Open mike 06/03/2022

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, March 6th, 2022 - 233 comments
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Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

233 comments on “Open mike 06/03/2022 ”

  1. Robert Guyton 1

    The Hari Krishna movement has not done well from their involvement with the Freedumb Camp. Here, one of those who didn't attend, seeks to explain that it was a break-away, rabbit-holed faction wot dun it.

    [deleted]

    https://www.facebook.com/hanuman.dasaacbsp

    • Muttonbird 1.1

      Antifa operatives, obvs…

    • Jenny how to get there 1.2

      From a leading comment on the Hanuman Dasa facebook page.

      “alt right meets krishna…"

      “….. that f**king brainless traitorous slut who is masquerading as a PM.”

      — spokesperson, P. das, videographer and cook at the Hare Krishna Parliament camp 2022.

      (“Our food is cooked with love and devotion.”)

      The main body of the scribed sludge is too graphic to share here, but it should be noted he is not alone in this style of thuggish, childish response…..

      ….Someone likened it to selling their sacred cow for the promise of some magic beans from a guy wearing a “hang them high” t-shirt.

      “Those emails are the literary equivalent of flinging poop."

      “A few years ago, this person was, shall we say in a nice way, invited to leave the association of the Auckland Hare Krishna community. Correspondence between him and the HK management, while not as vile, had traces of the same tone.

      ….Based on this and the language emanating from him, you can tell whether he has the right to call himself a Hare Krishna. So while many work to establish the bonafides of this religion, people like this do the Hare Krishna Society the greatest disservice. As for the Hare Krishnas at the Wellington protest, they acted independently and against the written request of the Society's leaders.

      RE: “Anti-Mandate” Protests in New Zealand
      The International Society for Krishna Consciousness (ISKCON), commonly known as the Hare Krishna Movement, has been made aware of a small group and individuals claiming to represent ISKCON while attending various “Anti-Mandate” protest sites in New Zealand.
      For the avoidance of any doubt, no persons or groups have been authorised to represent any ISKCON body, affiliate, or its wider community at any protest anywhere in New Zealand.
      Any individuals taking part in such activities do so in their personal capacity and risk exclusively.
      Authorised by:
      Ramai Swami
      Governing Body Commissioner for Australasia
      Devamrita Swami
      Governing Body Commissioner for Australasia
      Kalasamvara Das
      President ISKCON Auckland

    • mauī 1.3

      "One of the loudest tents is filled with Hare Krishnas, dancing, and singing. Yoga and meditation is also on offer. At dinnertime the largest line is for Hare Krishna food – curries and samosas."

      Yep, completely toxic to anyone with a semblance of green values. You can see the aggression and the far right oozing from that particular tent.

      https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/127785978/watch-a-walk-through-the-parliamentary-occupation-site

  2. Jenny how to get there 2

    Israeli Prime Minister Naftali Bennett meets with Russian President Vladimir Putin in Moscow

    Israel and Russia. Partners in crime in Syria.

    Israel is one of the few countries that has good working relations with both sides. The country has delivered humanitarian aid to Ukraine, but also maintains ties with Moscow to make sure that Israeli and Russian warplanes do not come into conflict in neighboring Syria.

    – Report from AP

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/world/europe/300533171/ukraine-live-russias-putin-warns-against-creation-of-nofly-zone-after-evacuation-stopped

    • Dennis Frank 2.1

      Israel on the fence: https://edition.cnn.com/2022/03/05/opinions/israel-russia-ukraine-balancing-act-miller/index.html

      Prime Minister Naftali Bennett, reportedly seeking to play a mediating role in the crisis, has thus far avoided using the words "Putin," "Russia" and "condemn" in the same sentence.

      On Thursday, the Ukrainian President, himself Jewish, urged Israel to take a stronger moral stand and offered some choice words for Bennett: "I don't feel that he is wrapped in the flag of Ukraine."

      Obviously not. Will be interesting to see what comes out of Bennett's meeting with Putin. Israel pursuing a policy non-aligned with the USA is unusual.

    • Ad 2.2

      It's not hard to figure the logic of Israel in this.

      Russian airforce controls the airspace of Syria, and has several hundred troops and mercenaries in country propping up Syria's ruler. So day to day it would be wise to keep them sweet.

      Israel also has an increasingly strong relationship with Saudi Arabia and many of the Gulf States. They in turn have strong side agreements with Russia to keep the oil and gas price propped up by not increasing production. That's keeping your mates-who-were-your-enemies sweet.

      Then there's oil and gas directly. They want greater oil dependence and want to see the price of oil high so they can keep drilling up in the Golan Heights. And of course it's got massive offshore gas reserves so it has no motivation to keep the price of gas down, and will of course be keen on European customers.

      Then there's the influence of the Russian Orthodox Church inside Old Jerusalem. Not to be mocked that one.

      Plenty to play for besides principle.

  3. Robert Guyton 3

    Sunday morning poem – David Slack.

    "The protestors have got to Wellington!
    They are at the home of Democracy and Mr Speaker Trevor.

    They are here to tell the government they are angry at them for being monsters.
    They want the government to come out and apologise for being monsters and possibly get hanged.
    Also some of the yoga mums want to show them how to do a better Tree Pose.
    But mostly they want the apology and the hangings.

    Jacinda you monster come out and talk to us,
    say the placards.
    But they don’t say,
    so we can yell at you and be completely illogical
    about the mandates and vaccines that have protected everybody.

    Are you going to go out there? the reporters ask Jacinda.
    Can’t see the point tbh, says Jacinda. "

    See more…

    https://subslack.substack.com/p/a-month-of-protesting

    • PsyclingLeft.Always 3.1

      Hi, yea I like David Slack…quite the pointed dry wit.

      Jacinda the monster. Just ….head shaking stuff.

  4. PsyclingLeft.Always 4

    "Paradoxically Omicron is a much bigger threat to New Zealand than any other previous variant. We keep on hearing it's mild, but what we should be saying is it's less severe if you're vaccinated," Prof Jackson said.

    "We need to slow this down because I've been talking with Auckland GPs and they're overwhelmed with patients. If you've got symptoms go get tested, if you're positive report it, and if you're positive isolate.

    "Wear your mask, keep away from big crowds if you can – we really need to slow this down."

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/462795/we-need-to-slow-this-down-case-drop-too-soon-to-celebrate-epidemiologist-says

    Take this SERIOUSLY.! And wear a mask !
    Our NZ Health system runs a grave risk of being overwhelmed by covid mis/disinformation spreaders.

  5. Psycho Milt 5

    Thank you to Sanctuary for this tip: Ukraine's national bank is taking donations for both humanitarian aid and for its armed forces. This morning I made a donation directly to the UAF – it could use all the crowd-funding it can get right now.

    You can donate here: National Bank of Ukraine.

  6. Andrew Miller 6

    A bit of reading for all the Putin apologists and so called ‘Realists’.

    Trigger Warning: Contains views of actual Eastern Europeans.

    ‘Westsplaining’ is a great term for the likes of Mearshiemer, Chomsky er al.

    https://newrepublic.com/article/165603/carlson-russia-ukraine-imperialism-nato

    • Ad 6.1

      Yes it's a useful corrective.

      The conclusion points dimly to the really useful stuff, ie what happens when the war concludes:

      "But any analysis of the current conflict needs to get past a framework that only gives voice and agency to the West and to Russia and start listening to Eastern Europeans, especially since it is Eastern Europe that will be dealing with the repercussions of the current war for years to come."

      Already eastern European countries are dealing with refugee immigrants on a scale dwarfing that which Italy, Hungary, and Poland have so bitterly opposed after the Syrian war.

      One might also imagine the most massive UNDP and UN food programme efforts to rebuild what the country becomes.

      Then of course: whether Ukraine is divided up and some parts prefer the EU and others stay within the Russian orbit.

      Then how long it will take for wheat and coal and fertiliser and steel production to stabilise again, and who exactly controls it.

      The quicker Russia and Ukraine get to the question: what do you really want, the better.

      • Dennis Frank 6.1.1

        Well it does point to the possibility of a novel resolution: Eastern European nations form a united front. They could do so regardless of whether or not they are also members of NATO, depending how the constituent principles are delineated.

        For instance, if the bulwark state concept invoked by Putin were to be the basis, solidarity in response to a threat to one member could be triggered in international law. Membership of NATO could be renegotiated onto a suitable conditional basis to accomodate the new multinational structure.

        As long as it removes Putin's sense of threat & grievance it could work as a solution. Weakness of medial states pressured from both east & west would cease to be such a problem.

        • Andrew Miller 6.1.1.1

          And if the ‘threat and grievance’ is a smoke screen for simply wanting these nations under Russia’s thumb?

          There’s every reason to believe Putin fears these countries being open and democratic far more than he ‘fears’ NATO.
          What actual threat does NATO provide to Russia if Russia isn’t interested in controlling its neighbours? If you listen to the Westsplainers they struggle to come up with much. Mearshiemer will start talking about Napoleon and Hitler as if it’s reasonable to see NATO in such terms

          The parts of Eastern Europe that have been allowed to make a choice have all chosen to effectively ‘look West’ and given the nature of Putin’s Russia why are we surprised.
          The idea which is often implied that this wouldn’t have happened we’re in not for US influence seems to be pure ‘Westsplaining’ and funnily enough almost identical to Putin’s view.
          The ethnic essentialism that assumes Russian speakers want to be part of Russia‘S orbit comes from the same place.
          I’m certain many do, but if there’s a bunch of thuggish Putin backed militias how can anyone seriously suggest people are making a free choice.
          The other implication that it’s the equivalent of Western/US involvement making others ‘look West’ is really nothing more than a grotesque kind of moral relativism. The EU wasn’t threatening invasion if Poland or the Baltic states said, no thanks we don’t want to join.

          • Dennis Frank 6.1.1.1.1

            Re Putin's motives, time will tell. Geopolitical conflict resolution via peace treaty is traditional, and I'd be surprised if the UN sec gen didn't want to be involved in that. I'd expect him to require Putin to lay his cards on the table.

            Endless recycling of past stances & grievances is a fool's game & diplomacy works best via creativity & win/win outcomes. Let's hope for that.

      • Sanctuary 6.1.2

        Chancellor Scholz announced in a speech on 27th February 2022 Germany's re-armament. But more, he announced that pride in German militarism is again to be permitted. The language is startling. To talk of the need to regain the social cachet and status of the military that it had "prior to 1945" and make fashionable again the ideas of duty, sacifice and fatherland would have been impossible to even consider let alonwe utter three weeks ago .

        It is covered here:

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDUElJY4xNQ

        • Ad 6.1.2.1

          It was a huge policy turnaround, but it will take more than one speech.

          • Sanctuary 6.1.2.1.1

            True. But I was struck by the unequivocal "prior to 1945" comment. Usually German politicians will first give a long winded acknowledgment of the Nazi era and blind alley of German militarism and nationalism before talking about weapons. Not this time.

      • RedLogix 6.1.3

        I am well aware there is not a lot of historic moral high ground for anyone to posture from; but Putin has started a war of aggression and threatened nuclear first strike. That is completely over the line and there is no coming back from this.

        War is hell. It is also the failure of politics and dialog; which means that once the bullets and bombs start flying you pick a side and stop the second guessing.

        The only discussion that matters now is how to defeat the Putin.

        • Hongi Ika 6.1.3.1

          Threatening a Nuclear Strike without justification is obviously a chargeable offence, Putler id thumbing his nose at all of us imho.

          • RedLogix 6.1.3.1.1

            My apologies for a snarky comment I replied to you a few days ago. On reflection its apparent I misread what you were saying badly.

  7. Putin is pissed off with the sanctions reckons "it's akin to declaring war ?", I am confused what the fuck is he doing in the Ukraine ? Is it just a Lover's Quarrel between two former partners. The little prick is mad IMHO ?

    • Psycho Milt 7.1

      Waging "aggressive war" ie invading other countries is a war crime, so the countries that do it have to come up with various weasel words to pretend that's not what they're doing. For the invasion of Iraq, US/UK misrepresented UN resolutions to pretend the invasion was just enforcement of those resolutions. For the invasion of Ukraine, Putin is calling it a "military operation" to "neutralise a fascist threat" for the same reason – if he admits it's a war, he's on the hook for a serious war crime.

      • mikesh 7.1.1

        Interesting that Nanaia Mahuta, on Q+A, referred to the invasion as "unprovoked". Was that a comment made without thinking, or was it deliberate. I would have considered Ukraine's bombing of the Dombass region provocation, not to mention the country's obvious desire to join NATO.

        • Psycho Milt 7.1.1.1

          Those could be regarded as "provocation" if we were to believe Ukraine isn't a sovereign country same as we are. But it is one.

  8. AB 8

    The obscene farce of Luxon's 'state of the nation' speech begins. As such speeches are normally given by sitting heads of government, there is clearly an intention to create the impression that it is only some weird and temporary aberration that has resulted in him not being PM – National Party governments are 'natural' and anything else is contrary to Nature and the proper order of things.

    • You_Fool 8.1

      Pretty sure john key did at least 1 of these if not 2 as leader of the opposition… so is also national just trying to point out the similarities between Luxton and key

    • Hongi Ika 8.2

      Chrome Dome is practising for when he takes power at the 2023 Election.

      His handlers Crosby Textor have obviously recommended this course of action.

    • Incognito 8.3

      Luxon may want to step onto the podium while the speaker system blasts Fly Away by Lenny Kravitz. At least they could put on a bit of a show for the media to report on.

  9. Patricia Bremner 9

    I think there is a growing awareness in the money realm that their 'wolf of wall street days are done.'

    They are being asked to consider the impact of their actions on climate and wellbeing… so the reaction is to get others to stir the pot. imo

    Business as a servant not a master of people is repellant to some wealthy, as profits may be spread rather than funneled to the 1%.

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]

    • Patricia Bremner 9.1

      That comment followed on from why some would liaise with the protestors, and linked to "The party of their dreams" It was a comment about "follow the money" to find why people would want to be talking to the protestors. My bad for not linking directly by quoting.

  10. Ffloyd 10

    Why are we not showing more support for the Ukrainian invasion? Has the Russian Ambassador been sent home yet? I am feeling a bit ashamed of our ,mostly, silence. And how come it is being said that Putin is not mentally deranged. Just because apparently he is being true to himself and his frightening thoughts and acting on them it shows he is thinking coherently, therefore not certifiably insane. I beg to differ. Count the crosses of the innocent. Including his own Russian citizens. Says it all…… Waiting to hear louder noise from NZ. New password.FCKPTN.

    • Hongi Ika 10.1

      NZ Press do not want to upset Russia or Putin, just like nothing is said about Isreal & the USA in Palestine ?

    • mikesh 10.2

      Did we regard Dubya as insane when he invaded Iraq?

      • McFlock 10.2.1

        Yeah, kinda.

        And that was without firing artillery around nuclear power plants or threatening to use nukes on any nation that interferes.

      • felix 10.2.2

        That was the consensus on the left, yep. Insane, foolish, or evil.

  11. PsyclingLeft.Always 11

    The late Novaya Gazeta journalist Anna Politkovskaya, who had negotiated during the 2002 Moscow siege, was twice prevented by the authorities from boarding a flight. When she eventually succeeded, she fell into a coma after being poisoned aboard an aeroplane bound to Rostov-on-Don.[100][227]

    According to the report by the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE), several correspondents were detained or otherwise harassed after arriving in Beslan (including Russians Anna Gorbatova and Oksana Semyonova from Novye Izvestia, Madina Shavlokhova from Moskovskij Komsomolets, Elena Milashina from Novaya Gazeta, and Simon Ostrovskiy from The Moscow Times).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beslan_school_siege#Incidents_involving_Russian_and_foreign_journalists

    For quite the time (decades) I have thought Putin to be a psychopath. Nothing has changed that. And…I have so much Respect for those Russian Reporters/Journalists. Literally putting their lives on the line.

