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Open mike 08/04/2019

Written By: - Date published: 7:00 am, April 8th, 2019 - 123 comments
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Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

123 comments on “Open mike 08/04/2019”

  1. cleangreen 1

    Welcome back to ‘The Standard’ we missed you yesterday after about 1’30pm when the site was cut, but now now up again thanks to the folks at The Standard.

    Must have been some “house cleaning” that was gong on?

    • cleangreen 1.1

      Over on “the AM show’ I see that the last death throws coming from ‘dead man walking’ – ‘Simon Bridges’

      As he is beating his gums on the AM show today, complaining about the ‘Statistician not releasing the latest stats on our ‘happiness’.

      If he retired from politics we all perhaps then be far more full of ‘happiness’.

      • greywarshark 1.1.1

        cleangreen
        I read recently how in late WW2 the Allies were not sorry that Hitler was not killed in the attempted assassination by bomb. They knew him, understood his paranoia and obsessions, and were sure they could match any of his maneouvres, outthink him and eventually win over Germany. They didn’t want someone else with a clear head and new approach taking over and changing the style. Don’t wish Bridges gone,

        • cleangreen 1.1.1.1

          greywarshark.

          Good call there,

          Best keep Bridges in front of National as the ‘village idiot’ eh?

          • greywarshark 1.1.1.1.1

            Pardon me! He is not an idiot – he is a perfect example of a modern Right Wing Major-National.

            • cleangreen 1.1.1.1.1.1

              Ha ha.

            • McFlock 1.1.1.1.1.2

              He is the very model of a modern right-wing national
              his intellect is vegetable, integrity ephemeral,
              His caucus not dependable, their loyalties transferrable
              and prone to many scandals that are publicly relational
              [and prone to many scandals that are publicly relational]
              [and prone to many scandals that are publicly relational]
              [and prone to many scandals that are publicly relational]

              their internecine fighting has been eminently recordable
              their crises management is far from being laudable
              their efforts to deflect reporters now become most laughable
              and prone to many scandals that are publicly relational
              [and prone to many scandals that are publicly relational]
              [and prone to many scandals that are publicly relational]
              [and prone to many scandals that are publicly relational]

              • greywarshark

                Excellent McFlock – now write the rest of the soapy opera and you will have a hit. You will be as good as a rock star. It may produce a sellout from the Right, or not but one could hope.

    • I’m tempted to suggest that it was a test of what the Standard would look like if we ever instituted a paywall model, but I understand it was actually something to do with flies in the server and Lprent had to get out the RAID.

      • greywarshark 1.2.1

        It wasn’t that naughty black cat pushing the red button then?

        • lprent 1.2.1.1

          Nope.

          However I must post a photo of the cat proofing protection that the servers now have.

          • greywarshark 1.2.1.1.1

            Perhaps we could enlarge the system, design it to control for rats instead, and put it round the Labour Coalition.

  2. Bridges is a bit like a lost sheep these days, or a dog barking at car tyres, I am not sure which ?

    The Natzi’s appear to be vision less these days especially after the resignation of their fearless leader Hone Shonkey ?

    • cleangreen 2.1

      National should get radical and come out as a “champion strong advocate on climate change” .

      They can easily argue and suggest that we must restore our rail system as another ‘Land transport option’ for freight and passenger with a” low emission carbon footprint safer transport service”. Last night on Newhub there was a senoir well respected scientist stating that ‘air passenger service’ is the highest carbon footprint service with every single passenger.

      Figures shown by University of Wellington Professor James Renwick were showing that a single air passenger trip from Auckland to Wellington showed each passenger uses 145 kgs of carbon, where by rail it was 17kgs, and electric car was 11kgs, and by bus was 22kgs from memory,

      Staggering result that was.

      https://www.icao.int/environmental-protection/CarbonOffset/Pages/default.aspx

      • AB 2.1.1

        Maybe we should each have a shrinking annual allocation of air miles. If you choose not to use them yourself you can sell them to someone else. If you don’t want anyone to use them you can sell them to the government who cancels them. Administrative nightmare of course. But a side benefit would be outraging the likes of wee Mikey Hoskie.
        Also people too poor to travel get an extra income stream.

  3. I’ve just spotted that TS has posted 1.5 million approved comments.

    Congrats and a digital chocolate fish to …. drum roll … ankerawshark, who crossed the line here

  4. joe90 4

    Talibangelicals say the darnedest things.

    • WeTheBleeple 4.1

      Reich wing christianity.

      • Sabine 4.1.1

        just call them Christo Fascist or American Taliban. That way you don’t have to try to make a German English hybrid that does not mean anything.

        just my inner germans two cents.

    • ianmac 4.2

      Americans must be so used to the normalising of killing by drone that this would pass with little concern.

    • Wensleydale 4.3

      “Thou shalt not kill!”

      I believe someone important said that once, but I can’t for the life of me remember who…

      I suspect Pat’s memory has degraded over time too, along with his morals and sanity.

    • higherstandard 4.4

      “I’m old enough to remember when this guy was the craziest guy on earth. Now he’s not even in the top 100.”

