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Open mike 15/06/2019

Written By: - Date published: 7:00 am, June 15th, 2019 - 280 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

280 comments on “Open mike 15/06/2019 ”

  1. Robert Guyton 1

    “It's time for NZ to declare a climate emergency, majority of Kiwis say in new poll”


    Those who were more likely to be against were National Party supporters, men aged 55 and over and New Zealand Europeans. “

    • marty mars 1.1

      Actions are needed – declaring an emergency requires action – I am concerned that this is just a rebranding exercise/

      • Robert Guyton 1.1.1

        In response to my "provocation" to declare a climate emergency, the council has sprung into action, planning and compiling actions to take and those being taken, to try to justify their refusal to declare a climate emergency; the public will want to know what they turned the opportunity down, if in fact they do, and so they're galvanised into action even before the vote. This will have happened with every council that has been challenged to make the declaration. It's a win-win situation but don't tell the "National Party supporting, 55 years and over, European New Zealand males that are the bulk of my council and who statistically oppose declaring a "climate emergency".

        • marty mars

          what emergency things do you think you guys will do

          • Robert Guyton

            Those things already in train, plus others they'll have to consider, having committed to do so. The declaration is more for the public, Imo, that the councillors; it's a statement of intent and inclusion, bringing the councillors out into the light of public scrutiny on this issue, where otherwise they (we – I'm one) make our decisions behind closed doors and minds; we need the close attention and input of the people we serve and this declaration creates opportunities to do just that. The tension that exists now, and there's plenty of that, is working in favour of those wanting action; there's action aplenty as the conservative faction scrambles to justify their unwillingness to take the proactive, progressive path.

            • marty mars

              It might pay to pull the analogy of other emergencies further from what is done there. For instance the emergency provisions for a major weather event, an earthquake.

              I fear the boy who cried wolf syndrome – if emergencies are declared I hope we act like an emergency has been declared otherwise I'm not sure why we would bother.

              • Robert Guyton

                I feel "emergency" in this case is more generic and means "emerging" in; the crisis is emerging and now's the time to face the music, get activated while we still can. Later on, when we're swamped by the effects of the climate, we won't be in as strong a position to do anything bar scramble for our lives. Emergencies like earthquakes, devastating floods, tsunami etc. activate the machinery of immediacy; search and rescue, fire fighters, the military etc; not being asked for with this "climate emergency" movement. I'm curious as to why some people react the way you have, Marty, hearing alarm bells and seeing flashing lights at the word, "emergency", where I hear, "emerging". I'm not being critical of those who do, it's just interesting to compare reactivities.

                • marty mars

                  Yes it is interesting to compare.

                  This is where some of my concerns with the 'window dressing' aspect of declaring a climate emergency. The word emergency gets devalued until it means just the next difficulty. It doesn't mean that – it is an EMERGENCY or it isn't. If it is ACTION immediately is required. If not – I'd say choose a different word to convey the meaning.

                  Bit like saying crusaders meant the crusading spirit – umm yeah nah. Emergency does not mean emerging imo

                  • Robert Guyton

                    It is an emergency, Marty.

                    It may not seem like it to most people, but it is.

            • Poission

              your council withered under toxoplasmosis controlled zombies,to constrain cats adjacent to Omaui conservation estate ,and its globally significant Korero ghecko.


              Korero Gecko (Southland form), Omaui

              • Robert Guyton

                There was no evidence presented, or even mention of any "Korero gecko" at the hearing, Poisson; are you making that up?
                Edit: sorry, I see that you are not.

                • Robert Guyton

                  Ah, my apologies, I see that Tony Jewel (whom I've met) found one. Still, it wasn't mentioned, so far as I know. That's intriguing. The proposal to control cats was contractually reliant upon majority support from the Omaui residents. They demanded otherwise and the proposal was dropped.

                • Poission

                  So you did not think to consider all protected species in the adjacent conservation estate? What a pack of wally's.

                  • Robert Guyton

                    Poisson; you may have missed this part of my response above:

                    "The proposal to control cats was contractually reliant upon majority support from the Omaui residents. They demanded otherwise and the proposal was dropped. "

                    Without the go-ahead from the locals, we could not implement the programme proposed. Wallys, you say, but bound by rules and contracts and respectful of them.

          • Jenny - How to Get there?

            marty mars

            15 June 2019 at 9:31 am

            what emergency things do you think you guys will do

            Blockade this thing, just as activists are doing overseas

            WTF? There’s a giant oil rig on the horizon


            Thursday, 13 June 2019, 8:36 am
            Press Release: Greenpeace


            Greenpeace climate campaigner, Amanda Larsson, says the arrival of the OMV-contracted drill rig contradicts Jacinda Ardern’s declaration that climate change is her generation’s nuclear free moment.

            "This OMV rig is a 34,000 tonne embarrassment. It’s come from Norway – literally the other side of the world – to search for new oil and gas during a climate emergency. I imagine the phrase on many people’s lips right now is probably WTF," she says…..

            …..Larsson says OMV can expect widespread resistance.

            "We’re living through a climate emergency, and people around the world are standing up to the governments and companies that haven’t done enough to respond to this threat," she says.

