Open mike 10/01/2024

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, January 10th, 2024 - 174 comments
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Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

174 comments on “Open mike 10/01/2024 ”

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  1. SPC 1
    10 January 2024 at 7:18 am

    When the New National Party (NNP) undresses itself in private, it is the Real National Party (RNP), the same as it was when it put on its latest NNP clothes.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/kahu/rob-campbell-theres-a-desperate-hunt-on-for-the-mythical-nnp/A74EKBZFDNB27NKFGG5XG4YO2A/

  2. Robert Guyton 2
    10 January 2024 at 8:11 am

    The Labour Government was criticised widely for "selling" its programmes poorly, especially 3 Waters.

    ""We're very worried that they seem to think there's something that needs to be changed. And we're not seeing what they're trying to fix at this stage. We don't understand why they need to do this," he said."

    This though, from NZEI Te Riu Roa president Mark Potter, is recent and was said in response to this NACTNZF Government's planned changes to the sex education curriculum.

    I guess the same people who lambasted Labour for the poor sales job, will be clamouring to decry the present Governments poor communications.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/506348/government-accused-of-conspiracy-thinking-in-changes-to-sex-ed

    • weka 2.1
      10 January 2024 at 9:00 am

      "A lot of it is very conspiracy-based thinking, and lots of claims about what schools are supposed to be doing that they just aren't. Some very untrue statements being made about what children being taught. So we are wondering, who are they pandering to with this kind of move?"

      My guess is that this is largely due to the No Debate stance around gender identity ideology. That's why we don't know what is going on, and it's why it's ended up playing out on social media among people that are often conservative, reactionary, or have abandoned the left and a committment to progressive values.

      My guess is based on watching exactly this dynamic play out in the UK and the US as well as other countries. GII (gender identity ideology) was rolled out in schools without consultation, and people who tried to ask questions about it were called bigots and shut down. That of course shut up the progressives who had concerns, because ostracisation via accusations of bigotry is a very strong tool among left liberals. The right, centrists and apolitical people care nearly as much and the result is that they are now in charge of the narrative, and in places like NZ that have a RW government and No Debate, they are in charge of policy and legislation now too.

      One of the things that is happening is that the right get to redefine not just GII but all of sex and sexuality education, and of course they're going to do that conservatively, because that is their values.

      This is an utter failure by the left. We cannot in any way complain about NACTF not being forthcoming with information, when the left has been running No Debate and ostracisation for years.

      There is some hope. In the UK, despite a Tory government there is also a strong grassroots gender critical feminist movement (GCF). Those women and men as allies span the whole spectrum of society from MPs and academics to mums and working people, who are socially liberal and who generally support trans people, but want limits on things like women's spaces and transitioning of children.

      So there is a tempering there of the push from the right. This is what should be happening in NZ. In the UK women and men lost jobs and careers over this, but stood up anyway. Fewer have done that in NZ, and we don't have the same kind of grassroots activism culture, so it's harder. It's leaving the power with the more conservative and reactionary people.

      The best thing the left could do right now is stop ostracising GCFs, and allow an open and wide debate about the issues that matter to people. There is no way to win progressive gains if we don't bring people along, and there is no way to win a war that seeks to remove the rights of women and children. We're in a stalemate. I don't expect the left do this, I expect them to carry on with the own goals until either NACTF fall apart or we are thrown into the next major crisis (climate, economic, oil).

      This is the worst possible time for the left to be failing to get to grips with the culture wars, but I think the base cause is the same as the crises, neoliberal capitalism and fear.

      • Grey Area 2.1.1
        10 January 2024 at 3:10 pm

        Thanks for the full names, Weka. wink

        But more importantly thank you for making me aware of the No Debate stance. I had sensed this approach but not been able to understand or articulate it.

        I felt it some years back when I realised that there had been a major shift in trans rights in particular and that many considered there now to be a default setting that couldn't be questioned.

        I wondered where the hell it had come from and if I had been asleep because I didn't recall any wide societal discussion or debate. It was like someone had lifted the arm on record player and we'd skipped a track on an LP.

        And like Dorothy said, we weren't in Kansas anymore.

    • bwaghorn 2.2
      10 January 2024 at 12:46 pm

      I never felt they sold it poorly they where just up against cashed anti everything national and other assorted conservatives.

      • weka 2.2.1
        10 January 2024 at 12:55 pm

        the whole centralise away from the provinces thing was always going to play badly. That they definitely didn't handle well.

        • Incognito 2.2.1.1
          10 January 2024 at 1:22 pm

          the whole centralise away from the provinces thing …

          I think this is an over-simplification; they were trying (!) to increase (!) local/community input & oversight and to create the benefits of a centrally coordinated network with economics of scale. They failed, obviously, partly because they lost control of the narrative quite early on. The rest is history. IMO.

  3. Morrissey 3
    10 January 2024 at 8:20 am

    Norman Finkelstein: "Who do you attack when you target a hospital? You're destroying the lame, the nearly dead, the sick and the newborn."

  4. Visubversa 4
    10 January 2024 at 8:21 am

    The days of "No Debate" are over.

    "The Tribunal Panel Judge Nicolle sitting with Non-Legal Members Ms Sandler and Ms Breslin found that both Ms Meade’s regulator and her employer had subjected her to harassment related to her gender-critical belief when SWE threatened her with fitness to practise proceedings and sanctioned her for misconduct, and then WCC suspended her on charges of gross misconduct before issuing a final written warning. By the time the case was heard, both the regulator’s sanction and the employer’s warning had been withdrawn, but Ms Meade had been suspended from work for a year and bullied into silence on the subject of proposed reforms of the Gender Recognition Act, the importance of safe single-sex spaces for women and related subjects.

    This is a landmark decision. It is the first time a Regulator and an Employer have together been found to have been liable for discrimination relating to gender critical beliefs".

    https://www.colekhan.co.uk/news/uvzuy6kcrtb5lwg59pxbs44tqbeuj2

    • weka 4.1
      10 January 2024 at 9:03 am

      excellent. Do you know if the actions by the regulator and employer predate the final Forstater judgement?

      • Tabletennis 4.1.1
        11 January 2024 at 12:05 pm

        “Did the actions of the regulator and employer predate the final Forstater judgment?”
        No, it didn't.

        UK Guardian 21 June 2021
        Maya Forstater: her gender-critical views of a researcher who lost her job at a thinktank after tweeting that transgender women could not change their biological sex are a protected philosophical belief under the Equality Act, a judge-led panel has ruled.

        JUDGMENT OF 8TH JANUARY 2024
        WIN IN THE EMPLOYMENT TRIBUNAL – MS R MEADE V WESTMINSTER CITY COUNCIL AND SOCIAL WORK ENGLAND

        e.g.
        As against her employer, WCC:
        3. The on-going refusal to lift the Claimant’s suspension in August and September 2021, in January 2022 and in February 2022 or at any time thereafter and despite requests from the Claimant to do so;
        4. An investigation report which was hostile in tone and content, served on the Claimant on 6 December 2021;

        As against her Regulator, SWE:
        2. Being sanctioned by SWE’s Case Examiners on 8 July 2021;
        3. The failure of SWE to set aside the Case Managers’ decision in September 2021 when presented with the evidence in support of the Claimant’s application for a review;

  5. Hunter Thompson II 5
    10 January 2024 at 8:26 am

    ODT, 10 Jan 2024: "High levels of toxic algae found in Waihopai river".

