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Open mike 15/05/2019

Written By: - Date published: 7:00 am, May 15th, 2019 - 156 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

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156 comments on “Open mike 15/05/2019”

  1. McFlock 1

    Morning all. Not usually up this early, so might as well do a shout out to Otago Museum lol

    Te Papa seems to have let it slide (I’m sure it has nothing to do with reports over the last year about how resident museum experts of international standing were restructured out of a job).
    DoC didn’t do anything because it wasn’t sure the footprints were of DoC land.
    Otago Museum snaffled the Moa footprints 🙂

    • vto 1.1

      Moa had it sussed… leaving only footprints…

      What we can learn from the birds and the beasts

      • RedLogix 1.1.1

        Footprints and gastroliths

        • vto 1.1.1.1

          And DNA… Moa has to be top of list for bringing back from extinction – wish someone would hurry up and do it…

          … likely has already been done, or at least attempted for some species, and we are just not aware

      • Robert Guyton 1.1.2

        The dawn chorus is when birds are advising us humans how to resolve the crisis we have created.

    • Muttonbird 1.2

      How did the Moa know not to walk on DoC land?

      • Incognito 1.2.1

        Why did the Moa cross the road?

        • Jenny - How to get there? 1.2.1.1

          Why did the Moa cross the road?

          To wait for the humans to join it

      • Robert Guyton 1.2.2

        Is it possible that the Moa vocals; grunts, flutings, whistles, whatever, are preserved in the song of the tui and bellbird?

        Moa left their bones behind as well, and fragments of egg shell; skin too, feathers intact, in the Canterbury caves.

        • Andre 1.2.2.1

          Doubt it, tui cultural memory doesn't seem that long. It only took a couple of years for the local tuis to lose the default Nokia text alert and replace it with the Samsung.

      • Robert Guyton 1.2.3

        “How did the Moa know not to walk on DoC land?”

        Being a ratite and knowing DoC's view on rats…

    • bwaghorn 1.3

      Na it would have been simple arrogance . How could a mere tractor driver know what hes on about . Every time ive dealt with doc thats the attitude ive meet.

      • marty mars 1.3.1

        you must admit simple tractor drivers have contributed to the loss of much and every farmer has their collection of historical taonga sitting in the cabinet along with the ivory carvings from Asia, or hidden in a box because they are scared. How many sites have been just pretended not seen and bulldozed over. You know this is true.

        • bwaghorn 1.3.1.1

          You are an idiot . Are all maori child beaters ?? Of course they aren't. But if i used you moronic thinking methods i would claim that .

          • marty mars 1.3.1.1.1

            YOU are generalising about DOC you thick wanker – don't have a go at me for learning ya. And you know farmers have dug up all sorts of shit and not handed it in. But keep your cheap bigoted bullshit shots coming daggy and we'll sort that too eh cos YOU are the ONLY one bringing Māori into it.

            • bwaghorn 1.3.1.1.1.1

              Ah now i see . You a doc worket are you ?

              They come in two types . Solid people with an understanding of how the world works and jumped up prats who wouls curl up and cry if their gps broke down in the bush . I know which one you are.

              As for digging stuff up . Never have dont know any one who has but keep making up fantasies about m if it gets you hot .

              • marty mars

                wtf?

                I'm not nor ever have been a DOC worker.

                If you haven't got artifacts you're a liar but you know – so fucken what – do I really care? nah.

                I think you are doing your bit out there.

                As for your original comment – well your self esteem is your business and I'll butt out. I wish I'd never bothered commented to ya.

      • marty mars 1.3.2

        How much loot have you ‘found’ from the land daggy waggy?

      • Pingau 1.3.3

        Don't think he signed his query "tractor driver" when he sent it to the general DOC site. There is likely to be a lag especially these days when dealing using a general public channel with any organisation, especially any under-resourced government organisation. Best to have a direct line to a real person in my experience.

    • Tuppence Shrewsbury 1.4

      what is it with te papa and hoarding treasures and refuting the validity of those it doesn’t own?

      Is the Otago museum the one with the amazing butterfly biome?

      • Robert Guyton 1.4.1

        Tuppence – I wonder if you've read of imaginal or liminal cells in relation to butterflies?

        http://www.butterflymysteries.com/imaginal-cells.html

        • francesca 1.4.1.1

          Well,I read it Robert

          Beautiful!

          thanks so much for that

          • Robert Guyton 1.4.1.1.1

            You're welcome, Francesca. The follow up, if you were interested enough, would be to search out information on morphic resonance. It's pretty astounding stuff, in my opinion. Some molecular biologists share similar views on that topic, with some highly respected theologians.

            • francesca 1.4.1.1.1.1

              I seem to remember Rupert Sheldrake being required reading for us hippies back in the 80's

              • Robert Guyton

                Rupert Sheldrake is/was fascinating. You might like to try Terrence McKenna, francesca:

                Make yourself a big pot of tea and settle back into your chair for a wonderful watch 🙂

                • francesca

                  Thanks Robert

                  Very much my cup of tea these days!

                  I've noticed a real resurgence of these ideas among the young, in line with living a more simple honest life.There's a yearning to reconnect.

                  Uplifting and exciting!

                  • Robert Guyton

                    Follow the hippies! Yes, there is the resurgence you describe, across the board, young and old and it's not surprising, given the co-creative ideas that are at the source of the things Sheldrake et al said. A rapidly approaching, plain as the nose on your face crisis is helping to sharpen everyone's focus. Despite the distractions, many people are looking now, in a more useful direction. There's a lot of talk about the heart 🙂

                  • OnceWasTim

                    "I've noticed a real resurgence of these ideas among the young, in line with living a more simple honest life."

                    Your not alone. And let's just hope as they grow older, they can do it a little more gracefully. Even despite mid-life crises, let's hope it's not a case Harley Davidson's, neo-liberal ideology and children as possessions and as extensions their ego. Although I think we could probably accommodate a pony tail or two – it may be all John Key has to satisfy himself in his dotage.

