Open mike 01/10/2015

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, October 1st, 2015 - 162 comments
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openmikeOpen mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose. The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

162 comments on “Open mike 01/10/2015”

  1. The Chairman 1

    Farmer John Cochrane said the white knight needed to make his move soon.

    “We can’t disclose who it is but whoever it is needs to go public by the end of the week,” Cochrane said.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/farming/agribusiness/72560581/new-suitor-claimed-to-be-in-wings-for-silver-ferns-farms

    • millsy 1.1

      Lot of unpatriotic comments below that article.

      I cannot help but be disgusted at people who plump for the Chinese takeover of this country. IMO they are no better than those in Europe who collaborated with the Nazi occupiers.

      • Puckish Rogue 1.1.1

        IMO you don’t know what you’re talking about and are resorting to hyperbole

        You seem to have thing about china taking over NZ, its starting to sound a little racist

        • millsy 1.1.1.1

          Says someone who would wave their little Chinese flag when the PLA marches up Queen St, along with O’Sullivan, Farrar, Slater, Williams, Hosking and co.

          Deng Xiao-peng (the man who I regard as the most influential figure over the past 40 years), said that ‘to get rich is glorious’. Meaning that the Chinese put the making of money over all else. Why else do you think there are no enviromental or labour laws in China?

          Soon they will get rid of them here.

        • JanM 1.1.1.2

          For heaven’s sake China is a country – we feel the same way about Australia.

      • The Chairman 1.1.2

        The argument seems to be the Chinese can help provide a distribution network, thus generate further growth. Overlooking that a 50% share of the returns will then go to the Chinese, reducing local return from any new growth.

        Moreover, ignoring the potential the NZ company has to generate its own growth and secure a contract with a major Chinese distributor. Ensuring the benefits of new growth remains in local hands. Not to mention maintaining full company control.

      • Bill 1.1.3

        Know how the ‘money guys’ of this country took the monies we generated and ‘pissed it up the wall’ in a manner of speaking…took it and pumped it into various overseas ‘casino’ type investments, or funneled all the profit streams to their banking mates overseas? And know how most everyone still gets up in the morning and bends over or kneels down for those same guys before they rush out to ‘make a buck’?

        I think your ire is seriously misplaced.

        If money is needed because NZ set itself up as a fucking toilet cistern that flushed everything away to elsewhere, then where the fuck do you think the money is going to come from if not from elsewhere?

        If you’re going to be angry (and I see no reason why you shouldn’t be) then at least be angry at the right people…the ones who have gouged and who continue to gouge this country for all it’s worth.

        • The Chairman 1.1.3.1

          Why can’t she be aggrieved by the actions of both? In some cases, they’re one and the same.

      • Tracey 1.1.4

        ” IMO they are no better than those in Europe who collaborated with the Nazi occupiers.”

        This Chinese Company or the Goverment of China remind you of Nazi Germany?

    • Pasupial 1.2

      I get the feeling that the company has been purposely run into the red to justify the merger with Shanghai Maling. There seems to be quite a disconnection between the board in their nice new corporate offices (in the custom refurbished chief main post office) and the farmer cooperative shareholders. The pressure is definitely now on to get the early votes before any counteroffer can emerge:

      Silver Fern Farms could be facing insolvency if shareholders do not approve a 50:50 joint venture with Chinese company Shanghai Maling.

      Voting has opened on the proposal before a meeting of shareholders at Dunedin’s Forsyth Barr Stadium on October 16…

      The company had carried excessive debt for many years, creating a financial constraint on the operations of the business.

      While debt had been reduced significantly over the last two years and was expected to be about $140million to $160million at the end of September, that was considered to be still too high.

      Due to the highly seasonal nature of the business, there was a very significant investment in net working capital through the season. Depending on the season, that would normally result in peak debt levels up to $200million higher than opening debt.

      http://www.odt.co.nz/news/business/357776/chinese-deal-vital-sff-says

      So really; the base debt is less than the seasonal variation of the business. This all feels like a giant scam.

      • Ad 1.2.1

        New Zealand farmers have had plenty of chances to get local coalitions together.
        They are just freaking lucky Shanghai Mailing isn’t asking for a whole bunch more than 50% control, given the dump trucks of cash they are about to roll in to Silver Fern’s Dunedin headquarters.

        It’s a nice little schadenfreude for all the 19th century Chinese gold miners in Otago who were treated so badly.

        • Puckish Rogue 1.2.1.1

          To be completely honest when you look at all the options that could possibly come to be, China taking over NZ isn’t so bad

          • Ad 1.2.1.1.1

            I get a little melancholic over foreign ownership, particularly when there is Ngai Tahu and plenty of old Otago money that could have had a crack at it.

            Coulda-woulda-shoulda.

            After the melancholy, I remember the political track record of cattle farmers in New Zealand, and it kind of passes.

        • The Chairman 1.2.1.2

          There has been a number of local offers, but its seems the banks don’t support them.

          The Chinese will also be expecting a share of the company’s assets and a return on their money to go with their 50% control.

          I think the Chinese have pushed it to limit. Asking for more now would have blown it for them. They’ll be playing the long game.

        • Pasupial 1.2.1.3

          Ad

          There have been attempts, but getting the board to go along with it is the problem (from The Chairman’s link above):

          Previous reports of an offer by agribusinessman John Rodwell said he had put together a group of New Zealand interests that had offered to put up $40 million for a key stake in Silver Fern Farms (SFF).

          SFF chairman Rob Hewett said at the time the Shanghai Maling offer was made public that the Rodwell offer was a significant amount of money but “wasn’t as good [as Shanghai Maling] and didn’t have banking support at this stage”.

