            It’s hard to keep your cool after a day of dealing with surly and uncooperative assholes – but folk with guns had better, or they’re not helping at all.

            • JohnSelway

              Yeah – a dedicated group like the AOS but to deal with less serious offenses than those guys. I think pepper pray and tasers are enough for the beat officers.

              But if I was vomited on a guy who followed it up with “fuck you you fucking pig” I would quickly lose my cool. That’s why I could never be a cop. Though being a detective I would find interesting . Trying to crack a big case – I’m sure it would be a like trying to figure out a big puzzle with multiple lines of investigation then solving it would be a great feeling of success and helping the community. An intellectual challenge even

              • Stuart Munro

                In fact tasers and pepper spray help them much less than they think – they’re also why they get much more abuse these days.

                Tasers were brought in for use against armed and violent assailants, as a less than lethal alternative to guns. Data from one Australian state showed tasers were used much more than presented firearms – over 2000 uses compared to 10-20 firearms uses, in their first year post introduction. That is a massive failure, and, tasers not only fucking hurt, they can kill.

                I saw a fellow get peppered inappropriately in Chch many years ago too. It doesn’t take much of that for citizens to conclude that police are cruel and vicious assholes – a belief that doesn’t help them with their work at all.

                Anything moving the police in the direction of greater paramilitarisation is a dreadful mistake.

                • Anne

                  I have no doubt the police have to put up with one hell of a lot more these days than was once the case. I wouldn’t want to be one of them in a thousand years. That can be blamed on society as a whole and the lack of manners, decency and greed that goes hand in hand with neoliberalism.

                  Nevertheless, too many cops see everything in black and white and the moment a case moves into grey areas they’re out of their comfort zone and prefer to duck for cover. I’ve experienced it and so have plenty of other people.

                  • Anne

                    Martyn Bradbury has posted an interesting take:


                    Haven’t read it all yet, but have much sympathy for his initial comments.

                    I reported a series of incidents 25 years ago which involved surveillance and other intimidatory practices carried out by individuals including some former public service personnel. For my efforts I once again found myself under surveillance… this time by the police.

                    • Stuart Munro

                      Yes. The forgetful individual needs to answer for his actions (or inactions). If his mistake was sincere (which is not impossible), he will be at pains to resolve matters by a rigorous, detailed, and scrupulous investigation of police dealings with Thomson & Clark. If that does not appear with all due deliberate haste, there is no reason his 40 years with the force should be extended to 41.

              • McFlock

                Never was a cop, but dealt with puke and abuse a fair amount back in the day. Abuse is never personal. As soon as folk realised that, they had the right temperament for being a bouncer or whatever.

                Reactions to bodily fluids are more physiological: vomit didn’t usually disturb me too much, but some colleagues would be winding down the car windows and hanging out them whenever someone started to even look like retching. But then I was never ok with shit. Horses for courses, I guess.

                But some of the jobs cops have to do are beyond anything I could handle. Doing a ridealong with them, I recall one of them saying “oh, look, they put a new safety barrier in where my wee girl was killed”, referring to an incident he attended – he took that job to heart so much the deceased became “his”. That’s the shit I wouldn’t handle.

  16. Observer Tokoroa 17

    Alwind is a real find.

    He said yesterday, he ” knows many normal people”. Which can only mean he is not a National idiot, but belongs to some other Circus.

    He has been out counting how many people put their cars in their Garages.

    We have a lot to learn from Alwind. I think he knows how many nights a woman puts her car in her Garage, but not how many nights she leaves it out. If she has a Car.

    It is not easy counting up what women do – or might do.

    Ask Simon and his Mrs Bennett.

  17. Observer Tokoroa 18

    A Life’s Lot – is our Lot

    I traveled recently from Wellington deep into the Waikato in an Intercity Bus. It was good transport and chocker full.

    A fine young Woman was feeding her pretty little child from time to time; We gave her room.

    A pleasant man, a surfie ,a Kiwi of about 40yrs, was a hopping home from Melbourne to see his Mum. Just for a week. He had to get back to his Melbourne Billabong Clothing position.

    The third man was hopping home to see his Mum in Auckland. A fine man – Fit and strong. He became part of us. He said I have been just released from Rimutaka Prison after a lot of years.

    I admired his forthright words. None were over the Top. None were harmful. He was going home to be with his so lost Mum. The Clothing man helped with filling in major documents for the man about to take up his Life with his Mother. Took him to the Bank in the stop at Taupo.

    Weaks later when I got to my own home i asked around about prison. Why cannot we release more Persons. Send them homeward bound ?

