Open mike 06/10/2022

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, October 6th, 2022 - 87 comments
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Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

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Step up to the mike …

87 comments on “Open mike 06/10/2022 ”

  1. Molly 1

    Mermaids – the significantly influential transgender childrens' charity in the UK is being challenged on demonstrably inadequate safeguarding processes, and its direction towards medical interventions, even as they testify in court that they don't offer medical advice.

    (To indicate the reach, Susie Green (CEO) was part of the group writing the recently released WPATH Standards of Care, which removed minimum ages for medical interventions.)

    This scrutiny was in part increased bytheir decision to take the Charity Commission to court for granting charity status to the UK's LGB Alliance.

    Tribunal transcripts here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/mermaids-vs-lgb-alliance-and-the

    Many have raised concerns about Mermaids over the years, and been ignored by those who do not see problems by the simple expedient method of refusing to look.

    It is hard to give those who held positions of influence and responsibility any leeway for their intentional blindness. We have the same visual impairment here in NZ.

    If you want a peep at the succession of revelations regarding Mermaids, they are easily found, and will no doubt be added to. Go look if the wellbeing of children is a matter of interest to you.

    For now, Dennis Kavanaugh releases some of his disdain:

    https://dennisnoelkavanagh.substack.com/p/blood-in-the-water?r=g2cl7&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=email

    …Just as children have been used as validation objects for those who would never have surgery. Just as children have been used as a tactical wedge in the creation of this seasons must-have, the mythical and fashionable “trans kid”. Gender is the engine and children have been flung into its gears with abandon for years now.

    That is not in my nature and I ask people to reflect on the magnitude of what we are witnessing here. Society has been under a wicked spell for years. Mediocre little bureaucrats who organise genders and sexuality into 100 boring flags and identities pursued a campaign to allocate children to such categories and were prepared to countenance surgical correction if the child didn’t fit. These were in the main gay children, autistic children, children leaving or in care. Above all they were children.

    I can find no excuse or accommodation with those who cheered this on. This is the single most obvious medical scandal in human history. An open air live experiment where the gender brog were contemporaneously told in detail exactly what was wrong. These serious and heartfelt objections were met with the tactics of the Stasi or Gestapo. By cancellations. By character assassinations. Dr. David Bell. Sonia Appleby. Transgender trend. The LGB Alliance. All castigated, marginalised, forced to court by a vicious monster which believed itself to be beyond and above question or scrutiny.

    • Anker 1.1

      Thanks Molly. The quotes say it all.

      "children have been used as validation objects for those who would never have surgery"

      "society has been under a wicked spell for years"

      "I find no excuse or accommodation with those who cheered this on". Labour MPs at the select committees (and Jan Tineti) who on current polling look set to loose their seats (unfortunately this will not be the case for Deborah Russell)

      • Visubversa 1.1.1

        And stunning last sentences.

        "Gender will collapse in three stages. The flight of the cowards. The howls of the zealots. The prosecution of the monsters.

        Welcome to stage one. The flight accounts for the silence on the battlefield today."

        The NZ media are nowhere to be seen on this. They are too busy showering female pronouns on violent male offenders.

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  3. Jenny are we there yet 3

    Kill! Kill! Kill!

    Tears of rage and demands to kill any Western leaders supporting Ukraine.
    As well as advocating capital punishment for Russian troops who retreat or surrender.

    How Russian state media responds to Russian military setbacks in Ukraine.

    ……Prominent experts routinely featured on Kremlin-controlled state television roundly reject the mere idea of negotiations, and none of them dare suggest Russia’s withdrawal from Ukraine in order to end the war. Instead, they’re doubling down—and proposing to kill leading Westerners in charge of helping Ukraine defend itself from the Russian invasion…..

    ….Satanovsky, who serves as the president of Russia’s Institute of the Middle East after heading the Russian Jewish Congress, replied: “Russia is what it is, in terms of a nation. We’ll continue to be the way we are. Those who are with us will be fine and the rest we will kill…

    …..

    Andrey Sidorov, deputy dean of world politics at Moscow State University, wholeheartedly agreed, noting that in light of Russia’s recent annexations, the war is now happening on what they consider to be a territory of the Russian Federation. Sidorov stressed: “Now these are our defeats, we’re fighting on our land. Why should we show any mercy to those who are directing this war?”

    Humiliating failures on the battlefield are indeed at the core of Russia’s desperate attempts to redirect rage at NATO for helping Ukraine fight the invasion.

