Open mike 04/11/2022

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, November 4th, 2022 - 177 comments
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177 comments on “Open mike 04/11/2022 ”

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  1. PsyclingLeft.Always 1
    4 November 2022 at 8:26 am

    Work begins on Gore wind farm

    The turbines will generate enough power to run 20,000 homes or 66,000 electric vehicles.

    https://www.odt.co.nz/regions/southland/work-begins-gore-wind-farm

    Well…aint that a Positive ! Good work

  2. Gosman 2
    4 November 2022 at 9:03 am

    Tricledrown…

    4 November 2022 at 8:21 am

    Gosman your claim that Maori agriculture was in decline by the 1850s is pure white supremacist lies.Maori farmers were supplying most of the food to the migrants as well as the Australian gold fields as well as Calfornia,Maori owned most of the coastal shipping during this time.Most Eurupean settlers in the early days came from urban enviroments and didn't know how to farm plus most of land they had settled on wasn't fertile.The decline of Maori agriculture happened a decade later than your spurious claim and that occurred because of confiscation of land by colonial settlers.which you willfully ignore to paint Maori in the worst possible light even though they were excellent at adopting modern technology as well as being good business people.

    In response to this erroneous statement from Tricledown in another post here are some actual facts.

    From this paper on Maori economic development:

    https://researcharchive.lincoln.ac.nz/bitstream/handle/10182/2414/osullivan_mapplsc.pdf?sequence=6&isAllowed=y

    "By the 1850s the Maori economy was unstable due to the high levels of debt accumulated by various hapu and rangatira. Large-scale investments in schooners and flourmills, as well as their lavish spending in some cases on hakari, caused many Maori to be frequently in debt in the 1850s (Monin, 1995). Maori in the 1800s viewed schooners and flourmills as visible symbols of mana and invested in building them even when there was little economic rationale for doing so. The accumulation of mana and the honouring of obligations created under tohatoha resulted in rangatira hosting ever more sumptuous hakari. Europeans were happy to extend rangatira credit to enable this spending, using tribal land as security with a view to eventually securing the land when the debt could not be repaid.

    In 1856 there was a slump in the Victorian market while at the same time European settlements in New Zealand began to become self-sufficient in food production. Wheat prices collapsed from ten to twelve shillings a bushel to three shillings (Miller, 1940). At this price it became uneconomical for Maori to harvest their wheat crops as the price fetched would not remunerate them for their labour. European farmers engaged in cropping responded to the fall in agricultural prices by switching to pastoralism, which required larger areas of land and capital investment in stock, fencing and buildings (Sorrenson, 1995)"

    As you can see from that Maori over extended themselves for non commercial reasons and were not able to switch to other commercial activities as Europeans were able to do so.

    • bwaghorn 2.1
      4 November 2022 at 12:23 pm

      ""Maori overextended themselves

      You mean people that had only just met a monetary system where ruthlessly taken advantage of by scum money lenders

      • Gosman 2.1.1
        4 November 2022 at 12:30 pm

        No. I mean a people who had been engaged in international trade and had an awareness of the nature of that trading system for around five decades had a societal structure built around small competing collectives which meant they over capitalised for status as much as economic reasons and ended up have surplus capacity which then meant they were unable to easily switch to more productive use of resources when the original business model they were following inevitably collapse as a result.

        • bwaghorn 2.1.1.1
          4 November 2022 at 12:38 pm

          Na,money lenders need to be held responsible if the lend beyond what a business can support, praying on people's weakness is not an excuse

          • AB 2.1.1.1.1
            4 November 2022 at 4:22 pm

            The Gosmanite hypothesis goes like this: a state of perfect competition existed at the time – no ulterior motives such as wishing to dispossess Maori of land were in play. Maori were simply out-competed due to their internal cultural contradictions. In essence they weren't individualistic enough to be successful over the long run.

            Even if this was true – and it seems contestable – so what? Would it make the ensuing penury Maori experienced somehow deserved? Does it mean that there is nothing to fix in the present? Should Maori be forever grateful at being rescued from their collectivist darkness and welcomed into the bright, sunlit uplands of market capitalism – where, despite their valiant and failed 19th Century attempt, we are magnanimously offering them the freedom to try again?

            Who knows. It's an old, dead, rancid line of thinking best ignored..

        • Ad 2.1.1.2
          4 November 2022 at 1:42 pm

          Far north and far south coastal mana whenua were pretty commercial from 1820s. Sydney trading was really early too.

          Salmon has 2 good books on this exchange era. They knew how to deal.

    • swordfish 2.2
      4 November 2022 at 9:55 pm

      .
      Gosman.

      Might just add that Trickledown was mistaken on this aspect as well:

      Most European settlers in the early days came from urban enviroments and didn't know how to farm

      In fact, the overwhelming majority of migrants in the 1840s & 50s came from rural & village backgrounds in the most southern third of England … disproportionately agricultural labourers & traditional rural craft workers … hence, skilled rural folk whose wages & crafts were under threat in ‘the Old Country’.

      Very few urban industrial workers or, for that matter, white collar workers.

  3. Patricia Bremner 3
    4 November 2022 at 9:35 am

    Well Gosman, you have described the "Fire Sale Economy" right there!!angry and this is how finance and strategy denudes people of their assets in bad times.

    Except this Government is striving to keep people employed…. to break the cycle. for Maori European and all!!

    • Gosman 3.1
      4 November 2022 at 9:52 am

      Wait until mortgage interest rates hit 8 – 10 % next year and see how many people the Government has been able to keep in jobs…

      • Maurice 3.1.1
        4 November 2022 at 10:20 am

        At 8 to10% interest rates just how keen will any institution be to lend on negative equity housing held by borrowers with reduced ability to pay the inflated interest repayments?

        • Gosman 3.1.1.1
          4 November 2022 at 10:53 am

          That is not how interest rates work. If the cost of money is at 6 to 8 % then banks have to charge 8 to 10% to make a profit.

        • Patricia Bremner 3.1.1.2
          4 November 2022 at 12:19 pm

          I helped my Mum pay her 18% mortgage on her unit she moved to after my Father's sudden death. We worked together through that and the surcharge put on pensions by National. She took a boarder for part of a year.

          You do what you have to do, and secure parents/children will help family members hang on, and Banks do not want surplus mortgagee sales, as they devalue the portfolio of properties held against loans. There have been much tougher times than these, and many of us recognise the familiar rhetoric.

      • millsy 3.1.2
        4 November 2022 at 1:31 pm

        A lot of people are going to be wiped out, that is for sure.

  4. millsy. 4
    4 November 2022 at 9:45 am

    Ok, ban should be over now. Trying to post for days now.

    • Incognito 4.1
      4 November 2022 at 10:15 am

      It doesn’t help when you make typos in your username that trigger Auto-Moderation and require manual approval by a Mod.

  5. millsy 5
    4 November 2022 at 9:46 am

    Well, I made it to where my posts are visible. That is progress.

    • Incognito 5.1
      4 November 2022 at 10:23 am

      Apologies for the delay.

      Since this free forum runs on a few volunteers given their personal time freely, it sometimes means that certain much less important things don’t get done in a prompt manner or at all. I’d hope that people would understand this rather than starting to complain too loudly with self-entitled demands for prompt service.

  6. millsy 6
    4 November 2022 at 9:47 am

    Right, looks like my ban is defintely over. Im back after a long period in the wilderness. I promise that I will behave this time.

  7. Shanreagh 7
    4 November 2022 at 9:49 am

    As you can see from that Maori over extended themselves for non commercial reasons and were not able to switch to other commercial activities as Europeans were able to do so

    And, only half joking, we've held it against them ever since.

    Any view of Maori agriculture nowadays usually holds up these so-called disadvantages

    • the work is on communally held land
    • the work programmes etc have to take account of this
    • the returns have to be shared or agreement sought to put profits back into the property, when you are having trouble putting food on the table, in those days a bit extra such as the shareholder payments could make a difference
    • the owners have to find solicitors and accountants who have a knowledge and sympathy with these landowning/use arrangement……perhaps easier now that there are Maori trained lawyers and accountants.

    I have long felt that it was ironic that sometimes for Maori the best least troublesome answer was to let the land lie. Fast forward to today and there is a keenness to develop their land. But while the land has been allowed to sleep it has grown native trees, or perhaps the native trees were there all along.

    'We can't let these Murrays cut down these trees/develop this land' . They are the last of the remnant XYZ forest, wetland, swampland, refuge of bowtied, blue eyed swampworm.

    And even if you want to put small scale Kaumatua housing there what about the fullscale sewage system, roads etc that we require.