  5. Ad 5

    Twyford’s first start at a tourniquet of the massively injured Auckland light rail project: dump the whole western Auckland half of it:

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12220122

    • Wayne 5.1

      Basically he is dropping the wrong half. Light rail to the west makes a lot of sense. It would be far better to do heavy rail to the airport. The whole Dominion Rd thing looks fraught.

      • Sabine 5.1.1

        The main problem NZ really has when it comes to transport issues, future proofing public, private and commercial transport is simply the total lack of guts and imagination.
        Thus no glory. But for what its worth, non so gutless then National. In nine years in government your boys and girls in parliament have managed to get nothing done. And that is quite something.

        A long time ago i watched a debate on TV between John Key – National, Helen Clark – Labour, Jeanette Fitzsimmons – Green. John Key waffled on how he was gonna bring NZ wages to parity with OZ and tax cuts, Helen Clark was protecting her last nine years, and Jeanette Fitzsimmons spoke about how we needed investment in public transport, needed trains, trams and buses to get us everywhere in this country, and the rest is history.

        so the last ones to complain about any party doing anything about public transport is National. They have had nine years and literally only have a housing crisis, homelessness and record public debt to show for.

        • greywarshark 5.1.1.1

          So true Sabine.

          This from the linked NZHerald item:
          The Government may have to scale back its $6 billion light rail programme for Auckland by scrapping a line from the city centre to west Auckland, says Transport Minister Phil Twyford.

          The MP for Te Atatu said it was his strong preference to see light rail built from the city centre to the west and to the airport, but if it is not possible to fund and finance both lines, then light rail to the airport will get priority.

          National Party people would have been the ones preventing expenditure on public transport since the year dot. The year dot is when it was being officially talked about. The number of human bodies on the local bodies that could think further than their own pockets, and their next term in power was greater than the co-efficient of whatever. Simple mathematics and a long-term viewpoint were incompatible and me-first maths won.

          Now it is important to get something signed up and started now. If National manage to weasel their way in to power we will get more and more simple mathematics. And never get close to coping with our complex problems which can never be actually solved, just understood and ameliorated.

        • cleangreen 5.1.1.2

          Accurately well said Sabine.

        • WeTheBleeple 5.1.1.3

          Don’t forget the rundown public services, infrastructure shortages, privatization of assets (THEFT with 300 000 opposing signatures and public opinion polls ignored).

          The bashing of poor people, dark people, green people through public media (They’re all wreckers and haters), through police, banks, spy services (who also turned out to be relatively f’n useless).

          Don’t forget the war trajectory and you personally and your team dishing out Islamophobia.

          Now you reckon you know about trains. You lot sell trains Wayne, you don’t build them so let’s get real.

          If there’s no heavy rail to airport on the table right now (and there is not), the sensible move would indeed be to service the airport with already underway light rail first.

          But if your job is to:

          Do nothing AND whinge about what others do

          Job well done. Carry on.

        • Wayne 5.1.1.4

          Sabine, cleangreen and greywarshark,

          You all seem to have completely forgotten that the largest single construction project in New Zealand, the CRL, was started by National.

          • cleangreen 5.1.1.4.1

            Wanye;
            I have stated on 2.1 that National needs to show ‘environmental leadership’ on all rail services both freight and passenger services.

            2.1 “National should get radical and come out as a “champion strong advocate on climate change” .
            They can easily argue and suggest that we must restore our rail system as another ‘Land transport option’ for freight and passenger with a” low emission carbon footprint safer transport service”.

            I didn’t talk about Cict rail link did I?

            Auckland City is not NZ unless you are an Aucklander.

            https://www.cityraillink.co.nz/

          • lprent 5.1.1.4.2

            Bullshit.

            Started by Auckland Council.

            National were dragged reluctantly into the project what? something like a year later. I’d have to look it up.

            Almost certainly because the transport projects that National funded (Roads of significance to National) had appalling business cases. They were so poor that National stopped showing them in public. At the same time the CRL was showing good returns.

            Personally I think that the ONLY reason that the Key government approved it was because the hypocrisy levels were getting too high for even Nationals donors as Auckland traffic kept getting worse as National built empty highways.

            • Wayne 5.1.1.4.2.1

              Well, you would say that, but you would also be wrong. The motorway projects have way better BCR’s than any public transport project.

              Just to remind you (yet again), the CRL is almost twice as large as any motorway project. Not started by Labour, started by National in 2014.

              If you want the government wants to pay a bigger share to the Council, then the government can. Labour/Green are after all the government.

              • lprent

                The motorway projects have way better BCR’s than any public transport project.

                It is possible to make any project look good if you don’t bother to include economic costs in the BCR.

                For instance that is what appears to have happened with East-West Link, and as far as I can tell it was the case with almost all of the RoNS.

                Of course if you over-estimate the economic costs as happened in the CRL assessments by NZLTA, then you get whatever number if deemed to be relevant. Of course it helps if you don’t provide the workings so that they can be criticized by others. There was a rather wide range between the ACC economic assessments and those from NZLTA.

