Open mike 09/12/2015

108 comments on “Open mike 09/12/2015 ”

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1. her 1

   9 December 2015 at 7:26 am

   How the english do it
   http://imgur.com/OhRfPNE
   • DH 1.1

     9 December 2015 at 8:32 am

     Notice it says indirect taxes such as VAT aren’t included, meaning it’s completely false and just propaganda.

     National push similar lies, English is keen on his fictional ‘nett taxpayers’ spin.

     People in general are not good with percentages & averages and some politicians are rather ruthless in exploiting that weakness.
   • Molly 1.2

     9 December 2015 at 9:37 am

     Mark Hansen’s Where Are My Taxes? was a good simple tool for a basic idea of NZ govt income and expenditure.

     Unfortunately, it has not been updated for a couple of years, would be an interesting comparison. Although, details are often the place where the true costs and benefits lie, and this keeps them hidden.
     • DH 1.2.1

       9 December 2015 at 10:01 am

       That is a good tool Molly. It’s a pity he adds per-capita calculations which are pointless and meaningless, it just invites political manipulation and misinterpretation of the numbers.
2. The Chairman 2

   9 December 2015 at 7:42 am

   Calls for a public holiday to commemorate those who died in the New Zealand Land Wars.

   Key doesn’t believe the idea would be “massively supported”

   Thoughts?
   • Draco T Bastard 2.1

     9 December 2015 at 9:37 am

     I think it would be a good idea. Help people to remember our history. Key doesn’t like the idea because it goes against the false narrative that he’s been building up.
     • The Chairman 2.1.1

       9 December 2015 at 11:15 pm

       It’s long overdue in my opinion.
   • Molly 2.2

     9 December 2015 at 9:53 am

     I moved to Franklin about a decade ago, and was introduced to a surprisingly old-fashioned racism.

     When the 150th anniversary of the NZ Wars took place, the focus locally was overwhelmingly on the remembrance of settlers and soldiers, although we attended the memorial at Rangiriri which was organised by Tainui, (unfortunately missed the reenactment) and got there in time for the speeches.

     Local history in this area is predominantly skewed in favour of colonial and settler remembrances and places importance on their experiences.

     A local attempt to create a remembrance event acknowledging both sides of the conflict, resulted in tangata whenua reluctant participation but instigated outright hostility from people who wanted to exclude any reference to the dispersed tribes who had their land confiscated.

     Key’s modus operandi is to poll on items he has no clue on, or no vested interest in. In this case he might be right – there would not be massive support.

     But that indicates a problem in itself with NZers relationship with their own history, and should be addressed.

     As for an extra public holiday. Well, a fair number of waged workers often don’t even manage to get the existing ones off consistently. All for it.
     • Kevin 2.2.1

       9 December 2015 at 4:12 pm

       The flag debate has been a classic case-in-point. Anything that vaguely refers to the tangata whenua or maori culture does not stand a chance.

       New Zealand is no better than Australia when it comes to recognition of its cultural history.
   • Grindlebottom 2.3

     9 December 2015 at 10:13 am

     I think NZ history including the New Zealand/Land Wars should be compulsory in schools. The land wars were complicated & there were several, picking a suitable day would be tricky and I think a Land Wars commemoration day would always be politically charged & divisive. Teach the history, continue the treaty settlements and associated apologies, and keep Waitangi Day.
   • Rosie 2.4

     9 December 2015 at 11:20 am

     Yes, a public holiday to honour the NZ wars is appropriate. It’s a chapter of warfare in our history and should be acknowledged. Many of us may have either settler or Maori ancestors who were involved. (I have, on both sides).
     We commemorate war in the form of ANZAC day so we should at least acknowledge local loss of life in the name of war.

     I also think we should drop this whole guy fawkes thing. Sure it’s not a public holiday but its a commemoration that isn’t relevant to us. If people still want to get kicks from seeing and hearing stuff being blown up we could move the fireworks aspect of guy fawkes to Matariki, in autumn, a time of meaningful celebration. Public demo’s only, no sales of fireworks.

     Key has an opinion for sure but it’s not necessarily a reliable one. I mean, flag referendum anyone? Hardly going great guns is it? And he was adamant that we would all be right behind a change of flag………..so what he says doesn’t really matter.
     • BM 2.4.1

       9 December 2015 at 11:35 am

       He was probably hoping for a few more, but it’s still not too bad.

       http://www.elections.org.nz/events/referendums-new-zealand-flag-0/voting-first-referendum/voting-statistics

       The first referendum is about choosing the favorite alternative flag, I’m sure 1.2-1.3 million people is more than enough to pick the correct one.
       • Draco T Bastard 2.4.1.1

         9 December 2015 at 1:12 pm

         The first referendum is about choosing the favorite alternative flag

         No it wasn’t. It was about building momentum for a change of flag which is why choosing the flag went before the decision to change the flag.
         • BM 2.4.1.1.1

           9 December 2015 at 3:48 pm

           Government: New Zealanders, do you want to change the flag?

           The People: Not sure, sort of depends on what sort of flags are being offered as a alternative?. If it’s something we like, yeah why not !.
           • Draco T Bastard 2.4.1.1.1.1

             9 December 2015 at 4:32 pm

             Ah, no. It was more like:

             National: We want to change the flag because we’ve destroyed NZ’s credibility hows you think NZers?

             NZers: Fuck off arseholes and leave our flag alone.
             • BM …

               9 December 2015 at 5:13 pm

               Not sure why this is so fucking difficult for some people.