    Appearing on the state TV program 60 Minutes on Tuesday, war correspondent Alexandr Sladkov nonchalantly admitted that Ukrainians have been able to retake 17 settlements—and counting. Sladkov also told a stunned host Olga Skabeeva that Russian forces are at least two months away from even attempting to advance, due to lack of manpower and the time it will take to train newly-mobilized reinforcements. train.

    Devastated by the failing conquest in Ukraine, state TV host Vladimir Solovyov admitted he was in a foul mood and advocated the restoration of the death penalty, in order to execute those who dare to retreat, surrender or desert….

    …..Appearing on the same show, TV host Boris Korchevnikov broke down in tears, accusing those who don’t want to die in Russia’s war of being “a zero, decay and garbage.” While the despondent propagandist wept live on-air, urging others to join the battle, he didn’t express any desire to do so himself.

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/putin-crony-says-he-drafted-russian-kill-list-of-western-officials/ar-AA12DNQ9

    • mikesh 3.2

      Tears of rage and demands to kill any Western leaders supporting Ukraine.
      As well as advocating capital punishment for Russian troops who retreat or surrender.

      I'm inclined to agree. Russia would be better off “playing the nuclear card” than employing those policies. However Russia is a different country, with a different history, traditions and geography from ours. I believe you are being somewhat ethnocentric in judging her by our traditions.

      • joe90 3.2.1

        I believe you are being somewhat ethnocentric in judging her by our traditions.

        Yup, best not judge Russia's tradition of genocidal colonialism.

        /

        https://twitter.com/maksymeristavi/status/1574139953440751616

        https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1574139953440751616.html

        https://www.eki.ee/books/redbook/introduction.shtml

      • Jenny are we there yet 3.2.2

        WMDs Weapons of Mass Destruction are misnamed. They are weapons of mass murder, they are tools of genocide. No need to bother with cattle cars and concentration camps. Nuclear weapons can kill millions in less time with less effort.

        The use of nuclear weapons is a war crime and an act of genocide. The Tokyo war crimes tribunal judges fell into disunity and acrimony over the refusal of the US prosecutors to bring charges against the US authorities for the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

        Mikesh claims Russia would be better off to use nuclear weapons.

        Mikesh personifying Russia as 'her', argues that a difference in 'traditions', is the reason for Russia's death threats against Western leaders, and nuclear weapons threats against Ukraine.

        "…Russia would be better off “playing the nuclear card” than employing those policies. However Russia is a different country, with a different history, traditions and geography from ours. I believe you are being somewhat ethnocentric in judging her by our traditions." Mikesh

        Assassination and nuclear threats are the result of different Russian traditions?

        Give it a rest Mikesh.

        Mikesh you might as well argue that the holocaust was a result of different German traditions.

        Their leaders may be genocidal megalomaniacs but I don't think that the German people or the Russian people are that different to us, in that they consider genocide to be traditional to their history.

        I reject Mikesh's accusation that I am being ethnocentric. I am being human centric. I judge Russia not be western values, but by human values.

        • mikesh 3.2.2.1

          Mikesh you might as well argue that the holocaust was a result of different German traditions.

          I would not argue that because I don't think it was.

          And while I don’t count myself an expert on the subject of nuclear weapons, I understand there are more limited forms of such weapons.

          I don’t think there is such a thing as “humancentric”. At least not unless you have something against animals.

  4. Anne 4

    A good synopsis by Morgan Godfrey re – the falling poll numbers for Labour:

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/opinion/130081688/morgan-godfery-labour-has-forgotten-what-made-2020-possible

    “But the chief problem for Jacinda Ardern and her Government is that they’ve seemingly forgotten how to do politics.

    I agree with that. Whether its tiredness after a bruising few years, or whether they have become a little too complacent I don’t know. A mix of both?

    But they do seem to have lost their way a bit and, imo, they are too gun-shy. Its time they seriously reconsidered the CGT – set up a nation-wide debating chamber if necessary to counter the politically motivated opposition. And they need to start showing a much greater commitment to Climate Change. These are two of the serious problems facing the country but there are plenty more.

    Nice words and “kindness” are not – on their own – cutting it any more. More action on the front line is needed.

    • Incognito 4.1

      Nice words and “kindness” are not – on their own – cutting it any more.

      I agree, and add nice speeches to this, whether here or overseas; they’re simply fodder for Google and YouTube and will be forgotten soon otherwise. Nobody remembers a nice person saying nice things, but they do remember nice acts, i.e., a nice gesture combined with nice words, as long as it is genuine. Unfortunately, though, many people have become hardened, cynical, and closed up; even genuinely good acts are perceived with distrust, and shoulder shrugs at best and with outright hostility and venom at worst.