                    • Robert Guyton

                      I don't believe it is, OnceWasTim; I reckon it's game-on.

                    • OnceWasTim

                      So do I @ Robert as it happens.

                      Currently I'm surrounded by students that have just graduated from Vic Uni – quite smart cookies (arts students as it happens), having survived 3 or 4 years of slum-landlord living, and all too aware of what they're faced with, and what it is they going to have to deal with.

                      They might not be able to replace a fuse (they're RCD devices these days anyway), but they can sure as hell tell bullshit when they see it no matter how hard the political elite and its administrative wing try to spin it.

                      They know all too well what they're faced with. AND they're working out ways to deal with it

                • One Two

                  McKenna is intriguing listening, for sure.

                  Both Terence and Dennis are.

                  Thanks for the link.

            • RedLogix 1.4.1.1.1.2

              Indeed. Inside of a chrysalis the old caterpillar literally dissolves; all trace of it's old structure literally vanishes into a undifferentiated gloop. The metaphor with our human polity has been drawn by many.

              The human race is passing through an equally dramatic transition and the eventual outcome will be a "new race of men". The good news is that I sense we are already well into the process, at least 150 years or more of unprecedented, accelerating change places us very close to the crux, the point of maximal disintegration just prior to the new becoming visible.

              But the disintegration of the old world order is noisy and dangerous; like the collapse of the WTC towers it captures the attention and mesmerises; yet at the same time there is this organic 'imaginal' process underway, gathering the components needed for the new. This is where our energies need to be.

              The parallel with how we might solve a 9 billion piece jigsaw puzzle lacking the finished image comes to mind; we sift almost at random, finding small clumps that fit together building on each of them slowly, even when the connection between all the various incomplete clumps is unclear or contradictory even.

              • Anne

                The parallel with how we might solve a 9 billion piece jigsaw puzzle lacking the finished image comes to mind; we sift almost at random, finding small clumps that fit together building on each of them slowly, even when the connection between all the various incomplete clumps is unclear or contradictory even.

                The transformation of our general attitude towards people of Muslim origin since the ChCh massacre [in NZ and Australia in particular] is indicative of the process you have described.

              • greywarshark

                Cripes RL. There aren't that many types of men – a change will be back to one of the older types, but with such obeisance to the acceptance of new machinery and technology and precision and efficiency, that anything natural and human will result in dissatisfaction and be described as historic, old system, last century and other epithets.

                This is not my imagination; it can be seen now. People wearing grey and black, buildings and houses painted brown, beige and charcoal; the colours of the interiors of film sets about space travel. The withdrawal of persons as staff making decisions affecting people's lives as in ACC.

                Imaginative, feeling people with kindly impulses. Not to be trusted to keep to the rules. That is more likely to form the basis of the new race of men; just like any authoritarian regime with bigger tech devices and bugger the peeps.

                • Janet

                  Yes, "People wearing grey and black, buildings and houses painted brown, beige and charcoal; "

                  Thats been bothering me for some while. To get grey all the colours are mixed together. Lost colour, lost diversity and difference, lost imagination, lost independence, lost freedoms, lost soul…

              • Robert Guyton

                RedLogix – I don't think we are "sifting at random" nor do I think we are alone in our efforts. There are other living beings with an interest in our succeeding in putting together the puzzle and some of them are pretty smart! If, for example, trees could convey a message to us, through the fruits we eat, the wood we work with, the sound they make in the wind, the patterns they throw onto the macadam, they'd doubtless be nudging us toward a state of realisation that would result in a new, tree-friendly behaviour. Exploring that idea and extensions of it is, I reckon, worthwhile,

              • Stuart Munro.

                The making of the representative for planet 8 is likely to involve some loss of life. And the problem then becomes, how to remain enlightened while Malthusian processes are winnowing the population – there's no easy answer to that one.

                • greywarshark

                  Stuart M

                  "how to remain enlightened while Malthusian processes are winnowing the population" – that's what so many can't cope with.

                  We could move on to practical and moral ways but there is a kink in the pipeline; the main mind pipe is corroded and old, irrelevant matter swirls, catches, and builds into a mass until few new ideas can pass. Like a fatberg.*

                  We have to help those ideas get out and get discussed. Not every one is a goer. And some that are good can turn out badly if not properly implemented with a watcher to ensure that problems are dealt with fairly and quickly.

                  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatberg

                  • Stuart Munro.

                    In my admittedly limited experience, these implementations work in phases. Now we are in the realm of no action, and a proliferation of innovations is highly desirable.

                    Once innovation is the norm, some culling for efficacy and sustainability is called for.

                    Then we reach the production plateau, in which bang for buck tends to predominate, in time, the best being the enemy of the good, the bulk focused methods must give way to long term enlightened best interest adaptations.

                    But for now, we hope to proliferate innovations.

        • Tuppence Shrewsbury 1.4.1.2

          I hadn't. I must admit I'd always wondered about that process though. thanks

        • patricia bremner 1.4.1.3

          Thank you Robert. Lovely.

  2. RedLogix 2

    Joe Rogan with Tulsi Gabbard. Joe has this magical art of drawing people out; it gets more engaging as it goes on.



  3. cleangreen 3

    Finally 'the importance of dental health is filtering through to the Government' that dental care is actually part of our health treatments.

    My Dentist warned me that teeth absess and gum diseases will poison my blood and give me multiple loss of mobility..

    So Government needs to know that if dental repairs are not carried out the gum decay will cause toxic blood poisoning.

    David Clark needs to make dental repair affordable again so the weak, old and all those suffering now are able to have dental repair made available to all.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12229595

    NEW ZEALAND Health Minister David Clark considering dental care report as calls for free treatment grow

    15 May, 2019 5:00am

    • One Two 3.1

      The mouth is the primary point of love and nutrition at the first moments from birth.

