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Open Mike 12/01/2018

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, January 12th, 2018 - 126 comments
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126 comments on “Open Mike 12/01/2018 ”

  1. Sanctuary 1

    When does the God-awful summer “program” end on RNZ and civilization return?

    I hate the way RNZ use the summer break to spend one month on a cost cutting shut down. The two idiots who do the afternoon show are one trick ponies whose get their jollies by banging on forever with their one big idea of playing bad music around some stupid theme. That gets old real, real quick. Shoot them. I’ll lie on the stand if you need an alibi.

    And I hate the constant repeating of slight magazine trivia from Jim Mora and the rest of them as mind-numbingly tedious filler to make it seem like RNZ isn’t on auto-pilot.


    • R.P. Mcmurphy 1.1

      I agree with all those sentiments. sigh and fill are dingbats without a doubt but there are more things to discuss about RNZ summer dumbdown. number one is they try and break in new post modern announcers who dont read the news scripts before they announce them and stumble over words that are just too big for them. secondly they go and get the worst right wingers for their road trip playlist songs. this morning it is kirk hope from business new zealand which is a total misnomer. business new zealand is in business solely to keep wages down. have you ever heard of a new business they have created or sponsored?

      • Morrissey 1.1.1

        Jimmy Barnes would DETEST this creep.
        Megan Whelan interviews Kirk Hope

        RNZ National, Friday 12 Jan. 2018

        Last Wednesday morning, listeners were subjected to a hapless, unprepared Megan Whelan providing an uninterrupted, uncritical sounding board to the disturbingly dishonest Robert Ayson:

        Open Mike 03/01/2018

        Today, she had another soft-spoken, sinister ideologue on the program:

        Business New Zealand Chief Executive Kirk Hope joins Megan to talk about his favourite tunes for a summer road trip. He also discusses the big issues facing companies in 2018 including the minimum wage increase, pay equity as well as what the future holds in the way businesses operate.


        Unlike her failure last week, today she at least showed a little spirit and the glimmering of a social conscience as Hope smoothly pushed his nightmarish vision of a New Zealand organized like Communist China.

        KIRK HOPE: ….and a band not many people have heard of, Grant Lee Buffalo.

        MEGAN WHELAN Oh I loved Grant Lee Buffalo!

        KIRK HOPE: But the next song I’ve chosen is “Singularity” by New Order. I thought New Order was just crap after 1983, but they’ve returned to form with this one. I was in Tokyo and I put a pair of headphones on and, as you do, I put Spotify on and I tell you this is the way you want to walk around Tokyo, listening to this kind of music!

        …..The song plays. After it, Megan Whelan decides to get serious….

        MEGAN WHELAN I talked recently to Richard Wagstaff of the CTU about the future of work.

        KIRK HOPE: China is an example of a rapidly industrializing country which is also rapidly digitizing. It’s replaced the fulltime jobs of an industrial economy with trading. That’s the secret behind the success of Ali Baba! One or two people on line.

        MEGAN WHELAN [clearly dubious] That’s significantly less secure, though.

        KIRK HOPE: I’m not sure it is. We have to think about what it will look like. There’s a LOT of work to go on in the education system; our funding models, what’s happening at the secondary level.

        MEGAN WHELAN Another thing with Richard—-I realize I’m sounding like a socialist revolutionary, and I don’t mean to, ha ha ha ha!—but he was worried about workers’ rights.

        KIRK HOPE: People will have more flexibility. They might want to take six months off and travel.

        MEGAN WHELAN Yeah but not a lot of people have this option. It’s different when it’s thrust on them. …. Anyway, what’s the last song you’ve chosen?

        KIRK HOPE: I’ve chosen “Driving Wheels” by Jimmy Barnes. My mates and I drove from Wanaka to Dunedin in a Valiant Regal one New Year’s Eve many years ago, listening to the album for this, Freight Train Heart…..

        MEGAN WHELAN Kirk Hope, thank you!

        That’s enough of Kirk Hope, but here’s more Megan Whelan if you can bear it…

        Open Mike 06/09/2017

    • Grantoc 1.2

      My radio alarm goes off at 6 am and RNZ comes on. Now, during summer. I hear the news straight up and then the music starts.

      The music is awful; its even worse than what’s played on Matinee Idol during summer afternoons on RNZ. At least there they know when to mock and know when to salute the music and do so in an interesting way.

      RNZ’s early morning music selection seems like it provides an excuse for RNZ to play stuff that probably hasn’t been played since it was first released (I can understand why – there was never an audience for it in the first place). Its ‘music’ without structure, melody, interesting lyrics or anything else that constitutes a good musical composition. Much of it is NZ music sad to say. In my opinion its simply tedious noise.