      • Anne 4.1.1

        … many people have become hardened, cynical, and closed up; even genuinely good acts are perceived with distrust, and shoulder shrugs at best and with outright hostility and venom at worst.

        And the hostility and venom is winning the day. To be honest, I don't know how the government counters this phenomenon. Its typical right-wing style messaging made popular by Cameron Slater and co. and it works. When you have an MSM who seem to turn the other way and let them get away with it without proper appraisal then what can the government do about it?

        • kat 4.1.1.1

          Unfortunately for this Labour govt they are fighting on two fronts. On one front they are consumed in running the country through very volatile times, on the other front they are constantly having to defend themselves from aggressive opposition attacks under the guise of "being held to account" and a media that revels in point scoring gotcha politics.

          Jacinda is going to have to start showing her warrior side more and wack off a few heads with her sword in the lead up to next years election. Doing that in her trade mark kindly style is the challenge.

        • Incognito 4.1.1.2

          Contrary to popular belief, the Government cannot and does not make rain nor sunshine. This is a mini-Zeitgeist, IMO, a state of (hive) mind of humankind, at least in the Western nations that are now experiencing stronger economic (and social!) headwinds – mirroring the changes in climate & weather patterns that show us that CC is as real as day & night and already happening right now. On a smaller and more local scale, even smug homeowners in NZ feeling ‘the pressure’ with falling house prices, increasing interest rates, and increased cost of living. I can go on, but you’ll get my drift – not the message that people want to hear and thus not the message MSM will tell.

          • Anne 4.1.1.2.1

            Spot on. Sad. Because it only makes the going one hell of a lot tougher for everyone.

    • Anker 4.2

      Agree Anne. I expect exhaustion plays a role in this. I do have some sympathy for them as they have had to face so much.

      But in my opinion another three years of this govt and things will only get worse. Society will be even more divided. And they are only tinkering re making significant change to address issues like inequality.

      I am thinking more and more about voting TOP. Their tax policy makes sense to me.

      Things to like the cost of living payment, a knee jerk one off reaction, look clumsy and vote grabbing and of course they ended up with egg on their face when money got paid out to NZders overseas.

      • Tony Veitch 4.2.1

        But in my opinion another three years of this govt and things will only get worse. Society will be even more divided.

        Just like America's version of Luxon (Donald Trump) united that country?

        Anyone who thinks that things will somehow magically get better under the Natz and Act is living in La-La-Land.

        • Peter 4.2.1.1

          The first leaders debate on tv at before the last US Presidential election. Their first statements, the line on what they were all about. At the beginning on the achievements of his term? Trump saw his prime achievement as the number of judges he'd appointed.

          From the outset Biden talked about unifying the country.

          How did that work out? Well, Trump got booted out, cried like a baby he and his supporters went crazy and said the resultant turmoil was down to Biden & Co creating division.

          Here? Under National housing problems flourished, there was a veritable crisis they wouldn't call a crisis, there was instead a "Comprehensive Housing Plan and people were put up in motels. Labour got in, suddenly there was housing crisis and the only way it will be sorted is to have a National government.

          • Belladonna 4.2.1.1.1

            "Trump saw his prime achievement as the number of judges he'd appointed."

            Given the changes those supreme court justices have already made to the legal fabric of the US, and the fact that there will be a right-leaning supreme court for decades (based on the age of the current appointees) – he was not wrong.

            Appointing the socially conservative justices to the supreme court was one of the most powerful long term actions he could make.

            Laws can be changed. Judges remain until they die.

          • Anker 4.2.1.1.2

            I am not sure the US is anymore United under Biden, but I am open to others views on this.

            Re Luxon, do people really imagine he would incite people to storm parliament a la 06/01, He had his chance in February and yet he would not even meet with parliament protestors.

            I suspect many people who are on this site and do not visit other sites eg The Daily Blog have no idea how angry people (including those on the left) are about a raft of Govt policies including Three Waters, Co-Governance, Mandates, welfare policies (lack of them) housing and many more.

        • Anker 4.2.1.2

          I don't considermyself living inla la land, nor do I things will become magicallybetter under Luxon.

          I think comparing Luxon (who I am no great fan of) to Trump is drawing a wide bow really.