  12. Sanctuary 12

    Watching what is happening in the Ukraine it seems to me we may be witnessing the end of the era of the tank as Queen of the battlefield. The time of the tank will be booked ended as lasting from the Battle of the Somme in 1916 to the Ukraine war of 2022. The Ukraine is supposedly perfect tank country. Flat, open steppe ideal for tank warfare. But the growth of urbanisation means nowhere is now without "hedgehogs" of housing and factories where determined tank hunting infantry equipped with a plethora of modern anti-armour weapons can lurk. This seems to have turned armoured vehicles into death traps – anything less than a MBT (Main Battle Tank) is hopelessly vulnerable to everything from the humble RPG to advanced weapons like NLAW and the Javelin ATGM. And even heavily armoured tanks are pretty useless – these weapons are not just causing mobility kills or repairable damage. The number of turret detachments – indicating violent internal detonations – on T-72, T-80 and T-90 tanks seen in imagery is considerable. Huge numbers of burnt out BMD, BMP and BTR series vehicles litter every combat zone.

    This is probably why the Russians are resorting the massive artillery bombardments. I forget who said it (Basil Liddell Hart?) but infantry were memorably once described as being like"fleas that inhabit the folds of the earth" difficult to sweep away if determined. Russian armoured troops now don't see a hamlet or a village or a small rural factory. They see havens for partisan militias and regular infantry, rising up from the crinkles and folds of the earth to use incredibly lethal individual and crew served antti-armour weapons to kill them. In particular, the "nation in arms" that is the Ukraine where farmers ambush APCs, kill the hapless crews and gleefully tow away their prize with a tractor in a tik tok video means for a frightened and confused 19 year old conscript from Novomoskovsk everyone is a potential franc-tireur and every habitation a source of deadly meance. So they'll shell the hell out of anything the slightest suspicious, because human flesh and blood is as vulnerable to the Junger's storm of steel now as it was in 1914-18 and if caught in the open your Ukranian armed with an NLAW will be shredded by artillery as surely as anyone was on the Western Front.The era of the tank may be ending, even as for now artillery remains as Stalin put it "the God of war". But even the self-propelled artillery is coming under threat if the video feeds from the Ukraine's Turkish supplied Baykar Bayraktar TB2 drones (as well as the lessons of the almost completely ignored (in the west) 2020 Nagorno-Karabakh war) is any guide.

    It's all got me thinking. The history of war since 1914 is really the history of the rise of the increasingly autonomous robot. Guns were replaced by aircraft and torpedoes and then missiles – all the time everything getting more accurate and more independent of human supervision. To my mind that trend is reaching a point where the next revolution in warfare is about to happen. The revolution and subsequent evolutions in tactics ignited by Word War One is drawing to an end. The great new arrival has been coming for a while now. Welcome everyone to the dawn of the age of the autonomous, flying, robot warrior. We all thought robot soldiers would look like the terminator. In fact, they'll look like quad copters and I can see a time in our lifetime when swarms of thousands of kamikaze drones with, say, 1-2kg fragmentation warheads will be pre-programmed to conduct indiscriminate killing of anything that fits a human profile in a pre-determined geographic area, while above them bigger drones with more sophisiticated AI will completely independently scan the same area looking for armoured targets they will destroy with missiles. It’s already happened once – in Libya in 2020 – where drones were pre-programmed to attack a vehicle convoy and then no further human intervention was required until the slaughter was over.

    Asimov's Three Laws of Robotics have been quietly, firmly and violently drowned in the bath, without much debate from anyone really.

    • Blazer 12.1

      You may want to check out the role Guderians Panzer divisions played in WW2.

    • Psycho Milt 12.2

      "Russian armoured troops now don't see a hamlet or a village or a small rural factory. They see havens for partisan militias and regular infantry, rising up from the crinkles and folds of the earth to use incredibly lethal individual and crew served antti-armour weapons to kill them."

      Familiar territory. And as Germans found out in WW2 and Americans in Vietnam, the locals may not have murderous intent at the start, but they sure do after you destroy their villages and kill their pals as a force protection measure. Good luck to any Russian soldiers who have to occupy territory that's been captured this way.

    • Treetop 12.3

      When I heard that Nato would assist Ukraine with military hard ware I thought that in the hands of the Russian army that this would be the spoils of war.

    • RedLogix 12.4

      I have been idly thinking along similar lines Sanctuary. Drone swarms were fully described in a Vernor Vinge novel The Peace War published in 1984. He taught mathematics and computer science at San Diego Uni and his writing was very much informed by this.

      War drives innovation rapidly, and if nothing else Boston Dynamics will contemplating field testing their robot dogs.

      • joe90 12.4.1

        Almost there.

        Researchers, roboticists, and technologists deployed swarms of autonomous air and ground vehicles to test mission capabilities in the final field experiment (FX-6) of DARPA’s OFFensive Swarm-Enabled Tactics (OFFSET) program at the Cassidy Combined Arms Collective Training Facility (CACTF) in Fort Campbell, Tennessee. Since the program kicked off in 2017, OFFSET has held six field experiments with objectives of increasing complexity and difficulty.

        https://www.darpa.mil/news-events/2021-12-09

        • RedLogix 12.4.1.1

          If we thought nuclear weapons terrible, at least they had a certain passive MAD quality to them which has stayed everyone's hand to date. Even as we type everyone is terrified of escalating Europe to a full confrontation with Russia.

          But these autonomous killing machines would be another nightmare again. I recall reading as a young teenager a short sci-fi story of a man trapped on a planet being relentlessly pursued at a slow pace by a machine. It had already killed two of his companions. He could outpace it during the day, but every time he stopped to eat or sleep the machine would close in. After a number of futile attempts over many months to defeat it, he was eventually reduced to exhaustion and despair – and the machine finally reached him.

          The twist at the end of the story was when the robot finally caught him, it lifted him from the ground for a few moments, then put him down, turned and trundled away now inexplicably unconcerned with him. And then from behind he saw the machine's nameplate which included the numbers 60 – 140. It was then he realised that the months of constant chase and almost starvation had reduced his weight to below the minimum this robot had been programmed to kill.

          I have long forgotten who the author was, but it was the kind of thing Ray Bradbury might have written.

          • felix 12.4.1.1.1

            There was a black mirror episode centred around a similar horror – perhaps based on that story.

          • Grant 12.4.1.1.2

            The Story you’re trying to recall was first published in 1953 by The Magazine of Fantasy and Science Fiction (Mercury Press). I read it in an anthology called Tales of Terror From Outer Space in 1978. The story is called The Ruum by Arthur Porges. Not a bad yarn.

      • Molly 12.4.2

        The Boston Dynamic video release is perfect propaganda, from song choice to moves. Even knowing that, I am entertained while also horrified.

        It is unlikely real life deployment will be dancing in the streets.

        https://youtu.be/fn3KWM1kuAw

    • mikesh 12.5

      The robots would have to be controlled digitally, which would probably lead to the development of digital defenses. Think about the way cell phones can interfere with the electronic workings of passenger aircraft.

      • lprent 12.5.1

        The robots would have to be controlled digitally

        Depends. Building a faraday cage into a bot is a lot simpler on a bot than it is on a aircraft. Except on a drone, then won’t be a lot of weight restrictions. Doing a sensor detect for an attack on sensors or comms isn’t that hard to detect, and to use to trigger a different mode.

        Semi-autonomous robots with relatively simple rules are the obvious way to handle comms blackout. Give them a simple set of rules that remove refinement but ensure the safety. Like kill everything that may be a threat within a geographical zone or explode if anything approaches.

        Let them run on inertial reckoning and an internal map and they don't need any signals at all – no GPS.

        I suspect that it would be a lot safer to not disable comms on a real warbot. There won't be any judgement in bot because the rules have to be simple to have a chance of working all of the time, and ensuring that a bot cannot be captured easily and repurposed.

  13. Molly 13

    It appears, to my embarrassment, that Jordan Peterson was right about the C-16 bill in Canada:

    He apparently made this argument:

    https://www.prowsechowne.com/blog/focus-understanding-controversy-surrounds-bill-c-16

    The problem with the usage of the above-mentioned pronouns, in the opinion of some free speech advocates, is that of compelled speech. Dr Jordan Peterson, a famous academic, clearly set forth his reservations with the bill in question in the Senate hearing on Bill C-16. To paraphrase Dr Peterson, the necessity to utter certain predetermined pronouns is a precedent that can handicap free speech because the legislation is about what must be said, instead of what cannot be said (with reference to standard hate-speech clauses). Furthermore, Peterson also had an issue with the narrowly defined terms such as ‘harassment’ as it is defined by the human rights tribunals.

    https://www.globalviews360.com/articles/jordan-peterson-and-bill-c-16-what-does-each-side-argue

    Critics have also voiced concerns that the law will penalize citizens who do not use specific pronouns when referring to gender diverse people.

    …Brenda Cossman, law professor at the University of Toronto and director of the Mark S. Bonham Centre for Sexual Diversity Studies, told CBC, “The misuse of gender pronouns, without more, cannot rise to the level of a crime,” she says. “It cannot rise to the level of advocating genocide, inciting hatred, hate speech or hate crimes … (it) simply cannot meet the threshold. Would it cover the accidental misuse of a pronoun? I would say it’s very unlikely. Would it cover a situation where an individual repeatedly, consistently refuses to use a person’s chosen pronoun? It might.

    The Canadian Human Rights Act does not mention pronouns either. The act protects certain groups from discrimination.

    But now the question was, if a person disagrees to use the pronouns for a person repeatedly on purpose, will it land that person in jail? To this, Jared Brown, commercial litigator at Brown Litigation, who often works with corporate clients on employment law and human rights disputes, told CBC, “It is possible, through a process that would start with a complaint and progress to a proceeding before a human rights tribunal. If the tribunal rules that harassment or discrimination took place, there would typically be an order for monetary and non-monetary remedies. A non-monetary remedy may include sensitivity training, issuing an apology, or even a publication ban. If the person refused to comply with the tribunal's order, this would result in a contempt proceeding being sent to the Divisional or Federal Court. The court could then potentially send a person to jail “until they purge the contempt,”” he said."

    "Would it cover a situation where an individual repeatedly, consistently refuses to use a person’s chosen pronoun? It might.

    We now have a judgement that says it does.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/canadian-tribunal-transgender-nonbinary-restaurant-worker-pronouns-b1931972.html

    A Canadian tribunal has awarded a transgender, non-binary server $30,000 and ruled refusal to use someone’s preferred pronouns as a human rights offence, during the settlement of an employment dispute.

    …Nelson took their case to the human rights tribunal, alleging that “Gobelle’s conduct towards them, and the employer’s response, amounts to discrimination in employment based on their gender identity and expression”, in violation of British Columbia’s Human Rights Code.

    The tribunal agreed that the deliberate, constant misgendering of Nelson was a violation of their human rights. They ordered the restaurant’s management to pay Nelson $30,000 in damages as well as “implement a pronoun policy and mandatory training for all staff and managers about diversity, equity and inclusion”.

    Testifying in their hearing, Nelson said: “I am here today in bringing this forward because it is important for me, as a trans person, to have my existence respected. I’m a human being, with a beating heart and a desire to be seen and valued and heard in the world.

    So, not compelled speech?

    Using english language to relate to biological sex may be all that is needed to charge you under the hate crime legislation in tribunals in Canada. (Our hate speech legislation, constructed on similar lines, requires scrutiny and adjustment to avoid this outcome.)

    That's a compelling reason to adjust your speech.

    • Anker 13.1

      https://www.stuff.co.nz/opinion/300532874/as-a-former-frontline-police-officer-watching-the-parliament-riot-made-me-cry

      An account of a former police officer on the frontline during the Springbox tour. She was trampled underfoot by protesters and recalls Molotov cocktails thrown at the police.

    • Anker 13.2

      Yes hard to admit Molly but Jordan Peterson was right.

      Watch this become law in NZ………….

      As someone who sometimes struggles to remember people's first name when I first meet them, this is a mindfield. I also don't think I or anyone else should be compelled to use peoples pro nouns. FFS no one has compelled us to use Maori e.g. Kia Ora. And of course what has happened is people have voluntarily started using it, which is how it shoudl go.

      I have never come across a "marginalized group" who has managed to enforce their belief system in the law.

      On a note to show the absurdity of this, Bristol University whose list of gender identity and preferred pronouns included Catgender with the pronoun Nya (Japanese for meow). Bristol university has since withdrawn their guidance on catgender

      • Molly 13.2.1

        Yes, the apparent validity of 'catgender' and 'emojiself' identities, exposes how far the ideology is willing to go when the adults have left the building,

        https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/catgender-bristol-university-pronoun-guide-b2010087.html

        Imagine the possibility of getting sued for not calling someone 'Pussy' or not saying 'Hello, smiley'. devil

        (Last emoji my own to denote sarcastic tone, not my pronoun'.

      • lprent 13.2.2

        As someone who sometimes struggles to remember people's first name when I first meet them…

        Happens to me all of the time and especially when I have been working.

        I mostly use my limited 'name' space for remembering the names of the code and data structures I am working on.

        I virtually never bother remembering people names when spoken because it is much harder for me to retain a sound 'image' than it is to remember a text 'shorthand'. To do the former takes an effort and I seldom need to remember peoples names because the likelihood of needing to know it again is so low. The latter I do all of the time.

        With people I meet, I just remember their face (seems to have a separate hard wire section in my brain), and any association I have with them. I barely even notice their names when introduced.

        Most of the people I interact with a lot in daily life (like work) are interactions are over a text medium like email or slack.

    • Psycho Milt 13.3

      It would be nice if liberals wouldn't go proving Jordan Peterson right about things, but they can't seem to help themselves.

      • weka 13.3.2

        Yep. The problem here isn't that JP is right, it's that No Debate has meant we don't have many or any voices presenting progressive or left challenges to compelled speech.

        • RedLogix 13.3.2.1

          The point is not that JP is right or wrong. Nobody is omniscient, nobody is the voice of absolute truth, yet everyone can speak to an authentic expertise, and some truth in their lives.

          What we can do is listen to people as if they had something of value to teach us, no matter how much we want to disagree with them.

          • Molly 13.3.2.1.1

            IIRC, JP's concerns were publicly dismissed by Human Right's lawyers at the time. The 'compassionate' commentariat all seemed to collectively agree that he was over-egging the omelette.

            What is of most relevance, is that the legislation was not amended to ensure that was the case when it came to implementation, and testing in court.

            So, were those reassurances deliberately given knowing that was possible?

            Or worse, were those reassurances deliberately given knowing that was possible and that it was that possibility that was the desired outcome all along?

            (Watching the submissions etc for the conversion therapy, self-id and hate speech you will see numerous examples of dismissal and reassurance. I remain unconvinced and wary.)

            • RedLogix 13.3.2.1.1.1

              When I was working in the Canadian Arctic in 2017 my partner sent me a link to a JP psych lecture that she enjoyed; we both watched quite a few of them and it gave us something to chat about on our evening calls. Thus we became quite familiar with his work somewhat before he was launched into wider public recognition due the C16 issue and the now infamous Cathy Newman interview.

              That much of the hard left hated him is not surprising; he challenged many of their beliefs very effectively. But if you listen to him broadly you fast understand that he addresses a very wider range of themes, and to pigeon-hole him as a thinker is to underestimate him terribly. Much of what he says about the root causes of inequality for instance are directly pertinent to the centre-left.