    I wonder if Tourism NZ will feature that news on its website.

    • Robert Guyton 5.1
      10 January 2024 at 8:30 am

      Whitebaiters net the Waihopai. Dog owners walk their pets along its banks.

      • weka 5.1.1
        10 January 2024 at 9:05 am

        kids swim in the Waihopai (or at least used to).

      • Hunter Thompson II 5.1.2
        10 January 2024 at 10:56 am

        "[The American family] picnic on exquisitely packaged food from a portable icebox by a polluted stream … they may reflect vaguely on the curious unevenness of their blessings."

        JK Galbraith

        We seem to be headed the same way, given our leaders' desire to worship at the shrine of the economy. Where will your grandchildren fish, swim or paddle a canoe?

        • Robert Guyton 5.1.2.1
          10 January 2024 at 11:19 am

          Hurrah!

          "Australian miner sees few barriers to exploiting $8b Central Otago gold find"

          "It also told investors that it had a clear pathway to obtaining a mining permit, advising them that a “new pro-mining government” had been place in New Zealand since November."

          https://www.thepost.co.nz/business/350143245/australian-miner-sees-few-barriers-exploiting-8b-central-otago-gold-find

          • Bearded Git 5.1.2.1.1
            10 January 2024 at 12:47 pm

            They will be able to ship the gold from Tarras International Airport….Tarras is going off.

            • weka 5.1.2.1.1.1
              10 January 2024 at 12:53 pm

              are you in favour of the airport beside the Clutha?

              • Bearded Git …
                15 January 2024 at 12:11 pm

                Nope…I'm against Tarras airport on climate change grounds….but I predict it will happen because AirNZ and Qantas want it.

                Once Tarras opens Queenstown airport will no longer be viable and will close.

                • weka …
                  15 January 2024 at 2:47 pm

                  I predict activists will stop it happening. Higher confidence than usual because of the people with money who stopped the Wanaka Airport expansion and the people that live in the area being against it also probably having money. That combined with a very strong climate case that will bring out activists. Also, it's a rallying point.

                  • weka …
                    15 January 2024 at 3:06 pm

                    (I don't really predict the outcome because I hate making predictions, but I do think there will be substantial resistance).

                  • Bearded Git …
                    15 January 2024 at 8:31 pm

                    Many people, including myself, fought against any jets at Wanaka airport because the flight path was right over town and at low altitude.

                    One of the flight paths for Tarras airport will take it over Hawea and Hawea Flat but at such a height that the sound will be mitigated-it is 29km from Tarras Airport to Hawea Flat, further to Hawea..

                    Many people in Queenstown/Frankton want that airport closed because of plane noise which is certain to increase in the future. It is also recognised as a dangerous airport to land/take off and the runway is too short to permit wide body planes-Tarras will cope with wide body planes.

                    The land under Queenstown airport is probably worth $1.5 billion and is 75% community owned so closing the airport would give the QLDC a major windfall. The land under the airport will be able to be developed in a manner that provides for the future…university…hospitals….schools…council offices….affordable housing … etc etc.

                    Some business people will scream about losing Queenstown airport but many in the population will be happy to see it go.

                    • weka …
                      15 January 2024 at 9:00 pm

                      oh yeah, I'm aware that some in Queenstown are keen. But they need to sort out their own problems, not pass them on to other people/places.

                      One of the flight paths for Tarras airport will take it over Hawea and Hawea Flat but at such a height that the sound will be mitigated-it is 29km from Tarras Airport to Hawea Flat, further to Hawea..

                      what does that mean? Will they hear the planes or not?

                      There are lots of people in Central Otago, even in Queenstown, who think there should be limits on growth. For obvious reasons. You'd think Queenstown of all places would get that.

            • Ad 5.1.2.1.1.2
              10 January 2024 at 1:15 pm

              To the workshops of those great French jewellers …

              … Tarras to Paris here we come!

          • Hunter Thompson II 5.1.2.1.2
            12 January 2024 at 6:09 pm

            The miners spruiking this scheme sound very optimistic. The regional council is no doubt all for it and will probably keep environmental restrictions to a minimum if the promoters promise to employ a few locals as navvies.

            But where will they put the mine tailings and other refuse? Te Aroha residents will tell you what can go wrong (taxpayers had to foot a $15 million cleanup bill for the Tui mine because the miner went bust and had paid no bond).

            Google "Lessons to be learnt from toxic legacy", Waikato Times, 2013.

  6. SPC 6
    10 January 2024 at 8:44 am

    Some summertime weirdness.

    The story till now. A coalition policy of removal and replacement of the gender, sexuality, and relationship-based education guidelines (guidelines were introduced in 2020 by then-associate education minister Tracey Martin, who was a New Zealand First MP).

    Last year

    Post Primary Teachers' Association acting president Chris Abercrombie said schools needed more information from the new government.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/503418/axing-sexuality-relationship-education-guidelines-would-be-huge-mistake-warns-co-writer

    This year

    The union representing primary school teachers says there still has not been any consultation or guidance from the Government over planned changes to the sex education curriculum, a few weeks out from the school year starting.

    Potter said so far, there had been very little indication from the Government on what it wants changed in the guidelines, given the coalition agreement also called for a replacement.

    So far clear enough.

    NZEI Te Riu Roa president Mark Potter said they had been developed by specialists in that area, as well as educational professionals, and were designed to be age-appropriate for each stage of children's growth.

    He is replying to this from Luxon last year

    we want a well defined curriculum agreed to by experts that actually makes sure that the content is age-appropriate, that parents have been consulted, and importantly that parents have an ability to withdraw from the education as well.

    The last bit is surprising as withdrawing children is something parents can do now

    Labour's education spokesperson Jan Tinetti said parents already had the option to withdraw their children from classes.

    https://www.1news.co.nz/2024/01/10/sex-education-govt-accused-of-conspiracy-based-thinking/

    This is where it gets to the summertime wierdness

    Both Potter and Tinetti said schools have already developed their curricula for 2024, which would have been developed with their communities.

    That is, the government did not legislate changes in the 100 day plan and so the year would go ahead with existing policy.

    But schools would need time to make the changes, and consult with parents in time for 2025.

    The urgency is related to development a replacement for 2025.

    Someone else can do a post on developing a replacement as per the criticism of existing policy from Emeritus professor Sue Middleton

    Emeritus professor Sue Middleton wants the guidelines replaced because she disagrees with how gender is defined under them.

    The definition is: "Gender is an individual identity related to a continuum of masculinities and femininities. A person's gender is not fixed or immutable".

    Middleton believes gender is not a matter of identity but is rather a matter of biological sex.

    "Most of us say we don't have a gender identity; we have a sex and we may be according to the stereotypes, be more masculine or more feminine. But that's not in the identity category, it's a quality of our personality and that's fine."

    But Middleton did not want all the guidelines thrown out, she said sex education needed to be about more than biological reproduction.

    Meanwhile, Katie Fitzpatrick (Senior Research Fellow at the University of Auckland, New Zealand) said there was fear around gender that she thought came from a lack of knowledge.