    .

    • Gosman 7.1
      4 November 2022 at 9:55 am

      Considering Maori burnt down most of the Native forest cover of NZ pre 1840 perhaps it is karma that much of the land under their control has reverted to forests.

      • roy cartland 7.1.1
        4 November 2022 at 10:32 am

        Can you give a link to this, I'd like to read a bit more about it. Thanks.

        • Gosman 7.1.1.1
          4 November 2022 at 10:54 am

          https://teara.govt.nz/en/map/23596/forest-cover-before-human-habitation

          https://teara.govt.nz/en/map/23597/forest-cover-around-1840

          “The New Zealand bush did not provide as much food as forests in tropical Polynesia. Significant bush clearance went on in the North and South islands, usually by burning. This was to clear land for horticulture and also to promote the growth of aruhe (fern root)”

          • roy cartland 7.1.1.1.1
            4 November 2022 at 11:40 am

            I found those, but I was hoping to get a bit more detail; you said "most".

            • Gosman 7.1.1.1.1.1
              4 November 2022 at 11:42 am

              Look at the map. You will see it is most.

              • Tricledrown …
                4 November 2022 at 11:52 am

                Gosman How you word your first comment Most of the native forest implies Maori burn't down most of our Native forests.When you read more of Te Ara's website Maori burnt only 40% of Native forest meaning 60% was left unburnt .But left tree stumps which prevented erosion.You are trying to paint Maori in the worst possible way at every opportunity.Most means more than is unburnt which means your lying again.

                • Gosman …
                  4 November 2022 at 12:03 pm

                  No, it was closer to 50 % than 40% of the pre settlement cover. The Canterbury plains weren't grasslands of any significance before the Maori burnt down the forest cover to drive out animals that they were hunting for food like Moa. There wasn't much stumps left to stop erosion there.

            • Gosman 7.1.1.1.1.2
              4 November 2022 at 11:51 am

              http://frfanz.org.nz/history/before-1840/

              "By the time of widespread European settlement in the 1840s and 1850s, close to 50% of the original forest cover had been destroyed."

              • Gosman …
                4 November 2022 at 12:10 pm

                NZ's forest cover stands at around 37 % now. This means Since mass European settlement began in 1840 the total land cover of forests fell from around 50% to 37 % which is about a 15 % loss of forest cover across the entire country compared to total land mass. Even if we round up to 20% that is still less proportionately of the REMAINING forest that European settlers cut and burnt than Maori were responsible for destroying.

              • Tricledrown …
                4 November 2022 at 12:40 pm

                Gosman reading your link TE Ara, Maori cleared 6.7 million hectares ,settlers 8 million hectares ,7 million left in native forest. Thats not 50% of total land area your WRONG again.Your prejudice prevents you from telling the truth.

                • Gosman …
                  4 November 2022 at 1:07 pm

                  How do you figure settlers cleared more than Maori when the land area covered by forests went from over 85% before the Maori arrived to only just over 50% in 1850. That is Even if we take 30 % of the land mass cleared by Maori that is more than that is more than that cleared by Europeans which is between 25 and 28% of the total land mass if we don’t include planting of exotics.

            • Drowsy M. Kram 7.1.1.1.1.3
              4 November 2022 at 12:07 pm

              There's some more detail on these pages. Just for info – not 'having a go' at any group – Polynesian peoples started the 'job'; Europeans 'progressed' it.

              Page 1 – Early human impact Before people, >80% of NZ was forested.

              Page 2 – Pre-European deforestation
              "… up to 40% of the forest was burnt within 200 years of Māori settling in NZ"

              Page 3 – European impact "By 2005, forest cover was reduced to 24.8%…"

              https://teara.govt.nz/en/human-effects-on-the-environment/sources

              Where Aotearoa New Zealand goes from here is up to all of us. Be kind.

                • Drowsy M. Kram …
                  4 November 2022 at 1:06 pm

                  We have started to reforest areas of NZ. Forest cover (including exotics) is up to 37 % of the total land mass.

                  According to the graph in that link, “forest area (% of land area)” didn’t change from 2009 – 2016 (~37.4%) and then rose to 37.57% in 2020.

                  I would like to investigate the basis for the apparent increase from 24.8% “forest cover” (in 2005) to 37.4% “forest area” four years later (2009), given the tiny (<0.2%) increase since then, but alas don't have the time.

                  • Gosman …
                    4 November 2022 at 1:16 pm

                    37% includes exotics. 25% is just Native forest.

                    • Drowsy M. Kram …
                      4 November 2022 at 2:24 pm

                      37% includes exotics. 25% is just Native forest.

                      So about 12% (37% total – 25% native) of total land area is in exotics?

                      We have started to reforest areas of NZ.

                      What surprised me was how stable the total "forest area" has been in recent years – it increased by <0.2% from 2009 to 2020, and all that (tiny) increase occurred after 2016. The link you provided shows that "forest area" (native and exotic) covered ~35.6% of total land area in 1990, so over the last 30+ years forestation has increased by ~2.2% of total land area. Most of that 2.2% increase occurred from 1990-2000.

                      New Zealand's forests today [reviewed 5 May 2022]

                      Today, New Zealand has a total of 10.1 million hectares of forests, covering 38% [37.8%] of the land.

                      Of this:

                      • 8 million hectares are native forest
                      • 2.1 million hectares are plantation forest. Of this, 1.7 million hectares is productive and the remainder is in reserves and unplanted areas near bodies of water, and infrastructure.

                      These 2 classes of forest have different biology, management, and values to New Zealanders.

                      So, ~30% native and 7.8% plantation forest today – mass planting of exotic species started in the 1920s.

                      The history of New Zealand's forests

                      In Māori mythology, the creator of the first human also created the forests, connecting the two forever. The story goes that the kaitiaki (guardian) Tāne Mahuta created the forests by separating his parents, Papatūānuku (the earth mother) and Ranginui (the sky father), letting light into the world.

                      Forests have long been revered by Māori for their beauty and spiritual value, and for providing the food, medicines, weaving, and building materials necessary for survival.

                      New Zealand’s native forests are unique and support a huge range of plants and animals, many species of which are found only here.

                      Before people reached New Zealand, more than 80% of the land was covered in lush, dense native forest and shrublands. As more people arrived, they cleared large tracts of land for settlements and to grow food, using the native timber to build towns and fence farms.

                      Native forests were cleared so rapidly that by 1913, some native species were threatened with extinction. To reduce the pressure on native forests, exports of native timber were restricted, and in 1925, incentives were introduced to create plantations of exotic species. Radiata pine was the preferred tree crop, having been shown to grow faster in New Zealand than anywhere else in the world.

                      Mass plantings of exotic species in the 1920s, 30s and 60s created a robust forestry industry that supplied all New Zealand's domestic timber needs and secured the future of the remaining native forest.

                      https://teara.govt.nz/en/exotic-forestry

      • Tricledrown 7.1.2
        4 November 2022 at 11:24 am

        Gosman back to your colonial supremacist lies Maori burnt some native forest in the south island not most of the native forest in NZ. Its like" their control "under their is a dehumanizing denigration , being very careful not imply Maori owned the the land.Your lying about that land has reverted to forest trying to blame Maori again for an introduced invasive species.You would change your narrow minded attitude if you spent just one day on a Marae.You are a dinosaur bully! maybe if you walked in the shoes of Maori you wouldn't have such antiquated ideas.Maori businesses are expanding at a more rapid rate than all other businesses in NZ today.That has happened even though most of the land Maori owned was stolen or defrauded by insider trading the fraudulent NZ company etc.Maori were not allowed the freedoms to educate in their own language and culture creating inter generational poverty where the media and white european NZers used every dirty trick to denigrate Maori and grind Maori into oblivian.The newspaper Stuff apologised 18 months ago for its continual racial denegration in its newpaper.Assimlation ie cultural genocide hasn't worked Maori have shown even though they have constantly had the rug pulled from under them the likes of Ngai Tahu have shown that they can run businesses better than many Europeans.Without Maori NZ would be a boring little out post of England.The first cruise ships returned recently many greeted by Maori Haka and songs the tourists couldn't get enough .Like wise without Maori in sport NZ's prowess in much of our elite sport NZ wouldn't have the Allblacks one of our two greatest golfers netball team kayaking gold medals.Our laid back friendly world beating attitude.Our Army general Mataparai.I would like you to meet some Maori business people such as a relative of mine the CEO and major sharehoder of Ryder and co an international company based in Melbourne he is worth nearly A$ 1billion you couldn't meet a more humble guy.unlike yourself.