               If you want to keep the flag, vote for it in the second referendum.

               If it loses, so be it, the people have spoken, democracy has been served.

               And a thank you to John Key for giving people the opportunity.
               • Draco T Bastard …

                 9 December 2015 at 5:38 pm

                 Why is it that RWNJs don’t get that the second question should have been asked first?

                 Instead we got manipulation from National and the RWNJs getting upset that the psychopaths are being called on it.

                 Oh, wait…
       • Rosie 2.4.1.2

         9 December 2015 at 2:50 pm

         Not even a 40% turnout – not bad? Not great though is it? And lets wait to see how many of those votes are informal ones, those votes that have have been deliberately spoiled as a way of sending a message to Key.

         I was fairly conservative with the spoiling of my ballot and went with the advice of putting a X in each box and marking the paper with K.O.F. Mr R wanted to be more creative so he printed out little troll faces,

         http://www.reactionface.info/sites/default/files/images/1287666826226.png

         and glued them in the boxes. So sweet. Key, after all is trolling us by having two referendums (see Draco’s point below) so why not troll him back!
         • Karen 2.4.1.2.1

           9 December 2015 at 3:47 pm

           I went with an x in every box while my partner went for a 6 for the 5 choices.

           My guess is that there will be quite a few informals.
           • Rosie 2.4.1.2.1.1

             9 December 2015 at 5:01 pm

             I’ve been informally polling folks I know about how they voted and have been pleasantly surprised at the number who went with the X option, even among the Nat voters I know. I agree it’s likely there will be more informal votes than normal.
     • Sacha 2.4.2

       9 December 2015 at 8:07 pm

       Agree about Matariki. And let’s ditch Queens Birthday which is entirely meaningless to most New Zealanders by now, surely.
   • Smilin 2.5

     9 December 2015 at 4:52 pm

     None by Key obviously but an expanded history curriculum would be an advantage to the fact that we have a larger number of people now in this country who havent been here long who say they want to stay or would that be misconstrued by this govt as a move to the left and a strength for the Republican movement
3. Gavin 3

   9 December 2015 at 7:57 am

   Here’s more interesting background about iPredict, currently being wound down. It appears there were two Professors of Economics backing the site, both from a fairly right-wing perspective.

   http://www.viclink.co.nz/blog/493224

   “iPredict is a joint venture between Viclink and the Victoria University-based New Zealand Institute for the Study of Competition and Regulation (ISCR). Established primarily as a research tool, iPredict is now a wholly-owned subsidiary of Viclink”.
   Posted: Tue 19 Nov 2013

   Who we are: (out of date): https://www.ipredict.co.nz/app.php?do=about_us

   “iPredict was established in 2008, shortly before the General Election that year, as a market-based political and economic forecasting system. iPredict was more accurate than 15 of the 19 polls published in the run up to the election that year – not bad for our first eight weeks in operation.
   Today iPredict has over 5,000 traders, and has launched over 1500 contracts. We have been fortunate enough to be featured in every mainstream media outlet in New Zealand. We’re a place you can turn your opinion and what you know into cash.
   iPredict Ltd is owned by Victoria Link Ltd, or “Viclink”, the commercial arm of Victoria University of Wellington. Its Board of Directors consists of Prof. Neil Quigley (Chairman) (replaced by Kate McGrath 2015), Prof. Lewis Evans and Ian MacIntosh.
   Full Companies Office information can be found here. (Companies Office)

   iPredict’s bankers are National Bank, lawyers are Chapman Tripp, and its PR and marketing consultants are Exceltium Ltd.
   iPredict is authorised as a futures dealer by the Financial Markets Authority.
   Trader funds are held in a trust account in the name of Predictions Clearing Limited, a subsidiary of iPredict Limited”.

   An interview with part-time staff members:

   http://idealog.co.nz/venture/2015/11/cashing-out-prediction-market-ipredict-closing-its-virtual-doors-maybe-opens-window

   Four staff members? But they don’t compile regular media reports or even prepare the reports usually. Exceltium does it, or did it formerly. This is a part-time job for four people who are usually working on Viclink projects by the sound of it.

   “Institute for the Study of Competition and Regulation
   Founded in 1998 and closed in 2015, the Institute for the Study of Competition and Regulation (ISCR) was an independent, nonprofit research institute located at Victoria University of Wellington’s Pipitea Campus. Funding of its activities was provided by members, project work, and research grants.
   The primary objectives of ISCR research were to assist in understanding:
   • how markets and organisations operate
   • how markets provide appropriate incentives and disciplines for organisations
   • the limitations of markets, and the role of regulation in addressing these limitations
   • the importance of property rights and institutional structures in facilitating effectiveness of markets, organisations, competition, and regulation in New Zealand
   The Victoria University Library has collated a searchable repository of articles written by ISCR researchers, and its Competition and Regulation Times newsletter.
   http://www.victoria.ac.nz/vbs/centresandinstitutes/institutes

   http://researcharchive.vuw.ac.nz/handle/10063/1827

   Emeritus Professor Lewis Evans (retired or semi-retired).

   http://www.victoria.ac.nz/sef/about/staff/lew-evans

   Included in the work of Lew Evans is a central role in advising the government of the day (around 2010), over the selling down of some of the Electricity SOES, presumably in the name of increased competition being good for the economy. Also in 2010, the Electricity Authority was formed, with Carl Hansen as CEO. Hansen is a right-wing economist also. He advised the Business Roundtable on policy, and more recently can be heard on radio and TV defending the status quo, which has delivered expensive power to the masses, considering most of it is hydro generated for 2c a kWhr using old dams and turbines. We would have been better served strategically with the old ECNZ – no structural changes were necessary in a small place like NZ.