      As a result I hang out for some of the “slight magazine shows”, such as the BBC’s “Witness Programme” so I don’t have to listen to such terrible music.

      • whispering kate 1.2.1

        Be nice to get some alternative music – something that is not just a bloody noise to assail the ears first thing in the morning. “What the hell” is the first thing that comes to mind when I hear Paul Brennen’s tracks he plays. I enjoy the blues and some country music which I know is not everybody’s choice, but I also enjoy classical music and anything which has a melody. There is one thing positive about the summer programme, it drives me out of bed to do something more constructive like watering plants etc.

        • alwyn

          Can I suggest that you, and Grantoc, should ask some convenient child to show you how to tune your radio to some other station?
          Radios allow that you might be interested to know. Think of the amazing discoveries you will make. You might even find the Concert program.
          Ah, the new thrills you are going to have if, instead of just complaining, you take advantage of the amazing new technology that exists on your bedside table.

          • Wensleydale

            I’m picturing you typing that with an insufferably smug expression on your face. “Look Mum! I’ve discovered sarcasm and condescension! Can I have a pat on the head now?”

            • alwyn

              All right, if you must.
              Consider your head to be patted, you smug condescending prat.
              I will have to ask you to take the head pat in absentia though.
              I really don’t want to get nits from your unwashed noggin.

            • OncewasTim

              It’s trending doncha know

        • Anne

          Nice to hear you enjoy classical music wk. Some people seem to think that anyone who enjoys classical music must be peculiar. They don’t know what they are missing.

    • patricia bremner 1.3

      Love the music, can’t stand more of Mora!! Especially his rw pals.

    • OncewasTim 1.4

      Far preferable to Mora.
      But I agree….it’s a bit like the kids are in charge. There’s one ‘Sound Engineer’ who keeps forgetting what a cue button is …. or whatever they call it these days. Though given RNZ financials, its probably a ‘Audition/Programme’ key designed by British Telecom

    • OncewasTim 1.5

      I replied, but it disappeared up its own rrrr’s
      Summer time is a time for the kids and the up and coming to exercise their gloriousness.
      EVEN the Auckland Sound ‘ engineer ‘ who still can’t cope with a ‘CUE’ button.
      Once or twice
      …Ok….. but constantly?
      He….yes…HE has managed to destroy a couple of interviews I was interested in listening to without being overwritten by HIS wish to cue up the ‘cumming up’
      I’d say…if it were down to me…knock off the fucking P and get some rest….and realise RNZ has an audience.
      Either that, or you and the delightful Megan could hook up some time and create something you’re rilly rilly peshnit about.
      Perhaps Mex (K) could help

      • greywarshark 1.5.1

        Oh stop moaning about RNZ. Most people are enjoying it or slagging off Phil and Simon, in a rude way enjoyable to themselves and P &S just go on. The music is mostly okay and some new people are having an opportunity to show their stuff.

        If you like concert music there is a whole special broadcast of it and Eva Rakich, is it, comes on every now and then and introduces some into the ‘mainstream’. The items they have got are interesting, they have BBC World also, and I think you are all uptight. Turn it off if it doesn’t suit and play some of your DVDs or maybe some of your tapes if you still have a machine for that. You will hear some stuff not heard for decades.

  2. The Chairman 2

    “At its very worst, it could be alleged that it is coordinated exploitation.”

    • That’s how our rentier economic system works. Ticket clipping makes a few people rich for which they produce no value at all while everyone else is fucked over to the point where they can no longer support those rich bludgers.

      And the rich are always bludgers.

      • The Chairman 2.1.1

        “That’s how our rentier economic system works”

        Indeed. Thus it’s no surprise similar is happening here too.

        Many moons ago I worked for a company that installed a similar regime. Employees would become contractors and would start the working week in debt to the company. Having to lease the van and equipment required off the company.

        We all gave notice and left.

        And as for the reasons the article highlighted (harder to decline) the employers then turned to WINZ for new recruits.

        • Descendant Of Sssmith

          Aye you’ve seen the shifting of employer costs to workers under the guise of contracting ever since Robbin’ Douglas and his bunch of un-merry men.

          Robbing the poor to give to the rich.

          Whether it’s vehicles, whether it’s equipment, whether it’s uniforms, whether it’s sick leave,whether it’s redundancy,….

          These are all costs that employers have shifted onto workers and convinced workers they are better off for it.