      Health and well being begins with what goes into our bodies through the mouth and what goes on inside our mouths

      And what comes out of mouth via the brain.

      Health begins and can be improved or diminished with nutritionally beneficial or detrimental injestion of foods and liquids.

      That is how human beings complex system have evolved.

      That is why good oral care is also important.

      • cleangreen 3.1.1

        Yes One Two,

        Teeth and gum health is more important to our ealth than many seem to think.

        My Dentist is one of NZ's main "holiistic" dentist in the country.

        He tresatrs alll the body systems together so I am bloody fortunate to get him though I have to travel 300kms to get to him he is so worth it.

        After my boating accident I damaged 7 of my teeth when the boat overturned and my face was hit by the side of the boat.

        He treated my health carefully as I have a damaged immune system so he used materials that would not place more stress on mmy immune system.

        The time from the accident to getting to a dentist was tricky as it happend over xmas and the ACC was very slow it establishing the case file so my gums were infected by then so he used his skill to lower the infections and save the teeth.

        It was a learning curve for me as an older 74 yr old.

        • One Two 3.1.1.1

          Good news you were able to locate a holistic dentist who was able to provide necessary care for your circumstances…

          Holistic dentistry is relatively recent and will continue to become standard as newer generations of dental professionals enter the field.

          …And improved knowledge around ingerated (holistic health) squeezes out dental orthodoxy.

          • cleangreen 3.1.1.1.1

            One Two yes Holistic Dentistry is the new model I am so happy to see come our way now as the treatment from my Dentist is so very good compared to the older system of 'drill and fill' that we grew up with.

            My Holistic dentist cares about the patient in a special way that I had never experienced before as he takes interest in the whole health of the patient, that other dentists did not show before.

            He often showed me in photos how my gum infections were leaving and tooth roots were becoming more healthy again.

            Very comforting to know those things to know when you are on the right path again.

            Hope to see more of this care for patient outcome.

            • One Two 3.1.1.1.1.1

              That is great to hear and will have benefits also resulting from your sense of well being as a result..

              Holistic Health.

              As you say…drill fill and the extraction of perfectly healthy teeth is , the past…still practiced…but will regress into obscurity over coming years…

        • JohnSelway 3.1.1.2

          What does holistic dentistry involve? How is it different?

          • cleangreen 3.1.1.2.1

            John See above.

            • JohnSelway 3.1.1.2.1.1

              That doesn't answer anything. What is the process? What tools are used? What medications? How does it differ from regular dentistry?

              You've given broad descriptions but I am curious about what the specific differences are

          • Incognito 3.1.1.2.2

            Possibly like classical dentistry. Drill a hole in your tooth, fill it, make a hole in your wallet, rinse, repeat.

    • greywarshark 3.2

      Dentists have advised me to see the dental hygienist and I thought that it was a bit expensive and for the fussy. They have not given the information that you repeat in your comment Cleangreen. If the reasons and practical advantages are explained it becomes obvious that it is wise to include such visits on the 'maintenance' schedule. I have this problem now and just as a start am going to take small Vit C daily and eat more greens and spend some money on this important procedure.

      • One Two 3.2.1

        oral health care can take various forms..

        Dental orthodoxy is limiting and in many ways has become a failure with new roles such as hygenists are spurious in my opinion…

        In recent times updated knowledge and techniques are coming through…

        Human tooth enamel is made up of compounds for which we can modify or introduce food stuffs specifically to support and maintain, while lowering injestion of those foods and fluids which actively damage tooth enamel..

        Of course there are other impacts on teeth such as clenching and grinding which negatively impact teeth and influence oral health…extractions orthodontics can also negatively impact oral health…

        Brushing techniques, products used to clean can also have adverse effects…

        Warm water with a pinch of salt and 1/4 teaspoon of baking soda rinsed with warm water is beneficial for oral health and is non abrasive on teeth and gums…

        Have a look into eating for teeth and oral health, gw…if you're so inclined…

      • cleangreen 3.2.2

        Greywarshark;

        My infections were so advanced by the time my newly found 'holistic' dentist began work.

        I had seen my Treating MD firstly and was undergiong Vitamin C IV's as my blood test showed that my markers of CRP "C reactive protien" https://www.healthline.com/health/c-reactive-protein – was climbing high showing severe infections were causing "inflamation" from the gum infections, and the Vitamin C IV's were slowing down the infections and joint pains.

        Yes you are so very correct there.

        • greywarshark 3.2.2.1

          Was it you had some chemical 'interaction' some while ago? I know someone commenting here did. If so that would be having an affect.

  4. Herodotus 4

    Interesting comment 50 sec's in " It has made me realise that struggling is the norm" . For me this one line summarises daily living 🙁

    https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/good-sorts-tammy-schurmann-pays-forward-after-selfless-act?auto=6035618083001

  5. Cinny 5

    Is simon ok? First he complains about the cost of fee's free tertiary ed.

    Nek minute, he complains that not enough people have taken it up so the money budgeted for it will be redistributed. This is not a bad thing silly simon, people are still getting fee's free tertiary, and there's also money left over, that's a good thing.

    And now, it appears national are going to come up with their own fee's free tertiary.

    Does he know where he stands on fee's free tertiary?

    Ahhhhh now I get it paula bennet appears to be their spokesperson on said subject, no bloody wonder. Care for an interview/debate on the subject paula? Didn't think so lololzz

    • James 5.1

      Nek minute, he complains that not enough people have taken it up so the money budgeted for it will be redistributed. This is not a bad thing silly simon, people are still getting fee's free tertiary, and there's also money left over, that's a good thing.

      the fact that there is money left over is that it did not deliver it’s desired effect.

      Numbers are down – it’s just a failed policy.

      How is is that a good thing – if it was actually setting out to solve a problem and not just a bite bribe?

      • Sacha 5.1.1

        quote marks are a good thing

      • Robert Guyton 5.1.2

        Plus, money doesn't desire, at least I hope not.