   These are just some of the forces shaping more neoliberal policy in NZ, attempting to keep National in control at all costs.

   In the case of iPredict, Victoria University (through Victoria Link) seem to be belatedly forcing it to close down over time. Prof Lewis and Prof Quigley have jointly no doubt been the driving force behind the site, but now their sway with the board is greatly diminished.

   Salient had an interesting article about it.

   http://salient.org.nz/2014/09/ipredict-or-ipromote/

   This great result has to be mainly sheeted home to Nicky Hager’s book, “Dirty Politics”, which highlighted the iPredict site for the travesty it had become.
   • RedBaronCV 3.1

     9 December 2015 at 8:27 am

     Very interesting. I was at an econ thing at Vic around start up time and at the end of the session some professor appeared and talked about getting into ipredict. Thought encouraging broke students to take part was a little odd at the time. Had a look but it was appeared fixed so left it
     • Gavin 3.1.1

       9 December 2015 at 9:15 am

       Of course those students will be out earning by now, and are possibly trading on the site, bringing up the numbers. More recently, a younger Robert Quigley has been funded to work on the successor to iPredict, called PredictIT. He’s most likely the son of Neil Quigley, and the only good thing about PredictIT is that this time it’s more heavily regulated, the owners of the site have to be sure of everyone’s identity and restrict their spending power properly.

       So perhaps they have been thinking about closing down iPredict for a while, but in any case it’s obvious to me that those running the site for most of its life, wanted certain outcomes in the reports. They found ways of ensuring that was the case.
   • Sacha 3.2

     9 December 2015 at 8:01 pm

     They were shut down because of NZ being forced to strengthen our money laundering regulations to meet international standards. Nothing to do with Hager.
     • Gavin 3.2.1

       9 December 2015 at 8:37 pm

       Sacha, they could simply comply with the new rules, and keep the site going. Viclink have chosen not to do that, because it would undermine the multiple accounts the Right are using to control the stocks. Plus it’s not a money-making venture by the sound of it. But they were perfectly happy to run it and make a loss before, as long as National always looked like winning the next election. If those participant rules were changed, and if the press reporting was done regularly by an unbiased party, we’d then see a fairer view of political opinion in NZ at the moment.

       I challenge them to do just that while they wind it down – how about a level playing field for once, VicLink?
       • Sacha 3.2.1.1

         9 December 2015 at 10:26 pm

         I have no basis to disagee with you. I was merely noting that it had nothing to do with Hager’s revelations.
4. The lost sheep 4

   9 December 2015 at 8:27 am

   So The Venezuelan People have given the Right Wing MUD (Love it!) Party a ‘super majority’ of 112 seats of 167. That gives the National Assembly a widespread mandate for significant change.

   But. The new assembly does not come in until January, and the current assembly sits for a couple more weeks. A real test of the Socialists commitment to democracy eh?
   What odds on some creative law making before the old assembly is disbanded…

   And here’s a classic example of the new narrative to explain failure that is becoming entrenched in the Left worldwide..
   http://www.telesurtv.net/english/analysis/The-Causes-and-Consequences-of-Venezuelan-Election-Results-20151207-0002.html
   Yup. It was because of..
   ‘Intense disinformation by the media’ / The voters aren’t ‘concerned or aware’, they just want to vote against the government because of the media / The voters don’t ‘remember’ what things used to be like / The opposition attracted the ‘less politically aware social sectors’ (i.e. the voters are stupid / selfish) / There is a conspiracy of course ‘the economic war’ / ‘International powers resources’ have supported the opposition….(All sounds like a normal day at TS eh?)

   It’s the voters, the media, and conspiring forces that are to blame. What a pity something can’t be done about them. Hey, there’s an idea….(sarc)
   • One Anonymous Bloke 4.1

     9 December 2015 at 8:52 am

     Rejoice! Sheep’s world is whole and true and not at all indicative of Quisling treachery and authoritarian submission. Rah rah rah, we’re going to smash the oiks!
   • maui 4.2

     9 December 2015 at 9:05 am

     You didn’t mention the oil price in any of that gloating. Funny that.
   • millsy 4.3

     9 December 2015 at 9:34 am

     Well looks like the Venezuelan elite will be kicking the poor from Jan onwards. Privatisation of health and education, here we come.
     • reason 4.3.1

       9 December 2015 at 10:26 am

       It was the chavez government who brought in free education and health for the poor ……. the rich u.s.a backed factions in Venezuela will just return it to how it was pre-chavez

       The u.s.a is a rich developed country that does not provide decent humane state health care for its own citizens ………………… it can hardly let poor south american governments show them up.

