When the New National Party (NNP) undresses itself in private, it is the Real National Party (RNP), the same as it was when it put on its latest NNP clothes.
The Labour Government was criticised widely for "selling" its programmes poorly, especially 3 Waters.
""We're very worried that they seem to think there's something that needs to be changed. And we're not seeing what they're trying to fix at this stage. We don't understand why they need to do this," he said."
This though, from NZEI Te Riu Roa president Mark Potter, is recent and was said in response to this NACTNZF Government's planned changes to the sex education curriculum.
I guess the same people who lambasted Labour for the poor sales job, will be clamouring to decry the present Governments poor communications.
"A lot of it is very conspiracy-based thinking, and lots of claims about what schools are supposed to be doing that they just aren't. Some very untrue statements being made about what children being taught. So we are wondering, who are they pandering to with this kind of move?"
My guess is that this is largely due to the No Debate stance around gender identity ideology. That's why we don't know what is going on, and it's why it's ended up playing out on social media among people that are often conservative, reactionary, or have abandoned the left and a committment to progressive values.
My guess is based on watching exactly this dynamic play out in the UK and the US as well as other countries. GII (gender identity ideology) was rolled out in schools without consultation, and people who tried to ask questions about it were called bigots and shut down. That of course shut up the progressives who had concerns, because ostracisation via accusations of bigotry is a very strong tool among left liberals. The right, centrists and apolitical people care nearly as much and the result is that they are now in charge of the narrative, and in places like NZ that have a RW government and No Debate, they are in charge of policy and legislation now too.
One of the things that is happening is that the right get to redefine not just GII but all of sex and sexuality education, and of course they're going to do that conservatively, because that is their values.
This is an utter failure by the left. We cannot in any way complain about NACTF not being forthcoming with information, when the left has been running No Debate and ostracisation for years.
There is some hope. In the UK, despite a Tory government there is also a strong grassroots gender critical feminist movement (GCF). Those women and men as allies span the whole spectrum of society from MPs and academics to mums and working people, who are socially liberal and who generally support trans people, but want limits on things like women's spaces and transitioning of children.
So there is a tempering there of the push from the right. This is what should be happening in NZ. In the UK women and men lost jobs and careers over this, but stood up anyway. Fewer have done that in NZ, and we don't have the same kind of grassroots activism culture, so it's harder. It's leaving the power with the more conservative and reactionary people.
The best thing the left could do right now is stop ostracising GCFs, and allow an open and wide debate about the issues that matter to people. There is no way to win progressive gains if we don't bring people along, and there is no way to win a war that seeks to remove the rights of women and children. We're in a stalemate. I don't expect the left do this, I expect them to carry on with the own goals until either NACTF fall apart or we are thrown into the next major crisis (climate, economic, oil).
This is the worst possible time for the left to be failing to get to grips with the culture wars, but I think the base cause is the same as the crises, neoliberal capitalism and fear.
But more importantly thank you for making me aware of the No Debate stance. I had sensed this approach but not been able to understand or articulate it.
I felt it some years back when I realised that there had been a major shift in trans rights in particular and that many considered there now to be a default setting that couldn't be questioned.
I wondered where the hell it had come from and if I had been asleep because I didn't recall any wide societal discussion or debate. It was like someone had lifted the arm on record player and we'd skipped a track on an LP.
And like Dorothy said, we weren't in Kansas anymore.
the whole centralise away from the provinces thing …
I think this is an over-simplification; they were trying (!) to increase (!) local/community input & oversight and to create the benefits of a centrally coordinated network with economics of scale. They failed, obviously, partly because they lost control of the narrative quite early on. The rest is history. IMO.
"The Tribunal Panel Judge Nicolle sitting with Non-Legal Members Ms Sandler and Ms Breslin found that both Ms Meade’s regulator and her employer had subjected her to harassment related to her gender-critical belief when SWE threatened her with fitness to practise proceedings and sanctioned her for misconduct, and then WCC suspended her on charges of gross misconduct before issuing a final written warning. By the time the case was heard, both the regulator’s sanction and the employer’s warning had been withdrawn, but Ms Meade had been suspended from work for a year and bullied into silence on the subject of proposed reforms of the Gender Recognition Act, the importance of safe single-sex spaces for women and related subjects.
This is a landmark decision. It is the first time a Regulator and an Employer have together been found to have been liable for discrimination relating to gender critical beliefs".
“Did the actions of the regulator and employer predate the final Forstater judgment?”
No, it didn't.
UK Guardian 21 June 2021
Maya Forstater: her gender-critical views of a researcher who lost her job at a thinktank after tweeting that transgender women could not change their biological sex are a protected philosophical belief under the Equality Act, a judge-led panel has ruled.
JUDGMENT OF 8TH JANUARY 2024
WIN IN THE EMPLOYMENT TRIBUNAL – MS R MEADE V WESTMINSTER CITY COUNCIL AND SOCIAL WORK ENGLAND
e.g.
As against her employer, WCC:
3. The on-going refusal to lift the Claimant’s suspension in August and September 2021, in January 2022 and in February 2022 or at any time thereafter and despite requests from the Claimant to do so;
4. An investigation report which was hostile in tone and content, served on the Claimant on 6 December 2021;
As against her Regulator, SWE:
2. Being sanctioned by SWE’s Case Examiners on 8 July 2021;
3. The failure of SWE to set aside the Case Managers’ decision in September 2021 when presented with the evidence in support of the Claimant’s application for a review;
"[The American family] picnic on exquisitely packaged food from a portable icebox by a polluted stream … they may reflect vaguely on the curious unevenness of their blessings."
JK Galbraith
We seem to be headed the same way, given our leaders' desire to worship at the shrine of the economy. Where will your grandchildren fish, swim or paddle a canoe?
"Australian miner sees few barriers to exploiting $8b Central Otago gold find"
"It also told investors that it had a clear pathway to obtaining a mining permit, advising them that a “new pro-mining government” had been place in New Zealand since November."
I predict activists will stop it happening. Higher confidence than usual because of the people with money who stopped the Wanaka Airport expansion and the people that live in the area being against it also probably having money. That combined with a very strong climate case that will bring out activists. Also, it's a rallying point.
Many people, including myself, fought against any jets at Wanaka airport because the flight path was right over town and at low altitude.
One of the flight paths for Tarras airport will take it over Hawea and Hawea Flat but at such a height that the sound will be mitigated-it is 29km from Tarras Airport to Hawea Flat, further to Hawea..
Many people in Queenstown/Frankton want that airport closed because of plane noise which is certain to increase in the future. It is also recognised as a dangerous airport to land/take off and the runway is too short to permit wide body planes-Tarras will cope with wide body planes.
The land under Queenstown airport is probably worth $1.5 billion and is 75% community owned so closing the airport would give the QLDC a major windfall. The land under the airport will be able to be developed in a manner that provides for the future…university…hospitals….schools…council offices….affordable housing … etc etc.
Some business people will scream about losing Queenstown airport but many in the population will be happy to see it go.
oh yeah, I'm aware that some in Queenstown are keen. But they need to sort out their own problems, not pass them on to other people/places.
One of the flight paths for Tarras airport will take it over Hawea and Hawea Flat but at such a height that the sound will be mitigated-it is 29km from Tarras Airport to Hawea Flat, further to Hawea..
what does that mean? Will they hear the planes or not?
There are lots of people in Central Otago, even in Queenstown, who think there should be limits on growth. For obvious reasons. You'd think Queenstown of all places would get that.
The miners spruiking this scheme sound very optimistic. The regional council is no doubt all for it and will probably keep environmental restrictions to a minimum if the promoters promise to employ a few locals as navvies.
But where will they put the mine tailings and other refuse? Te Aroha residents will tell you what can go wrong (taxpayers had to foot a $15 million cleanup bill for the Tui mine because the miner went bust and had paid no bond).
Google "Lessons to be learnt from toxic legacy", Waikato Times, 2013.
The story till now. A coalition policy of removal and replacement of the gender, sexuality, and relationship-based education guidelines (guidelines were introduced in 2020 by then-associate education minister Tracey Martin, who was a New Zealand First MP).
Last year
Post Primary Teachers' Association acting president Chris Abercrombie said schools needed more information from the new government.
The union representing primary school teachers says there still has not been any consultation or guidance from the Government over planned changes to the sex education curriculum, a few weeks out from the school year starting.
Potter said so far, there had been very little indication from the Government on what it wants changed in the guidelines, given the coalition agreement also called for a replacement.
So far clear enough.
NZEI Te Riu Roa president Mark Potter said they had been developed by specialists in that area, as well as educational professionals, and were designed to be age-appropriate for each stage of children's growth.
He is replying to this from Luxon last year
we want a well defined curriculum agreed to by experts that actually makes sure that the content is age-appropriate, that parents have been consulted, and importantly that parents have an ability to withdraw from the education as well.
The last bit is surprising as withdrawing children is something parents can do now
Labour's education spokesperson Jan Tinetti said parents already had the option to withdraw their children from classes.
Both Potter and Tinetti said schools have already developed their curricula for 2024, which would have been developed with their communities.
That is, the government did not legislate changes in the 100 day plan and so the year would go ahead with existing policy.
But schools would need time to make the changes, and consult with parents in time for 2025.
The urgency is related to development a replacement for 2025.
Someone else can do a post on developing a replacement as per the criticism of existing policy from Emeritus professor Sue Middleton
Emeritus professor Sue Middleton wants the guidelines replaced because she disagrees with how gender is defined under them.
The definition is: "Gender is an individual identity related to a continuum of masculinities and femininities. A person's gender is not fixed or immutable".
Middleton believes gender is not a matter of identity but is rather a matter of biological sex.
"Most of us say we don't have a gender identity; we have a sex and we may be according to the stereotypes, be more masculine or more feminine. But that's not in the identity category, it's a quality of our personality and that's fine."
But Middleton did not want all the guidelines thrown out, she said sex education needed to be about more than biological reproduction.
Meanwhile, Katie Fitzpatrick (Senior Research Fellow at the University of Auckland, New Zealand) said there was fear around gender that she thought came from a lack of knowledge.
"Children learn about gender in all kinds of environments from which colours belong to whom and the gender binary is very well established. I think people questioning that, which is not a new thing, some others get nervous about that. We want to open up that conversation rather than shut it down."
She said there needed to be more respectful, meaningful conversations about gender.
I'm not sure what is weird there. This was wholly predictable. I put a comment above under Robert's post about the Gender Critical aspect being central to everything in that. The left gave the right and open door to attack all sex/sexuality education.
Let's just hope there are some in NACTF who aren't completely insane as well and we end up with a more socially conservative but still liberal curriculum rather than something ultra right. I don't know the MPs well enough to know what is most likely.
Also, no fucking point in developing something in the community if No Debate is being run.
Raising the issue of needing more information while MP's (Minister and Cabinet) are at the beach and doing so as per the formation of a replacement policy for 2025.
The only immediate issue would be impact on the curriculum for 2024 if there was a withdrawal of the guidelines before there was a replacement.
PS Where changes are top down, the consultation is then between schools and parents.
The union representing primary school teachers says there still has not been any consultation or guidance from the Government over planned changes to the sex education curriculum, a few weeks out from the school year starting.
Potter said so far, there had been very little indication from the Government on what it wants changed in the guidelines, given the coalition agreement also called for a replacement.
A concern as to what happens if the 2021-2023 teacher practice is impacted by withdrawal of the guidelines this year (and if so, when), before they are replaced (not possible for 2024).
teaching the basics of biological sex, social aspects of sex, and sexuality, and not teaching children that it's possible and desirable to change sex would be a start.
a hard core RW conservative position would teach abstinence to teens as an example of illiberal conservatism. An out of control neoliberal position would prioritise gender identity over biological sex, and lie to children that bio sex can be changed and that this is a good thing (eg disabling surgeries and hormones).
I'm arguing what should be in the curriculum here. I'm pointing to a middle ground that might stop this being a complete disaster while the gender/sex conflict is being resolved.
…not teaching children that it's possible and desirable to change sex would be a start.
When did/will Kiwi teachers start "teaching children that it's possible and desirable to change sex"?
Teaching about the feminine-to-masculine spectrum of human identity and behaviours, and that some aspects of identity are changeable and/or not (pre-)determined by (immutable) biological sex, is OK, imho. My initial thinking was firmly binary, but posts and comments on TS have changed that.
Imho, most trans identities are natural – Kiwi society determines what are acceptable trans (and non-trans) behaviours, and that will continue to evolve.
there have always been gender non-conforming people, throughout time and place.
Gender Identity ideology is new.
Lots of gender critical feminists are gender non-conforming.
What is the feminine to masculine spectrum of human identity and behaviours? Is it based on gender stereotypes and gender roles? Are those roles meaningful outside of gender stereotypes?
One of the things that happens is some trans women believe that being a woman is having big breasts and wearing make up and such. Do you think that is anything to with being a woman?
What is the feminine to masculine spectrum of human identity and behaviours? Is it based on gender stereotypes and gender roles? Are those roles meaningful outside of gender stereotypes?
Not sure if this addresses your first question, but consider the idea that a few people exhibit a preponderance of exaggerated behaviours (stereo)typically associated with females (so represent a 'hyperfeminine' identity), a few people exhibit a preponderance of exaggerated behaviours (stereo)typically associated with males (so represent a 'hypermasculine' identity), and most of us exhibit a mix of less exaggerated feminine and masculine behaviours.
Imho, females who are naturally inclined to exhibit (some) typically masculine behaviours, and males who are naturally inclined to exhibit (some) typically feminine behaviours, can be examples of societal strength in diversity. Potentially incongruent combinations (of feminine or masculine identity/behaviour, and immutable biological sex) are personal, and best resolved (or not) on an individual basis – live and let live.
There’s nothing intrinsically male about XY chromosomes, testosterone, body hair, muscle mass or penises… Sex, like gender, is indeed socially constructed and can be changed
don't worry, it's bonkers and it's hard to believe. This is part of how No Debate has been so damaging. We didn't get to talk about this stuff, and now it's there and no-one can quite believe it.
I've just read this conversation and it confirms my suspicion Tinetti was being disingenuous in her concerns.
Y'all above have been discussing the gender aspect of the indoctrination education guidelines.
She put the spotlight on consent issues, which to the best of my knowledge, almost all of us can get to a general consensus on.
When it came to gender issues, like lots of folk who don't have a strong argument, she starts littering her korero with "conspiracy".
Blissfully unaware of the controversy around gender, so indoctrinated by ideology, she had to look up 'woke gender curriculum'.
Rest assured weka, being a GCF, you have merely been duped by a "imported culture war". So patronising, so condescending, and oddly familiar to those who found themselves on the wrong side of the state's Covid reaction.
I see the similarities with the pandemic resistors too, despite not agreeing with them on on some significant points. The condescension is just stupid.
I supported the idea of 3 Waters because it likely contained a policy of national water supply which frees the councils from the responsibility of managing their water supply so they can do more with managing infrastructure that the government do not concern itself with. As far as I'm concerned, the more nationalised/nationally shared resources we can get, we get better councils as a result.
We can get the councils to focus far more on local infrastructure instead of having to concern themselves with water maintenance and management if we can get around to nationalising water and electricity along with railways and if possible healthcare.
God, that could mean better cities! Better towns! More physically & sensorally accessible cities and towns in Aotearoa/NZ! 😀
All the draft Council budgets should come out for public consultation at the end of March.
So March through to June will be the window we have to show the relationship between water availability, water quality, water price, water ownership, and what our councils should do.
It's all on them now and it's what they all begged for.
Using the advertising approach of calling it "3 waters" was a mistake I think. Should have just called it "water infrastructure" or "drinking water, storm water and sewage services"
The disingenuous would have found "STOP water infrastructure!" or "STOP drinking water, storm water and sewage services!" slogans less useful.