          Fellow meat processor and co-operative Alliance Group said it had also submitted a bid which was rejected.

          Cochrane said shareholders and SFF itself should call the banking consortium’s bluff over calling in its contracts…

          “SFF is not only bankable but provides a genuinely attractive investment proposition. “Why else are foreign investors seeking control?” Cochrane asked.

          SFF’s year end debt of $140m represented only 20 per cent of total assets as opposed to 46 per cent two years previous when the debt was over $300m.

          • Ad 1.2.1.3.1

            … And behind that the members of the Board, whom the Meat Industry Excellence group have tried valiantly to stack, and the vacillating voting supplier farmers.

            As for the Alliance proposal, why the hell the government could not see how close this was to the dairy industry in the early 2000’s prior to the legislated amalgamation into Fonterra. Same for Zespri. Form locally owned entities in the broader interests of New Zealand. Government inaction here is so ridiculous.

      • The Chairman 1.2.2

        @ Pasupial

        Apparently, the Chinese offer has banking support.

        Wherever there is potential to gain, there is always potential for underhanded behaviour.

        However, policing of this in NZ seems rather relaxed.

  2. savenz 2

    If you are wondering why the general public is so uninformed and consumer focused here is a sample of Granddaddy Herald news – (note the online main article about the mega mall is even recycled from a couple of weeks ago! I guess with the Herald redundancies they just have 1 well connected Nat supporting Journo to recycle advertisements and rebundle them into advertorials)
    Mega mall opens today
    Naholo has teammates scrambling
    Big Wednesday: 209 lucky winners
    Apology over parking tickets
    Singer begs NZ ‘Beliebers’ for privacy

    Foreign policy
    Foreign Minister Murray McCully blasts Security Council impotence

    Nothing about Dotcom case or TPPA legal challenge that I can see.

    • Glenn 2.1

      You’re right. The Heralds getting worse. Todays paper is also blatantly pushing an Albany retirement village in an advertorial amongst the news that celebrates International day of older persons.
      “It’s like living in Club Med or on a cruise ship every day,” coos the paper.

      I get enough of that in the free midweek rag that I wrap the rubbish in without getting it in the Herald.

    • Ad 2.2

      Much easier if you think of the NZHerald as a great big full colour advertising spreadsheet, salted with a little gossip and opinion.

      Open the Herald if you want to know what to buy. Which show to go to.
      That’s it.

    • Rosemary McDonald 2.3

      But there is this….

      http://www.nzherald.co.nz/maori/news/article.cfm?c_id=252&objectid=11521631

      which IMHO, is well worth a read.

      • Grindlebottom 2.3.1

        Yeah, Interesting. Pity Granny didn’t allow comments. I bet plenty would’ve been rippers.

        • Rosemary McDonald 2.3.1.1

          Yes, but it would have been dominated by the “Duff’s a Bounty Bar” brigade on one side and the reactionary rednecks on the other.

          And the message he tries to get across…about cultures adapting and changing, and the devolution of traditional power structures is lost.

          He is saying in this piece pretty much verbatim what I have been told in conversations with (mostly) rural Maori.

          Sad.

  3. Reddelusion 3

    Good to see Helen Clark backing the TPP from NY this morning on breakfast and while meeting with John Key

    • mickysavage 3.1

      No she didn’t. She said “So of course New Zealand has to be in on the action with a [TPPA] and go for the very best deal it can.”

      She was talking in generic terms about trade deals.

      Read more: http://www.3news.co.nz/world/john-key-helen-clark-discuss-tppa-2015100107#ixzz3nG5HO7MT

      • Reddelusion 3.1.1

        Semantics Micky, she backs it and realises been out of it is no option

        • mickysavage 3.1.1.1

          Damn semantics if it was not for the actual meaning of words someone could say something and some one else say they said something completely different.

        • The Chairman 3.1.1.2

          “And realises been out of it is no option”

          Without even knowing what we’re signing up too?

          Only an idiot would come to that conclusion.

          • Reddelusion 3.1.1.2.1

            I am sure she and her good friend John have had a chat. Likewise she is no fool and understands how trade deal negotiations work, the benefits there of, as does labour. She only has the benefit of not having to play silly politics to keep the standards readers happy in her statements

      • Puckish Rogue 3.1.2

        So yes to a TPPA but no to this particular TPPA, glad thats cleared up

        • The Chairman 3.1.2.1

          It’s clear she is saying we need to be in on the negotiations, in an attempt to secure a good deal.

          It doesn’t automatically mean we will secure a good deal, thus it’s not an endorsement to sign it.

          • Puckish Rogue 3.1.2.1.1

            I agree, anything less would be a disgrace.

            I was replying to mickysavages dancing on the head of a pin arguement

      • AmaKiwi 3.1.3

        One picture tells you what Helen and Key said in private:

        http://www.3news.co.nz/world/john-key-helen-clark-discuss-tppa-2015100107

        Read their body language. They agreed on NOTHING.

        • Puckish Rogue 3.1.3.1

          Meh, just two alphas jockeying for top position

          • The Gormless Fool formerly known as Oleolebiscuitbarrell 3.1.3.1.1

            It doesn’t automatically mean we will secure a good deal, thus it’s not an endorsement to sign it.

            Who has any position other than this?

            • maui 3.1.3.1.1.1

              Probably all those people who have vigorously defended this agreement for many months and attacked anyone against it. If they truly looked at deals based on face value they could have stayed quiet until the deal is on the table.