      • Shadrach 5.1.3

        "…it’s just a failed policy."

        Yep, and the list is growing. But not to worry, Jacinda's engaged!

      • Chris 5.1.4

        "the fact that there is money left over is that it did not deliver it’s desired effect."

        Spot the flawed logic.

      • Psycho Milt 5.1.5

        the fact that there is money left over is that it did not deliver it’s desired effect.

        Well, it might show that, I guess. Or it might show that the government budgeted for contingencies, eg the possibility that National's scare-mongering about the policy encouraging hordes of middle-class thickos to descend on the universities turned out to be correct, which it didn't.

        Numbers are down – it’s just a failed policy.

        Please show your working for this answer. The policy was to make it easier for people to attend University, particularly working-class and lumpenproletariat kids for whom fees were a major obstacle. Has it failed in that objective? We don't know from your answer. If overall student numbers are down, where has the fall occurred? For example, if the fall is in full-fee international student enrolments, that's bad news for universities but no reflection on the fees-free policy.

    • BM 5.2

      it appears national are going to come up with their own fee’s free tertiary

      Do you have a link Cinny?

      • Cinny 5.2.1

        I heard something on the wireless yesterday or the day before, will do my best to try and find a link

    • Siobhan 5.3

      This is not a bad thing silly simon, people are still getting fee's free tertiary, and there's also money left over, that's a good thing…

      the point of fees free was to increase enrolments and encourage more enrolments from students from lower socioeconomic households.

      It was a failed policy.

      The main beneficiaries are students who were going to study anyway.

      Most of whom are young people with well resourced families who can afford to study with or without worrying about debt.

      Which just goes to highlight how detached our politicians are from the struggling masses. Young people these days are used to debt, they seem resigned to the concept, the real problem is they simply can not afford to be not working.

      That being said..education should be free. But while we are irrationaly burdened with austerity budgets..maybe that money would be better directed at policies that help strugglers take up training…housing subsidies, free transport etc.

      Its like Kiwibuild..a policy that the strugglers probably thought was going to improve their lot..only to find out it was targeted, by design and or lack of thought, at the happy middle class voter, who was going to vote Labour anyway.

      • Cinny 5.3.1

        I wonder if enrolments have dropped due to foreign student scam awareness?

  6. Incognito 6

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/112711657/waitkere-ranges-reopening-plan-shows-conflict-between-recreation-and-kauri-protection

    Twenty per cent "simply do not believe that humans are the main vector for spreading kauri dieback".

    I wonder how those 20% view Climate Change.

    • vto 6.1

      They would probably have to check with Donald Trump before answering that

      • Incognito 6.1.1

        A simple 3:00 AM Tweet would do. After all, that’s when the mind is at its sharpest.

    • Dennis Frank 6.2

      I'm one of that 20%. My scepticism re the prevalent ideology is due to never seeing evidence presented in the media to justify it, plus media reports that kauri die-back is occurring in trees distant from walking tracks.

      When I lived up there I often walked the Waitakere tracks. Where are the cause & effect linkages explained by microbiologists?? I decided their absence was due to them being non-existent. I could be wrong, of course, but I prefer evidence-based public policy.

      • Andre 6.2.1

        Here's a survey you may want to take a look at:

        https://www.kauridieback.co.nz/media/1387/aerial-surveillance-jamieson-et-al-2014.pdf

        The confirmed dieback is concentrated around walking tracks. Yes, there are a few cases away from walking tracks. The organism is in the soil, and can be spread by vectors other than casual walkers, such as pigs and pig hunters.

        • Dennis Frank 6.2.1.1

          Makes sense. Would be interesting to know the ecosystemic relations of the organism. Foreign invader? Native, but habitat & reproduction enhanced by climate change? I'm keen to have the microbiologists on the case enter the public arena. I know bipartisan govt policy is to muzzle scientists as much as possible, but I believe the public has a right to know. Also, public compliance is more likely if the govt stops treating the public with contempt.

          • Andre 6.2.1.1.1

            Ten years ago when I first started learning about the phytophthora organism causing the kauri dieback, the strong consensus was that it was a very recent introduction. Based mostly on the very narrow genetic profile of all the samples gathered from the widespread locations where it had been found. And that lab testing indicated it actually was much more virulent in significantly warmer environments than where it was actually found in NZ.

            Since then I'm aware of some work suggesting a wider genetic profile and that it has therefore been in NZ longer than originally thought. But the last time I talked to the boffins involved, they were still of the view that the overall evidence still pointed to it being a recent introduction.

            There is a team of boffins that are actively working with property owners that have kauri dieback on their property, as well as working with the various government bodies. I've had a lot to do with them, and always found them very open, helpful and respectful. The biggest issue I've seen is simply under-resourcing, not any kind of info suppression or contempt towards the public.

            • Dennis Frank 6.2.1.1.1.1

              Thanks for that informed appraisal, Andre. Good to know they have made partial progress in understanding the situation. If it gets more virulent in warm conditions, as the lab tests suggest, then global warming makes the spread inevitable and current public policy is futile. No mention of where the organism flourishes overseas?

              • Andre

                Last I heard, no they hadn't identified anywhere overseas hosting the exact same organism. IIRC Queensland kauri host a similar phytophthora, but different enough to be excluded as the source, just like NZ kauri have long been known to host phytophthora cinnamomi (and early reports of kauri dieback were dismissed as being just cinnamomi).

                I wouldn't describe current policy as futile. There is a treatment that helps the trees hold their own. I've treated all mine (48 of them). Prior to treatment, 2 or 3 would die every year on my place, and another 2 or 3 on the adjacent council reserve. In the 2 years since treating mine, none have died, but the 2 to 3 per year death rate on the adjacent reserve has continued.

                It's not a cure, that'll probably have to wait a few decades until we understand stuff like phage treatments well enough to be able to engineer a biological counter-attack on the specific phytophthora causing the dieback.

