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Open mike 04/09/2022

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, September 4th, 2022 - 113 comments
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113 comments on “Open mike 04/09/2022 ”

  1. Stephen D 1

    This is not our usual fare, but still needs discussion. Gareth Morgan was right all along. All cats should be kept inside from dusk to dawn. And this from someone who loves, and always had, cats.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/129751587/giant-feral-cats-are-absolute-muscle-from-dining-out-on-the-best-native-wildlife

    • PsyclingLeft.Always 1.1

      Hi Stephen. Well the feral cat carnage is a thing I was going to put up recently too. And agree no cat "hater" here…..

      But

      Feral cats are estimated to number in the millions.

      "We have to have a conversation about it if we're going to ensure our unique, endangered wildlife doesn't become extinct. And it’s not about being anti-cat," says Tamsin Orr-Walker, chair of Kea Conservation Trust.

      Predator Free New Zealand Trust chief executive Jessi Morgan says they are one of New Zealand's worst ecological problems because of the "impact a single cat can have".

      "Our native species aren't equipped to deal with them," she says.

      https://www.rnz.co.nz/programmes/the-detail/story/2018830005/we-need-to-talk-about-feral-cats

      Possums….are predators of eggs and chicks. Feral cats are predators….of everything small that moves. And not just for food !

    • Bearded Git 1.2

      I catch cats in traps in my garden and shoot them.

      If 1000's more did this in NZ the cat problem would be under control. Many areas now have "back-yard trapping" organisations. If you don't have an organisation in your area then set one up.

      I bought my trap, which also catches stoats, possums and hedgehogs, online for about $65.

    • Patricia Bremner 1.3

      This keeping cats in at night has been law in Australia for ages, and it works, though their bird life numbers are falling along with native flowering plants and insects, which imo is a contributor to losses.

    • Graeme 1.4

      It's often counter-productive when the debate around introduced pests goes down the single species path. Aotearoa has a comprehensive suite of introduced pest species that in a very short time has evolved an interdependence on each other as well as annihilating our indigenous biodiversity.

      Removing one species often / usually provides an opportunity for species down the food chain to prosper. Sometimes these species are indigenous and we think we've done really well, other times the primary beneficiary is other introduced pests.

      In local example a very large number of ferrets were removed from and area to manage a TB hotspot, now the same area has a rabbit problem that is proving very difficult to resolve, there's other factors at play in in this case around collective responsibility for rabbit control but this was the case before the ferrets were targeted and they were able to control their rabbits to a degree.

      We need to focus on all introduced pests, and all at the same time in a co-ordinated way, to make an impact on the appalling state of our indigenous bio-diversity. This is a big ask as some introduced species, cats in particular, are hard, and get harder the further you get from human habitation.

      Close to humans cats are relatively easy to catch, but your net gain may be little to negative unless you've got rodents under control as well. Get out a bit where they have no interaction with humans and it's another story, long range shooting is about the most time effective but you only get one chance, it's very demanding shooting.

    • Also as a cat lover – I suspect your suggestion of keeping all cats inside at night – will be a bridge too far. And, really has little, if anything, to do with the feral cat problem described in the article.

      Better to concentrate on eliminating feral cats (at the same time you're eliminating other introduced predators). The 'how' of that question has yet to be decided.

      I absolutely agree (and so do all of the inundated cat rehome charities) about mandatory de-sexing of kittens (unless a registered breeder is going to keep them for breeding). And think that all cats should have microchips – initially registered to the breeder, then to the new owner (i.e. no 'blank unlinked microchips).

      I also think that 'owners' should be licensed as well – so people with a repeated pattern of 'poor' behaviour around animals (dumping cats, for example) aren't allowed to own again for a period (say 10 years).

      However, we've had 'mandatory' registrations for dogs for quite some years – and there are still many, many unregistered (and some frankly dangerous) dogs (cf the recent case up North). So registration isn't exactly an automatically successful strategy. And needs effective enforcement (completely lacking in many areas of Auckland, for example), in order to be even marginally successful.

  2. Molly 2

    Rumour alluded to on Open Mike 01/09/2022, seems to have been confirmed:

    "The quiet shift to more inclusive pregnancy language and the long road toward systemic change" – NZ Herald.

    There is reassurance from the article (in bold so that it cannot be missed:

    Women are not being erased.), so that's good. To ensure that the massaging of messaging is complete, the article also includes terms such as 'gender essentialism' and helpful education about the inherent wrongnness of Terfs, even while misrepresenting concerns.

    There is some reference to research, but no link.

    So, here's one: https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fgwh.2022.818856/full

    Of course, no article which disregards the impact on women's ability to use clear language to describe themselves or be described, can be complete without a 'feel-good story', so we have the now familiar faces of a couple where the biological female with a transman gender identity want to get pregnant, and so wish to have language that ignores the reality based biological sex component that allows that, and have their declared gender identity acknowledged in medical literature.

    • Visubversa 2.1

      The feel good story is always about a woman with a claimed male identity who is obviously not suffering from any dysphoria in relation to her sexed body in that she wishes to get pregnant and have a child.

      The reality is that this is being done at the behest of men who claim a female identity and wish to possess everything relating to womanhood. They can certainly perform "femininity", but they are totally unable (outside of the usual fetishised behaviour) to perform women's reproductive functions – menstruation, pregnancy, lactation etc. Therefore, these things must be uncoupled from any definition of woman or female.

      The erasure of women when it comes to reproduction is entirely at the behest of autogynephiliac men and the followers of the gender ideology of which they are the "high priests".

      • Molly 2.1.1

        The linked study above provides a good starting point for considering the impacts the article does not even mention.

        From the Introduction:

        On 24 September 2021, The Lancet medical journal highlighted an article on its cover with a single sentence in large text; “Historically, the anatomy and physiology of bodies with vaginas have been neglected.” This statement, in which the word “women” was replaced with the phrase “bodies with vaginas,” is part of a trend to remove sexed terms such as “women” and “mothers” from discussions of female reproduction. The good and important intention behind these changes is sensitivity to, and acknowledgment of, the needs of people who are biologically female and yet do not consider themselves to be women because of their gender identity (1). However, these changes are often not deliberated regarding their impact on accuracy or potential for other unintended consequences. In this paper we present some background to this issue, describe various observed impacts, consider a number of potentially deleterious consequences, and suggest a way forward.