              • The Gormless Fool formerly known as Oleolebiscuitbarrell

                If they truly looked at deals based on face value they could have stayed quiet until the deal is on the table.

                There’s only one side being noisy.

      • Bob 3.1.4

        “No she didn’t. She said “So of course New Zealand has to be in on the action with a [TPPA] and go for the very best deal it can.””

        Nice selective quoting, What she actually said was:
        “What always haunts one as the New Zealand Prime Minister is ‘will there be a series of trade blocks you’re not part of?’. Because that’s unthinkable for New Zealand, an exporter and small trading nation. So of course New Zealand has to be in on the action with the TPP and go for the very best deal it can.”

    • The Chairman 3.2

      Not really, but its to be expected.

    • Bill 3.3

      I’d hardly expect Helen Clark, given her current position in the UN, to speak out against the NZ Government’s position on the TPPA.

      Also, given that she was a proponent of free trade (eg – China, and trying to open discussions with the USA ) and seeing as how she has never, not to my knowledge, changed her position on free trade, then I’d guess she might do no more than harbour private concerns about the government’s ‘game plan’.

      But sure, carry on with the tribal spear throwing…

    • Tracey 3.4

      Good to see Key supporters admiring Clark’s opinion

      • Puckish Rogue 3.4.1

        Theres quite a lot to admire about Ms Clark which is why John Key has modelled quite a bit of his leadership on her

        You’d think successive Labour leaders would try to emulate more of her style

        • Grindlebottom 3.4.1.1

          She had a knack with TV reporters of thinking quickly while speaking slowly and very succinctly. I think she scared them more than Key does. Like Muldoon. And it worked. Key charms them. And it works. Labour’s leaders struggle with who to emulate I suspect.

  4. alwyn 4

    I hope that the Green MPs, and their supporters, are feeling embarrassed when they read this story in the Dom/Post this morning.
    http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/72564945/super-fund-and-infratil-set-to-make-400pc-return-on-z-energy-stake
    If it is accurate we must be truly grateful that they, and their fellow idiots in the Labour Party had no influence on the New Superannuation funds policies in the last few years. Adopting the “no investment in fossil fuels” strategy as advocated by Russel Norman would have cost the fund about $3 million per day if this story is correct.
    I trust all those who supported the Green view will now apologise.

    • JanM 4.1

      30 pieces of silver, eh?

    • JanM 4.2

      30 pieces of silver, eh?

    • Ad 4.3

      NZSuper Fund has found plenty of other ways to make landfills full of cash other than fossil fuels for quite some time. If the Greens were in power and retooled the NZSuper governing legislation for that criteria, the world would not end.

    • Macro 4.4

      How much will it cost the planet – and your grandchildren?
      But you don’t give a shit about that so I don’t expect you have ever thought about it – just so long as no 1 is ok!

      • Draco T Bastard 4.4.1

        +1

        Exactly. Making money out of something that kills you isn’t a winning position.

    • weka 4.5

      “I trust all those who supported the Green view will now apologise.”

      Why? Their view is that fossil fuel divestment is critical to minimise AGW damage and all that that entails, and that this outweighs making shitloads of money.

      I trust now you will apologise to everyone’s grandchildren.

  5. Nessalt 5

    Where is the coverage of the Kim Dotcom extradition case? now we are in court i notice all his cheerleaders here and on the daily blog are awfully silent. Is it because the fat german isn’t what he made himself out to be and everyone rushed to friend him as he was against John Key?

    this is the real moment of truth.

    • Reddelusion 5.1

      My enemies enemy is my friend, nothing else matters

      The left cuddling up to this fruadster is becoming a little uncomfortable

      • mickysavage 5.1.1

        It is in court so we need to be careful what we comment on. And remind me where TS authors cuddled up to Dotcom.

      • Puckish Rogue 5.1.2

        I’ve always believed that the enemy of my enemey might also be my enemy as well, something the left in NZ doesn’t quite understand

        • AmaKiwi 5.1.2.1

          Which enemy?

          1. John Key
          2. Judith Collins
          3. US style police tactics and spying
          4. the empire that will impose its laws on anyone, anywhere

          • Puckish Rogue 5.1.2.1.1

            The left feting and promoting KDC and making the pilgrimage to Mecca (sorry) the pilgrimage to Coatsville told enough of the voters all they needed to know and they voted accordingly

            • mickysavage 5.1.2.1.1.1

              Citation please. A visit by Russel Norman for a chat does not make a pilgrimage by the left.

              • weka

                esp given Norman went there to ask KDC to not form the IP because of the damage it would do.

                • Tracey

                  Really? I didn’t know that Norman has said why he went? Mind you I would have been looking for it in MSM

                  • weka

                    Just double checked. He talked to KDC about the IT sector, and about not forming the IP incase it meant National got back in.

                    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11200563

                    • alwyn

                      Or to put it a little more accurately you could start by saying that
                      “Russel Norman claims that he” etc, etc.
                      Still, I suppose we should simply accept that Russel is a politician and like all of them he would say anything he thought he could get away with.

                      Rather like Corbyn in a way. There is a story in the Dom/Post today. It is on page B1 but I can’t find it on-line. Apparently in his speech to the Party Conference big sections were lifted from a speech originally written by a free-lancer in the 1980’s and which has been offered to every Labour leader since. They all declined to use it.
                      Corbyn’s spokesman originally denied the source of the material and claimed similarities were “pure coincidence” Finally he had to admit that his team had spoken to the original author.
                      Why do left leaders feel the need to lie as a first option about things that really don’t matter?