            …..The arrival of OMV’s drill rig in New Zealand comes as an occupation by Greenpeace UK of a BP oil rig in Scotland enters its third day.

            Greenpeace UK have been served with an injunction as a result. Rig workers attempted to lower the injunction via a bucket and rope to two activists who remain camped on the rig.

            Greenpeace UK has vowed to continue with the occupation, despite the legal action.

            Under laws passed by the last government and yet to be repealed by this one, Protests like those currently underway in the UK against oil exploration rigs are specifically prohibited in New Zealand under the Anadarko Amendment, carrying extremely heavy penalties, up to two years imprisonment, and massive fines of both individuals and the organisations that they might be affiliated to, (like Greenpeace).

            • Jenny - How to Get there?

              Correction: One year in jail

              "It’s outrageous that under the new Labour-led Government, which has committed to bold climate leadership, the oil ministry would consider punishing climate activists using this anti-democratic law."

              "It was bad enough that the previous National Government used these laws against climate activists, but the supposedly climate-friendly new Labour Government shouldn’t be threatening climate activists with $50,000 fines and 12 months in jail for protesting the oil industry."

              …..They face a year in jail and up to $300,000 in collective fines.


              • Jenny - How to Get there?

                One of the reasons give by Green MPs in meetings with activists, as to why they would not be making any moves in parliament towards repealing the Anadarko Amendment, was that it would negatively impact their efforts to achieve consensus over climate change with the opposition National Party.

                Now that the attempt to achieve consensus with the Nats. is behind them.
                In solidarity with their activist base, the Green Party as part of the government, should now be free to raise the issue of repealing the Anadarko Amendment.

  2. Robert Guyton 2

    Pete pulls pin.

    Beige Badger bids bye-bye.


    • Cricklewood 2.1

      It's funny Pete used to drive me mad, but over time they way he got his perspective across improved and I recently rediscovered his blog which I was enjoying reading. A thoroughly decent chap who was put through the wringer by a bunch of numbskulls and im very happy he came out on top there.

      Not everyones cup of tea but one of the good guys if you ask me.

      • Robert Guyton 2.1.1

        Perhaps not as bad as he's painted (beige) and has an eye for the political, but lacks self-awareness, somewhat. I reckon. I'm glad he's stopping; his readers were subtly polluting his soul smiley

        • Cricklewood

          You're probably right Robert, that said… having met you a few times I suspect some of the commenters on The Standard have polluted yours as well.

          • Robert Guyton

            Aha! I'm trying to place you by the tone of your comment, Cricklewood, but I can't quite picture you; no matter, I like everyone I meet, so you must be okay smiley

            Pete's probably okay as well, but I've not met him yet. I'm sure I will though.

            • Cricklewood

              Just another plant enthusiast that has had the pleasure of visiting your forest.

              I have a very similar horticultural philosophy in fact my favorite garden if you want to call it that is a patch of flowering 'weeds' in a little and forgotten (by the council contactor)traffic island. I do love Verbena bonariensis in full flight.

        • Blade

          Didn't Pete give you the boot from his blog after numerous opportunities to not behave in a trolling manner? Or did you eventually crawl away?

    • Incognito 2.2

      I take my hat off to him working a full-time job and running his blog all by himself. That shows commitment, dedication and (self-)sacrifice. In fact, I applaud Pete and I wish him well in his other/new projects. Life is precious and we all need to live it wisely.

  3. Jenny - How to Get there? 3

    “All possible avenues…”

    We’re interested in fixing the housing crisis and we’re interested in all possible avenues.

    Minister of Housing Phil Twyford. June 12, 2019,


    The announcement by the Housing Minister that, we're interested in all possible avenues to fix the housing crisis, is great news.

    The road less traveled.

    Of all the possible avenues available to the Minister, a EMPTY HOMES TAX, like that imposed in Vancouver, will cost the least, and have immediate effect, freeing up tens of thousands of perfectly good vacant properties for renters and buyers.

    • Sabine 3.1

      and please regulate Air B n B as the hotel/motel/bnb they are.

      Can't be that hard.

      • Jenny - How to Get there? 3.1.1

        A good attempt at diversion there, Sabine.

        But it shows that at least you understand the concept.

        • Sabine

          wow…..why thanks.

          no sure why you think this is an attempt at diversion as many of hte empty houses are actually full come the tourist season. So what ever empty housing tax you might levy at them will be offset by gains in the high season especially in high tourists area where locals can't find any rentals as it is easier to rent them a thousand bucks a night when the concert and festival season is high.

          So firstly i agree with your 'empty house tax', i would also like to see a 'second house or millionaires batch tax' and then i would like to have these amateur hoteliers regulated as any industry in this country is.

          But i am greatfull for your gracious and charitable admission that i understand 'the concept'. Bless.

          • Jenny - How to Get there?


            15 June 2019 at 11:34 am

            ….many of hte empty houses are actually full come the tourist season.

            At last count there were over 33,000 empty homes in Auckland. That seems a lot of Air B&Bs. If most of them are 'actually full' during the tourist season, as you claim, then no wonder the hoteliers are moaning.