              And yes he was right on the C16 issue – long before anyone else was. And we also should acknowledge the personal and intellectual courage it took for him to speak out on this when few others were prepared to do so.

              • Molly

                RedLogix, I explained why I gave credence to lawyers over JP many years ago, erroneously, as it turns out. But I did spend time trying various articles and sources to understand the issue.

                I had no context for the Canadian cultural climate that he was speaking from.

                Can I ask, what persuaded you that he was right at the time?

          • Incognito 13.3.2.1.2

            Good pivot comment. How do you synthesise personal and anecdotal experience into a collective one? How do personal truths construct a universal one that many people can and do accept without excluding a priori alternatives truths that my sprout up and die at the fringes? It’s a two-way street, of course.

            • RedLogix 13.3.2.1.2.1

              We all make mistakes both as individuals and as nations. The crucial distinction is how do we self-correct? Individuals do this by testing their assumptions against people who disagree with them – as we do here at TS. Open societies have even more complex mechanisms, ideas like the sanctity of the individual, free speech, markets, an independent media, rule of law and accountability of leaders to enable them to identify and correct mistakes.

              JP has said many times that 'humans outsource their mental health'. In other words isolating ourselves, or surrounding ourselves with people who will only confirm what we already believe, is a path to disaster. For instance I would attribute much of Putin's actions to just this.

      • Anker 13.3.3

        Psycho Milt I think JP has proved himself right about this law. Molly was referencing him the context of the case where a restaurant owner has be fined $30,000 for not using someones pro nouns.

        Lets talk about that. What do people of the Standard about this???? It's time to have the debate, because my prediction is similar laws are on there way here.

        BTW I am a great believer in listening to all view points, event those I don't like…..I think it challenges my beliefs so they are not so fixed.

        • Psycho Milt 13.3.3.1

          Oh I agree, Peterson was right about this from the start and this ruling is a logical consequence of passing laws like this. I know liberals would point to other aspects of the case and say "Look, he wasn't fined for rejecting compelled speech, he was fined for this other harassment," but the fact that rejection of compelled speech could be raised at all in this case as evidence against the defendant shows Peterson was right.

          Proposed hate speech legislation here will have exactly the same effect: if you refuse to participate in belief rituals of someone who's declared themselves "trans," you'll be setting yourself up for a harassment claim.

          • weka 13.3.3.1.1

            Jessie Nelson asked Mr. Gobelle to stop referring to them as she/her and to stop using nicknames. The first time they spoke to Mr. Gobelle, they took a lighthearted approach. Ms. Coplin, who witnessed the exchange, described it as a “simple call in”, along the lines of “hey – I have a name. I’d love if you could use it”.

            However, the conduct persisted, and Jessie Nelson
            spoke to Mr. Gobelle at least two more times. They repeated that their name was Jessie and that, at the very least, if he could not use the right pronouns, he could use their name. Mr. Gobelle’s conduct persisted.

            http://www.bchrt.bc.ca/shareddocs/decisions/2021/sep/137_Nelson_v_Goodberry_Restaurant_Group_Ltd_dba_Buono_Osteria_and_others_2021_BCHRT_137.pdf

            Two things interest me here. One is that the Nelson was actually willing to meet Gobelle half way and he could use JN's name instead of pronouns.

            And following from that, is the inference here it is up to the trans person to decide where the boundary is. We know how that's working out in the UK. And it’s where the compelled speech issue lies.

        • Muttonbird 13.3.3.2

          The tribunal agreed that the deliberate, constant misgendering of Nelson was a violation of their human rights.

          It seems constant misgendering was the problem and amounted to harassment. Doesn't seem like this was a one off forgetting of someones name as you suggested is common @ 13.2.

          I agree, it can't be difficult to know what is the right thing to say to someone in situations where you are not familiar with (their) protocol, but it's a reach to claim Jordan Peterson is right when citing this particular case. Of course Peterson pimps the idea anyone should be able to say whatever the hell they want. No surprise there.

          In Molly's link, Brenda Cossman suggests this type of constant and deliberate harassment might constitute a crime. Looks like it does in Canada, and I can only hope the courts see it the same in New Zealand.

          • Molly 13.3.3.2.1

            Muttonbird.

            How many eyes do you have to cover to miss the point so spectacularly?

            'Misgendering' in plain English is 'You did not validate my internal identity feelings'. It should not be a crime or an offence to do so.

            Particularly when the common use of English is to refer to those who are women as she/her, or men as he/him. I don't subscribe to the current ideology that changes language to suit themselves, and also obfuscate discussions. Just because you do, it is not justification to require everyone else to limbo under your low standards of autonomy.

            "In Molly's link, Brenda Cossman suggests this type of constant and deliberate harassment might constitute a crime. Looks like it does in Canada, and I can only hope the courts see it the same in New Zealand."

            Yes, I often post the most neutral links I can find, so that discussions can take place from wider perspectives. It seems your wider perspective requires ignoring everything that interferes with a keyhole viewpoint. This should not be a crime or offence of any kind. Unless you do agree with compelled speech.

            • Muttonbird 13.3.3.2.1.1

              I think it is you who is missing the point. The Nelson case was judged on deliberate and constant references to the person for the purposes of harassment.

              I can't think of any situation where such deliberate and constant harassment in the workplace toward a person against their wishes would be allowed to stand.

              Misgendering has little to do with it. Workplace sexual harassment has everything to do with it.

              • Molly

                "Misgendering has little to do with it. Workplace sexual harassment has everything to do with it."

                Misgendering was the reason for both the claim and the judgement.

                Read the court transcript.

                • Muttonbird

                  Again you have left out the "deliberate, constant" part which is important.

                  • Molly

                    No, I haven't.

                    I consider it discourteous. Impolite. Related to English use for biological sex, which is still allowed, is it not?

                    But important, No.

                    At a level to be considered a chargeable hate crime or offence, No.

                    Do you consider it a hate crime or offence to compel someone to use language they are uncomfortable with? Because the requirement for the owner to use language in a way that they are not used to is also a form of controlled speech.

                    Violence that is not recognised only by the victim, is an issue that needs to be dealt with.

                    ‘Perceived’ violence that relates to language used for men and women universally, until this Twilight Zone period in culture, does not.

                    • mikesh

                      This reminds me of Humpty Dumpty's claim: when I use word it means exactly what I intend it to mean.

                      I think there has to be a case for linguistic precision. ie if someone is born a man he should be addressed as a man. That's objective, and any other practice is subjective. Once you make the meanings of words subjective, like Mr Dumpty, language descends into anarchy.

                    • Molly

                      @mikesh.

                      "I think there has to be a case for linguistic precision. ie if someone is born a man he should be addressed as a man. That's objective, and any other practice is subjective. Once you make the meanings of words subjective, like Mr Dumpty, language descends into anarchy."

                      I agree.

                      I think precise use of language is important. The benefits of this in communication are immense. When we appropriate existing use for other purposes, we create obstacles to universal understandings.

                      I disagree with required pronoun use.

                      I agree with the prevention of transgender discrimination.

                      I don't believe the two statements are contradictory.

                      On that note, I think I'll leave it for today.

    • weka 13.4

      good work Molly.

      The restaurant’s bar manager, Brian Gobelle, “persistently referred to Jessie Nelson with she/her pronouns and with gendered nicknames like ‘sweetheart’, ‘honey’, and ‘pinky’”, according to Devyn Cousineau, member of the British Columbia Human Rights Tribunal.

      When Nelson asked Gobelle to stop, he refused and a second conversation between them about the issue became tense. Nelson was then fired by the restaurant owner, Ryan Kingsberry, four days later.

      From your link. Also, the tribunal report,

      http://www.bchrt.bc.ca/shareddocs/decisions/2021/sep/137_Nelson_v_Goodberry_Restaurant_Group_Ltd_dba_Buono_Osteria_and_others_2021_BCHRT_137.pdf

      Gobelle sounds pretty sexist, possibly a bully. The issue here for me is whether the ruling would have happened on pronouns alone if Gobelle had been respectful generally.

      (as an aside, re the sexism, then we wonder why some women don't want to be women any more. Would a sexism complaint of this kind get very far in the BC HRT?)

      • Sabine 13.4.1

        Gobelle sounds pretty sexist, possibly a bully. The issue here for me is whether the ruling would have happened on pronouns alone if Gobelle had been respectful generally.

        (as an aside, re the sexism, then we wonder why some women don't want to be women any more. Would a sexism complaint of this kind get very far in the BC HRT?)

        we will never know, won't we? btw, sweetheart, honey, and pinky could all be considered gender neutral, unless of course we as a society pretend now that men are not called sweetheart, honey or pinky. Which frankly would be also quite sexist an assumption. Or would that be 'genderist" now that sex has become meaningless?

        • RedLogix 13.4.1.1

          Oddly enough my own partner sometimes calls younger women 'sweetie' as an innocent term of affection, but I used to find it a bit jarring because as a man I would be roasted for it.

          • Molly 13.4.1.1.1

            You understand why there is a difference?

            (Although, TBH I'm not usually on the receiving end of 'Sweetie' from either male or female)

        • weka 13.4.1.2

          I'd laugh but it's really not funny. How long until there is no sexism?

          If you haven't already, have a read of Kathleen Stock's essay on how liberal feminists are acting as if sexism will be over soon, so we don't need all that palaver about boundaries and men.

          https://kathleenstock.substack.com/p/abandon-hope-all-ye-who-enter-here?s=r

        • Molly 13.4.1.3

          Reading the testimony, it seems the case presented and judgement was purely on the misgendering aspect.

          I've worked with a few people, men and women, that use the same terms to refer to any and all.

          'Love', 'hon', 'sweetie', 'cuz' and the NZ vernacular – 'Mate.'

          I've also worked in hospitality businesses where the staff numbers are so large, or the turnover so high, the boss would only know your name if you were in trouble.

          The transcript is interesting reading. The understanding goes only one way. (The sexism is bypassed).

          • weka 13.4.1.3.1

            Men calling other men sweetie or love at work? I’ve not come across that.

            • Molly 13.4.1.3.1.1

              Not men calling other men, but we were agreed that sexism was no longer a problem, no?

              But did work with men that used the same moniker for women. 'Love' was really common in the UK. Both men and women use it. I just considered it a particular use of a universal term, when you may have trouble with names, or just a habit.

              Growing up with a spectacular number of relatives, the generic term of Aunty and Uncle served well, and masked inability to remember names. Especially useful, given that all had a given name and a nickname used interchangeably.

              The question remains, is this a discourtesy? Yes.

              Should it be a chargeable offence or crime? I'd say, no.

              • weka

                Not men calling other men, but we were agreed that sexism was no longer a problem, no?

                Ah, no, it was that liberals and post modernists think sexism will vanish if we abolish sex. I took Sabine's comment as her particular brand of dry satire.

                My point about sweetie, is that in specific contexts it is sexist, in that it's a term used by some men towards women when they want to minimise them (consciously or unconsciously). That the word gets used in other ways doesn't mean that doesn't happen.

                And I'm guessing in this situation it was sexism.

                • Molly

                  Sorry, should have put /sarc on my comment.

                  "And I'm guessing in this situation it was sexism."

                  I agree that it is sexist.

                  But the claim and the judgement was not made around the sexism, it was around the misgendering.

                  Claim:

                  Jessie Nelson alleges that Mr. Gobelle’s conduct towards them, and the employer’s response, amounts to discrimination in employment based on their gender identity and expression, in violation of s. 13 of the Human Rights Code [Code]. I agree.

                  Regarding the final incident in the dining room, the respondents overstate the amount of physical force that was involved. I have found that Jessie Nelson slapped Mr. Gobelle on the back. I do not want to minimize this conduct – clearly people should never touch each other without consent, particularly in anger. Jessie Nelson acknowledges this was inappropriate. However, there is no evidence that the contact actually hurt Mr. Gobelle or could fairly be characterized as violent. Its actual impact was to surprise and shock Mr. Gobelle and others who were present. At the same time, Mr. Buono’s assessment seriously underestimates the power of language and the impact of discrimination. I have set out some of that impact above and return to it below. Suffice to say that it is extremely serious. While he is critical of Jessie Nelson’s “condescending” use of the word “sweetie” and their slap on Mr. Gobelle’s back, Mr. Buono either failed to recognize or to give any consideration to the fact that Mr. Gobelle had, yet again, referred to Jessie Nelson as “her” in his angry rant. This is telling. Though he may have been genuinely committed to an inclusive workplace – and I accept that he was – Mr. Buono failed to identify and understand how that type of conduct was itself extremely harmful. In the specific context of this case, its impact was far greater than a single slap on the back.

                  • weka

                    thanks, I was getting a bit confused (one of the problems with running with Sabine's sarcasm too far).

                    That the claim is over gender not sexism is interesting.

                    • Sabine

                      Because 'sex' ism is dead. You can not have no sex and still insist in sex'ism. does not work that way. Discrimination on the grounds of sex is no longer. Pay discrimination on the grounds of sex is no longer. Jobs to be given to a person on the grounds of sex are also dead. The new game in town is Gender, and you can be any gender without every having to do anything to your appearance. Heck you can change your gender twice a day. Mr. in the mornings, Mrs. in the evenings and according the the pronoun punters that would be so trans, and sprinkle the sparkles with abandon.

                      You say men calling other men honey is not the norm? how about men identifying as women calling other men honey and sweety. Oh that is just women being 'sexist'? 🙂

                      They did not care about the sexism, they were trying their new law, and frankly if people in that part of Canada were to not hire people with pink hair and they / them pronouns who could blame them.

            • RedLogix 13.4.1.3.1.2

              Over here if an Aussie calls you a 'cunt' and you haven't done anything to piss him off recently – then congratulations you have entered the matezone!

              • Molly

                Language is a strange thing.

                There's often a cultural disconnect, that fails to recognise those who employ the bluest language that have the most egalitarian outlook. ie. everyone is treated the same.

                Some of the most violent sentences can be said without cursing:

                'This is our secret. Don't tell Mum or Dad.'

                'I want to know where you are at all times.'

                'That's not the sauce for sausages'.

                • Puckish Rogue

                  'Southland beneficiary Cameron Scott Sheard, 30, had been in a relationship with his partner, 60, for the past 10 years.'

                  So he was 20 and she was 50 when they met

                  • Molly

                    "So he was 20 and she was 50 when they met"

                    Yes.

                    But the control seemed to be in his hands, rather than hers. I think the usual assumptions (which always have to be challenged regardless of sex) is that the older partner is in control. That doesn't seem to be the case here.

              • Incognito

                The male terms of endearment can be quite Freudian.

                • Molly

                  That would be counter Freudian, from the small part I understand of his work.

                  Seems strange to affectionately call someone else of the male sex, a term that is used for a female body part. But the difference in tone when it is used as an insult is easily recognisable.

                  (Only equivalence I can think of is hearing English women using the word 'Cock', as a universal term for a person but I believe it relates to the swagger of the male chicken. ie. Cock of the walk)

                  'Dick' is only used for a man.

                  This is a thought exercise I thought I'd left behind at high school… wink

          • Sabine 13.4.1.3.2

            This too makes for interesting reading. 🙂 A different point of view for those that still allow for such things.

            https://www.womenarehuman.com/tribunal-declares-it-a-human-rights-offense-to-not-use-preferred-pronouns/

            Never mind, i am sure that this ruling in 2021 will lead to many of the pronoun punters being hired.

            • Molly 13.4.1.3.2.1

              The court transcript posted above relates that the misgendered Jessie slapped the misgenderer on the back, and sarcastically called him 'sweetie'. But the harm from that didn't compare.