    "Children learn about gender in all kinds of environments from which colours belong to whom and the gender binary is very well established. I think people questioning that, which is not a new thing, some others get nervous about that. We want to open up that conversation rather than shut it down."

    She said there needed to be more respectful, meaningful conversations about gender.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/503418/axing-sexuality-relationship-education-guidelines-would-be-huge-mistake-warns-co-writer

    • weka 6.1
      10 January 2024 at 9:11 am

      I'm not sure what is weird there. This was wholly predictable. I put a comment above under Robert's post about the Gender Critical aspect being central to everything in that. The left gave the right and open door to attack all sex/sexuality education.

      Let's just hope there are some in NACTF who aren't completely insane as well and we end up with a more socially conservative but still liberal curriculum rather than something ultra right. I don't know the MPs well enough to know what is most likely.

      Also, no fucking point in developing something in the community if No Debate is being run.

      • SPC 6.1.1
        10 January 2024 at 9:25 am

        I'm not sure what is weird there

        Raising the issue of needing more information while MP's (Minister and Cabinet) are at the beach and doing so as per the formation of a replacement policy for 2025.

        The only immediate issue would be impact on the curriculum for 2024 if there was a withdrawal of the guidelines before there was a replacement.

        PS Where changes are top down, the consultation is then between schools and parents.

      • millsy 6.1.2
        10 January 2024 at 10:32 am

        What do you define as a "more socially conservative but still liberal curriculum"?

        • weka 6.1.2.1
          10 January 2024 at 11:14 am

          teaching the basics of biological sex, social aspects of sex, and sexuality, and not teaching children that it's possible and desirable to change sex would be a start.

          a hard core RW conservative position would teach abstinence to teens as an example of illiberal conservatism. An out of control neoliberal position would prioritise gender identity over biological sex, and lie to children that bio sex can be changed and that this is a good thing (eg disabling surgeries and hormones).

          I'm arguing what should be in the curriculum here. I'm pointing to a middle ground that might stop this being a complete disaster while the gender/sex conflict is being resolved.

  7. Rolling-on-Gravel 7
    10 January 2024 at 8:53 am

    I supported the idea of 3 Waters because it likely contained a policy of national water supply which frees the councils from the responsibility of managing their water supply so they can do more with managing infrastructure that the government do not concern itself with. As far as I'm concerned, the more nationalised/nationally shared resources we can get, we get better councils as a result.

    We can get the councils to focus far more on local infrastructure instead of having to concern themselves with water maintenance and management if we can get around to nationalising water and electricity along with railways and if possible healthcare.

    God, that could mean better cities! Better towns! More physically & sensorally accessible cities and towns in Aotearoa/NZ! 😀

    • Ad 7.1
      10 January 2024 at 9:41 am

      All the draft Council budgets should come out for public consultation at the end of March.

      So March through to June will be the window we have to show the relationship between water availability, water quality, water price, water ownership, and what our councils should do.

      It's all on them now and it's what they all begged for.

    • UncookedSelachimorpha 7.2
      10 January 2024 at 10:25 am

      Using the advertising approach of calling it "3 waters" was a mistake I think. Should have just called it "water infrastructure" or "drinking water, storm water and sewage services"

      The disingenuous would have found "STOP water infrastructure!" or "STOP drinking water, storm water and sewage services!" slogans less useful.

      • Phillip ure 7.2.1
        10 January 2024 at 10:57 am

        Wot uncooked said..

        Three waters sounds like a new mineral water drink…

        Meaningless pap..

        • Robert Guyton 7.2.1.1
          10 January 2024 at 11:28 am

          3 Waters is an elegant and descriptive title.

          It was polluted by the Right.

          • UncookedSelachimorpha 7.2.1.1.1
            10 January 2024 at 2:00 pm

            True, it was the right that took advantage. But no need to make it easier for them (and yes, they would have come up with some vapid attack slogan regardless, I suppose)

  8. Robert Guyton 8
    10 January 2024 at 9:10 am

    If we can accept that shaman from all manner of cultures are able to shape-shift and become birds, panthers, lizards etc, then it must be that a male shaman could become a woman, yes?

    • weka 8.1
      10 January 2024 at 9:19 am

      it's the difference between imaginative and material reality. We can be shamans, but shamans still exist within the laws of nature. Shamans don't become panthers in material reality ie no-one can independently observe them as a panther. The problem isn't with material reality, it's that the west believes that material reality is god and that imaginative reality is either stupid or ok but needs to be put in its place. Sane cultures do both/and.

      The gender/sex fight is over the definition of 'woman'. Many people believe that women = biologically female. It's simply not possible for humans to change from one biological sex to the other (there are some animals and plants that can, but not humans).

      Other people believe that 'woman' is a feeling. So if a man feels like they are a woman, they can be one literally. This is obviously a nonsense in relation to biological reality, so the issue becomes should the needs of gender non-conforming men take priority over the rights and reality of women? And how should society manage that in terms of law, policy, resources etc.

      My own view is that men as a class need to do the mahi of making it acceptable for men to be gender non-conforming so that they don't have to try and colonise women's culture. And support women to have our own politics, thanks.

      • Robert Guyton 8.1.1
        10 January 2024 at 9:30 am

        So, we've paddled in the shallow end of indigenous cultures, such as those who have lived in Australia for tens of thousands of years, but we haven't really given ourselves over to the deeper parts of those cultures.

        Goethe encourages deep-observation of plants in order to become the plant.

        Holding tight the supremacy of material over spiritual is where we in the Western World are failing, is it not so?

        Ursula LeGuin had much to say about this and she wasn't, I believe, joking 🙂

        • weka 8.1.1.1
          10 January 2024 at 10:03 am

          Goethe encourages deep-observation of plants in order to become the plant.

          Yes, but we don't become a plant in material reality, right? What we do is develop a relational connection with the plant that shifts our consciousness. All very good.

          What's not so good is trying to remedy the western overemphasis on material reality with pseudo-spirituality. I'm not being pejorative there, GII isn't a spirituality, but it has aspects of religion that are problematic as a belief system but very problematic when adopted as societal rules.

          Here's one of the consequences of allowing dogmatic beliefs to override material reality,

          You’re a 10yr old girl. One day you decide to use the toilet while you’re at the market with your mom.

          You’re sexually assaulted at knifepoint by a man who’s six and a half feet tall.

          You’re told he’s a woman and they call him a her in court

          This is trans ideology

          https://www.scotsman.com/regions/edinburgh-fife-and-lothians/female-spaces-need-better-protection-after-trans-woman-sex-assault-on-girl-say-campaigners-140883

          https://twitter.com/FreyaManslayer/status/1744524603257422208

          you can click through the quote tweets to see other examples.

          What I want to know is why the left is sanctioning an ideology into law, policy and society that enables this.

          Le Guin did have some things to say about child abuse. She centred Therru in the later Earthsea books for really good reasons.

          • Robert Guyton 8.1.1.1.1
            10 January 2024 at 10:35 am

            "Yes, but we don't become a plant in material reality, right?"

            Wrong, but we'll need to explore the true meaning of "become" 🙂

            Māori, I'm told, by some Māori, believe their maunga tapu is IN FACT their ancestor/gggggggggrandfather/mother.

            Are we to dismiss that claim as "imagination"?