True, it was the right that took advantage. But no need to make it easier for them (and yes, they would have come up with some vapid attack slogan regardless, I suppose)
If we can accept that shaman from all manner of cultures are able to shape-shift and become birds, panthers, lizards etc, then it must be that a male shaman could become a woman, yes?
it's the difference between imaginative and material reality. We can be shamans, but shamans still exist within the laws of nature. Shamans don't become panthers in material reality ie no-one can independently observe them as a panther. The problem isn't with material reality, it's that the west believes that material reality is god and that imaginative reality is either stupid or ok but needs to be put in its place. Sane cultures do both/and.
The gender/sex fight is over the definition of 'woman'. Many people believe that women = biologically female. It's simply not possible for humans to change from one biological sex to the other (there are some animals and plants that can, but not humans).
Other people believe that 'woman' is a feeling. So if a man feels like they are a woman, they can be one literally. This is obviously a nonsense in relation to biological reality, so the issue becomes should the needs of gender non-conforming men take priority over the rights and reality of women? And how should society manage that in terms of law, policy, resources etc.
My own view is that men as a class need to do the mahi of making it acceptable for men to be gender non-conforming so that they don't have to try and colonise women's culture. And support women to have our own politics, thanks.
So, we've paddled in the shallow end of indigenous cultures, such as those who have lived in Australia for tens of thousands of years, but we haven't really given ourselves over to the deeper parts of those cultures.
Goethe encourages deep-observation of plants in order to become the plant.
Holding tight the supremacy of material over spiritual is where we in the Western World are failing, is it not so?
Ursula LeGuin had much to say about this and she wasn't, I believe, joking 🙂
Goethe encourages deep-observation of plants in order to become the plant.
Yes, but we don't become a plant in material reality, right? What we do is develop a relational connection with the plant that shifts our consciousness. All very good.
What's not so good is trying to remedy the western overemphasis on material reality with pseudo-spirituality. I'm not being pejorative there, GII isn't a spirituality, but it has aspects of religion that are problematic as a belief system but very problematic when adopted as societal rules.
Here's one of the consequences of allowing dogmatic beliefs to override material reality,
You’re a 10yr old girl. One day you decide to use the toilet while you’re at the market with your mom.
You’re sexually assaulted at knifepoint by a man who’s six and a half feet tall.
You’re told he’s a woman and they call him a her in court
why would you put imagination in quotation marks? Doesn't that diminish the experience of understanding the land as our ancestor? If we understand imagination as being as important as material reality, there's no problem with understanding that some people experience the land as ancestor, is there?
Besides, science shows us that humans and plants share ancestry, so it's not too much of a stretch of the… imagination.
In what way do you believe that humans can become a plant in material reality?
Because imagination has a micro and/plus a macro meaning. Most use its micro form – I wanted to draw attention to the need for thinking more deeply about the word.
What do you mean by "material reality" (quoting from your comment.
"Some people" (again), scoff at the idea that a mountain could be anyone's great etc. grandfather, (in reality).
Who is right?
Are you suggesting multiple realities?
If so, could their not be a reality where men can be women, if their imagination allows it?
What are the micro and macro meanings of the word imagination?
What do you mean by "material reality" (quoting from your comment.
this is a great question, I will answer in a different comment.
What do you mean by reality there?
If so, could their not be a reality where men can be women, if their imagination allows it?
I thought I already answered this. In physical reality, no, it's just not possible. Men can pretend to women in physical reality but that's not the same thing.
If men can be women, then there is no such thing as biological reality, which is obviously nonsense.
If you mean can men be women in the imaginal realm, the problem here, in this context, is that we are now neck deep in an ideology that has powerfully influenced law, policy and society as if it were physical reality. This is both a lie, and it impacts on women and children. Women in particular have been told to shut the fuck up. We won't.
It's not possible to have the conversation about the imaginal realm until the people who want men to imagine themselves women stop trying to remove women's rights. Maslow's hierarchy of needs probably comes in at this point. Absolutely no way will support the progress of an ideology that comes at the expense of a 12 year old girl being sexually assaulted. It would be corrupt to do so.
"Some people" (again), scoff at the idea that a mountain could be anyone's great etc. grandfather, (in reality).
Who is right?
I'm less interested in determining who is right, than I am in exploring the chasm between literal thinkers, imaginative thinkers, and those of us that can think in both at the same time. I'd call it decolonisation of the western mind but that would create another set of communication problems 😉
how do you think I'm using the word imagination? Because I've been arguing to not diminish it as 'just imagination'.
Imagination is indeed an very powerful tool. All the more reason to not be in denial of material reality while using it. That's dangerous.
I think your views on your pet issue are limiting your … imagination 🙂
You haven't said how, but let me guess. You think that my position that men cannot become women is a limit of my imagination. I can imagine people imagining themselves as a panther, but if some dude or chick from Timaru was setting themselves up as a shaman who had a panther ally and was running workshops based on ripping off natives, at a $1000 a pop, I'd have some political critiques about that too. Both/and.
You say, "pretend", I say, "be".
We can pretend the mountain is our ancestor, or it can be.
sounds to me like you want to ignore material reality, the 12 year old girl who was sexually assaulted, and what women want. That's disappointing.
I didn't say anything about pretending to be a mountain. I don't see mana whenua relationship with their maunga in that way at all, so I'm asking you now to take a step back and consider that you are missing important aspects of what I am saying here.
I took some time to plant a dozen Japanese quinces and mull over something that's disturbing me and now, if I may…
…you wrote, "…sounds to me like you want to ignore material reality, the 12 year old girl who was sexually assaulted, and what women want. That's disappointing…."
Wtf???
"Material reality" – the topic of our discussion, and those examples you gave to show what specifically I am ignoring, seem way out of kilter to me. It's a "what about" set-up, isn't it? I made no mention of either/any of those examples, yet you've sheeted them to me and tarred me with the, "you haven't denounced" brush. This is what happened over the assaults during the Posie Parker protest; supporters of your position, your sisters in arms, charged me (and others) with failing to denounce actions that they found abhorrent. Is this the standard for putting forward a view (in this case on the nature of reality and the role of the observer) – a declaration of position on matters chosen by "your crew"?
It seems very strange indeed, to me. Perhaps there are others who baulked at this behaviour, I can't know.
Sorry to be freaking you out. Let me reread the thread and get my bearings on what has happened and come back to you and see if we can reconnect the conversation in a better way.
What do you mean by "material reality" (quoting from your comment.
Material reality in the gender/sex context refers to the stuff of the universe that exists and can be observed and interacted with but is fundamentally independent of human thought.
For instance, humans as a species reproduce via a sexual binary (female eggs, male sperm). There is no variant on that, it's an aspect of material reality that cannot be changed by human imagination. The only way to get a new human is by combining the stuff of the universe that is in the egg and in the sperm.
Even if we develop technologies that take us out of nature/evolution eg cloning humans, that still has to happen using the materials and rules of material reality. Our thinking might conceive of how to do that, but it still gets done with physical stuff.
I guess it's theoretically possible that at some point in the future, humans might be able to create a third sex. We're not even close to being able to think about how to that in real life, let alone grapple with the ethical issues.
So when people engage with plants, that exists in material reality, but they engage via non-material means… although in the case of Goethe, it's both/and, right? so let's say they engage with the plant via material and non-material realms, the person doing the engaging still has the physical body they were born with. That body doesn't acquire the capacity for photosynthesis for instance. Nor does she/he have physical roots that are in relationship with soil microbia.
So whatever else is going on with the process and experience, we can definitively say that the person doesn't not become a plant materially.
The reason this matters (haha) is that material reality is a really great thing! We do ourselves and the rest of nature a great disservice to be in denial of it. The denial of material reality is driving the great crises of the world. The disconnect from our innate spiritual relationship with nature is that too. But they're the same thing, not because they are the same thing, but because both exist as each and as one.
Sorry to go all esoteric there, but what I see happening often is people realising the west has lost the plot (mind/body split etc) and then they eschew material reality because Descartes said some stupid shit about it a while back. Why are we letting that unfortunate part of history drive our thinking?
(it's often observed the similarities between the great religions that sought to transcend the body, and GII which seeks likewise. Both hate women in our fantastically female and natural bodies).
"Material reality in the gender/sex context refers to the stuff of the universe that exists and can be observed and interacted with but is fundamentally independent of human thought."
Material reality must cover all contexts, surely?
In any case, what reality can you describe that is fundamentally different from human thought?
not sure what you mean by cover, but I chose to explain in that particular context because that's how the conversation started (and because I’ve read some excellent philosophical discussions about material reality arising from the sex/gender conflict). We can talk about material reality in lots of contexts, is that what you mean?
In any case, what reality can you describe that is fundamentally different from human thought?
everything that is not human exists in a reality that is independent from human thought. We can think about all the things, but when we are not thinking about them they still exist. I don't have to describe it, it just is.
I'm pretty sure my cat is either hunting rabbits or sleeping it off right now (or maybe doing some other cat thing), but whether I am aware of that or not, he's still out there doing it materially.
"The prevailing theory, called the Copenhagen interpretation, says that a quantum system remains in superposition until it interacts with, or is observed by, the external world."
Schrodinger was making the point that the system described by quantum mechanics appeared ridiculus. The description produced is a distribution of probabilities for what will be observed. But this discussion makes the assumption that there is a reality which is exactly what is then observed in any experiment. The key insight should be that there is some missing part from quantum mechanics which if added allowed the exact outcomes to be found. Maybe this is related to fully integrating gravity into quantum mechanics. Its also possible that the resolution of measurement is too great a barrier to such experiments.
The basic product of philosophy (including logic and math) doesnt have to be true or observable. Thats just a basic fact of (human) thought. So it's a further demand of science that any models rejected by experiment should also be discarded. The question here seems to be should politics be expected to be conducted on a scientific understanding of society? Maybe in future we could prioratise the political issues of which ever fictional character appears in the ACT parties political advertising campaign?
For sure. Myth, religion and reality are each/all story, especially for us/we humans.I've seen/worked with, humans who can understand the story at all – it's not a pretty sight. Story is, of course, entirely manipulable, hence we can find ourselves/are in the thrall of powerful storytellers.
"Fantasy"writers such as Le Guin and Tolkien, when speaking/writing from their deepest selves, do not say myth is "not reality", or magic is "fantasy".
For the truth of the matter 🙂 Read T.H. White's "The Sword in the Stone" and how Merlin teaches young Arthur the true nature of reality.
You can "believe" anything you chose to believe. Fortunately, these days you cannot require other people to believe the same things. Mystical stuff belongs with mystical stuff. It is not biological reality.
A big shoutout to Mels Barton and Greg Presland, Forest and Bird Waitakere, Te Kawerau A Maki and all the good folk of Waima in Titirangi Auckland for the consent conditions that forced Watercare to work so hard for their new pump station.
Hard fought and a great focus for civic environmental activism over the last 5 years,
It will supply water to approximately 300,000 Aucklanders, about 20 per cent of Auckland’s water.
In particular top score to the neighbourhood team for squeezing out $8.25 out of Waitakere to put to local biodoversity and conservation work. Looking forward to really sound preparation for construction starting 2027.
The Post-UMD poll finds 39 percent of Americans who say Fox News is their primary news source believe the FBI organized and encouraged the Jan. 6 attack, compared with 16 percent of CNN or MSNBC viewers and 13 percent who get most of their news from ABC, CBS or NBC. The poll finds 44 percent of those who voted for Trump say the FBI instigated the attack.
If Gharaman's medication is that severe on her judgement, why is she in Parliament making law? Shaw will need to give her a fair amount of sick leave while the prosecution goes through.
I reckons you can stick your attributes up your forum
[You’re obviously a troll who tries to be funny and belligerently displays the usual lack of honesty and integrity and as such, your comments are piss-poor. You’ve been warned before for trolling. No more warning – Incognito]
"First Husband Peter Davis wrote to the Herald on Tuesday accusing them of formenting happy mischief.
A senior journalist suggested to me “Formenting Happy Mischief” would be a better slogan for kiwiblog than the Herald. I'm inclined to agree.
I don't have a tagline for the blog I quite like the idea of using one supplied (indirectly) by Peter Davis!"
It seems to have become 'fomenting.' Whichever it is, it's a great opportunity for posters on that site to start the year flaunting their appalling attitudes.
And for Farrar to play D J Trump: "People tell me that …", reality and fact become established and the invitation to swim in the sewer and ignorance is made and accepted.
Golriz Ghahraman is no indication of us living in a scummy country sad and wretched. You go to Farrar to see that.
The word "happy" is entirely inappropriate for Farrar's pitiful blog, which is (unsurprisingly, considering its proprietor) almost entirely hateful and virulently racist. This writer, i.e. moi, used to hang out there on my occasional periods of exile from The Standard (H/T Lin Prent, weka, Incognito, and Te Reo Putake).
You did say the prosecution was going through. That might happen but it hasn't happened yet. Not that a detail like that stops a resident of Wānaka from the declaration.
So, Ad has (not to mention the nonentity R the Goodfellow) found her guilty regardless? Maybe no-one, including herself, was aware of the possible effect on her.
Either something went radically wrong for her, or she is the latest manifestation of DP. Whatever, I feel sympathy for her. She is a very intelligent young woman.
Innocent until proven guilty but if found guilty I hope she gets a conviction and that its the end of her career.
I'm bloody sick of politicians running around acting like the rules don't apply to them, the behaviour of MPs in the last year has been disgusting.
We've had MPs boast about trying to interfere in court matters, lying about getting rid of their shares to cabinet, resisting arrest, a former or current I don't keep track with the torys getting thrown off a plane and not being charged for it and now we have one allegedly shoplifting.
If she's guilty I believe all MPs as representatives of the public should face the harshest available punishment according to the law broken (laws that they write) if they break a law.
She gets paid boat loads and is just a list mp.
I hope it's all a beat up but the public is sick to death of our representatives acting like the laws they write don't apply to them.
It's a high pressure job but noones forcing anyone to do it, individuals who are burnt out can should step down.
Normal people don't have the options or the money or the resources these people do.
Kiri Allen was not charged with resisting arrest. Refusing to accompany is the one applying with driving a car offences (charged with careless driving).
The legal issue is covered in this story – I suspect she will lose given the type of incident and normal practice takes away the relevance of a lawyer etc.
Ad, I know I said I was taking a break, however, if it's MS, then please leave her alone on that topic.
It's never ever anybody's fault that anybody has a disability and it is not her fault that she has MS and there is a lot of value in having someone with a disability or sickness being in politics and its sphere than if there was nobody in politics with such a background.
We need more people with disabilities and sicknesses to be represented in Aotearoa/NZ politics, not less.
These are perilous times and a lot of lives are on the line. It's only fair that we have political representation regardless of the times we find ourselves in.
"… and there is a lot of value in having someone with a disability or sickness being in politics and its sphere than if there was nobody in politics with such a background".
Value lies in comprehensive research, consultation with advocates and appropriate consideration for those with sickness and disabilities.
The idea that representatives are required is flawed. Perspectives, and needs should be represented and that should be done by standard processes.
Given the experience of women on here, it is unlikely that many men have the capability of achieving "comprehensive research, consultation with advocates and appropriate consideration ".
However, relying on this to be rectified by including a female representative – who may also fail at the above – is a flawed notion.
nevertheless, if you argue that representation isn't needed, what would an appropriate process look like for say a group making decisions about women where that group was all men.
If those men – actually understood and gave due consideration to the needs of women – and effectively represented and advocated for them, then they are more effective than a group of women who do not.
The fact of being female – doesn't mean you are an effective advocate for women.
Any representative – while they may be exceptional advocates for a particular demographic also have to ensure that all other consitituents are represented as well. ie. a politician concerned about women's health, uses processes that serve specific health needs for men.