              The transcript also relates how vulnerable Jessie used a staff meeting, justifiably bringing up criticism about rape jokes etc, but then adding the following:

              Jessie Nelson then took the opportunity to speak up about how staff could make the restaurant a more inclusive place for trans guests by using gender neutral language. They explained: “We don’t know who’s walking in the door. Wouldn’t it be kind of us to not assume anything about them?”. For example, instead of greeting a group of guests with “hi ladies” or “hey guys”, they suggested that staff could use words like “folks” or “friends”, or skip collective pronouns altogether. They used their own experience going to restaurants to highlight the harm that can be caused by misgendering a guest: I used … the general example of being in restaurants and being misgendered. Oftentimes it will be me with a group of femme‐appearing or female people and a server will come up and say, “hey ladies”, which takes me completely out of that experience. I don’t feel like I’m at the table anymore. I now feel that I have to correct the server, or my friends feel like I do. When the server leaves, it’s not like that moment is over. Now my friends are worried about me and feeling that they have to take care of me. It changesthe entire environment, the entire experience. And that’s why people go to restaurants – is to have an experience, to have somebody serve them food and have a higher value night. The reaction to this suggestion was mixed. Mr. Kingsberry was supportive, as were some other staff. On the other hand, some staff reacted defensively and offered resistance. Ms. Melanson testified that she felt that Jessie Nelson and Ms. Coplin had aggressively taken over the meeting. Both were relatively new to the restaurant, and Ms. Melanson found it “bizarre” that they would take it upon themselves to effectively “run the meeting”. She says, “it was a lot in a short period” and that Jessie Nelson was coming off very “strong”. This is the same type of language that would later be used to explain why their employment was terminated. After the meeting, Ms. Melanson spoke to one of the servers who was particularly upset at the suggestion that she should change the way she greets guests.

        • Shanreagh 13.4.1.4

          we will never know, won't we? btw, sweetheart, honey, and pinky could all be considered gender neutral, unless of course we as a society pretend now that men are not called sweetheart, honey or pinky.

          This struck me too Sabine. As one who called her husband Honey and was Honeyed back it and was called sweetheart/sweetie/sweetie pie back and forth back it must be that in Canada that Honey and Sweetheart are male to female terms. Never heard of Pinky for a woman but have heard of Pinky as a nickname for a guy with red hair.

          Some people, often from North of England call everyone 'dear' or 'love'. In the 70s as females we were always very careful about this as most did not want to be just anyone's 'dear' or 'love' and some used it very patronisingly to get a reaction.

          So I think it must have happened on pronouns plus a general lack of respect as evidenced by the words honey etc used in their Canadian context of referring to females.

          While in written work it is easy to get the pronouns correct it is not so easy sometimes in speech. I must admit I have always used them/their/its/they so I did not have to do the male/female stuff…it was a way to bland out the male inference/influence. The pronouns 'he, she, it, them, their, they' are used about someone aren't they? 'You' would fit all genders, plural or singular in direct speech in a workplace.

          So to use 'she' when 'their' is preferred is very deliberate in my view.

          • Molly 13.4.1.4.1

            "So to use 'she' when 'their' is preferred is very deliberate in my view."

            Deliberate or not. It is also an accurate use of the term for biological sex in the third person. It should not be an offence or crime to utilise language in this way.

            • weka 13.4.1.4.1.1

              The other aspect here is to what extent it’s reasonable for people with mental health problems to expect a workplace to accommodate that. Some but there are limits

            • Muttonbird 13.4.1.4.1.2

              This is dead naming and isn't accepted practice these days. Statutes around the developed world are beginning to catch up.

              • Molly

                'Deadnaming' is an issue, but transwidows continuing that theme with the term transwidows is transphobic and violent. Yuh-ha.

                The constant language appropriation and monitoring is indicative of a movement that strives to be misunderstood.

                As for the whole 'deadnaming' aspect. Any movement that cannot acknowledge their own experience and history is one that is living in world disconnected from reality. But the belief that you can change sex probably is the clue there.

                I would think that mental health experts that are uncaptured or unrestrained by gender ideology would have a lot to say about such repression.

                It's time for the adults in the room to grow up.

                • weka

                  Yep. Wikipedia articles should refer to both sets of names.

                  It's the same at forcing women to call their rapists she in court. Bizarre beyond belief.

                • Muttonbird

                  There's been a couple of references now attaching mental health (issues) to transgenderism. Not sure I'm comfortable with that. The inference appears to be that transgenderism is a mental health defect.

                  The constant language appropriation and monitoring is indicative of a movement that strives to be misunderstood.

                  Rather, understood?

                  • weka

                    I don't believe trans or gender non-conformity is a mental illness. I do think that gender dysphoria is.

                    Intolerance of other people's reality, to the point of compelling language, that stems from the suffering inherent in dysphoria, is obviously problematic for society. One could argue there are similarities to what we've seen at parliament in the past month. People so convinced of their own beliefs, to the point of denying reality.

                    I don't know if that's the case with Jessie Nelson. They clearly offered the co-worker the option of using their name, so they come across as reasonable to me. I'm arguing the general point here.

                    From the BC HRT,

                    Jessie Nelson explains:
                    It’s an incredibly dysphoric feeling. I’ve lived my entire life attempting to self‐express and figure out who I am and find a place in this world. And I’ve worked very very hard and gone through a lot to get here. And it’s a
                    challenging battle to have on a daily basis, even when people don’t mean it, let alone when somebody is doing it purposely.

                    I took that to mean that JN has gender dysphoria, although it's not entirely clear

                    • felix

                      "It’s an incredibly dysphoric feeling. I’ve lived my entire life attempting to self‐express and figure out who I am and find a place in this world. And I’ve worked very very hard and gone through a lot to get here. And it’s a challenging battle to have on a daily basis…"

                      Meh. Just like everyone else.

                  • Molly

                    "Rather, understood?"

                    No. I'm careful with language. I strive for clear communication and understanding. I meant what I wrote.

                    "There's been a couple of references now attaching mental health (issues) to transgenderism. Not sure I'm comfortable with that."

                    Now, thanks for the prime example of the problem with the misuse or reappropriation of language.

                    WPATH guidelines (lobby initiated rather than evidence based, BTW) took gender dysphoria out of the mental health definitions.

                    I differentiate between gender dysphoria, and the adoption of a gender identity without dysphoria.

                    For the best patient outcomes, the first should have remained in the clinical practices of psychotherapy, and other medical professionals.

                    The second is a healthy exploration of identity and self that requires no medical, surgical or compelled social acceptance to be useful. It also requires a grounding in reality, that the material sexed body you live in has consequences in all aspects of life, even if you choose not to recognise it.

                    There are many lies in gender ideology:

                    Primarily, men are women and women are men.

                    Gay people are attracted to the same gender rather than the same sex. (This has conversion therapy written all over it).

                    Best practice norms for support are abandoned.

                    'Deadnaming' is a really weird concept. The tabula rasa nature of it, that denies past life experience because it is too traumatic, is an approach that would not be recommended for any other trauma victim. Victims that have had sexual abuse trauma, war crimes, lost families to violence are all supported to find healthy ways to deal with and accommodate those experiences into their lives. Gender ideology does the opposite, while retaining the victim status.

                    Gender identity is considered a non-medical phenomenon. As mentioned above, I agree in most cases. However, a medical response is often demanded, by medication, surgery or both. A study I read on transgender surgery had the life expectancy of a person reduced by 20 years. We don't have the evidence base on the long term use of puberty blockers and cross sex hormones, but we are using them for a non-medical condition. The cost of meeting this demand will be lifelong for the state, and will reduce the budget and resources for other medical problems, that are actually medical.

                    Read SEGM's review of the new Swedish guidelines, that reviewed available DATA and came to the conclusion that psychotherapy support was the most beneficial.

                    https://www.socialstyrelsen.se/om-socialstyrelsen/pressrum/press/uppdaterade-rekommendationer-for-hormonbehandling-vid-konsdysfori-hos-unga/

                    Go there for the report, and go to the top right hand of the page to change to English.

                    • Molly

                      Alternatively, because the full pdf is in Swedish, visit the SEGM review which I meant to include in the previous comment.

                      https://segm.org/segm-summary-sweden-prioritizes-therapy-curbs-hormones-for-gender-dysphoric-youth

                      NBHW emphasized the need to treat gender dysphoric youth with dignity and respect, while providing high quality, evidence-based medical care that prioritizes long-term health. NBHW also emphasized that identity formation in youth is an evolving process, and that the experience of natural puberty is a vital step in the development of the overall identity, as well as gender identity.

                      In light of above limitations in the evidence base, the ongoing identity formation in youth, and in view of the fact that gender transition has pervasive and lifelong consequences, the NBHW has concluded that, at present, the risks of hormonal interventions for gender dysphoric youth outweigh the potential benefits.

                      As a result of this determination, the eligibility for pediatric gender transition with puberty blockers and cross-sex hormones in Sweden will be sharply curtailed. Only a minority of gender dysphoric youth—those with the “classic” childhood onset of cross-sex identification and distress, which persist and cause clear suffering in adolescence—will be considered as potentially eligible for hormonal interventions, pending additional, extensive multidisciplinary evaluation.

                      For all others, including the now-prevalent cohort of youth whose transgender identities emerged for the first time during or after puberty, psychiatric care and gender-exploratory psychotherapy will be offered instead. Exceptions will be made on a case-by-case basis, and the number of clinics providing pediatric gender transition will be reduced to a few highly specialized centralized care centers.

                      France has also just changed policy on medical interventions for transgender youth.

                      We can delight and watch with understanding the joy and lows of self exploration and identity. But we remain the adults, and we should ensure that the support we provide is not one that comes from immersing ourselves in that journey to the point where safeguarding and responsibilities are abandoned.

                • Anker

                  100% Molly.

                  It is unreasonable to think that others will automatically validate their belief system.

                  I don't believe in gender ideology, although I believe other people have a right to their beliefs. I feel the same about religion. But I wouldn't expect christians to tell me I have to say amen at the end of a work meeting.

                • Joanne Perkins

                  I see that on this site it's ok to say someone you disagree with is disconnected from reality, yet you constantly say you're not transphobic, but there is is. This is why I choose to not engage with you any more, other then to point out the contradictions ion what you say you are, and what your words show you are

                  • Molly

                    "I see that on this site it's ok to say someone you disagree with is disconnected from reality, yet you constantly say you're not transphobic, but there is is. "

                    Be really specific here, Joanne. Because I have run out of patience with those who take offence at the mere whisper that they are challenged. At your age, I would hope for more.

                    What I said was:

                    "Any movement that cannot acknowledge their own experience and history is one that is living in world disconnected from reality. But the belief that you can change sex probably is the clue there."

                    There are two statements you can challenge here by saying the following:

                    1. That a movement that requires individuals within it to deny their own history and experiences before a certain point is a healthy one, grounded in reality.

                    2. That biological sex can be changed.

                    I disagree, with the first, but am willing to hear your thoughts on why that is a good perspective to take.

                    I disagree with the second. But agree that secondary sex characteristics can be achieved in various ways, including but not limited to medication and surgery.

                    I really can't be bothered saying I'm not transphobic anymore, because without identifying you exactly how – and what transphobia is – that word is rendered meaningless.

                    Does it mean I am scared of transgender people? Not true.

                    Does it mean that I would treat them differently due to their gender identity. Not true. (But then that includes using my current understanding of the English language to refer to them in the third person, unless I extend them the courtesy I would give a religious title for a religion I do not believe in. I definitely would be loathe to participate in someone's else's need for external validation, because i don't think that's a healthy way of being.)

                    Does it then mean that I might treat them the same without fear or favour and that is transphobic? Seems to be.

                    "This is why I choose to not engage with you any more, other then to point out the contradictions ion what you say you are, and what your words show you are"

                    Engagement with you is difficult, because you seem unable to step back from personal experience and look at the wider picture. I have only ever treated you with the same attitude as everyone else. I have taken the time to listen, and put my point of view, and disagreed when disagreement was the result.

                    This may mean that I am contentious, or disagreeable. It is not evidence of transphobia.

              • Anker

                You are o.k. with it being a crime to use someone's birth name?

                Do you think back in the 70's were women were often called sweetie etc, that they should have bought in a law that the if you called someone that in your work place you should get fined $30,000?

                • joe90

                  women were often called sweetie etc, that they should have bought in a law that the if you called someone that in your work place you should get fined $30,000?

                  We live in a brave new world.
                  /

                  Calling female work colleagues “love” or “honey” is demeaning and is not the same as calling male co-workers “mate”, a tribunal has ruled.

                  Mike Hartley, a funeral home manager, was sacked after being accused of making inappropriate remarks to young women at work, including calling female colleagues “sweet”, “love”, “chick” and “honey”.

                  After he lost his job, Mr Hartley tried to argue that he was the victim of sex discrimination because he also gave men pet names such as “mate” or “pal”.

                  https://archive.ph/lZheg (torygraph)

                  • Molly

                    'Sexism' and 'racism' are linked to material reality, ie, you can tell what sex or race someone is from a photo with a high degree of accuracy. The condescension or diminutives that are used, are distinct and not interchangeable with accepted language for particular characteristics. ie, Calling someone Dutch is not an insult, just inaccurate if they are not from the Netherlands. I'm sure we can all think of examples of racist terms, that are never appropriate to use and easily recognised as racist terms. Calling someone:

                    A tribunal in Manchester found it was inappropriate to compare the two, as the way he addressed men did not undermine them in the way his names for women did.

                    “Calling someone ‘mate’ or ‘lad’ is not a ‘pet’ name, in our opinion. It is a nickname,” said Pauline Feeney, an employment judge. “They are not demeaning … however, ‘chick’, ‘babes’, ‘bobs’, ‘honey’, ‘hun’ and ‘sweetie’ are all demeaning and infantilising ways of referring to women.”

                    With discrimination relating to religion, it's a consideration that needs to be made on belief, and harder to quantify. But refusing to call someone Vicar or Father or Sister, would be a hard reason for dismissal if you did not share that religion.

                    Gender identity, is in this belief basket. However, the terms that are considered 'offensive' also have contemporary English use in relation to biological sex, and that is where the difficulty arises. By legislating crimes and offences for using those words in the way that is usual, the law is upholding a belief for one demographic over the beliefs and language of another.

                    The words she/her, he/him, they/them, woman/man, girl/boy, male/female have pre-existing meanings. The meanings relate to biological sex. Those meanings are not offensive.

                    To take offence is to demand others share your belief.

                    The article you linked to is another issue really. It was an appeal of a dismissal for sexual harassment, that included but was not limited to, the use of sexist language.

                  • Anker

                    ok Joe 90 what about outside of a work situation? Because employment law likely covers what you can and can't say at work.

            • Shanreagh 13.4.1.4.1.3

              The key point though is not our personal beliefs but the extent to which a workplace is required to abide by legislation that prohibits harassment, etc.

              The Canadian Human rights legislation obviously has explicit prohibitions or its provisions are wide enough to incorporate this kind of harassment. Harassment it was, as it occurred more than once and a pattern was established quite early on in the employment

              The judgement is very careful to test the behaviour of all parties and place it in the legal framework. That some did not attend or had some sort of amnesiac episode made it harder.

              To me it is very reminiscent of the 'battles' we had as women when looking at language/ employment processes in 1970s/80s. Right down to the older, stick in the mud, smarty pants, smarmy joke telling, teasing older male. The battles to be Ms when to be Miss meant you were dried up spinster or fair game for any smutty joke around, and Mrs was usually only acceptable if you were married/widowed/divorce. The battle for policies to be framed with both males/females in mind and were also drafted addressing any explicit female concerns. These will be drafted, if not already to cater for trans etc. In Govt depts they will be well down the track as most already have LGBT policies etc.