        • Gosman 7.1.2.1
          4 November 2022 at 11:42 am

          I provided a link to you. By 1840 the vast majority of the forest cover of NZ that existed before human settlement had been removed. This is not a controversial topic but known scientific reality.

          • Tricledrown 7.1.2.1.1
            4 November 2022 at 11:57 am

            Your own link proves you wrong maybe you should read a bit deeper and type in how much forest Maori cleared it comes up at 40% of Native forest leaving 60% unburnt.Your racially abusing Maori by making false and incomplete statements.

            • Gosman 7.1.2.1.1.1
              4 November 2022 at 12:07 pm

              It was close to 50% of the 85% of the land mass of NZ that was covered by forests before the Maori arrived. Do you know how many Maori lived in the entire South Island in 1840 after they had denuded the landscape of this forest cover?

          • Gosman 7.1.2.1.2
            4 November 2022 at 12:00 pm

            I need to correct myself here. It is around 50% not the vast majority. My mistake so sorry about that.

            • Shanreagh 7.1.2.1.2.1
              4 November 2022 at 1:22 pm

              Any thoughts about how this blows out your argument? What is/was the point of your argument BTW. Just a Friday session of Maori bashing to make it all good for the weekend or was there some deeper purpose that you are going to explain to us?

              • Gosman …
                4 November 2022 at 3:53 pm

                I was responding to trickledown's comments in another thread/ Take it up with trickledown if you want to know the reasons for the discussion.

            • roy cartland 7.1.2.1.2.2
              4 November 2022 at 3:09 pm

              Regardless of your point, that is indeed a significant amount of burnoff, I never knew that. Thanks.

          • Shanreagh 7.1.2.1.3
            4 November 2022 at 12:04 pm

            And the relevance is to today is?

            Sounds like very antiquated thinking that people pay over and over and over for things that were common in those days (NB on some pastoral leases in the South Island firing areas is still common practice/permitted)

            https://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1998/0065/latest/DLM427002.html

            https://fireandemergency.nz/en_NZ/farms-rural-properties-and-rural-businesses/fire-as-a-land-management-tool/

            https://teara.govt.nz/en/fire-and-agriculture

            https://digitalnz.org/stories/5b19a05ffb002c36a2c014e6

            In the 1800s the Royal Navy was still press ganging

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impressment

            In 1833 slavery in England was abolished.

            Slavery Abolition Act, (1833), in British history, act of Parliament that abolished slavery in most British colonies, freeing more than 800,000 enslaved Africans in the Caribbean and South Africa as well as a small number in Canada. It received Royal Assent on August 28, 1833, and took effect on August 1, 1834.

            As they say

            'The past is a different country – they did things differently there'

            Why are you singling this out? Is there some reasonable explanation? Do you not know very much about farming practices generally and the life of pre-European Maori?

      • Shanreagh 7.1.3
        4 November 2022 at 1:19 pm

        I guess you would have a comment like that that doesn't add anything to anything.

  8. Molly 8
    4 November 2022 at 10:22 am

    Ministry of Health follows the advocacy produced WPATH guidelines for provision of services.

    Eliza Mondegreen attended the WPATH conference that introduced the newly released Standards of Care 8. Short video (3min) of an exchange with Benjamin Boyce.

    This is just one of the presentations that should start questions being asked about using this advice as the primary basis for patient-centred care:

    https://twitter.com/BenjaminABoyce/status/1588275205452926976?s=20&t=1qFpOdJ0F00ASz9uK8Dsdw

    • Anker 8.1
      4 November 2022 at 10:52 am

      Thanks Molly. Complete insanity.

      The crazy movement in the 1990s in some psychotherapy circles, which took hold leading many therapists to believe that MPD was a common condition (many MPD clinics opened across the States to deal with the demand and have since folded) mets the latest in therapeutic craze, Affirmation Therapy for gender dysphoria.

      Wpath is totally ideological driven and our Ministry of Health take their lead as does Wpath's equivalent here in NZ, PATHA.

      My post, which follows on from this about the trainee psychotherapist and CRT theory,is another angle on how Western institutions (in this case health) have been infiltrated by people with a political ideology. There is no role for these ideologicals in health or therapy. Treatments should be evidenced based (the evidence coming from people who dont have a political agenda)

  9. Anker 9
    4 November 2022 at 10:28 am

    NHS nurse who was training to be a psychotherapist at the Tavistock Clinic is now suing the clinic. She was in her final year and received on-line training (during Covid) that included CRT, stating all white people are racist (amongst other claims). She politely said she disagreed with there views and from there it unfolded, leading to the Tavistock threatening her that she would not be able to work as a psychotherapist and she had to agree with this ideology. On another clip I have watched of this very articulate nurse being interviewed she says she was told she must raise BLM with people of colour clients. As she articulates well, psychotherapy is not a collective endeavour, but a personal one based on the clients issues and needs.

    I am posting this because there was some talk of ideology on OM a few days back. This is what some of us are talking about when we express concerns about CRT infiltrating the public service, media and academia. Chris Trotter posted a very good article about a piece NZ Health has put out that is "anti racist" (will try and link).
    https://bowalleyroad.blogspot.com/2022/10/eliminating-racism-virus.html

    I also made a comment the other day that I don't believe there is much racism at all in the health service. (having worked there many, many moons ago, I can assure you no one in our unit was racist) Health Professionals go into the field because they want to help others (like teachers who become teachers because they have an affirnity for kids). The only patients health professionals might favour a little are they ones who are polite and co operative, because it makes life a little easier (these patients come in all races and can be either male or female).

    There are health enquities that undoubtedly need to be addressed, but CRT is not the way forward. It is insulting to health professionals and will likely be another nail in the coffin for many. A piss poor recruitment strategy NZ Health

    • Shanreagh 9.1
      4 November 2022 at 12:37 pm

      I am really concerned that CRT is being raised as some sort of bogeyman/that were are doing this here.

      We have had programmes here in NZ to ensure that all our citizens have an ability to take advantage of life in our country so they can be everything they want to be. We have taught our citizens about the Land Wars, the Treaty and the impacts for many many years. So stop trying to say this is an example of the CRT derided by the US Republicans (that should tell you how much we should be upset about this, ie not at all.)

      CRT is a US construct where equity and equality are still very much 'new' and scary things.

      https://www.brookings.edu/blog/fixgov/2021/07/02/why-are-states-banning-critical-race-theory/

      I cannot see the harm in teaching how discrimination begins and the drivers that enable it to continue. Also teaching how NZ has tried to overcome this.

      I was part of the grouping of 4 RHAs in the 1990s and the strides in Maori health when services were delivered in a safe for Maori way was amazing. It tapped into networks that had existed for years, said these will improve access for Maori let's run with them.

      What happened to the good thought that each according to their needs. If we pay attention to the worst off in our society our whole society benfits.

      https://www.brookings.edu/blog/fixgov/2021/07/02/why-are-states-banning-critical-race-theory/

      The fact that CRT is decried by Fox news, US Republicans surely would give many people pause to think

      'hey what is this all about/ is this based in fact?

      is this what is going on in NZ?' NO

      Are to the last one I can say this is not what is going on in NZ. We have had these programmes for years possibly a century.

      Your protestations about the health service and how it is not racist were heard 40 years ago, close examination showed that some practices were both racist and sexist. (Anyone for a repeat of the the Cervical Cancer /unethical research)

      https://www.womens-health.org.nz/the-cartwright-inquiry/

      We had training modules in the health syllabuses. Many places had treaty training. Things have got better. We have all sorts of practices now

      Ethics committees

      H & Disability Commisioner and consents

      Focus on Maori in some areas as being those most affected by certain health problems

      Access though is still patchy.

      My request:

      Please don't bring in terms like CRT into the NZ context. We had enough of imported US bullshit during the Covid pandemic.

      The US has very little to teach us in terms of race relations. We are ahead of them but we still have plenty ahead to do.

      We are best to do this in our own way and setting up a straw man like anti CRT and saying it is our way is nonsense.

      • pat 9.1.1
        4 November 2022 at 7:42 pm

        "Please don't bring in terms like CRT into the NZ context. We had enough of imported US bullshit during the Covid pandemic'

        Then stop advocating it

        • Shanreagh 9.1.1.1
          4 November 2022 at 10:36 pm

          I'm not advocating it. Far from it. I think we have our own solutions to our own problems. Just because there is a renewed focus on racism (which does exist) etc in health it does not mean we are adopting the CRT stuff. Racism in health is certainly less pervasive in a one on one basis, but we cannot afford to let our guard down and think we have won the battle against racism/sexism because everything looks OK.