       The u.s.a has previously backed a military overthrow of the Chavez government ….. a true failure for democracy that ‘the lost sheep’ seems either ignorant or approving of ……..

       p.s everyone else notice that Gosman always calls the elected Venezuela government a ‘regime’????? ……………. If Gosman or sheep head want to learn about real regimes I suggest they watch ‘the war on democracy’ http://johnpilger.com/videos/the-war-on-democracy

       The u.s.a has supported and backed many murderous regimes in south America ….
       • savenz 4.3.1.1

         9 December 2015 at 10:28 am

         @Reason +1
   • Bearded Git 4.4

     9 December 2015 at 11:14 am

     17 years in power is not bad for the Chavistas when you are up against the CIA etc……and Maduro is still the president and has executive power…go and watch “The Revolution Will Not Be Televised’ (doco) and tell me the people don’t love Chavez and what he still stands for.
5. Gavin 5

   9 December 2015 at 8:31 am

   More good background: Matt Burgess, an economics student, had the original idea that was supported by the two Professors and Viclink (funding). By about 2012 Burgess left there for a job with National’s Bill English, and Exceltium had control of iPredict for a period until it was in theory brought back under control of Viclink. I know for a fact that it was still being meddled with before the report times, by whoever was doing the reports in 2014, and that was someone at Exceltium.

   So this blog post by Viclink only tells part of the truth.

   http://www.viclink.co.nz/blog/598456
6. mikesh 6

   9 December 2015 at 9:03 am

   Why does the “feeds” column often have two, and sometimes three, identical feeds?
   • Once was Tim 6.1

     9 December 2015 at 9:47 am

     One for Rebecca Kitteridge, the other for Una Jagose, and the third for all those they’re ‘trying to protect from themselves’
     • savenz 6.1.1

       9 December 2015 at 10:42 am

       You would think that Kitteridge might draw attention to the risks of a free trade deal with Saudi Arabia:)

       Nope in some sort of Absurdism, Key and his cronies are throwing as much taxpayers cash at Hamood Al-Ali Al-Khalaf a Saudi Businessman and not very effective sheep farmer to try to bring as much Saudi free movement here as possible. Security risk anyone? Lets work out what these trade deals really mean, free movement of nationals, free working visas of nationals, reduction of border controls on imports, selling off our country to foreign nationals….. Being able to be sued under ISDS by businessman who have more money than the government….

       Maybe the NSA checklists the GCSB and SIS follow only have unmarried muslim brides who in spite of surveillance have been found to still be suspicious due to their marital status! Good work there 99, another 8 million in the mail! She could get a job for Trump at this rate!

       You could not make this stuff up.
7. ianmac 7

   9 December 2015 at 10:52 am

   “The Islamic Women’s Council says it has “no knowledge or indication” of Kiwi women becoming jihadi brides, despite suggestions a growing number are heading to Syria to back Islamic State.

   SIS director Rebecca Kitteridge revealed a rise in the number of young New Zealand women heading to Iraq and Syria when addressing Parliament’s intelligence and security committee on Tuesday.

   Prime Minister John Key, who chairs the committee, said after Kitteridge’s remarks that women were known to have taken part in “weddings” before heading to Islamic State (IS) stronghold Syria, which pointed to the fact they were going as jihadi brides.”

   “All she (Kitteridge) said was that the number had been growing and because it was a war-torn area, that was a concern.

   “We don’t know the ethnicity of these women, we don’t actually know the religious background of these women, whether they just converted before they went, whether they converted at all, and we certainly don’t know what they’re doing while they’re over there.”

   Well. John can invent anything he likes. Who cares? I do.
   http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/74893140/islamic-womens-council-not-aware-of-any-kiwi-jihadi-brides
   • Draco T Bastard 7.1

     9 December 2015 at 11:11 am

     You mean that John Key lied again?
     • ianmac 7.1.1

       9 December 2015 at 1:36 pm

       Not lying? Nah. Just twisting the facts a tiny little bit then sniggering at the way that media quote and embellish whatever he says. His private pleasure instead of stroking girls’ hair.
       • Chooky 7.1.1.1

         9 December 2015 at 9:55 pm

         …or something else
   • emergency mike 7.2

     9 December 2015 at 12:52 pm

     John Key will you pleaz save us from the jihadi brides?!?!

     They are taking our women! What’s next?! O lawd… the children!!
     • emergency mike 7.2.1

       9 December 2015 at 4:46 pm

       Jihadi Brides Threat Level Update: John Key has clarified the numbers regarding the crisis.

       Rebecca Kitteridge had said that the number of these potential ticking time bombs was ‘fewer than a dozen’. While she has no idea what they are doing there, what is known for sure is that they went went to that part of the world, and they are definitely female.

       But Key has subsequently said that a belief exists, an actual belief thingee, that the number of this fewer than a dozen that have in fact married Islamic militants is somewhere in the magnitude of “one or two”.

       Now that might seem a little low at first, but bear in mind that a) that’s one or two more brides than our SIS team had to monitor before, b) Key didn’t say which end of the one or two range the true figure is closer to, and c) my calculator informs me that this represents an infinity percent increase in kiwi jihadi brides. If this rate continues, every female in New Zealand will be a jihadi bride before I finish typing this sentence. Everyone is probably already dead. National is probably still polling 50%.
       • marty mars 7.2.1.1

         9 December 2015 at 5:36 pm

         +1 and lol – key is a lying manipulative vain dim dickhead
       • Grindlebottom 7.2.1.2

         9 December 2015 at 5:43 pm

         Actually that whole briefing (if the brief video clip was anything to go by) was rather amateurish and highly speculative. Everybody seemed to be vaguely “sort of” agreeing with anything anyone else suggested.
8. Draco T Bastard 8

   9 December 2015 at 11:09 am

   Bernard’s Top 10: The rise and rise of the robots; Will jobs be created faster than they’re destroyed?; Is this time different?