        • Joanne Reid 2.1.1.1

          This enrages me.
          For decades women have been fighting not to be seen as just a body with a vagina. It’s absolutely insulting. How dare they!

          • Molly 2.1.1.1.1

            In gender ideology, it is necessary to acknowledge women as a biological sex and material reality in order to identify yourself as a transgender person with a variant "gender identity" that is not women or female.

            However, from that point on it is demanded that any reference to women, female or girl ONLY pertains to the amorphous idea of "gender identity".

            The sheer arrogance and illogical nature of this appropriation of language, particularly women, female and girls removes from women (whether identifying as transgender or not) the existing word to clearly name themselves in medical literature and messaging, research, political and legislative discussions and changes, society, education, etc.

            Transgender people regardless of identity, know their biological sex.

            They have to, in order to dissociate from it, in terms of identity.

            Recognising this does not in any way exclude them from their declared identity, or cast doubt on that personal and individual gender expression.

            The impacts on women in terms of confusing messaging is as follows:

            1. The demand for women to only refer to biological sex when it suits – and it only suits when describing the initial transgender incongruence – is the emotive demand of fundamentally self-absorbed people – and their allies.

            "Going into that [traditional] space to see their midwife particularly if their body is changing and it's making them feel big feelings about their gender or identity anyway then going into a space that is very cis and het will be triggering for them.

            "I don't think you have to be a queer midwife to provide queer inclusive pregnancy care, but you have to have done a lot of work and be a really good ally."

            The word salad above is from the article, and is a quote from a medical professional. There are a lot of superfluous and propoganda terms in there that are redirecting the conversation away from objective critiques.

            2. Women have only been recognised as being ill-served by the medical profession in the last few years, with treatment protocols being offered that have only been developed on male bodies, often resulting in worse outcomes for females. This inability to name women with clarity within the medical profession will not assist rectifying this problem.

            3. Women adversely affected by non-use of the clear language of women, girls, females:

            a) ALL – including those who identify as some other gender identity. Creating a amorphous and non-standard group of inclusive terms is harmful to ALL women in both the short and long term;

            b) Women receiving medical messaging and advice in a language which is not the one in which they are fluent. Many will recognise the word women in a different language, but will not be so familiar with the completely disturbing body function terms such as: menstruator, ovulator, incubator, gestator;

            c) Women who have learning impairments or communication difficulties will also be ill served by the replacement of the clear words of woman, women, female and girls;

            d) Transgender identified women who are dealing with reproductive issues, or having to get treatment for women's medical issues, are not being told they have to abandon their gender identities, they are (like every other patient – man or woman) dealing with the material realities of their sexed bodies. Everyone has "big feelings" about health and wellbeing. Cancer patients don't deal with their diagnosis, by renaming it as something benign. They have already accepted that biological sex is different from gender identity, – where does this insistence that in cases where the discussion is only about biological sex come from?

            There's a whole other conversation about many women throughout the generations being unable to name or identify the bodily processes and organs that a lot of "inclusive" language uses: vagina, vulva, ovaries, womb, uterus etc. They know how to deal with the effects or consequences of being a woman, or female, but not the detail of the medical terms that isolate those body parts and processes.

            Apart from these issues. The fundamental takeaway is that anyone, of any sex, or gender identity that said that calling men women did not have any impact on women, females and girls – lied.

            And they are continuing to lie.

            • Molly 2.1.1.1.1.1

              The demand to give in to these lies are supported and facilitated by institutions, governments, media and discussion platforms.

              Eg.

    • weka 2.2

      meanwhile,

      • Anker 2.2.1

        Yes the poster says it all "terfs can suck my big trans cock"

        Wake up people. The trans movement is not progressive in any way, shape form

        Why oh why the left have gone dow n this rabbit hole, I will never know.. This movement isn’t about transgender people at all. They are a very, very tiny minority. About one in thirty thousand before queer ideology came along. And generally trans people were accepted in NZ. Georgina Beyer was both Mayor and an MP. Carmen was able to run a nightclub and was seen as a local icon (even though she pimped women), Bob Moodie the commissioner of police rocked it in a kaftan and nobody stopped him.

        • swordfish 2.2.1.1

          .

          The "Left" has slowly but surely been captured by Woke dogmatists among the professional middle class … a little cult of arrogant, authoritarian & utterly deluded followers in culturally & socially powerful positions. Their understanding of reality is both crudely reductive and deeply distorted.

          In many respects, the antithesis of traditional Social Democracy.

          Their Critical Theory perversion of the traditional Left pursuit of social justice – and their Rogernome-like imposition of radical change by stealth – is absolutely guaranteed to produce major new forms of social in-justice.

          And I see my parents (and others around NZ in a similar nightmare situation) as among their earliest victims. Many many more to come.

          • Anker 2.2.1.1.1

            Agree with your analysis Swordfish. We have to keep the anti social tennants in their state house as we have to provide them with wrap around services and too bloody bad about the neighbours, because we are right.

            The new NZ Health, already showing itself for what it is (scroll below to see new software with more pro nouns than you can shake a stick at). What is that going to be like for the mentally ill, the elderly, people will early stage dementia, people with cancer and so on and so forth to be confronted with this nonsense).

            But never mind good to know the staff will be entertained by adult entertainers in drag. Go to their insta gram account to see how they present, Maria Richman and King Chole Tamekehu.

          • RedLogix 2.2.1.1.2

            In many respects, the antithesis of traditional Social Democracy.

            And like Douglas the betrayal will echo across NZ politics for generations. Only deeper. All things considered I admire your courage in your continued speaking out swordfish – I had to let it go. yes

            • swordfish 2.2.1.1.2.1

              .

              Cheers, Red … I've noted your recent absence here … I'm guessing partly a consequence of your recently-diagnosed serious health issue and partly that you've simply had enough. You're one of the sane ones here, calmly grounded in reality, always prepared to do the right thing … unsurprising given your wealth of real-life experience & major problem-solving skills in heavy industry over several decades. Starkly contrasting with clueless keyboard warriors and their propensity towards moral panics, purity spirals & full-on scapegoating.