If those men – actually understood and gave due consideration to the needs of women – and effectively represented and advocated for them, then they are more effective than a group of women who do not.
I don't think anyone has suggested a group of women who don't understand or give due consideration to the needs of women, so that's the wrong comparison.
The comparison is between qualified women and qualified men, all other things being equal, would a group that included women do better for women than a group of men?
Any representative – while they may be exceptional advocates for a particular demographic also have to ensure that all other consitituents are represented as well. ie. a politician concerned about women's health, uses processes that serve specific health needs for men.
Sure, but that ensuring might be by recoginising the limits of one's own knowledge base and experience and making sure that the relevant experience and knowledge is included via people of the class being affected.
No-one can represent everyone all the time at the level required.
Men will never be as good as women at understand childbirth for instance. Yes, the women representing birthing women should have given birth and be qualified. And that makes them better at the job than men. I'm not talking individual exemptions to the principle here.
"The comparison is between qualified women and qualified men, all other things being equal, would a group that included women do better for women than a group of men?"
If the processes are robust, they should achieve the same.
If you have a definitive answer, then that part of the process should be improved.
The idea that representatives are required is flawed.
please explain how.
Perspectives, and needs should be represented and that should be done by standard processes.
using people with first hand experience is part of the standard processes. It doesn't preclude research, consultation and appropriate consideration, it adds to those things.
Meanwhile, across many sectors, we have seen that consultation with groups by people not of that group but who hold the power, leads to poor policy and outcomes.
In the disability area, an example would be town planning and the push towards cycling/walking and non-car spaces that pays lip service to disability and constantly gets it wrong. That is less likely to happen if people with disabilities were part of the planning process (and I don't mean the odd token person with a disability).
Having a disability in and of itself doesn't qualify, having an otherwise qualified person who also has a disability adds perspectives that are needed.
I'm not suggesting the processes are not flawed. They need to be improved to ensure that consultation, research and appropriate considerations are made. Advocates may be elected as representatives – all good – but should not be required for the processes to be effective.
Unfortunately, there are the usual political and administrative impediments to good representation. This can be addressed, with or without specific representatives.
I believe I've been pretty clear. Processes should exist, and be in constant review for improvement, that ensures the needs of all people are represented in policies and governance.
This allows full-time advocates to concentrate on those they advocate for, without the additional time costs and burdens that as political representatives they should devote to other groups.
Consultation with such advocates – should definitely be part of a comprehensive and effective process.
I don't think I have anything further to add. Unless you have something specific you wanted to ask.
They should already exist. It is apparent that if they do – they are inadequate. Have a look at who was consulted regarding policy at Sports NZ that would impact on women and girls in sports:
But if you are happy with inadequate, inefficient and ineffective processes as long as a token representative is in place, that's your call. I have no inclination to spend time attempting to change your mind.
I am myself a disabled person and I have had some experience in politics and I do not like that you think to exclude our bodies and minds by delegating our politics to some well-meaning people all the time. Allies matters, however, there's never a true substitute for authenticity. Sure, there's stinkers and pull-up ladderers in our group, however, that's par for the course for politics. We can't help these who would backstab us or destroy our gains. That's the risk. We should strive nonetheless.
There is nothing better than somebody who can understand and gets it completely and helps you to the degree that even allies cannot. Having agency and power to make your own future is not to be underestimated. It turns you from being a spectator to someone who can do what you think is best for better or worse.
Agency and the ability to execute our own political agenda is extremely vital. All successful political social/economic movements ever created has leaders, representatives and followers who has the authentic experience and lives that comes of going through that sort of experience.
What this tells me is that we still need more people who knows what it's like to be disabled and gets it and can work for us.
Allies are always valuable and are appreciated and should be treasured, however, one thing is clear, it's ultimately our lives that we should be in control of, not be controlled by others. Having ourselves being able to find a way to empower and make our life better means we will be more able to pull our weight to help you right back to make a better future for all.
That is what matters. Being able to be on a more equal basis with other people. We would be more able to make a more universal society where we can be more able to be more involved in all of our futures.
And – I was not talking about tokenism nor advocating for such. I am advocating for a fuller vision of disabled people being woven more into the fabric of our greater society. It was always implicit in my argument that disabled people with some prior knowledge of the matters affecting ourselves were going to be what I was pushing for. Tokenism was never the aim. That you think any of what I was talking about was going to lead to Tokenism is not what I’m aiming for with my arguments: I’m aiming for addition and participation and agency and ability to exercise our voice and power amongst many in our society.
Your arguments seem to imply that we don't place any value on expertise, only representation when I don't actually think that. Ultimately, I am saying that we need more representation in the halls of power with actual expertise and plenty of ability to wield such expertise on the same basis as able-bodied people who we are working with on our own affairs and lives.
Nothing about us without us is what we are saying basically. We need to have power and a say in our own future as disabled people so we can return the favour to everyone else.
“The woman has MS. Medications used to manage the symptoms of MS are a who’s who of brain breakers that can affect moral decision making.”
Speaking as someone who has a close friend with MS – this is deeply insulting. Medication side effects may affect your ability in a range of areas – however, your moral code is not one of them.
If she is indeed so affected by side effects of her medication, that she can't make rational decisions about every-day matters – then she does not belong in the high-pressure environment of the House of Representatives.
List of common medications used to treat MS here – cognitive dysfunction – let alone affecting moral decision making- is not listed as a risk factor for any of them.
As in many matters medical, it often helps to get a second expert opinion.
Maybe the medications that Ghahraman has been prescribed to treat her MS condition (diagnosed in 2018) don't adversely affect her cognition, and maybe the condition itself doesn't affect her cognition, but usually I'd prefer more than a single anecdotal claim (based on the experiences of one of Belladonna's close friends) about how MS and MS treatments can affect people, before coming to a conclusion – we're all individuals.
My reading now of the initial comment is that it was about cognitive impairment (from meds) that impact on ethical decisions, rather than the meds impairing ethics/morals.
This kind of poorly worded speculation potentially does a great deal of harm to all MS sufferers in the workplace. No one wants their boss to be thinking that their medication impacts on their ethics.
Nor, for the vast majority of MS sufferers (yet to see any evidence that it impacts any, but I'm willing to be convinced) – is there any impact of medication on their cognitive abilities or impulse control around decision-making.
People with MS already have a very hard row to hoe, with an 'invisible' disability. They don't need any added burdens arising from public misconception of the side-effects of the medication required to manage their condition.
Fair call B – the human brain is a complex beast, so it's possible that MS medications (or the condition itself) could impair decision making (judgement, cognition etc.), without affecting moral decision making.
Green MP shoplifting reports: What is Scotties Boutique? [11 Jan 2024]]
While there is not yet confirmation about what occurred, the Green Party said it was aware of the accusations and Ghahraman, who is seventh on the party's list, has been stood down from her portfolio positions while the facts were established and until the matter was "resolved".
…
The police said they received a report "about an incident" on December 23 and initial inquiries are being made. Yesterday police said they could not confirm if Ghahraman was the subject of a police investigation.
I don't know what Ghahraman did or didn't do at Scotties Boutique, why she did or didn't do it, whether her decision making was impaired and, if so, what might have contributed to the hypothetical impairment. Seems to be a lot of (pre)judgement given the apparent lack of facts.
SSRIs, SNRIs, and anticonvulsants are used in the management of MS symptoms.
Here, we investigated whether this hyperaltruistic disposition is susceptible to monoaminergic control. We observed dissociable effects of the serotonin reuptake inhibitor citalopram and the dopamine precursor levodopa on decisions to inflict pain on oneself and others for financial gain. Computational models of choice behavior showed that citalopram increased harm aversion for both self and others, while levodopa reduced hyperaltruism. The effects of citalopram were stronger than those of levodopa. Crucially, neither drug influenced the physical perception of pain or other components of choice such as motor impulsivity or loss aversion suggesting a direct and specific influence of serotonin and dopamine on the valuation of harm. We also found evidence for dose dependency of these effects. Finally, the drugs had dissociable effects on response times, with citalopram enhancing behavioral inhibition and levodopa reducing slowing related to being responsible for another’s fate.
Nothing about changing ethical behaviour. If you think it is not OK to steal (or cause pain to others, in your example), taking the MS drugs isn't going to change that ethical decision.
What may change is your appreciation of consequences for your actions. This is not ethics, it's risk/reward.
I'm curious how you think they do. Cognition can obviously be affected, but morality? Do you mean that cognition is impaired and this makes decisions more difficult, or do you mean people's sense of morality is altered?
Related to my own experience with how SNRIs and an anticonvulsant prescribed to treat neuropathic pain altered my decision making processes, no.
It's more a loss of impulse control and decision making abilities combined with a brain fade/blank page/forgetfulness thing. More than once I found myself having to return to a shop because I'd simply forgotten to pay. Driving was diabolical, too. I'd look right and see a car and know that I had to give way, look left, forget about the car on my right, and off I'd go. Multiple near misses until I gave up driving.
The other biggie was suicide ideation. For someone who'd never ever thought about taking their own life, being preoccupied with self harm was as scary AF.
Taking medication doesn't change your ethics. It may change your risk assessment (you don't perceive the consequences of your actions) – but if you think something is 'wrong' before you start your course of medication you'll still think it is 'wrong' while you're taking the drugs.
I stayed out of this discussion for a number of reasons, but ethical behaviour and moral judgement/moral decision-making can be affected by a wide range of medical (and non-medical!) conditions and treatments, incl. medication, obviously. Anyway, a person’s ethical values and principles are not as hard & fast as some (many?) seem to think.
Belladonna @ 15.1.2
I suffer from severe osteoarthritis and am on a 24 hour pain regime. The consequence of that regime – plus the pain I still have to endure – leaves me tired and absent minded. I have walked out of a shop a few times without paying and the assistant has had to call me back. Since I have to use a crutch to get around they seem to know it was not deliberate and there have been no problems.
I have no idea what happened to Gholriz Gharaman, but if she was under some stress from the drugs she has to take, it may have had a bearing on what happened. Certain drugs can have negative effects for some people but not others.
Anne, I agree that medication and long-term pain can cause absent mindedness or brain fog – but that's not what was being alleged here. The claim was that it can "affect moral decision making". Which is AFAIK, completely untrue – and deeply insulting to people with MS.
OK. I see where you are coming from. Perhaps the term "affect moral decision making" is not appropriate. People who are on drugs, including medically prescribed drugs, can sometimes act in a way which is not normal for them. Its possible this is what happened here. Time will tell.
You seem to have a friend for every occasion with respect to political discussion. It's quite remarkable.
Perhaps you could have a conversation with your friend about the affects a MS diagnosis has on mental health. How did your friend fare 1 year after diagnosis, 2 years? For instance, was it difficult to accept having their future potentially ripped away from them?
I believe everyone has a different experience of disease and medication and it seems to me you expect a lot from sufferers, and are being a bit mean about one particular sufferer, for political purposes.
For instance, was it difficult to accept having their future potentially ripped away from them?
That is the kind of comment which inclines me to believe that you have zero practical acquaintance with anyone with a long-term disability or medical diagnosis.
Fail to see in what way I was 'mean' about Ghahraman. I was pointing out that Joe90's claim that MS medication can "affect moral decision making" is bunkum. And dangerous bunkum, at that.
I am perfectly willing to believe (if and when there are some actual examples provided – which, so far, there have not been) that medication for MS can affect decision-making and/or risk/reward decisions. Certainly we see this as a side effect of treatment for other medical conditions. What it can't do is change people's ethics or morals.
"Frame up" implies there is no truth to the allegations. If that were the case, Ghahraman would have vigorously denied the allegation (possibly with an associated libel claim) – and been supported by the Green Party.
The current actions (refusal to comment, coupled with removal from her portfolios), imply that there is a case to answer.
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Chris Trotter writes – Had Zheng He’s fleet sailed east, not west, in the early Fifteenth Century, how different our world would be. There is little reason to suppose that the sea-going junks of the Ming Dynasty, among the largest and most sophisticated sailing vessels ever constructed, would have failed ...
David Farrar writes – Two articles give a useful contrast in balance. Both seek to be neutral explainer articles. This one in the Herald on Social Investment covers the pros and cons nicely. It links to critical pieces and talks about aspects that failed and aspects that are more ...
The tikanga regulations will compel law students to be taught that a system which does not conform with the rule of law is nevertheless law which should be observed and applied…Gary Judd KC writes – I have made a complaint to Parliament’s Regulation ...
The future of Te Huia, the train between Hamilton and Auckland, has been getting a lot of attention recently as current funding for it is only in place till the end of June. The government initially agreed to a five year trial, through to April 2026, but that was subject ...
TL;DR: Hamas has just agreed to Israel’s ceasefire plan. Nelson hospital’s rebuild has been cut back to save money. The OECD suggests New Zealand break up network monopolies, including in electricity. PM Christopher Luxon’s news conference on a prison expansion announcement last night was his messiest yet.Here’s my top six ...
A homicide in Ponsonby, a manhunt with a killer on the run. The nation’s leader stands before a press conference reassuring a frightened nation that he’ll sort it out, he’ll keep them safe, he’ll build some new prison spaces.Sorry what? There’s a scary dude on the run with a gun ...
Hi,I know it’s been awhile since there’s been any Webworm merch — and today that all changes!Over the last four months, I’ve been working with New Zealand artist Jess Johnson to create a series of t-shirts, caps and stickers that are infused with Webworm DNA — and as of right ...
The OECD’s chief economist yesterday laid it on the line for the new Government: bring the deficit under control or face higher Reserve Bank interest rates for longer. And to bring the deficit under control, she meant not borrowing for tax cuts. But there was more. Without policy changes—introducing a ...
After a hiatus of over four months Selwyn Manning and I finally got it together to re-start the “A View from Afar” podcast series. We shall see how we go but aim to do 2 episodes per month if possible. … Continue reading → ...
In 2008, the UK Parliament passed the Climate Change Act 2008. The law established a system of targets, budgets, and plans, with inbuilt accountability mechanisms; the aim was to break the cycle of empty promises and replace it with actual progress towards emissions reduction. The law was passed with near-universal ...
Buzz from the Beehive Local Water Done Well – let’s be blunt – is a silly name, but the first big initiative to put it into practice has gone done well. This success is reflected in the headline on an RNZ report:District mayors welcome Auckland’s new water deal with ...
This is a re-post from Yale Climate ConnectionsA farmworker cleans the solar panels of a solar water pump in the village of Jagadhri, Haryana Country, India. (Photo credit: Prashanth Vishwanathan/ IWMI) Decisions made in India over the next few years will play a key role in global ...
Lindsay Mitchell writes – The Children’s Minister, Karen Chhour, intends to repeal Section 7AA from the Oranga Tamariki Act 1989 because it creates conflict between claimed Crown Treaty obligations and the child’s best interests. In her words, “Oranga Tamariki’s governing principles and its act should be colour ...
Geoffrey Miller writes – The gloves are off. That might seem to be the undertone of surprisingly tough talk from New Zealand’s foreign and trade ministers. Winston Peters, the foreign minister, may be facing legal action after making allegations about former Australian foreign minister Bob Carr on Radio New Zealand. ...
Brian Easton writes – This is about the time that the Treasury will be locking up its economic forecasts to be published in the 2024 Budget Economic and Fiscal Update (BEFU) on budget day, 30 May. I am not privy to what they will be (I will report on them ...
TL;DR:Winston Peters is reported to have won a budget increase for MFAT. David Seymour wanted his Ministry of Regulation to be three times bigger than the Productivity Commission. Simeon Brown is appointing a Crown Monitor to Watercare to protect the Claytons Crown Guarantee he had to give ratings agencies ...
Today New Zealand First will introduce a Member’s Bill that will protect women’s spaces. The ‘Fair Access to Bathrooms Bill’ will require, primarily in the interest and safety of women and girls, that all new non-domestic publicly accessible buildings provide separate, clearly demarcated, unisex and single sex bathrooms. This Bill ...