            • weka 8.1.1.1.1.1
              10 January 2024 at 11:21 am

              why would you put imagination in quotation marks? Doesn't that diminish the experience of understanding the land as our ancestor? If we understand imagination as being as important as material reality, there's no problem with understanding that some people experience the land as ancestor, is there?

              Besides, science shows us that humans and plants share ancestry, so it's not too much of a stretch of the… imagination.

              In what way do you believe that humans can become a plant in material reality?

              • Robert Guyton …
                10 January 2024 at 11:34 am

                Because imagination has a micro and/plus a macro meaning. Most use its micro form – I wanted to draw attention to the need for thinking more deeply about the word.

                What do you mean by "material reality" (quoting from your comment.

                "Some people" (again), scoff at the idea that a mountain could be anyone's great etc. grandfather, (in reality).

                Who is right?

                Are you suggesting multiple realities?

                If so, could their not be a reality where men can be women, if their imagination allows it?

                • weka …
                  10 January 2024 at 12:01 pm

                  What are the micro and macro meanings of the word imagination?

                  What do you mean by "material reality" (quoting from your comment.

                  this is a great question, I will answer in a different comment.

                  What do you mean by reality there?

                  If so, could their not be a reality where men can be women, if their imagination allows it?

                  I thought I already answered this. In physical reality, no, it's just not possible. Men can pretend to women in physical reality but that's not the same thing.

                  If men can be women, then there is no such thing as biological reality, which is obviously nonsense.

                  If you mean can men be women in the imaginal realm, the problem here, in this context, is that we are now neck deep in an ideology that has powerfully influenced law, policy and society as if it were physical reality. This is both a lie, and it impacts on women and children. Women in particular have been told to shut the fuck up. We won't.

                  It's not possible to have the conversation about the imaginal realm until the people who want men to imagine themselves women stop trying to remove women's rights. Maslow's hierarchy of needs probably comes in at this point. Absolutely no way will support the progress of an ideology that comes at the expense of a 12 year old girl being sexually assaulted. It would be corrupt to do so.

                  "Some people" (again), scoff at the idea that a mountain could be anyone's great etc. grandfather, (in reality).

                  Who is right?

                  I'm less interested in determining who is right, than I am in exploring the chasm between literal thinkers, imaginative thinkers, and those of us that can think in both at the same time. I'd call it decolonisation of the western mind but that would create another set of communication problems 😉

                  • Robert Guyton …
                    10 January 2024 at 1:03 pm

                    "What are the micro and macro meanings of the word imagination?"

                    "That's just your imagination" as opposed to, "Imagination is the most powerful tool humans possess".

                    I think your views on your pet issue are limiting your … imagination 🙂

                    You say, "pretend", I say, "be".

                    We can pretend the mountain is our ancestor, or it can be.

                    • weka …
                      10 January 2024 at 1:12 pm

                      how do you think I'm using the word imagination? Because I've been arguing to not diminish it as 'just imagination'.

                      Imagination is indeed an very powerful tool. All the more reason to not be in denial of material reality while using it. That's dangerous.

                      I think your views on your pet issue are limiting your … imagination 🙂

                      You haven't said how, but let me guess. You think that my position that men cannot become women is a limit of my imagination. I can imagine people imagining themselves as a panther, but if some dude or chick from Timaru was setting themselves up as a shaman who had a panther ally and was running workshops based on ripping off natives, at a $1000 a pop, I'd have some political critiques about that too. Both/and.

                      You say, "pretend", I say, "be".

                      We can pretend the mountain is our ancestor, or it can be.

                      sounds to me like you want to ignore material reality, the 12 year old girl who was sexually assaulted, and what women want. That's disappointing.

                      I didn't say anything about pretending to be a mountain. I don't see mana whenua relationship with their maunga in that way at all, so I'm asking you now to take a step back and consider that you are missing important aspects of what I am saying here.

                  • Robert Guyton …
                    10 January 2024 at 2:26 pm

                    weka; you're freaking me out!

                    I took some time to plant a dozen Japanese quinces and mull over something that's disturbing me and now, if I may…

                    …you wrote, "…sounds to me like you want to ignore material reality, the 12 year old girl who was sexually assaulted, and what women want. That's disappointing…."

                    Wtf???

                    "Material reality" – the topic of our discussion, and those examples you gave to show what specifically I am ignoring, seem way out of kilter to me. It's a "what about" set-up, isn't it? I made no mention of either/any of those examples, yet you've sheeted them to me and tarred me with the, "you haven't denounced" brush. This is what happened over the assaults during the Posie Parker protest; supporters of your position, your sisters in arms, charged me (and others) with failing to denounce actions that they found abhorrent. Is this the standard for putting forward a view (in this case on the nature of reality and the role of the observer) – a declaration of position on matters chosen by "your crew"?

                    It seems very strange indeed, to me. Perhaps there are others who baulked at this behaviour, I can't know.

                    • weka …
                      10 January 2024 at 8:53 pm

                      Sorry to be freaking you out. Let me reread the thread and get my bearings on what has happened and come back to you and see if we can reconnect the conversation in a better way.

                    • Robert Guyton …
                      10 January 2024 at 8:57 pm

                      Okay, thanks, no rush.

                • weka …
                  10 January 2024 at 12:45 pm

                  What do you mean by "material reality" (quoting from your comment.

                  Material reality in the gender/sex context refers to the stuff of the universe that exists and can be observed and interacted with but is fundamentally independent of human thought.

                  For instance, humans as a species reproduce via a sexual binary (female eggs, male sperm). There is no variant on that, it's an aspect of material reality that cannot be changed by human imagination. The only way to get a new human is by combining the stuff of the universe that is in the egg and in the sperm.

                  Even if we develop technologies that take us out of nature/evolution eg cloning humans, that still has to happen using the materials and rules of material reality. Our thinking might conceive of how to do that, but it still gets done with physical stuff.

                  I guess it's theoretically possible that at some point in the future, humans might be able to create a third sex. We're not even close to being able to think about how to that in real life, let alone grapple with the ethical issues.

                  So when people engage with plants, that exists in material reality, but they engage via non-material means… although in the case of Goethe, it's both/and, right? so let's say they engage with the plant via material and non-material realms, the person doing the engaging still has the physical body they were born with. That body doesn't acquire the capacity for photosynthesis for instance. Nor does she/he have physical roots that are in relationship with soil microbia.

                  So whatever else is going on with the process and experience, we can definitively say that the person doesn't not become a plant materially.

                  The reason this matters (haha) is that material reality is a really great thing! We do ourselves and the rest of nature a great disservice to be in denial of it. The denial of material reality is driving the great crises of the world. The disconnect from our innate spiritual relationship with nature is that too. But they're the same thing, not because they are the same thing, but because both exist as each and as one.

                  Sorry to go all esoteric there, but what I see happening often is people realising the west has lost the plot (mind/body split etc) and then they eschew material reality because Descartes said some stupid shit about it a while back. Why are we letting that unfortunate part of history drive our thinking?

                  (it's often observed the similarities between the great religions that sought to transcend the body, and GII which seeks likewise. Both hate women in our fantastically female and natural bodies).

                  • Robert Guyton …
                    10 January 2024 at 1:08 pm

                    "Material reality in the gender/sex context refers to the stuff of the universe that exists and can be observed and interacted with but is fundamentally independent of human thought."