          • Stuart Munro 4.2.1.2.1

            Agreed – Luxon is wrong, cynical, backward-looking, acharismatic and otherwise worse than useless. But he is not a corrupt demagogue that would cheerfully incite an insurrection to retain power – at least thus far.

          • Tony Veitch 4.2.1.2.2

            All the 'ills' of our society, except covid and inflation (which is global) were hatched or nurtured under the last Natz/Act government.

            This government, though far from perfect and nowhere as radical as I would like, has done a damn fine job of tackling these 'ills.'

            Trump was/is a bumbling incompetent who divided the USA. Frankly, I don't think Luxon is any better.

      • Nic the NZer 4.2.2

        Problem with voting tax policy of TOP is your basically voting for their major coalition partners actual tax policy (if your vote counts). I doubt TOP would refuse coalition based even on a minimum progressive change in income tax. IMO National will wangle an increase in GST to go along with their top tax rate giveaways, and blame TOP for negotiating "fiscal neutral" and then the media will basically cover over this regressive tax policy even though its adding insult to injury in policy terms. Its a question for TOP which phrase holds more weight, fiscally neutral or progressive.

        • Anker 4.2.2.1

          Nic TOP have previously said they would sit on the cross benchers. they may of course havechanged their position. That is one of the things I will be waiting to hear about. But I do take your point that a vote for TOP could be a vote for either National or Labours tax policy

          Your comments about National and GST are purely speculative. Of course its fine to speculate, but not the strongest arguement.

          • Nic the NZer 4.2.2.1.1

            Parties on the cross-benches have little to no influence on tax policy.

            And its not only speculation. It's the element National and TOP (+Gareth Morgan) agree on "fiscal neutrality" with National having form.

    • swordfish 4.3

      .
      What’s behind the Govt’s fall from grace ?

      (1) Cost of living + (2) Covid shine suddenly fading (putting spotlight back on Govt’s core weaknesses/failures) + (3) Woke excesses/extremism [esp the attacks (largely by stealth until forced into the open) on the fundamentals of liberal democracy] + (4) Law/order.

    • Nic the NZer 4.4

      Re: Forgot how to do politics + CGT

      I think this is an example of forgetting how to do politics. Right now the govt has introduced an effective CGT with the 10 year bright-line test. In fact they have done it so stealthily that a large number of CGT advocates didn't notice and keep calling for a CGT to be implemented.

      You will note that TOPs recent land tax policy position talks about replacing the bright-line test. Key described the bright-line test as being a CGT (though his govt kept it at 2 years). Robertson has alluded to this being a CGT in effect. Insiders know that this is another name for the same thing.

      I'm fine with the CGT policy BTW, however I believe the interest deduction changes were far more significant in discouraging property speculation as a savings vehicle behavior. I just don't think there is a significant difference with the bright-line test and don't see the name of the policy as an important political battle to be had.

      • Anne 4.4.1

        Thanks to all those who have commented since my contribution @ 4. A lot of food for thought among them. I do hope the Labour luminaries are reading…. cool

  5. Why don't Labour shoot out the campaigns of the Nats and Act by initiating their own tax rate levels review?

    If they did this and either left the high rates untouched or increased them it leaves the Nacts only able to advance an argument for the moving, lowering, the tax rates on the higher salary levels. Somehow I think if the lower salary levels are looked after people are able to resist any policy changes giving windfall gains such as an extra $18,000 to those on the same salary levels as Luxon

    • bwaghorn 5.1

      I can't understand why labour refuses to index the tax brackets to wage inflation, ?

      • mikesh 5.1.1

        Changing tax brackets doesn't take into account the fact that in an inflationary situation monies paid to the government by way of taxation are worth less, in real terms, than before. If the rate of inflation is zero a progressive tax system works exactly as it is meant to work, so there would be no need to alter thresholds.

        • mikesh 5.1.1.1

          Note to moderator: I have now amended the username on my browser and re-submitted the comment. I apologize for the mistake. Would you please delete my previous comment(s).

      • Herodotus 5.1.2

        Because they cannot see that, they the government are part of the cause and contributing to the cost of Living crisis. Everyone earning over $14,000 are paying more % in tax and as a consequence having less to cover the essentials. And when Labour previously noticed the consequences, our then Finance Minister went all nasty and cancelled his adjustments to the tax brackets.

        • lprent 5.1.2.1

          Wasn't that the "block of cheese" taunt by National that caused him to do that? In effect they were arguing that bacause inflation had been small then doing the corresponding small increments for lower tax brackets were too small to be bothered with.