              Me … let's face it: I'm a deadman walking … back on chemo again … little to lose, although I'd like to think I'd do the right thing regardless … constantly fuelled by anger at what my Parents are being forced to go through … along with the rank hypocrisy of our new dullard Woke Overlords … but then “hypocrisy” is such a weak word … doesn't even remotely capture the sheer cowardice, covert sadism & ruthless self-interest being pursued under all that desperate, fevered moral posturing.

              • Muttonbird

                Epic rant, but am struggling to work out what defines you. Is it your prognosis, is it what has happened to your parents, or is it because you are naturally right wing and always have been? Because, from the outside, it appears the thing that drives you most is the angry brown person living next door to mum and dad. You used to provide very useful stats and polling analysis but this unnamed vector is now centre to what you talk about here in a way which is not healthy at all. Please find out a way to not use this person to attack all things progressive on this platform and get back to your core skills.

                Thanks in advance.

                • Anker

                  I am really sorry to hear about your situation Swordfish.

                  I hope you have a lot of good people around you giving you love and support.

                  Take care

                • Anker

                  I am not meaning to answer on Swordfishs behalf but Muttonbird, really? Really? Swordfish is dealing with what is a very serious situation in terms of his health and you ask him to find a way not to attack all things progressive on this platform (and invite him to get back to his core skills).

                  Wtf……….

                  You not the first on this site to show a complete lack of empathy towards Swordfish.

                  And let me say this. I have been commenting on this blog since 2013. All comments were "left wing" supportive of Labour, yada, yada.

                  And then Labour revealed themselves to be captured by what I considered was a crazy unscientific ideology. And I think SF may have had the same experience. When the managerial classes (in his case the Housing Ministry) thought they knew best and showed a complete lack of empathy for his elderly parents who it sounds like had been party stalwarts all their lives.

                  And I have to say, I have become profoundly disillusioned with the left and Labour. I suspect it has been the same for Swordfish. And I always appreciate it when he comments. Because he speaks for a lot of us when he talks about the ideological disaster Labour is. Things have got much, much worse under their watch.

                  I welcome Swordfish commnets. They are very real and I agree with them.

                • Drowsy M. Kram

                  Imho, anti-wokeism is an inevitable consequence of the sustained gross inequality that is fraying Kiwi society. 'We' would have the resources to improve societal resilience were it not for the 'hesitancy' of the 'top' 10% to share more of their wealth with the 'bottom' 50% – "So it goes."

                  With the left asleep at the wheel, the right has surged ahead with its cynical anti-woke narrative [18 May 2022]
                  We found that the divisive story about the wokemob had mainly been constructed by a small handful of people, consisting of certain politicians, parts of the media and very privileged public figures. It is mainly coming from the hard right of the political spectrum and key figures in the government and media, but elements of the centre and the left have started experimenting with it as well. Many adherents of the anti-woke story genuinely believe it, but it also provides them with a useful distraction technique. In the face of pressing issues such as the cost of living scandal or government corruption, the anti-woke story is usually dispensed to convince people that the biggest threat facing the UK is the nebulous wokemob and not, say, energy companies making vast profits at people’s expense, or the government’s disastrous handling of the pandemic. Four days before the charity Action for Children announced that children were getting chilblains because their parents couldn’t afford to heat their homes, the Telegraph published an article arguing thatwoke is not just an insult – it’s a threat to our freedom”.

                  Anti-wokeism, Tamaki, VFF, Arps et al.made for each other. They too "have a dream."

                  https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why-attacking-cancel-culture-and-woke-people-is-becoming-the-gops-new-political-strategy/

                  • Sabine

                    Yes because men not having access to female changing rooms, female wards in hospitals, female prison cells, female showers, female toilets and female 'designation' as in women – meaning 'female, adult human' is '

                    'gross sustained inequality'

                    cause dignity and safety is something that men need and seemingly don’t have and that women need to provide men with no question asked, and if they ask question then they should suck on some huge transcock.

                    And that is why the left is losing one non male / non trans voter after the other.

                  • Molly

                    Some of us continue to look both ways before crossing the street to join the motley crew yelling 'facism!' 'anti-woke' or 'hard-right':

                  • Stuart Munro

                    Although the right have certainly capitalized on antiwoke sentiment, it should not be imagined that it is a unitary phenomenon, or particularly in tune with their natural supporters.

                    There are ample and increasing social ills coalescing around the loss of social engagement – Putnam's bowling alone. The 'melting pot' created by unrestricted migration benefits no-one but the exploiter employers.

                    In the context of the decline in home ownership, outrageous power price increases, increased cost of living and sustained long term earnings decline versus inflation, woke nonsense is cruel and provocative mockery.

                    To date we have only false and amateur demagogues so transparently looking for a quick buck they can only attract the lunatic fringe – but let a real left demagogue arise and the comfortable assumptions of Blairite sinecure holders will be shaken.

                  • Anker

                    I think the article about GOP is just trying to smear and associate some of us who object to cancel culture by associating us with GOP and the right wing.

                    I am against cancel culture because it is anti free speech.

                    If they left were being cancelled the way some of us are who don't suppport the new woke orthodoxy, all hell would break loose.

                    • Molly

                      The lack of content and critique, and the presence of censure and self-congratulation is strong in the posts you refer to:

                      " as long as those who proclaim anti-woke views also acknowledge systemic inequality, and see clearly who benefits, it's all good".

                      I agree with your assessment of intention and contribution value.

                    • Drowsy M. Kram

                      I think the article about GOP is just trying to smear and associate some of us who object to cancel culture by associating us with GOP and the right wing.

                      You could be right – maybe that's what the author had in mind.

                      If they left were being cancelled the way some of us are who don't suppport the new woke orthodoxy, all hell would break loose.

                      Or indeed if 'they right' were being cancelled – wouldn’t it be wonderful if those in charge (of whatever political flavour) could work not just to ameliorate the more severe consequences of gross inequality, but actually tackle inequality itself. But it’s just a dream.

                • Sabine

                  Please go and find your moral compass and your 'kindness' indicator, you seem to have lost both.

                  Or at least learn to shorten your Order to:

                  Shut up, Obey, do as told.

              • Anker

                I am really sorry to hear about your situation Swordfish.