          • The Chairman

            “Aye you’ve seen the shifting of employer costs to workers under the guise of contracting…”

            Indeed. We did the numbers (of the previous year, which was a good year) to compare what it would be like under the new regime and of course, we (the employees) were the big losers. Hence, we quit.  

  3. bwaghorn 3


    is it ok to hold back evidence of mistreatment of animals so as to cause maximum impact damage to the farming industry , or should it be handed over straight away?

    i say it should be handed over as soon as possible

    • Sanctuary 3.1

      Those sort of laws should be seen for what they are – purchased politicians pushing the agenda of their donor corporate interests.

      • bwaghorn 3.1.1

        so you are ok for animals to suffer longer so it suits the filmers agenda , and so they can frame it for maximum impact , and edit it accordingly

        • Ed

          The filmers’ agendas is to stop the torture and execution of billions of sentient beings in industrial killing factories.

          Seems worth it to me.

        • greywarshark

          Who is making those animals suffer bwaghorn? The businesspeople farming them or the protesters? You seem to be a bit confused about what seems very straightforward.

          And the protesters are putting themselves at risk from vengeful farmers and those that are agriculture-connected. Also they need to have irrevocable evidence to bring about change for the better. It is no use sacrificing their time and life to get information that is easily refuted or just unverified observation. I hope that you would not be vengeful but I note that you are quick to change the focus away from those causing the harm.

          It seems to me that you are suffering a case of Triangulation (psychology related) which is something that all who discuss and argue on TS ought to understand so as to increase the effectiveness of an argument.

          Also the Karpman triangle where one person involved in discussion about a problem can shift in approach through three positions like the points of a triangle – Victim (We’re having it tough) – Rescuer (Now taking the side of the victim) – The Persecutor (It’s your fault, you bring about the bad outcome.)

          In your comment bwaghorn you turn on the protesters and become Persecutor, blaming them for withholding information so as to reveal a mass of evidence later at a hearing to judge whether there was bad treatment of animals. You think it should be released straight away to the authorities who could decide immediately to force a change in conditions. That is a theory and supposition on your part that the protesters have rejected as unlikely, from their experience in the past which would be greater than yours.

          You present the farmers targeted, because you identify with them, as Victims.
          And in the third point, you yourself are the principled Rescuer, wanting to help those receiving criticism in the agricultural sector.

          So you are avoiding facing up to the object of the protest action, and presenting the protesters as unethical, (because you now accept there is bad treatment that the protesters themselves have established as fact through their action), and you now turn and blame them for it continuing. You should instead be blaming those carrying it out.

          That is a very neat psychological trick that academics have had to study for a long time, observing,and finally explaining it as in the two examples given above.

          • bwaghorn

            ” if they do not promptly hand over their evidence exposing animal cruelty to the authorities in a timely manner.”

            as the usual suspects have turned up to defend their hobbie horse , i’ll type this slowly so you fallas can understand it,

            know where does it say that the will let farmers off , what it says is they will turn a blind eye to radicals illegal spying on farmers if they hand over the evidence of the farmers crimes quickly , not let animals continue to suffer so they can get more wow factor.

            i personaly potted a coworker to the gm of an outfit i worked at for animal abuse , (the guy was not coping and the gm feared he would suicide so nothing was done , as the guy was leaving).

            while i dont condone illegal spying it helps me count to 10 when i ,ve been doing 10 hour days and a simple sheep is winding me up

            • Ed

              I bet you can’t be bothered to research the issue and find out what is done to animals in factory farms.
              Anti slavery campaigners were smeared as radicals.
              Nelson Mandela and the ANC were smeared as radicals.

              • McFlock

                Nelson Mandela was not, however, a sanctimonious tosser.

                • Ed

                  Debate the issue.
                  Drop the name calling.

                  • solkta

                    Don’t you mean THE issue? Veganism that is.

                    • Ed

                      Keep trying to derail the debate away from the mistreatment of animals.
                      This is a debate on industrial farming and whistle blowing.

                      Not veganism.

                    • solkta

                      Ironic supersonic!

                    • Ed

                      My first comment on this thread stated

                      “I really doubt most New Zealand meat eaters are remotely aware of what industrial farming looks like.”

                      Completely relevant to industrial farming and whistleblowers.
                      The reason for people’s ignorance is a lack of transparency in the industry.

                    • solkta

                      and quickly devolved to:

                      “The answer is to adopt a plant based diet permanently.”