          The fact that many many people misunderstand the Treaty system, ascribe unfair motives to Maori land use is evidence that there is much work still to be done. Similarly when Maori are at the bottom of many of the health figures does this mean our work is done?

        • Molly 9.1.1.2
          7 November 2022 at 11:42 am

          "Then stop advocating it"

          I don't think many understand that the familiarity some have with CRT theory, allows them to recognise the familiar justifications and perspectives that are coming through in public discourse in NZ.

          Because it is labelled under Te Tiriti, or other specific NZ terms, they believe it is unique. Some aspects are, but much of the reasonings, justifications, solutions and priorities are duplicates of what Critical Race Theory is advocating for in the US.

      • Anker 9.1.2
        4 November 2022 at 9:21 pm

        But I am not the one bringing CRT into the NZ context. NZ Health is doing it now.

        Will post more tomorrow. Meanwhile, feel free to read Chris Trotters article on the racism virus (or not, no problem if its not for you).

        I am commenting on the current situation, not when Professor Green was conducting his "unfortunate" experiement.

        • Shanreagh 9.1.2.1
          4 November 2022 at 10:55 pm

          But racism is not a sickness, it is a political belief. As such, it stands to be argued against and condemned. But, attempting to eliminate “all forms of racism” under the guise of a government health programme is sinister in the extreme.

          This is rubbish. If we substitute sexism, discrimination on the grounds of disability, misogyny for racism…

          But racism sexism is not a sickness, it is a political belief. As such, it stands to be argued against and condemned. But, attempting to eliminate “all forms of racism” under the guise of a government health programme is sinister in the extreme.

          Trotter has clearly forgotten how every single Govt dept had./probabaly still has similar words…..it was not to treat it as a sickness in health terms but as a concerning symptom of a belief in the inequality of people, a belief that unalterable aspects of the human condition (race, sex, ability/disability) makes it equitable to treat people differently for the worse..

          It is not a political belief. That is banal.

          The human rights arguments and its history 1948 after WW2 via the UN declarations transcend political beliefs.

          https://www.un.org/en/about-us/universal-declaration-of-human-rights

          eg The Universal Declaration of Human Rights

          Article 1

          All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.

          • Shanreagh 9.1.2.1.1
            4 November 2022 at 11:28 pm

            I have looked at Te Whatu Hauora https://www.tewhatuora.govt.nz/

            These below are included. These are uncontroversial and have been in health documents from the mid 1990s (as well as in the Public Service) .

            • addresses the persistent inequalities experienced by Māori
            • ensures greater access, experience and outcomes for those traditionally not well served by the system – Māori, Pacific and Disabled People

            The Foundations: completely uncontroversial. The RHAs were working on population based health/funding back in the 1990s. Thankfully it has been resurrected.

            • Health equity matters for everyone
            • Embedding a Tiriti-dynamic health system
            • Implementing a population health approach
            • Ensuring a sustainable health service delivery system

            Embedding a Tiriti-dynamic health system: This is uncontroversial

            To meet our obligations as Crown agents, we are building a health system that embeds Te Tiriti o Waitangi as its foundation. This means placing Te Tiriti at the forefront of thinking and providing opportunities to enact Te Tiriti principles and articles to improve health outcomes for Māori.

            Implementing a population health approach: this is new and may be controversial though it is sensible

            A population health approach, shifts our system to prevent illness and improve the health and wellbeing of local communities. We recognise that people’s health can be achieved by collaboration with communities working together to plan, design and deliver health services

            I have looked at these high level documents and cannot see anything that could cause criticism. Many of the tenets have been included in the PS for many years and in health documents since the 1990s.

            Embedding the Treaty is similarly uncontroversial.

            Possibly the Don Brash type Iwi/kiwi mischief makers have been at work in trying to say that Treaty issues and focusing on health for those at the bottom is CRT? I don't know.

            But much of the good words, aspirations, programmes have been in health documents before, just as they have been in Education documents as well.

            I would really like to see where the words CRT have been used. Or have the standard ToW words and aspirations been misinterpreted? It would not surprise me if this were the case. In recent times on TS we have seen Three Waters co-governance and Treaty claims misunderstood.

            • Sacha 9.1.2.1.1.1
              4 November 2022 at 11:41 pm

              Cathode Ray Tube was the only NZ usage over many decades. 🙂

              Uncritical import of northern hemisphere ideas (and funds) by right wing extremists has become too common. VFF, the Taxdodgers Onion and other astroturfers are a conduit for ignorant hatred that ignores long NZ traditions of thought and politics. And for what?

              • Shanreagh …
                4 November 2022 at 11:55 pm

                Yes sounds like that…all running scared because a Govt agency document mentions the Treaty, shock horror.

                Calling it Critical Race Theory so they can get all angry, and confused.

                Forgetting that the Treaty is /has been mentioned in PS documents for nigh on 20 years. Treaty Settlements have been around as follows

                The Waitangi Tribunal was set up in 1975 to hear claims about Crown breaches of the treaty. From 1985 the tribunal could hear claims relating to breaches dating back to 1840, and it issued reports on these claims.

                …

                The first treaty claim settlement, concerning the Waitomo Caves, was signed in 1989.

                In 1992 the Sealord agreement settled claims over commercial fisheries – it was worth $170 million. Another large settlement involving a number of tribes was the ‘Treelords’ deal in 2008, which included almost $200 million of forest land."

                https://teara.govt.nz/en/nga-whakataunga-tiriti-treaty-of-waitangi-settlement-process

                If I was a betting person I would bet that what is said to be CRT by some is the commonly stated Treaty adherence statements in PS documents. Because this is a health agency it would be a huge mark against it if there were to be a claim under the Treaty against it.

            • Shanreagh 9.1.2.1.1.2
              4 November 2022 at 11:45 pm

              I have found this. it is interesting. It builds on the high level approach

              'Position Statement and Working Definitions for Racism and Anti-racism in the Aotearoa New Zealand Health System'

              https://www.health.govt.nz/system/files/documents/publications/position-statement-and-working-definitions-for-racism-and-anti-racism-in-the-aotearoa-new-zealand-health-system-aug2022.pdf

              Having been around these types of documents all my working life it is one of the better ones I have seen. Good definitions, good examples. A taste of how racism is going to be overcome.

              This part is particularly strong and interlinks the persistent 'isms' that affect people/their health

              'All forms of racism are harmful, and the effects of racism are distinct and not felt equally. Racism is further compounded by additional markers of social difference, including indigeneity, disability, gender, religion, sexual orientation, socioeconomic status, etc.

              As this contains nothing that would fall into concerns about about CRT I have clearly not found the concerning document. Being Treaty focused is surely not controversial today,,,,,,,?

              My big hope is that this organisation is allowed/able to continue its work so we can all see the difference it will make. Most reforms of promise, including some of those that the RHAs had during 1992/96 just get swept away as they form a ball being tossed around in the political process.

              • Molly …
                5 November 2022 at 9:37 am

                If you are perpetually looking for racism, you will undoubtedly find it.

                However, that does not mean it is the most effective factor to address, which is where criticisms of policy arise.

                Some of these policies – implemented without public involvement – such as co-governance, foreseeably set the seeds for racism to grow.

                • Shanreagh …
                  5 November 2022 at 2:17 pm

                  If you read the whole document it is not just racism but many other factors that are best addressed so that NZ's health system can be as efficient and effective and serve the needs of all our people.

                  I have just highlighted the parts dealing with racism as that was the topic being discussed – as if these approaches in the health sector were something new to be concerned about.

                  They are not new. Similar policies and clauses have been in health documentation since 1992/96 at least.

                  The Treaty of Waitangi Act and Human Rights Act etc all bind the Crown. The Crown is honour bound to formulate policies/procedures to help combat racism, sexism and many other isms. The agencies/govt depts etc are 'crown' agencies.

                  What exactly is the problem and why is it a problem now when we have had Treaty settlements since 1989 at least and clauses to recognise the ToW act and HR Act since the 1990s as well.

                  I cannot help but see the fingers of overseas influencers, must as was apparent in the Covid times with concerns that are not ours and solutions that are not ours either.

                  Maori and the Crown are partners in the Treaty. This means they are equal. In recognition of this the Crown has been trying to ensure that Maori have the ability to particiapte as Trwaty partners.

                  When you say co-governance should be consulted on, bearing in mind this is just fulfilling aspects of the Treaty signed in 1840, does this mean that you want to see the whole basis of settlement in NZ renegotiated?

                  What is it that you, in the widest sense, are afraid of?