          In the end National gave massive tax cuts to the affluent and a even smaller pittance to anyone whose income was mostly in lower tax brackets – ans who were more affected by inflation.

          The touted increases in productivity from tax cuts for the affluent never happened because it was either spent in taking money offshore for holidays or speculating in propery prices.

          • Herodotus 5.1.2.1.1

            So what about the taunt. The Clarke government were so miserable that they then allowed their emotions to takeaway $$ from needy deserving families. Find any excuse to distract away from the issue. Its was Nationals fault what a f#$%en pathetic excuse, Labour DON'T take ownership of THEIR actions – and it is still having an effect.

            And I din't even comment on the GST effect that has meant more tax take and increasing what families are STILL suffer. Labour IS accountable in part for this Cost of Living crisis, and our Min of Finance tells us how good the govt books are,pity he cannot or does not want to see who is paying the cost for his moment on the pedistool !!!

          • mikesh 5.1.2.1.2

            According to Maslow people are not much motivated by money once they reach a certain level of income, so tax cuts would not probably not motivate the wealthy to greater efforts. Greater productivity is more likely to come from more investment and/or lower interest rates.

      • Incognito 5.1.3

        Labour wants to know more about the ‘invisible’ money and create a fairer tax system.

        https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2022/06/issue-with-nz-s-tax-system-isn-t-where-bands-sit-david-parker-says-as-national-pushes-for-inflation-adjustment.html

        https://www.beehive.govt.nz/speech/shining-light-unfairness-our-tax-system

        Besides, tax is not the only government income stream, as it can also generate income through investment, which it does already to some extent.

      • Mat Simpson 5.1.4

        I cant understand why at a time of severe destitution and crippling cost of living pressures Robertson wants to concentrate on a surplus.

        " "Our priority … is investing in public services and investing in infrastructure and supporting New Zealanders by getting ourselves back to surplus "

        Well that has been their approach but its clearly not enough and it seems the polls are reflecting this.

        He is right by attacking Aloha Air Luxon's top tax rate cut which seems the Nasty Natz answer to everything wrong in the economy. Give the struggling rich more of their money back.

        https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/476167/finance-minister-grant-robertson-says-national-s-top-tax-rate-cut-does-not-add-up

        [Can you please stick to one user name here or explain why there are two different names coming from the same account – Incognito]

        • Incognito 5.1.4.1

          Mod note

        • Incognito 5.1.4.2

          I now see that I’ve modded you before for the exact same thing: https://thestandard.org.nz/the-benefits-of-arderns-recent-overseas-trips/#comment-1898483.

        • Mat Simpson 5.1.4.3

          Yes I forget about my two online names and realised only after I went back to check.

          ” I now see that I’ve modded you before for the exact same thing

          Yes well picked up.

          My apologies.

          Mat Simpson

        • lprent 5.1.4.4

          We live in a country that is susceptible to shocks.

          Earthquakes, storms, floods, imported terrorism, imported inflation, imported disease, external trade risks, aging population, warfare, trade disruptions and any number of other issues.

          Each of these risks could cause widespread disruption and massive increases in destitution if not handled. Things like tent cities in ChCh fro decades after an earthquake, insane Aussie racists on vacation shoots, massively high plague jobless or death rates, or Nationals timid GFC response throwing people out of work and a 6 year recession etc.

          These are handled by a mixture of stored funds like EQC or the Cullen Fund, or by the government having the capacity to borrow because they have kept dropping debt levels after previous unpredictable expenses.

          So which of these many prudent measures to prevent really massive destitution from disasters are you going to cut now? So that you can provide to provide support for a much much smaller population of people who are destitute now.

          Bear in mind the significant resources are already made towards limiting destitution already. Things that have immediate or indirect reductions of potential destitution like superannuation, schooling, health or housing support payments, flooding defences, roading and transport (as that reduces delivery markups on goods in remote areas) etc etc. If you ever total these up you will find that they account for the vast majority of the government budget.

          I look forward reading your unplanned and incoherent magic money response that I anticipate getting. I love tearing idiotic ideas apart.

          • Nic the NZer 5.1.4.4.1

            Before you go tearing, can you explain why getting a govt surplus is a legitimate policy goal. Your argument should address the facts that,

            1) the sum of balances of payments internationally is zero.

            2) a negative balance of payments reduces NZs GDP.

            3) a govt surplus reduces NZs GDP, (a govt deficit increases it).

            4) in the absence of a balance of payments surpluses or a govt deficit increases in GDP ride entirely on non-govt debt increases or decreasing non-govt savings.