                    Material reality must cover all contexts, surely?

                    In any case, what reality can you describe that is fundamentally different from human thought?

                    If a tree falls in a forest…"

                    • weka …
                      10 January 2024 at 1:16 pm

                      Material reality must cover all contexts, surely?

                      not sure what you mean by cover, but I chose to explain in that particular context because that's how the conversation started (and because I’ve read some excellent philosophical discussions about material reality arising from the sex/gender conflict). We can talk about material reality in lots of contexts, is that what you mean?

                      In any case, what reality can you describe that is fundamentally different from human thought?

                      everything that is not human exists in a reality that is independent from human thought. We can think about all the things, but when we are not thinking about them they still exist. I don't have to describe it, it just is.

                      I'm pretty sure my cat is either hunting rabbits or sleeping it off right now (or maybe doing some other cat thing), but whether I am aware of that or not, he's still out there doing it materially.

                    • Robert Guyton …
                      10 January 2024 at 1:45 pm

                      Glad you brought up cats 🙂

                      Mr Schrödinger had one.

                      "The prevailing theory, called the Copenhagen interpretation, says that a quantum system remains in superposition until it interacts with, or is observed by, the external world."

                      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schrödinger%27s_cat#:~:text=In%20Schrödinger%27s%20original%20formulation%2C%20a,poison%2C%20which%20kills%20the%20cat.

                    • Nic the NZer []
                      11 January 2024 at 7:58 am

                      Schrodinger was making the point that the system described by quantum mechanics appeared ridiculus. The description produced is a distribution of probabilities for what will be observed. But this discussion makes the assumption that there is a reality which is exactly what is then observed in any experiment. The key insight should be that there is some missing part from quantum mechanics which if added allowed the exact outcomes to be found. Maybe this is related to fully integrating gravity into quantum mechanics. Its also possible that the resolution of measurement is too great a barrier to such experiments.

                    • Robert Guyton …
                      11 January 2024 at 8:02 am

                      You've nailed it, Nic!

                    • Nic the NZer []
                      11 January 2024 at 8:22 am

                      The basic product of philosophy (including logic and math) doesnt have to be true or observable. Thats just a basic fact of (human) thought. So it's a further demand of science that any models rejected by experiment should also be discarded. The question here seems to be should politics be expected to be conducted on a scientific understanding of society? Maybe in future we could prioratise the political issues of which ever fictional character appears in the ACT parties political advertising campaign?

                    • Robert Guyton …
                      11 January 2024 at 8:31 am

                      Had to read that one several times 🙂

        • Stephen D 8.1.1.2
          10 January 2024 at 10:06 am

          Could it be that one person’s myth is another person’s religion or reality?

          • Robert Guyton 8.1.1.2.1
            10 January 2024 at 10:45 am

            For sure. Myth, religion and reality are each/all story, especially for us/we humans.I've seen/worked with, humans who can understand the story at all – it's not a pretty sight. Story is, of course, entirely manipulable, hence we can find ourselves/are in the thrall of powerful storytellers.

            "Fantasy"writers such as Le Guin and Tolkien, when speaking/writing from their deepest selves, do not say myth is "not reality", or magic is "fantasy".

            For the truth of the matter 🙂 Read T.H. White's "The Sword in the Stone" and how Merlin teaches young Arthur the true nature of reality.

    • Visubversa 8.2
      10 January 2024 at 9:19 am

      You can "believe" anything you chose to believe. Fortunately, these days you cannot require other people to believe the same things. Mystical stuff belongs with mystical stuff. It is not biological reality.

      • Robert Guyton 8.2.1
        10 January 2024 at 9:32 am

        Why the quotation marks around the first "believe" in your reply, Visubversa?

        • Molly 8.2.1.1
          10 January 2024 at 9:01 pm

          Human sex as binary can be quantified and verified.

          Anything that says otherwise – without any measurable or testable criteria, is an article of faith. Thus 'belief'.

  9. Rolling-on-Gravel 9
    10 January 2024 at 10:01 am

    See you around. I'm taking another break.

    I need to plan stuff.

    • Grey Area 9.1
      10 January 2024 at 2:23 pm

      Thanks for your thoughtful post in the Atlas Smirked thread about where to from here. I'm still thinking about what that means for me where I am.

      Kia kaha

  12. Ad 12
    10 January 2024 at 12:11 pm

    A big shoutout to Mels Barton and Greg Presland, Forest and Bird Waitakere, Te Kawerau A Maki and all the good folk of Waima in Titirangi Auckland for the consent conditions that forced Watercare to work so hard for their new pump station.

    Hard fought and a great focus for civic environmental activism over the last 5 years,

    https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/BU2401/S00020/watercare-receives-long-awaited-consent-for-huia-water-treatment-plant-replacement.htm

    It will supply water to approximately 300,000 Aucklanders, about 20 per cent of Auckland’s water.

    In particular top score to the neighbourhood team for squeezing out $8.25 out of Waitakere to put to local biodoversity and conservation work. Looking forward to really sound preparation for construction starting 2027.

  13. theotherpat 13
    10 January 2024 at 3:02 pm

    how about we just say that there is no absolute reality….reality being just a grey matter construct anyway.

  14. Joe90 14
    10 January 2024 at 6:21 pm

    The faux news brain worm at work.

    @Acyn

    Right now, Fox is suggesting that Taylor Swift is a psyop because she posted a link to register voters.

    https://twitter.com/Acyn/status/1744897719578055029

    The Post-UMD poll finds 39 percent of Americans who say Fox News is their primary news source believe the FBI organized and encouraged the Jan. 6 attack, compared with 16 percent of CNN or MSNBC viewers and 13 percent who get most of their news from ABC, CBS or NBC. The poll finds 44 percent of those who voted for Trump say the FBI instigated the attack.

    https://archive.li/y6OBh (wapo)

  15. Robert Guyton 15
    10 January 2024 at 7:22 pm

    Golriz?

    • joe90 15.1
      10 January 2024 at 7:57 pm

      The woman has MS. Medications used to manage the symptoms of MS are a who's who of brain breakers that can affect moral decision making.

      • Ad 15.1.1
        10 January 2024 at 8:00 pm

        If Gharaman's medication is that severe on her judgement, why is she in Parliament making law? Shaw will need to give her a fair amount of sick leave while the prosecution goes through.

        • Robin The Goodfellow 15.1.1.1
          10 January 2024 at 8:12 pm

          From the ocean to the sea

          Scotties clothes shall be free!

          wink

          • Ad 15.1.1.1.1
            10 January 2024 at 8:21 pm

            So droll!

          • Muttonbird 15.1.1.1.2
            10 January 2024 at 8:25 pm

            This from Kiwiblog a couple of hours ago:

            “From the River to The Sea, all my outfits shall be Free” ~ Golriz Ghahraman (2024, probably)

            Not hard to see where you get your talking points from but you could at least link and attribute material that is not yours.

            Also interesting that NZ zionist and noted Islamophobe, David Farrar, made a special post about this to declare it to his followers.

            Let us remind ourselves that David Farrar had to introduce gateway moderation to his blog after the Christchurch mass murders…

            • Robin The Goodfellow 15.1.1.1.2.1
              10 January 2024 at 10:03 pm

              Considering I got it from the new zealand subreddit page I don't think I'll be linking to kiwiblog

              • Muttonbird …
                10 January 2024 at 10:09 pm

                Ok, mate. It's all the same and you still didn't attribute.