            And I agree with you, if that is the case, then Air B&Bs, (whether full or empty), should be included in the Empty Homes Tax. Tourists who are passing through have choices. I would rather they stayed in hotels and motels, or a backpackers. Allow Aucklanders the chance to rent or buy these homes.

            I would rather the tourists stayed in the motels, backpacker hostels and campgrounds, after all that is what they are supposed to be for.

    • Herodotus 3.2

      Didn't realise that this govt was so heavily into the possibility of state asset sales and for what ? Privately owned rentals "Government could give developers to build more new rental stock, including the possibility of selling them Crown-owned land with the payment being deferred to a later date."

      So the private sector is the answer not HNZ. Does he not know anything about govt finance. Borrowing for HNZ does NOT increase the deficit. It is balance sheet neutral.

      Here is an alternative view to this


    • Gabby 3.3

      All possible avenues that maintain property values.

  4. Robert Guyton 4

    Invitation to public session of Environment Southland council to support motion to declare climate emergency smiley


  5. marty mars 5

    This is so bad. What utter filth this sad shithead is.

    A volunteer in Tararua who lopped a phallus from a Māori carving with a chainsaw, has gone from hero to zero in the eyes of his community.

    The figure was part of a set of carvings called Te Hononga Maunga, which offered welcome and safe passage to all who hiked along the Manawatū Gorge Reserve walking track.

    But Milton Wainwright, who considers himself a devoted Christian, deemed the statue's penis to be obscene and immoral, so he tried to cut it off with a hand saw in mid-April. It proved difficult, so he returned the next morning with a mini chainsaw and reduced the phallus to sawdust.

    …Wainwright has been banned from the walking track for two years by the Department of Conservation and is to appear in Dannevirke Court in July.


    • Cinny 5.1

      Wow!!!!!! Penis envy?

        • reason

          Brian Tamaki …… the man who gave us the idea that homosexual penisis were part of the reason …….. for the Christchurch earthquakes

          Tamaki knows that generally Muslims are on par with Satan worshipers …. But when standing on the penis,,,,,,,, these blasphemous deniers of the one true messiah have are largely got it right ,,,Brian knows this ….. as God talks to him.

          He remembers, When we as a country walked the talk about " God of nations " ….. the NZ penis police had kept homosexuality as a criminal offense for most of our history ,,,, this unlawfull hardness, or crime against God as Brian knows it to be ,,,, was a jailable offense, that the NZ Justice system kept on its books and enforced … until 1986.

          In that cursed year of 1986, a godless Labour Govt started us on our march towards being the sodom of the south Pacific.,,,, NZ penisis freed from christian Moral restraint , began working against God himself… and his heavenly geological features were used to punish us.

          As Brian has personally been told , If the good lord wanted us to look at cocks we would have them in the middle of our foreheads , and there would have been kingdom dick picks in the garden of eden ,,,,, But we don't , and their wasn't.

          We are lucky to have suffered only one smite so far …. with our mortal dicks in gods face arrogance …. like a hairy mote in his all seeing eye.

          To avert more Gods wrath disasters which are our inevitable wages for sin.,,, Men must stop our tools being the tools of Satan , ,,,…….We must think with our big heads ….. and Vote for Brian …..

          Its as cheap as two ticks and a bit of logic ,,, for god class disaster insurance cover.

          Cover the cock, trust in god …. and vote accordingly.

    • Robert Guyton 5.2

      A similar thing happened here in Riverton where an elderly European New Zealander ex-farmer tore down and chopped-up a large driftwood figure erected in the bed of the estuary beside the town. He felt offended by the arms-spread-wide, caped figure, and took matters into his own hands. When I confronted him, he was upset but took me to the remains of "Ogon" and offered to fix and re-install it, saying he regretted his over-reaction. I could see that he was sincere in his upset and action, but both of us recognised that the problem was the lack of previous dialogue over the expression of culture the driftwood figure represented. The "phallus chopper" of today's story will have acted with sincerity (he kept his work tidy) and the same argument that's made for not growing pumpkins in a community garden because the look to a candle like footballs and will get kicked around, applies here. The same artist who made Ogon, also made a huge moose that stood also in the estuary, until someone broke off its "generous" phallus. The response from the artist was to replace the missing member with a larger one! No one removed that. I expect you'll reply angrily, Marty, saying it's a racist, disrespectful thing, and it is, but it's also that effect I'm describing, imo.

      • marty mars 5.2.1

        I'm sure the person had some ideas when they did it – pretty direct insult – up there with setting fire to a marae imo – being a christian used as an insult to others – pity this still happens

        • bwaghorn

          So people are allowed to Express their culture unless they are Christians??

          • marty mars


            • bwaghorn

              Huh what have you done with the mm that would have abused me . ?

              I'm impressed at you ignoring my baiting.

              But seriously I was hope it might start a conversation about when something is cultural and where the line should be drawn ;

              cultural beliefs vs causing offence.

              • marty mars

                you'd have to add in the complexity of our current situation – the dominance of culture, beliefs such as 'progress' and 'capitalism' and so on. Then that would need to be considered via the context of the situation. Indigenous peoples have been abused and othered by this society – how do we honour our ancestors and the treaties they made from all sides.