                I hope you have a lot of good people around you giving you love and support.

                Take care

              • Molly

                Swordfish. Our household was under attack from an abusive neighbour for eight months, during the first lockdown. Not only abusive to us, but also his teenage partner. Police were regular visitors, but of no practical help. In fact, their suggestions, when followed at the cost of additional stress were ignored when the results were offered to them. During this time, life goes on, and you have to deal with the otherstresses of life without having the respite of the safe haven of home. Later discovered that the constant breaking of Lockdown Rules was sufficient to warrant immediate eviction. I have empathy for your parents and any others living in such a hellish situation. The failure to address this situation, is one of many failures from successive governments. Labour does not represent to me, a government with understanding past their own political bubble and social circles.

                Also, wanted to wish you well for your treatment and health.

                • swordfish

                  .

                  without having the respite of the safe haven of home

                  Exactly … forced into constant severe stress, sleep deprivation & major personal safety concerns in their own home & neighbourhood (where they may have lived in peace for decades) … regardless of whether the victims are very elderly like my parents or not, it rapidly destroys people's lives & health … while the Woke ostentatiously proclaim their solidarity with the perpetrators (or at minimum act as apologists), apparently under the delusion that this signals their "unusually-refined moral sensibilities".

                  “See how “progressive” I am … see how I champion those at the very bottom of the Underclass … am I not special everyone ???”

                  Like the violent anti-social perpetrators, the ID Pols bourgeoisie are simply users & abusers of other people for their own self-interest. All that public faux-moral posturing acts as a perpetual alibi & shield, allowing them to maintain power & control.

                  Also, wanted to wish you well for your treatment and health.

                  Cheers, genuinely appreciate it.

                  • Molly

                    All good, swordfish.

                    Been going through similar health treatments over the last couple of years, so I have some understanding of that journey.

                    Apparently, it hasn't stopped my opinions as much as some would like.

                    PS. Don't hesitate in get in touch via the backend if you want to discuss options for pain relief. Close friend dx with leukaemia so between us we have a few tried and true remedies.

              • Sabine

                <<<<swordfish>>>>

            • Molly 2.2.1.1.2.2

              Redlogix, I missed your comment regarding your situation.

              Wishing you all the best.

      • Molly 2.2.2

        Even though, this is a bit off-topic in terms of the necessity of clear language for women's health, it strikes me that for once this statement is pretty-much accurate for a change.

        As a demonstration of the declaration this week by another commenter, of the allyship provided to women by gender ideology activists it is also fairly typical.

        It also shows the familiar demand for women to provide sexual services, when they have the temerity to open their mouths for other uses – like expressing opinions.

        So, in terms of analysis:

        1. Accurate statement for once. Good example of women's rights allyship. Familiar demand for sexual act.

        2. Response:

        TERF's 'can' but probably don't want to. Especially those that are lesbians. And those with some level of sexual partner standards, and healthy feelings of self worth, and those men labelled with TERF who are heterosexual, or homosexual – with again, some level of standards when it comes to sexual partners.

        It's a pity one of the few factual unequivocal statements they have come up with is one with not a lot of appeal to the stated target audience.

        (Well, of course there might be other reasons for why this appeal for sexual intimacy is expressed in such a way. I'm sure others will be able to help out on possible intentions.)

        • Visubversa 2.2.2.1

          Their first response is usually a threat of sexual violence. Those Y chromosomes win out every time. https://terfisaslur.com/

          • Molly 2.2.2.1.1

            That's true.

            Spent some hilarious time with my daughter this morning, trying to come up with equivalent responses expressed by women to men who disagree with them.

            We did compose a few, but can't come up with any that seem to be in common use.

            Perhaps, some of the men on here who have been responded to in such a way can post the female sexual demand riposte equivalent?

        • weka 2.2.2.2

          I see it as a rape statement. It's not an invitation for sex.

          Also, imagine getting female specific health care like a cervical smear from a man who identifies as a woman who is AGP. For that reason I don't see it as too off topic. Women are being made invisible, along with our needs and rights. Violence aimed at GCFs online is part of the push to get women to shut the fuck up.

          • Molly 2.2.2.2.1

            "I see it as a rape statement. It's not an invitation for sex."

            TBH, I do as well. Thanks for pointing it out.

            I have moderated my personal perspective, so that those unfamiliar with the persistence and celebrated repetitive occurrence of this phrase, can attempt to justify it by basic language analysis.

            When people are unable to understand that woman is an adult human female, I think there will be an unnecessary and completely pointless diversion into what the term 'rape culture' means.

            I am offering them an opportunity to defend this use at the most basic level of communication. Let’s see if anyone steps up.

            “Also, imagine getting female specific health care like a cervical smear from a man who identifies as a woman who is AGP. For that reason I don’t see it as too off topic. Women are being made invisible, along with our needs and rights. Violence aimed at GCFs online is part of the push to get women to shut the fuck up.”

            I do agree with this. These are the legitimate concerns regarding the negative impacts of gender ideology demands on women’s healthcare, that are obvious to many women who have taken time to consider this issue.

            From previous conversations on here, I am inclined to assume that many have not taken that time, so I leave space for that to occur.

            Your comments are a reliable starting point, as always.

            • weka 2.2.2.2.1.1

              👍

            • Sabine 2.2.2.2.1.2

              it is the age old rape threat given to women that don't behave, and it includes the excuse of : You made me do it. If you would have shut up, be obedient adn do as a tell you to do I would not have to force you to suck my huge transcock.

              And it came courtesy of Die Linke, which is a left political party in the German Government.

              It is literally the left telling women and some men to be good girls/boys lest they get sexually abused, which of course is the fault of the victim not doing as government says they should do. It is a government sanctioned rape threat.

          • weka 2.2.2.2.2

            • weka 2.2.2.2.2.1

              for those reading wondering what the hell is going on, or those who still think that gender identity politics isn't rife with misogyny, here's a post about suck my trans dick people protesting a feminist conference.

              .https://thestandard.org.nz/new-misogyny-same-as-the-old-misogyny/

            • Sabine 2.2.2.2.2.2

              The speaker is a person in parliament as a Queer Advocate and the tent was provided for by DIE Linke a left party in government. 🙂

              Yes, Frauenhass is jetzt wieder modern and bei allen beliebt.