                It's important to attribute so that members of this forum know where your reckons come from, and that your reckons are not actually your own.

            • Peter 15.1.1.1.2.2
              10 January 2024 at 10:12 pm

              Years ago, this was online from David Farrar:

              "Formenting Happy Mischief

              "First Husband Peter Davis wrote to the Herald on Tuesday accusing them of formenting happy mischief.

              A senior journalist suggested to me “Formenting Happy Mischief” would be a better slogan for kiwiblog than the Herald. I'm inclined to agree.

              I don't have a tagline for the blog I quite like the idea of using one supplied (indirectly) by Peter Davis!"

              It seems to have become 'fomenting.' Whichever it is, it's a great opportunity for posters on that site to start the year flaunting their appalling attitudes.

              And for Farrar to play D J Trump: "People tell me that …", reality and fact become established and the invitation to swim in the sewer and ignorance is made and accepted.

              Golriz Ghahraman is no indication of us living in a scummy country sad and wretched. You go to Farrar to see that.

        • Muttonbird 15.1.1.2
          10 January 2024 at 8:14 pm

          Some people have made up their minds already.

          • Ad 15.1.1.2.1
            10 January 2024 at 8:22 pm

            Shaw stood her down from portfolios not me.

            The Green leadership have made the judgement.

            • Muttonbird 15.1.1.2.1.1
              10 January 2024 at 8:38 pm

              You did say the prosecution was going through. That might happen but it hasn't happened yet. Not that a detail like that stops a resident of Wānaka from the declaration.

        • Anne 15.1.1.3
          10 January 2024 at 8:19 pm

          So, Ad has (not to mention the nonentity R the Goodfellow) found her guilty regardless? Maybe no-one, including herself, was aware of the possible effect on her.

          Either something went radically wrong for her, or she is the latest manifestation of DP. Whatever, I feel sympathy for her. She is a very intelligent young woman.

          https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/506410/green-mp-golriz-ghahraman-stands-aside-from-portfolios-after-being-accused-of-shoplifting

          • Ad 15.1.1.3.1
            10 January 2024 at 8:28 pm

            You are the poster child for the Trump defence that all politicians are immune from prosecution.

            The Green Party are already in contact with Scotties.

            Presumably a statement tomorrow morning.

            • Anne 15.1.1.3.1.1
              10 January 2024 at 8:50 pm

              You are the poster child for the Trump defence that all politicians are immune from prosecution.

              Bullshit. 🙄

          • Corey 15.1.1.3.2
            10 January 2024 at 8:54 pm

            Innocent until proven guilty but if found guilty I hope she gets a conviction and that its the end of her career.

            I'm bloody sick of politicians running around acting like the rules don't apply to them, the behaviour of MPs in the last year has been disgusting.

            We've had MPs boast about trying to interfere in court matters, lying about getting rid of their shares to cabinet, resisting arrest, a former or current I don't keep track with the torys getting thrown off a plane and not being charged for it and now we have one allegedly shoplifting.

            If she's guilty I believe all MPs as representatives of the public should face the harshest available punishment according to the law broken (laws that they write) if they break a law.

            She gets paid boat loads and is just a list mp.

            I hope it's all a beat up but the public is sick to death of our representatives acting like the laws they write don't apply to them.

            It's a high pressure job but noones forcing anyone to do it, individuals who are burnt out can should step down.

            Normal people don't have the options or the money or the resources these people do.

          • Robin The Goodfellow 15.1.1.3.3
            10 January 2024 at 10:05 pm

            Never said she was guilty but it is funny laugh

        • Rolling-on-Gravel 15.1.1.4
          10 January 2024 at 8:34 pm

          Ad, I know I said I was taking a break, however, if it's MS, then please leave her alone on that topic.

          It's never ever anybody's fault that anybody has a disability and it is not her fault that she has MS and there is a lot of value in having someone with a disability or sickness being in politics and its sphere than if there was nobody in politics with such a background.

          We need more people with disabilities and sicknesses to be represented in Aotearoa/NZ politics, not less.

          These are perilous times and a lot of lives are on the line. It's only fair that we have political representation regardless of the times we find ourselves in.

          That's all.

          • Molly 15.1.1.4.1
            11 January 2024 at 10:35 am

            "… and there is a lot of value in having someone with a disability or sickness being in politics and its sphere than if there was nobody in politics with such a background".

            Value lies in comprehensive research, consultation with advocates and appropriate consideration for those with sickness and disabilities.

            The idea that representatives are required is flawed. Perspectives, and needs should be represented and that should be done by standard processes.

            • Robert Guyton 15.1.1.4.1.1
              11 January 2024 at 10:38 am

              So, no need for women in politics?

              Men who do "comprehensive research, consultation with advocates and appropriate consideration for (women) ", would suffice?

              • Molly …
                11 January 2024 at 11:01 am

                Given the experience of women on here, it is unlikely that many men have the capability of achieving "comprehensive research, consultation with advocates and appropriate consideration ".

                However, relying on this to be rectified by including a female representative – who may also fail at the above – is a flawed notion.

                The processes should be improved.

                • weka …
                  11 January 2024 at 11:26 am

                  nevertheless, if you argue that representation isn't needed, what would an appropriate process look like for say a group making decisions about women where that group was all men.

                  • Molly …
                    11 January 2024 at 11:33 am

                    If those men – actually understood and gave due consideration to the needs of women – and effectively represented and advocated for them, then they are more effective than a group of women who do not.

                    The fact of being female – doesn't mean you are an effective advocate for women.

                    Any representative – while they may be exceptional advocates for a particular demographic also have to ensure that all other consitituents are represented as well. ie. a politician concerned about women's health, uses processes that serve specific health needs for men.

                    • weka …
                      11 January 2024 at 11:48 am

                      If those men – actually understood and gave due consideration to the needs of women – and effectively represented and advocated for them, then they are more effective than a group of women who do not.

                      I don't think anyone has suggested a group of women who don't understand or give due consideration to the needs of women, so that's the wrong comparison.

                      The comparison is between qualified women and qualified men, all other things being equal, would a group that included women do better for women than a group of men?

                      Any representative – while they may be exceptional advocates for a particular demographic also have to ensure that all other consitituents are represented as well. ie. a politician concerned about women's health, uses processes that serve specific health needs for men.

                      Sure, but that ensuring might be by recoginising the limits of one's own knowledge base and experience and making sure that the relevant experience and knowledge is included via people of the class being affected.

                      No-one can represent everyone all the time at the level required.

                      Men will never be as good as women at understand childbirth for instance. Yes, the women representing birthing women should have given birth and be qualified. And that makes them better at the job than men. I'm not talking individual exemptions to the principle here.

                    • Molly …
                      11 January 2024 at 11:53 am

                      "The comparison is between qualified women and qualified men, all other things being equal, would a group that included women do better for women than a group of men?"

                      If the processes are robust, they should achieve the same.

                      If you have a definitive answer, then that part of the process should be improved.

                    • Robert Guyton …
                      11 January 2024 at 5:15 pm

                      You did indicate that you believe there's no need for those most affected by policy to be central to policy delivery, hence my question.