                    • weka

                      Alwyn, I know that you work for Crosby Textor* and they don’t have to pay you particularly well because you are an ideological willing worker. So of course you are going to tell lies about politics and do so in a creepy smeary way rather than just coming out with it and saying you hate the GP.

                      *see how that works? Smear, smear.

                      I don’t believe all politicians lie, so am happy to judge each on their behaviour. Norman has no reason to lie in that situation and his account is entirely plausible so I’m happy enough to go with his version.

                    • HI alwyn,

                      Background concerning Corbyn’s use of Richard Heller’s words:

                      I discovered for the first time that Corbyn had used the passage almost exactly in the form I offered it to him (and others). I also discovered that some British media were suggesting that his use was unauthorised. This is quite untrue. I am delighted that the passage has been used, and am sorry that a spurious story might detract from its message. I have many disagreements with Corbyn, but I now have to admire his rhetorical judgment. On the issues where I agree with him, particularly on fundamental values of his party and mine, he is welcome to call on me for other uplifting and memorable tropes.

                    • alwyn

                      @Puddleglum.

                      I wasn’t aware that a paper, or papers was claiming that Corbyn didn’t have permission to use the material. That isn’t really relevant though is it?
                      Corbyn’s problem is that his spokesman’s first reaction seems to have been to deny that it was written by someone else and wasn’t directly written by Corbyn. He claimed that the same words being used was “pure coincidence”. Then he was forced to back-down and admit that they had spoken to the original author and that the words did come from Heller. If the spokesman didn’t know, which is possible but seems unlikely, he could simply have said something like “I don’t know where the original material came from. I’ll find out.” Then he could say later that it came unsolicited from Heller and that Corbyn liked it, or something like that.
                      It is the original denial that becomes the story. If they had started by saying that the ideas had come from Heller in the first place there would have been no story would there? It was lying about it and then having to admit to the lie that caused all the problem.

                    • alwyn,

                      I was providing background for those who might not have known what you were talking about.

                      As I understand it, the article reprinted in The Press/Dom Post was from the Daily Telegraph, wasn’t it? Something about another faux pas in a beleaguered leadership?

                      Why are you so quick to call it a ‘lie’? You yourself provide a quite believable account of how it could have been a minor error on the part of a spokesman.

                      Haven’t ‘lefties’ here been accused of wrongly calling Key himself (much less one of his spokespeople) a liar despite having much stronger grounds for the claim than is present here?

              • Puckish Rogue

                http://www.nzherald.co.nz/entertainment/news/article.cfm?c_id=1501119&objectid=11201739

                Labour MP Clare Curran, who hails from the Deep South, was at Dotcom’s Coatesville estate “at least twice, and once with a large suitcase”, a source said. She caught a taxi once and was chauffeured another time. But why the baggage?

                Curran confirmed she did go to the mansion twice, but can’t recall travelling heavy.

                “I was probably on my way to or from home,” she told The Diary.

                Theres probably more that managed to fly under the radar

            • Tracey 5.1.2.1.1.2

              Pretty sure the Right have had more people at (and surrounding) Coatseville than the Left.

              Everything Key says is not true PR, and his laughing jibes about all of the left and KDC are patently false. Even on this site the left and the left have attacked each other over KDC damage tot he election.

              • Puckish Rogue

                Yes I wasn’t clear enough, there are some on the left with integrity and principles and they did say, prior to the election, that KDC wasn’t going to help the left and good on them for saying that (you know who you are) but sadly they’re in the minority

        • Tracey 5.1.2.2

          I await the day when you realise your friend (Key) is really your enemy).

          • Puckish Rogue 5.1.2.2.1

            All politicians are my enemy, its merely a matter of who is going to have the least amount of impact on my life

        • Draco T Bastard 5.1.2.3

          We understand it just fine. It’s National and their supporters who keep having us cuddling up to those who are bad for NZ.

    • Chooky 5.2

      @ Nessalt and Reddelusion… Does this help?…obviously you can’t read..or haven’t read and got up to date on Dotcom trial:

      ‘The Government can’t find the original notices in the Kim Dotcom case? Is this a joke?’

      http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2015/09/30/the-government-cant-find-the-original-notices-in-the-kim-dotcom-case-is-this-a-joke/

      Also getting up to date with Nicky Hager :

      ‘Police plotted to arrest and spy on Nicky Hager – the most interesting parts of 1 year on from Dirty Politics ‘

      http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2015/09/30/police-plotted-to-arrest-and-spy-on-nicky-hager-the-most-interesting-parts-of-1-year-on-from-dirty-politics/

      • Pasupial 5.2.1

        Plus this yesterday on NRT, and reposted on this very site:

        Kim Dotcom’s extradition hearing is currently underway, and it appears to have hit a hurdle: the government can’t find key documentation… A key question in extradition hearings is whether the supporting documents have been produced to the court. The fact that they can’t do that (and apparently failed to follow due process in briefing the Minister, creating instant grounds for judicial review) makes them look like a bunch of muppets.

        NRT: Muppets

      • Puckish Rogue 5.2.2

        I wouldn’t worry about it too much Chooky, KDC will eventually get his day in court (american court that is) where he’ll be finally be able to prove the veracity of his claims

        + 100

        • Macro 5.2.2.1

          I wouldn’t be so sure – and neither were Sony.

        • Draco T Bastard 5.2.2.2

          Everything looking like the US and NZ governments getting egg all over their face with all charges against KDC being dropped.

          • keepLeft 5.2.2.2.1

            They have “found” the paper work. Yeah right. More lies. Let have them put them online so we can verify them!

            #savekim

    • Tracey 5.3

      You mean apart from comment sin Open Mike and other places? Oh and the entire post about the stuff up the MOJ has made of the warrant and other paperwork?