              Now fall in line and obey or else suck this huge transcock ………………..

              How long until we get that same rethoric in public here? And lets also always keep in mind, that there is currently not ONE political party that would dare to defend the rights of the domestic mental health support animals that are threatened with the forced sucking of said huge cocks of the transwoman.

              The question that the human support providing animals formerly known as women/girls (as in born non penis havers) needs to ask itself why and whom they can vote for in order to protect even a shred of their rights?

    • Anker 2.3

      Thanks Molloy. The trans man who wants to get pregnant is in fact a biological woman (they are lucky not to have had gender affirming health care that may have robbed them of their fertility). So this very small minority of people are so special we have to change our language and no longer be called women, so therefore no longer be able to identity as a sex class.

      I also have it on good authority that Health NZ are having a drag kareoke event at their premises for staff. Are any other advocacy groups going to be invited to provide entertainment for Health NZ staff? Why drag Queens? Aren't they usually adult entertainment? Anyone remember the disasterous vodafone xmas party with Thai strippers a decade or two ago?

      While we still have an outstanding pay agreement with nurses, mid wives taking the govt to court, acute staff shortages across health, a dementia unit closing the Hutt Valley due to lack of staff, Health NZ manages to find the time to put on entertainment for themselves (and adult entertainment to boot)/

      Welcome to the age of the management class, those who know best.

      • Visubversa 2.3.1

        Auckland Council has "Drag Queen Story Time " in local libraries as a children's event. Drag relies on sexualised parodies of women by men ("womanface" anybody?) and is definitely not children's entertainment. It is all about forcing gender ideology into every facet of society.

        • Belladonna 2.3.1.1

          I don't think that it's Auckland Libraries. Though it seems to have been at multiple other libraries around the country.

          I know that there was a road-show tour in 2020 – and gather that it's continued (absent lockdowns).

          https://www.eventfinda.co.nz/tour/2020/erika-coco-flashs-rainbow-storytime-nz-tour

          But it doesn't seem to have come to Auckland, at all.

          There was something at the Art Gallery this year, but not, as far as I can see, at the Libraries.

          https://www.aucklandartgallery.com/whats-on/event/rainbow-storytime?q=%2Fwhats-on%2Fevent%2Frainbow-storytime

          Those libraries, which did host the events, have faced quite a bit of backlash from their communities. Not an issue having women or men (if one is allowed to use those gendered nouns) dressed up as fairies, elves or unicorns for story time (which librarians have been doing for decades) – bring it on – the toddlers will be dancing in the aisles. But no responsible parent wants their preschoolers exposed to hyper-sexualized adult entertainment.

          https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/online-backlash-to-rainbow-storytime-drag-performers-shocks-community-we-still-have-a-long-way-to-go/ZL6VLHKGDW4NCQLYLDKGOJZQXU/

          • Molly 2.3.1.1.1

            The Art Gallery does seem to be the location for the Rainbow Story Time event. Partly funded by 'targeted rates'.

            "Proudly supported by Auckland Council and the city centre targeted rate."

            It would have been entirely reasonable for Auckland Council to record and post the sessions online, so both advocates and those with concerns could have an informed discussion.

            As for myself, Drag Queens are character (or caricature) performers based on sexist stereotypes of women, primarily for the entertainment of adults. Due to this, the stereotypes are often over-sexualised parodies of women. Most Drag Queen performances are ad-libbed when it comes to vocals, or embrace the inferior vocal prowess of performers to emphasise the parody. Choreography is not about skill or dancer control, it is – once again – usually limited to strutting, prancing and sexual moves.

            I believe there is a real connection between people who are unable to fully accept any deviation from heterosexual norms in terms of expression, and those who are now unable to distinguish the difference between a performance based character, and sexuality and gender expression.

            • Molly 2.3.1.1.1.1

              Another possible contender using the current inclusion criteria might be this fantastic woman:

            • Belladonna 2.3.1.1.1.2

              It would have been entirely reasonable for Auckland Council to record and post the sessions online, so both advocates and those with concerns could have an informed discussion.

              They may well not have had the rights to do so, from the music perspective. Having had a bit to do with licensing performances through APRA – there is a big difference, both in cost and ability to license, music which is intended for live performance only, and where that performance is recorded.

              Music composers and rights holders can (and do) refuse permission for their work to be recorded (they are sometimes willing to make exemptions for kids performances – where the recording is only available to the individual families) – but very frequently decline commercial shows (like this one) – or charge very substantially higher fees.

              Edit. Realized that I’m assuming that music was a component of this – which it was in the original shows. This one may have only been story-book narration. Who knows?

              • Molly

                "This one may have only been story-book narration. Who knows?"

                Unfortunately, for the accuracy of this particular series of events very few.

                Also unlikely that those promoting, booking or attending this event in the past would provide an objective critical view either.

                My personal critique of Drag Queens used in such a way, is predicated on the points I made above, not this particular occurrence involving Coco Flash and Erika.

          • Visubversa 2.3.1.1.2

            West Auckland libraries a couple of weeks ago. We walked past the advertisement at the Pt Chevalier library – complete with the invaded Rainbow flag of Gender Ideology. Definitely Auckland Council libraries.

            • Belladonna 2.3.1.1.2.1

              Well, they're certainly not promoting it online.
              Just checked the Pt Chev facebook page. And only found their standard 'Wriggle and rhyme' preschool event. There is a LGBTQ+ craft group/event listed – but that's it.
              https://www.facebook.com/pointchevalierlibrary

            • Molly 2.3.1.1.2.2

              Well, I have no reason to doubt your statement regarding the promotion of gender ideology at Pt Chevalier library.

              A quick look at their Facebook page for the branch shows that they have spectrumed/rainbow-ised/declarised the Auckland Council logo to show their stance.

              This is just performative guff though, and a redirect to a totally different discussion.

              I'd really like those supporting Drag Queens events for children to clearly state what they consider the benefits to be. For children.

              • weka

                Smashing the binary stuff would be my guess. Which I don't have a problem with so long as people can also then talk about times when the binary matters.

                And I'd like to see the DQ community and allies stand up and address the issues of hypersexualisation and parodies of women. If DQST isn't sexualised and isn't doing parody performance, is there a problem?