            My actual claim for a valid policy goal is not some fiscal balance. Instead the govt should basically target full employment with its levels of spending and this means replacing any income which goes overseas via the balance of payments deficit, typically.

          • Mat Simpson 5.1.4.4.2

            I look forward reading your unplanned and incoherent magic money response that I anticipate getting. I love tearing idiotic ideas apart.

            Mr Lyn Prentice you are a wonderful human being sir.

  6. Adrian 6

    Criticism of Labour exactly measures NZers immature propensity to criticise any of our sports teams if they are not constantly winning or at the top of the world ranking. FFs look at the numbers, they don't lie. The RBNZs numbers yesterday have us at the top of the world rankings in employment, growth, debt ratio, ad infinitum. No other country is doing anywhere as well at the moment. The so-called weakness in the dollar is caused by the FAILURE of other countries having to raise their interest rates a lot higher than ours, thus leading to a movement of money to those currencys.

    Why don't Labour do this? or that ?, because frankly the constant whingers could not do it themselves and no doubt can do bugger all except fucking complain.
    If you think Nats could do better, what do you think the minimum wage would be now ? Not within a bulls roar of what it is that’s for sure, how many of your friends dead from Covid, how many more people living in cars than in 2016, now housing prices are falling because we now have almost too many houses.

  7. AB 7

    The theology goes like this:

    • If Government debt is high – tax cuts are required to liberate the entrepreneurial class to grow the economy, increase tax receipts and reduce Government debt. And this should be combined with Government spending cuts as an additional tool.
    • If Government debt is low, too much tax is being collected and tax cuts are required to return the money to the hardworking populace. And this should be combined with Government spending cuts as an additional tool.

    The question that comes to mind – is there any possible set of economic conditions when this recipe is not the correct one? And if the answer is "no", how can it be anything other than an article of faith based on the conviction that the state must be shrunk?

    In any case, in trying to appease these sophists, Labour is going down the dead end of the Third Way. They need to act. Cut GST to 12.5% and flag future similar decreases. Make the first $10k earned tax free and flag future raising of that threshold. Announce this next year when with luck, overseas-sourced inflation is retreating.

    • Cricklewood 7.1

      I think adjusting the thresholds is the correct thing to do, as is a tax free threshold. But given we are still running a pretty hefty deficit despite our largest ever tax take adjustment should be made at the top brackets to make these adjustments tax neutral or close to. The tax burden is now sitting far heavier on the lower paid than it should.

      • Shanreagh 7.1.1

        I agree with this Cricklewood. Surely tax rate adjustments can be made neutral if an increased take from those who are best able to afford it is not palatable.

        • Nic the NZer 7.1.1.1

          Fiscally neutral means somebody pays more/earns less compensating for the other change in policy. If the other change is unpalatable your accepting a non-fiscally neutral policy change or also making other cuts or (as National did) raising GST.

          • Shanreagh 7.1.1.1.1

            A bit more tax for higher earners and lower rates for lower earners with the aim of ensuring that no more than is currently taken is taken but the mix changes.

            I don't find it unpalatable that those who can pay more do pay more. They have more disposable income than those on lower incomes and have the means to make the extra work for them by investing if they so choose. This choice does not exist for income strapped people on lower incomes.

            I am not envisaging anything like changes to GST etc, – as this impacts on those on lower incomes more harshly than on those on higher incomes.

            • Nic the NZer 7.1.1.1.1.1

              I agree a more progressive change in PAYE would be an easily justified policy.

              Note however the public response to a minor change to GST, and subsequent backdown. Unfortunately thats how politics works.

              Only thing is the fiscally neutral part is completely irrelevant. Govt makes plenty of non fiscally neutral changes as needed anyway and it typically makes larger errors in its forecast (the budget) than entire spending programs.

              There are plenty of reasonable policies which should be implemented without undue reverence to a budget estimation process, or negotiated politically in exchange for some tax policy (this process usually sees these projects canned).

      • Anker 7.1.2

        criclewood, the TOP policy makes the most sense to me. tax land. it would be very difficult for people to dodge it. the only wat around it would be to sell it or use it more productively

        • Cricklewood 7.1.2.1

          I'm not sure on that proposal as yet, I've got a feeling it will come with a bunch of unintended consequences…

          Definitely wont really do anything to discourage land bankers as it's not high enough to really effect them… personally I quite like the idea of a progressive tax or duty based on the number of properties someone or an entity owns.