                  • One Anonymous Bloke

                    People like waghorn and pm…


                  • McFlock

                    Sure. Industrial farming is nothing like slavery, because cows aren’t people. It doesn’t excuse animal crualty, but it does explain why someone might think you’re a sanctimonious dickhead and avoid the majority of your comments. So even if you had an argument, fewer people would read it than if you were a reasonable human being.

          • Ed

            People like waghorn and pm would have decried anti slavery movements in the 1770s, calling the activists smug for be against slavery and cruel for not telling the authorities about who wrote a secret report on the inside of a slave ship.

      • Ed 3.1.2

        Puppet politicians delivering laws for their corporate overlords.

    • UncookedSelachimorpha 3.2

      But the purpose of the legislation is not to promote animal welfare – quite the opposite. The purpose is to identify, expose, punish and deter whistleblowers who report animal abuse.

      There will need to be an anonymous release channel for whistleblowers, if this type of legislation is passed.

      • The Chairman 3.2.1

        Clever idea though, using the guise of animal welfare to ride their high horse and help push it through.

        • red-blooded

          “It’s not common practice, just a few bad farmers letting the rest of us down” – this is the line we hear so much from the farming lobby (and that Mr and Ms meat, egg and dairy consumer want to hear, so that they don’t have to consider their role in creating the demand that sees animals (mis)treated as commodities rather than conscious, living beings). If groups like SAFE and Farmwatch need to gather evidence to show that a particular practice is widespread, then let them. We definitely don’t need this kind of law, and I doubt very much that we’ll have one imposed under this government. I wish animal welfare was a stronger priority for them, although I recognise that mine is a minority viewpoint.

          • Psycho Milt

            …Mr and Ms meat, egg and dairy consumer want to hear, so that they don’t have to consider their role in creating the demand that sees animals (mis)treated as commodities rather than conscious, living beings).

            Meanwhile, Mr and Ms meat, egg and dairy consumer are at least willing to acknowledge and face the fact that their diet involves killing animals, something rarely to be found among smug, moralising vegans.

            • Ed

              I really doubt most New Zealand meat eaters are remotely aware of what industrial farming looks like.
              In reality factory farming is the prolonged torture and cruel killing of billions of animals.

              I recommend Jonathan Safran Soer’s book ‘Eating Animals.’
              Particularly the chapters on the industrial ‘farming’ and killing of chickens and pigs.
              There’s nothing smug about the book.

            • red-blooded

              If you look a bit further up this thread I think you’ll find plenty of smug (insincere) moralising from BW. Not, from what I can tell, a vegan!

              And this site is filled with people expounding on their political and ethical viewpoints, arguing with others and getting pretty smug at times, too. It’s by no means limited to people espousing veganism. How often have you noticed me smugly moralising about (or mentioning) my 30+ years of veganism? Note the comment above about recognising that mine is a minority viewpoint. Hardly hardline…

              If you’re feeling defensive about your choice to continue eating animals, that’s your problem. I don’t eat animals and I don’t eat any products that come from animals. It’s not the main thing I choose to discuss on this site, but I’m not going to be bullied by name-calling into never mentioning it.

              • One Anonymous Bloke

                Maybe BWaghorn and Ed can get their own post where the “debate” can continue at their level.

              • So, this is the first time you’ve publicly expressed the view here that people who don’t share your diet are moral failures. Big whoop. If you comment denouncing people like me for eating food, I’m going to comment pointing out my dislike of people doing that. Try not suggesting that people who don’t share your diet are moral failures, it works wonders.

    • Your question was answered in the article:

      “It also removes the possibility for whistleblowers to build evidence of systemic industry-wide cruelty by forcing them to report incidents in isolation only.

      “Some of the most important developments in animal protection laws have stemmed from undercover surveillance and the work of journalists in bringing the realities of factory farming to the public.”

      So, yeah, need to build up the evidence to show the systemic aspect of the abuse of animals else it will just be ignored.

    • Ed 3.4

      The filming inside these factories which house the torture and killing of millions of sentient beings has to be stopped by the industrial farming lobby.
      If people knew what happened there, they would be out of business.

      • mauī 3.4.1

        The answer is Veganuary. It’s like the month of January but without meat.

        • Ed

          The answer is to adopt a plant based diet permanently.
          If people are serious about fixing our planet, then we know what we must do and we must do it.
          One simple and easy sacrifice to make in the interests of preventing climate catastrophe.


          • solkta

            You are doing it again – conflating animal rights and environmental arguments.

            • Ed

              There are animal rights and environmental issues surrounding the industrial processing of billions of sentient living animals into meat.