                • Molly

                  "If DQST isn't sexualised and isn't doing parody performance, is there a problem?"

                  I consider this to the equivalent of asking if you remove the shell, the yolk and the albumen – can you still call it an egg?

                  Ignoring that personal view, surely the question focus should be:

                  "Even if DQST isn't sexualised and isn't doing parody performance, what is the benefit for children?"

                  • weka

                    Parents and their tamariki enjoyed the Drag Queens Rainbow storytime session hosted at HB Williams Memorial Library. Rainbow Story time is an event for tamariki and their whānau. Its aim is to promote visibility, acceptance, self-confidence and inclusivity among communities.

                    I consider this to the equivalent of asking if you remove the shell, the yolk and the albumen – can you still call it an egg?

                    not hard to see how DQST can be done sexualised or not sexualised (we've seen both right?). Less clear is the parody.

                    • Molly

                      It's the inclusivity excuse that I find unconvincing.

                      Drag Queen performance – sans sexual innuendo and caricature – is a character stereotype, alongside comparable (now avoided stereotypes such as Mickey Rooney's character portrayal in Breakfast at Tiffany's).

                      As such, it has nothing at all to do with sexual orientation, or gender identity. It also has nothing to do with personal diversity in self-expression in day-to-day life, because it is performance based.

                      In terms of showing high levels of skill in performance arts, such as singing and dancing it is also fairly unconvincing. The Drag Queen performers don't usually display high levels of skill in this respect, the entertainment value is not based on this criteria.

                      If the performers – as gay or transgender performers without the added component of drag queen character – were employed to promote diversity – then that makes more sense in terms of diversity.

                      But we need to remember the first intention of libraries and children.

                      To inculcate within children an enduring interest in reading, literature and the written word.

                      If this intention is achieved children will be introduced to diversity, different perspectives and challenges to their own biases by what they read.

                • Sabine

                  a man presenting as an absolute caricature of 'woman' sexualised to he hilt is smashing the binary.

                  Yeah, right Tui.

        • Leighton 2.3.1.2

          The drag queen storytime thing is a storm in a teacup. My wife took my five year old daughter to one of these events at our library. The content was entirely age appropriate around being yourself – no gender indoctrination going on. It does children no harm to meet different types of people in a respectful and positive environment.

          The efforts to delete women from the English vocabulary and dehumanisation into "bodies with vaginas" to appease a tiny minority is a much bigger problem than a performer reading children's books. Let's fight the battles that matter.

          • Molly 2.3.1.2.1

            Oh, Leighton.

            What is the benefit to children in regards to the written word?

            Drag is not:

            1. A sexual orientation;
            2. A gender identity;
            3. An expression of living your life authentically (it is an assumed persona);
            4. Not highly skilled in terms of song, dance or performance (the entertainment value is related to the parody of women, both in presentation and voice, and pratfall physical humour).

            The warm glowing feeling experienced by adults who organise, book and attend such events is immaterial.

            The question is primarily: What is the benefit to children in regards to the written word?

            • Sabine 2.3.1.2.1.1

              It will show girls that women are garish, overly sexualised men.

              It will show boys that "women" are garish overly sexualised men.

              It will show both, that men can be what they want, women and girls needn't apply.

              Maybe we can have a Cop reads a book day, Firefighter reads a book day, Nurse reads a book day, homeless person reads a book day – and be these readers men and women to show to the kids that anyone can be a cop, teacher/nurse or even homeless?

              Oh that would not be 'smashing the binary' enough?
              Mind another thought, it is to groom these kids into accepting Drag, Prostituion, etc as future jobs for them.

              • Molly

                Well, that doesn't seem to align with the stated aim (video above) 'to promote visibility, acceptability, self-confidence and inclusivity'.

                But perhaps it does, in some way. Given that there is no details about the why and how.

                After watching the video, I have a suspicion that one of the drag artists is one of the emerging cohort of women who are performing drag, in order to express their inner colourfulness.

                I don't think I want to even analyse that new development here. Many are having difficulty with the basics.

                • Sabine

                  If you want to 'queer' i.e. put under the trans umbrella everyone than overly sexualised performances by adult entertainer for children makes perfectly good sense. The younger you start the more accepting they will be simply by emulating what adults do. I.e. monkey see monkey do. If the parents have no objections to such children targeted adult entertainment then of course that re-inforces to the child that this is Ok. After all, we are all gender and gender identification/expression. Thus grown adult man larping womanhood to children is considered 'educational'. Draq Queening is considered a normal job, as is stripping, burlesque entertainment, sex work is work etc etc etc.

                  In the same sense as we are in the process of finishing the process of removing the word woman – adult human female i.e. carrier of large gametes for the last billion of years or so – from any reproductive function. At that stage, incubator/surrogate/birthing body providing, lactating, egg harvesting all become chargeable services and jobs for said carriers of the large gametes. Together with sex work is work, being finally able to incubate and provide human livestock , human livestock suitable food, and unfertilized eggs for human lifestock to other humans in exchange for a handfull of dollars and / or a bowl of rice the carriers of the large gamete will finally have beat patriarchy and was truly liberated from the shackles of made up societal gender stereotypes.

                  The physical body will be separated from the mind, the two shall never meet in the middle and both can be modified at will by surgery and drugs. Woot Woot.

                  See here posted by Glinner:

                  https://grahamlinehan.substack.com/p/all-eyes-on-the-royal-college-of

                  admission to services based on 'gender expression'.

                  • Molly

                    Watching the video, it is apparent it is the adults that are responsive to the performance – such as it is.

                    I query the benefit of giving such young children mixed messages regarding their own developing sense of self and others. Some of the younger attendees look to be the age of those who think things twink out of existence if they are not visible.

                    Children also go through a development stage of assigning sex by stereotypical signs such as clothes, hair length etc, and then develop a greater understanding that these things are not representative of the material reality of sex.

                    This understanding of child development seems to be missing here. How do you explain that the man pretending to be a woman, but wearing clothes associated with womenhood, and exaggerated makeup and performance is actually a man, but needs to be referred to as she, and a woman?