                • Dennis Frank

                  I'm impressed! Is the treatment similar to vaccination – applied to tree rather than surrounding soil, and are councils and DoC using it also? I haven't noticed media reports on this good news. How does it work?

                  • Andre

                    No, not really like vaccination. The active ingredient is phosphite or phosphorous acid. That's much too simple a molecule to provoke an antibody type response. However, it does seem to reinforce the usual tree response to insult of trying to wall off and self-amputate the part of the tree where the invader is gaining entry. One of the symptoms of die-back is gum bleeds erupting and travelling up and around the tree: on my trees with this, the bleeding and extending up and around the tree has stopped, and there's a lot of fresh bark growth around the bleeds.

                    It's applied by drilling a number of holes around the base of the tree, then screwing pre-loaded spring-activated syringes into the holes. It takes up to 20 minutes for the injection to complete (if it's taking longer, the tree's internal sap pressure is too high and it's going to backflow into the syringe and gunk it up).

                    The avocado industry do this to their trees every year, but it's still being determined how frequently it should be re-applied to kauri.

                    Yes. councils are doing it on their trees and I've heard mention of iwi doing it too. Haven't specifically heard of DOC doing it also, but I'd be surprised if they weren't by now.

                    I suspect there's some reluctance to try trumpeting it. When people hear about it, a common reaction is 'great, problem sorted, we don't need to worry about it anymore'. Which definitely is not the case, the treatment is definitely not a cure. At best it's a limited holding measure that hopefully helps keep the tree alive until an actual cure gets developed.

                    • JohnSelway

                      Oh fuck – not fucking vaccines again!

                    • Dennis Frank

                      Cool, great to get that full explanation published, thanks. Yeah I take the point re public notification & complacency. Kind of ambulance at the bottom of the cliff parallel – best to maximise prevention.

                    • Andre

                      @JohnSelway – sorrrreeeee! Hope it hasn't lit the fuse.

                    • JohnSelway

                      Hopefully we can move on to something easier now like the moon landing or The Illuminati!!!!!1111!!!11!!!! OH NOES

                    • lprent []

                      It is a pity that traveleve succumbed to her illness. We could have restarted the great twin tower collapse debates again…

                      <duck when="now" />

                    • JohnSelway

                      I see a potential fluoride dust up developing…..

                    • JohnSelway

                      " the great twin tower collapse debates again… "

                      Oh god lord no

                    • Andre

                      Oh feck. I thought we'd at least get a break until September, but that comment might raise Paul Ed Jinx Tammy Milly up out of the crypt.

                    • Jenny - How to get there?

                      …..or whether Bashar Assad is a gentle eye doctor.

      • Robert Guyton 6.2.2

        It might be that the mauri of kauri is so traumatised by human behaviour that they've succumbed.

        • Dennis Frank 6.2.2.1

          There's a remedy available: deploy tree-huggers en masse to express their feelings to the tall old ones in the usual touchie-feelie way, but more organised. School outings for that purpose would help. The power of positive thinking ought never to be underestimated…

          • Robert Guyton 6.2.2.1.1

            How many treehuggers do you think there are, Dennis? I'm one.
            edit: and what would you have them express?

            • Dennis Frank 6.2.2.1.1.1

              Their personal feelings. Gaian resilience is too sophisticated a notion for most folks. The organism killing them is as much a part of Gaia as the trees. Biochemical imbalance in an ecosystem is so subtle that only subtle countering influences are likely to succeed. At Findhorn, communicating with the devas worked wonders. I've never heard of similar workings in Aotearoa…

          • Andre 6.2.2.1.2

            Oh fuck no. Given the way the organism is clearly spread by humans inadvertently carrying it, the last thing the kauri need is a whole lot more people travelling from tree to tree hugging them.

            • Dennis Frank 6.2.2.1.2.1

              True. I was being flippant (mostly). However twenty years of science and preventation seem to have made not one iota of difference to the spread, eh? Which suggests soil biochemistry is driving it more than people.

              • Robert Guyton

                There would be no need for people to gather under the trees; they could work from home. Those influences Dennis mentions are effective across time and space, according to the practitioners and the theory.

                • Dennis Frank

                  I've read about that sort of thing in the past. Derives from traditional shamanism, eh? No general rule applies, however, and effectiveness seems to vary according to expertise of practioners, and context…

                  • Robert Guyton

                    Derives from pre-historical human behaviour and knowledge. It's our true relationship with non-human beings, of which trees and soil organisms are part. Shamans do many things; reminding the rest of their group of those relationships is one of their responsibilities.

              • Andre

                There hasn't been twenty years of science and prevention, it was only about ten years ago that it was definitively concluded that kauri dieback was indeed a new problem.

                It's only been in the last couple of years that the first immediately obvious step has actually been taken: stop people walking into infected areas and thereby inadvertently picking up the phytophthora organism and later spreading it elsewhere. And just look at the pushback that simple obvious step has received.

                Up until the closures, the only measures had been pathetic: provision of brushes and spray bottles for people to make token attempts to clean their footwear. Which were mostly ignored.

                Humans are the primary vector, and human behaviour likely to spread the disease didn't get changed, and the disease continued to spread. How does that suggest soil biochemistry is driving it more than people?

        • francesca 6.2.2.2

          Robert up there above
          Ive read that sort of thing too

          We have a concept of insular individualism , when in fact trees are an integrated community

          Clear felling in the past has destroyed the integrity of the underground support systems of Kauri.

          That weakened community is now succumbing

          Back to the old mycelial magic?

          • Robert Guyton 6.2.2.2.1

            Indeed. Leaving the Grandmother trees in situ is becoming de rigueur for forestry companies. They've learned, some of them at least, about the role of the Old trees in supporting vulnerable members of their kind, even keeping cut stumps alive for decades, conveying substances to seedlings to support their establishment and growth and so on. The fungi play a part also, but the inter-tree connections, root-to-root, is also essential and fascinating. The web beneath the surface of the soil is a far more marvellous thing than we have been thinking it to be. Some very old cultures haven't lost their understanding of these things, it's mostly our "historical/civilized" culture that has gone stupid on it.