                It is possible to make any project look good if you over-estimate the changes in traffic. That appears to be the case with almost all of the RoNS projects that I looked at. For that matter if you look at the extensions to the SH1 motorways

                Conversely, if you massively under-estimate the take up of a public transport system you can make public transport look extremely bad. NZLTA BCRs routinely do that.

                It has happened with very NZLTA assessment in Auckland that subsequently got built. Including the Northern busway ( right the way through to not requiring a bridge replacement), double tracking and electrification of the Auckland heavy rail and the massive increases in use of PT (and the reduced need to try to increase capacity on our in-city motorways), changes in bus routes, etc…

                Basically, unless the NZLTA starts to do public estimates with funding for some public checks on their analysis, I’d say that they’re just a tool of the roading construction companies. Because that is what they look like to me.

              • lprent

                Not started by Labour, started by National in 2014.

                FFS: Not started by National. Started by the Auckland council.

                Forced on a very reluctant National after their favored business case from NZLTA proved to be completely flawed and after the BCRs for RoNS were lacerated by expert scrutiny.

                In May 2011 the Government noted that after reviewing an initial business case for the project, it was unconvinced of the economic benefits of the tunnel. However, Minister of Transport Steven Joyce noted that he would not stand in the way of Auckland continuing planning and route designation work – if Auckland paid for it.[5] In June 2011 Auckland Council voted to approve $2 million for planning and route protection for the tunnel, with Auckland Transport, rather than KiwiRail, undertaking the process.[32]

                In March 2012, Auckland Council decided to bring forward spending from the 2012–2013 budget, in order to continue progress protecting the eventual route. $6.3 million was spent on work including geotechnical surveys, utility and building assessments, contaminated site reports and rail operations modelling and $1.7m towards providing a revised business case, requested by the government.[33][34]

            • cleangreen 5.1.1.4.2.2

              Lprent yes thanks for that.

              So National didnt even plan for the CRL at all, – but tried too take the credit for it;$%^&OP{}|!!!!!

              Well isn’t that just like National making false claims again.

              National = have no credibility.

          • WeTheBleeple 5.1.1.4.3

            Some origin story:

            “the 1972 Rapid Transit Plan for Auckland. The history of this plan is eerily similar to our current situation in many ways. It was a revolutionary scheme championed by the charismatic mayor of Auckland Dove Myer Robinson (leading to the nickname ‘Robbie’s Rapid Rail’), despite the mayoralty and council not having the means to actually fund the thing independently. They began working on alternate funding solutions such as a targeted land tax but found them impossible to implement without support from Wellington. In the end by the Labour government reluctantly offered an election pledge to fund the proposal, but failed to deliver on that pledge. A wholly unsupportive National government were voted into power in 1975 and in 1976 the plan was cancelled completely.”

            https://www.greaterauckland.org.nz/2011/12/02/an-auckland-that-could-have-been-the-1972-auckland-rapid-rail-transit-plan/

            In the interim we got Britomart. Then we tried to connect stuff up…

            “Further input was provided by Auckland Transport, which commissioned the study after the Government and the council had arrived at very different conclusions about the rail loop’s return on every dollar invested. Given all that, this study should be the definitive research, not yet another document destined to gather dust. Mr Brown’s task now is to convince Aucklanders that the study is robust and its conclusions are right. If he can, the Government should stand to one side.”

            https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10855434

            “On 27 January 2016, Prime Minister John Key announced in his state of the nation address that central government funding for main works construction of the CRL had been confirmed and this would allow Auckland Council to start to construct the main works from 2018, with central funds guaranteed to flow from 2020. Commentary at the time reflected an opinion that this was a belated agreement to central government funding of the project by the ruling National Party, while the main opposition parliamentary parties (Labour Party, Greens and NZ First) had all been promising immediate construction timetables which were more closely aligned to the plans of the council.”

            https://www.beehive.govt.nz/speech/speech-auckland-chamber-commerce-0

            Stalling, mucking about, fudging, and dragged kicking and screaming after a myriad of others plans were rejected outright, many of them good plans, that was what National did. Also tried to force the entire bill on Auckland as if transport was not in their portfolio.

            Roads of National (party) significance, that was your thing.

            • Sabine 5.1.1.4.3.1

              i have lived for 20 years now here in NZ, so started under shipley. At that time you had to throw yourself in front of a bus – when one came, never on time – to get it too stop.

              Claiming a tunnel being build as their own, while it was done under labour, also Nationals thing.

              Auckland is at shambles because your Party did nothing. Absolutely nothing other then build roads that are clogged 24 hours.

              Your rammed thousands of people in this city, and gave not one thought to the infrastructure. Cause that is hard work, and your lot is not known for working and certainly not hard work.

              National, a Party as usefull as its leader Simon “NO Bridges for Northland’ Bridges.

              And believe me, if National would have actually achieved just something of value to the public – and not business interest – we would know by now 🙂

          • Incognito 5.1.1.4.4

            National was as reluctant to start this project as a teenage boy responding to a Paternity Order after he gets his teenage girlfriend pregnant.