    • Adrian 7.2

      If the Gummint dropped GST to 12.5 the same bloody grizzlers would complain that it had not been dropped enough!. Grow up, where do you think the money comes from for the hospitals and schools, all the social payments, and everything thing else that is demanded ?. So many people are financially illiterate it is staggering.

      • Nic the NZer 7.2.1

        Its entirely possible for the govt to remove GST entirely with no other tax changes. The major effect of this would be a recorded increase in NZ GDP. We know this causes no issues with the NZ govt running short of money because all (virtually all) payments to/from the govt occur inside the RBNZ payments system to some domestic bank. In fact the resulting account balances never even leave the RBNZ banks computer system. The implication is that all the impacts of the GST policy are about what happens to the NZ economy as a result.

        All the further impacts are forecast based. These include changes to nominal spending due to higher NZ income, changes to income tax receipts due to changes in nominal spending, changes in nominal saving and changes to inflation. But unless inflation fully compensates for the income increase, or the GST change is completely saved then NZs real GDP will increase as a result. Considering its a progressive tax change this would also improve income inequality.

        Real economics has very little to do with this notion of financial literacy.

  8. Ed1 8

    Is it time that some restrictions were imposed on departing Ministers?

    I am sure that Kris Faafoi is not the only Minister to get into lobbying for pay, but if there ever is a time to require a delay surely it is when it is a Minister from the current Government . .

    https://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2022/10/from_cabinet_straight_to_lobbying.html

    Did Farrar conveniently forget a few from other parties?

    • Shanreagh 8.1

      I have made some comments on the earlier thread and read the Kiwiblog but I am struggling to understand why this is so bad and what difference the amount of time makes…….

      If lobbying is bad, then it is bad whether it occurs 3 hours, 3 days, 3 months or 3 years later.

      Lobbyists have been with us since time immemorial. The key point about any lobbying is that there is sunshine about it. Faafoi has certainly publicised this.

      But the time? Is it to do with insider knowledge? Huge hedging about using knowledge gained – as many MPs who have wanted to write autobiographies have found out to their cost. The reach from Govt to check & sometimes remove info gained in positions of power and if this should be shared is wide.

      Earlier discussion
      https://thestandard.org.nz/daily-review-05-10-2022/

      I would welcome some comment about WHY it is wrong to be a lobbyist rather than reiterating the ‘shock, horror, they shouldn’t be allowed’ point of view.

      • Cricklewood 8.1.1

        I think the basic answer is one of perception. Basically it's pretty easy to start throwing allegations of undue influence and worse around especially if someone steps straight from a ministerial into a lobbying role. Some of that mud sticks and does parliament itself a disservice.

        Simply put the right are crying foul about Faafoi but the left would be doing the same if say Joyce had done the same halfway through his last term.

        Having a gap of 12 months as other countries enforce helps in removing the perception of undue influence.

      • Belladonna 8.1.2

        It's not being a lobbyist, in itself, which is ethically dubious (that's another debate)

        Someone who has just resigned as a cabinet minister from the government still in power, has unprecedented knowledge of non-public material, due to his previous role.

        He knows what was discussed around the cabinet table, what the government priorities are, where the potential weak points are to pry open on behalf of his clients.

        Any ex MP has *some* degree of knowledge (just knowing who are the power brokers in the various ministries is highly valuable – and it's not always based on the organizational structure). But the knowledge that a just-retired cabinet minister has, of the government still in power, is vastly greater.

        Many industries have mandatory stand-down periods, and or restraint-of-trade clauses – for just this reason.

        And, many other countries impose this restriction on their ex-MPs for a varying period. No one says 'forever'. But lots of people say, 'not too quickly'

        • Anker 8.1.2.1

          An outrage that Faafoi can become a lobbiest so soon after leaving parliament. 5 year stand down in Canada. And I agree Belladonna with all you say

    • Peter 8.2

      I'm not going to read about it on Farrar's site. (To protect myself from torrents of hypocrisy.)

      Lobbying was a topic for discussion in Parliament in 2012.

      "Lobbying Disclosure Bill fails but transparency encouraged

      https://duncancotterill.com/publications/lobbying-disclosure-bill-fails-but-transparency-encouraged

      "The Government Administration Committee (Committee) has recommended that the Lobbying Disclosure Bill (the Bill) not be passed."

      https://www.parliament.nz/en/pb/bills-and-laws/bills-proposed-laws/document/00DBHOH_BILL11278_1/lobbying-disclosure-bill

      • Ed1 8.2.1

        Thanks for the replies and links. I am better informed; and I suspect Farrar was "fermenting stinky mischief" again . . .