              To me this is is like the discrimination training that is carried out in many NZ workplaces. While it would be great to have a 'hearts and minds', 'Road to Damascus' change of mind when a workplace abides by and teaches/trains its staff about the 'isms', the workplace can also be satisfied with staff not offending against the isms while in the workplace.

              I used to say to my staff while I would love for you to never discriminate against anyone ever again, I will accept that a non discriminatory persona can be put on at the door of the lift to the workplace. So you will comply at work, if you do not comply at work disciplinary action may be/will be taken against you.

              From an employers point of view this workplace put itself at risk in several ways

              1 no existing prohibition against sexist etc language apparently….. did Gobelle out of the blue start teasing about hair colour, using diminutives etc. I think not. I suspect he was always one to be doing this so the workplace may have been non complying as a workplace. If it had no background in expecting an ism-free workplace then an employee expecting courtesy against a background of being non discriminatory would have a hard road ahead.

              2 No way should one staff member have been expected to take this misgendering up with another staff member more than once even in a light hearted way. Especially not against a senior status employee. The workplace could have set up a meeting asap during work hours by swapping staff, bringing working owners in if they had any, bringing in other staff to cover at short notice.

              Hospo can be a difficult place to work in some cases if chef and bar managers rule the roost and are male.

              The language can look ugly at first. But we will get used to it.

              • Molly

                "The language can look ugly at first. But we will get used to it."

                This is not about sexism or patriachy in the workplace. It is about legislation being discussed and enacted with reassurances that misgendering would need to meet a high threshold to be an offence or crime.

                Race and sex are physical realities.

                Gender identity is a concept unable to be quantified. And it is fluid. Two aspects that make it problematic to legislate for.

                This legislation also makes it an offence to use accepted terms for biological sex in the workplace.

                It is about the inability to use 'she' or 'her' when referring to a woman in the workplace. The usual terms that relate to women.

                As such it is compelled speech.

                A comparable example is requiring a person to refer to a priest as Father, when they do not subscribe to your religion. It is a courtesy to do so, but not a crime or offence not to.

                Do you understand the difference?

                • Shanreagh

                  Do you understand the difference?

                  Yes I understand the difference in treatment that you are trying to justify.

                  I understand that for some reason you are not able to see parallels between the fight that women had for acceptance in the workplace and apply those parallels to another group seeking acceptance in the workplace.

                  I am not sure why this is.

                  What other groups do you feel are not eligible to be granted humanity and civility in the workplace enforced or backed by legislation if necessary?

                  I gather you may not been at the forefront of women's fights in the workplace for acceptance. I have been both personally and professionally. That is why I was able to immediately see the parallels. We surely do not have to relearn this hurtful non acceptance of difference at every generation, we can bring forward our experiences and learn from them.

                  I personally am heartened that the Canadian HRT legislation has the ability to deal with this kind of what is basically discrimination in the workplace.

                  I gave an indication of just who was behind much of the crap stuff we faced

                  To me it is very reminiscent of the 'battles' we had as women when looking at language/ employment processes in 1970s/80s. Right down to the older, stick in the mud, smarty pants, smarmy joke telling, teasing older male.

                  This was a similar type of person that Jessie Nelson suffered with.

                  So yes I do understand what compelled speech is etc. I think your example of the 'Father ' is belittlingly dissimilar to the Canadian case. One moment Rev'd Ron with his dog collar on is in the church and an hour later Ron is in civvy clothes out with friends at a cafe.

                  Trans is not something like a change of clothes.

                  Polite speech and appropriate recogniton of difference gets us much further forward & is totally different. To accept that a trans person wants to use their own pronouns is fine to me. Just because they are able to does not mean that he/she users will have to use the same pronouns. Surely he/she will be OK or do you know different? Citing would be good if you do.

                  In the real world of workplaces though we cannot rely on humans to be polite and respectful, and tolerant of difference. That is why we have Human Rights legislation. This helps smoothe any distinction or differences in treatment for workmates who happen to be transpeople, Maori, female, with a disability etc tec. To encourage good behaviour only goes a little way. Legislation is needed as well….the iron fist in a velvet glove approach. This helps anyone in the existing workplace or helps to break down any barriers to acceptance of diversity in all its manifestations in the workplace.

                  I am hoping that you are familiar with concepts of diversity and how seeing ourselves in a workplace can encourage us to use that workplace to access help or support. It can also help us make money. If we as a cafe show that we are tolerant people who are more likely to get customers from a wider range of people.

                  While it would be great to accept and expect that others will use polite and inclusive language and treat others as they themselves would wish to be treated, this is pie in the sky stuff. It did not work for Maori, females, people with a disability, it does not work for many who wish to practice their religion etc.

                  So yes I do actually understand that you wish to run a compelled speech argument. I do also have a long and lived in experience of all the 'isms' in the workplace both from a woman in the work force, as a manager in the workforce trying to ensure that staff saw the benefits of being open and accepting of a diverse workforce and also from the point of view of writing and introducing policy documents around the 'isms in the workplace.

                  Even if you cannot – I can see that there are very great parallels between the intro of the terms acceptable to Trans people as there were to the intro of terms acceptable to women in the workforce.

                  If you look at the Canadian case from the point of view of pointedly ignoring pronouns, then ignoring the offer to call them by their first name, you can see that the behaviour is persistent and therefore harassing. You can see that it is not the same as someone making a slip or a genuine mistake. In HR work on Human rights, persistency is key, if the person consistently and persistently breaches then you have a problem to be dealt with.

                  I am still appalled at the sleight of hand conjuring job on the birth certificates approach.

                  However trans people come to be identified that should not mean that others should have free rein to belittle them in a workplace setting.

                  • Molly

                    So yes I do understand what compelled speech is etc. I think your example of the 'Father ' is belittlingly dissimilar to the Canadian case. One moment Rev'd Ron with his dog collar on is in the church and an hour later Ron is in civvy clothes out with friends at a cafe.

                    Trans is not something like a change of clothes.

                    For some, not all, it is though. And people still refer to priests as Father when they are in plainclothes. It is a courtesy, one extended to also to trans people but not one that is worth legislation to make an offence when not adhered to.

                    If you look at the Canadian case from the point of view of pointedly ignoring pronouns, then ignoring the offer to call them by their first name, you can see that the behaviour is persistent and therefore harassing. You can see that it is not the same as someone making a slip or a genuine mistake. In HR work on Human rights, persistency is key, if the person consistently and persistently breaches then you have a problem to be dealt with.

                    However trans people come to be identified that should not mean that others should have free rein to belittle them in a workplace setting.

                    I am reading your comments. Thank you for taking the time to explain yourself, but I still disagree.

                    There is no distinction between 'pointedly ignoring pronouns' and 'using English in the way to denote biological sex'. The offence relies on the 'perception' of the victim. That is a problem, when the language is the same.

                    I believe that self-identity is an individual experience, and has a range of diversity that is both wide and far-ranging. I also believe that every human has a material reality, a biological sex.

                    The distinction between the two matters.

                    Creating offences for language used for one, to cater to the wishes of individuals who wish to ignore it, is problematic.

                    'She' is not a problematic word.

                    'Her' is not an insult.

                    There is no kindness or inclusion in capitulating to demands that require such distinctions to be made. Religious followers that demand others follow their beliefs in a secular environment would be rightly turned down. External validation should not be a requirement for transgender people. That's a poor position to place yourself and others in. Unsustainable.

                    (As far as I am concerned, HR is often a profession (industry) that causes more conflict that it resolves. I don't have the regard for it that you do.)

                    "Even if you cannot – I can see that there are very great parallels between the intro of the terms acceptable to Trans people as there were to the intro of terms acceptable to women in the workforce."

                    Provide an example of the parallel. I can't see one from your comment, or conceive of the need for women to be validated by the subverted use of accepted language terms being part of the women's liberation movement.

                    • Molly

                      Regardless of the sexist terms, the Canadian case was put forward and settled on the application of C16 in regards to misgendering. The persistent refusal to use they/them.

                      weka links to the court transcript above.

                      Claim:

                      Jessie Nelson alleges that Mr. Gobelle’s conduct towards them, and the employer’s response, amounts to discrimination in employment based on their gender identity and expression, in violation of s. 13 of the Human Rights Code [Code]. I agree

                      Judgement:

                      I order Buono Osteria to include a statement in its employee policies that affirms every employee’s right to be addressed with their correct pronouns. The restaurant can draft its own language, but it could be something like: “Pronouns – All team members have the right to be addressed by their own personal pronouns.” I also encourage, but do not order, the restaurant to update its policies to use nonbinary, gender neutral language throughout. This would mean, for example, replacing references to men or women with ‘people’ and replacing his/his/she/hers with they/them.

                      "So everyone is their/they……as I said earlier in drafting policies etc in a workplace plus talking about workplace issues in a neutral but inclusive and non threatening way, I have used 'their' or 'they' so as to avoid having to use his/her."

                      Great. You have a personal approach that avoids having to deal with this issue. That doesn't mean that your approach is universally required or appropriate.

                      "So in the last 40 or so years…..are you seriously saying policy writers go back to she/her he/his and gaps that will be able to be slid through by those seeking to disadvantage women either inadvertently or deliberately."

                      I have read this a couple of times, and don't understand what you are asking. I think you have misunderstood my comment, or I have failed to be clear.

                      You have also lost me. I asked for an example of the parallel between women's rights in the workplace, and this particular language use. I'm still waiting.

                    • Shanreagh

                      Do you agree with any part of the Human Rights legislation framework?

                      It is an extension of the Human Rights framework to include trans. I don't find that controversial. As I said I do find the way to become trans is controversial.

                      I would be controversial though if you did not believe that a rights framework was needed at all. I can see it would be just adding to something you did not believe as necessary in the first place.

                      You now feel that a way to make an argument is to refer slightingly to a former employment of mine. I am proud of the ground breaking work I was able to be part of, part of teams that made employment better, fair for all our employees to strive for and get diverse, challenging and fun workplaces. Without competent and trained HR people this would not have been possible.

                      I would suggest that this work has given me a better understanding of the actual issues in the Canadian case that you are struggling with.

                      Anyway ad hominem by another name (profession) is not my scene.

                      Just to be clear again I have no problems with either the Canadian judgement or if a similar approach/words was introduced here.

                      Many policies in the Govt & state sector workplaces already use gender neutral language and have done so for the last 40 or so years. it is clear and concise, These policies will be able to be used without great amendment in the future. If the Human Rights legislation adds extra clauses about misgendering and cases such as this come about then it will all be part of learning and acceptance

                    • Molly

                      @Shanreagh.

                      "You now feel that a way to make an argument is to refer slightingly to a former employment of mine. I am proud of the ground breaking work I was able to be part of, part of teams that made employment better, fair for all our employees to strive for and get diverse, challenging and fun workplaces. Without competent and trained HR people this would not have been possible."

                      Firstly, apologies for that. I understood you were a boss or manager, and did not mean to denigrate your work experience. As I am sure you did not mean to denigrate mine. "I gather you may not been at the forefront of women's fights in the workplace for acceptance. I have been both personally and professionally. That is why I was able to immediately see the parallels."

                      Making assumptions in order to dismiss is problematic in any context. I apologise for any comment I made that sought to do so.

                      Do you agree with any part of the Human Rights legislation framework?

                      It is an extension of the Human Rights framework to include trans. I don't find that controversial. As I said I do find the way to become trans is controversial.

                      Of course. And of course.

                      But this particular battle on pronouns is not about inclusion, because it impacts on the ability to use accurate language that is inoffensive without giving offence.

                      "Just to be clear again I have no problems with either the Canadian judgement or if a similar approach/words was introduced here."

                      I understand that. I also understand that all the commentary that denigrated Jordan Peterson when he said that this would be the result of the C-16 bill, was proven to be incorrect. That means that the consultation and reassurances were skewed to a particular outcome.

                      I do have a problem with it. Because the words deemed offensive already exist as non-offensive words with particular meanings that are also accurate and non-offensive.

                      On this we disagree.

                    • Shanreagh

                      Provide an example of the parallel. I can't see one from your comment, or conceive of the need for women to be validated by the subverted use of accepted language terms being part of the women's liberation movement.

                      In a word no, not in the way you have phrased it, I did not mention 'subverted' or 'validated' .

                      If you knew anything about the womens lib movement you will be aware that reform of language was a key part.

                      Women in govt, positions of influence were confronted with policy and legislation that was written completely in the 'he/his' language. Many times we found that 'he' was interpreted, even allowing for the common legislative convention, as applying to 'hes' only. There was toying with the his/her but this soon gave way to the they/their.

                      There were males, and some females who were against making it gender neutral By making it gender neutral we were able to show that policies applied to all. The Canadian case seemed to be similar to the language arguments we had getting to gender neutral.

                      So why not use just he? Well because you are interpreting it as only applying to males and excluding females

                      So why not he/she? Well does he/she imply some sort of precedence? He comes first before she? Well why not have it he/she and she/he alternatively. Then her/his and his/her.

                      phew

                      Could we just have they/theirs – yes problem solved.

                      But this is all lost if we go back to she/he

                      From Google – some ideas of gender neutral language.

                      1 https://www.digital.govt.nz/standards-and-guidance/design-and-ux/content-design-guidance/inclusive-language/gender-inclusive-language/

                      2 Avoid Gendered Pronouns Where Possible

                      “When a writer experiences writer's block, she should…” To make it gender-neutral, we want to get rid of the pronoun “she”. … only a noun: “When experiencing writer's block, a writer should…”

                      3 http://www.pco.govt.nz/8.2

                      The above 3 is excellent and is the standard aspired to in parliamentary and legislative drafting.

                      This is in general writing……the pronouns apply to us as people. They should be reflective of us. Many will be he/his, she/hers some trans may identify as she/her or he/his. Some will identify as they/their.

                      The Canadian legislation seems to cater for she/her, he/his and they/their. I don't see it is such a big step to adopt the same here. And if the possibility exists of pronouns being used to discriminate then to legislate against this.

                      The fact that Jordan Paterson raised this possibility for the Canadian legislation is neither here nor there for me, a stopped clock is right twice a day. Have we in NZ been advised we are following the Canadian legislative example?

                    • Molly

                      @Shanreagh.

                      The politicians, commentators and legislators lied when they said that the passing of the C-16 bill would not criminalise people for using existing English pronouns for people.

                      That is why the C-16 bill is in place.

                      Discrimination against transgender people is unwanted.

                      This is not about discrimination though. It is a demand for people to stop using language in the way they have previously, in order to accommodate someone else's personal use of language.

                      That is why you don't have a parallel in terms of women's equality.

                      It doesn't exist.

                      Worse is to come. The demand for use of personal pronouns takes that original use of language, and makes it a crime or offence to continue using it.

                      "If you knew anything about the womens lib movement you will be aware that reform of language was a key part.

                      Women in govt, positions of influence were confronted with policy and legislation that was written completely in the 'he/his' language. Many times we found that 'he' was interpreted, even allowing for the common legislative convention, as applying to 'hes' only. There was toying with the his/her but this soon gave way to the they/their.

                      There were males, and some females who were against making it gender neutral By making it gender neutral we were able to show that policies applied to all. "

                      This is not the same.

                      The terms men/male excluded the consideration of biological women/females.

                      But on an individual level, people are still either women or men.

                      The Canadian legislation seems to cater for she/her, he/his and they/their. I don't see it is such a big step to adopt the same here. And if the possibility exists of pronouns being used to discriminate then to legislate against this.

                      Pronouns already have existing meanings. Just because people use them with those existing meanings in mind, does not automatically mean that they are being discriminatory. Avoiding these accusations by using gender neutral language as you repeatedly advise, is not dealing with the problem. It is kicking the can down the road.

                      I support the right of anyone to self-expression.

                      I also support the right of those who use the English language in accurate ways to reflect biological sex.