The Green Party is welcoming Climate Change Minister Simon Watts’ continuation of Hon. James Shaw’s cross-party work on climate adaptation, now in the form of a Finance and Expenditure Committee Inquiry. ...
The National Government plans to cut 390 jobs at ACC, including roles in the areas of prevention of sexual violence, road safety and workplace safety. ...
The Government has been caught in opposition to evidence once again as it looks to usher in tried, tested and failed work seminar obligations for job-seeking beneficiaries. ...
The Green Party is welcoming the announcement by the Minister Responsible for RMA Reform Chris Bishop to approve most of the Wellington City Council’s District Plan recommendations. ...
David Seymour has failed to get the sweeping cuts he wanted to the free and healthy school lunch programme, Labour education spokesperson Jan Tinetti said. ...
Hon Willie Jackson has been invited by the Oxford Union to debate the motion “This House Believes British Museums are not Very British’ on May 23rd. ...
Green Party MP Hūhana Lyndon says her Public Works (Prohibition of Compulsory Acquisition of Māori Land) Amendment Bill is an opportunity to right some past wrongs around the alienation of Māori land. ...
A senior, highly respected King’s Counsel with decades of experience in our law courts, Gary Judd KC, has filed a complaint about compulsory tikanga Māori studies for law students - highlighting the utter depths of absurdity this woke cultural madness has taken our society. The tikanga regulations will compel law ...
The Government needs to be clear with the people of the Nelson Marlborough region about the changes it is considering for the Nelson Hospital rebuild, Labour health spokesperson Ayesha Verrall said. ...
Ministers must front up about which projects it will push through under its Fast Track Approvals legislation, Labour environment spokesperson Rachel Brooking said today. ...
The Government is again adding to New Zealand’s growing unemployment, this time cutting jobs at the agencies responsible for urban development and growing much needed housing stock. ...
With Minister Karen Chhour indicating in the House today that she either doesn’t know or care about the frontline cuts she’s making to Oranga Tamariki, we risk seeing more and more of our children falling through the cracks. ...
The Labour Party is saddened to learn of the death of Sir Robert Martin, a globally renowned disability advocate who led the way for disability rights both in New Zealand and internationally. ...
Labour is calling for the Government to urgently rethink its coalition commitment to restart live animal exports, Labour animal welfare spokesperson Rachel Boyack said. ...
Today’s Financial Stability Report has once again highlighted that poverty and deep inequality are political choices - and this Government is choosing to make them worse. ...
The Green Party is calling on the Government to do more for our households in most need as unemployment rises and the cost of living crisis endures. ...
Unemployment is on the rise and it’s only going to get worse under this Government, Labour finance spokesperson Barbara Edmonds said. Stats NZ figures show the unemployment rate grew to 4.3 percent in the March quarter from 4 percent in the December quarter. “This is the second rise in unemployment ...
The New Zealand Labour Party welcomes the entering into force of the European Union and New Zealand free trade agreement. This agreement opens the door for a huge increase in trade opportunities with a market of 450 million people who are high value discerning consumers of New Zealand goods and ...
The National-led Government continues its fiscal jiggery pokery with its Pharmac announcement today, Labour Health spokesperson Ayesha Verrall says. “The government has increased Pharmac funding but conceded it will only make minimal increases in access to medicine”, said Ayesha Verrall “This is far from the bold promises made to fund ...
This afternoon’s interim Waitangi Tribunal report must be taken seriously as it affects our most vulnerable children, Labour children’s spokesperson Willow-Jean Prime. ...
Te Pāti Māori are demanding the New Zealand Government support an international independent investigation into mass graves that have been uncovered at two hospitals on the Gaza strip, following weeks of assault by Israeli troops. Among the 392 bodies that have been recovered, are children and elderly civilians. Many of ...
Our two-tiered system for veterans’ support is out of step with our closest partners, and all parties in Parliament should work together to fix it, Labour veterans’ affairs spokesperson Greg O’Connor said. ...
Stripping two Ministers of their portfolios just six months into the job shows Christopher Luxon’s management style is lacking, Labour Leader Chris Hipkins said. ...
Tonight’s court decision to overturn the summons of the Children’s Minister has enabled the Crown to continue making decisions about Māori without evidence, says Te Pāti Māori spokesperson for Children, Mariameno Kapa-Kingi. “The judicial system has this evening told the nation that this government can do whatever they want when ...
It appears Nicola Willis is about to pull the rug out from under the feet of local communities still dealing with the aftermath of last year’s severe weather, and local councils relying on funding to build back from these disasters. ...
The Government is making short-sighted changes to the Resource Management Act (RMA) that will take away environmental protection in favour of short-term profits, Labour’s environment spokesperson Rachel Brooking said today. ...
Labour welcomes the release of the report into the North Island weather events and looks forward to working with the Government to ensure that New Zealand is as prepared as it can be for the next natural disaster. ...
A high-level New Zealand political delegation in Honiara today congratulated the new Government of Solomon Islands, led by Jeremiah Manele, on taking office. “We are privileged to meet the new Prime Minister and members of his Cabinet during his government’s first ten days in office,” Deputy Prime Minister and ...
New Zealand voted in favour of a resolution broadening Palestine’s participation at the United Nations General Assembly overnight, Foreign Minister Winston Peters says. “The resolution enhances the rights of Palestine to participate in the work of the UN General Assembly while stopping short of admitting Palestine as a full ...
Introduction Good morning. It’s a great privilege to be here at the 2024 Infrastructure Symposium. I was extremely happy when the Prime Minister asked me to be his Minister for Infrastructure. It is one of the great barriers holding the New Zealand economy back from achieving its potential. Building high ...
Defence Minister Judith Collins today announced the upcoming Budget will include new funding of $571 million for Defence Force pay and projects. “Our servicemen and women do New Zealand proud throughout the world and this funding will help ensure we retain their services and expertise as we navigate an increasingly ...
New Zealand’s ability to cope with climate change will be strengthened as part of the Government’s focus to build resilience as we rebuild the economy, Climate Change Minister Simon Watts says. “An enduring and long-term approach is needed to provide New Zealanders and the economy with certainty as the climate ...
Jobseeker beneficiaries who have work obligations must now meet with MSD within two weeks of their benefit starting to determine their next step towards finding a job, Social Development and Employment Minister Louise Upston says. “A key part of the coalition Government’s plan to have 50,000 fewer people on Jobseeker ...
A new standalone Social Investment Agency will power-up the social investment approach, driving positive change for our most vulnerable New Zealanders, Social Investment Minister Nicola Willis says. “Despite the Government currently investing more than $70 billion every year into social services, we are not seeing the outcomes we want for ...
Check against delivery Good morning. It is a pleasure to be with you to outline the Coalition Government’s approach to our first Budget. Thank you Mark Skelly, President of the Hutt Valley Chamber of Commerce, together with your Board and team, for hosting me. I’d like to acknowledge His Worship ...
Your Excellency Ambassador Meredith, Members of the Diplomatic Corps and Ambassadors from European Union Member States, Ministerial colleagues, Members of Parliament, and other distinguished guests, Thank you everyone for joining us. Ladies and gentlemen - In diplomacy, we often speak of ‘close’ and ‘long-standing’ relations. ...
The Therapeutic Products Act (TPA) will be repealed this year so that a better regime can be put in place to provide New Zealanders safe and timely access to medicines, medical devices and health products, Associate Health Minister Casey Costello announced today. “The medicines and products we are talking about ...
The Minister Responsible for RMA Reform, Chris Bishop, today released his decision on twenty recommendations referred to him by the Wellington City Council relating to its Intensification Planning Instrument, after the Council rejected those recommendations of the Independent Hearings Panel and made alternative recommendations. “Wellington notified its District Plan on ...
Rape Awareness Week (6-10 May) is an important opportunity to acknowledge the continued effort required by government and communities to ensure that all New Zealanders can live free from violence, say Ministers Karen Chhour and Louise Upston. “With 1 in 3 women and 1 in 8 men experiencing sexual violence ...
Associate Education Minister David Seymour has today announced that the Government will be delivering a more efficient Healthy School Lunches Programme, saving taxpayers approximately $107 million a year compared to how Labour funded it, by embracing innovation and commercial expertise. “We are delivering on our commitment to treat taxpayers’ money ...
New research on the impacts of extreme weather on coastal marine habitats in Tairāwhiti and Hawke’s Bay will help fishery managers plan for and respond to any future events, Oceans and Fisheries Minister Shane Jones says. A report released today on research by Niwa on behalf of Fisheries New Zealand ...
Deputy Prime Minister and Foreign Minister Winston Peters will lead a broad political delegation on a five-stop Pacific tour next week to strengthen New Zealand’s engagement with the region. The delegation will visit Solomon Islands, Papua New Guinea, Vanuatu, New Caledonia, and Tuvalu. “New Zealand has deep and ...
There has been a material decline in gas production according to figures released today by the Gas Industry Co. Figures released by the Gas Industry Company show that there was a 12.5 per cent reduction in gas production during 2023, and a 27.8 per cent reduction in gas production in the ...
Defence Minister Judith Collins tonight announced the recipients of the Minister of Defence Awards of Excellence for Industry, saying they all contribute to New Zealanders’ security and wellbeing. “Congratulations to this year’s recipients, whose innovative products and services play a critical role in the delivery of New Zealand’s defence capabilities, ...
Welcome to you all - it is a pleasure to be here this evening.I would like to start by thanking Greg Lowe, Chair of the New Zealand Defence Industry Advisory Council, for co-hosting this reception with me. This evening is about recognising businesses from across New Zealand and overseas who in ...
It is a pleasure to be speaking to you as the Minister for Digitising Government. I would like to thank Akolade for the invitation to address this Summit, and to acknowledge the great effort you are making to grow New Zealand’s digital future. Today, we stand at the cusp of ...
New Zealand is urging both Israel and Hamas to agree to an immediate ceasefire to avoid the further humanitarian catastrophe that military action in Rafah would unleash, Foreign Minister Winston Peters says. “The immense suffering in Gaza cannot be allowed to worsen further. Both sides have a responsibility to ...
A new online data dashboard released today as part of the Government’s school attendance action plan makes more timely daily attendance data available to the public and parents, says Associate Education Minister David Seymour. The interactive dashboard will be updated once a week to show a national average of how ...
Foreign Minister Winston Peters has announced Rosemary Banks will be New Zealand’s next Ambassador to the United States of America. “Our relationship with the United States is crucial for New Zealand in strategic, security and economic terms,” Mr Peters says. “New Zealand and the United States have a ...
The Government is considering creating a new tier of minerals permitting that will make it easier for hobby miners to prospect for gold. “New Zealand was built on gold, it’s in our DNA. Our gold deposits, particularly in regions such as Otago and the West Coast have always attracted fortune-hunters. ...
Minister for Trade Todd McClay today announced that New Zealand and the United Arab Emirates (UAE) will commence negotiations on a free trade agreement (FTA). Minister McClay met with his counterpart UAE Trade Minister Dr Thani bin Ahmed Al Zeyoudi in Dubai, where they announced the launch of negotiations on a ...
New Zealand Sign Language Week is an excellent opportunity for all Kiwis to give the language a go, Disabilities Issues Minister Louise Upston says. This week (May 6 to 12) is New Zealand Sign Language (NZSL) Week. The theme is “an Aotearoa where anyone can sign anywhere” and aims to ...
Six tertiary students have been selected to work on NASA projects in the US through a New Zealand Space Scholarship, Space Minister Judith Collins announced today. “This is a fantastic opportunity for these talented students. They will undertake internships at NASA’s Ames Research Center or its Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL), where ...
New Zealanders will be safer because of a $1.9 billion investment in more frontline Corrections officers, more support for offenders to turn away from crime, and more prison capacity, Corrections Minister Mark Mitchell says. “Our Government said we would crack down on crime. We promised to restore law and order, ...
The OECD’s latest report on New Zealand reinforces the importance of bringing Government spending under control, Finance Minister Nicola Willis says. The OECD conducts country surveys every two years to review its members’ economic policies. The 2024 New Zealand survey was presented in Wellington today by OECD Chief Economist Clare Lombardelli. ...
The Government has delivered on its election promise to provide a financially sustainable model for Auckland under its Local Water Done Well plan. The plan, which has been unanimously endorsed by Auckland Council’s Governing Body, will see Aucklanders avoid the previously projected 25.8 per cent water rates increases while retaining ...
Foreign Minister Winston Peters discussed the need for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza, and enhanced cooperation in the Pacific with German Foreign Minister Annalena Baerbock during her first official visit to New Zealand today. "New Zealand and Germany enjoy shared interests and values, including the rule of law, democracy, respect for the international system ...
The Minister Responsible for RMA Reform, Chris Bishop today released his decision on four recommendations referred to him by the Western Bay of Plenty District Council, opening the door to housing growth in the area. The Council’s Plan Change 92 allows more homes to be built in existing and new ...
Thank you, John McKinnon and the New Zealand China Council for the invitation to speak to you today. Thank you too, all members of the China Council. Your effort has played an essential role in helping to build, shape, and grow a balanced and resilient relationship between our two ...
The Government is modernising insurance law to better protect Kiwis and provide security in the event of a disaster, Commerce and Consumer Affairs Minister Andrew Bayly announced today. “These reforms are long overdue. New Zealand’s insurance law is complicated and dated, some of which is more than 100 years old. ...
The coalition Government is refreshing its approach to supporting pay equity claims as time-limited funding for the Pay Equity Taskforce comes to an end, Public Service Minister Nicola Willis says. “Three years ago, the then-government introduced changes to the Equal Pay Act to support pay equity bargaining. The changes were ...
Structured literacy will change the way New Zealand children learn to read - improving achievement and setting students up for success, Education Minister Erica Stanford says. “Being able to read and write is a fundamental life skill that too many young people are missing out on. Recent data shows that ...
Trade Minister Todd McClay says Canada’s refusal to comply in full with a CPTPP trade dispute ruling in our favour over dairy trade is cynical and New Zealand has no intention of backing down. Mr McClay said he has asked for urgent legal advice in respect of our ‘next move’ ...
The rights of our children and young people will be enhanced by changes the coalition Government will make to strengthen oversight of the Oranga Tamariki system, including restoring a single Children’s Commissioner. “The Government is committed to delivering better public services that care for our most at-risk young people and ...
The Government is making it easier for minor changes to be made to a building consent so building a home is easier and more affordable, Building and Construction Minister Chris Penk says. “The coalition Government is focused on making it easier and cheaper to build homes so we can ...
New Zealand lost a true legend when internationally renowned disability advocate Sir Robert Martin (KNZM) passed away at his home in Whanganui last night, Disabilities Issues Minister Louise Upston says. “Our Government’s thoughts are with his wife Lynda, family and community, those he has worked with, the disability community in ...
Good evening – Before discussing the challenges and opportunities facing New Zealand’s foreign policy, we’d like to first acknowledge the New Zealand Institute of International Affairs. You have contributed to debates about New Zealand foreign policy over a long period of time, and we thank you for hosting us. ...
PNG Post-Courier New Zealand High Commissioner Peter Zwart and PNG Defence Minister Dr Billy Joseph welcomed a C-130 Hercules to Port Moresby this week to support Papua New Guinea’s response to the March 24 earthquake and recent severe flooding. “Papua New Guinea has requested New Zealand’s assistance to transport emergency ...
Grub Street King Luxon rode through the streets Of King’s Landing, and was troubled By the sight of hungry urchins in the mud. “Who would be the best of my Lords To deal with this negative optic?” He pondered. The answer came to him instantly. “Seymour!” he said to himself. ...
“The Bill does not provide environmental protection, good quality decision making, certainty, public participation or speed. It should be withdrawn.” ...