    “The prisons are run by the Gangs Sir.” Eye to eye. Nothing more – Nothing less.

    That little child on the Bus was Downs Syndrome . Totally Exquisite. As is my Daughter. So Lovely.

  18. Eco Maori 20

    Kia Emma & Simon from The Nation.
    I say a law need to be made to protect our subcontractors in Aotearoa I say a skeem of the main companies that subcontract out the work pay a deposit into a crown fund or 3 party fund so if the main company goes broke the people who actually build our building do go broke to.
    I say the government needs to build thousands of state houses.
    A lot of people who suffer mental health issues have a difficult time being in public hence they are less likely to be working.
    I,, targeting lower income class does help Maori and Pacific people thanks but more should be dune to lift Maoris Mana. Less stories like the death with a thousand cuts for Maori the malcolm rawiwa story its being plastered on main stream media for decades who cares if it damages Maori Mana A or is that the GOAL.
    There you go you have a neanderthal flogging that same old horse sorry m8 times are changing and carbon is going to be buried.
    The wellbeing of the people should be the way a country measure their success not GDP alone the GDP measures is good for billionaire but not the 99.9 % of people.
    NOT having a capital gains tax is the same good for the millionaire but not good for 95.% of people as the millionaire take our money capital over seas to tax havens and leave little capital money for the next generation our decendints Mokopunas .
    The markets are set up for the wealthy that is why there wealth is exploding and the lower classes are getting poorer.
    I agree we should not be cut and pasting other countries policy’s to try and correct the wrongs in OUR society.
    I say a flat capital gains tax that every thing except the Whanau whare should be taxed shear market ect with a 5 to 10 tax keep it simple is what is needed no loophole for big business to sliver out of paying their dues to the society they suck their capital from and just higher enough so that it costs them just as much to avoid as it does to pay it hence its easier just to pay the TAX. Ka kite ano P.S good to see you back

  19. Eco maori 22

    Ka pai to our government for investing more money into protectioning our indigenous wild life
    Govt to develop new strategy to prevent ‘biodiversity
    The government will develop a new national strategy on biodiversity to try to save the 4000 native species which are threatened or at risk of extinction and stave off a “biodiversity crisis
    Our indigenous plants and wildlife and their habitats are in serious trouble, with 4000 native species threatened or at risk of extinction; including 81 percent of our native birds,” Conservation Minister Eugenie Sage said.

    The strategy will replace the New Zealand Biodiversity Strategy 2000 which expires in 2020.

    Ms Sage said the 2000 programme had been a “landmark document” which helped inspire increased public interest and practical support.

    However, a new strategy was needed to tackle what she called a “biodiversity crisis”.

    The Department of Conservation will work with other government agencies, councils, iwi aaand hapū to set priorities for the future over the next 16 months.

    The minister made the announcement at Ahuriri Estuary, a coastal wetland in Napier.

    “Ecosystems and habitats such as wetlands, native forests, drylands, rivers and sand dunes remain under pressure despite gains in conservation and environmental management over the last 20 years,” Ms Sage said.

    “With many of our native species found nowhere else in the world we have an international responsibility to safeguard them for their own sake, and for present and future generations.

    “Healthy nature and biodiversity are central to human health and wellbeing and our economy. Biodiversity supports industries as diverse as farming, film production and tourism and New Zealand’s international brand.

    “Our kauri forests, kiwi, kākā, katipo spider and coastal fisheries are important in Māori culture and part of our Kiwi identity and way of life la kite ano links below.

  20. Eco Maori 23

    Kia ora Newshub It’s Karma to the West Coast Councils denieing climate change and the environment ruins one of the roads to there best gravy train.
    Yes dredging ruined the Napier beaches the dredging could be used on land as fill it will ruin the fishing and beaches in Auckland.
    My question is what effect the pigeon rotovirous will have on OUR Indigenous Pigeon the Kereru control must be put in place to protect our treasured birds. Can the viruses jump species it could effect other rear treasured birds to.
    That cool that Inmusic Brands is setting up in Aotearoa as these days if you have the bucks and music technology one can become the next big Star from Aotearoa.
    SpaceX is making giant strides in space travel Ka pai Elon.
    Yes rental property owner don’t like pets that is showing shonkys housing SHORT is still working for the millionaire. What about the lost of iron and other micro nutrient it all very well the wealthy can afford to replace meat but common people can not afford the xtra cost of supplements vegetables to replace meat . DARK Phoenix looks cool my favourite movie of the year is Aqua Man Ka kite ano

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