                Rule of thumb – if a older, 'whiter' maler type is offended – probably nothing to worry about. If someone is offended by them – big issue simply because of the power imbalance and their absolute domination of society including HOW we can even talk about stuff. 🙂

          • Sabine

            property destruction is now a Christian culture?

        • AB

          There is a history of this 'altering' of cultural artefacts by early European collectors, museums and ethnographers. The explanations range from Victorian prudishness (at which we can now laugh) to a systemic disrespect for cultures deemed to be inferior.

          I imagine both these explanations are true – as are all sorts of muddled mixtures in between. That would seem to explain why it still happens.

          • marty mars

            yes – pretty standard fundamentalist rubbish – patriarchy and christianity are such close bedfellows

            • Robert Guyton

              Patriarchy and primates are closer bedfellows; Christianity doesn't have exclusivity there. I'm for a reversion/progression to a Goddess culture but banging on about the opposite isn't going to progress the issue at all; is that how the Goddess culture would behave?

              • marty mars

                it is your made up story so you tell me – I'd say walk the walk not just talk the talk as general advice though

                • Robert Guyton

                  Okay; no, the Goddess people wouldn't react that way. The image defacer was walking his walk, acting upon his heart-felt belief, I imagine. He's paid the price too and can no longer walk his walk through the forest. Dialogue between him and the sculptor would be favoured by the Goddess people, as a solution to further trouble, but they'd have already had channels of communication in place to prevent the occurence in the first place. I'm not expert on predicting what an invented culture might do, I'm just thinking…

                • Rosemary McDonald

                  it is your made up story so you tell me –

                  Always marty mars you descend into insult. Robert is trying to explain that there are pakeha belief systems that predate Christianity.

                  Many of these belief systems were from cultures who very survival was depended on being able to resolve differences with discussion and a genuine desire to find common ground…not inflaming conflict.

                  Then we'd all sit down and share a goblet of mead….wink

                  These cultures were often pacifist in nature, hence struggled against those who would impose their culture by violence.

                  • marty mars

                    try reading context rosemary – it will save you some anxiety

                    • Rosemary McDonald

                      Explain what you mean by context marty mars…

                    • marty mars

                      "is that how the Goddess culture would behave?"

                      That was robert's question

                      why ask me?

                      If i believe in the Goddess, which I do, and I think Robert knows that, then it is a direct confronting question. If I don't or Robert doesn't know if I believe or not, then it is irrelevant.

                      My response to Robert was related to this context and wasn't a judgment on him or his beliefs at all. AND it wasn't an insult imo.

                    • Robert Guyton

                      I didn't feel insulted.

                  • greywarshark

                    You vent often enough Rosemary and I consider unreasonably though you can justify it yourself. If you can't be positive why don't you take a break instead of tackling other good thinkers on here.

                    • Robert Guyton

                      I find Rosemary's comments to be reasonable, logical and positive and her to be a good thinker; funny ol' world!

            • Peter Christchurh nz

              ALL mainstream religions are patriarchal. None less so than Islam.

              I suppose though that we should show tolerance to those of a religious persuasion, even though they seldom show it to us rational (ie non religious) people. As evidenced by the original subject of this thread.

              • marty mars

                do what you like but don't try to neuter an iwi or group of people especially the indigenous people of this land

                • Peter Christchurh nz

                  I would consider myself to be an indigenous person MM. Are you?

                  Or do you think that you alone should tell me what to say, what to think? That is, to ‘neuter’ me.

                  Sounds a lot like imperialistic dictate to me Marty, regardless of whether or not you are indigenous (and that term is so overused that I seldom use it myself).

                  • marty mars

                    Not really sure what you are getting at there. I was talking about the thing I posted. Didn't mean to upset you or do anything to piss you off.

                    This was what I was thinking about

                    Massey University professor of Māori visual arts and culture Bob Jahnke said both male and female figures with genitalia were powerful and significant traditional symbols in Māori carving.

                    They represent an iwi's mana and the continuation of its whakapapa, every ancestor and every future descendent to ever birth a new generation.

                    Wainwright's removal of the carving's phallus was an insult to Rangitāne so grave that Jahnke felt it himself, even though he was Ngāti Porou.

                    "It's upsetting just to hear about it … it's a symbolic neutering of the whole iwi."

                    Wainwright's actions were an unwelcome throwback to the disrespect Māori culture was afforded in the colonial era – when Christian missionaries used to cut the genitalia out of sacred carvings wherever they saw them.

                    "These instances of missionary prudery, particularly in Northland, almost led to the loss of an entire [traditional] carving style."


                    • Peter Christchurh nz

                      Thanks MM for clarification. Sorry I jumped the gun a little!

                    • marty mars

                      Fair enough mate all good – I have been going hard today so even I am wary of myself 🙂

                  • Robert Guyton

                    I've heard a definition of "indigenous person or native" that grants those titles to anyone who understands the meanings of all the bird-calls of an area.

                    I think that's the best test ever.

                  • greywarshark

                    Peter Ch

                    Indigenous means Maori really I think. If you aren't sure then it could be a good thing to go carefully. As you are no doubt thinking you can't always tell by skin colour or appearance.