                  • Molly …
                    6 November 2022 at 6:29 pm

                    "What is it that you, in the widest sense, are afraid of?"

                    That there appears to be a resistance to recognising that balance is necessary in redressing acknowledged failures, and that resistance leads to well intended but badly designed policies and initiatives that result in a divided country.

                    (There is also a degree of pompous paternalism associated with this discussion that I personally find off putting.)

                    • Shanreagh …
                      7 November 2022 at 10:22 am

                      (There is also a degree of pompous paternalism associated with this discussion that I personally find off putting.)

                      Good grief. How sad. I find ignorance off putting but I still want to counter it as many may not know the real oil.

                      The ignorance on here about ToW, Maori issues and human rights is to me truly distressing and extremely sad. Since when did it become a legitimate tactic to see something wrong in human rights for all, championing the underdog and making sure those with the bad indicators at the bottom get the attention they deserve?

                    • Molly …
                      7 November 2022 at 10:49 am

                      @Shanreagh

                      "I find ignorance off putting but I still want to counter it as many may not know the real oil."

                      I suspect – but do not know – that what you find off putting is opinions that vary from your own.

                      I read a lot of what you post, and recognise it for the word count and language that many are capable of when entrenched in a certain culture. (I can do the same, but on this platform choose to try and clarify when expressing my opinion. You seem to indulge in it more from habit than necessity).

                      The identification of racism as a primary reason for the negative outcomes for Māori IS a problem. All the pontificating in the world doesn't address that problem. It adds to it.

                      You may be extremely saddened by the "ignorance".

                      But let's address that: you assume ignorance, because for you, to know about NZ history means to hold the same perspective as you. (God forbid, someone who is informed comes away with their own take).

                      In fact, the more you post, the more convinced I am that this approach is the wrong one.

                      But then what do I know?

                      (I'm the wrong type of Māori apparently, coming from a sad place of ignorance and lacking even the most basic knowledge of Te Tiriti and NZ history, whose life in this country and family relationships are all blighted by colonialism if only I knew it.)

                      It’s inconceivable to you, that I disagree with your perspective on all things right and good, for actual reasons. Any such reasons should be ignored, as they must represent self-loathing brought about by the Crown's actions of the past.

                      Would you like me to thank you, for representing me without reference to my input, and expressing the such concern for myself and my Māori relatives, even while I (and many of them) question the policies? I find I cannot.

                      I think your blindness to the damage that can be done by your good intentions is going to be more harmful to Māori in the long run. And that is also harmful to all NZers.

                      Let's both hope, that if this approach continues, you will be proven right, and my fears about the unintended outcomes will be wrong. I still disagree with many policies or programmes that limits access to those with Māori ancestry only. It remains a reverse form of the lack of access that Māori had in the past, but is now undertaken deliberately and with smug and unevidenced justifications.

              • Anker …
                6 November 2022 at 6:48 pm

                I too had a read of NZ Health document on racism and I would draw your attention to this quote towards the end.

                "although conceptually coherent, establishing the empirical evidence base of racism and each of these impacts has proven to be challenging. Issues of racism exposure measurement and moderating/mediating factors mean that findings are mixed with regards to the relationships between racism and physical health outcomes (Paradies et al 2015). However evidence of race based inequities alone provide a sufficient rationale for action and intervention"

                So here I think it an excellent example of not following the evidence, but following ideology ( I note D'Angelo of CRT is quoted in the document, although I would need to check the context)

                So there is mixed evidence with regards to the relationship between racism and physical health outcomes. in our health system That isn't a great basis for putting Health care staff who are at crisis point under more stress by sending them off to (likely CRT) anti racism training. As I have said elsewhere it is likely to add another nail in the coffin to struggling health care workers working in what some healthcare staff have described as dangerous conditions. Again I note that these healthcare workers have to put up with verbal and at times physcial abuse while trying to carry out their role. NZ health should be trying to do something about that.

                FFS. Please god put this stuff aside and prioritise sorting out the health workforce NZ is facing. This is bloody serious.

                As I have said my experience of working in the health system. talking to others who still work in the health system, attending various appointment with my husband who is Maori, racism is way down the list of what Minister Little needs to be addressing. My husband gets excellent treatment.

            • Incognito 9.1.2.1.1.3
              5 November 2022 at 10:37 am

              In recent times on TS we have seen Three Waters co-governance and Treaty claims misunderstood.

              Some of that is ignorance and genuine confusion, but some of that is a deliberate tactic to re-write and re-interpret NZ history affairs and ‘simplify’ it for the NZ public and usually labelled ‘common sense’.

              https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/476401/act-launches-anti-co-governance-proposals

              https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300543923/most-parties-celebrate-the-new-history-curriculum-but-act-criticises-it-as-divisive

              This counter propaganda wave has become much stronger over the last few years and most certainly is not restricted to local influence only. Of course, NZ has never been completely isolated from overseas ‘thought experiments’ and neither should it be. As a sovereign nation with many freedoms and a functioning democracy we should be using our own critical filters before we accept the ‘answers & solutions’ of others and force them upon ourselves as if one size fits all. The point is that some political players are not interested in answers & solutions that suit Aotearoa – New Zealand and are quite happy to borrow tools & weapons from overseas and anywhere to further their own agenda.

              Co-governance is about a bridge or rather, a whole network of roads & bridges, to make this nation more cohesive, inclusive, and resilient, which is a pre-requisite for surviving future global disasters. Antagonising forces are doing anything they can to turn it into a wedge issue to drive people & groups further apart and set them up against each other. This is not new in Aotearoa – New Zealand despite the new slogans coming from overseas.

              • Shanreagh …
                5 November 2022 at 2:39 pm

                Co-governance is about a bridge or rather, a whole network of roads & bridges, to make this nation more cohesive, inclusive, and resilient, which is a pre-requisite for surviving future global disasters. Antagonising forces are doing anything they can to turn it into a wedge issue to drive people & groups further apart and set them up against each other. This is not new in Aotearoa – New Zealand despite the new slogans coming from overseas.

                This Incognito is a piece of brilliant imagery, especially the the first sentence and is proof positive that story-telling as an explanatory mode has a place in explaining these issues when plain words do not seem to suffice.

                The point is that some political players are not interested in answers & solutions that suit Aotearoa – New Zealand and are quite happy to borrow tools & weapons from overseas and anywhere to further their own agenda.

                This is what I am seeing at the moment. We get the straw man argument from Fox news and the US Republicans about the US strategy to overcome racism in the US that is called CRT. Having brought the straw man into NZ they then rail against CRT as if some thing similar is/has been happening here, by stealth. The argument is amorphous, like fighting a cloud.

                The reality is that our situation is different and we have over the years developed our own ways of dealing with it.

                Apparently causing concern now is a fairly standard, therefore innocuous, clause about racism in the Heath Sector. As I have said I worked in an RHA during the 1990s and our own corporate documents had similar clauses and we 'audited' providers of health services against this type of policy they had in their corporate documents. We also audited against complaints procedures, made sure Ethics Committees functioned as they should, made sure standard careful contracts were drawn up etc.

                None of this stuff is new. Overseas contacts and influencers and as Sacha says 'righties', and you cite ACT, appear to have seized on these topics to foment discord and divert attention away from the health agencies from being able to do their jobs.

                The more time that is wasted by having to respond to this type of thing, diverts attention away from people who want to be able to do their jobs in the health sector. The resources to answer Ministerials, parliamentary questions and general hoo-ha stuff are also the resources who are setting up the best functioning processes for the new agencies. The resources are not infinite.

    • gsays 9.2
      4 November 2022 at 7:07 pm

      That was a little unsettling, thanks Anker.

      The note it ended on implied that the train wreck, that is the UK government, was one of the bright lights in dealing with this ideology…

      • Anker 9.2.1
        4 November 2022 at 9:17 pm

        Yes I found it hugely concerning Gsays. And I thought the UK was better than that.

        I hope she sues the pants off them and it brings this whole bullshit down. It is happening in NZ. Been looking through Health NZs proclamation on racism and its is worrying. Will post more tommorrow.

  10. Anne 10
    4 November 2022 at 10:32 am

    Efeso Collins is interviewed about his big loss in Auckland's mayoralty race:

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/477993/efeso-collins-says-his-skin-colour-cost-him-20-000-votes-in-auckland-mayoral-race

    He has played down the racist taunts he encountered during the campaign. The "black c**t retort was only one of them and I'm ashamed to say a lot of it occurred during his visit to the North Shore electorate although thankfully not the part where I live.

    Contrary to attempts to claim otherwise… NZ is a very racist country.