RNZ News Television New Zealand has breached its collective agreement with the E tū union when deciding on discontinuing programmes, the Employment Relations Authority has ruled. It was announced in March that 68 staff members who work for news programmes Midday and Tonight, consumer justice programme Fair Go, current affairs ...
Asia Pacific Report Barangay New Zealand’s Rene Molina has interviewed the country’s first Filipino Green MP Francisco Hernandez who was sworn into Parliament yesterday as the party’s latest member. This is the first interview with Hernandez who replaces former Green Party co-leader James Shaw after his retirement from politics to ...
An Australian Strategic Policy Institute report says Pillar Two could raise the industry to state of the art capability - or "crush" it "under the weight of the globe's biggest player". ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Marlene Longbottom, Associate Professor, Indigenous Education & Research Centre, James Cook University ShutterstockThis article contains information on deaths in custody and the violence experienced by First Nations people in encounters with the Australian carceral system. It also contains references to ...
“Instead of following along countries that are investing in death and better ways of killing people faster, we need to invest in life and in making Aotearoa a fair, just and equitable place where everyone has what they need for a dignified life.” ...
MARIAMENO KAPA-KINGI, TPM MP FOR TAI TOKERAU This Government will not waver in its mission to exterminate Māori. CHRISTOPHER LUXON Oh well look you know I don’t think that hard-working Kiwis want to hear language like that. It’s just really unhelpful rhetoric. My Government is genuinely committed to advancing outcomes ...
The body positivity movement started with women confronting the unrealistic expectations and unrepresentative portrayals of them in media and advertising. Men weren’t part of it … their bodies hadn’t been sexualised to the same extremes and they didn’t really need it. But now that’s changed. And in a warped sort ...
The New Zealand comedy legend takes us through her life in television, including the time she hugged Elton John and the unshakeable legacy of a girl named Lyn. In 1981, Ginette McDonald stood on the stage of Auckland’s St James Theatre and directly addressed Queen Elizabeth II. It was a ...
An essay by Lily Duval from the just-released anthology Otherhood: Essays on being childless, childfree and child adjacent.I was 22 when my friend Alice gave birth in the living room of our pokey Addington flat. She laboured in the blow-up pool for hours. Garish fish swam along the inflated ...
Ella Borrie on the best books about motherhood she’s come across so far. Over the past few years I’ve been drawn to books about motherhood. I’m fascinated by the joys and horrors of becoming a parent. The question of children also feels more pressing than it used to. It’s like ...
Out of gift ideas for mum? You can’t go wrong with a bottle of toilet cleaner and a new squeegee. Emily Writes is the writer and editor of Emily Writes Weekly. This week marks five years since I published a post on The Spinoff about Mother’s Day marketing titled ‘A ...
My husband is posted overseas for 12 months and I’m armed with an expensive, newfangled vibrator. Will I miss him? The Sunday Essay is made possible thanks to the support of Creative New Zealand.A few days after my husband leaves, a new sex toy arrives at the front door. Nestled ...
Jaimie Baird’s new book Here Today Gone Tomorrow is a record of four decades of graffiti and street art in Wellington, told through more than 1,200 photographs. He spoke with Joel MacManus about what inspired the book. How did you first get interested in photographing street art? I remember ...
Editor Madeleine Chapman looks back at a busy week where food of all political leanings dominated. Sometimes you’re just going about your week thinking you’ve got a good handle on what might be coming as far as news topics and then someone (usually a politician) says something so ridiculous that ...
A banner notification alerts me to the fact that I’ve received an Instagram message from @felicity.loves. She always comments on my posts. I shouldn’t have opened the message, but clicked on the notification before rationalising this. OMG! Are you in Wellys? X I debate not replying, but Instagram will inform ...
In Melbourne’s hardscrabble western suburbs where AFL – Aussie rules football – is a state religion, Callum Donaldson has been quietly grafting away, four months into an odyssey that he hopes will take him to another promised land: the NRL. It was a solid 2023 for the softly spoken 20-year-old ...
In a week of cold rain and frost, the climate in courtroom four upstairs at the Invercargill courthouse was simmering with restrained indignation. At times it felt like the famous Mexican standoff scene from Reservoir Dogs, or, as someone watching the proceedings described it, there was so much throwing of ...
Pacific Media Watch Television New Zealand Pacific correspondent Barbara Dreaver has been made an Officer of the New Zealand Order of Merit for services to investigative journalism and Pacific communities in a ceremony at Government House, reports 1News. She has been the Pacific correspondent for 1News since 2002, breaking many ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Michelle Grattan, Professorial Fellow, University of Canberra Tuesday’s budget will respond to the deepening public agitation over Australia’s housing shortages by pouring new money into crisis accommodation for women and children, social housing and infrastructure. A specially-convened national cabinet late Friday ticked ...
By Kaneta Naimatu in Suva Journalists in the Pacific region play an important role as the “eyes and ears on the ground” when it comes to reporting the climate crisis, says the European Union’s Pacific Ambassador Barbara Plinkert. Speaking at The University of the South Pacific (USP) on World Press ...
Aldora Itunu is back in the Black Ferns squad after a three-year absence. The last of her 24 internationals was an underwhelming loss to France (7-29) in Castres to conclude the disastrous 2021 Northern Tour. The powerhouse prop won a Rugby World Cup in 2017 and thought she was done. ...
The fight to control major transport policy and projects in Auckland has burst into the open again, with councillors rejecting Mayor Wayne Brown’s latest attempt to steer things more under his influence. Councillors from the left and right broke ranks on the mayor’s bid to control Auckland Transport more directly ...
Exhausted by the general election campaign, horrified by the twilight zone of coalition negotiations, distracted by the silly season and waiting for the honeymoon to begin, Raw Politics has been in hibernation since October. From today, we’re back. Our weekly political video show and podcast returns for ...
By Patrick Decloitre, RNZ Pacific correspondent French Pacific desk Authorities in the small town of Boulouparis have commemorated Armistice Day on May 8 with a new memorial honouring New Zealand soldiers who were stationed in New Caledonia during World War II. The ceremony took place in the township on the ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Sara Dehm, Senior lecturer, international migration and refugee law, University of Technology Sydney The High Court unanimously ruled today that the Australian government can keep asylum seekers in immigration detention indefinitely in cases where they do not “voluntarily” cooperate with their own ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Kim Munro, Lecturer, Creative Industries and Digital Media, University of South Australia Twenty-four hours after the release of Macklemore’s pro-Palestine protest song Hind’s Hall on social media on May 7, the video had already notched up over 24 million views. In ...
Failing to anticipate the complexity of the consenting system is being cited as the the current builder's shortcomings, an Infrastructure Commission review says. ...
Failing to anticipate the complexity of the consenting system is being cited as the the current builder's shortcomings, an Infrastructure Commission review says. ...
350 Aotearoa is calling the Environment Select Committee’s decision to allow oral submissions from just 40% of individual, unique submitters who asked to speak to the committee ‘a disgraceful blight to democracy’. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By James Helal, Assistant Dean (Sustainability), The University of Melbourne Dubai skylineAleksandarPasaric/Pexels Since ancient times, people have built structures that reach for the skies – from the steep spires of medieval towers to the grand domes of ancient cathedrals and mosques. Today ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Edward Musole, PhD Law Student, University of New England Girts Ragelis/ShutterstockRecent trends show Australians are increasingly buying wearables such as smartwatches and fitness trackers. These electronics track our body movements or vital signs to provide data throughout the day, with ...
Papua New Guinea experienced a significant earthquake on 24 March in East Sepik and there has also been recent flooding there and in surrounding provinces. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Yousuf Mohammed, Dermatology researcher, The University of Queensland Maridav/Shutterstock You wake up, stagger to the bathroom and gaze into the mirror. No, you’re not imagining it. You’ve developed face wrinkles overnight. They’re sleep wrinkles. Sleep wrinkles are temporary. But as your ...
The Environment Select Committee has just announced that 60 percent of individuals who asked to speak at the hearings will not be heard. This equates to almost 700 people who made individual submissions and more than 1000 more who made a form submission. ...
The Royal New Zealand Ballet is performing Swan Lake around the country. What kind of dream does the ballet sell?Before going to see the Royal New Zealand Ballet perform Swan Lake, I had about as much familiarity with the plot of this ballet as could be expected from having ...
A new poem by Auckland poet Eamonn Tee. High Tide at Local Maxima It is only going to get worse. The streams will be narrow and fickle. The week will bend and buckle like a pot-bellied waist. You will make it to the weekend with one ...
The New Zealand entrepreneur behind beauty business Ethique is gearing up to launch a new eco-venture. This is an excerpt from our weekly environmental newsletter Future Proof. Sign up here. Our thirst for a tasty bevvy is insatiable, but it comes with a hefty plastic price for the planet: 580 billion ...
The only published and available best-selling indie book chart in New Zealand is the top 10 sales list recorded every week at Unity Books’ stores in High St, Auckland, and Willis St, Wellington.AUCKLAND1 James by Percival Everett (Mantle, $38) A retelling of The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn from ...
By Kamna Kumar in Suva Pacific Islands Forum Secretary-General Henry Puna stressed the importance of media freedom and its link to the climate and environmental crisis at the 2024 World Press Freedom Day event organised by the University of the South Pacific’s journalism programme. Under the theme “A Planet for ...
Tara Ward previews a new local TV series offering alternative visions of motherhood. This is an excerpt from our weekly pop culture newsletter Rec Room. Sign up here. A woman is clambering up the side of her two-story house, clinging desperately to a drainpipe. Nearby, her child is perched on the ...
Local Government New Zealand (LGNZ) is supportive of the cross-party approach to climate adaptation announced by the Minister of Climate Change today. ...
The Sustainable Business Council (SBC) and Climate Leaders Coalition (CLC) welcome today’s announcement from Government around a bipartisan inquiry into an enduring climate adaptation framework for New Zealand. ...
The Free Speech Union welcomes the decision by the Department of Internal Affairs, and Minister Brooke Van Velden, to abandon proposals to further regulate online speech. ...
Its new building in Wellington will not be nearly big enough for all its records, and it has also run out of money to build its new storage facility in Levin. ...
BusinessNZ is congratulating the Minister of Climate Change for his work in achieving cross-party consensus for a way forward on climate adaptation. ...
Recent research reveals the repeal of smokefree measures is not only bad for our health, but also the economy. The Government has repealed various smokefree measures to ensure it keeps collecting $1.2 billion a year in tobacco taxes, in order to pay for tax cuts already being delivered to ...
The club’s surprisingly good season is built on the desire to prove a random A-League YouTuber wrong… and a few other factors.“There’s no way that Wellington Phoenix play finals this year. I can’t see it happening at all.” Those are the words of Lachlan Raeside, an Australian football content ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By César Albarrán-Torres, Senior Lecturer, Department of Media and Communication, Swinburne University of Technology Apple TV+ As one of billions of bilingual individuals in the world, it disappoints me when a film or TV show with characters of a non-English-speaking background is ...
The under-utilised course is a waste of space, and with a little political will, it could be turned into something better. For the duration of her stay in Wellington, my long-suffering cousin listened to me rant about golf courses. They’re bad for the environment: water intensive and pesticide heavy. They ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Leah Ruppanner, Professor of Sociology and Founding Director of The Future of Work Lab, Podcast at MissPerceived, The University of Melbourne Shutterstock A recent report from the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention shows US fertility rates dropped 2% in ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Amy Corderoy, Medical doctor and PhD candidate studying involuntary psychiatric treatment, School of Psychiatry, UNSW Sydney shop_py/Shutterstock Picture two people, both suffering from a serious mental illness requiring hospital admission. One was born in Australia, the other in Asia. Hopefully, ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Sarah Treby, Postdoctoral Research Fellow, RMIT University P.j.Hickox, Shutterstock Peatlands store more carbon per square metre than any other ecosystem on Earth. These waterlogged, mossy bogs beat even dense rainforests for their ability to act as carbon reservoirs. Under the ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By John Goss, Adjunct Associate Professor, Health Research Institute, University of Canberra Government spending on health has been growing so rapidly that a decade ago the then health minister Peter Dutton called it “unmanageable” and “unsustainable”. Health spending grew in real terms by ...
New Zealand's largest electricity distributor is warning the country to hurry up with controls around charging electric vehicles or face unnecessary bills running into the billions. ...
New Zealanders have been asked to conserve energy this morning to combat a possible electricity shortfall, writes Stewart Sowman-Lund in this extract from The Bulletin. To receive The Bulletin in full each weekday, sign up here. A call to conserve power New Zealand is facing a possible electricity shortfall, with people up ...
Writer Rebecca K Reilly breaks down the national book awards. What are the Ockhams?The Ockham New Zealand Book Awards are our annual national awards for books published for adults, and have existed in this form since 2016. There are four categories: Fiction, Poetry, General Non-fiction and Illustrated Non-fiction. There ...
When the New National Party (NNP) undresses itself in private, it is the Real National Party (RNP), the same as it was when it put on its latest NNP clothes.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/kahu/rob-campbell-theres-a-desperate-hunt-on-for-the-mythical-nnp/A74EKBZFDNB27NKFGG5XG4YO2A/
That is a very good take from Mr Campbell..
It's a companion piece to the atlas post…
The Labour Government was criticised widely for "selling" its programmes poorly, especially 3 Waters.
""We're very worried that they seem to think there's something that needs to be changed. And we're not seeing what they're trying to fix at this stage. We don't understand why they need to do this," he said."
This though, from NZEI Te Riu Roa president Mark Potter, is recent and was said in response to this NACTNZF Government's planned changes to the sex education curriculum.
I guess the same people who lambasted Labour for the poor sales job, will be clamouring to decry the present Governments poor communications.
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/506348/government-accused-of-conspiracy-thinking-in-changes-to-sex-ed
My guess is that this is largely due to the No Debate stance around gender identity ideology. That's why we don't know what is going on, and it's why it's ended up playing out on social media among people that are often conservative, reactionary, or have abandoned the left and a committment to progressive values.
My guess is based on watching exactly this dynamic play out in the UK and the US as well as other countries. GII (gender identity ideology) was rolled out in schools without consultation, and people who tried to ask questions about it were called bigots and shut down. That of course shut up the progressives who had concerns, because ostracisation via accusations of bigotry is a very strong tool among left liberals. The right, centrists and apolitical people care nearly as much and the result is that they are now in charge of the narrative, and in places like NZ that have a RW government and No Debate, they are in charge of policy and legislation now too.
One of the things that is happening is that the right get to redefine not just GII but all of sex and sexuality education, and of course they're going to do that conservatively, because that is their values.
This is an utter failure by the left. We cannot in any way complain about NACTF not being forthcoming with information, when the left has been running No Debate and ostracisation for years.
There is some hope. In the UK, despite a Tory government there is also a strong grassroots gender critical feminist movement (GCF). Those women and men as allies span the whole spectrum of society from MPs and academics to mums and working people, who are socially liberal and who generally support trans people, but want limits on things like women's spaces and transitioning of children.
So there is a tempering there of the push from the right. This is what should be happening in NZ. In the UK women and men lost jobs and careers over this, but stood up anyway. Fewer have done that in NZ, and we don't have the same kind of grassroots activism culture, so it's harder. It's leaving the power with the more conservative and reactionary people.
The best thing the left could do right now is stop ostracising GCFs, and allow an open and wide debate about the issues that matter to people. There is no way to win progressive gains if we don't bring people along, and there is no way to win a war that seeks to remove the rights of women and children. We're in a stalemate. I don't expect the left do this, I expect them to carry on with the own goals until either NACTF fall apart or we are thrown into the next major crisis (climate, economic, oil).
This is the worst possible time for the left to be failing to get to grips with the culture wars, but I think the base cause is the same as the crises, neoliberal capitalism and fear.
Thanks for the full names, Weka.