              Clearly you don’t care about either the damage being done to the end by industrial animal agriculture nor the welfare of the sentient creatures who endure the barbaric conditions inside these factories.

              So you make smart comments instead.

              Debate the actual issue.

              • solkta

                Assumptions fucking much. Actually i will be protesting outside the rodeo tomorrow. I haven’t eaten mammal flesh for more than thirty years.

                I usually don’t bother to engage in discussion with you as it is clearly pointless. You have made up your mind what is right for you and you are hell bent now on forcing that on everybody else. I do really care about both animal welfare and climate change and watching you run around alienating people is therefore painful.

                Perhaps if you cared more for animals you might talk more about stricter laws and enforcement which would be much more achievable than universal veganism.

                Perhaps if you cared more for people you might come to understand that some of us find it hard to meet our nutritional needs from just plants. I can’t eat most grains and nuts for health reasons for example, and eggs and fish are an important part of my diet.

                Perhaps if you cared more for the environment you would understand that chickens and cows form an integral part of many permaculture systems.

                • Ed

                  My comments are about industrial farming, not permaculture.

                  I would have stricter laws. They would entail the closure of all industrial farming methods.

                  But catastrophic climate change is happening very soon unless we act.
                  People are going to have to be forced to make significant sacrifices if we are to mitigate the worst outcomes.

                  In World War 2, people’s food was rationed to help win the war.
                  Is it too much to ask that people are forced to move to a plant based diet to save the planet?

                  • solkta

                    NO, your comments are about VEGANISM. Animal rights and climate change are just the issues you hang it off.

                    “The answer is to adopt a plant based diet permanently. … we know what we must do and we must do it.”

              • One Anonymous Bloke


                Clearly you don’t care about either the damage being done to the end by industrial animal agriculture nor the welfare of the sentient creatures who endure the barbaric conditions inside these factories.


                I haven’t eaten mammal flesh for more than thirty years…

                Deja vue all over again.

                • Union city greens

                  For someone whose supposed to love animals, and purports to have their best interests at heart, Ed/Paul certainly loves beating on that dead donkey of his.

  4. R.P. Mcmurphy 4

    This is the year when people have to begin the fightback against the right wing media. The easiest way is micropulse radio stations which are cheap to buy and incur no music royalties if there are no ads. These radio stations are low powered and line of sight and more effective than the msm whould have you believe.
    If tribesmen in in the hindu kush can run their own in discrete valleys then what is stopping comparatively wealthy pakehas with disposable income from getting their arses into gear and taking the tories head on at their own game.

    • Sanctuary 4.1

      Are you sure atomising the shared public spaces is actually a good idea for a healthy civil society? rather than calling for more and more micro-services where people can have their views reinforced in tiny echo chambers wouldn’t it be better to campaign for a well funded publicly owned public service broadcasting network with a wide audience and a range of diverse voices?

      • red-blooded 4.1.1

        +100%, Sanctuary.

      • tc 4.1.2

        +100 you’d also regenerate the local content production landscape as it’s been flogged off over the past years so we need the ‘local’ put back.

        Drama, childrens, comedy, documentaries all get a lift if you adopt the ABC model from Oz. Light entertainment as one example is an easy category to make content for and TVNZ showed they can’t even get that right with appalling efforts.

        TVNZ is our public broadcaster it just needs some legislation and funding to reshape it as a proper one and flush out the Kendricks and Co for proper broadcasters before it’s too late as they are a dying breed.

      • R.P. Mcmurphy 4.1.3

        you dont understand. it is important that people have real input into the affairs of the community which is based on non profit social justice and the easiest way to do it is with local radio. especially when you play renaissance and pre renaissance music.
        rnz can look after itself very well .

    • Ad 4.2

      R.P., could you expand this idea a bit.

      It’s a bit truncated.

      • R.P. Mcmurphy 4.2.1

        you have to pay if you want the playlist.

        • R.P. Mcmurphy

          and the 60’s hippy revolution was backed by the first fm stations who cleaned up later and sold out when the wave receeded. Cant go back now but if you want a revolution NOW then you gotta know what you are doing.

    • Graeme 5.1

      Two words

      Social Investment

      Coppers have been doing it for years, actually started in 1976 with this toy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Law_Enforcement_System in Whanganui.

    • red-blooded 5.2

      I think there’s value in having community follow-up for people who’re fresh out of prison (for example). I don’t think the police are the right agency to be doing this, though.

      • Stuart Munro 5.2.1

        Everything depends on the police involved – they can range from the kind who harass to the kind who give a damn and become genuinely supportive. These human factors are hard to measure from the outside, though the people they visit can probably work out what’s going on pdq.