   Well worth a look and the video on it is worth watching.
9. Morrissey 9

   9 December 2015 at 11:12 am

   Drama therapy to help drone assassins cope with their feelings of guilt;
   No drama therapy, though, for their thousands of victims.
   Nine to Noon, RNZ National, Wednesday 9 December 2015

   After 10 o’clock, Kathryn Ryan interviewed (if that’s the word for sitting back and letting someone say the most contentious things without contesting a word of it) the Brooklyn-based theatre director Bryan Doerries. It was billed on the RNZ site like this….

   How ancient Greek tragedies can teach very modern lessons: Brooklyn-based theatre director, Bryan Doerries, is the founder of the ‘Theatre of War’ project, and the ‘Outside of the Wire’ company which presents ancient Greek plays to returned soldiers, addicts, prison communities, and victims of natural disasters. He argues that the great tragedies of the Greeks can help a contemporary audience grapple with everything from the trauma of being in a conflict zone to end-of life care.

   To date, over 60,000 service members, veterans, and their families have attended and participated in Theatre of War performances worldwide.

   Bryan Doerries latest book, is called The Theatre of War: What Ancient Greek Tragedies Can Teach Us Today.

   The interesting part of Doerries’ talk came when he told of the immense psychological suffering of drone operators who had “hit the wrong target”. This implies, of course, that there are “right” targets, and that the United States regime’s massive program of terror in Yemen, Afghanistan, Iraq, and now stepped up dramatically in Syria, is something other than illegal and condemned by all reputable human rights organizations. As I suspected, there was zero consideration of the victims of these conscience-wracked drone killers.

   And, of course, Kathryn Ryan failed to raise a single objection to interview Doerries’ smooth flow of talk. I sent her the following email….

   After Bryan Doerries, will you interview someone who works with the victims?

   Dear Kathryn,

   To hear Bryan Doerries expressing such compassion for the operators of assassination drones, apparently stricken with guilt because they hit the “wrong” targets, was a deeply troubling experience.

   Have your producers tried to get in touch with any of the thousands of people in Yemen, Afghanistan and Iraq whose family members have been killed by these conscience-racked American drone operators?

   That would make for an interesting interview.

   Yours sincerely,

   Morrissey Breen
   Northcote Point
   • Grindlebottom 9.1

     9 December 2015 at 11:24 am

     Pity both she & Bryan Doerries no doubt aren’t aware of this:
     http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2014/nov/24/-sp-us-drone-strikes-kill-1147
     • ianmac 9.1.1

       9 December 2015 at 1:29 pm

       The survivors of drone attacks must really love and admire the USA. Hearts and minds must be won over – or not.
10. Puckish Rogue 10

    9 December 2015 at 11:33 am

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=11558110

    This is what happens when large parts of the voting public feel disenfranchised I guess
11. Puckish Rogue 11

    9 December 2015 at 11:36 am

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11557932

    No one has been able to point to a single instance where a gun has been gained illegitimately through the mail order system. It was also later revealed the rifle was bought using the manufactured identity of a police officer, required by law to authorise and approve the mail order form.

    Its not looking good Ms Allan, nest time she may want to consider following the same laws as everyone else
    • Draco T Bastard 11.1

      9 December 2015 at 4:40 pm

      No one has been able to point to a single instance where a gun has been gained illegitimately through the mail order system.

      Actually, we can point to one – it was a journalist and she told us about it. And what she did was still in the public interest.

      Going on probabilities after that it’s highly likely that there’s quite a few out there that have been gained illegitimately but the records don’t show that because the records aren’t accurate.
      • Grindlebottom 11.1.1

        9 December 2015 at 5:37 pm

        Greg O’Connor’s done a good job of keeping a low profile on this. He seems to have been the one who brought the situation to HDPA’s attention, apparently via a radio broadcast. Its all gone a bit mucky now. I was expecting him at some point to show up with some evidence it had actually happened before. Maybe he still will?
12. Morrissey 12

    9 December 2015 at 11:50 am

    UK veterans throw away medals to protest Syria strikes
    9:39 AM Wednesday Dec 9, 2015

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/video.cfm?c_id=2&gal_cid=2&gallery_id=156409

    More ex-soldiers with a conscience….
    http://mondoweiss.net/2014/09/refuseniks-occupations-underbelly
13. marty mars 13

    9 December 2015 at 11:57 am

    I’d call this a ‘scrapping the bottom of the barrel’ argument.

    “How about sugar production? Not only are animals poisoned during the growing stage but also millions of small animals are killed during harvest of the sugar cane.

    Some studies have shown that more animals die to produce a vegan meal than a regular meal that includes meat and dairy. Why is the life of a mouse not worth the same as a calf?

    Of course I eat these foods as well as meat, so you could argue I contribute to even more animals dying.

    But it’s not me trying to convince you to convert to veganism to save ANY animals dying.”

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/farming/opinion/74894316/how-many-animals-died-for-your-meal

    Anything rather than address the real cruelty that our dairy industry thrives off – oh no that’s too hard, too close to home.
    • Rosie 13.1

      9 December 2015 at 2:39 pm

      That article was a real yawn. Agree, that dairy farmer is definitely scrapping the bottom of the barrel with that one. Pretty desperate really. He might be a buddy of Andrew Hoggard of Fed Farmers who said on tv3 on Sunday night that “it’s all a vegan conspiracy”.

      Note how the media have really focused on damage control and the “threat to the economy” and have barely reported on the actual issue of animal cruelty itself – this was their opportunity to investigate but instead they take the easy path of going with the government and industry’s predictable hollow defences.