But more importantly thank you for making me aware of the No Debate stance. I had sensed this approach but not been able to understand or articulate it.
I felt it some years back when I realised that there had been a major shift in trans rights in particular and that many considered there now to be a default setting that couldn't be questioned.
I wondered where the hell it had come from and if I had been asleep because I didn't recall any wide societal discussion or debate. It was like someone had lifted the arm on record player and we'd skipped a track on an LP.
And like Dorothy said, we weren't in Kansas anymore.
I never felt they sold it poorly they where just up against cashed anti everything national and other assorted conservatives.
the whole centralise away from the provinces thing was always going to play badly. That they definitely didn't handle well.
I think this is an over-simplification; they were trying (!) to increase (!) local/community input & oversight and to create the benefits of a centrally coordinated network with economics of scale. They failed, obviously, partly because they lost control of the narrative quite early on. The rest is history. IMO.
Norman Finkelstein: "Who do you attack when you target a hospital? You're destroying the lame, the nearly dead, the sick and the newborn."
The days of "No Debate" are over.
"The Tribunal Panel Judge Nicolle sitting with Non-Legal Members Ms Sandler and Ms Breslin found that both Ms Meade’s regulator and her employer had subjected her to harassment related to her gender-critical belief when SWE threatened her with fitness to practise proceedings and sanctioned her for misconduct, and then WCC suspended her on charges of gross misconduct before issuing a final written warning. By the time the case was heard, both the regulator’s sanction and the employer’s warning had been withdrawn, but Ms Meade had been suspended from work for a year and bullied into silence on the subject of proposed reforms of the Gender Recognition Act, the importance of safe single-sex spaces for women and related subjects.
This is a landmark decision. It is the first time a Regulator and an Employer have together been found to have been liable for discrimination relating to gender critical beliefs".
https://www.colekhan.co.uk/news/uvzuy6kcrtb5lwg59pxbs44tqbeuj2
excellent. Do you know if the actions by the regulator and employer predate the final Forstater judgement?
“Did the actions of the regulator and employer predate the final Forstater judgment?”
No, it didn't.
UK Guardian 21 June 2021
Maya Forstater: her gender-critical views of a researcher who lost her job at a thinktank after tweeting that transgender women could not change their biological sex are a protected philosophical belief under the Equality Act, a judge-led panel has ruled.
JUDGMENT OF 8TH JANUARY 2024
WIN IN THE EMPLOYMENT TRIBUNAL – MS R MEADE V WESTMINSTER CITY COUNCIL AND SOCIAL WORK ENGLAND
e.g.
As against her employer, WCC:
3. The on-going refusal to lift the Claimant’s suspension in August and September 2021, in January 2022 and in February 2022 or at any time thereafter and despite requests from the Claimant to do so;
4. An investigation report which was hostile in tone and content, served on the Claimant on 6 December 2021;
As against her Regulator, SWE:
2. Being sanctioned by SWE’s Case Examiners on 8 July 2021;
3. The failure of SWE to set aside the Case Managers’ decision in September 2021 when presented with the evidence in support of the Claimant’s application for a review;
ODT, 10 Jan 2024: "High levels of toxic algae found in Waihopai river".
I wonder if Tourism NZ will feature that news on its website.
Whitebaiters net the Waihopai. Dog owners walk their pets along its banks.
kids swim in the Waihopai (or at least used to).
"[The American family] picnic on exquisitely packaged food from a portable icebox by a polluted stream … they may reflect vaguely on the curious unevenness of their blessings."
JK Galbraith
We seem to be headed the same way, given our leaders' desire to worship at the shrine of the economy. Where will your grandchildren fish, swim or paddle a canoe?
Hurrah!
"Australian miner sees few barriers to exploiting $8b Central Otago gold find"
"It also told investors that it had a clear pathway to obtaining a mining permit, advising them that a “new pro-mining government” had been place in New Zealand since November."
https://www.thepost.co.nz/business/350143245/australian-miner-sees-few-barriers-exploiting-8b-central-otago-gold-find
They will be able to ship the gold from Tarras International Airport….Tarras is going off.
are you in favour of the airport beside the Clutha?
Nope…I'm against Tarras airport on climate change grounds….but I predict it will happen because AirNZ and Qantas want it.
Once Tarras opens Queenstown airport will no longer be viable and will close.
I predict activists will stop it happening. Higher confidence than usual because of the people with money who stopped the Wanaka Airport expansion and the people that live in the area being against it also probably having money. That combined with a very strong climate case that will bring out activists. Also, it's a rallying point.
(I don't really predict the outcome because I hate making predictions, but I do think there will be substantial resistance).
Many people, including myself, fought against any jets at Wanaka airport because the flight path was right over town and at low altitude.
One of the flight paths for Tarras airport will take it over Hawea and Hawea Flat but at such a height that the sound will be mitigated-it is 29km from Tarras Airport to Hawea Flat, further to Hawea..
Many people in Queenstown/Frankton want that airport closed because of plane noise which is certain to increase in the future. It is also recognised as a dangerous airport to land/take off and the runway is too short to permit wide body planes-Tarras will cope with wide body planes.
The land under Queenstown airport is probably worth $1.5 billion and is 75% community owned so closing the airport would give the QLDC a major windfall. The land under the airport will be able to be developed in a manner that provides for the future…university…hospitals….schools…council offices….affordable housing … etc etc.
Some business people will scream about losing Queenstown airport but many in the population will be happy to see it go.
oh yeah, I'm aware that some in Queenstown are keen. But they need to sort out their own problems, not pass them on to other people/places.
what does that mean? Will they hear the planes or not?
There are lots of people in Central Otago, even in Queenstown, who think there should be limits on growth. For obvious reasons. You'd think Queenstown of all places would get that.
To the workshops of those great French jewellers …
… Tarras to Paris here we come!
The miners spruiking this scheme sound very optimistic. The regional council is no doubt all for it and will probably keep environmental restrictions to a minimum if the promoters promise to employ a few locals as navvies.
But where will they put the mine tailings and other refuse? Te Aroha residents will tell you what can go wrong (taxpayers had to foot a $15 million cleanup bill for the Tui mine because the miner went bust and had paid no bond).
Google "Lessons to be learnt from toxic legacy", Waikato Times, 2013.
Some summertime weirdness.
The story till now. A coalition policy of removal and replacement of the gender, sexuality, and relationship-based education guidelines (guidelines were introduced in 2020 by then-associate education minister Tracey Martin, who was a New Zealand First MP).
Last year
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/503418/axing-sexuality-relationship-education-guidelines-would-be-huge-mistake-warns-co-writer
This year
So far clear enough.
He is replying to this from Luxon last year
The last bit is surprising as withdrawing children is something parents can do now
https://www.1news.co.nz/2024/01/10/sex-education-govt-accused-of-conspiracy-based-thinking/
This is where it gets to the summertime wierdness
That is, the government did not legislate changes in the 100 day plan and so the year would go ahead with existing policy.
The urgency is related to development a replacement for 2025.
Someone else can do a post on developing a replacement as per the criticism of existing policy from Emeritus professor Sue Middleton
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/503418/axing-sexuality-relationship-education-guidelines-would-be-huge-mistake-warns-co-writer
I'm not sure what is weird there. This was wholly predictable. I put a comment above under Robert's post about the Gender Critical aspect being central to everything in that. The left gave the right and open door to attack all sex/sexuality education.
Let's just hope there are some in NACTF who aren't completely insane as well and we end up with a more socially conservative but still liberal curriculum rather than something ultra right. I don't know the MPs well enough to know what is most likely.
Also, no fucking point in developing something in the community if No Debate is being run.
Raising the issue of needing more information while MP's (Minister and Cabinet) are at the beach and doing so as per the formation of a replacement policy for 2025.
The only immediate issue would be impact on the curriculum for 2024 if there was a withdrawal of the guidelines before there was a replacement.
PS Where changes are top down, the consultation is then between schools and parents.
sorry, still not following. Who raised the issue of needing more information? (apart from when it was raised last year).
Last year
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/503418/axing-sexuality-relationship-education-guidelines-would-be-huge-mistake-warns-co-writer
This year
https://www.1news.co.nz/2024/01/10/sex-education-govt-accused-of-conspiracy-based-thinking/
is Potter politicking?
He's back at work, others are not.
A concern as to what happens if the 2021-2023 teacher practice is impacted by withdrawal of the guidelines this year (and if so, when), before they are replaced (not possible for 2024).
What do you define as a "more socially conservative but still liberal curriculum"?
teaching the basics of biological sex, social aspects of sex, and sexuality, and not teaching children that it's possible and desirable to change sex would be a start.
a hard core RW conservative position would teach abstinence to teens as an example of illiberal conservatism. An out of control neoliberal position would prioritise gender identity over biological sex, and lie to children that bio sex can be changed and that this is a good thing (eg disabling surgeries and hormones).
I'm arguing what should be in the curriculum here. I'm pointing to a middle ground that might stop this being a complete disaster while the gender/sex conflict is being resolved.
"teaching the basics of biological sex…" – biology class, surely?
"… social aspects of sex…" who will dictate what those are? Old folks? Religious folks? The community?
"…and sexuality…" ummm…isn't that in place already?
2. just use the curriculum basics we have already
3. yes. Did you miss the point of my comment?
When did/will Kiwi teachers start "teaching children that it's possible and desirable to change sex"?
Teaching about the feminine-to-masculine spectrum of human identity and behaviours, and that some aspects of identity are changeable and/or not (pre-)determined by (immutable) biological sex, is OK, imho. My initial thinking was firmly binary, but posts and comments on TS have changed that.
Imho, most trans identities are natural – Kiwi society determines what are acceptable trans (and non-trans) behaviours, and that will continue to evolve.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminist_views_on_transgender_topics#Oceania
https://genderequal.nz/what-we-want/
https://www.hrc.org/resources/sexual-orientation-and-gender-identity-terminology-and-definitions
there have always been gender non-conforming people, throughout time and place.
Gender Identity ideology is new.
Lots of gender critical feminists are gender non-conforming.
What is the feminine to masculine spectrum of human identity and behaviours? Is it based on gender stereotypes and gender roles? Are those roles meaningful outside of gender stereotypes?
One of the things that happens is some trans women believe that being a woman is having big breasts and wearing make up and such. Do you think that is anything to with being a woman?
Human societies are always generating new ideas. Time will tell whether the concept/ideology of gender identity becomes firmly established.
Not sure if this addresses your first question, but consider the idea that a few people exhibit a preponderance of exaggerated behaviours (stereo)typically associated with females (so represent a 'hyperfeminine' identity), a few people exhibit a preponderance of exaggerated behaviours (stereo)typically associated with males (so represent a 'hypermasculine' identity), and most of us exhibit a mix of less exaggerated feminine and masculine behaviours.
For example, "males on average are biologically predisposed to systemise, to analyse, and to be more forgetful of others, while females on average are innately designed to empathise, to communicate, and to care for others",
but "you cannot deduce the psychological characteristics of any person [just] by knowing their sex."
Imho, females who are naturally inclined to exhibit (some) typically masculine behaviours, and males who are naturally inclined to exhibit (some) typically feminine behaviours, can be examples of societal strength in diversity. Potentially incongruent combinations (of feminine or masculine identity/behaviour, and immutable biological sex) are personal, and best resolved (or not) on an individual basis – live and let live.
I don't; some people do. This televised statement has stuck in my mind much longer that I would have wished (over 20 years):
Society is continuously (re)constructed by of all kinds of women and men.
https://argumentswithfriends.substack.com/p/what-hutt-valley-high-school-is-teaching
don't worry, it's bonkers and it's hard to believe. This is part of how No Debate has been so damaging. We didn't get to talk about this stuff, and now it's there and no-one can quite believe it.
I've just read this conversation and it confirms my suspicion Tinetti was being disingenuous in her concerns.
Y'all above have been discussing the gender aspect of the
indoctrinationeducation guidelines.She put the spotlight on consent issues, which to the best of my knowledge, almost all of us can get to a general consensus on.
When it came to gender issues, like lots of folk who don't have a strong argument, she starts littering her korero with "conspiracy".
Blissfully unaware of the controversy around gender, so indoctrinated by ideology, she had to look up 'woke gender curriculum'.
Rest assured weka, being a GCF, you have merely been duped by a "imported culture war". So patronising, so condescending, and oddly familiar to those who found themselves on the wrong side of the state's Covid reaction.
I see the similarities with the pandemic resistors too, despite not agreeing with them on on some significant points. The condescension is just stupid.
I supported the idea of 3 Waters because it likely contained a policy of national water supply which frees the councils from the responsibility of managing their water supply so they can do more with managing infrastructure that the government do not concern itself with. As far as I'm concerned, the more nationalised/nationally shared resources we can get, we get better councils as a result.
We can get the councils to focus far more on local infrastructure instead of having to concern themselves with water maintenance and management if we can get around to nationalising water and electricity along with railways and if possible healthcare.
God, that could mean better cities! Better towns! More physically & sensorally accessible cities and towns in Aotearoa/NZ! 😀
All the draft Council budgets should come out for public consultation at the end of March.
So March through to June will be the window we have to show the relationship between water availability, water quality, water price, water ownership, and what our councils should do.
It's all on them now and it's what they all begged for.
En Marche.
Good to know… 😏
I'll look at my locality and see what I can do in it.
I encourage you all to do it too. 🙂
Using the advertising approach of calling it "3 waters" was a mistake I think. Should have just called it "water infrastructure" or "drinking water, storm water and sewage services"
The disingenuous would have found "STOP water infrastructure!" or "STOP drinking water, storm water and sewage services!" slogans less useful.
Wot uncooked said..
Three waters sounds like a new mineral water drink…
Meaningless pap..
3 Waters is an elegant and descriptive title.
It was polluted by the Right.
True, it was the right that took advantage. But no need to make it easier for them (and yes, they would have come up with some vapid attack slogan regardless, I suppose)
If we can accept that shaman from all manner of cultures are able to shape-shift and become birds, panthers, lizards etc, then it must be that a male shaman could become a woman, yes?
it's the difference between imaginative and material reality. We can be shamans, but shamans still exist within the laws of nature. Shamans don't become panthers in material reality ie no-one can independently observe them as a panther. The problem isn't with material reality, it's that the west believes that material reality is god and that imaginative reality is either stupid or ok but needs to be put in its place. Sane cultures do both/and.
The gender/sex fight is over the definition of 'woman'. Many people believe that women = biologically female. It's simply not possible for humans to change from one biological sex to the other (there are some animals and plants that can, but not humans).
Other people believe that 'woman' is a feeling. So if a man feels like they are a woman, they can be one literally. This is obviously a nonsense in relation to biological reality, so the issue becomes should the needs of gender non-conforming men take priority over the rights and reality of women? And how should society manage that in terms of law, policy, resources etc.
My own view is that men as a class need to do the mahi of making it acceptable for men to be gender non-conforming so that they don't have to try and colonise women's culture. And support women to have our own politics, thanks.
So, we've paddled in the shallow end of indigenous cultures, such as those who have lived in Australia for tens of thousands of years, but we haven't really given ourselves over to the deeper parts of those cultures.
Goethe encourages deep-observation of plants in order to become the plant.
Holding tight the supremacy of material over spiritual is where we in the Western World are failing, is it not so?
Ursula LeGuin had much to say about this and she wasn't, I believe, joking 🙂
Yes, but we don't become a plant in material reality, right? What we do is develop a relational connection with the plant that shifts our consciousness. All very good.
What's not so good is trying to remedy the western overemphasis on material reality with pseudo-spirituality. I'm not being pejorative there, GII isn't a spirituality, but it has aspects of religion that are problematic as a belief system but very problematic when adopted as societal rules.
Here's one of the consequences of allowing dogmatic beliefs to override material reality,
https://twitter.com/FreyaManslayer/status/1744524603257422208
you can click through the quote tweets to see other examples.