            • weka 15.1.1.4.1.2
              11 January 2024 at 10:44 am

              The idea that representatives are required is flawed.

              please explain how.

              Perspectives, and needs should be represented and that should be done by standard processes.

              using people with first hand experience is part of the standard processes. It doesn't preclude research, consultation and appropriate consideration, it adds to those things.

              Meanwhile, across many sectors, we have seen that consultation with groups by people not of that group but who hold the power, leads to poor policy and outcomes.

              In the disability area, an example would be town planning and the push towards cycling/walking and non-car spaces that pays lip service to disability and constantly gets it wrong. That is less likely to happen if people with disabilities were part of the planning process (and I don't mean the odd token person with a disability).

              Having a disability in and of itself doesn't qualify, having an otherwise qualified person who also has a disability adds perspectives that are needed.

              • Molly …
                11 January 2024 at 11:04 am

                I'm not suggesting the processes are not flawed. They need to be improved to ensure that consultation, research and appropriate considerations are made. Advocates may be elected as representatives – all good – but should not be required for the processes to be effective.

                Unfortunately, there are the usual political and administrative impediments to good representation. This can be addressed, with or without specific representatives.

                • weka …
                  11 January 2024 at 11:11 am

                  Advocates may be elected as representatives – all good – but should not be required for the processes to be effective.

                  ok, but you still haven't explained why. Would you mind putting your thinking out in more detail?

                  • Molly …
                    11 January 2024 at 11:50 am

                    I believe I've been pretty clear. Processes should exist, and be in constant review for improvement, that ensures the needs of all people are represented in policies and governance.

                    This allows full-time advocates to concentrate on those they advocate for, without the additional time costs and burdens that as political representatives they should devote to other groups.

                    Consultation with such advocates – should definitely be part of a comprehensive and effective process.

                    I don't think I have anything further to add. Unless you have something specific you wanted to ask.

                    • Robert Guyton …
                      11 January 2024 at 12:18 pm

                      I have.

                      Who should design those processes?

                    • Molly …
                      11 January 2024 at 12:23 pm

                      They should already exist. It is apparent that if they do – they are inadequate. Have a look at who was consulted regarding policy at Sports NZ that would impact on women and girls in sports:

                      https://sportnz.org.nz/media/okjhw2n2/summary-of-feedback-final-1.pdf

                      But if you are happy with inadequate, inefficient and ineffective processes as long as a token representative is in place, that's your call. I have no inclination to spend time attempting to change your mind.

                    • Robert Guyton …
                      11 January 2024 at 12:26 pm

                      "… inadequate, inefficient and ineffective processes as long as a token representative is in place…"

                      Is that the case?

                    • Molly …
                      11 January 2024 at 12:39 pm

                      @Robert Guyton

                      "Is that the case?"

                      We are coming across a familiar occurrence, where you appear to lose sight of the original point of discussion.

                      https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-10-01-2024/#comment-1984131

                      "Value lies in comprehensive research, consultation with advocates and appropriate consideration for those with sickness and disabilities.

                      The idea that representatives are required is flawed. Perspectives, and needs should be represented and that should be done by standard processes."

                      You may have a long lifespan ahead of you, but mine is too short to spend further time while I wait for you to regroup and catch up.

                      Carry on without me. It seems my comments are unnecessary for you to misconstrue what I say anyway.

            • Rolling-on-Gravel 15.1.1.4.1.3
              11 January 2024 at 1:40 pm

              I am myself a disabled person and I have had some experience in politics and I do not like that you think to exclude our bodies and minds by delegating our politics to some well-meaning people all the time. Allies matters, however, there's never a true substitute for authenticity. Sure, there's stinkers and pull-up ladderers in our group, however, that's par for the course for politics. We can't help these who would backstab us or destroy our gains. That's the risk. We should strive nonetheless.

              There is nothing better than somebody who can understand and gets it completely and helps you to the degree that even allies cannot. Having agency and power to make your own future is not to be underestimated. It turns you from being a spectator to someone who can do what you think is best for better or worse.

              Agency and the ability to execute our own political agenda is extremely vital. All successful political social/economic movements ever created has leaders, representatives and followers who has the authentic experience and lives that comes of going through that sort of experience.

              What this tells me is that we still need more people who knows what it's like to be disabled and gets it and can work for us.

              Allies are always valuable and are appreciated and should be treasured, however, one thing is clear, it's ultimately our lives that we should be in control of, not be controlled by others. Having ourselves being able to find a way to empower and make our life better means we will be more able to pull our weight to help you right back to make a better future for all.

              That is what matters. Being able to be on a more equal basis with other people. We would be more able to make a more universal society where we can be more able to be more involved in all of our futures.

              Nothing about all of us without all of us.

              • Rolling-on-Gravel …
                11 January 2024 at 3:42 pm

                And – I was not talking about tokenism nor advocating for such. I am advocating for a fuller vision of disabled people being woven more into the fabric of our greater society. It was always implicit in my argument that disabled people with some prior knowledge of the matters affecting ourselves were going to be what I was pushing for. Tokenism was never the aim. That you think any of what I was talking about was going to lead to Tokenism is not what I’m aiming for with my arguments: I’m aiming for addition and participation and agency and ability to exercise our voice and power amongst many in our society.

                Your arguments seem to imply that we don't place any value on expertise, only representation when I don't actually think that. Ultimately, I am saying that we need more representation in the halls of power with actual expertise and plenty of ability to wield such expertise on the same basis as able-bodied people who we are working with on our own affairs and lives.

                Nothing about us without us is what we are saying basically. We need to have power and a say in our own future as disabled people so we can return the favour to everyone else.

      • Belladonna 15.1.2
        11 January 2024 at 9:10 am

        “The woman has MS. Medications used to manage the symptoms of MS are a who’s who of brain breakers that can affect moral decision making.”

        Speaking as someone who has a close friend with MS – this is deeply insulting. Medication side effects may affect your ability in a range of areas – however, your moral code is not one of them.

        If she is indeed so affected by side effects of her medication, that she can't make rational decisions about every-day matters – then she does not belong in the high-pressure environment of the House of Representatives.

        Personally, I doubt that this is the case.

        • Robert Guyton 15.1.2.1
          11 January 2024 at 10:31 am

          "Medications used to manage the symptoms of MS are a who’s who of brain breakers that can affect moral decision making.”"

          Is this then, not true?

        • joe90 15.1.2.2
          11 January 2024 at 10:51 am

          SSRIs, SNRIs, and anticonvulsants are used in the management of MS symptoms.

          Here, we investigated whether this hyperaltruistic disposition is susceptible to monoaminergic control. We observed dissociable effects of the serotonin reuptake inhibitor citalopram and the dopamine precursor levodopa on decisions to inflict pain on oneself and others for financial gain. Computational models of choice behavior showed that citalopram increased harm aversion for both self and others, while levodopa reduced hyperaltruism. The effects of citalopram were stronger than those of levodopa. Crucially, neither drug influenced the physical perception of pain or other components of choice such as motor impulsivity or loss aversion suggesting a direct and specific influence of serotonin and dopamine on the valuation of harm. We also found evidence for dose dependency of these effects. Finally, the drugs had dissociable effects on response times, with citalopram enhancing behavioral inhibition and levodopa reducing slowing related to being responsible for another’s fate.

          https://www.cell.com/current-biology/fulltext/S0960-9822(15)00595-3

          • Belladonna 15.1.2.2.1
            11 January 2024 at 10:59 am

            Nothing about changing ethical behaviour. If you think it is not OK to steal (or cause pain to others, in your example), taking the MS drugs isn't going to change that ethical decision.