      IF the MSM is quiet, you might want to ask yourself why.

  6. Chooky 6

    The other side of the story:

    ‘Russian military in Syria: ‘Diametrically different approach’

    https://www.rt.com/op-edge/317035-syria-isis-russia-troops/

    “The key difference between the Russian and Western campaigns in Syria is that Moscow has been asked for help Damascus officially, unlike the US who “neither waited for the Syrian government to ask for help, nor had a mandate from the UN,” experts say.

    ‘Washington gives tacit support’

    “US’ “tacit support” for the Russian operation is a major change to its previous stance, and the reason is that “the Western bombing of Islamic State has been a complete failure,” says John Laughland, Director of Studies, Institute of Democracy and Cooperation in Paris.

    “We know that Washington and Moscow are cooperating and that Washington is giving tacit support. It’s precisely the result of the meeting that occurred in the UN building between presidents Putin and Obama. Moscow would inform Washington about its airstrikes in order to prevent any kind of accidents, any kind of conflict breaking out,” he said….

    • The Chairman 6.1

      Obama wants Assad (a democratically elected leader) replaced.

      Can one imagine the US response if it were Assad saying Obama should go?

    • Puckish Rogue 7.1

      No no you don’t understand, she was only talkign about TPPAs in general, not this specific TPPA

      There is a difference apparantly 🙂

    • The Chairman 7.2

      See my post at 3.1.2.1

    • Macro 7.3

      What else would you expect from her – she is as wedded to the FTA’s as Grocer and equally misguided. Who was it that pushed through our disastrous FTA with China? And where are we now? Billions in debt. Unemployment around 6% and no sign of reducing, 25% of youth under and unemployed. 25% of our children living in poverty, underfunding of health and record numbers of people living on the streets or in shoddy housing. All the result of exporting jobs overseas and importing crap from off shore. FTA’s are so good for us arn’t they.

      • marty mars 7.3.1

        + 1

        These ‘trade’ agreements are bogus trojan horses full of nasty capitalists.

      • Draco T Bastard 7.3.2

        +1

        The free-marketeers don’t seem to understand that if we had the level playing field that is necessary for free-trade to work none would happen.

        • Macro 7.3.2.1

          The thing is tho Draco – it’s not even a level playing field. NZ has to be the most naive of all nations when it comes to opening our borders to all manner of crap. And the amazing thing is – after 30 years of this idiocy – will still expect other countries to do the same as us! Here we think we have this amazing deal with China when we can export unsawn logs and get wine bottles in return! We can’t export sawn timber – China won’t allow that – they want the jobs of saw milling for themselves. Similarly with almost every other product. We allow carte blanche the importation of almost every imaginable product thereby under cutting almost all of our productive capacity – in the hope that we can export the unprocessed product of of our agriculture, fisheries and forestry.This is the only “economic” plan that NZ has had since 1984. And we wonder why our economy is so sick.
          I know I’m preaching to the converted here – you understand this as well if not better than I. But we – u and me and the others on here have to keep repeating this theme because it is only when the penny finally drops with those wedded to the “conventional wisdom” will we ever be able to move ahead as a country

    • Tracey 7.4

      So, you cite Clark when you agree with her?

    • The Chairman 8.1

      Another beat up and appeal to the ignorant.

      The image was used as an visual affect. The fact that it was a stillborn is largely irrelevant as the image of an aborted child (in the context of discussion) would have been similar.

      However, they should have foreseen this type of attack, thus used real footage.

      And no, they’re not a terrorist organization.

      • McFlock 8.1.1

        Did it occur to you than an abortion in those circumstances (late term, 20+ weeks) would be more likely because of medical necessity than an unwanted pregnancy?

        Interesting stat on infoshare: 67 out of 13,000 abortions occurred after the twentieth week of gestation.

        The image was used “as visual effect” in order to misrepresent the issue of abortion.

        • The Chairman 8.1.1.1

          If the visual affect is the same, where is the misrepresentation?

          • weka 8.1.1.1.1

            try asking women about the differences between miscarrying and having an abortion.

            The anti-abortion activists lied in a fairly gross and manipulative way, and got caught out, what’s do hard to understand about that?

            • The Chairman 8.1.1.1.1.1

              Try sticking to the context of the discussion.

              The image was used as an visual affect. The fact that it was a stillborn is largely irrelevant as the image of an aborted child (in the context of the discussion) would have been similar.

              What’s so hard to understand about that?

              If the visual affect is the same, where is the manipulation?

          • McFlock 8.1.1.1.2

            What “visual effect” are you talking about?

            A near-term still-birth is not anatomically (let alone “visually”) “the same” as 99.5% of abortions, and the abortions that might look the same probably took place as a result of a medical emergency in order to save a life that actually exists, rather than one that potentially, in your imagination, might exist.

            • The Chairman 8.1.1.1.2.1

              The one were an image of a stillborn was used.

              In the context of discussion, the visual representation in this case is the same, regardless if the baby was a stillborn or aborted.

              I’m not questioning the legitimacy of an abortion, I’m concerned about the goings on before and after the fact.

              • McFlock

                In the context of discussion, the visual representation in this case is the same, regardless if the baby was a stillborn or aborted.

                And you assert that based on what?

                • The Chairman

                  On the information I’ve seen. Thus, they are being challenged on the use of the stillborn image and not the actual visual comparison.

                  • McFlock

                    Well, forgive me if I don’t take your word for it.

                    After all, the discussion is about somebody making misleading claims about illegal footage in order to further their political agenda.