        • Skunk Weed 5.1.1.5

          Light Rail down Dominion Rd across the Mangere Bridge to the Airport will be an absolute shambles during the construction phase ?

          The roads are already chock a block to the Airport from 6.00am to 6.00pm with 35,000 people currently working at the Airport projected to 55,000 in 5 years time ?

          This will be a Monumental F%#K UP IMHO ?

      • cleangreen 5.1.2

        Shit here’s me agreeing with Wayne Mapp.

        Better go and wash my mouth out with carbolic soap.

        All rail should be ‘multi-purpose for passenger and freight and that means heavy rail.

        ‘ Light rail’ is dumb, -and is just throwing ‘good money after bad’.

      • Skunk Weed 5.1.3

        Light Rail down Dominion Rd across the Mangere Bridge to the Airport will be an absolute shambles during the construction phase ?

        The roads are already chock a block to the Airport from 6.00am to 6.00pm with 35,000 people currently working at the Airport projected to 55,000 in 5 years time ?

        This will be a Monumental F%#K UP IMHO ?

        • Sabine 5.1.3.1

          Have a look to the french City of Nice.
          Very similar to AKL, one side mountains, other side water, and a large and sprawling city wedged in.

          Within three years the whole city got the Tram – light rail, dedicated bus lanes, (train already existed), and the cost of using public transport was initially 1 euro irrespective where you went in the Department Alpes Maritimes – Monaco to Marseille and up the mountains. Now the cost is at 1.50$ per ride.

          A lot of people stopped driving the car.

          but nice had a choice to make, either die in traffic and of smog or put up with some inconvenience and move to the future.

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nice_tramway

          Really cool were the new archeological finds near la place Massena, the old part of Nice and at the old fish market. they were put under glass during construction and were made open to the public.

          It can be done, a bit of guts, a bit of good will, above all political will and it can be done.

          The question is has NZ got guts, good will and political good will, or is it just another thing that ‘we can’t do’ cause…………..?

          • alwyn 5.1.3.1.1

            It is hardly comparable with Auckland.
            The population is about 340,000 or only about one fifth of Auckland.
            It is even smaller than Wellington or Christchurch.

      • Brigid 5.1.4

        Absolute bollocks Wayne.
        Light rail to the west is a total waste of money considering there already is a line to Whangarei via Helensville currrently used by the odd freight train.
        A $50,000 fire suppression system fitted for use through the Waitakere tunnel, is all that’s required.

        You obviously have no idea Wayne what the people of West Auckland need or want.

        From the Trains to Huapai facebook page
        “Residents of West Auckland have been calling out for commuter train shuttles to run from Swanson station through the currently unused Waitakere station to Huapai for a number of years. It is the number one most wanted public transport issue commented on in numerous Auckland Transport surveys and consultations. Yet prospects of Trains to Huapai to meet the needs of accelerating housing development now, have been stymied by the government’s unproven long term focus on light rail trams to Kumeu.”
        “We are pleased the Government through NZTA is funding twice daily commuter trains from Hamilton to Papakura for around $60 million. However, for less than $4 million the people of Nor-West Auckland could have hourly rail shuttles operating seven days a week from Huapai and Waitakere to Swanson station
        “Twyford admits the promised light rail trams to Kumeu look like not happening for decades.

        So why not get the Trains To Huapai? Fact is Phil Twyford (Labour) and Genter(Greens) listen to a self appointed group calling themselves “Greater Auckland” who designed the light rail trams for everywhere map. This small group successfully sold their dream to the Minister of Transport and Mayor Phil Goff.

        We are frustrated that a small group of light rail enthusiasts with connections to the light rail industry have robbed Nor West Auckland of commuter trains.

        Trams to Kumeu 2049?
        Trains to Huapai can be delivered 2019 if there’s political will.”

        • Skunk Weed 5.1.4.1

          Twitford needs to start engaging his brain IMHO ?

        • WeTheBleeple 5.1.4.2

          That’s really interesting. If the figure of $4M is true it’s a pittance for what it would achieve. But surely that doesn’t include the engines, rolling stock, staff…

          Is there a business case the group could take to the business communities in these areas? With them on-side the group might have more clout, and maybe match some of the funds?

          Great for business. More foot traffic. Better access to greater Auckland and for greater Auckland to get to them. Eases congestion for freight in/out and tradies.

          • Andre 5.1.4.2.1

            They trialled a Helensville service in 08 -09. It was discontinued end of December 09.

            https://www.greaterauckland.org.nz/2009/11/10/goodbye-helensville-train-service/

            Around $45 subsidy per passenger, 43 passengers per day, that’s nearly $2k a day subsidy. $700k a year subsidy. That was before electrification, there’s be a bit of a headache integrating services between the electrified and non-electrified bits.

            • WeTheBleeple 5.1.4.2.1.1

              Thanks.

              They identified some of the issues in that trial (rail in disrepair, no broader connectivity to broader network), wonder if they’ve worked on how to fix them.