What I want to know is why the left is sanctioning an ideology into law, policy and society that enables this.
Le Guin did have some things to say about child abuse. She centred Therru in the later Earthsea books for really good reasons.
"Yes, but we don't become a plant in material reality, right?"
Wrong, but we'll need to explore the true meaning of "become" 🙂
Māori, I'm told, by some Māori, believe their maunga tapu is IN FACT their ancestor/gggggggggrandfather/mother.
Are we to dismiss that claim as "imagination"?
why would you put imagination in quotation marks? Doesn't that diminish the experience of understanding the land as our ancestor? If we understand imagination as being as important as material reality, there's no problem with understanding that some people experience the land as ancestor, is there?
Besides, science shows us that humans and plants share ancestry, so it's not too much of a stretch of the… imagination.
In what way do you believe that humans can become a plant in material reality?
Because imagination has a micro and/plus a macro meaning. Most use its micro form – I wanted to draw attention to the need for thinking more deeply about the word.
What do you mean by "material reality" (quoting from your comment.
"Some people" (again), scoff at the idea that a mountain could be anyone's great etc. grandfather, (in reality).
Who is right?
Are you suggesting multiple realities?
If so, could their not be a reality where men can be women, if their imagination allows it?
What are the micro and macro meanings of the word imagination?
this is a great question, I will answer in a different comment.
What do you mean by reality there?
I thought I already answered this. In physical reality, no, it's just not possible. Men can pretend to women in physical reality but that's not the same thing.
If men can be women, then there is no such thing as biological reality, which is obviously nonsense.
If you mean can men be women in the imaginal realm, the problem here, in this context, is that we are now neck deep in an ideology that has powerfully influenced law, policy and society as if it were physical reality. This is both a lie, and it impacts on women and children. Women in particular have been told to shut the fuck up. We won't.
It's not possible to have the conversation about the imaginal realm until the people who want men to imagine themselves women stop trying to remove women's rights. Maslow's hierarchy of needs probably comes in at this point. Absolutely no way will support the progress of an ideology that comes at the expense of a 12 year old girl being sexually assaulted. It would be corrupt to do so.
I'm less interested in determining who is right, than I am in exploring the chasm between literal thinkers, imaginative thinkers, and those of us that can think in both at the same time. I'd call it decolonisation of the western mind but that would create another set of communication problems 😉
"What are the micro and macro meanings of the word imagination?"
"That's just your imagination" as opposed to, "Imagination is the most powerful tool humans possess".
I think your views on your pet issue are limiting your … imagination 🙂
You say, "pretend", I say, "be".
We can pretend the mountain is our ancestor, or it can be.
how do you think I'm using the word imagination? Because I've been arguing to not diminish it as 'just imagination'.
Imagination is indeed an very powerful tool. All the more reason to not be in denial of material reality while using it. That's dangerous.
You haven't said how, but let me guess. You think that my position that men cannot become women is a limit of my imagination. I can imagine people imagining themselves as a panther, but if some dude or chick from Timaru was setting themselves up as a shaman who had a panther ally and was running workshops based on ripping off natives, at a $1000 a pop, I'd have some political critiques about that too. Both/and.
sounds to me like you want to ignore material reality, the 12 year old girl who was sexually assaulted, and what women want. That's disappointing.
I didn't say anything about pretending to be a mountain. I don't see mana whenua relationship with their maunga in that way at all, so I'm asking you now to take a step back and consider that you are missing important aspects of what I am saying here.
weka; you're freaking me out!
I took some time to plant a dozen Japanese quinces and mull over something that's disturbing me and now, if I may…
…you wrote, "…sounds to me like you want to ignore material reality, the 12 year old girl who was sexually assaulted, and what women want. That's disappointing…."
Wtf???
"Material reality" – the topic of our discussion, and those examples you gave to show what specifically I am ignoring, seem way out of kilter to me. It's a "what about" set-up, isn't it? I made no mention of either/any of those examples, yet you've sheeted them to me and tarred me with the, "you haven't denounced" brush. This is what happened over the assaults during the Posie Parker protest; supporters of your position, your sisters in arms, charged me (and others) with failing to denounce actions that they found abhorrent. Is this the standard for putting forward a view (in this case on the nature of reality and the role of the observer) – a declaration of position on matters chosen by "your crew"?
It seems very strange indeed, to me. Perhaps there are others who baulked at this behaviour, I can't know.
Sorry to be freaking you out. Let me reread the thread and get my bearings on what has happened and come back to you and see if we can reconnect the conversation in a better way.
Okay, thanks, no rush.
Material reality in the gender/sex context refers to the stuff of the universe that exists and can be observed and interacted with but is fundamentally independent of human thought.
For instance, humans as a species reproduce via a sexual binary (female eggs, male sperm). There is no variant on that, it's an aspect of material reality that cannot be changed by human imagination. The only way to get a new human is by combining the stuff of the universe that is in the egg and in the sperm.
Even if we develop technologies that take us out of nature/evolution eg cloning humans, that still has to happen using the materials and rules of material reality. Our thinking might conceive of how to do that, but it still gets done with physical stuff.
I guess it's theoretically possible that at some point in the future, humans might be able to create a third sex. We're not even close to being able to think about how to that in real life, let alone grapple with the ethical issues.
So when people engage with plants, that exists in material reality, but they engage via non-material means… although in the case of Goethe, it's both/and, right? so let's say they engage with the plant via material and non-material realms, the person doing the engaging still has the physical body they were born with. That body doesn't acquire the capacity for photosynthesis for instance. Nor does she/he have physical roots that are in relationship with soil microbia.
So whatever else is going on with the process and experience, we can definitively say that the person doesn't not become a plant materially.
The reason this matters (haha) is that material reality is a really great thing! We do ourselves and the rest of nature a great disservice to be in denial of it. The denial of material reality is driving the great crises of the world. The disconnect from our innate spiritual relationship with nature is that too. But they're the same thing, not because they are the same thing, but because both exist as each and as one.
Sorry to go all esoteric there, but what I see happening often is people realising the west has lost the plot (mind/body split etc) and then they eschew material reality because Descartes said some stupid shit about it a while back. Why are we letting that unfortunate part of history drive our thinking?
(it's often observed the similarities between the great religions that sought to transcend the body, and GII which seeks likewise. Both hate women in our fantastically female and natural bodies).
"Material reality in the gender/sex context refers to the stuff of the universe that exists and can be observed and interacted with but is fundamentally independent of human thought."
Material reality must cover all contexts, surely?
In any case, what reality can you describe that is fundamentally different from human thought?
If a tree falls in a forest…"
not sure what you mean by cover, but I chose to explain in that particular context because that's how the conversation started (and because I’ve read some excellent philosophical discussions about material reality arising from the sex/gender conflict). We can talk about material reality in lots of contexts, is that what you mean?
everything that is not human exists in a reality that is independent from human thought. We can think about all the things, but when we are not thinking about them they still exist. I don't have to describe it, it just is.
I'm pretty sure my cat is either hunting rabbits or sleeping it off right now (or maybe doing some other cat thing), but whether I am aware of that or not, he's still out there doing it materially.
Glad you brought up cats 🙂
Mr Schrödinger had one.
"The prevailing theory, called the Copenhagen interpretation, says that a quantum system remains in superposition until it interacts with, or is observed by, the external world."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schrödinger%27s_cat#:~:text=In%20Schrödinger%27s%20original%20formulation%2C%20a,poison%2C%20which%20kills%20the%20cat.
Schrodinger was making the point that the system described by quantum mechanics appeared ridiculus. The description produced is a distribution of probabilities for what will be observed. But this discussion makes the assumption that there is a reality which is exactly what is then observed in any experiment. The key insight should be that there is some missing part from quantum mechanics which if added allowed the exact outcomes to be found. Maybe this is related to fully integrating gravity into quantum mechanics. Its also possible that the resolution of measurement is too great a barrier to such experiments.
You've nailed it, Nic!
The basic product of philosophy (including logic and math) doesnt have to be true or observable. Thats just a basic fact of (human) thought. So it's a further demand of science that any models rejected by experiment should also be discarded. The question here seems to be should politics be expected to be conducted on a scientific understanding of society? Maybe in future we could prioratise the political issues of which ever fictional character appears in the ACT parties political advertising campaign?
Had to read that one several times 🙂
Could it be that one person’s myth is another person’s religion or reality?
For sure. Myth, religion and reality are each/all story, especially for us/we humans.I've seen/worked with, humans who can understand the story at all – it's not a pretty sight. Story is, of course, entirely manipulable, hence we can find ourselves/are in the thrall of powerful storytellers.
"Fantasy"writers such as Le Guin and Tolkien, when speaking/writing from their deepest selves, do not say myth is "not reality", or magic is "fantasy".
For the truth of the matter 🙂 Read T.H. White's "The Sword in the Stone" and how Merlin teaches young Arthur the true nature of reality.
You can "believe" anything you chose to believe. Fortunately, these days you cannot require other people to believe the same things. Mystical stuff belongs with mystical stuff. It is not biological reality.
Why the quotation marks around the first "believe" in your reply, Visubversa?
Human sex as binary can be quantified and verified.
Anything that says otherwise – without any measurable or testable criteria, is an article of faith. Thus 'belief'.
Science, eh!
It's cut and dried, this and never that.
All else is flim-flam.
See you around. I'm taking another break.
I need to plan stuff.
Thanks for your thoughtful post in the Atlas Smirked thread about where to from here. I'm still thinking about what that means for me where I am.
Kia kaha
One in a hundred thousand boasts 2023
Dead cat bounce says planet earth
https://www.climate.gov/media/15006
https://www.climate.gov/sites/default/files/graph-from-scott-wing-620px.png.
https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/world/2024/01/scientists-confirm-2023-was-world-s-hottest-year-on-record.html
They must be reading TS
https://www.labour.org.nz/news-labour_calls_on_govt_to_join_case_against_israel
A big shoutout to Mels Barton and Greg Presland, Forest and Bird Waitakere, Te Kawerau A Maki and all the good folk of Waima in Titirangi Auckland for the consent conditions that forced Watercare to work so hard for their new pump station.
Hard fought and a great focus for civic environmental activism over the last 5 years,
https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/BU2401/S00020/watercare-receives-long-awaited-consent-for-huia-water-treatment-plant-replacement.htm
It will supply water to approximately 300,000 Aucklanders, about 20 per cent of Auckland’s water.
In particular top score to the neighbourhood team for squeezing out $8.25 out of Waitakere to put to local biodoversity and conservation work. Looking forward to really sound preparation for construction starting 2027.
how about we just say that there is no absolute reality….reality being just a grey matter construct anyway.
The faux news brain worm at work.
@Acyn
Right now, Fox is suggesting that Taylor Swift is a psyop because she posted a link to register voters.
https://twitter.com/Acyn/status/1744897719578055029
The Post-UMD poll finds 39 percent of Americans who say Fox News is their primary news source believe the FBI organized and encouraged the Jan. 6 attack, compared with 16 percent of CNN or MSNBC viewers and 13 percent who get most of their news from ABC, CBS or NBC. The poll finds 44 percent of those who voted for Trump say the FBI instigated the attack.
https://archive.li/y6OBh (wapo)
As we say at work..
... it's me, my, I'm the problem it's me
Golriz?
The woman has MS. Medications used to manage the symptoms of MS are a who's who of brain breakers that can affect moral decision making.
If Gharaman's medication is that severe on her judgement, why is she in Parliament making law? Shaw will need to give her a fair amount of sick leave while the prosecution goes through.
From the ocean to the sea
Scotties clothes shall be free!
So droll!
This from Kiwiblog a couple of hours ago:
Not hard to see where you get your talking points from but you could at least link and attribute material that is not yours.
Also interesting that NZ zionist and noted Islamophobe, David Farrar, made a special post about this to declare it to his followers.
Let us remind ourselves that David Farrar had to introduce gateway moderation to his blog after the Christchurch mass murders…
Considering I got it from the new zealand subreddit page I don't think I'll be linking to kiwiblog
Ok, mate. It's all the same and you still didn't attribute.
It's important to attribute so that members of this forum know where your reckons come from, and that your reckons are not actually your own.
I reckons you can stick your attributes up your forum
[You’re obviously a troll who tries to be funny and belligerently displays the usual lack of honesty and integrity and as such, your comments are piss-poor. You’ve been warned before for trolling. No more warning – Incognito]
Mod note
Noted
"It's important to attribute so that members of this forum know where your reckons come from…"
That's good to hear MB.
Now you will be able to answer the question asked by myself and weka.
https://thestandard.org.nz/daily-review-26-10-2023/#comment-1974357
After all, calling someone you don’t know a “militant, gender denying activist.” is othering and we know you don’t like that.
Don't hold your breath
Years ago, this was online from David Farrar:
It seems to have become 'fomenting.' Whichever it is, it's a great opportunity for posters on that site to start the year flaunting their appalling attitudes.
And for Farrar to play D J Trump: "People tell me that …", reality and fact become established and the invitation to swim in the sewer and ignorance is made and accepted.
Golriz Ghahraman is no indication of us living in a scummy country sad and wretched. You go to Farrar to see that.
The word "happy" is entirely inappropriate for Farrar's pitiful blog, which is (unsurprisingly, considering its proprietor) almost entirely hateful and virulently racist. This writer, i.e. moi, used to hang out there on my occasional periods of exile from The Standard (H/T Lin Prent, weka, Incognito, and Te Reo Putake).
https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-18-04-2019/#comment-1609201
Superiority complex with victimhood tendencies is more common than people realise.
I don't see David Farrar as superior to anyone, and he's certainly not a victim.
I agree with you on both points. Never mind.
My kindest solicitations to you, Mr Incognito.
Some people have made up their minds already.
Shaw stood her down from portfolios not me.
The Green leadership have made the judgement.
You did say the prosecution was going through. That might happen but it hasn't happened yet. Not that a detail like that stops a resident of Wānaka from the declaration.
So, Ad has (not to mention the nonentity R the Goodfellow) found her guilty regardless? Maybe no-one, including herself, was aware of the possible effect on her.
Either something went radically wrong for her, or she is the latest manifestation of DP. Whatever, I feel sympathy for her. She is a very intelligent young woman.
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/506410/green-mp-golriz-ghahraman-stands-aside-from-portfolios-after-being-accused-of-shoplifting
You are the poster child for the Trump defence that all politicians are immune from prosecution.
The Green Party are already in contact with Scotties.
Presumably a statement tomorrow morning.
Bullshit. 🙄
Innocent until proven guilty but if found guilty I hope she gets a conviction and that its the end of her career.
I'm bloody sick of politicians running around acting like the rules don't apply to them, the behaviour of MPs in the last year has been disgusting.
We've had MPs boast about trying to interfere in court matters, lying about getting rid of their shares to cabinet, resisting arrest, a former or current I don't keep track with the torys getting thrown off a plane and not being charged for it and now we have one allegedly shoplifting.
If she's guilty I believe all MPs as representatives of the public should face the harshest available punishment according to the law broken (laws that they write) if they break a law.
She gets paid boat loads and is just a list mp.
I hope it's all a beat up but the public is sick to death of our representatives acting like the laws they write don't apply to them.
It's a high pressure job but noones forcing anyone to do it, individuals who are burnt out can should step down.
Normal people don't have the options or the money or the resources these people do.
Kiri Allen was not charged with resisting arrest. Refusing to accompany is the one applying with driving a car offences (charged with careless driving).
The legal issue is covered in this story – I suspect she will lose given the type of incident and normal practice takes away the relevance of a lawyer etc.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/kiri-allan-car-crash-former-justice-minister-explains-why-shes-pleading-not-guilty-to-car-crash-charges/QVKEJEBHJJCRDEBOWWDY4KDJ7E/
Corey, can you finish this sentence?