                    How do you know that the “information you have seen” wasn’t similarly lied about?

                    • The Chairman

                      Don’t take my word for it. Use you own commonsense.

                      A stillborn at 20 weeks would generally be as developed as a aborted foetus at 20 weeks. Thus, the visual comparison is the same.

                      ROBERTS: Lexi, do you hope that the organization that put together this video reaches out and apologizes to you or offers any sort of explanation?

                      LEXI FRETZ: No. I have talked to them directly and we’ve cleared the air and my husband and I are fine that it’s been used.

                      http://www.lifenews.com/2015/09/29/msnbc-got-a-big-surprise-while-pushing-its-abortion-agenda-on-mom-of-this-stillborn-baby/

                      Seems it’s no longer illegal use.

                    • McFlock

                      the only thing that the two foetuses necessarily have in common is that neither is ever going to be a living human being, and even a healthy foetus is not viable at that stage.

                      In addition to the differences in mode of leaving the woman’s body, your assumption is that serious developmental differences were not the reason for the fact of the stillbirth or the need for the medical procedure of abortion.

        • The Chairman 8.1.2.1

          No, it doesn’t.

          Hence, they’re not officially considered a terrorist organization.

          Therefore, claiming so is incorrect, but continuing to do so assists your smear-tactic affect.

          • McFlock 8.1.2.1.1

            Would you prefer “an organisation with leaders closely connected to a terrorist organisation” as a more accurate description? It doesn’t really improve their reputation.

        • The Chairman 8.1.2.2

          No evidence of manipulation in Planned Parenthood videos

          http://www.adfmedia.org/files/CoalfireCMPvideosReport.pdf

          • joe90 8.1.2.2.1

            That you’re citing rabid hate machine the Alliance Defending Freedom makes me think you should fuck off back to where you belong.

            Partnered with more than 300 like-minded institutions, including the Federalist Society, the Home School Legal Defense Association, the rabidly anti-LGBT Pacific Justice Institute, the Thomas More Law Center, anti-gay hate group the Family Research Council, the Heritage Foundation, and the now-defunct “ex-gay” organization Exodus International.

            • Filed a brief supporting statutory bans on gay sex in Lawrence v. Texas, the 2003 case in which the Supreme Court ultimately found state anti-sodomy laws unconstitutional.
            • Opposed anti-bullying efforts in public schools, calling for exceptions for speech or actions based on religious views and decrying “tolerance training” and “special protection” for LGBT students.
            • Created its own “Day of Truth” to combat the Day of Silence, which commemorates LGBT victims of bullying, harassment, and violence.
            • Crusaded against a gay-inclusive Boy Scouts of America, calling the BSA’s decision to allow gay scouts an assault on “freedom” and working with churches that sponsor scout troops to work around the new membership policy.
            • Defended California’s same-sex marriage ban, Proposition 8, in Hollingsworth v. Perry.
            • Offered free representation to Iowa county recorders who refused to provide same-sex couples with marriage licenses.
            • Dispatched chief counsel Benjamin Bull to Russia to meet with Yelena Mizulina, the legislative leader of that country’s crackdown on LGBT people.
            • Represented 18 plaintiffs challenging the Affordable Care Act’s requirement that for-profit employers cover contraception at no additional cost to employees.

            http://mediamatters.org/blog/2013/12/04/meet-alliance-defending-freedom-foxs-favorite-a/197132

            [lprent: Please be a little more careful when you paste crap HTML into our pages. It “FUBAR’ed” the page because

            1. you put in li tags without an enclosing ul or ol
            2. you started with a i tag and didn’t close it (besides you should have used blockquote and /blockquote)

            I manually fixed it. But this isn’t something that I plan to make a career of. ]

            • The Chairman 8.1.2.2.1.1

              Wake up.

              I’m citing a independent report prepared by Coalfire Systems, Inc.

              I see you’re still playing the smear-tactic game.

              One can only assume you have nothing credible to put forward.

              • joe90

                One can only assume you have nothing credible to put forward.

                *sniff*

                joe90 …
                30 August 2015 at 10:17 am

                Planned Parenthood commissioned an independent review of the videos and the conclusion – yet another dishonest smear campaign waged by unhinged, deceptive anti-choice arseholes.

                A thorough review of these videos in consultation with qualified experts found that they do not present a complete or accurate record of the events they purport to depict.
                Each release by CMP contained a short edited video, between eight and fifteen minutes in length, that intercuts clips from the undercover recordings with other content, and a “full footage” video that claims to provide the raw, unedited footage of each interview. A video forensics expert, a television producer, an independent transcription agency, and Fusion GPS staff reviewed this material. While these analysts found no evidence that CMP inserted dialogue not spoken by Planned Parenthood staff, their review did conclude that CMP edited content out of the alleged “full footage” videos, and heavily edited the short videos so as to misrepresent statements made by Planned Parenthood representatives. In addition, the CMP transcript for the “full footage” video shot at Planned Parenthood’s Gulf Coast facility in Texas differs substantially from the content of the tape.
                At this point, it is impossible to characterize the extent to which CMP’s undisclosed edits and cuts distort the meaning of the encounters the videos purport to document. However, the manipulation of the videos does mean they have no evidentiary value in a legal context and cannot be relied upon for any official inquiries unless supplemented by CMP’s original material and forensic authentication that this material is supplied in unaltered form. The videos also lack credibility as journalistic products.

                Open mike 30/08/2015

                • The Chairman

                  Yes, I’ve seen the report, hence I posted a link to another independent review refuting it.

                  • joe90

                    Yes, I’ve seen the report, hence I posted a link to another independent review refuting it.