              I guess as we get a network where population is dense first hopefully providing a feasible base, we have a chance of then hooking up more satellite services. And then that might do what one would hope transport spending does – better access to and from wider Auckland, and easing congestion.

              The planet is of course a nice plug for rail too, but only if it is actually pulling vehicles off roads.

            • Brigid 5.1.4.2.1.2

              Their trial rail service served no one. That’s why is was not patronised. After only a year it was deemed a failure.
              Of course it was designed exactly for that result.

              The rail service from Helensville to Auckland that ran up until the early 70s was well patronised. I know, I used it. Why, when the population has quadrupled, should public rail transport be not viable in the west.

              A perfectly satisfactory line exits FFS! Why should it not be used.

              • Andre

                Oddly enough, if that 43 users per day is accurate, then I’m personally acquainted with nearly 5% of the total patronage. Wealthy lifestyle block types, both of them.

              • WeTheBleeple

                It wouldn’t surprise me if it was made to fail. Way back when Dad was an engineer they bought rolling stock that could only run half the pace of the engines to claim trucks were superior for freight.

                If they’re on the oil teat, lies will arise.

        • Skunk Weed 5.1.4.3

          Like + 100%

        • Skunk Weed 5.1.4.4

          Fixing the Rail to Kumeu is a No Brainer and must be done immediately it is commonsense IMHO, can someone suggest it to Twitford perhaps ?

          • Brigid 5.1.4.4.1

            Ah
            I do believe it has been suggested to Twyford numerous times, via every media imaginable, perhaps even in multiple languages.

    • OnceWasTim 5.2

      Kind of as a ‘just as an aside’, I’m picking the whole thing is, and will be another example of short-medium term ‘thinkery’ with various lobbyists pushing their various, and differing barrows.
      So far, I bet there are factions with a vushun of light rail options based on their partikyala oseas experiences, and other with opposing views.
      ALL peshnit about what they do.
      And as things stand, I’ll bet some of the options are already at the stage where they’ve ‘invisiged solutions [going forward’] and, come what may – that is all.
      I’d also put money on their ‘solutions [going forward]’ come with minor little details such as their light rail coming with a different line gauge, such that things like train-trams can’t easily be implemented.

  6. cleangreen 6

    Lower carbon footprint Labour please.

    Auckland professor says Kiwis should quit air travel to protect the environment
    07/04/2019

    https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/travel/2019/04/auckland-professor-says-kiwis-should-quit-air-travel-to-protect-the-environment.html

    Quote; “If you fly the 496km between Auckland and Wellington, you emit around 150kg of carbon dioxide equivalent.

    A medium-sized car making the same journey emits about a third less, while a bus, train and electric car all have significantly lower emissions – just under 55kg between all three of them.

    This is a must watch for Government MP’s flying from Auckland today for parliament tomorrow in Wellington.

    Hear this Phil Twyford, – ‘take a train passenger service to Wellington with Jacinda and lower your carbon footprint’s too.’.

    • alwyn 6.1

      A bloody good start in reducing the amount of flying our MPs do would be to require all the List MPs to move to Wellington when they get elected. Then we wouldn’t need to pay for them to have accommodation provided in Wellington either, or to have to move their families backward and forward at tax-payer expense.

      This would not apply of course to the Electorate MPs. They actually need to travel to and from their electorates as they actually have work to do there.

      Having the Green Party leader drop out of his position as the biggest single user of overseas travel would be nice as well.
      Then he might have time to spend on the fiasco that is his Statistics Department.

  7. Philip Ferguson 7

    As if child poverty and the growing working poor aren’t bad enough, NZ Capitalism Ltd is now delivering growing pensioner poverty. Given the falling rates of home ownership pensioner poverty is like to expand over the coming generation.

    https://rdln.wordpress.com/2019/04/04/pensioner-poverty/

    • cleangreen 7.1

      Phillip.

      Labour are shackled by the -bean counters and the right wing roger douglas brigade side of their caucus sadly.

      These right wingers will hold onto our public purse so very tightly even though they promised so much and never have delivered now.

      So the clock countdown now begins to the election, – as they have less than half their term left now.

      Transport minister is in hiding and needs to come out in the budget to explain why our rail has not been revived yet around all our provinces. The road toll is worse than when he took over so he needs to provide a safe regional rail freight and passenger service to save lives, and our health and wellbeing.

      “The proof is in the pudding” Mr Twyford!!!!!

      • Skunk Weed 7.1.1

        Labour are basically ideologically driven, getting the doing part going is the hard part, they talk a big game but do not have the skills to get things done as most of them have very little real world practical experience, National are not much better IMHO ?

    • AB 7.2

      The moral instincts of conservatives tell them that people with insufficient money aren’t proper humans.

      • cleangreen 7.2.1

        AB I think most politicians have low moral compass or fortitude.

        Serried complex = One rotten apple in a barrel makes all apples rotten, dad told me often in the 1950’s.

        • Skunk Weed 7.2.1.1

          It is all about getting re-elected most politican’s in all the Political Parties would not have a clue, as they have no real world experience, it is all about celebrity politics and who MSM want elected. There is very little difference between Labour & National ?