    • Molly 10.1
      4 November 2022 at 12:14 pm

      Anne, I'm not negating the presence of racism in our country, – however –

      Auckland is often referred to as the largest Polynesian city in the Pacific. There were plenty of voters who could outnumber the racist voters from the North Shore you refer to. That also means that race could have played a factor in Efeso Collins gaining votes in reference to his whakapapa, as well as losing them.

      There would also be a loss/gain factor in the endorsement from Labour (along with any other associations people choose to recognise).

      People also do vote for policy, and perhaps that also accounted for votes.

      To claim that racism doesn't exist would be foolish. To imply that is the sole or main reason for the election results is equally foolish, and wilfully divisive.

      • Sacha 10.1.1
        4 November 2022 at 12:24 pm

        Nobody is claiming it is 'the sole or main reason'.

      • Anker 10.1.2
        4 November 2022 at 12:29 pm

        Actually I do agree with you about that Molly. ie blaming racism for Effeso's loss.

        I tend to think he lost as it was a vote against Labour. Just like Paul Eagle got nowhere in Wellington and Tory W had a significant victory.

        We are well represented by Maori in Parliament and across party (although with the loss of Bennett and Bridges, less so in National).

        Call me old fashion (in a Martin Luther King way) but I vote for the candidate because of their policies and what I deem to be their character. Race simply doesn't come into it (neither does sex and I wouldn't vote for a women if I felt the male candidate was better)

        • Shanreagh 10.1.2.1
          4 November 2022 at 1:01 pm

          I tend to think he lost as it was a vote against Labour. Just like Paul Eagle got nowhere in Wellington and Tory W had a significant victory.

          I doubt you are correct. If you live in Wellington you will know that in some circles Paul was regarded as having lost his steam, his get up and go.

          In his earlier times he was completely and competently 'over' most issues. He has a huge loyal following, me included, because the community I live in has been well represented by him on the Council and in Parliament. I voted for Tory Whanau.

          We have had nice male mayors for several years and none have had the charisma to grab an issue.

          Tory Whanau was like a breath of fresh air, I doubt the Green factor had much to do with it and neither did the so-called vote against Labour. Both overrated.

          How she did appeal was for her enthusiasm, get up and go, difference to a male person and the feeling that we have nothing to lose and much to gain by electing her.

          I for one appreciate that she has appointed another women as her deputy and that everyone is head down and bottom up doing and not spouting a la Trump as in Auckland.

      • Anne 10.1.3
        4 November 2022 at 2:12 pm

        Molly… I was responding to Efeso's own comments on the racist element he encountered.

        That does not mean I think it is the only reason he lost. It is clear his own people in South Auckland did not bother to vote. It was out of apathy not policy matters. Indeed apathy was as prevalent a reason as racism for his loss.

        He had very good positive policies for Auckland. Apathy ensured few people bothered to seek them out. On the other hand, the Brown guy had no policies that I could ascertain… just negativity and a promise to sack all the CEOs and get rid of certain local body entities. Thus far he's reneged on almost all of his promises. REALITY HAS SET IN.

        • Molly 10.1.3.1
          4 November 2022 at 2:31 pm

          IIRC it was Efeso's campaign research results that indicated an issue with racism.

          My comment was in reply to your initial comment, which reiterates the racism theme.

          To what purpose?

          He lost by far more than the 20,000 estimated deficit.

          So, for what good purpose is it to promulgate an unverifiable accusation that amongst those that voted for other candidates there are a cohort of voters who are so racist, their only reason for not voting for Efeso Collins is to indicate their racism?

          What is the intended better outcome here?

    • Anker 10.2
      4 November 2022 at 12:24 pm

      Yes a shame about Effeso Collins. Seemed a really nice guy and did great things for his community during Covid.

      I am all for reducing racism, but CRT imo makes it worse.

      We were the team of 5 million not that long ago. Then something changed.

      I stand by my comments about there being very little racism in the health service.

      Remember in the immediate aftermath of the CHCH atrocity, Drs, nurses rushed to CHCH hospital working double, triple shifts to tend to the wounded. This is just one of many examples I have re the health service not being racist.

      Then Marama Davidson at a memorial service in Auckland stood up and told us how racist NZders were (despite the perp being Australian), Our police quickly arrested the white supremicist in Chch and he was imprisoned for a while.

      And there was a huge outpouring of grief and support for the muselim community (saw Cat Stevens interviewed recently who said when he came here after the attacks, he had never seen anything like the outpouring of geniune support).

      Most NZders find racism repugnant. But when you change the definition of racism to being all white people are racists, then you will get back lash.

      Anyway Anne, interested to hear what you think is a way forward for race relations in our country.

    • Ad 10.3
      4 November 2022 at 12:33 pm

      Efeso is being morally lazy.

      Efeso could have won if:

      • His team had raised about $2m before starting. He was massively outspent. It just takes time, and a dedicated fundraising team who know how to ask, how to bundle, and what level to ask for.
      • Labour had fulsomely backed him with major MP and PM event appearances. They didn't.
      • The right hadn't merged three opposing campaigns into one, five weeks out then one week out from close of polling. They did and it cost.
      • His campaign team had energised a larger ground game outside of the west and south which he knew he was going to get anyway.
      • He had a strong policy message other than "Free public transport"
      • He had got Ardern to lever Goff to unequivocally state Vote Efeso as his successor. OMG they were both Labour and Goff had the diplomatic post to motivate him to do the damn work.
      • He had bested Wayne in the live debates. Too often he didn't through poor pre-coaching.
      • He had worked harder with his media relationships in the year beforehand. Too many news channels preferred Wayne because his attack lines were simpler
      • He had a visible plan for the last 10 days. No evidence he had one.

      Efeso had been leading in the polls for most of the race and it is an indictment on him and his campaign team that they could take a winning campaign and lose inside the last 2 weeks.

      • Anne 10.3.1
        4 November 2022 at 11:15 pm

        Efeso had been leading in the polls for most of the race and it is an indictment on him and his campaign team that they could take a winning campaign and lose inside the last 2 weeks.

        He was leading because there were three candidates on the Right. First Molloy dropped out and then at the last minute Viv Beck, so what had been a three way split went across to Brown. Dirty politicking by Matthew Hooton re- Viv Beck.

        But you know that Ad.

        • Molly 10.3.1.1
          5 November 2022 at 10:06 am

          " First Molloy dropped out and then at the last minute Viv Beck, so what had been a three way split went across to Brown. Dirty politicking by Matthew Hooton re- Viv Beck."

          How is this "dirty politicking"?

          Surely it's just a consolidation of votes.

          • Anne 10.3.1.1.1
            5 November 2022 at 10:50 am

            I was referring to the stories leaked to the media about Viv Beck. It seems she had a financial problem and info. related to it suddenly started swirling around in the media. That was a ploy straight out of the Dirty Politics playbook to force Viv Beck to step down. There may well have been a fiscal issue in her past, but using it to destroy someone for political gain is DP in my view.

            Matthew Hooton is Wayne Brown's "political adviser" and he has a penchant for smearing opponents at every opportunity. He was mentioned in dispatches by Nicky Hager when he wrote his book "Dirty Politics". all those years ago.

            • Molly 10.3.1.1.1.1
              5 November 2022 at 11:03 am

              Thanks Anne.

              That makes sense in terms of Dirty Politics, if the rumours were baseless.

              • Anne …
                5 November 2022 at 5:23 pm

                She apparently owed quite a bit of money but hadn't paid it back. Something along those lines, but there may have been a valid reason for not yet having done so. Whatever, its nobody else's business but hers unless there was criminality involved and we would have heard if there was.

                Viv Beck is a member of the National Party but I will defend anyone who is the victim of back-stabbing of that type regardless of their politics. I've been a victim in the past – although not played out in the public eye – so I know what it feels like.

                • Molly …
                  7 November 2022 at 8:52 am

                  IIRC, The Dirty Politic strategy was more about manufacturing rumour and innuendo, and media using the Whale Oil blog as a verified source.

                  As you say, the unpaid bill may be a legitimate query. However, given the context sherobably should've had a ready robust reply to any queries.

    • Shanreagh 10.4
      4 November 2022 at 12:50 pm

      Contrary to attempts to claim otherwise… NZ is a very racist country.

      I agree except for the 'very'. We seem to be more easily beguiled by the likes of US dis/mis-information amplified by people like

      Plunket

      Counterspin, VFF, Destiny and the usual suspects at the Parliamentary protest.

      Now we are seeing people who say that efforts to stamp out racism is racist? So to teach history through the lens of this happened, it was good and bad….let us look at both sides is now claimed to be CRT and CRT IS BAD apparently.