        • The Chairman

          Some may find it embarrassing with the neighbours or any visiting guests wondering why the police are calling.

          Some may find it intimidating, thinking they are being watched or are going to be pinned for any burglaries in the neighbourhood.

          Some may find it a total infringement of their rights, being innocent of any recent crime but being harassed nonetheless.

          • Stuart Munro

            Agreed – it can be all of those things – but it can be done in a way that is positive. Whether it should be done rather depends on how careful they are not to infringe rights, and to avoid alarming neighbours and so forth.

            There is a behavioral aspect to some kinds of offending, and support can assist if it is genuine. It is the kind of thing that perhaps should be part of a rehabilitation system – and my understanding of burglary is that a very small number of active burglars may generate a considerable amount of loss and damage.

            • The Chairman

              They could simply call (on the phone) to see if help is required.

              • Stuart Munro

                Yes – but there is some validity in the human contact angle, as well as the impressionistic assessment of whether things are going ok. It would be unwise to confine an assessment of a recovering alcoholic to phone calls, and to some extent the same might be true of burglars.

                • Isn’t this something that parole officers would be for if we actually had a decent rehabilitation system?

                • The Chairman

                  So the friendly offer of support has now turned into an assessment, leading to the presumption of innocence taking a further step backwards.

                  • Stuart Munro

                    Do you suppose that the presumption of innocence extends to preventing the police from making enquiries? I think you’ll find it doesn’t. But successfully rehabilitated people – those who have managed to get their life back together – can probably be excluded from many enquiries.

                    Much would depend on what resources the police might have at their disposal to make a ‘helping hand’ approach actually helpful.

                    • The Chairman

                      Calling around to someones home and making inquiries on no other grounds other than an individual’s past history does seem to rob one of the presumption of innocence, but I’m no legal expert.

  5. Ed 6

    George Monbiot.

    “Wouldn’t it be great if journalists asked themselves “what is important?” rather than “what is topical?”.“

  6. Ed 7

    Edgar McGregor

    “Climate change needs more action and less advocacy. Unlike other world issues such as racism, sexism and starvation, climate change will one day be unsolvable. We are losing control of the situation. We know what we need to do, we know what we can expect, we just have to act.”

  7. Ed 8

    George Monbiot on Theresa May’s 25 year environmental plan.

    “It’s as if it were written with an angel on one shoulder and a devil on the other. In terms of rhetoric, Theresa May’s 25-year environment plan is in some ways the best government document I’ve ever read. In terms of policy, it ranges from the pallid to the pathetic.

    Those who wrote it are aware of the multiple crises we face. But, having laid out the depth and breadth of our predicaments, they propose to do almost nothing about them. I can almost hear the internal dialogue: “Yes, let’s change the world! Hang on a minute, what about our commitment to slashing regulations? What about maximising economic growth? What would the Conservatives’ major funders have to say about it? Oh all right, let’s wave our hands around instead.”


    • Ed 8.1

      One notable line.

      “A plastic-free aisle in supermarkets will not deliver a plastic-free isle.”

      • Ed 8.1.1

        And his conclusion.

        “The more an economy grows, the more resources it will consume. If it’s not plastic, it will be cardboard, and the cardboard is likely to be made from chewed-up rainforest. Clamp down on the use of cardboard, and something else will take its place. An economy that keeps growing on a planet that does not will inevitably burst through environmental limits, however sincere a government might be about seeking to reduce its impacts. The big conversation we need within government has still not begun. ”

        I shall distil Monbiot’s passage into a few simple words.

        We need to rid ourselves of capitalism.
        Or die.

  8. chris73 9


    Will be interesting to see what the Greens do about this

    In 1999, speaking against an earlier party-hopping bill, Green co-leader Rod Donald reminded the House that “had this bill existed prior to the last [1999] election, we [Donald and Fitzsimons] would have been removed from this House and denied our opportunity to stay here for the full parliamentary term”.

    • The Chairman 9.1

      “Will be interesting to see what the Greens do about this”


    • McFlock 9.2

      The flipside is when you have an MP who remains too long in the party and does as much as possible to burn it down before leaving.

      Party hopping is much less damaging than that.

    • Jim Anderton left Labour mid-term to set up NewLabour (which later merged into the Alliance).

      And he did it in the 1980s and held his own electorate so not a good example.

      In fact, any ‘party hopping’ prior to the 1996 election has no bearing on it.