          • cleangreen 7.2.1.1.1

            I now have to grudgingly agree with you now Skunk Weed.

            Not much to cling onto believing that we are having a “transformative” government here sadly.

  8. Andre 8

    This piece from ThinkProgress has the best graphical illustration I’ve ever seen of just how astonishingly effective vaccinations are.

    https://thinkprogress.org/measles-outbreaks-vaccines-exemptions-6dce41092040/

    • One Two 8.1

      What about the graph of outbreaks in highly vaccinated populations, Andre…

      You should stick to what you know about…like engineering…

      This subject is not for you…the links you post illustrate it unequivocally…

      So while you’re looking to start this up…again…try hang around longer than J90 did…he ran off…after a single response I made…simple question…Joe ran…

      Edit. Simple question for you..

      How many FDA approved and currently scheduled (CDC) vaccines, were tested against an inert placebo control in pre licensure testing?

      • Andre 8.1.1

        Instead of JAQing off, how about you do the research yourself.

        But there’s one thing I’m confident you won’t find: outbreaks in highly vaccinated populations. To get outbreaks like the measles outbreaks bursting out all over the place at the moment, you need significant portions of the population to be unvaccinated.

        If those outbreaks only affected the fuckwits that choose to refuse vaccinations for themselves, I’d take a Darwinian view of it. Sadly, the ones that bear the brunt of the outbreaks are those that shouldn’t be vaccinated for genuine medical reasons (such as the immunocompromised), the too young, those unfortunate few for whom the vaccination is ineffective … and the really really unfortunate ones whose fuckwit parents refused the vaccine and didn’t tell them.

        Bring on the lawsuits to hold accountable those who refuse vaccines without genuine medical reason, that then go on to get sick and infect others.

        • One Two 8.1.1.1

          Andre, your comment is top to bottom logical fallacies, and an unbelievable low understanding of’vaccines’…

          I responded to you because I already knew what your response was going to be…

          That you have used the word ‘confident’ to describe your position, surrounded that with highly misinformed commentary…is unsurprising…

          You, Andre…need to do some more reading…not at sources you link or comment from…

          In repeat posting such uninformed and misinformed commentary on this subject…it is actually you who is j*ing off…

          But you don’t understand…your commemts say you don’t…and you should stop now…

          • Andre 8.1.1.1.1

            Since there’s no actual content in all of that, it’s kinda hard to respond to.

            But I gotta know; a while back you called me the very worst commenter on The Standard. Am I still number 1? If not, who do I hafta take down to get my crown back?

            • marty mars 8.1.1.1.1.1

              Ha not do fast young sir. I know I irritate the old one two a lot and often he is left in a quivering, slobbering, impotent rage after one of my comments. He can’t even reply coherently such is his distress just a mumble of words as if spilt from a very large soup bowl of alphabet soup. They appear to be words but, well, who can tell.

            • One Two 8.1.1.1.1.2

              Andre, in a number of ways you are one of the ‘worst’…name calling, uninformed in the extreme…especially on this subject…

              Yet, in other ways and on some subject matter, your comments are informative and knowledgeable…as you are aware…I appreciate that…as I let you know recently…

              I do hold back on this particular subject and do not seek to reignite the discussion…but will always respond if it is started up…

              There is a casm of misunderstanding on your part…there is also a plethora of scholarly articles readily available with a simple search regarding outbreaks in highly vaccinated populations…

              By the way . Outbreak = 3 according to CDC…

              Not just failing and waning measles (MMR) vaccine…but many others…in fact almost all vaccines…they fail..have failed and are failing…

              Branch out..I’m certain you’re capable…perhaps you’re fearful of what you’ll find….

              Start with the question I posed…it is root cause…starting point…

              Everything which follows, stemming from and including pre-licensure…is a fraud..

      • joe90 8.1.2

        As I’ve said before, I regard you as a supercilious spouter of arcane claptrap with an inflated sense of your own ability and I regard your woo-beliefs on vaccination as a malignant threat to public health.

        • One Two 8.1.2.1

          I am not concerned how you regard my comments Joe..if you had half a clue you might understand them…

          So…answer the question I asked you about ‘scum’… Joe…

          And while you’re at it..

          How many FDA approved and currently scheduled (CDC) vaccines, were tested against an inert placebo control in pre licensure testing?

          Then see if you can figure out the ramifications regarding claimed figures of efficacy and safety…

          Go on…don’t run…

      • McFlock 8.1.3

        lols

        RCT of vaccinated vs placebo vs “homeopathic nosodes”.

        And the winner is…

        Vaccines work, placebos don’t, and homeopathy is as ineffective as a placebo.

        This will revolutionise immunology lol

        • One Two 8.1.3.1

          No, McFlock…

          You’ve not even understood the question…

          Can you read?

          • McFlock 8.1.3.1.1

            I don’t care about your question.

            How about you answer it yourself and provide a source? And then everyone with a brain can laugh at you some more.

  9. reason 9

    A good news story …..