                    My sister-in-law had a pakeha father. Years ago in the 60's she was in the Far North and she had to have her baby in the section for pakehas as the Maori women decided she was too white-looking to be with them. But she has a long whakapapa which her husband, a pakeha, carefully drew up for her noting all the tupuna down.

              • Gabby

                None LESS so peetee?

          • RedLogix

            Rubbish, there is plenty of European art with full frontal male nudity, Michealangelo's David being the most obvious one that leaps to mind. The difference being that in most cultures a fully aroused erection is generally considered offensive, and usually illegal, to parade in public.

            Rightly or wrongly that's what this guy was specifically objecting to. If it was a live male standing there in the same condition, the police would eventually turn up to deal with him.

            On the other hand this is art, and art has different boundaries, especially in a gallery or private setting. I’m guessing that the specific idiom of this style may well present the penis in this fashion. Personally I'd cheerfully tolerate this carving because it's not really harmful and it would be disrespectful to damage it. That's what tolerance means, giving each other space to be different even if you're a bit annoyed or offended.

            Just reflexively blaming patriarchy and christianity is simplistic; plenty of religious people would have walked past this carving and not felt any need to take a chainsaw to it.

            • AB

              RL – at no point did I mention, let alone blame, patriarchy or christianity. These are large, slippery concepts I steer clear of. I simply pointed out a history of European (mostly Victorian) collectors and ethnographers altering indigenous art in this way. To me it seems implausible that a systemic disrespect of a culture deemed to be inferior doesn't at least partially underlie such actions in the past and the present.

              • marty mars

                Pretty common – people just want their families reunited.

                Rapa Nui leaders will introduce their visitors to their culture – but they also want to talk about the possible return of the world-famous statue that has stood in pride of place in the museum’s Wellcome gallery for the last 150 years.

                “This is no rock,” said Carlos Edmunds, the president of the Council of Elders, of Hoa Hakananai’a, a four-tonne lava rock sculpture carved by the ancient inhabitants of Easter Island that has been kept in the British Museum for the last century and a half. “It embodies the spirit of an ancestor, almost like a grandfather. This is what we want returned to our island – not just a statue.”


            • Anne

              … there is plenty of European art with full frontal male nudity.


              • RedLogix

                Very droll. laugh Look at the date on it …1980. I wonder if it would be published these days?

            • Robert Guyton

              Something to hang your hat on.

            • Sabine

              mind if he only objected to the hanging male genitalia (c he could have carved a fig leave, or cut one out of fabric and put that over the object of annoyance and made his statement.

              but to take a saw? and come back? and pretend he did not do damage? after he was told to stay away.

              that is literally just some fuckwit deciding that he knows best.

              Also, i would like to point out that until Adam ate the apple (and really i dispute that a. the snake told him so, and b. Eve is resposnsible for his lack of self control) he ran around naked in paradise, erection and all.

            • Muttonbird

              You certainly can blame the conservative end of patriarchy and christianity for this kind of outdated and dangerous thinking.

              Conservatism holds the world back in so many ways.

            • McFlock

              The statue didn't have an erection.

              It had a penis, hanging down, of a size that was in the bounds of normal proportions.

              The guy is a much bigger dick than anything attached to the statue.

      • Rosemary McDonald 5.2.2

        Thank you Robert.

        Betcha marty mars will still choose cultural outrage over understanding.

        Poor old bugger has been banned from the track he has worked so hard on…punishment enough without the utter filth this sad shithead …

        Bit OTT there?

        Nobody died.

        • marty mars

          nice – maybe try to get up to speed before displaying your ignorance eh

          • Rosemary McDonald

            ? What did I miss?

            • marty mars

              PM explained it well below as quoted

              "Old, White, Christian man has no idea why mutilating a statue of Rangitāne's ancestor would offend local Rangitāne. Or, to put it another way, elderly racist explains NZ history in a single sentence."


        • Robert Guyton

          I agree, Rosemary, that the epithet Marty used is way OTT. I'd save that for someone who's action is more serious than this one. The sculpture can be repaired, the cultural divide bridged through dialogue and the perps right to walk the track restored, without the outrage. It's natural for many to feel blood-boiling outrage, initially at least, but nurturing it, embedding it into local folklore is the stuff of feud and war.

          Let's grow up, together.

          • marty mars

            you have zero idea

            PM summed it up

            "Old, White, Christian man has no idea why mutilating a statue of Rangitāne's ancestor would offend local Rangitāne. Or, to put it another way, elderly racist explains NZ history in a single sentence."

            Same as desecrating tombstones or Buddha statues but not here because it is only the maari that are moaning ffs

          • Rosemary McDonald

            Ah, but Robert, there's a pot that demands stirring.

            This old bugger will be dead soon, like all of his cohort, and perhaps his archaic notions will die too?

            In the meantime, as you say, there are much better ways to bridge the divide without returning the unintended insult manyfold.

            (The real interesting aspect of this story is the fact that old Milton owns the Woodville Organ Museum….am I the only one to appreciate the irony?)

            • Robert Guyton

              The Woodville Organ Museum Society has suffered a serious drop-off of membership lately…

              • Sabine

                actions have consequences. And being a bigot, even with seriously held religious believes still makes one a bigot. And that guy is a bigot. His culture is all fine and dandy and other cultures need to conform to his thinking.