            What may change is your appreciation of consequences for your actions. This is not ethics, it's risk/reward.

            • joe90 15.1.2.2.1.1
              11 January 2024 at 11:22 am

              MS drugs isn't going to change that ethical decision.

              Medications that affect decision making don't affect ethical decisions.

              Really?

              • weka …
                11 January 2024 at 11:24 am

                I'm curious how you think they do. Cognition can obviously be affected, but morality? Do you mean that cognition is impaired and this makes decisions more difficult, or do you mean people's sense of morality is altered?

                • joe90 …
                  11 January 2024 at 12:24 pm

                  people's sense of morality is altered?

                  Related to my own experience with how SNRIs and an anticonvulsant prescribed to treat neuropathic pain altered my decision making processes, no.

                  It's more a loss of impulse control and decision making abilities combined with a brain fade/blank page/forgetfulness thing. More than once I found myself having to return to a shop because I'd simply forgotten to pay. Driving was diabolical, too. I'd look right and see a car and know that I had to give way, look left, forget about the car on my right, and off I'd go. Multiple near misses until I gave up driving.

                  The other biggie was suicide ideation. For someone who'd never ever thought about taking their own life, being preoccupied with self harm was as scary AF.

                  • weka …
                    11 January 2024 at 12:51 pm

                    thanks for clarifying joe, that makes a lot of sense.

                  • Molly …
                    11 January 2024 at 12:58 pm

                    Do you think someone with that level of impairment, while in that period, should have the additional burden and responsibility of acting as a MP?

              • Belladonna …
                11 January 2024 at 11:46 am

                Yes, Really.

                Taking medication doesn't change your ethics. It may change your risk assessment (you don't perceive the consequences of your actions) – but if you think something is 'wrong' before you start your course of medication you'll still think it is 'wrong' while you're taking the drugs.

                • Robert Guyton …
                  11 January 2024 at 12:23 pm

                  Those "date-rape" drugs – do they affect decision-making?

                  Datura is famed for changing a person's behaviour, suggestibility, long-established reactions to threats to safety.

                  • weka …
                    11 January 2024 at 12:49 pm

                    the issue isn't decision making (meds affect that), it's whether morals and ethics are affected.

                    • Robert Guyton …
                      11 January 2024 at 5:21 pm

                      Ethics and morals don't involve decisions?

                      Colour me surprised.

                    • weka []
                      11 January 2024 at 8:22 pm

                      you’ve completely misinterpreted what I said. Care to try again?

                    • Incognito []
                      11 January 2024 at 8:51 pm

                      I stayed out of this discussion for a number of reasons, but ethical behaviour and moral judgement/moral decision-making can be affected by a wide range of medical (and non-medical!) conditions and treatments, incl. medication, obviously. Anyway, a person’s ethical values and principles are not as hard & fast as some (many?) seem to think.

                      That’s all I want to say about this.

                    • Robert Guyton …
                      11 January 2024 at 9:21 pm

                      How concrete are morals and ethics under the influence of medications?

                      Are you suggesting rock-solid?

                      I'm not of that mind.

                      Pain, desperation, despair, hopelessness coupled with narcotics, soporifics, deliriant etc. can dissipate ethical and moral resolve, imo.

                      (I'm not referring to Golritz' situation here).

                    • weka []
                      11 January 2024 at 9:25 pm

                      Are you suggesting rock-solid?

                      No, I’m suggesting that you are misinterpreting what I am saying.

                      It’s hard to have a conversation when that is happening.

        • Anne 15.1.2.3
          11 January 2024 at 11:04 am

          Belladonna @ 15.1.2
          I suffer from severe osteoarthritis and am on a 24 hour pain regime. The consequence of that regime – plus the pain I still have to endure – leaves me tired and absent minded. I have walked out of a shop a few times without paying and the assistant has had to call me back. Since I have to use a crutch to get around they seem to know it was not deliberate and there have been no problems.

          I have no idea what happened to Gholriz Gharaman, but if she was under some stress from the drugs she has to take, it may have had a bearing on what happened. Certain drugs can have negative effects for some people but not others.

          • Belladonna 15.1.2.3.1
            11 January 2024 at 11:13 am

            Anne, I agree that medication and long-term pain can cause absent mindedness or brain fog – but that's not what was being alleged here. The claim was that it can "affect moral decision making". Which is AFAIK, completely untrue – and deeply insulting to people with MS.

            • Anne 15.1.2.3.1.1
              11 January 2024 at 12:39 pm

              OK. I see where you are coming from. Perhaps the term "affect moral decision making" is not appropriate. People who are on drugs, including medically prescribed drugs, can sometimes act in a way which is not normal for them. Its possible this is what happened here. Time will tell.

        • Muttonbird 15.1.2.4
          11 January 2024 at 8:29 pm

          You seem to have a friend for every occasion with respect to political discussion. It's quite remarkable.

          Perhaps you could have a conversation with your friend about the affects a MS diagnosis has on mental health. How did your friend fare 1 year after diagnosis, 2 years? For instance, was it difficult to accept having their future potentially ripped away from them?

          I believe everyone has a different experience of disease and medication and it seems to me you expect a lot from sufferers, and are being a bit mean about one particular sufferer, for political purposes.

          • Belladonna 15.1.2.4.1
            11 January 2024 at 9:03 pm

            For instance, was it difficult to accept having their future potentially ripped away from them?

            That is the kind of comment which inclines me to believe that you have zero practical acquaintance with anyone with a long-term disability or medical diagnosis.

            Fail to see in what way I was 'mean' about Ghahraman. I was pointing out that Joe90's claim that MS medication can "affect moral decision making" is bunkum. And dangerous bunkum, at that.

            I am perfectly willing to believe (if and when there are some actual examples provided – which, so far, there have not been) that medication for MS can affect decision-making and/or risk/reward decisions. Certainly we see this as a side effect of treatment for other medical conditions. What it can't do is change people's ethics or morals.

    • millsy 15.2
      10 January 2024 at 8:13 pm

      Frame up, trying to discredit a young brown liberated woman who fights for the poor, LGBTQ and Palestine. No shortage of people who want her out.

      • Robin The Goodfellow 15.2.1
        10 January 2024 at 11:15 pm

        Hell of a frame up if it gets someone to stand from their roles

        • millsy 15.2.1.1
          11 January 2024 at 10:16 am

          That's the whole idea.

          • Belladonna 15.2.1.1.1
            11 January 2024 at 11:17 am

            "Frame up" implies there is no truth to the allegations. If that were the case, Ghahraman would have vigorously denied the allegation (possibly with an associated libel claim) – and been supported by the Green Party.

            The current actions (refusal to comment, coupled with removal from her portfolios), imply that there is a case to answer.

          • Robin The Goodfellow 15.2.1.1.2
            11 January 2024 at 12:10 pm

            I only replied so you wouldn't feel bad