                    • Sabine

                      You don't explain that, you don't expect that to be explained, in fact you might even find that providing 'explaining' to confused kids becomes 'conversion therapy'.

                      Boys are girls, girls are boys and everyone can be anything any time in-between, surgery, drugs, pronouns and enforced affirmation will do so.

                      The confusion is wanted. In order to implement the new you need to destroy the old. So whatever the little children feel of themselves needs to be cancelled and confused – queered. And then you bring forth your new ideas of 'self id' and explain the genderbread person to the kids and where they may fit on the scale of 1 – 10 of either male or female and tell them that that confusion that was put in their little heads is natural and that there are a 8 billion genders and they have to just choose what they want to be.

                      And you re-enforce that 'choice' of what one is per self id in school, university and borgplaces of employment. And anyone who dares be different to that promoted ideology gets cancelled and ostracized by polite society.

                      You might like this artist. 🙂

                      https://twitter.com/tatsuyaishida9?lang=en

                    • Molly

                      Appropriate safeguarding and understanding of childhood development, seems to be completely missing in practice here.

                      The very real vulnerability of children to influence and exploitation is completely waved away by abstract ill defined 'inclusivity' and 'diversity' excuses, as if they were magic words.

                      ( I do like that artist… already following.

                      Apparently, they lost quite a few followers for a while, but I think they have regained numbers for some reason or another. wink)

                    • Sabine

                      Appropriate safeguarding and understanding of childhood development, seems to be completely missing in practice here.

                      The definition of 'appropriate' has changed. This is now considered by government, academia, education, etc 'appropriate'. Appropriate enough to spend rate payers and tax payers funds on.

                      Voltaire — 'If you wish to converse with me, define your terms.'

                • Sabine

                  Equity, so yeah, you will have Drag Kings. And that too is generally speaking a grotesque caricature of what is a man.

    • Psycho Milt 2.4

      Funny how this "inclusive language" never involves phrases like "people with prostates", "semen ejaculators" etc. It's always the female humans being erased by this gibberish, with a cheery handwave of "Women are not being erased." They think we're idiots – or they are. Neither is good.

      • weka 2.4.1

        I really should do a post on this.

      • Molly 2.4.2

        I am inclined to think that it is primarily men and women who have a very restricted idea about male expression, and who are active proponents of this ideology, that explains this phenomenon.

        I mentioned it here, a couple of days ago:

        "The other suspicion I have about men who so emphatic about other men being accepted as women, is this:

        For all their talk about acceptance, inclusion and kindness, and let's admit it – complete ignorance about being female, a girl or a woman – their insistence that transvestites, autogynophiles, men who just declare themselves as women MUST BE accepted in all ways as women, is because they are both unable and unwilling to accommodate such men alongside themselves as 'men'.

        That is why, they choose to abuse women who say they accept that diversity of trans people, but not the lie of biological sex change. They are unable to accept transwomen as men, because their idea of men is limited, so any variation must belong in the non-men category. "

        The follow-on corollary to this, is that such fundamental adherence to a very limited and masculine idea of men, makes any admittance of transmen into that category a moot point. They also don't meet that limited criteria for men. They remain non-men.

        In other words, they know transmen are women, so they don't have to make changes or accommodate them as men in language, healthcare or any other way. Even given that the negative impacts for men in this respect are nowhere near as significant as what is occurring for women, this view protects men from the slightest discomfort or boundary testing.

        • weka 2.4.2.1

          this but it's complex, because TM need healthcare for women too. Also, there are two dynamics at play in how women's language is affected: the desire to accommodate TM/NBF, and the pressure to accommodate TW/AGPs. That double dynamic doesn't happen with men's language.

          I see the shift in language for women as being largely sexist and misogynistically driven. Because if it weren't, the various health systems would be applying the philosophical change evenly, it would just be a matter of course: how can we make language more inclusive for trans/NB people? We can neutralise all language. Which they're not doing.

          I'd guess there is also a dynamic around women being more willing to give things up and care take, whereas men aren't going to do that unless they're made to. The degree to which midwifery has removed women's language is alarming.

          • Molly 2.4.2.1.1

            All women need clear language, protocols, guidance and messaging for healthcare. Regardless of gender identity.

            Alongside women with specific health needs, eg. endometriosis, gynaecological issues etc, women using medical or surgical transition interventions require specific attention to impacts resulting from cosmetic surgery and endocrine disruptions. This remains true for anyone who has had interventions whether they are currently trans-identified or detransitioners. There is a lack of information in this regard for all transgender people that needs to be filled, by quality information and healthcare.

            The reality is, that women do have a body that evolutionary processes have designed for reproduction, and so there are many times in life when that results in greater levels and occurences of hormonal variance and impact on health from those variances, that occur for men.

            There is also, as you say, a societal expectation connected to the way this is being played out.

          • Psycho Milt 2.4.2.1.2

            Misogyny and sexism at the bottom of it, alright. It's true that if they tried to claim men should be referred to as sperm deliverers or prostate havers, the backlash would be immediate and uncompromising. But they don't seem to have even thought of trying to make those claims – it's only directed at women.

    • Molly 2.5

      The insanity is deliberate and ongoing apparently:

  3. I also have it on good authority that Health NZ are having a drag kareoke event at their premises for staff.

    Good grief this fails (abysmally) the common test of 'what would this look like on the front page of the newspaper?'

    Perhaps it just means a dress up /fancy dress party? Again fails the sniff test, remember Prince Harry and his appearance in a German officer's uniform. Actually it is pathetic really.

    No probs with a party, hopefully run by the social club with minimal organisation $$$$, but anything other than that shows a level of ignorance about history and perception that we should not be expecting from such an organisation.

    Perhaps a banner along the lines of that above could be used by people picketing the event…..though it would probably zoom straight over their heads.

    This is such a minefield now that any fun, if there ever was any, has gone now.

    You could argue the other way too that an event like this makes fun of others. In the olden days it used to be hulking rugby types that had most fun cross dressing. Every fancy dress party, ‘back in the day’ had these short skirted, shoe wobbling dopes with OTT makeup. They may still do this in a rugby clubrooms far far away…….

  4. Peter 4

    I remember years ago being in lectures where the topic was the impact of technology on mankind.

    Apparently people were going to need to learn how to live with lots of leisure, with time on their hands. It has been interesting to observe how things have developed.