                Maybe being a closet minded self absorbed holier then thou geezer does not inspire others to come to his museum.

                What if someone took offence to hymn singing and organ music and took an axe or electric saw to one of these and said 'I hold a sincerly held believe in Deity XYZ and am offended by organ playing and thus felt the need – despite being told to stay away – to destroy the object of my offense?

                What if we all just started to destroy things that we took offence at and basically blamed our sincerely held believes in what ever deity we like?

                Or are religious and cultural believes only something for christians and respect for other cultures and depictions of said cultures is only for others but not christians?

                And is property destruction now a sincerely held religious believes and whose sculpture would Jesus destroy and disfigure?

                • Rosemary McDonald

                  He is paying the dearest of prices Sabine…being banned from the place he loves and protects.

                  We all know he shouldn't have done it and how it points to his age and ignorance.

                  We all have things we simply won't tolerate even if we are wrong in our opinion….like you telling the mum with the child recovering from chickenpox to fuck off out of your shop….and that is your territory and you believe you have the right to judge.

                  Likewise this guy. He has poured his heart and soul into that place and to him a oversize dick is an anathema in an environment designed to give families time in nature.

                  So he behaves like a dick….

                  And marty mars behaves like a dick and pours utter filth this sad shithead into the mix.

                  And the dicks win.

                  Long live the dicks!

                  • Sabine

                    you know what, actions have consequences and i reserve pity for those who deserve it and this geezer deserves none.

                    As for the rest, i agree with Marty Mars, and frankly i believe that Marty Mars was rather constrained and polite. Personally i would have added 'penis envy'.

                    As for dicks, there is nothing wrong with them, some are attached to men who know how to use them well and pleasurable and some only use them to piss around leaving nothing but puddles of filth behind for others to clean up.

                • Robert Guyton

                  The tables in the temple?

                  • Sabine

                    He threw over the tables of the money lenders. They got to leave with their money and their ledgers to conduct business elsewhere.

                    What did he disfigure? What culture did he disfigure? And is money lending in a temple the same as a guardian – a respected figure of the past – at the beginning of a walking track?

                    Try again Robert.

                    • Robert Guyton

                      It was a light-hearted comment, Sabine. I suspect your deep-held Christian beliefs are impassioning your comments here; all good, they should. I wonder what Jesus would have done, faced with a sculpture like the golden calf? After all, the calf was important to those who defied it. I reckon he'd at least have tipped it over, if he could.

                    • Robert Guyton

                      " And is money lending in a temple the same as a guardian "

                      Well, very similar in a way; Mammon was certainly often sculpted, highly regarded and representative of those who worship money, so, yeah…
                      Edit: earlier, you said; ” His culture is all fine and dandy and other cultures need to conform to his thinking.”
                      Jesus rated his culture most highly and believed other cultures needed to conform to his thinking, surely?
                      Bear in mind, I’m with Jesus on his culture and table-turning actions. Not biblically-inclined, me, but I recognise feistiness when I see it.

                    • Sabine

                      Robert….Mammon was certainly often sculpted, highly regarded and representative of those who worship money, so, yeah…

                      But then he did not disfigure a sculpture of Mammon, but he trhew out the lenders of money who charged interest. Something that by the jewish faith is a big no no, also in the biblical faith, and the islamic one……..:)

                      And lets say our property destroyer Jesus goes to the council and talks about how Mammon and the golden calf are all ok and such but their balls need to be cut off as he takes offense not at Mammon or the golden calf but the balls.

                      And the council says….not so fast my man, this is god and good balls n all.. What should the council do if the property destroyer goes and gets at mammon first with an axe, and then with a chain saw – not to cut down mammon or the golden calf but only to cut down their balls as that is what he is taken offense too.

                      I am done. This guy is no more and no less a criminal then every under aged tagger or sprayer that gets done in by the police for 'willful property destruction' and / or defacing of a public artwork/property. He should be fined at a minimum $ 2000 – as would any tagger, he should get community service, and community detention.

                      I am so tired of men defending their action with the old excuse of 'i did not do it' it was Eve, the snake, t'was GOD who told me! But not me. I am just the tool, not the brain. So fucking tired of that bullshit.

                    • Robert Guyton

                      Sabine; I can't for the life of me find where the chainsaw wielder said,

                      "i did not do it' it was Eve, the snake, t'was GOD who told me! But not me. I am just the tool, not the brain." or even intimated that God told him to do it or excused him for his actions; I just can't find that anywhere, though you seem to know where it was stated.

                      "Milton Wainwright, who considers himself a devoted Christian, deemed the statue's penis to be obscene and immoral,…"

                      Even this, while irksome, doesn't say what you claim was said.

                      Am I losing my touch? Are my powers of search failing?

                      Milton Wainwright also deems himself an organ restorer; perhaps his community service could centre around his talents, rather than extracting penance from him.