      Rod Donald and Jeanette Fitzsimons left the Alliance for the Greens

      Which is untrue. The greens were part of the Alliance but were still The Greens. Donald and Fitzsimons would still have been Green MPs.

      They didn’t leave their party – their party left The Alliance. And it could be argued that their seats were the Green Party share of the Alliance vote they should have kept them anyway.

      As Donald said in the 1999 speech to Parliament, MPs are not “party robots”,

      I don’t expect MPs to be ‘party robots’ but if they leave the party then they damn well shouldn’t keep their seat because they’re no longer representing those that voted for them on the party ticket.

      Take the recent example of Green MPs Kennedy Graham and David Clendon publicly calling for the resignation of co-leader Metiria Turia. They were then excluded from the Green caucus and could have then been ejected from Parliament, after various bureaucratic processes had been gone through, if the current party-hopping legislation had been operational.

      Exactly as it should be.

      Resorting to legislation to get rid of an MP potentially involves the courts, which are not equipped to handle political or process disputes within parliamentary caucuses.

      Then we need better law…

      …Oh, wait.

      It is safer, and more democratic, to leave decisions on the makeup of Parliament to the voters.

      That’s what the party vote does. If an MP then leaves a party then they’ve removed themselves from that decision by the voters and should be removed from parliament.

      Electorate MPs are more complex because they’ve actually been voted for by the electorate. We actually need the power of recall given to the voters so that an electorate can remove if they deem it necessary.

      • patricia bremner 9.3.1

        Yes!! 1000% DracoTB, they should seek a new mandate from the voters.

      • Graeme 9.3.2

        Yeah, spot on Draco

        List MPs are there on the basis of their party’s share of the vote, it’s the party’s mandate, not the MP’s, therefore if they leave the party they loose the right to that party’s mandate and should be gone from parliament and replaced by the next person on that party’s list.

        Electorate MPs have a personal mandate from their electorate, so it’s the MP’s mandate, not the party’s.

        • greywarshark

          Good explanation Graeme. Makes it clear for the unsure.

          • Descendant Of Sssmith

            I’d argue that not allowing them to leave means that the party needs to take more care in their original selection and in how they treat and deal with them for the term of the government.

            It’s a fixed term and if the party has screwed up then they need to live with it.

            Just shoving any fuckwit on the list is best stopped by not being able to get rid of them til the next election.

            Having an internal revolution and changing direction at the hierarchical level shouldn’t mean you can offload the MP’s you don’t like post the revolution.

            Then there’s also the issue of the workers for those MP’s. It’s enough that they only have certainty of work for an electoral term without adding to the possibility that the may become out of work cause the party no longer loves an MP – or the MP no longer loves the party.

            It’s not often I agree with Nick Smith (actually I don’t think I’ve ever agreed with him and there is some strong irony in some of what he says) but on this I do.


            • greywarshark

              Just shoving any fuckwit on the list is best stopped by not being able to get rid of them til the next election.

              Your language says that you are not considering the matter in a balanced way. Political parties are a group of people trying to get into a position to have some sway in the country. They are trying to be part of the political process; they may do things wrongly but talking about them and those involved as ‘fuckwit’ doesn’t add anything to the discussion.

              Calling an individual a ‘fuckwit’ when they obviously are failing to achieve anything worthwhile and make statements that fail to take in the reality of the position may be justified, but not some blanket dismissive. You have proved by the way you used that term generally that individually it might be applied to you.

              • Descendant Of Sssmith

                You take the comment far too non-contextually.

                I’ve used the extreme end of the spectrum i.e. the party selecting someone completely inappropriate to make the point that it should not be justified under any circumstance.

                I’m not leaving any grey for the party to say ooops we got it wrong.

                They need to take that care in the first place – not have an escape clause.

            • Graeme

              To an extent we have that in the way Party lists remain in place for the term of the Parliament. If a list member dies, leaves for a diplomatic post or fucks up and has to go, the Party is stuck with ringing in the next person on their list. Sure we see a bit of gymnastics to get the one the Party really wants, but it is a strong incentive for Parties to be reasonably circumspect on who’s on their lists.

              I’m waiting to see what unfolds if there is a string of departures when the National leadership eventually blows open. Fully expect the new leader to try and reshape the caucus in their form. Maybe that’s what the squatter is about in his rather confused and paranoid rant.

              • Descendant Of Sssmith

                Aye that’s why I like what we have and not what is proposed.

                Examples from the early days of MMP I think are a poor case to justify change as I’m sure parties are now a little wiser in selecting their list MP’s than when MMP first came in – if they’re not then they should be.