    I’ve been following the videos and life of a talented young Czechoslovakian man Adam Celadine …. he’s a world record holder and world champion in some aspects of knife throwing ….

    in a large part thanks to his tutorial videos, I’ve taken up a new hobby.

    Anyway this young man was struck down and made seriously ill with metastasizing cancer …. I know a little bit about cancer and was very concerned for him.

    The good news is he has now tested clear …. and he has some good advice in his short Video announcing his path back to good health

    🙂 🙂 🙂

    • reason 9.1

      That should have been Celadin ….. Adam Celadin

      • cleangreen 9.1.1

        When is the mine re-entry going to happen??????

        May third?

        http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL1903/S00079/pike-river-families-spokesperson-quits-group.htm

        The minister responsible for Pike River re-entry, Andrew Little, announced earlier this week the re-entry is scheduled for 3 May.

      • joe90 9.1.2

        Knife tricks, huh..

        @thesamurider

        • reason 9.1.2.1

          Hell that looks dangerous and reminds me of a Roald Dahl story about being to light a ligher in 20 consecutive attempts …. or lose your finger … yikes ! :O

          This young lady knows how to chuck a knife …. and she has good safety tips …. like wearing safety glasses etc .

          The wind flutter in the video disappears shortly into it …..

          • McFlock 9.1.2.1.1

            lol at one job I could goof off and practise throwing a work knife (wrong knife for it – short, handle heavy lock knife). All good fun until the ricochet comes flying back at me point first lol. Good for one’s reflexes 🙂

  10. reason 10

    As your replying to me cleangreen …. are you suggesting we throw knives at Peter Whittall or something 😉

    https://thespinoff.co.nz/society/21-08-2018/some-things-pike-rivers-peter-whittall-could-feel-guilt-over/

    Obviously I’m just kidding …. and this video is for the sword enthusiasts who were posting here the other day

    • greywarshark 10.1

      Easy peasy everyone seems to be able to do that. Even a child of five could do it? – Send for a child of five. (Groucho Marx)

    • Andre 10.2

      I’m an engineer – give me technology any day.

  11. cleangreen 11

    Ha ha ‘reason.

    Thanks for the laugh; – I needed that on this gloomy dark sky day.

    Whittle wasn’t worth consideration there,

    Whittle should be sent down a mineshaft to live and shovel safety for the rest of his days now, as he needs to be made an example of.

  12. marty mars 12

    Nice article

    Free speech “purists” say that we should let these racists be racist loudly and publicly, and then laugh or ridicule their ideas. Those people who say that are often white and male. Not always, but often. And they have the privilege to laugh and ridicule those ideas because they are usually ideas that don’t threaten their existence. However if you’re from an often oppressed group – Māori, Muslim, Rainbow, Jewish, or even female – those words that we’re told to laugh at and ridicule aren’t funny. They’re words that make your life uncomfortable and unpleasant to live through. They’re words that frighten and degrade you. They are words of hate.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12220366

    • OnceWasTim 12.1

      And just as nice @ MM, the latest ‘Listening Post’ special on Aljazeera – especially when they cover all those ‘reality TV’ type “Border Force” programmes …. almost like the poor man’s pornography.
      We’ll reserve a cameo spot for James Casson in the next series (as if he hasn’t already got his jollies from being a party to it all already).

  13. McFlock 13

    lol comment this replied to got deleted because fool got his sockpuppet accounts confused.

    • Andre 13.1

      You’re such a tease.

      • McFlock 13.1.1

        it was 1-2 with a different avatar. Didn’t think much of it until my comment ended up at the bottom as a whole number, and the fool was back to the usual avatar.

        Bit of a laugh, really.

        • cleangreen 13.1.1.1

          Andre; Hey where’s the ‘miracle’ vaccine for the new global disease known as ‘incurable’ Auris candida??????

          https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/06/health/drug-resistant-candida-auris.html?module=inline

          DEADLY GERMS, LOST CURES

          A Mysterious Infection, Spanning the Globe in a Climate of Secrecy
          The rise of Candida auris embodies a serious and growing public health threat: drug-resistant germs.

          • McFlock 13.1.1.1.1

            I’m not andre, fool.

            Where’s the “alternative therapy” for it?

          • Andre 13.1.1.1.2

            Pro tip for plonkers: if you want to reply to someone, hit the reply button in the box around the comment you want to reply to, not the next comment.

            Why is there no vaccine against candida auris? Dunno, could be lots of reasons.

            Might be because it’s a kind of organism that’s very difficult to develop a vaccine against. Off the top of my head I can’t think of any yeast diseases we actually do have a vaccine against. Most successful vaccines are against viral diseases. Organisms that are more complex are generally harder to develop vaccines against. Hence no effective vaccines against malaria or giardia or guinea worm or gonorrhea or syphilis or ….

            Might be because it hasn’t been a big enough threat (and market) to get the attention of vaccine developers.

            Might be because its emergence has been recent enough there just hasn’t been enough time.