      How long do we have to re fight these anti racist, anti sexist battles. To those who cannot see these are the same side of the same coin…….to denigrate those who are different, to other …….

      I fought these as a person 50 years ago. Many of us did. Please view life through a NZ centric lens. The US and it theories has little to teach us except that racism and sexism still exist and they are still a problem in most walks of life. We still need to constantly examine our systems to make sure that systemic racism and sexism is not hiding out there.

      • Anne 10.4.1
        4 November 2022 at 1:40 pm

        "agree except for the 'very'."

        Yes. That was going a bit over the top.

      • Sacha 10.4.2
        4 November 2022 at 1:45 pm

        The righties seem to have imported the 'CRT' buzzphrase from the US in the last few months, partly as VFF and fellow travellers try to pivot from vaccines to other 'concerns' they can fundraise on the backs of.

      • Molly 10.4.3
        4 November 2022 at 2:41 pm

        "Now we are seeing people who say that efforts to stamp out racism is racist? So to teach history through the lens of this happened, it was good and bad….let us look at both sides is now claimed to be CRT and CRT IS BAD apparently."

        We are adopting a philosophy (and policies) that do seem to originate from Critical Race Theory from the States, so Anker is not off beat to refer to it as such, despite the desire of many NZers to think that we have addressed the issue entirely by ourselves. Our relationship with Te Tiriti and tangata whenua may be unique, but much of the dialogue is very similar to that from the States. Much of the public conversation is very similar along with the perspectives and justifications.

        I think the intention of CRT is good. I also believe the use of CRT, and implementation of it is divisive and not fit for purpose. So, yes, if used without further regard for other aspects – it can be bad.

    • Corey Humm 10.5
      4 November 2022 at 2:24 pm

      Collins lost because he was unable to get voters to turn out. Pure and simple. He was also a terrible public speaker who campaigned against gay marriage and was a weed prohibitionist up against a pro gay marriage pro weed candidate. Collins was totally unappealing to young people so they stayed home.

      He was also left wing candidate in a city that had already had 12 consecutive years of center left mayors.

      Racism exists in NZ absolutely, it exists everywhere, but and I come from a mixed race family, NZ is not a racist country.

      If NZ is a "very racist country" then why are hundreds of cultures living harmoniously in cities and towns across NZ?

      Honestly I only ever hear how horribly racist NZ is from people born here, people who have immigrated here are the most patriotic and passionately pro NZ people you'll ever meet because they truly appreciate and love this country.

      And hypothetically, if NZ was a racist place , not a place where a majority of citizens believed in giving everyone a fair go and standing up for human rights abuses even when our progressive govt stays silent in exchange for milk product access, labour would be polling at sub 5% for it's reforms to health at water infrastructure.

      Collins losing an election does not make NZ an intolerant nation. It does not say anything about NZ.

      The left really ought to stop crapping over voters and calling the country irredeemable and focus on how to win voters over and better yet, how to get voters to turn out, that's the real issue here not some guy who has been on the wrong side of history multiple times losing a mayoralty election.

    • Drowsy M. Kram 10.6
      4 November 2022 at 2:42 pm

      NZ is a very racist country.

      Which can be difficult to ‘hear’, let alone accept. NZ is not alone in this, of course.

      https://youtu.be/g9n_UPyVR5s

      Racism starts small. Sometimes it lives in everyday actions and comments that we laugh off, nod in agreement to, excuse, and therefore accept. But we don’t have to. We can stop casual racism from growing into something more extreme. We can give it no encouragement. No respect. No place. No power. We can give it nothing. http://www.givenothing.co.nz

      • Stuart Munro 10.6.1
        4 November 2022 at 5:13 pm

        It's a popular story – but the largest race crimes in NZ, a series of land rorts, were not really race driven, but profit driven. Those responsible would have cheerfully dispossessed persons of any creed or colour.

        Racism is not the cause of all evils, and hypersensitivity to it therefore, is less constructive than it may at first sight appear.

        David Stove has a pretty good analysis of the issue: Racial and Other Antagonisms : David Stove : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

        • Anker 10.6.1.1
          4 November 2022 at 9:25 pm

          Absolutely agree Stuart Munro

        • Molly 10.6.1.2
          5 November 2022 at 9:53 am

          Agree.

        • Drowsy M. Kram 10.6.1.3
          5 November 2022 at 2:03 pm

          Racism is not the cause of all evils,

          Absolutely – not all evils.

          … and hypersensitivity to it therefore, is less constructive than it may at first sight appear.

          Constructive or not, insensitivity/sensitivity/hypersensitivity to racism is informed by experience, or lack thereof.

          Thanks for the link to Stove’s analysis – he was a man of his time (1927 – 1994).

          Why is "racism" an utterly foolish word? For the same reason that "eastism" would be, if we had such a word for the belief that the sun rises in the east. There is no need for a word, and therefore no usefulness in a word, for a belief which everyone knows is true. Least of all is there need for a word which ends in "ism," since that has precisely the effect of suggesting that not everyone shares the belief in question.

          If I'm understanding Stove correctly, racism is "an utterly foolish word" because racism (like ageism and sexism) is pervasive – a shared belief; a truth.

          Ao Mai te Rā | The Anti-Racism Kaupapa
          Combatting racism in the health and disability system
          Racism is increasingly recognised as a key determinant of health that results in avoidable and unfair disparities in health outcomes across racial or ethnic groupings. Within Aotearoa New Zealand, the presence of racism in the health and disability system and its impact on health outcomes has been well evidenced and researched.

          Which would come as no surprise to Stove. Still, imho it's a worthwhile endeavour to strive for the best possible outcomes for all Kiwis. Attempting to address known factors that contribute to poor outcomes may be helpful.

          As far as I know any racism (might Stove prefer 'race-based bias'?) directed at me has always been to my advantage – just 'lucky' I guess, and my luck need only hold for another 10 – 15 years at best (3 – 8 years if I was Māori).

          A Malaysian is almost certain to be inferior both in height and weight to a Maori.

          Penetrating analysis indeed.

          • Stuart Munro 10.6.1.3.1
            5 November 2022 at 6:16 pm

            He's a clever fellow, Stove, but his arguments are wont to turn in the hand were one to try to extend them too far. Nevertheless, his points about the ubiquity, and the rationality, of racial antagonism are worth remembering.

            For my own part I've seen a little of both kinds – Saudi bureaucracy for example, might well have been created as a satire of the British civil service, and would have provided an abundance of material for Gilbert and Sullivan. The antagonism that has evolved between native and L2 English teachers is more fraught.

            One need not look too far in contemporary NZ to find examples of discrimination intended to 'balance the scales', which rarely targets that cohort of malefactors that made off with the bulk of Maori land.

            I acknowledge the necessity of combating racial disparities in health and (I presume) legal services however.

      • Shanreagh 10.6.2
        4 November 2022 at 10:18 pm

        Yes that is the fundamental. We give nothing to racism.

        Why do we need imported not fit for purpose ideas such as CRT when our solutions should be NZ driven and NZ centric.

        We have imported all sorts of unfit 'things' from abroad.

        From the discussions on TS recently I find it disturbing that people can purportedly recognise sexism, anti women sentiments…at least I thought that was in large part the concern at the trans agenda. My concern was that it seemed to be posited as a for/against argument that by condemning discrimination against trans it meant that women as a biological category were squeezed out to the sidelines. With the result that saying yes to sexism seemed almost to be OK if you supported the trans agenda.

        My concern is heightened in that some of those who I had looked up to as having their fingers on the pulse of this women centric debate on the trans issue seem to feel that it is not an issue to hold almost anti Maori views.

        In my years of activism on the 'isms' debate it did not matter where the discrimination was coming from it was to be condemned. We certainly tried not to indulge in it ourselves.

        Now I am wondering with my view that sexism and racism are both bad, are both to be watched and stamped out, is naive and old fashioned and that it is Ok to be anti sexism but not anti racism.

        I am wondering now if I have got caught in some fundy deep state stuff that is anti trans but not pro women and definitely not pro other races.

        So:

        Give nothing to sexism

        Give nothing to racism.

        Leave the CRT theory over in the US where it belongs. Their things are not our things. We work on solutions in our way. some of the solutions have involved tweaks to our syllabuses and education about Treaty issues. These are home grown ways to address our ism issues.

    • Jester 10.7
      4 November 2022 at 5:18 pm

      What rubbish. Wayne Brown probably lost at least 20,000 votes from the Manukau area because he's white. People voted for change and against Efesso's policies. They didn't want a left leaning mayor who would have been a yes man to the government as Auckland had previously had Phil Goff and Len Brown who were left leaning.