                      The problem is not discrimination. It is that discrimination accusations are based around non-offensive pronoun use that is accurate for those who use it to refer to biological sex.

                      It might seem like a small concession to you. I disagree.

                      I think it is discriminatory to those who use pronouns as they understand them to mean biological sex. You are asking them to modify their own language, which is not offensive, to accommodate someone's new definitions. That is a problem.

                    • Shanreagh

                      In all of your responses you forget that this was an extended use. I have been in workplaces where people have been teased because of their accents, their mental health status, the fact that they played a musical instrument such as a violin, then the snide remarks directed to a young teen who 30 or so years later came out as gay. .

                      From my experience in many workplaces it is the extended use that is the point. The words used don't have to be included in a statute somewhere that makes them 'bad' to use.

                      I have dealt with complaints of constant so-called good natured teasing. Usually it is covered by a boss taking an employee aside and saying it has got to stop, now. Often the boss will set out the improvements sought and what may happen if use is continued. use. If the constant use of any word causes distress, it is not a mater of the person it is thrown at being told to 'toughen up'.

                      The fact is that this use is covered in Human Rights legislation in Canada is one thing.

                      My view is that even without this extra legislative 'gloss' a workplace is at risk of personal grievance here in NZ that allows an employee to use constant teasing at or about another that has the effect of harassing the other and making an unsafe workplace.

                      So deliberately using another's name incorrectly, commenting on hair colour, accent, constantly saying someone looks/dresses like a male, are you sure you are not a lesbian? That sort of thing.

                      As an HR practitioner I am pretty sure I could have run a successful personal grievance case for Jessie Nelson based on this constant 'teasing' and not needed the reference to the HR legislation. The processes used all the way through put this firm at risk of a successful case from an employee.

                      As always I put my view that the legislation around changing to be trans is deficient and anti woman. However this is not the point here.

                      The point here is that different legislation has said there is a breach of HR if a workplace is made unsafe for any employee. Human Rights breaches are one way, the more common way is by actions that are much less dramatic than invoking the HR legislation.

                    • Molly

                      @Shanreagh.

                      "In all of your responses you forget that this was an extended use. I have been in workplaces where people have been teased because of their accents, their mental health status, the fact that they played a musical instrument such as a violin, then the snide remarks directed to a young teen who 30 or so years later came out as gay. .

                      From my experience in many workplaces it is the extended use that is the point. The words used don't have to be included in a statute somewhere that makes them 'bad' to use."

                      No. I'm not forgetting, I'm balancing the preference of someone for a change of language, against someone's right to use language as it has been commonly used to denote biological sex. Of course, if I defend someone the right to use pronouns in this way, I'll defend that right to continue.

                      You ignore the fact that in your extended use, the words considered offensive by a person in the workplace (only in regards to pronouns): Already have an accurate, non-offensive meaning.

                      Despite the references to sexism, culture in the court transcript, the claim and the judgement relating to pronoun use and misgendering.

                      This is consistent with Bill C-16, which I disagree with.

                      Gay slurs are not the same. Once again, an analogy fail.

                      I have dealt with complaints of constant so-called good natured teasing. Usually it is covered by a boss taking an employee aside and saying it has got to stop, now. Often the boss will set out the improvements sought and what may happen if use is continued. use. If the constant use of any word causes distress, it is not a mater of the person it is thrown at being told to 'toughen up'.

                      Once again, this is not the same. Teasing is recognisable. Someone telling another worker to go and see if 'she' is finished, is just the existing use of the English language.

                      The fact is that this use is covered in Human Rights legislation in Canada is one thing.

                      My view is that even without this extra legislative 'gloss' a workplace is at risk of personal grievance here in NZ that allows an employee to use constant teasing at or about another that has the effect of harassing the other and making an unsafe workplace.

                      So deliberately using another's name incorrectly, commenting on hair colour, accent, constantly saying someone looks/dresses like a male, are you sure you are not a lesbian? That sort of thing.

                      Once again. Not the same thing. That is not the perception of offence by the victim, it is easily recognisable as the intention of the offender. With 'pronouns', the existing use of language for biological sex is rendered questionable and discriminatory. That is the problem.

                      Asking someone to change their non-offensive, common use of language to accommodate the preferences of someone else is offensive to me.

                      As an HR practitioner I am pretty sure I could have run a successful personal grievance case for Jessie Nelson based on this constant 'teasing' and not needed the reference to the HR legislation. The processes used all the way through put this firm at risk of a successful case from an employee.

                      Sadly, I think you probably could. Reinforcing my criticism of the legislation, and some practices of the HR profession.

                      As always I put my view that the legislation around changing to be trans is deficient and anti woman. However this is not the point here.

                      The point here is that different legislation has said there is a breach of HR if a workplace is made unsafe for any employee. Human Rights breaches are one way, the more common way is by actions that are much less dramatic than invoking the HR legislation.

                      No-one is made unsafe by the continued use of pronouns that refer to biological sex rather than individual pronouns.

                      Employees are 'unsafe' when compelled by their employers and HR to avoid common use non-offensive terms from the English language to avoid accusations of discrimination.

                      Employees are also 'unsafe' when legislation exists that makes those fears of their employers and HR departments credible.

                • Shanreagh

                  This legislation also makes it an offence to use accepted terms for biological sex in the workplace.

                  It is about the inability to use 'she' or 'her' when referring to a woman in the workplace. The usual terms that relate to women.

                  You have lost me……which legislation? NZ or Canadian. Citation please. I did not read that in the Canadian decision.

                  So everyone is their/they……as I said earlier in drafting policies etc in a workplace plus talking about workplace issues in a neutral but inclusive and non threatening way, I have used 'their' or 'they' so as to avoid having to use his/her.

                  So in the last 40 or so years…..are you seriously saying policy writers go back to she/her he/his and gaps that will be able to be slid through by those seeking to disadvantage women either inadvertently or deliberately.

                  ETA: It must be NZ legislation you are meaning as the decision maker in the Canadian case was at pains to place the pronouns after the name of each person when the name was first mentioned and then to use them appropriately.

                  • Shanreagh

                    I actually feel that to call someone the pronouns of another is sexist. So if someone kept calling me he/his against my wish to be she/hers then I would find that sexist and demeaning.

                    If my pronouns were they/their and people kept calling me he/his persistently I would find that insulting and cheeky.

                    In a workplace I might find it harassing and seek help.

                    So if the legislation provides for he/she/they and people are given the choice of which they prefer using and an offence is created when another set of pronouns is used to get a point across, to harass or minimise or because you cannot be bothered then this is sexism.

                    Not sure how long the Canadian legislation has been on the books. The preferred approach by our Human Right Commissioner has been educative at first. I would hope that if this type of legislation is introduced, or not, that there is a period of time for adjustment and education.

                    As an former HR manager/practitioner the Canadian case is appalling, not the verdict, but the bumble footed approach to all manner of HR people management actions that were exhibited by the employers.

                    • Molly

                      "I actually feel that to call someone the pronouns of another is sexist. So if someone kept calling me he/his against my wish to be she/hers then I would find that sexist and demeaning."

                      Of another… what?

                      Pronouns are already in use for biological sex. To ask someone to use it for a personal view of 'gender identity' instead should be a request, not a demand.

                      You would find that sexist and demeaning? After years of working towards women's equality in the workplace. I can't see how.

                      "If my pronouns we they/their and people kept calling me he/his persistently I would find that insulting and cheeky."

                      Good God. Insulting and cheeky. And they say feminism is dead.

                      "In a workplace I might find it harassing and seek help."

                      I'm guessing the help you would be seeking, is not the same as I would recommend.

                      "So if the legislation provides or he/she/they and people ae given the choice of which they prefer using and an offence is created when another set of pronouns is used to get a point across, to harass or minimise or because you cannot be bothered then this is sexism"

                      No it is not.

                    • Shanreagh

                      I give up. Again I am trying to illustrate by analogy.

                      The fact that I am a feminist in real life is neither here nor there in this particular exercise.

                      What I am doing is using an extended figure of speech to see if I could ponder a bit, turn the proposition on its head etc.

                      I still came to the conclusion that in a workplace with all the connotations of senior/junior, set in their ways against pushing forward that if a work colleague continually belittled me by either calling me names or deliberately miscalling my preferred pronouns that at the very least o at first I would talk to my boss about it.

                      I would perhaps mention a PG. If nothing was done I would talk again and also to the Union……it would go from there to a hearing eventually. Even without the Human Rights legislation as they have in Canada in NZ workplaces per Employment Tribunals are pretty intolerant of this sort of thing. If you were terminated/resigned per a constructive dismissal because the harassment got too much then this could lead to a payout and/or reinstatement though many would not want to go back.

                      I am hopeful that we are a bit further forward here than Canada as the workplace complained of seemed a bit archaic in its attitudes, some hospo ones here are also.

                    • Molly

                      @Shanreagh.

                      I give up. Again I am trying to illustrate by analogy.

                      Yes, and I am pointing out your analogies are flawed.

                      The fact that I am a feminist in real life is neither here nor there in this particular exercise.

                      You are right. It isn't. I am, however, hoping for clear statements, appropriate analogies and logic.

                      What I am doing is using an extended figure of speech to see if I could ponder a bit, turn the proposition on its head etc.

                      That is not working in terms of clarity.

                      I still came to the conclusion that in a workplace with all the connotations of senior/junior, set in their ways against pushing forward that if a work colleague continually belittled me by either calling me names or deliberately miscalling my preferred pronouns that at the very least o at first I would talk to my boss about it.

                      Yes. Because your view is that someone's view of gender identity is superior to the existing view of biology, and the use of language that denotes that accurately. I disagree.

                      I would perhaps mention a PG. If nothing was done I would talk again and also to the Union……it would go from there to a hearing eventually. Even without the Human Rights legislation as they have in Canada in NZ workplaces per Employment Tribunals are pretty intolerant of this sort of thing. If you were terminated/resigned per a constructive dismissal because the harassment got too much then this could lead to a payout and/or reinstatement though many would not want to go back.

                      I am hopeful that we are a bit further forward here than Canada as the workplace complained of seemed a bit archaic in its attitudes, some hospo ones here are also.

                      Personal Grievance? Then the union, and to the tribunal?

                      Because someone has the nerve to use language in reference to biology – rather than gender ideology?

                      That's harassment, too. But you are unable to see that.

                      Feminism comes in many forms. One that refers to 'incorrect' pronoun use as 'sexism' is one I have not come across before.

                      I guess you learn something new every day.

          • weka 13.4.1.4.2

            It wasn’t sweetheart, it was the diminutive sweetie. And it was a workplace not a couple talking to each other.

    • Puckish Rogue 13.5

      Its pretty clear to anyone thats watched a few of his lectures that his detractors (of which there are many) haven't watched any of his lectures, that they hear snippets taken out of context or they're told by someone else and just accept it

      However one thing I have noticed recently about this site (or rather the people on it) is theres almost a sort of movement towards the centre away from the hard left

      It might be coincidence but it also seems the more intelligent the commentator is the more likely they are to be moving towards the centre

      Or maybe the centre has moved

      • Psycho Milt 13.5.1

        I think it's not so much that as that there is a major schism developing between those on the left who remain materialists and rationalists, and those who've adopted post-modernist rejection of those things. I'm one of the former, so on some issues it looks like I have more in common with conservatives than with liberals (because conservatives can also be materialists and rationalists).

        • Puckish Rogue 13.5.1.1

          What do you think is causing this schism?

          • weka 13.5.1.1.1

            peak neoliberalism.

            • Molly 13.5.1.1.1.1

              Agree.

              From the top of my head, add hyper-individualism, loss of social structures, existential angst and over reliance on validation or information from social media.

          • Psycho Milt 13.5.1.1.2

            Peak neoliberalism is a pretty good contender. Postmodernism and queer theory play very well with people who see the individual as everything (which is what neoliberalism tells them). These philosophies encourage the belief that material reality counts for less than what the individual believes.

            The sleep of reason breeds monsters, so we're getting monsters, eg people who think they can just declare themselves to be the opposite sex or to have no sex at all, and the rest of us must accept this as a declaration of fact. Or that they can demand that we address them using words they've invented and we must comply. Worse, we're getting a lot of people on the left who find all that a good thing, because the individual is everything. It's a very neoliberal view of the world. It's neo-liberalism taken to ridiculous extremes.

            • Puckish Rogue 13.5.1.1.2.1

              My 13 year old neice has declared herself to be gender-neutral, sometimes shes a boy and sometimes shes a girl

              Its quite impressive considering I don't know what its like to feel like a boy and my wife can't explain what its like to feel like a girl

              • Molly

                Impressive, perhaps. Convincing, No.

                But I have taken some time to watch social media posts on gender ideology, and can understand the appeal at that time of life. It's an exciting concept and idea, and the detransitioner who posted a couple of weeks ago did a great job of explaining her journey, and the all encompassing nature of gender ideology in her life.

                https://lacroicsz.substack.com/p/by-any-other-name?utm_source=url&s=r

                Apologies for the long quote, but it's worth the read:

                A major aspect of Tumblr culture has always been social justice ideology. Things that are now being played out and witnessed by the general public on platforms like Twitter and TikTok, like dissociative identity disorder LARPers, demisexuals, neopronouns, otherkin, and everything you see on @LibsOfTikTok, have long existed in an uncannily identical form on tumblr.com. The oppression hierarchy of racial and gender identities now being written into law in many of our once serious nations was the state religion of the People’s Republic of Tumblr long before your political junkie uncle knew the term “CRT”. As cultish religions tend to operate, open devotion to the religion is mandatory. Perhaps the outsiders most likely to understand the way social dynamics worked on that website would be survivors of Scientology or the Jehovah’s Witnesses. On Tumblr, the situation was such that any claim to being “oppressed” would accumulate social credibility, while any unfortunate “privileged” status was justification for verbal abuse. As a “privileged” person, you were expected to constantly grovel and apologize, you had no right to speak on any issue involving the group you were “oppressing”, and you could not object in any way to any mistreatment hurled against you because of your race, gender, or sexuality.

                I found myself in a bit of a double bind. On one hand, I had found what felt like the perfect group of friends who understood me on an intuitive level, who I was able to talk to openly about the things I liked and made me “weird” in real life, but on the other hand I was a “cishet white girl” in an environment where that was one of the worst things to be. Since Tumblr users are mostly biological females, the “cishet white girl” holds the position of most privileged and therefore most inherently bad group. In this climate, you are made to feel guilty and responsible for all the horrors and atrocities in the world. No hardship you could possibly go through could ever be as bad as the prejudice and genocide POC and LGBT people face every. Single. Day. Insert clap emoji. LGBT people and POC can’t even walk out of their houses without being murdered by cishet white people just like you!

                Its understandable that any young person exposed to this kind of belief system would grow to deeply resent being white, “cis”, straight, or (biologically) male. The beauty of gender ideology is it provides a way to game this system, so that you can get some of those targets off your back and enjoy the camaraderie of like-minded youths. You can’t change your race, pretending to have a different sexuality would be very uncomfortable in practice, but you can absolutely change your gender, and it’s as easy as putting a “she/they” in your bio. Instantly you are transformed from an oppressing, entitled, evil, bigoted, selfish, disgusting cishet white scum into a valid trans person who deserves celebration and special coddling to make up for the marginalization and oppression you supposedly now face. Now not expected to do as much groveling and reaffirming to everyone how much you love checking your privilege, you can relax a little and talk about your life without wondering if you are distracting from the struggles of or speaking over marginalized groups, because you are marginalized too. With the new pronouns often comes a wave of positive affirmation from friends and followers, and the subconscious picks up quickly that there’s a way to make the deal of being on Tumblr even sweeter.