      The msm have been appallingly biased and lazy in their reporting.
      • Draco T Bastard 13.1.1

        9 December 2015 at 4:44 pm

        +1
      • marty mars 13.1.2

        9 December 2015 at 5:33 pm

        + 1 Rosie – good comment
14. adam 14

    9 December 2015 at 12:21 pm

    If anyone from Auckland wants to do something about the housing crisis, in a more active manner. No hand wringers please.

    https://www.facebook.com/groups/968941989813586/
15. Whispering Kate 15

    9 December 2015 at 12:58 pm

    Fran O’Sullivan in her latest comment in the Herald is chatting about Paula Benefit and Crusher Collins. Usually I can read Fran’s stuff and although I don’t always think she is right in her musings I have always thought she was capable of rational thought. In her comment she quotes Paula as being “like Key, she does not often lose her cool”. Blimey dick what planet is she on – every time I see Key in the house he is a ranting abusive man out of control. Comparing her with Key who often loses “his” cool – where does she get this from? When he isn’t abusive and spinning his usual rubbish he has a pair of dead eyes which I suppose is a passive type of cool. Who knows, for once she has me stumped.
    • Anne 15.1

      9 December 2015 at 5:14 pm

      I think I know where Fran O’Sullivan is coming from. I posted the following comment in relation to another post yesterday which is relevant here:

      I am reminded of the oft quoted meme that Winston Peters learnt his M.O. at the knees of Rob Muldoon. There’s no doubt Basher Bennett is learning hers at the Key knees. So, should it succeed, we can expect a continuation of shallow, manipulative lying with a few drops of pure spite thrown in for good measure? We already know Madam is capable of the latter – and I reference her behaviour towards Carmel Sepuloni during the 2011 election campaign in the old seat of Waitakere, as well as the bashing of the beneficiaries who dared to criticise her.

      There are similarities, and reports that she was being groomed by Key for high political office go back to Key’s first term as PM. Even her responses in the debating chamber have a ‘Key’nesian ring to them.
16. savenz 16

    9 December 2015 at 1:06 pm

    Obama lying???

    “WTO Orders Sanctions Unless U.S. Cuts Consumer Labels, Disproving Obama TPP Claims

    The ruling is a nightmare for the Obama administration’s uphill battle to build support for the controversial Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP). It makes clear that trade agreements can — and do — threaten even the most favored U.S. public interest safeguards.

    Claims to the contrary have been a mainstay of the White House effort to overcome TPP opposition from an unprecedentedly diverse coalition of organizations and members of Congress. That opposition was only solidified when the recent release of the final TPP text revealed the pact was even worse than expected.

    The massive text largely reflects the interests of the 500 official U.S. trade advisors representing corporate interests that had privileged access while the public, Congress and the press were shut out the secretive process: investor privileges that make it easier to offshore American jobs to low wage countries and retrograde terms that expose U.S. food safety, environmental, Internet freedom, health and other safeguards to attack and rollback.”

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lori-wallach/wto-orders-sanctions-unle_b_8748594.html
    • RedBaronCV 16.1

      9 December 2015 at 2:58 pm

      Why has Obama invested so much in TPPA? Mainly the democrats aren’t onside and he is relying quite heavily on the Republicans (house senate?) to attempt to get this past. He can’t be re-elected so why?
      • Colonial Viper 16.1.1

        9 December 2015 at 5:21 pm

        Post election board of directors positions.
    • Chooky 16.2

      9 December 2015 at 6:05 pm

      basically it is fascism by stealth and an attempt to legally sanction it

      the NZ Labour Party is not joining with NZF and the Greens to oppose it!

      …why not?

      ‘Flouting The Rules: Why has Andrew Little rejected a winning TPPA strategy for a guaranteed loser? ‘

      http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2015/10/14/flouting-the-rules-why-has-andrew-little-rejected-a-winning-tppa-strategy-for-a-guaranteed-loser/
17. savenz 17

    9 December 2015 at 1:09 pm

    In addition

    “The TPP would make the situation much worse. It includes constraints on food safety that extend beyond the WTO, roll back the environmental standards included even in George W. Bush’s trader pacts and would empower individual foreign corporations to directly launch attacks on public interest policies.”

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lori-wallach/wto-orders-sanctions-unle_b_8748594.html
18. Draco T Bastard 18

    9 December 2015 at 1:35 pm

    Watch Commander

    Nearly half of the people on the U.S. government’s widely shared database of terrorist suspects are not connected to any known terrorist group, according to classified government documents obtained by The Intercept.

    Of the 680,000 people caught up in the government’s Terrorist Screening Database—a watchlist of “known or suspected terrorists” that is shared with local law enforcement agencies, private contractors, and foreign governments—more than 40 percent are described by the government as having “no recognized terrorist group affiliation.” That category—280,000 people—dwarfs the number of watchlisted people suspected of ties to al Qaeda, Hamas, and Hezbollah combined.

    Pretty much guaranteed that people who terrorists and never will be are being watched covertly

    And:

    The CIA uses a previously unknown program, code-named Hydra, to secretly access databases maintained by foreign countries and extract data to add to the watchlists.