  11. Reality 11
    4 November 2022 at 11:22 am

    Anne, I agree there are too many intolerant, angry people in NZ, often in the older age bracket.

    They can't cope for example with the frequency of "Aotearoa" being used now. I have said to some there are Great Britain, British Isles, United Kingdom for the one region so Aotearoa and New Zealand are surely not so out of place. I have also said what thoroughly boring names North Island and South Island are, when the Māori names are so poetic in comparison. Younger ones are more relaxed about this and I have noticed many younger ones sing the National anthem Māori words at big sports events.

    • Gosman 11.1
      4 November 2022 at 11:35 am

      I'd agree with you on the North Island and South Island names being boring and the Te Reo alternatives are much better in that case however New Zealand is pretty cool as a name and it is relevant whereas Aotearoa is both manufactured and less interesting. New Zealand is new in terms of human and geological history and it is most definately a sea land as the land mass is surrounded and protected by sea. The Z makes the name stand out and you get to pretend we have some zeal which is cool word meaning "great energy or enthusiasm in pursuit of a cause or an objective". Aotearoa just means a land with a long white cloud which is what ANY land mass of any size looks like when you approach it from the sea. Big deal.

      • roy cartland 11.1.1
        4 November 2022 at 11:44 am

        I like that NZ has the "Z" (as per Bill Manhire's poem) and Aotearoa is at the start or the alphabet (before Aussie!).

        That's I like the idea of having both. Anyway, manufactured can't be worse than rehashed.

      • Sacha 11.1.2
        4 November 2022 at 12:26 pm

        New Zealand is pretty cool as a name and it is relevant whereas Aotearoa is both manufactured and less interesting.

        Relevant? It is based on a Dutch province. Aotearoa is in the language unique to this country.

      • Drowsy M. Kram 11.1.3
        4 November 2022 at 12:38 pm

        Aotearoa just means a land with a long white cloud…

        And 'New Zealand' just 'means' 'Nova Zeelandia'.

        Hendrik Brouwer proved that the South American land was a small island in 1643, and Dutch cartographers subsequently renamed Tasman's discovery Nova Zeelandia from Latin, after the Dutch province of Zeeland. This name was later anglicised to New Zealand.

        What's in a name? I like ‘Aotearoa New Zealand’. If it was only about what names mean (as opposed to the significance of names) then I'd agree with you.

        NZ nearly (43%) had a new flag (was that a good idea?) – why not a new name?

      • Robert Guyton 11.1.4
        4 November 2022 at 2:36 pm

        "The name Australia (pronounced /əˈstreɪliə/ in Australian English) is derived from the Latin australis, meaning "southern", and specifically from the hypothetical Terra Australis postulated in pre-modern geography."

        Big deal. Shoulda called it New Liverpool or something equally relevant.

      • Muttonbird 11.1.5
        4 November 2022 at 5:33 pm

        The name "New Zealand" is certainly manufactured, and certainly manufactured very poorly.

    • Anne 11.2
      4 November 2022 at 11:49 am

      I have also said what thoroughly boring names North Island and South Island are, when the Māori names are so poetic in comparison.

      You should see the looks I get when I point out to people 'what a lovely sounding language Maori is'. Aotearoa is a beautiful name. "Aotearoa New Zealand" is a title all of us should be proud of. So what is wrong with the jerks?

      Oh of course. Racism.

      • Molly 11.2.1
        4 November 2022 at 12:27 pm

        ” So what is wrong with the jerks?

        Oh of course. Racism.”

        You may be "bored" with it, but others may have close associations with the name that represented the country of their ancestors and themselves. Families have memories of men they lost while fighting for New Zealand, and for many of them the name has a rhythm and romance of its own. Māori and non-Māori alike.

        Aotearoa is not the only name given by Māori to our country, and it is not accepted without contention amongst different iwi. So, not exactly the elegant solution you assume.

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aotearoa

        We must be able to acknowledge all of the past, and recognise that blundering into what is considered reparative may hold pitfalls of its own.

        • Anne 11.2.1.1
          4 November 2022 at 1:53 pm

          I prefer to comment with brevity most of the time, but it comes with the risk of being misinterpreted. However, I thought my comment:

          "Aotearoa New Zealand" is a title all of us should be proud of."

          would have been sufficient to explain my position.

          Of course I do not wish to see New Zealand dropped for the reasons you have given.

          • Molly 11.2.1.1.1
            4 November 2022 at 2:34 pm

            "Of course I do not wish to see New Zealand dropped for the reasons you have given."

            All good, Anne.

            Aotearoa as a precursor(?) remains contentious though. It is not the only candidate.

        • joe90 11.2.1.2
          4 November 2022 at 2:48 pm

          Families have memories of men they lost while fighting for New Zealand, and for many of them the name has a rhythm and romance of its own. Māori and non-Māori alike.

          Families have memories of men they lost while fighting for New Zealand murderous, kleptocratic imperialism in the name of an inbred aristocracy with a penchant for subjugating people and appropriating their property and for many of them the name has a rhythm and romance of its own is a reminder of the arrogance of their colonisers.

          fify

          • Molly 11.2.1.2.1
            4 November 2022 at 2:54 pm

            No, Joe, you fixed it for you.

            Rest easy.

          • tinderdry6 11.2.1.2.2
            4 November 2022 at 7:36 pm

            My relatives who died in the second world war did so fighting against i) a fascist racist regime that just happened to be trying to subjogate an entire continent, and ii) a second regime who happily treated their 'subjects' in the most barberous and inhumane manner imaginable. I thank God for those brave men and women.

    • aj 11.3
      4 November 2022 at 1:42 pm

      Te Wai Pounamu is a beautiful name.

  12. adam 12
    4 November 2022 at 11:47 am

    So jingoism is at an all time high in my life time.

    YA, ya, China bad

    YA, ya, Russia bad

    Now it's those perky North Koreans who keep amping it up

    Funny thing about us humans, when one side beats the drums of war. Others join in, and play that silly game as well.

    Stop the blame game, time to calm down.

    • Anne 12.1
      4 November 2022 at 11:53 am

      Agree adam. When you think about it, they are all like a bunch of squabbly school children who want to be top dog.

      However a desperate despot in Russia is another matter…..

    • bwaghorn 12.2
      4 November 2022 at 12:46 pm

      What!!!

      Russia invaded thier naighbours,

      Tiny rocket man is shooting rockets over north Korean boundary,

      If I was head patrician neither of those men would be leaders anymore,

    • millsy 12.3
      4 November 2022 at 1:42 pm

      I really cannot say I support either the Russia/China axis or the NATO axis, because when you dig down into it, it is free market capitalism (US/UK/EU) against 'traditional family values" (Russia/China, etc). Both of which I find repugnant.

  14. DOUG STUART 14
    4 November 2022 at 2:59 pm

    Shame on Efesto Collins playing the race card for his loss, the fact is it was a very low turn out in South Auckland his own people did not get out to vote for him.

    • Drowsy M. Kram 14.1
      4 November 2022 at 3:08 pm

      It's not all about "the race card" – and it's not all about "his own people" either wink

      • DOUG STUART 14.1.1
        4 November 2022 at 3:47 pm

        He said it was because he is brown he lost, no poor turn out by Labour supporters in South Auckland !!!

        • Jester 14.1.1.1
          4 November 2022 at 5:24 pm

          He lost because over 50,000 more people voted for Wayne Brown. Playing the race card really makes Efesso sound like a sore loser.

          Did Paul Eagle lose because of racism?

          • Anne 14.1.1.1.1
            4 November 2022 at 6:02 pm

            When you can't even spell his name correctly you can't expect most people here to take you seriously.

          • bwaghorn 14.1.1.1.2
            4 November 2022 at 6:08 pm

            Do ypu think brown was called a white cunt at any of his meetings??

            • Robert Guyton 14.1.1.1.2.1
              4 November 2022 at 6:12 pm

              You mean, out loud?

            • Jester 14.1.1.1.2.2
              4 November 2022 at 11:38 pm

              I'd be surprised if he wasn't. But he's not blaming that on missing out on 20,000 votes from Manukau.

              Anne won't take you seriously as you can't even spell "you" correctly.

    • AB 14.2
      4 November 2022 at 3:54 pm

      Yep – a silly move. I voted for Collins because he's not a self-aggrandising sh*t-head who'll make every significant problem we face worse while shouting obsessively about the imaginary grievances floating around in his own brain. Others voted against him for the same reason – mostly.

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