  9. One charge against Labour seems to be sticking. The meme about MIQ and Lock Downs has become "Authoritarian Bureaucrats", (who lack experience) and…

    National has the high ground in not being "Tainted by covid" and selling an old chestnut of "More of your own money", ( they are wasting it).

    Labour needs to start listing what is at risk, and countering any issues raised.

    Labour needs to sell their vision using "influencers" the same way National has had NZers of prominence endorse their beliefs.

    The pendulum has swung back, and there will be a tough three years ahead who ever wins, because a large group are going to be unhappy with either result.

    Plus mental wellbeing has been impacted by the last two years of anxiety, and our fight or flight mechanism has been activated.

    Many are trying to cope with cortisol grief and anger at mandates, mistaken beliefs, lack of socialisation, and disappointment in "the middle way."

    So Jacinda Ardern has gone from hero to the butt of anger for many.

    The constant “they are wasteful spenders” needs to be countered, by spending to support the disabled solo and young families even more.

    Promising a meaningful tax review with ideas from consulted public think tanks( not a dry academic with no vision).

    They have twelve months to sell a vision. It needs to be clearly expressed through a few real impactful strategic moves imo.

  10. In the UK there are prohibitions on the conduct of MPs re lobbying

    https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201719/cmcode/1882/188206.htm#_idTextAnchor052

    I am sure there will be similar for MPs in in the NZ parliament.

    There are rules on how long the lobbying rules apply after leaving the UK parliament

    Former Members

    20.Former Members must abide by the restrictions of the lobbying rules for six months after their departure from the House in respect of any approach they make to Ministers, other Members or public officials. Former Members may not use their privileged parliamentary pass for the purposes of lobbying on the parliamentary estate.

    Of course setting up a lobbying firm without actually doing any lobbying may not breach these rules. The rules are quite specific about what constitutes lobbying.

  11. Lobbying has been around in the Westminster system for eons, before the beginning of the 18th Century in Britain.

    https://www.jstor.org/stable/2591264

    That is not to say that we should not be aware of who and how our politicans are lobbied and possible impacts of this.

    This is a good article.

    https://journals.openedition.org/osb/409

    With this long background 'shock, horror' at the fact of setting up a lobbying firm or of lobbying itself is perhaps a little naive?

    We also need to examine appointments to Boards and the appointments of former politicians as Directors or Chairs to Boards that can reach into our everyday life. I think this is a greater threat.

    Lobbying as a concept is bound to become more regulated with advice of lobbyists contacts with Govt Ministers ……not so the reach of former politicians with their political theories onto the boards of user groups.

    • Belladonna 11.1

      "We also need to examine appointments to Boards and the appointments of former politicians as Directors or Chairs to Boards that can reach into our everyday life. I think this is a greater threat. "

      While I'm not opposed to reviewing directorships or board memberships for ex-politicians – I question whether it really is a greater threat.

      Both of those are known appointments. For example: we all knew that John Key was appointed to the board of Air New Zealand, and Katherine Rich was the CEO of the Food & Grocery Council. It makes it 'easier' to identify the need to prepare a counter-weight argument.

      It's much harder with a lobbyist – when you have no idea who their clients are; so people with opposing views have no idea that they need to do their own political engagement.

  12. Adrian 12

    Government is now so complex as the World is a lot more complex than only a generation or so ago, and any entity trying to get change or their voice heard really does need help from someone who knows how it works. The tricky bit is if the "voice "is for the greater good i.e others or personal gain. It is the latter that there must be constrictions on and for us to be wary of.

  13. Mat Simpson 13

    " The Reserve Bank is digging deeper into taxpayers pockets to increase the profits of investors and commercial bank shareholders with today’s lifting of the Official Cash Rate

    https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2022/10/06/reserve-bank-picks-taxpayers-pockets-to-boost-commercial-bank-profits-social-credit/

  14. Poission 14

    Credit agency pulls on big boy pants to remind Torys,that the days of disneyland economics are gone.

    https://twitter.com/BloombergUK/status/1577782948023177218?cxt=HHwWhMC42erOtOUrAAAA

  15. logie97 15

    Three Waters

    Is there a lot of noise or is there genuine concern?

    It looks as though the local polling is lower than ever, yet apparently councils are telling us that their constituents are "up in arms" at the prospect of the theft of their precious water resources.

    Seems, most people don't seem to care who runs their districts and are only concerned about their annual rates and water bills.

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