    • Andre 6.3

      The two instances I've come across have been of&nbsp;the view that &quot;it might be 1080, it might be glyphosate, it might be airplane emissions, it might be … &quot;.

      • Andre 6.3.1

        Comment cleaned up:

        The two instances I've come across have been of the view that "it might be 1080, it might be glyphosate, it might be airplane emissions, it might be … ".

        Originally put the comment in as a reply to the wrong person, then the formatting went bad when I moved it and didn't check it before moving on to another topic.

  7. cleangreen 7

    Hackers now inside "whats App"

    https://www.computerworld.com/article/3394582/the-iphone-users-guide-to-the-whatsapp-hack-attack.html The iPhone user's guide to the WhatsApp hack attack Update your app and iPhone immediately

    • Muttonbird 7.1

      Israel = rogue state

      • greywarshark 7.1.1

        This a.m. at 10.05 a review of book on Benjamin N. Radionz. Sure to be interesting about this everlasting flower.

        10:05 Being Bibi: The turbulent life of Israel's leader

        Israel's leader Benjamin Netanyahu into his fifth term as Prime Minister – but with the threat of indictments hanging over him. What price might his coalition partners extract for their support? And what might it mean for Palestinians living in the West Bank?

        Kathryn speaks with Anshel Pfeffer, a journalist for Haaretz and author of the book 'Bibi: The Turbulent Life and Times of Benjamin Netanyahu' who is in town for this week's Auckland Writers Festival.

  8. Kevin 8

    The USA is one seriously sick country.

    How can the Supreme Court make a legal decision in 1973 and then 40+ years later have that ruling re-litigated and overturned because the make-up of the SC has changed?

    The process has started…

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/may/14/it-goes-after-roe-directly-alabamas-abortion-bill-set-to-go-before-state-senate

    • alwyn 8.1

      I bet you were equally upset back in 1954 when the Court ruled that segregated schools were unconstitutional because they breached the 14th Amendment. That was the Brown vs Board of Education case.

      That decision overturned the 1896 decision in Plessey vs Ferguson which held that segregation was OK because the schools were substantially equal.

      A lot of Southern politicians were just like you. They didn't want the old decision overturned. So welcome back to the fold Governor Faubus. I imagine you have Governor Wallace with you..

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_v._Board_of_Education

      • Dukeofurl 8.1.1

        Its not comparable cases . The obscure current one mentioned has no new evidence to support a change of precedent. The Constitution doesnt mention the 'states immunity' , nor has the legal background changed.

        No clause in the constitution mentions ststes immunity so the conservatives had to invent legal rasoning such as ' at the time of the writing of the constitution it was on their mind' or similar

        What was different for separate but equal doctrine ( it also covered other state services like buses etc) was overwelhming evidence they werent equal and a specific clause of the constitution required 'equal protection'

        • alwyn 8.1.1.1

          Of course they are comparable.

          Kevin's entire argument, as expressed, is "How can the Supreme Court make a legal decision in 1973 and then 40+ years later have that ruling re-litigated and overturned because the make-up of the SC has changed?" You can't plead that anything else is involved since he didn't plead any other reason to be concerned. I understand he is now to late to bring up any new arguments. Is that correct on what can be argued in an appeal case?

          You regard them as different because you approve of one and disapprove of the other. The thing they do have in common is that the composition of the Supreme Court has changed.

          You also consider that the current Alabama case is an obscure one. Like hell it is to the women of that benighted State. We can only hope that the Supreme Court don't back them.

          The really odd thing about the 1896 case is the native states of the Judges who decided it. It was a 7-1 decision and the only 7 who said it was not in breach of the 14th amendment came from states that had been on the Union side. The one who said it was in breach was a former slave-holder from Kentucky.
          By the way “Separate but Equal” was never mentioned in the 1896 decision.

          • Dukeofurl 8.1.1.1.1

            The current case where precedent was reversed was A litigant suing a Minor California government entity in Nevada court

            'Franchise Tax Board of California v. Hyatt'

            Dont know where you got Alabama from, confused maybe

            Yes Plessey didnt mention the name of the doctrine 'separate but equal' That was used used in Brown.

            However they did rule for separate facilities. It wasnt schooling but a state law in Loiusiana requring separate railroad cars for blacks.

            In 1890, the state of Louisiana passed the Separate Car Act, which required separate accommodations for blacks and whites on railroads, including separate railway cars.

            The ed result was that states were free to legalise segregation. The state law used the phase "equal but separate" which has come down through the years but reversed.

            • alwyn 8.1.1.1.1.1

              In case you didn't notice the comment of mine that you were replying to was itself a reply to Kevin. His was at 8 above and mine is at 8.1. Did you see the link that he posted, and did you even look at it? It was Kevin who introduced the subject of the Alabama law. Why are you mentioning, for the first time here, an obscure case in California? I don't know, in the string of comments you are replying to where you got California from. I guess you are simply confused. Here is his link again. It is obviously about an Alabama law, isn't it?

              https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/may/14/it-goes-after-roe-directly-alabamas-abortion-bill-set-to-go-before-state-senate

              Now if you still want to take part in this debate can you please stick to the subject which was the possibility of a Supreme Court reversing a decision by a previous incarnation and reversing of Roe vs Wade.

              That of course simply becomes one about whether the SC should ever reverse a decision. Now if you want to discuss the subject you are welcome but if you are going to bring up other cases where a reversal is possible at least tell us what they are the first time you speak. Just as Kevin did with his case that might reverse Roe vs Wade and as I did where they reversed a case when they ruled on Brown vs Board of Education.