                  • Sabine

                    "Milton Wainwright, who considers himself a devoted Christian, deemed the statue's penis to be obscene and immoral,…"

                    He did not say " I am offended at this display of male nakedness in a public setting'. He used his 'christianity' as an excuse. Its not him, it is only because he is a christian. Nothing to do with him, all to do with his indoctrination and the very toxic body issues that comes with the territory of nudity is bad, sex is bad, sex only good if for procreation, nudity bad…….male erections bad, male sex hanging bad, male naked bodies bad…..

                    So he uses his indoctrination as a christian as an excuse for destroying public property and to get a 'get out of jail' card cause he is a good christian who could not help himself and had to destroy this piece of public property because it 'offended him and it is immoral.

                    Can you please explain to me how your genital is offensive and immoral? Can you explain why it would be offensive and immoral. And could you explain how this might fuck up little boys growing up with the believe that the male sex is offensive and immoral.

                    So yeah, he did not do it, it is his Christianity that did it. 🙂

              • Rosemary McDonald


              • In Vino

                Lovely double-entendre there Robert.. I think you deserve at least one acknowledgement.
                Edit – coming in late, I clicked on reply to see just how far down my reply would pop up. (This can be a problem..)
                Sure enough, it came out miles below…
                I was referring to your pun on the drop of membership. It put a smile on my face!

                • Robert Guyton

                  Thanks, Vino. With your appearance I felt the urge to weave "cooper's droop" into the thread, but stopped short, knowing the difference between beer and wine.

              • gsays

                I'm neuter this pun lark.

    • Milton Wainwright, who considers himself a devoted Christian, deemed the statue's penis to be obscene and immoral…

      Psycho Milt, who considers himself a devoted atheist, deems crosses on churches and other displays of religious symbols to be obscene and immoral, but somehow manages to restrain himself from unilaterally acting to remove them – because other people are entitled to their beliefs. This prick should be up on vandalism charges. [EDIT]: I see he’s to appear in Dannevirke Court, so presumably has been charged.

      "I never dreamt the Māori would be so offended…" says Wainwright.

      Old, White, Christian man has no idea why mutilating a statue of Rangitāne's ancestor would offend local Rangitāne. Or, to put it another way, elderly racist explains NZ history in a single sentence.

      • Anne 5.3.1

        I wouldn't deem crosses on churches and other displays of religious symbols as obscene and immoral. Rather… a reminder of a nice fairy tale I believed in when growing up – like Santa Claus, elves and fairies at the bottom of the garden and wicked witches.

        …to put it another way, elderly racist explains NZ history in a single sentence.

        Well said.

        • Robert Guyton

          A cross, representing a device of torture and killing, "not obscene"?

          • Sabine

            In my ex convent the nuns saw it as the symbol of liberation from the eternal hellfire and the love of god.

            go figure.

            • Robert Guyton

              I understand that, Sabine. Perhaps the contradiction would be more obvious if Jesus had been guillotined, or shot. Wearing a miniature of either of those death-dealing technologies around your neck, or sculpting them and putting them atop your church's spire might be too … revealing, don't you think?

              • Sabine

                Personally i abhor the imagery of the cross and find it the poster image of the patriachy. Better behave, see what this God did to his own son, whats he gonna do to you if you don't behave properly….an some men then get to decide what properly is to you, or to me or you to others.

                God has his son killed in the most reprehensible way, the most painful way, the longest way even (and yes i thought long and hard about how long it would have taken his body to rip off the nails that held him up there – another discussion with Mother Superior) and thus my conclusion that God is a sadist. And thus my conclusion that many that claim this god as theirs and the only true arbiter of what is moral, what is decent of what is good are equally sadist. Not outwardly, not everyday, but hey if that women has a pregnancy that is unwanted …….its her punishment for having sex, if that man is ill it must be punishment for something, if that person has no job it must be punishment for this or for that and so forth. A bit like this geezer that in the name of his god gets to decide what is art, what is culture, what is moral, what is decent, and everyone else be damned ….. and oh my gosh, i would have never dreamed for them to be that offended….cause i did not even think about that for one minute all i thought about is my own righteous indignation of something i don't understand and don't want to understand.

                • Robert Guyton

                  "…in the name of his god gets to decide what is art, what is culture, what is moral, what is decent, and everyone else be damned ….. and oh my gosh, i would have never dreamed for them to be that offended….cause i did not even think about that for one minute all i thought about is my own righteous indignation of something i don't understand and don't want to understand. "

                  Aren't these also the "thoughts" of the artist?

                  • Sabine

                    nope the artist in this case depicted an ancestor. An image as they do in their art. The same way we play our music, build our buildings, paint our pictures and create our sculptures. And would we not be very upset if someone took offesne at Davids balls and cut them off in the name of some god?

                    Because that artist, did not cut down one of the organs in the museum of the old man, did not belittle his believes, did not desecrate what for the old man would be a sacred thing.

                    The artist was commissioned to an artwork, presenting local iwi, an artwork of protection, of good fortune etc, and this artwork was conceptualised, presented, discussed and then agreed upon. And i feel fairly certain about that aspect of public art as i did go through that process on more then one occasion with the Auckland Council, Wellington and overseas.

                    Calls for submission

                    'Submissions entered

                    Submissions discussed, discarded, choosen

                    Final editing and touches discussed and agreed upon for the final artwork

                    artist creates artwork

                    artwork gets installed

                    public either hates or loves

                    god has got nothing to do with it. God is simply an excuse of people to blame someone else for their actions or the lack there of.