            Might be any combo or all of the above or other factors I haven’t mentioned. Asking why there isn’t a specific vaccine reminds of the CEO who once asked why we couldn’t develop something to spray on the outside of golf club shafts to tune the flex characteristics. I had to tell him the only unobtainium mine in the world had shut down cause there was an explosion. (Shortly thereafter I was seeking alternative employment)

            • Psycho Milt 13.1.1.1.2.1

              Most successful vaccines are against viral diseases.

              That alone was enough to answer Cleangreen’s ridiculous question, which was on a par with “If you’re so smart, how come you haven’t cured cancer yet?”

              • Andre

                Yeah, if I was only trying to respond to cleangreen I probably would have left it there. Or probably not bothered at all, the question was so self-evidently ridiculous. I’m well aware that many commenters here are neither persuadable nor educable.

                But when I respond to nutters, it’s usually because there may be something in that topic of interest to a broader audience of silent but interested readers so a fuller answer might be worthwhile. Or sometimes I’ll respond just for the lolz.

          • higherstandard 13.1.1.1.3

            1. It’s not incurable.
            2. To the best of my knowledge no vaccines have been developed against fungal infections.

        • One Two 13.1.1.2

          I manually input my credentials into the name and email fields, as a simple security measure to not have sign in data cached on devices…

          At times, due to the email address, which you can’t see , a character becomes inverted…leading to the creation of a new avatar…

          At least two possibly three avatars are in the system…

          Nothing in it, McFlock…keep throwing your childish comments …

          What’s the failure rate of the flu shot you like to talk about getting?

          Edit:
          Were you able to understand the earlier question…if you read all available vaccine package inserts (FDA site) you can get the answer to the question…

          • McFlock 13.1.1.2.1

            lol okay, whatevs. You screwed up your ID because you’re paranoid that people will really give a crap about who you are.

            You’re not that much of a threat to the system, neo.

            As for vaccines, the proof is in the pudding. Maybe they guessed wrong this year, meaning the models were off and its the wrong strains in the shot. But frankly a sore arm with one in a million odds of a serious adverse reaction… hell, I’d take a 90% failure rate. No harm, no foul. But I seem to recall flu vaccines tend to be a few times that – nowhere near 90% like with some other conditions, but good enough to completely protect a lot of people and lessen the symptoms in others. It’s biggest advantage is to lower the burden on the health system from avoidable illness. I.e. fewer people plonked in ED hallways.

            But I can’t be bothered doing your homework for you. Besides, I’d be surprised if they measured efficacy against placebo outright each and every time – the ethics of denying someone healthcare like that, even with consent, are long and debatable. They probably just compare with previous strains (and you might be able to follow that testing chain back to the original placebo trials), and do after-market evaluation of cases, prevalence, immunisation status, and of course any adverse events.

            • One Two 13.1.1.2.1.1

              You screwed up your ID because you’re paranoid that people will really give a crap about who you are

              How would inverting email field characters give away who I am ?

              You saw the handle name..no change…

              And if you reckon I use an identifiable email address…well you don’t understand digital security…or vaccines…eh

              Edit.

              Keep replying and I’ll break down your uninformed comments one at a time…

              Or run off…like Joe and Andre…

              • joe90

                We live in your head, dude.

                • marty mars

                  Yep weeze and poos has finally lost it. Really when analysed they had very little to add or offer anyway save insults puffed by rhetoric. Ah well onwards and upwards lol

                  • One Two

                    Post the certs of your kids vaccinations…

                    Or just admit you were mouthing off…

                    You still are…

                    • marty mars

                      Got caught sockpuppeting but so useless can’t even front up – so surprising lol

                    • One Two []

                      Front up…for what, marty?

                      Explain how I am using sock puppet accounts…under thr same handle…

                      And admit that you’re full of shit…or post the certs…

                      Go on…

                    • The Al1en

                      Wouldn’t an incorrectly entered email address result in the post going to moderation?

                    • One Two []

                      Correct…and that did happen the first time…and was released…I’d guess because the mods see the inverted characters..

                      So now if the same email field characters are inverted when I manually enter it…the other avatar appears…

                    • marty mars

                      Fair enough it seems like a mistake rather than deliberate. Sorry if you were offended by my comment.

                    • McFlock

                      Hang on, that’s very interesting. For it to appear and then get deleated (for my reply to end up on the floor), the comment must have had a wrong email, gone into moderation, and been released inside ten minutes, for onetwo to be able to then delete it and rewrite it with the correct email.

                      Gosh, how efficient the mods were that time.

                • One Two

                  Joe…you’re really lost…I’ll explain for you..

                  You ran away… I repeat that statement that you ran away…and you reply..again..
                  3rd time at least…avoiding the question…still..

                  I’m in your head…that’s why you keep coming back…

                  Such and angry and unhealthy little group…you guys are…

              • McFlock

                Why are you worried about digital security at TS? Anyone tracking you IRL already knows you’re a fucking nutbar.

                • One Two

                  Digital security is not limited to a single instance or web-site…broaden your view …bro…

                  Lashing out as you do is base level, sandpit behaviour…childish really…

                  All highly toxic…abusive, innefective…failing…

                  Just like vaccines…eh!

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    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
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    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
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