    • greywarshark 8.2

      Yes the experience of rolling back the carpet we all could tread on to now excluding it from many who have to walk barefoot across stony ground is under way. Controls on mercenary behaviour fought for at great sacrifice is being lightly thrown away by the callous and self-interested. 'The mighty tree grows for a thousand years, and is felled in a day.' We will never be able to recover humane measures once they are wiped.

      There has been a gradual loss of integrity and human values and respect that has altered society and washed away the ideas of enlightenment, just leaving the examples of its effect strewn on the beach at high water mark.

      • cleangreen 8.2.1

        Best statement of the day Greywarshark;

        This deserves three smillies. smileysmileysmiley

  9. Dennis Frank 9

    " Maduro's approval ratings hover at around 20%." [https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-47441642] So why are the 80% who disapprove so reluctant to join anti-govt protests? The explanation lies in the regime's use of controlled violence, via deployment of militia groups (rather than troops or police) to lend the regime a veneer of plausible deniability.

    These groups have deep historical roots, detailed in this report from Al Jazeera: https://www.aljazeera.com/blogs/americas/2019/05/venezuela-colectivos-190506163125345.html Here's a report of how they operate:

    "When tear gas and rubber bullets did not seem to deter a group of some 600 government opponents on the Venezuela side of the border in San Antonio, National Guardsmen withdrew and cleared the way for the masked men on motorcycles. Immediately, people began running, terrified."

    "The men fired at the crowd and at the adjacent buildings for at least two hours until the main street leading up to the Simon Bolivar Bridge looked like an abandoned war zone. It's unclear how many people were injured. I saw at least two people being dragged away, one with a gunshot wound to the head, while the masked men refused to let ambulances through."

    "Venezuelan Communications Minister Jorge Rodriguez claimed the armed civilians were "Colombian paramilitaries" – an argument that many on the border didn't buy."

    The regime's chief propagandist pretending the masked motorized shooters were a Colombian invasion force is entertaining, and bound to bring smiles to the faces of Venezuelans everywhere.

    "The opposition-controlled National Assembly has designated these civilian bands as "terrorist groups" that carry out "violent paramilitary actions, intimidation, murder and other crimes" described as "acts of state terrorism". But, despite an international outcry against the use of these groups in recent weeks, Maduro has come out firmly in their defence. And amid the continued attempts by his opponents to force him from office, he has called on the colectivos – without distinction – to take to the streets "to every corner to defend the Revolution"."

    It's a sophisticated mix of control tactics by Maduro. His political support continues to ebb, however. When "a paramilitary group fired live rounds at demonstrators from a government building in the opposition stronghold of Altamira. State police unsuccessfully attempted to confront the "delinquents". The following day, the police director of operations who had commanded the operative was summarily dismissed for interfering with the gunmen." When the state starts eliminating its own enforcers, the end of that state seems inevitable.

    So Maduro's tactics being effective is insufficient. His strategy is too inadequate to succeed in the long term. Partisan thinking isn't in the public interest, and he must rise above those ideological blinkers to win back support in the 80% disaffected majority.

    • adam 9.1

      From the guy who supports the last coup attempt. And actively supports the violent overthrow of a democratically elected government.

      You might want to look to see what the opposition support is buddy, then you might just realise it is a crap situation, made worse by war mongers and imperialist thugs like yourself.

      • Dennis Frank 9.1.1

        Hey dickhead, since I haven't supported any military coup anywhere in my entire life, you know you're full of shit. 🙄

  10. Dennis Frank 10

    "Asked by CNN's Christiane Amanpour about mass shootings in the United States and whether other countries could learn from the actions of New Zealand and Australia, Ms Ardern said it was possible to "draw a line" and ban access to military style semi-automatic weapons and assault rifles. "Australia experienced a massacre and changed their laws, New Zealand had its experience and changed its laws. To be honest with you I do not understand the United States."" https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/389215/jacinda-ardern-on-gun-law-changes-i-do-not-understand-the-us

    Lack of similarity between Australasia & USA derives from an historical factor more influential in mass psychology than the cause & effect relation between massacres and military style semi-automatic weapons and assault rifles. It is the Constitution. It defines US political culture and mass identity.

    For Americans, the right to wear weapons shapes their self-image from childhood. Locked into that 18th-century mindset by the Constitution, they cannot progress. It creates a binding belief-system, and acts as a mental prison. In their primitive form of civilisation, violence is institutionalised by design.

    • RedLogix 10.1

      And deeper than the Constitution, we tend to forget that America as a nation has it's founding origin in a citizen armed revolt against British colonialism.

      • Dennis Frank 10.1.1

        Good point. Although I'd prefer the arch-conservatives to be a little more authentically 18th-century and wear swords as well. Wigs too.

      • alwyn 10.1.2

        You should also note that the people who revolted were the colonists.

        It wasn't a revolt by the American Indians was it? It was by wealthy colonists like Washington, Jefferson, Adams and other gentleman of British descent.

  11. mac1 11

    Clever science and thinking. 46,000 tonnes of grape marc have caused problems in Marlborough.Today this appeared in the media.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/112579373/pacrimenviro-trials-potential-solution-for-marlboroughs-grape-marc-problems

    The solution is to dry the marc to 25% of its original weight. The products are steam and a sultana smelling powder which could be a stock feed supplement, a soil conditioner or made into pellets which can then be a fuel.

    The drying process thereby becomes a self-fuelling process. Presumably the process could take place at the place of crushing, obviating a lot of transport needs.

    In March, another solution was publicised here. More traditional thinking but obviously viable.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/111527346/the-beast-waging-war-and-laying-waste-to-marlboroughs-grape-marc-problem

  12. bwaghorn 12

    @mm .

    Reply functions on the fritz again .

    Considering your kin wiped the moa out you might wont to get off your high horse you angry little man.

    • Robert Guyton 12.1

      Did mm's kin even have horses?