    We can pretty much guarantee that the US is spying on everyone including friends and allies.
    • DoublePlusGood 18.1

      9 December 2015 at 4:53 pm

      They really called it Hydra? Have they never read comic books?
19. Daphna 19

    9 December 2015 at 1:47 pm

    In 1949 the first Labour government introduced peacetime conscription, as part of its Cold War alliance with the United States. Here is a fascinating account by veteran left activist Murray Horton of the campaign against peacetime conscription led by people like watersiders’ union leader Jock Barnes:
    https://rdln.wordpress.com/2011/10/26/labour s-introduction-of-peacetime-conscription-and-the-fight-against-it/
20. Magisterium 20

    9 December 2015 at 1:49 pm

    Key Derangement Syndrome in full effect

    [lprent: Comment seems to have little to do with the post. Certainly provides no context to the post. Moved to OpenMike. ]
    • Northshoredoc 20.1

      9 December 2015 at 2:12 pm

      Almost needs its own DSM IV area code.
      • Wairua 20.1.1

        9 December 2015 at 3:18 pm

        What did you do your doctorate in ?
        • Northshoredoc 20.1.1.1

          9 December 2015 at 3:21 pm

          Doctoring.
          • Wairua 20.1.1.1.1

            9 December 2015 at 3:51 pm

            Having a quiet day ?
            • northshoredoc 20.1.1.1.1.1

              9 December 2015 at 4:20 pm

              Day off watching cricket.
              • Wairua …

                9 December 2015 at 4:28 pm

                .. must be a boring game.
                • northshoredoc …

                  9 December 2015 at 4:30 pm

                  Not at all, part of the beauty of cricket is you can enjoy it at the same time as having a chat or a read or commenting on the interwebs.
      • whateva next? 20.1.2

        9 December 2015 at 9:46 pm

        behind the times…DSM V is out
21. Rosie 21

    9 December 2015 at 2:11 pm

    Lols. The Standard Kitchen, Dunedin.

    Geez, there would be daily fights in the kitchen. Just as well P.Ure is no longer around. It would Vegans Vs. Carnivores fights galore over the menu.

    https://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Standard-Kitchen/903983092982085
    • Ad 21.1

      9 December 2015 at 2:46 pm

      Carnivores would eat the vegans.

      Break out the love; spooning leads to forking 🙂
      • Rosie 21.1.1

        9 December 2015 at 2:54 pm

        That was very funny. Ain’t nobody gonna love me though, I’m pescetarian, distrusted, misunderstood and disliked by all persuasions, left, right, and centre.
      • Puckish Rogue 21.1.2

        9 December 2015 at 3:20 pm

        Naah not enough meat on a vegans bones and all the supplements they need to take…I’ll stick to eating good ol’ roast beef raised kiwis thanks
    • greywarshark 21.2

      9 December 2015 at 3:26 pm

      There have been restaurants that attracted intrigued customers who went more to see how rude the waiters could be than the food. Ad could be good, has a nice line in chivvying. I liked the spooning and the forking.
    • lprent 21.3

      9 December 2015 at 3:41 pm

      I’ll have to stop in when I pass through there next.
      • Rosie 21.3.1

        9 December 2015 at 5:08 pm

        Maybe give us a report back 🙂
22. savenz 22

    9 December 2015 at 3:20 pm

    Some positive news…

    A surprising meeting with Fonterra and Greenpeace.
    http://www.greenpeace.org/new-zealand/en/blog/a-surprising-meeting-with-Fonterra/blog/55042/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=post&utm_term=Fonterra&utm_campaign=Forests&__surl__=IgSIA&__ots__=1449627227725&__step__=1

    on a different note, urban regeneration and social housing meets top British art prize

    http://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/architecture-design-blog/2015/may/12/assemble-turner-prize-2015-wildcard-how-the-young-architecture-crew-assemble-rocked-the-art-world?CMP=share_btn_fb
23. joe90 23

    9 December 2015 at 3:54 pm

    Why I like twitter.

    CJ Werleman
    ‏@cjwerleman

    You see how one terrorist shooting can radicalize Americans like Trump, but you can’t see how 10,000+ US bombs might radicalize Muslims?

    https://twitter.com/cjwerleman/status/673985855560663040
    • Rosie 23.1

      9 December 2015 at 5:07 pm

      +1
24. esoteric pineapples 24

    9 December 2015 at 3:58 pm

    Massey University Quotes of the Year all by men – http://thespinoff.co.nz/09-12-2015/media-are-new-zealands-quotes-of-the-year-really-all-by-men/
25. Ovid 25

    9 December 2015 at 4:12 pm

    So Little and Key have both made apologies to Parliament. Little over comments about the Speaker and Key over his comments that Labour backed rapists. I think whatever their reasons for apologising, it’s the right thing to do.

    There’s no way that Labour can force Carter out of the chair. They have to play with the hand they’re dealt and stoic resignation is probably the best way to handle Carter’s bias.

    Key’s comments were clearly over the top and a clear attempt to distract from Labour’s stirling work on NZers detained in Australia. Having his inelegant attempt at misdirection lingering wouldn’t help. I think Key has been hurt by it already, this probably helps to stem the bleeding.
    • DoublePlusGood 25.1

      9 December 2015 at 5:04 pm

      Little shouldn’t have apologised. It is quite clear that all of his statements were entirely correct.
      • marty mars 25.1.1

        9 December 2015 at 5:57 pm

        I agree – wtf were they thinking – key gets an ‘out’ and what, suddenly youknowwho is no longer playing favorites?

        “Key has repeatedly refused to apologise for the comment, going as far as to say he was “absolutely correct” to say it and didn’t regret his remarks.