                    But you can’t be arsed citing the independent review refuting it.

            • joe90 8.1.2.2.1.2

              I manually fixed it. But this isn’t something that I plan to make a career of

              Yeah, apologies, blockquote it is then – thought the i > would work but obviously not

  7. Penny Bright 9

    FYI

    URGENT! TPPA – WALK AWAY! PROTEST! TODAY 1 October 2015

    Focus – John Key / shareholder in Bank of America!

    Have new petition focused on John Key + plenty of TPPA leaflets!

    Plus banners / placards / John Key / Tim Groser masks / street theatre!

    WHEN: Today 1 October 2015
    TIME: 3 – 5.30pm
    WHERE: Outside Auckland University
    Symonds St / Grafton Rd intersection
    _____________________________________________________

    WORDING OF NEW PETITION:

    To Prime Minister John Key
    MP for Helensville

    We, the undersigned:

    Are deeply concerned that as a key advocate for the ‘Trans-PacificPartnership Agreement’ (TPPA), you are a shareholder in the Bank of America, as detailed in the 2015 MPs Register of Financial Interests: (Pg 29)

    “Rt Hon John Key (National, Helensville)
    2 Other companies and business entities
    ………………………………………….
    Bank of America – banking”

    We see this as a serious ‘conflict of interest’, given that big banks like the Bank of America, stand to benefit, and profit from this pro-corporate TPPA.

    If this National Government, which you lead, does not ‘walk away’ from the secretive, undemocratic, ‘Trans-Pacific Partnership Agreement’ (TPPA), then we pledge to campaign vigorously amongst our friends, families, neighbours and workmates, for the voting public to ‘walk away’ from National.
    ______________________________________________________________________________________

    Penny Bright

    ……

    ‘Anti-corruption / anti-privatisation Public Watchdog’

    2016 Auckland Mayoral candidate

  8. Penny Bright 10

    FYI

    ‘Open Letter’ to Auckland Mayor and Councillors / ALL MPs / Media:

    “Please provide evidence proving that I have ever stated anything that was factually inaccurate, concerning Auckland Council, or Auckland Council CCOs.”

    Kind regards

    Penny Bright

    …………………..

    ‘Anti-corruption / anti-privatisation Public Watchdog’

    ………………..

    2016 Auckland Mayoral candidate

  9. Tracey 11

    It’s over. In my opinion TPP will pass this weekend. Key is being to smirky

    • b waghorn 11.1

      Let’s hope all the pressure applied from many different groups in nz has made get a deal worth having.

      • Puckish Rogue 11.1.1

        It was always going to be a good deal for NZ, you lefties will not be able to stand there and take credit for it

        • maui 11.1.1.1

          Be interesting to see the public reaction to this “good deal”.

        • b waghorn 11.1.1.2

          Oh come on you know key is just a little puppy who is addicted to pats ,he’ll try and please any one who is vocal enough.
          I suspect he’s got father issues.

  10. Draco T Bastard 12

    Oops. somebody broke it. Looks like it could be This one but I could be wrong on that.

  11. b waghorn 13

    http://m.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=11521631
    Alan Duff doesn’t pull his punches. I would find it hard to disagree with what he has to say.

  12. SPC 14

    When Oz signed a FTA with China – they retained their right to block foreign buying of property and they got a better deal on dairy than we did.

    When we signed one, we gave Chinese the same rights to invest here as those in Oz, and that included property ownership.

    Our negotiators are second rate.

    But what could we expect we gave the world free trade for nothing, all we have left to give is governance sovereignty.

    Back in the 80’s the left of the Labour caucus took pineapple lumps (nuclear free status) and gave away the economy to the free market. A position on Cabinet and a chance to be leader by adhering to the deal. Once one learns that the climb up the ladder is enabled by betraying those below, there is no position that is then out of reach.

  13. Morrissey 15

    When did Jim Mora and co EVER discuss the TPPA seriously?
    The Panel, Radio NZ National, Thursday 1 October 2015
    Jim Mora, Beck Eleven, Kevin Milne

    After noting that the old trougher Helen Clark has undermined the Labour Party by backing the TPPA [1], host Jim Mora then said: “We’re not having another big discussion about the TPPA now…”

    “Another big discussion”? I would appreciate it if someone tell us when Mora’s light chat show dealt with the TPPA in more than a perfunctory, scoffing fashion, leave alone any “big discussion”.

    The only topics that Mora—or more likely, Richard Griffin—deals with in any depth are coffee, football and vexillology.

    Anything else gets the once-over-lightly. [2]

    [1] http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/72604363/former-pm-clark-backs-controversial-trade-deal

    [2] /open-mike-20082015/#comment-1060938

  14. Paul 16

    Mora’s appalling panel discuss declining ratings on TV3 without even mentioning the boycott of the channel after the political axing of Campbell Live.
    Self censorship or total ignorance by the woeful panel.

    Mora must have self censored.
    His Tory bones doesn’t allow debate of topics that question his comfortable life.

    • Morrissey 16.1

      Well spotted Paul. But why did neither Beck Eleven nor Kevin Milne dare to mention it? My bet is that they know that “management”, i.e. John Key’s man Richard Griffin, would not approve, so they kept silent.

      Obviously they both need the money.

  15. Ffloyd 17

    Mora is on now. No idea what they are saying. It’s just white noise. Regarding Clark. A while ago my husband told me he had been speaking to a Nat. Party stalwart who told him that at a Nat P meeting they were told that according to a local NP mp that NZ would be shocked if they knew how often Clark had flown into NZ to have secret meetings with key. I scorned the idea but am now wondering if there is some truth in it. Also, has she seen the text that is so secret, if so is she happy that the good citizens of NZ are being treated like mushrooms.