    • marty mars 12.2

      the great mental prowess of the farm jerker exhibit a – a daggy waggy – so cute but keep fingers away cos they bite when ruffled

      • greywarshark 12.2.1

        bwaghorn The colonials made such a big deal out of huia feathers that they monetised it to extinction; the big bird nob having a breeding pair that were to be released in an island off shore, when the PM who was overseeing the transfer and release died, abandoned that. He took them home to his rich patron and greased up to him, by having the last of an extinct bird.

        Lots of this sort of stuff and mm gets to be an angry little (or big or fat) man. It is the emotion that gets us off our backsides and doing something to improve, and makes us all a bit touchy. You are taking steps too – so we all get touchy with each other at times.

        • greywarshark 12.2.1.1

          This music gets me going Carl Orff – O Fortuna

        • greywarshark 12.2.1.2

          The above is I believe, pretty factual. But anyone who knows the more correct factual version is welcome to update mine.

    • RedLogix 12.3

      While I was googling on moa gastroliths earlier I found this article and the interesting idea that Maori hunting may not have been the primary reason for their extinction:

      Maori have wrongly been accused of wiping out the moa, says Mr Platt.

      Once kiore – Pacific rats – arrived moa were on the back foot because their food source of weta and lizards reduced, he says. "Hunting finished them off".

      http://www.stuff.co.nz/auckland/local-news/north-shore-times/660809/Stones-of-the-moa

      Although as a keen tramper in my earlier years I often thought that it wasn't such a bad thing that moa were extinct. surprise

      • Stuart Munro. 12.3.1

        You're missing the main moa predator there – sandflies. Trampers need to know why the little buggers are so hungry.

        • RedLogix 12.3.1.1

          It's possibly the other way around, the sandfly is there to protect these places from hordes of people. Although over time I got quite used to them and they stop bothering you much.

          What are a total pest are the 'no-seeum' sandflies that are common around water in Queensland. You can barely see them, you don't feel their bite, but reaction can last days and is intensely itchy. One night we got hammered by them and had to make a fast trip to the nearest chemist about 2 hrs drive away for some anti-histamine. The lass behind the counter could scarcely contain her smirk as we entered the shop …blush

      • Robert Guyton 12.3.2

        Moa would have, I think, made tramping easier, through their browsing habits, clipping and pruning the shrubby layers like a parkland. Perhaps. Maybe.

        • RedLogix 12.3.2.1

          Yes and no. It's also thought that many of our juvenile tree forms and shrub species, the hebe's especially, evolved their divaricating habit (tightly interwoven branches) as a defense against moa browsing that might tear plants with a more normal structure to shreds.

  13. Muttonbird 13

    Cost-cutting to improve quality is the order of day at New Shub. Sounds a bit like the John Key government, doesn't it?

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12231068

    (note this article is not behind the paywall 😆)

    Right at the bottom that old drunkard Bill Ralston says,

    To grow your audience in news, you have to break stories.

    Of course what he meant in these modern times is, "To grow your audience in news, you have to manufacture outrage"

    I’ve always been confused by the contrast between the AM show with its shameless right wing tabloidism, and New Shub 6pm news with the most boring man in presenting, straight-laced Mike McRoberts.

    • greywarshark 13.1

      "you have to threaten to break lefties" – I think that's what he really means.

    • greywarshark 14.1

      I fear that all the goodness of that item has been used up in the headline.

  14. Andre 15

    The 2020 US election could indeed actually be stolen. Here's how Repugs could actually deliver Needy Amin a second term:

    https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2019/05/13/2020-election-contested-donald-trump-226869

  15. Professor Longhair 16

    The Republicans stole the 2016 election. The Democrats' "leadership" has spent two years pushing the fantasy that the RUSSIANS did it.

    No one with a brain believes them.

    Five and a half more years of Trump coming up.

    • cleangreen 16.1

      True that is.smiley

      Hillary used corporate money to set up the "Russia Russia Russia hoax" and it all has now blown up in her wicked face.

  16. Exkiwiforces 17

    Get a load of this article, and the spin for E pollute. I would like to see the long term tend as this is going to get interesting. I never heard of such high pollution levels in Canterbury plains wells before I left CHCH in 1998 and even during my time in the farm/ horticulture Cadetship scheme before the “No Mates Party” stuffed that up along with apprenticeships in the early to mid 90’s.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/farming/112695269/environmentalists-alarmed-but-environment-canterbury-says-water-survey-results-expected

  17. greywarshark 18

    Could be about USA.

    Quote in Robert Goddard's book Sea Change 2000. Good read.

    It has been judiciously observed that a commercial country has more to dread from the golden baits of avarice, the airy hopes of projectors and the wild enthusiastic dreams of speculators than from any external dangers.

    John Miller, An Authentic Account of the South Sea Scheme (1845)

  18. Sacha 19

    Court refuses serial scumbag's latest attempt to try it on:

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12231170

    A "malicious and nasty" blogger, who was convicted of criminal harassment and breaching court orders, has now accused a former parliamentarian of perjury.

    Dermot Gregory Nottingham was found guilty of five criminal harassment charges and two breaches of court suppression orders following a lengthy trial, in which he represented himself, during April and May last year.

    Now, however, Nottingham wants the cellphone records, emails and medical notes of three of his victims. He claims they are guilty of perjury, having testified at his trial.

    Court said no. However ..

    The Solicitor-General has filed an appeal of Nottingham's sentence, arguing it was manifestly inadequate.

    Nottingham, meanwhile, also appealed both his convictions and his sentence.

    @lprent may have thoughts to add, or not.

  19. Jenny - How to get there? 20

    Literal or figurative, who can tell anymore?

    Figurative meat. It’s a thing: Real meat, masquerading as cultured meat, pretending to be real meat.

    Amaze your vegetarian friends. “I can’t believe it’s not meat. I mean literally.”
    (meaning figuratively)

    Just don't tell them. Yes it is.

    Now we really know that the sheep and beef people are in trouble



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