                • Puckish Rogue

                  That is interesting and its confirmed a few things I'd been thinking of

                  To me, saying you're gender-neutral or pan-sexual or any of the other minor labels (demi-sexual, gray-ace etc etc) is simply the easiest way to gain woke points and/or acceptance, praise simply just being told how brave you are

                  If you're one of the above (or similar type) you just have to give yourself a label and suddenly you have all the pluses with none of the minuses

                  Would it surprise you to know my niece has two moms, both highly placed in education circles…and yes she is also active on tumblr

                  • Molly

                    Would it surprise you to know my niece has two moms, both highly placed in education circles…and yes she is also active on tumblr

                    It doesn't surprise me that many young people are actively exploring their identity and choosing non-conformity (in a regimented way). That's the nature of adolescence and growing up. It is the anointing of the sacred class aspect of it by professionals and adults that is the concern, and the response of medical and surgical treatments that appalls. I also have trouble with socially transitioning children, but that's another conversation.

                    Checked out Tumblr when my daughter was interested in writing. Made no sense to me. Glad we avoided that pit. I visit occasionally to try and make sense of the immersion, and understand how appealing it would have been in my younger years.

                    The grooming nature of that appeal is obvious as an (much) older person.

                    • Psycho Milt

                      "It is the anointing of the sacred class aspect of it by professionals and adults that is the concern, and the response of medical and surgical treatments that appalls."

                      That's the big one. Liberals are actively promoting this to children. Unfortunately, it's no surprise at all to hear the people involved in this instance are in the education system.

              • weka

                teens like to push boundaries and experience. The problem has been that so many teens were left to their own devices on Tumblr and now they're socialised in ways that we're not really equipped to handle as a society. Adults have dropped the ball on this imo. There's nothing wrong with girls explored gender non-conformity. There's a huge problem with them being told that it's normal to cut off breasts and take drugs for the rest of your life. Or that being female is bad/wrong.

                • Molly

                  The high proportion of those on the autistic spectrum adopting this worldview, is also of concern.

                  It would be a good research paper.

                • Puckish Rogue

                  Thats my big worry I guess.

                  If it stays as a phase and is just gender-neutral then basically its no big deal

                  If it moves onto something else though…

                • Psycho Milt

                  This, so much this.

        • Anker 13.5.1.2

          Psycho Milt, I agree. I use to consider myself left wing, but I don't know what that means anymore.

          I consider myself someone who believes in science and the gender ideology movement is not based in material reality, but is some sort of belief system ie. that gender identity trumps biological sex.

          If someone looks male and wants to be referred to as she/her, this goes against everything we expect. There are very important reasons why women need to be able to distinguish between males and females.

          • Hongi Ika 13.5.1.2.1

            I call myself a Democratic Socialist niether Right Wing nor Left Wing, I believe in honest hard work and fair pay. I also have a social conscience where by we need to look after the lower socio-economic groups, the sick, the aged and the mentally ill.

          • RedLogix 13.5.1.2.2

            May I suggest broadening the framing of this issue to include both sexes. It is my understanding that gender dysphoria is occurring at roughly similar rates in both male and females, and that while the details and social dynamics of each category will be different, there is likely a common underlying common cause worth examining.

            You are not on your own, there are many people who consider themselves left wing yet no longer have a political home. A pervasive materialism strips post-modern politics of any sense of inspiration, intellectual humility or any vision beyond a base drive to factional power.

            Everyone has the right to investigate and determine their own path of truth. Mine passes through the idea that a healthy society is a woven, interdependent melding of the individual, the community and the state. And that what is in a person's heart is far more important than any of their external features – that there is in truth just one planet and all of humanity it's citizens.

            • Anker 13.5.1.2.2.1

              Agree about the broadening of the issues to talk about trans men.

              4000% increase in young women presenting as transgender and most likely it is ROGD. Social contagin a big factor in this, like it was/is with eating disorders and self harm. These young women are very very vulnerable. The dominant demand from LBGT gender ideologists is the automatic compliance and acceptance of the persons gender identity. And the ability to access gender affirming health care i.e medical transitioning is one of the demands. Some people think the conversion practices bill real intent was to make it criminal for parents and or some counsellors not to comply with automatic affirmation.

              Transwomen requirements to be treated as real women creates all sorts of problem for women, eg. women's private spaces such as change rooms, girls only instititions such as girl guides, women's prisons and women's sport.

              Currently there is a transwoman Lia Thomas, in the US who is breaking records and winning competitions swimming in the womens category. Lia when she was William swimming in the mens competition came 264th. Oh yes and Lia now changes in the girls swim change room. Women are being gas lite over this issue

              • RedLogix

                It is a classic case of the Emperors New Clothes. Everyone knows this Lia Thomas is nothing but a low cheat, but everyone will pretend until finally the right voice at the right moment speaks up.

                We aren't there yet.

            • Psycho Milt 13.5.1.2.2.2

              It's true that gender dysphoria affects both sexes, but Anker's point applies:

              "There are very important reasons why women need to be able to distinguish between males and females."

              In short: men are a threat to women in a way that women are not a threat to men.

              • RedLogix

                That is what I had in mind when I said the details and social dynamics of each category will be different,

              • Shanreagh

                This is so true and why I remain concerned at being forced to accept this silly 'black is white except when it is red or green' birth certificate approach.

                The workplace issue for me is down a level.

                Women for their own safety, and the safety of the children they are most/more likely to have with them at any one time, means that I too support Anker and Pyscho Milt:

                Anker: There are very important reasons why women need to be able to distinguish between males and females.

                Pyscho Milt: In short: men are a threat to women in a way that women are not a threat to men.

      • Molly 13.5.2

        Watched a few of his lectures, and (skim) read a couple of his books, because I had some young men living with us who admired him. Still do have, just different young men.

        I thought that the processes for legislation in Canada would have avoided the result that he predicted. Commentators (often lawyers), which he was not, wrote articles and gave interviews about how the bill would definitely not result in prosecution for the use of the wrong pronouns because the threshold for hate would be too high.

        I gave authority to those voices, rather than Jordan Peterson, because they were involved in the profession. I should have thought to give some weight to the fact he was living in Canada and experiencing the impact of the prelude to such legislation first hand. I don't know if I would give extra consideration to Jordan Peterson in regards to legal interpretation, but I know my expectation and trust in the legislative process is vastly diminished.

        Any legislation that is passed intact, and ignoring identified problems, is a failure of legislators and deserves censure.

        • Shanreagh 13.5.2.1

          I don't think it is about pronouns exclusively. It is also about weaponising or deliberately not using the correct pronouns…not once by mistake but several times and where it has had some intervention by employers to ensure that this did not continue that was ignored..

          So someone back in the 1970s in your workplace who deliberately used your married name and Mrs, time and again when you had officially decided to keep your maiden name and and add Ms is guilty of the same harassment. Someone who deliberately had to add a Miss, Ms. Mrs, Mr when you had asked to be called say Judy Jones or someone who changed their name by Deed Poll from Robyn Jones to Robin Jones without a salutation and who then gets mail from their work place with salutation of Miss and using female Robyn, or Dear Miss Jones.

          Doing it once may be a mistake or unfamiliarity with word processing nuances but continually sounds a bit like what was happening to Jessie Nelson. Their choice of how they wanted to be addressed or referred to was substituted or ignored not once by mistake but often by people who did not respect this choice. Hard not to think that this was deliberate.

          • Molly 13.5.2.1.1

            "Doing it once may be a mistake or unfamiliarity with word processing nuances but continually sounds a bit like what was happening to Jessie Nelson. Their choice of how they wanted to be addressed or referred to was substituted or ignored not once by mistake but often by people who did not respect this choice. Hard not to think that this was deliberate."

            Once again, that comparison with salutations is wrong, because it would not meet the threshold of a crime or offence. Even when deliberate.

            As above, the more accurate comparison is between a held belief, and a requirement for external validation.

            "A comparable example is requiring a person to refer to a priest as Father, when they do not subscribe to your religion. It is a courtesy to do so, but not a crime or offence not to.

            Do you understand the difference?"

            • Shanreagh 13.5.2.1.1.1

              Once again you are showing that you are not catching my use of analogy.

              I am not saying that the persistent demeaning use of names used wrongly, salutations used wrongly is of the same ilk legislation-wise as pronouns used wrongly in the Canadian case. What I am saying is that they were analogous ie similar.

              In fact had we had the same sort of ability then to take a personal grievance/Employment Tribunal case against this sustained & deliberate use of the original name that had since been changed by Deed poll then it could have had a similar result ie a payment.

              • Molly

                The use of a name by Deed Poll is not analogous because it doesn't use the same language that is already in use in a non-offensive way to denote biological sex.

                That is the pertinent point.

                By comparing it to a new name, or sexist terms, you have to continue to miss the point that the language deemed offensive is already in use in a common capacity that is not offensive.

          • Anker 13.5.2.1.2

            I think this is where Jordan Peterson is interesting. He talks about type 1 and type 11 errors.

            You can make the error of not using pro nouns because you suspect the person requiring them is being manipulative and want's to control/compel speech. Or you can alway use pro nouns giving people the benefit of the doubt.

            On this particular interview there was a really reasonable transwomen who said something like "I hope dr Peterson would use my pro nouns she/her if I was his student". The interviewer asked JP if he would use her pro nouns and without hesitation he said he would.

            I kind of feel the same. If someone attempts to compel me to do anything, I am likely to stand back and resist. If I have any hint that someone is trying to control and manipulate me, then I'll would likely resist using pro nouns. If I thought they were making a geniune REQUEST then I would be happy to go along with it.

            • Shanreagh 13.5.2.1.2.1

              Many people in their Facebook/ work identities helpfully put their pronouns in and I would have no problem using them. The Canadian case was about weaponising things by deliberately and persistently not using them or any acceptable substitute.

              People with differences can have a really horrible time in workplaces because of 'just teasing'. Thankfully in most workplaces now there are remedies either in legislation if the teasing happens to be of a sexual or racial etc type, or from breaches of workplace policies leading on to action being able to be taken under Employment contracts.

              • Molly

                "People with differences can have a really horrible time in workplaces because of 'just teasing'."

                These are adults in the workforce, that are insulted by words that already have a specific meaning, and when used appropriately with that meaning in mind, are considered offensive by someone who has subverted that meaning.

                They are adults. Able to understand that other people are permitted to continue to use their language in a way that denotes their accuracy without the need to take offence.

                'She' is not offensive. 'Her' is not offensive.

                And when used to denote biological sex – as they have been for centuries before now – they are just accurate terms.

                It is compelled speech to require someone to change their accurate and inoffensive use of language, to meet someone's individual needs.

                • Sabine

                  Matt Welsh said something to the tune of 'You don't get to own your pronouns. And that is quite true. Pronouns are quite specific things really.

                  A pronoun is a word that is used instead of a noun or noun phrase. Pronouns refer to either a noun that has already been mentioned or to a noun that does not need to be named specifically.

                  And just for clarity, i believe that we live in a time where anything less then 100% submission to anything woke is considered offensive, literally akin to murder and must be stomped err cancelled out. The sky is now green, Eddie Izzard is now a She and Lia Thompson is stunning and brave.

                  • Molly

                    Yes, in the last couple of weeks I have been a TERF, and now transphobic. Hitting the accusation bingo card.

                    Good article on unherd that I guess many will never read, but there are some good points in it:

                    https://unherd.com/2022/03/the-liberal-case-against-pronouns/

                    Activists insist that it is just a way to be inclusive and polite — and in many cases that is clearly the intention. Yet the genuinely liberal position is to oppose pronoun declaration, and it is worth outlining this case in full given that most of us, at some point in the near future, will be faced with the choice between explaining our reasons for refusing or capitulating for the sake of an easy life.

                    When you ask someone to declare pronouns, you are doing one of two things. You are either saying that you are having trouble identifying this person’s sex, or you are saying that you believe in the notion of gender identity and expect others to do the same. As a species we are very well attuned to recognising the sex of other people, so, for the most part, to ask for pronouns is an expression of fealty to a fashionable ideology — and to set a test for others to do likewise.

                    Yet gender identity ideology is simply not a belief system that most people share. I do not identify as male; it’s a biological fact, as mundane as the fact that I’ve got blue eyes or that I’m right-handed. I am not here talking about gender dysphoria — those people who feel as odds with their sex and seek to adapt either through medical procedures or the way in which they present themselves — but rather the notion that we each have an inherent gender that has nothing to do with our bodies. This is akin to a religious conviction, and we would be rightly appalled if employers were to demand that their staff proclaim their faith in Christ the Saviour or Baal the Canaanite god of fertility before each meeting.

                    …A refusal to participate in these rituals need not be antagonistic, and most employers will be happy to hear your reasons. There is always the possibility that you could be accused of transphobia or hate, but this is simply part of the coercive strategy. For all the awkward conversations that might arise, there is nothing Right-wing about standing up to ideologues who insist on imposing their values onto everyone else.

                    • Anker

                      Molly that is the best explanation I have seen to the objection to people having to announce their pro nouns and requiring/coercing you to do so.

                      Thanks so much for all you posting on this. You articulate it so well

  14. Apparently there are 900 (yes nine hundred-see article) solar farms in the pipeline in the UK. My (educated) guess is that this is because solar is getting massively cheaper.

    The solar farm discussed in the article covers 1,120 hectares and will produce 500MW. While it will have some landscape effects, as discussed in the article, 300 massive wind towers producing 500MW would, IMHO, have considerably greater landscape effects. Think looking through a forest of wind-towers towards the Southern Alps when driving on the Canterbury Plains.

    NZ should be climbing on the solar farm bandwagon.

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/mar/05/light-or-blight-anger-rises-at-plan-for-britains-biggest-solar-farm?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other&fbclid=IwAR194CE-emlMg1PsKIh0PGm5vteeZFrS8yYjKrOJmiOSMKAWsdd8n9IusHw

    [this could be worthy of a stand-alone post given the CC report released last week]

  15. Anker 15

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/opinion/300532874/as-a-former-frontline-police-officer-watching-the-parliament-riot-made-me-cry

    An account of a former police officer on the frontline during the Springbox tour. She was trampled underfoot by protesters and recalls Molotov cocktails thrown at the police.

  16. dv 16

    See I ran an airline is going reduce all the airfares for the airline.

    (Actually all the taxes imposed by labour)

    No indication how the airline is able run with a lower collection of revenue.

    • Hongi Ika 16.1

      We are lucky Luxton is not running AIR NZ now he wouldn't know what to do, currently they are relying on Government hand outs from the Government.

  17. Adrian 17

    My take is that the move by governments to renewables is more about energy security than climate worries and this weeks events lend credence to that. It is also probably why spending a few billion on Marsden Point to upgrade it is money down the drain and better spent on Lake Onslow etc.

  18. Robert Guyton 18

    Has the latest iteration of the "scandal" claiming the PM's partner is to be/has been charged with drug trafficking oozed through anyone else social media platforms yet? Wildly overheated posts went round last night, and this response today addresses the dangers of the phenomenon.

    [deleted]

    Read the full post at:

    https://www.facebook.com/joey.trinder

    • Shanreagh 18.1

      Yes seen this on SM and it was on some of the placards at the protest.

    • DukeEll 18.2

      This stupid shit again. Clarke is not the brightest soul, fronting house moving show at the peak of the recent house price increases while your wife is in charge want great optics.

      but a drug tsar? And no one in a small place like Nz has any first hand knowledgeable at all? Complete bollocks

      but then I’m part of the conspiracy to cover it up so don’t take anything I say at face value

  19. Jenny how to get there 19

    The war in the Ukraine will be lost/won in Russia

    There is a new Cold War going on.

    This new Cold War is the cold civil war now “raging” inside Russia.