    • Morrissey 17.1

      Helen Clark’s unwelcome re-entry into New Zealand politics, unsurprisingly endorsing the undemocratic and secretive National government, is a reminder how little serious scrutiny has been carried out on her actions in government. (The foul abuse and ridiculous campaigns by the likes of David Farrar, Whaleoil, Ian Wishart and the rest of the National Party’s foaming right wing army do not qualify as serious.)

      Chris Laidlaw gave her a free and uninterrupted platform last year….

      Open mike 06/01/2014

      As did Lisa Owen a couple of months ago….

      Open mike 29/08/2015

      The only decent grilling she ever got was by John Campbell.

    • lprent 17.2

      Helen comes to NZ quite a few times each year, usually as a leg on one of the enormous trips that her work requires. They are hardly a secret – they show up on facebook. Her husband Peter lives here and so do her parents. I rather suspect that has more to do with it than with anything else. /irony

      But being at the UNDP and with NZ trying to get onto the security council (and now on it), it isn’t that surprising that John Key was trying to catch her when she was here.

      It is probably like the amount that every kiwi politicians and diplomat going to New York seems to try to get a meeting with her if she is in town. Just like they try to get time with whoever is the ambassador and/or their staff if they get to Washington. It is about getting local information. /sarc

      Not everything is about the damn TPPA /irritation

      I suspect that when we finally find out what is in the TPPA, it is going to be way worse than expected even two years ago. I’ll disagree with Helen unless I can see a considerable movement from what has been leaked. The problems it is going to cause for the tech export industry alone is going to be immense.

      • Anne 17.2.1

        Thanks for that lprent.

        It beggars belief how so many people create false conspiracies about everything Helen does. And she’s always been open about her travels and activities. Since her mother died, she phones her Dad (now in his nineties) every day. She and her husband hook up whenever they can – she comes to NZ whenever she can fit it in… he goes to her in New York 2 or 3 times a year. That’s my understanding anyway.

        In other words, her trips to NZ are for personal reasons and have nothing to do with politics. Of course she keeps in touch with friends she made during her political years, but she made it clear from the start of her new career that NZ politics was out of bounds as far as she was concerned. All the indications are: she has kept strictly to that resolution.

    • Anne 17.3

      Ffloyd, that is mischief-making on the part of the National Party dirty tricks brigade. You know, the one ‘wot John Key knows nuffink about’ even though it was closely linked to his office.

      In the last term of the Clark govt. some of the malice ridden fantasies spread around about Helen – and indeed her husband – were utterly grotesque. The worst were by word of mouth because if they had appeared in print, the courts would have been submerged in defamation suits brought by all manner of people.

  16. Morrissey 18

    “I think Story‘s a GREAT show! I think Heather’s doing BRILLIANTLY.”
    Kevin Milne’s ludicrously false praise does his reputation no good at all.

    The Panel, Radio NZ National, Thursday 1 October 2015
    Jim Mora, Beck Eleven, Kevin Milne

    Since John Key’s man Richard Griffin has obviously forbidden him from dealing with anything “boring” (i.e., serious) during his program, host Jim Mora has to find SOMETHING to talk about each day. So the program is full of chatter, over a bed of endless laughter, about virtually meaningless trivia taken straight off the bottom of the page on Google News.

    This afternoon, casting about desperately for something to take up five minutes or so in the last part of the program, Mora noted that Television One’s god-awful Rawdon Christie vehicle, Breakfast, had been canned. This led on to a bit of chat about the (possibly terminal) decline of TV3. Utterly unmemorable, except for this horrible example of misplaced loyalty to a friend by Kevin Milne….

    KEVIN MILNE: I think Story‘s a GREAT show! I think Heather’s doing BRILLIANTLY….

    As time is almost up, the host utters one of the few straight-up statements he’s made in weeks….

    JIM MORA: We’ve got ninety seconds. Now, uh, we can’t speak very usefully about Islamic State….

    Masochists and aficionados of the comedy of mortification may like to check out just how “BRILLIANTLY” Heather is doing…..

    Open mike 24/08/2015

    • Grindlebottom 18.1

      Are you sure he said it’s the Breakfast show that’s been canned?

      I know the Good Morning show’s going to be axed in December (no loss really, it’s pretty much just compered infomercials from what little I’ve seen).
      http://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/tv-radio/72506926/tvnzs-good-morning-show-to-be-axed

      I haven’t heard or been able to find anything suggesting Breakfast ‘s for the chop as well though.

      • Morrissey 18.1.1

        Thanks for that, my friend. I knew it was too much to hope that Christie and co. had been consigned to the scrap-heap.

        I’ll miss Good Morning; it was so bad and so crass it was almost a masterpiece.

        Highlights include:

        1.) Wallace Chapman, Willie Jackson and Miles Davis discussing “relationship woes”….

        Open mike 08/06/2013

        2.) Jeanette Thomas interviewing a foolish luvvie who vapoured moronically about the Anders Breivik massacre without mentioning that he was a Christian or a terrorist….

        Open mike 28/08/2015

  17. Mike the Savage One 19

    So the government’s “investment approach” to social security is NOT really a proper investment approach, according to Bill Rosenberg from the CTU:

    http://union.org.nz/sites/union.org.nz/files/Investment%20Approach%20is%20not%20an%20investment%20approach%20-%20Rosenberg_0.pdf

    Yet more proof of the flawed welfare reforms we have been served up!

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