        But it seems a deal was struck between Key and Labour “in the spirit of Christmas” after Opposition leader Andrew Little also decided to apologise for “unparliamentary” comments.”

        http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/74923038/john-key-and-andrew-little-strike-a-deal-in-the-spirit-of-christmas

        This bullshit is why I can’t vote for either of these 2 parties.
        • Chooky 25.1.1.1

          9 December 2015 at 9:48 pm

          +100…when the leaders of the supposed Opposition parties James Shaw and Andrew Little let Key off the hook….you know you have got trouble…the Opposition is either corrupted or loopy stupid

          you would never get Winston Peters doing this!..or Annette Sykes or Laila Harre or John Minto or I hope Hone Harawira
    • emergency mike 25.2

      9 December 2015 at 6:09 pm

      While any apology is better than none, Key couldn’t help mentioning that it was close to Christmas. What a guy. Hence Little’s ‘bloody red baron’ comment which I thought quite clever, even if ‘I will if you will’ apologies seems childish for both. Tacit admission that his ‘backing the rapists’ comment was a calculated political tactic? And what a sincere, moving 20 second apology speech it was.
      • whateva next? 25.2.1

        9 December 2015 at 9:44 pm

        I expect he’s already packed and ready for Hawaii
26. Mike the Savage One 26

    9 December 2015 at 8:34 pm

    The problem with the NZ left AND right is, there are too many cheap skates and quick comment making jerks, who do not even bother reading and studying stuff, it is first, quick impression, and decision and judgment, and then destroy the rest.

    So we have the society that NZers deserve, a dumb, ignorant, indifferent, selfish and unprincipled society (that is unless it involves the principle of serving yourself first).

    The truth no longer matters, quick and cheap scores by political players get more resonance than anything of substance that matters to others, e.g. most people, and some here, too many, on TS are no different to the ones on Kiwiblog, by judging and rubbishing and ignoring information that they should perhaps take note of.

    I am through with this country I once came to, I am through with NZ, I regret ever having come to this damned place.

    [lprent: Moved to OpenMike. FFS Stay on topic. ]
    • Pat 26.1

      9 December 2015 at 9:09 pm

      could be worse Mike……Donald Trump
27. North 27

    9 December 2015 at 8:46 pm

    Read this and then just go all hilarious.

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/dec/08/donald-trump-famous-muslims-us-history?utm_source=esp&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=GU+Today+main+NEW+H&utm_term=142452&subid=15166303&CMP=EMCNEWEML6619I2

    You couldn’t make Trump up could ya ?
    • Chooky 27.1

      9 December 2015 at 10:03 pm

      Donald Trump is a ginger…and so is David Cameron..say no more
28. Mike the Savage One 28

    9 December 2015 at 9:11 pm

    I am not surprised by people taking action such as this, not that I support it:

    [r0b: 2 videos removed]

    I have NO MORE FAITH AND HOPE IN THIS SHIT SOCIETY, FULL STOP!

    I DO NOT LIKE BUT DO NOT OBJECT TO THIS ACTION NOW:

    [r0b: 1 video removed]

    Hate me for it, I will not live much longer anyway, I chooose to pass a.s.a.p..

    [r0b: I understand your anger. But really don’t want those videos on the blog, sorry.]

    [lprent: Moved to OpenMike ]
29. Mike the Savage One 29

    9 December 2015 at 9:36 pm

    With the nonsense exposed above, is anybody seriously surprised at the success of radical Islam IsIS and what else we have? Maybe it is a curse that was asked for?

    Do not agree with and do not like this, the following, but the west and other vested interests keep funding it, there will be NO peace in Syria with this, and that adds to my disbelief of this shit system we have:
    

    [lprent: Moved to OpenMike ]
    • Mike the Savage One 29.1

      9 December 2015 at 9:54 pm

      I expect to be killed any time soon, as for the above, thanks for your attention.

      [lprent: Moved to OpenMike ]
30. Chooky 30

    9 December 2015 at 10:01 pm

    On J.P.Morgan bribes …All in the family ( cf mafia)….Bankster Fraud…and the Now crisis of social mobility

    Episode 846

    https://www.rt.com/shows/keiser-report/325067-episode-max-keiser-846/

    “In this episode of the Keiser Report, Max Keiser and Stacy Herbert discuss how it is that JP Morgan just happened to hire 222 friends and relatives of Chinese companies and politicians as the bank took these companies public in Hong Kong.

    In the second half, Max continues his interview with Liam Halligan of BNE.eu and the Telegraph about central bank policy, George Osborne’s long-term economic plans and Thomas Piketty’s so-called new book, Inequality.”
31. Mike the Savage One 31

    9 December 2015 at 11:23 pm

    They talk about suicide attacks, but YPG and others do the same:
    

    [lprent: Moved to OpenMike. Banned for a week for wasting my time. ]
32. Robby 32

    10 December 2015 at 12:11 am

    Still up Lynn? Just wanted to thank you for your work on Pete’s behalf, I’m going to have to take back almost half of the bad things I’ve said about you….Almost….

    [r0b: Don’t be getting all soft now. Remember, we are leftards, raving socialists, substandard, echo chamber etc etc. Sigh.]
33. Daphna 33

    10 December 2015 at 12:02 pm

    Union membership numbers in NZ are continuing to decline according to Victoria University’s annual report.

    Here’s an interesting discussion by veteran shopfloor union activist Don Franks on the way forward for workers and unions.
    https://rdln.wordpress.com/2013/12/08/which-way-forward-for-workers-and-unions/

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