    Where have we got to? We order groceries online so someone will do our shopping for us. We order food to be delivered to us. In 60 years there has been an exponential explosive growth in takeaway food businesses.

    We get people in to mow our lawns or walk our dogs. And with all tne busyness gone we have time to devote to contemplating gender issues. Oh that Nana and grandma had had that time, and grandpa and pop.

    • Anker 4.1

      Grandma and Grandpa and even our mums and dad's would think the gender stuff was crazy, I am sure.

      They knew all too well who could and who couldn't have babies, who would carry the child, give birth, breast feed etc. They knew it was only women who could do this.

      I would have no interest in discussing gender, but for the insidious way the ideology is imposing itself on women, girls and boys.

  5. Blazer 5

    Here's a gender studies 'expert' who adds ? to the conversation.Seeking the truth is condescending and rude in their world.

    • Stuart Munro 5.1

      Now you know why No Debate is the central tenet of their movement. These are above all post-modernists, persons that accept no criticism or common standards, or terrorist obscurantists as they have been called.

      The traditional term is probably better however – sophists. These folk claim wisdom, but refuse to demonstrate it. Philosophers make no such claim, only that they would prefer wisdom, if they were able to establish what it was.

      • Poission 5.1.1

        The traditional term is probably better however – sophists. These folk claim wisdom, but refuse to demonstrate it

        Isocrates expressed a disdain for the pseudo science of sophists,for both receiving payment to teach falsehoods,and the ability to suggest that "science" can predetermine happiness and success (as an ordered pathway)

        If all who are engaged in the profession of education were willing to state the facts instead of making greater promises than they can possibly fulfill, they would not be in such bad repute with the lay-public. As it is, however, the teachers who do not scruple to vaunt their powers with utter disregard of the truth have created the impression that those who choose a life of careless indolence are better advised than those who devote themselves to serious study.

        Indeed, who can fail to abhor, yes to contemn, those teachers, in the first place, who devote themselves to disputation, since they pretend to search for truth, but straightway at the beginning of their professions attempt to deceive us with lies?

        For I think it is manifest to all that foreknowledge of future events is not vouchsafed to our human nature, but that we are so far removed from this prescience1 that Homer, who has been conceded the highest reputation for wisdom, has pictured even the gods as at times debating among themselves about the future—not that he knew their minds but that he desired to show us that for mankind this power lies in the realms of the impossible.

        1 There is, according to Isocrates, no “science” which can teach us to do under all circumstances the things which will insure our happiness and success. Life is too complicated for that, and no man can foresee exactly the consequences of his acts—“the future is a thing unseen.” All that education can do is to develop a sound judgement (as opposed to knowledge) which will meet the contingencies of life with resourcefulness and, in most cases, with success. This is a fundamental doctrine of his “philosophy” which he emphasizes and echoes again and again in opposition to the professors of a “science of virtue and happiness.”

        http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0144%3Aspeech%3D13%3Asection%3D2

        • Stuart Munro 5.1.1.1

          Thanks – I know it when I see it – but my explanations are less than thorough.

          • Shanreagh 5.1.1.1.1

            SM …….Definitely what I would class as sophistry. I had always thought sophistry was pejorative……like how many gender fluid angels can dance on a pin head etc.

            Most irritating was the turning the question back on the questioner which can be an aid to developing thinking skills but done to excess, as this guy (the so-called Professor) did it, adds nothing.

            It is a lily white version of the Socratic method where in a dialogue between the two the answer would be found.

            I can see that people should be free to be and express themselves as they wish. The prime caveat is that it harms no-one else. The way this movement is shaping up it is laying to waste any advances against misogyny and harming women.

    • Shanreagh 5.2

      Its almost like a parody….please, please tell me its a parody. Please tell me this interview is not true.

      Sounds like they should read this piece about alternative facts.

      https://theconversation.com/theres-no-such-thing-as-alternative-facts-5-ways-to-spot-misinformation-and-stop-sharing-it-online-152894

      sad

  6. I haven't listened to all of this – (my transit time today – which is my usual listening time, has been cut short) – but the excerpts from the promo sound really good.

    I know that Paula Bennet is anathema to many here – but it sounds like a really good interview with Michelle Dickinson (aka Nanogirl) who is someone I have a lot of time for.

    The more we can make science an interesting and cool thing to be interested in, and potentially to build a career around, the better of NZ will be as a society.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/education/ask-me-anything-paula-bennett-and-dr-michelle-dickinson-on-education-pregnancy-and-sexism-in-engineering/4TFBSZIXXWWFXD4NEV6CZSZ7AY/?c_id=1&objectid=12549486&ref=rss

  7. Anker 7

    OK pretty obvious that Health NZ is leaking like a sift.

  8. Anker 8

    Sive. Cheers Robert.

    1. Rumour has it from a good source that there is a debate within Health NZ about how to define what is a women.

    2. Leak about a drag queen karioke event for staff.

    3. Dr Carol Hamilton (whoever she is) on twitter showing the new software with various genders, pro nouns etc.

    • Shanreagh 8.1

      I found this Dr Carol Hamilton. She references this thread on TS I think

      • weka 8.1.1

        What you’ve done there is link to her account not the tweet. This means what we see is her latest tweets not the one being referred to.

        to link to a tweet (or blog post or FB post or any social media post), always click on the time/date stamp on the tweet/post you want and then copy the URL.

  9. pat 9

    Engaging with rhe public health system currently in a couple of different aspects the only word that seems appropriate is 'disarray'….particularly the hospitals.

    The inmates are truly running the asylum.

    When trust is lost it is exceedingly difficult to regain.

    • Graeme 9.1

      We've had an ongoing interaction with the health system that's spanned the Covid period and haven't noticed that much of a change on the Health System side. Have noticed a bit of a change in patient attitude, which in some cases has gone south in a big way, and Health System adjustments to manage that. Found everything efficient and organised to manage with Covid and the fuckwits.

      Where we have seen a change is that the old geographic boundaries around the South seem to be going and wider options are talked about.

      • pat 9.1.1

        Had significant interaction with the hospital system the couple of years prior to covid and the difference is like night and day….pre covid obviously constrained but functional, currently not so.

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