Innocent until proven guilty but if found innocent I hope she gets …
Never said she was guilty but it is funny
Ad, I know I said I was taking a break, however, if it's MS, then please leave her alone on that topic.
It's never ever anybody's fault that anybody has a disability and it is not her fault that she has MS and there is a lot of value in having someone with a disability or sickness being in politics and its sphere than if there was nobody in politics with such a background.
We need more people with disabilities and sicknesses to be represented in Aotearoa/NZ politics, not less.
These are perilous times and a lot of lives are on the line. It's only fair that we have political representation regardless of the times we find ourselves in.
That's all.
"… and there is a lot of value in having someone with a disability or sickness being in politics and its sphere than if there was nobody in politics with such a background".
Value lies in comprehensive research, consultation with advocates and appropriate consideration for those with sickness and disabilities.
The idea that representatives are required is flawed. Perspectives, and needs should be represented and that should be done by standard processes.
So, no need for women in politics?
Men who do "comprehensive research, consultation with advocates and appropriate consideration for (women) ", would suffice?
Given the experience of women on here, it is unlikely that many men have the capability of achieving "comprehensive research, consultation with advocates and appropriate consideration ".
However, relying on this to be rectified by including a female representative – who may also fail at the above – is a flawed notion.
The processes should be improved.
nevertheless, if you argue that representation isn't needed, what would an appropriate process look like for say a group making decisions about women where that group was all men.
If those men – actually understood and gave due consideration to the needs of women – and effectively represented and advocated for them, then they are more effective than a group of women who do not.
The fact of being female – doesn't mean you are an effective advocate for women.
Any representative – while they may be exceptional advocates for a particular demographic also have to ensure that all other consitituents are represented as well. ie. a politician concerned about women's health, uses processes that serve specific health needs for men.
I don't think anyone has suggested a group of women who don't understand or give due consideration to the needs of women, so that's the wrong comparison.
The comparison is between qualified women and qualified men, all other things being equal, would a group that included women do better for women than a group of men?
Sure, but that ensuring might be by recoginising the limits of one's own knowledge base and experience and making sure that the relevant experience and knowledge is included via people of the class being affected.
No-one can represent everyone all the time at the level required.
Men will never be as good as women at understand childbirth for instance. Yes, the women representing birthing women should have given birth and be qualified. And that makes them better at the job than men. I'm not talking individual exemptions to the principle here.
"The comparison is between qualified women and qualified men, all other things being equal, would a group that included women do better for women than a group of men?"
If the processes are robust, they should achieve the same.
If you have a definitive answer, then that part of the process should be improved.
You did indicate that you believe there's no need for those most affected by policy to be central to policy delivery, hence my question.
please explain how.
using people with first hand experience is part of the standard processes. It doesn't preclude research, consultation and appropriate consideration, it adds to those things.
Meanwhile, across many sectors, we have seen that consultation with groups by people not of that group but who hold the power, leads to poor policy and outcomes.
In the disability area, an example would be town planning and the push towards cycling/walking and non-car spaces that pays lip service to disability and constantly gets it wrong. That is less likely to happen if people with disabilities were part of the planning process (and I don't mean the odd token person with a disability).
Having a disability in and of itself doesn't qualify, having an otherwise qualified person who also has a disability adds perspectives that are needed.
I'm not suggesting the processes are not flawed. They need to be improved to ensure that consultation, research and appropriate considerations are made. Advocates may be elected as representatives – all good – but should not be required for the processes to be effective.
Unfortunately, there are the usual political and administrative impediments to good representation. This can be addressed, with or without specific representatives.
ok, but you still haven't explained why. Would you mind putting your thinking out in more detail?
I believe I've been pretty clear. Processes should exist, and be in constant review for improvement, that ensures the needs of all people are represented in policies and governance.
This allows full-time advocates to concentrate on those they advocate for, without the additional time costs and burdens that as political representatives they should devote to other groups.
Consultation with such advocates – should definitely be part of a comprehensive and effective process.
I don't think I have anything further to add. Unless you have something specific you wanted to ask.
I have.
Who should design those processes?
They should already exist. It is apparent that if they do – they are inadequate. Have a look at who was consulted regarding policy at Sports NZ that would impact on women and girls in sports:
https://sportnz.org.nz/media/okjhw2n2/summary-of-feedback-final-1.pdf
But if you are happy with inadequate, inefficient and ineffective processes as long as a token representative is in place, that's your call. I have no inclination to spend time attempting to change your mind.
"… inadequate, inefficient and ineffective processes as long as a token representative is in place…"
Is that the case?
@Robert Guyton
"Is that the case?"
We are coming across a familiar occurrence, where you appear to lose sight of the original point of discussion.
https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-10-01-2024/#comment-1984131
You may have a long lifespan ahead of you, but mine is too short to spend further time while I wait for you to regroup and catch up.
Carry on without me. It seems my comments are unnecessary for you to misconstrue what I say anyway.
I am myself a disabled person and I have had some experience in politics and I do not like that you think to exclude our bodies and minds by delegating our politics to some well-meaning people all the time. Allies matters, however, there's never a true substitute for authenticity. Sure, there's stinkers and pull-up ladderers in our group, however, that's par for the course for politics. We can't help these who would backstab us or destroy our gains. That's the risk. We should strive nonetheless.
There is nothing better than somebody who can understand and gets it completely and helps you to the degree that even allies cannot. Having agency and power to make your own future is not to be underestimated. It turns you from being a spectator to someone who can do what you think is best for better or worse.
Agency and the ability to execute our own political agenda is extremely vital. All successful political social/economic movements ever created has leaders, representatives and followers who has the authentic experience and lives that comes of going through that sort of experience.
What this tells me is that we still need more people who knows what it's like to be disabled and gets it and can work for us.
Allies are always valuable and are appreciated and should be treasured, however, one thing is clear, it's ultimately our lives that we should be in control of, not be controlled by others. Having ourselves being able to find a way to empower and make our life better means we will be more able to pull our weight to help you right back to make a better future for all.
That is what matters. Being able to be on a more equal basis with other people. We would be more able to make a more universal society where we can be more able to be more involved in all of our futures.
Nothing about all of us without all of us.
And – I was not talking about tokenism nor advocating for such. I am advocating for a fuller vision of disabled people being woven more into the fabric of our greater society. It was always implicit in my argument that disabled people with some prior knowledge of the matters affecting ourselves were going to be what I was pushing for. Tokenism was never the aim. That you think any of what I was talking about was going to lead to Tokenism is not what I’m aiming for with my arguments: I’m aiming for addition and participation and agency and ability to exercise our voice and power amongst many in our society.
Your arguments seem to imply that we don't place any value on expertise, only representation when I don't actually think that. Ultimately, I am saying that we need more representation in the halls of power with actual expertise and plenty of ability to wield such expertise on the same basis as able-bodied people who we are working with on our own affairs and lives.
Nothing about us without us is what we are saying basically. We need to have power and a say in our own future as disabled people so we can return the favour to everyone else.
I fully support your views, Rolling-on-Gravel.
“The woman has MS. Medications used to manage the symptoms of MS are a who’s who of brain breakers that can affect moral decision making.”
Speaking as someone who has a close friend with MS – this is deeply insulting. Medication side effects may affect your ability in a range of areas – however, your moral code is not one of them.
If she is indeed so affected by side effects of her medication, that she can't make rational decisions about every-day matters – then she does not belong in the high-pressure environment of the House of Representatives.
Personally, I doubt that this is the case.
"Medications used to manage the symptoms of MS are a who’s who of brain breakers that can affect moral decision making.”"
Is this then, not true?
List of common medications used to treat MS here – cognitive dysfunction – let alone affecting moral decision making- is not listed as a risk factor for any of them.
https://www.webmd.com/multiple-sclerosis/ms-treatment
Your list proves it then: no cognitive dysfunction from MS medications.
Those who think otherwise, no matter what their experience, are wrong, right?
I'd be surprised if all of the meds in that article had zero impact on cognitive function. Read joe90's comments as well.
As in many matters medical, it often helps to get a second expert opinion.
Maybe the medications that Ghahraman has been prescribed to treat her MS condition (diagnosed in 2018) don't adversely affect her cognition, and maybe the condition itself doesn't affect her cognition, but usually I'd prefer more than a single anecdotal claim (based on the experiences of one of Belladonna's close friends) about how MS and MS treatments can affect people, before coming to a conclusion – we're all individuals.
https://www.cochranelibrary.com/cdsr/doi/10.1002/14651858.CD011381.pub3/full
I'd prefer some actual evidence that MS medications can "affect moral decision making" which was the initial claim.
So far – zip.
Joe has clarified here,
https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-10-01-2024/#comment-1984184
My reading now of the initial comment is that it was about cognitive impairment (from meds) that impact on ethical decisions, rather than the meds impairing ethics/morals.
Great. Glad he's walked that back.
This kind of poorly worded speculation potentially does a great deal of harm to all MS sufferers in the workplace. No one wants their boss to be thinking that their medication impacts on their ethics.
Nor, for the vast majority of MS sufferers (yet to see any evidence that it impacts any, but I'm willing to be convinced) – is there any impact of medication on their cognitive abilities or impulse control around decision-making.
People with MS already have a very hard row to hoe, with an 'invisible' disability. They don't need any added burdens arising from public misconception of the side-effects of the medication required to manage their condition.
fair points about the misconceptions about MS.
Anyone could have asked joe right at the start to clarify. It’s a shortcoming of our political debate culture.
Nah.
/
affect 1
/əˈfɛkt/
verb
verb: affect; 3rd person present: affects; past tense: affected; past participle: affected; gerund or present participle: affecting
"the dampness began to affect my health"
Fair call B – the human brain is a complex beast, so it's possible that MS medications (or the condition itself) could impair decision making (judgement, cognition etc.), without affecting moral decision making.
I don't know what Ghahraman did or didn't do at Scotties Boutique, why she did or didn't do it, whether her decision making was impaired and, if so, what might have contributed to the hypothetical impairment. Seems to be a lot of (pre)judgement given the apparent lack of facts.
That's politics for you.
SSRIs, SNRIs, and anticonvulsants are used in the management of MS symptoms.
Here, we investigated whether this hyperaltruistic disposition is susceptible to monoaminergic control. We observed dissociable effects of the serotonin reuptake inhibitor citalopram and the dopamine precursor levodopa on decisions to inflict pain on oneself and others for financial gain. Computational models of choice behavior showed that citalopram increased harm aversion for both self and others, while levodopa reduced hyperaltruism. The effects of citalopram were stronger than those of levodopa. Crucially, neither drug influenced the physical perception of pain or other components of choice such as motor impulsivity or loss aversion suggesting a direct and specific influence of serotonin and dopamine on the valuation of harm. We also found evidence for dose dependency of these effects. Finally, the drugs had dissociable effects on response times, with citalopram enhancing behavioral inhibition and levodopa reducing slowing related to being responsible for another’s fate.
https://www.cell.com/current-biology/fulltext/S0960-9822(15)00595-3
Nothing about changing ethical behaviour. If you think it is not OK to steal (or cause pain to others, in your example), taking the MS drugs isn't going to change that ethical decision.
What may change is your appreciation of consequences for your actions. This is not ethics, it's risk/reward.
Medications that affect decision making don't affect ethical decisions.
Really?
I'm curious how you think they do. Cognition can obviously be affected, but morality? Do you mean that cognition is impaired and this makes decisions more difficult, or do you mean people's sense of morality is altered?
Related to my own experience with how SNRIs and an anticonvulsant prescribed to treat neuropathic pain altered my decision making processes, no.
It's more a loss of impulse control and decision making abilities combined with a brain fade/blank page/forgetfulness thing. More than once I found myself having to return to a shop because I'd simply forgotten to pay. Driving was diabolical, too. I'd look right and see a car and know that I had to give way, look left, forget about the car on my right, and off I'd go. Multiple near misses until I gave up driving.
The other biggie was suicide ideation. For someone who'd never ever thought about taking their own life, being preoccupied with self harm was as scary AF.
thanks for clarifying joe, that makes a lot of sense.
Do you think someone with that level of impairment, while in that period, should have the additional burden and responsibility of acting as a MP?
Yes, Really.
Taking medication doesn't change your ethics. It may change your risk assessment (you don't perceive the consequences of your actions) – but if you think something is 'wrong' before you start your course of medication you'll still think it is 'wrong' while you're taking the drugs.
Those "date-rape" drugs – do they affect decision-making?
Datura is famed for changing a person's behaviour, suggestibility, long-established reactions to threats to safety.
the issue isn't decision making (meds affect that), it's whether morals and ethics are affected.
Ethics and morals don't involve decisions?
Colour me surprised.
you’ve completely misinterpreted what I said. Care to try again?
I stayed out of this discussion for a number of reasons, but ethical behaviour and moral judgement/moral decision-making can be affected by a wide range of medical (and non-medical!) conditions and treatments, incl. medication, obviously. Anyway, a person’s ethical values and principles are not as hard & fast as some (many?) seem to think.
That’s all I want to say about this.
How concrete are morals and ethics under the influence of medications?
Are you suggesting rock-solid?
I'm not of that mind.
Pain, desperation, despair, hopelessness coupled with narcotics, soporifics, deliriant etc. can dissipate ethical and moral resolve, imo.
(I'm not referring to Golritz' situation here).
No, I’m suggesting that you are misinterpreting what I am saying.
It’s hard to have a conversation when that is happening.
Belladonna @ 15.1.2
I suffer from severe osteoarthritis and am on a 24 hour pain regime. The consequence of that regime – plus the pain I still have to endure – leaves me tired and absent minded. I have walked out of a shop a few times without paying and the assistant has had to call me back. Since I have to use a crutch to get around they seem to know it was not deliberate and there have been no problems.
I have no idea what happened to Gholriz Gharaman, but if she was under some stress from the drugs she has to take, it may have had a bearing on what happened. Certain drugs can have negative effects for some people but not others.
Anne, I agree that medication and long-term pain can cause absent mindedness or brain fog – but that's not what was being alleged here. The claim was that it can "affect moral decision making". Which is AFAIK, completely untrue – and deeply insulting to people with MS.
OK. I see where you are coming from. Perhaps the term "affect moral decision making" is not appropriate. People who are on drugs, including medically prescribed drugs, can sometimes act in a way which is not normal for them. Its possible this is what happened here. Time will tell.
I support your view, Anne.
You seem to have a friend for every occasion with respect to political discussion. It's quite remarkable.
Perhaps you could have a conversation with your friend about the affects a MS diagnosis has on mental health. How did your friend fare 1 year after diagnosis, 2 years? For instance, was it difficult to accept having their future potentially ripped away from them?
I believe everyone has a different experience of disease and medication and it seems to me you expect a lot from sufferers, and are being a bit mean about one particular sufferer, for political purposes.
That is the kind of comment which inclines me to believe that you have zero practical acquaintance with anyone with a long-term disability or medical diagnosis.
Fail to see in what way I was 'mean' about Ghahraman. I was pointing out that Joe90's claim that MS medication can "affect moral decision making" is bunkum. And dangerous bunkum, at that.
I am perfectly willing to believe (if and when there are some actual examples provided – which, so far, there have not been) that medication for MS can affect decision-making and/or risk/reward decisions. Certainly we see this as a side effect of treatment for other medical conditions. What it can't do is change people's ethics or morals.
Frame up, trying to discredit a young brown liberated woman who fights for the poor, LGBTQ and Palestine. No shortage of people who want her out.
Hell of a frame up if it gets someone to stand from their roles
That's the whole idea.
"Frame up" implies there is no truth to the allegations. If that were the case, Ghahraman would have vigorously denied the allegation (possibly with an associated libel claim) – and been supported by the Green Party.
The current actions (refusal to comment, coupled with removal from her portfolios), imply that there is a case to answer.
I only replied so you wouldn't feel bad