    …It is clear to everyone that a cold civil war is raging in Russia. The lines run not only within society as a whole, but often within an individual collective, a business or a family.

    …..there is a common denominator, a forbidden topic, a topic that concerns absolutely everyone.

    ….I said that war is bad and peace is good. In my naivete, I assumed there was nothing to argue about. …..

    A day after the start of the invasion of Ukraine, Ivan Velikanov stood up for peace on stage in the Russian city of Nizhny Novgorod. That resulted in immediate consequences for the star conductor.

    Beethoven and a peace speech get Russian conductor suspended

    • Jenny how to get there 19.1

      Russia's Civil Cold War heats up.

      The Kremlin has passed a new media law imposing 15 year jail terms for what it calls 'Fake News' about the war in the Ukraine. Including calling it a 'war'.

      ….Lawmakers passed amendments to the criminal code making the spread of "fake" information an offence punishable with fines or jail terms. They also imposed fines for public calls for sanctions against Russia….

      …President Vladimir Putin said the "special military operation" was essential to ensure Russian security after the United States enlarged the NATO military alliance to Russia's borders and supported pro-Western leaders in Kyiv.

      Russian officials do not use the word "invasion" and say Western media have failed to report on what they cast as the "genocide" of Russian-speaking people in Ukraine.

      Russia fights back in information war with jail warning

      Reuters

      • Jenny how to get there 19.1.1

        An electronic iron curtain has descended over Russia

        A number of independent Russian blogsites have been blocked. Independent broadcasters as well as foreign broadcasters have also been banned and stopped from broadcasting.

        The day the news died

        Here are all Russia’s independent media outlets banned, blocked, or shuttered in just the past few days

        6:49 pm, March 5, 2022

        Source: Meduza

        https://meduza.io/en/short/2022/03/05/the-day-the-news-died

        • Jenny how to get there 19.1.1.1

          Given the famed inventiveness of netizens I don't expect the new iron curtain to last as long as the old one.

          ….The Russian authorities are now blocking Meduza. We’re ready for this, but we need your help…..

          …..We and a handful of other outlets are accused of “disseminating information in violation of the law.” This attack on the free press is happening because the Kremlin has something to hide — because it has more in store. Put simply, we have been banned for reporting information from sources other than the Russian state itself, particularly when it comes to the invasion of Ukraine, which Roskomnadzor has made it unlawful to call either an invasion or a war.

          But Russia is at war with Ukraine. This war is an unprovoked act of aggression by the Russian state against the people of Ukraine. Meduza rejects any attempt to limit our freedom to report the truth about this conflict or any other subject. The Russian authorities can try to stop the public from seeing our journalism, but they will fail. We have prepared for this….

          ….There’s one challenge for which we are not prepared, however. Ninety percent of the donations we receive come through the payment systems Stripe and PayPal. Our readers in Russia want to keep supporting us, but now their bank cards are being rejected… [Thanks for nothing Biden]

          …..Since Meduza launched in English, our website has gained millions of unique views. Our Russian-language edition’s audience is vastly larger still, and your support is essential to maintaining both projects. Financial uncertainty in Russia means Meduza must turn to our readers around the world.

          To continue our work, we turn to you.

          We ain’t done yet

          11:44 pm, March 4, 2022

          Source: Meduza

  20. observer 21

    Luxon's speech today is strange.

    Not because he's promised tax cuts (complaining that National do that is like being shocked that water is wet). But because he's lumped everything in together. Property, transport, the works.

    Now I could be wrong but I haven't noticed marchers chanting: "What do we want? Reduce length of brightline test! When do we want it? Now!"

    Self serving opinion pieces by property investors, sure – representing a tiny percentage of voters. But essentially Luxon is betting on some hidden public appetite for reversing all the moves since 2017. There isn't any.

    In fact, the opposite. Voters want more action, not less:

    https://www.1news.co.nz/2022/01/31/three-quarters-of-kiwis-want-house-prices-to-fall/

    https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2022/02/newshub-reid-research-poll-finds-majority-kiwis-back-government-revisiting-capital-gains-tax.html

    • Incognito 21.1

      Maybe they’re just looking for what sticks best/most? In other words, this is like a giant focus group ‘interview’, as they all are, to prepare for next year and sharpen the pens, so to speak. The Nats are in perpetual campaign mode, even when they’re in Government, as they all are. Donations come in and probably more so when the party rises in the polls – people like to support ‘winners’. What better time than when the incumbents are under a lot of pressure.

    • Jester 21.2

      I agree with Luxon that the tax brackets need to be adjusted. $70k was a "rich prick" income back in 2008? In fact I would rather receive more income in my hand via a tax cut, than have my gross wage rate increased from $20 an hour to $21.20 an hour. Then my boss would not need to increase the price of the food we sell as his wage bill would not increase to avoid the inflationary effect.
      https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300533600/nationals-christoper-luxon-focuses-on-the-rising-cost-of-living-argues-for-tax-cuts

      • observer 21.2.1

        That's what National's leader would be expected to propose, and was already Bridges' policy from 2019. He could have left it there and got the headline he wanted.

        But adding in all the other stuff doesn't win votes, as I pointed out. In fact, it only leads to follow-up questions, as in that Stuff link:

        "He said proceeds from the Auckland fuel tax were not being spent in its entirety, but wouldn’t say what transport projects should be cut if that tax was removed."

      • Tricledrown 21.2.2

        $20 a week barely more than a block of cheese at a time inflation is out of control and govt debt needs to be repaid.

        Hospitals and the health system could do with that money.

        • Jester 21.2.2.1

          Yes and increasing the minimum wage will increase that inflation even more which is why an adjustment to tax brackets IMO is much better.
          I would even go zero % on the first 10k of income and there’s $20 a week extra already, plus adjust other brackets.

    • Hongi Ika 21.3

      Tax Cuts. should get Luxton and National over the line, it worked for John Key

    • joe90 22.1

      Locally issued cards may continue to work internally but bad luck if you're a visitor or a Russian abroad.

      Mastercard and Visa said they would suspend operations in Russia, essentially severing cardholders there from transactions outside the country in response to the invasion of Ukraine.

      The suspensions announced on Saturday evening will prevent Mastercards and Visa cards issued by Russian banks from working in other countries and block people with cards issued elsewhere from purchasing goods and services from companies in Russia.

      https://archive.ph/IfoJy (nty)

  21. tsmithfield 23

    Here is probably the best video I have seen on the background to this war, and why Putin has already lost.

    Well worth a watch.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQ4hvLqNfqo

    • weston 23.1

      Agree with the guy the war needs to end and sooner the better but the vid entirely leaves out ukrainians have been fighting a fairly brutal civil war for nearly ten years non stop and the jingoism is loud on both sides .Blood has been spilt so retribution will be sought because violence begets violence .All things considered this vid is a fairly shallow effort imo .

      • tsmithfield 23.1.1

        I agree the situation is a lot more complex. But probably only so much can be covered in a video of its length.

  22. Peter 24

    Protesters re-emerge at Government House, call for Parliament to be dissolved

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/wellington/127970712/protesters-reemerge-at-government-house-call-for-parliament-to-be-dissolved

    I wonder how they'd take it if others arrived down there and told them to bugger off like they told reporters and others to bugger off when they claimed part of Wellington in the party couple of weeks.

    • observer 24.1

      Great quotes of our times:

      "Government House spokeswoman Nerina Bennett confirmed Governor-General Dame Cindy Kiro had no plans to dissolve Parliament as a result of the protest action."

      She then added "and why the f**k are you wasting my precious time on a Sunday asking me if the earth is flat, don't you have some actual news to report?", but fortunately that was not on the record.

  23. Puckish Rogue 25

    Cricket, cricket, cricket!

    Thoughts on the tests.

    Well its fast becoming clear that a couple of things that were quietly spoken now need to be spoken loudly.

    First problem is finding a reliable opening batter to partner Latham because Young is averaging 28 as an opening batter so keeping him in longer could wreck his confidence but at the moment the only reasonable candidate would be Conway to open and that would mean Williamson back in at 3, Nicholls to 4 and Young at 5

    Having said that it is really difficult to open in NZ but one of the things NZ cricket should be looking at is why we have 6 first class provinces yet only one decent opener.

    Next thing that is hurting NZ is A. the lack of all rounders and B. trying to artificially create all rounders

    Ravindra is not and probably will never be an all rounder, Jamieson probably won't either and De Grandhomme is a batting all rounder at best.

    This means we have Jamieson batting at 8 which is too high (test average 23, FC 19)

    By all means let Ravindra work on his bowling (lord knows we need all the spinners we can get) but he isn't an all rounder, in fact he opens for Wellington so better for him and NZ he concentrates on being a good opener.

    The opposite is true for Jamieson, let him concentrate on bowling, getting his speed into the high 130s consistently and it'll be better for NZ

    So if we're going to play De Grandhomme as an all rounder (and I was surprised how well he did when he came back) then we need a bowling all rounder to compliment him.

    Scott Kuggeleijn or Doug Bracewell would certainly be better options at 8 than Jamieson would plus Kuggeleijn normally bowls high 130s early 140s so he'd be my pick

    Our lack of spinning options is beginning to hurt NZ, sure Patel was injured but he probably wouldn't have been selected even if fit so the attack has a sameness to it

    South Africas spinners took 7 wickets and Bangladeshs took 4, so spinners can take wickets in NZ conditions and even if they don't they can still keep the scoring rate down

    However the coaches seem to have a blueprint they want to work from and will not deviate from this, which is no bad thing but we've all seen other teams where the coaches have their players they want to pick or remain loyal to players for too long

    Blundell should be batting at 7 (meaning De Grandhomme moves to 6) which means Mitchell is dropped which is a shame for him but then it was an odd selection given how little he was bowled, he couldn't have been used to tie up one end and let the fresher bowlers attack from the other?

    Because we have a weak opening line up and a suspect number 6 we simply can't afford to play 4 front line seamers who can bat a bit, we need variety in the attack and a shorter batting tail

    • Hongi Ika 25.1

      Not much lateral thinking in NZ Cricket, same old same old, hence Bangladesh & South Africa got it over them.

      • Puckish Rogue 25.1.1

        The NZ cricket board has done well to encourage quicker bowlers with better pitches but they still need to encourage more spinners as that'll always hold us back

        I'm not sure how, mandate a province or two to build spinners pitches maybe or create scholarships for spin bowlers possibly

        Go to Afghanistan or Bangladesh and encourage some young bowlers to emigrate

    • Hongi Ika 25.2

      Latham not going super good either.

      • Puckish Rogue 25.2.1

        Its really hard being a NZ opener, its a repost but its worth going over again:

        https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/sport/313836/nz's-openers-a-test-of-loyalty

        (Article from 2016 so add in Jeet Ravel, Tom Blundell and Devon Conway)

        *New Zealand's test openers in the last 20 years: Justin Vaughan, Bryan Young, Blair Pocock, Craig Spearman, Nathan Astle, Matt Horne, Matthew Bell, Roger Twose, Gary Stead, Mark Richardson, Mathew Sinclair, Adam Parore, Lou Vincent, Stephen Fleming, Brendon McCullum, Michael Papps, Craig Cumming, James Marshall, Jamie How, Hamish Marshall, Peter Fulton, Aaron Redmond, Tim McIntosh, Martin Guptill, Daniel Flynn, BJ Watling, Rob Nicol, Hamish Rutherford, Tom Latham.

        Basically its not easy being a NZ opener, of all those openers listed virtually all of them average 33 or lower.

        Even Bruce Edgar had an average of 31 when opening, for context John Wright averaged 38

        The standouts being Richardson at 45, McCullum at 40 (no really) and Latham at 43, also after 6 innings Conway is averaging 63

        • pat 25.2.1.1

          Richardson at 45?,,,,noooooo!

          • Puckish Rogue 25.2.1.1.1

            44.68 as an opener but I round the numbers (howstat is great to find out whats what)

            Heres a better balanced team

            1. Latham
            2. Conway (theres just no one else)
            3. Williamson
            4. Nicholls
            5. Young
            6. De Grandhomme/Mitchell: batting all rounders
            7. Blundell
            8. Kuggeleijn/Bracewell: bowling all rounders
            9. Jamieson/Wagner: third seamers
            10. Boult/Southee/Henry: new ball bowlers
            11. Patel/Sodhi: spinners
            • pat 25.2.1.1.1.1

              Which Latham? and I wasnt disputing Richardsons average…I was despairing

              And no Hadlee?

              • Puckish Rogue

                Well I'm thinking Rod might be a bit long in the tooth to still be playingso we'll go with Tom

                I think Hadlee can keep on enjoying a well deserved retirement

                (I’m only selecting current players)

                Ref: Mark Richardson, just goes to show how good he really was and how you can go from a number 10 FC batting position to legit being able to walk into most international test teams through perseverance and application and a sense of humour:

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbCLWvB09zE

                • pat

                  As you had Patel, Kuggeleign and Bracewell in there I assumed it was a best of history team….and those 3 shouldnt be there.

                  I havnt watched enough cricket in recent years to compare Tom to his old man but Rod had a very slow start so his average impacted…..but I wouldnt pick him as a test opener….one dayer he may be in the mix.

                  And no Mc Cullum or Vettori either……? what is the basis of your team selection?

                  P>S. sorry have just reread and see current players….there is a new Patel and bracewell???

                  • Puckish Rogue

                    Ajaz Patel (the guy that took 10 wickets in an innings recently), Scott Kuggeleijn and Tom Latham, McCullum is retired

                    The team selection is based on players that are currently still playing and therefore able to be selected for NZ, assuming injury free

                    It, imho, is a better balanced side than the one we have now with more variety in the bowling and greater batting depth in that we have a spinner, three seamers and a medium pacer and batting down to 8 rather than the 7 position we have now

                  • pat

                    Shame on me …Ajaz Patel took 10 against India….the name escaped me.

    • Not a word from Pucky on the Women's World Cup (for his information, currently being held in this country)!

      Now, I wonder why?

  24. SPC 26

    It would seem there is little transmission of the virus between those who are boosted.

    It's spreading amongst the young/children and others yet to get the booster.

    Those boosted still get it, just not so much from each other.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/boosted-vs-unvaxxed-how-does-omicron-infection-risk-compare/BIONGUBVW7HNHA74VBLGQOMWNM/

    • Tricledrown 26.1

      Thanks SPC for some good news on boosters 72% of the population boosted now.

      Hopefully that means that our peak will be low just like in Delta and Alpha.

      The herald article shows a boosted person is about 15 times less likely to get seriously ill ,get hospitalized or die.

      Very similar for 2 doses for Delta.

      Thanks again SPC.

      The average age of hospitalisations is still around 53 shows many younger people still getting seriously sick.

    • Cricklewood 26.2

      I'm not sure they should have made a headline out of that, it's a model with some self admitted major flaws.

  25. Cricklewood 27

    Gotta admit this is pretty funny

    https://twitter.com/i/status/1499599192141885443

  26. greywarshark 29

    Here is some Soviet history entwined with Poland that I have come across. For those who are trying to entangle the strands of Russian military action and why. It might open a window.

    https://www.theoldie.co.uk/blog/the-miracle-on-the-vistula-100-years-on

  27. joe90 30

    A Ukrainian organisation is developing a site to identify potential collaborators, spies and Russian servicemen participating in the invasion.They're matching downed Russian airmen with a data base of Russian airman known to have flown in Syria, too. I almost feel for any poor prick identified.

  28. weka 31

    Hipkins was apparently asked about border closures if there’s a worse variant. Saving to watch later

    https://www.tvnz.co.nz/shows/q-and-a/clips/chris-hipkins-on-nz-s-pandemic-future-as-omicron-rages

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