                • Graeme

                  There’s another interpretation of the squatter’s rant. Maybe he’s pissed that National won’t be able to induce defections of NZ first MPs, again.

                  I’m not so sure about the squatter’s assertion that the waka jumping bill allows the party to “fire” list MPs any more than the current arrangement allows a party to request the member to consider their future.

            • Draco T Bastard

              I’d argue that not allowing them to leave means that the party needs to take more care in their original selection and in how they treat and deal with them for the term of the government.

              They’re allowed to leave it’s just that if they do and they’re a list MP then they also leave parliament.

              Just shoving any fuckwit on the list is best stopped by not being able to get rid of them til the next election.

              If they leave then they’ve removed themselves.

              Then there’s also the issue of the workers for those MP’s. It’s enough that they only have certainty of work for an electoral term without adding to the possibility that the may become out of work cause the party no longer loves an MP – or the MP no longer loves the party.

              Such risk obviously comes with the job and one of the reasons why they’re paid quite well.

  9. Stunned Mullet 11

    I thought it was the Daisycutter sports New Year’s bash ?

    • Morrissey 11.1

      Sadly, Mullet, there was a shortage of sadists at the last one. A stark contrast to 2005.

  10. Ed 13

    Looks like the government’s plans are working to drive out the speculative class.
    The article has the usual Herald bias, as the rag represents the rentier class, but it does provide some interesting facts if you can peel away the propaganda.


    • indiana 13.1

      If person owns just one property as a rental property, do they fit into the “speculative” class?

      • They certainly fit into the ‘rentier’ class.

      • McFlock 13.1.2

        Yes, if likely capital gains were a significant part of their motivation to purchase it.

        Otherwise… probably.

        • greywarshark

          It’s always seen as a sensible investment to have a rental property. I don’t see it as speculative and it wouldn’t be a problem if Labour hadn’t gone feral and National hadn’t gone plutocratic and together they have skewed the country so badly.

          See Jeremy Corbyn take on Margaret Thatcher about housing in 1990.
          The link is at No. 17 here. The facts he was quoting were bad back then for Britain.

          • McFlock

            Well, yeah. But the fact is that the nats and labz were what they were, and so for the last thirty years people have bought a rental property on the basis that the capital value will increase enough for them to afford to pay off the property when they sell it down the line, and frequently make up the gap between their income and the mortgage with the rent the property gets.

    • The Chairman 13.2

      @ Ed

      “Mum and dad investors ‘fleeing’ property…”

      Who will fill the void?

      Institutional investors?

      And will tenants be any better off?

      Perhaps the Government could buy them and turn them into state homes?

  11. Ed 14

    It’s not ‘weather weirdness’ NZ Herald.
    It’s climate change.
    And the sooner you’re honest about this, the quicker New Zealand will start acting decisively to deal with it.

    30 degrees in Invercargill

    Record marine heatwave

  12. Ed 16

    “Of 21 Winter Olympic Cities, Many May Soon Be Too Warm to Host the Games.”


  13. greywarshark 17

    British politics.
    First – Jeremy Corbyn v Margaret Thatcher on Housing in 1990
    Housing – People sleeping on the streets, children brought up in b*Bs, but Councils have empty houses so there is no difficulty.

    Jeremy Corbyn v Margaret Thatcher

    Theresa May v Tony Blair

    then question on Brexit

  14. Eco Maori 18

    There would be many benefit for New Zealand if we banned plastic bags come on let’s get this environmentally friendly economy going don’t listen to the nay Sayers. We have all the raw materials to make paper bags what’s the problem we will create jobs come on

    I think that Theo Spiering should take my advice on the solarpanel on cow sheds maybe Papatuanuku will let up on that cow disease and it mite stop spreading that’s my view on that subject P.S. I seen the thunder in action yesterday on thestandard many thanks to all my viewers ka pai ka kite ano

  15. Ed 19

    Steve Cowan nails it.

    “Jim Anderton was New Zealand’s last significant social democratic politician. While some are claiming he pulled Labour Party back ‘from the brink’ and back to the ‘centre-left’ this is a convenient rewriting of history. The Labour Party today bears little resemblance to the Labour Party that Jim Anderton once knew.”


  16. eco maori 20

    I read one comment saying that its a totally different country .I say that this country has a major influence on all the SOCIETIES on Papatuanuku/MotherEarth .So If we can voice All OUR concerns about the direction that we see that country going down If we let them Know NOW this will save a lot of pain and suffering in the future . Kia Kaha
    Here is a song I like from the next generation Ka kite ano

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