                    • Robert Guyton

                      "public either hates or loves "

                      Or couldn't care less. This guy hated and expressed his dislike with vigour. He didn't chop the whole figure up, interestingly, making me think his action wasn't racist or religious, it was Freudian.

                    • Sabine

                      @ Robert ……it was Freudian

                      indeed it was, and that is why he is a wanker and now a criminal in the eyes of polite society. No matter how much he wants to blame god for him being an old fool with a certain lack of respect for the property and the work of others. charge him, fine him, lock him up ( ancle bracelet at home)

                    • Robert Guyton

                      Did he blame God? I missed that. I don't like what he did but neither do I respect knee-jerk reactions that match his disfunction (unless they're consciously funny). There are ins and outs of the argument, and they're fun to explore, but from a distance, we should be able to relish the discussions and differences, along with the prejudices and bias we hold ourselves. If we all hold conviviality high in our list of outcomes, we'll explore further and deeper, have a more enjoyable time and approach the un-achievable – truth!


      • RedLogix 5.3.2

        When some Maori used a chainsaw to kill the summit tree of Maungkiekie at least they knew it would offend lots of people.

        • marty mars

          You should try to argue the point not bring in bias imo

          This was an ancestor – if someone cut your jesus's dick off, on the cross on your church altar, would you be so flippant?

          The difference is this wasn’t a ‘disputed’ character not related to you – this was an ACTUAL ancestor and guardian for the people there.

          • RedLogix

            It was a SYMBOL for an ancestor and guardian, as was the tree on Maungakiekie a symbol to a lot of Aucklanders. The carving was not just any old piece of decorated wood, nor was that tree.

            This doesn't take anything away from the importance and value these symbols have, if anything while the body is emphemeral the symbolic can be very enduring.

            • marty mars

              No it wasn't a symbol – try a different lens from the usual patriarchal, 'white' Christian perspective – open your mind and your eyes fella. There are many many ways of being totally alien to your way of thinking – that is your deficit not the other peoples.

              • James Thrace

                Every time I read your tit for tat with RL, MM, I get the impression you stir shit for the sake of it.

                RL wasn't saying that the carving was a mere symbol. He was saying that it is a symbolic representation of the whakapapa and kaitiakitanga of the Rangitāne iwi. You seem to have misinterpreted that to mean RL states it as a symbol, in the same manner that a statue of Baal is a symbol.

                It seems to me here the only deficit is yours in terms of being so hung up on particularised definitions of words instead of appreciating the context in which they're put. Case in point is the fact RL highlights the body is ephemeral but symbolic can be enduring.

                Just like Nelson in Trafalgar Square is a symbol, so too, is this statue a symbol of the whakapapa to Rangitāne.

                The tree on Maungakiekie was a representation to Aucklanders of what One Tree Hill was. As someone who grew up in the shadow of that tree, it wasn't a symbol, but merely a physical representation of the European name ( which ignored the fact that hill used to be covered in trees)

                • marty mars

                  your impression is just that – an impression and not related to reality james

                  • James Thrace

                    Impressions come from reality.

                    My reality is different to yours. However the general tenor and tone of many of your comments towards others on this site makes it for a less than enjoyable experience.

                    It is readily apparent when you don't want to, or wilfully, ignore others realities or perception of things and spend your time denigrating others simply because the way people explain things doesn't fit in with how you would explain it.

                • Sabine

                  not so fast


                  The Māori name Maungakiekie means "mountain of the kiekie vine".[2] Māori also knew it as "tōtara that stands alone".[3]


                  When Auckland was founded as a colonial town a tree stood near the summit which gave the hill its English name. Two accounts identify it as a pōhutukawa (Metrosideros excelsa).

                  This tree was cut down by a pākehā settler in 1852, in an act of vandalism in one account,[21] or for firewood in another.[3]

                  It seems likely this was a different tree from the tōtara (Podocarpus totara) which, as a sacred tree, had given the hill one of its Maori names.

                  A radiata pine was planted in the 1870s to replace the previous tōtara .[22] John Logan Campbell repeatedly tried to grow native trees on the hill's summit, but the trees failed to survive – with only two pines, originally part of a shelter belt for the native trees, surviving for long. However, in 1960, one of the two was felled in another attack,[3] possibly for firewood.[citation needed]

                  disclaimer, a long time ago i organised the outside refurbishment of the Start Dome including the painting of the murals on the front of the building. As such i was tasked to co-ordinate with Iwi, Resident Association, Business Association, Heritage, Council and every other group that had claims. It took us over three years to raise the funds, get people to agree on color schemes, on the mural art work to be painted and such.

                  • James Thrace

                    I stand corrected. I was labouring under the knowledge that Maungakiekie was once bush clad. Perhaps it was before it was turned into a pa site and the single tree was left for some unknown reason.

                    • Sabine

                      my understanding is that the top of the hill is not good dirt to grow much.

                      The only reason i know about this is that at the time when we discussed all aspects of the area around the Star Dome to be friendlier to the public and especially children (there is a play ground right by the building) we thought that it should be planted in kiekie.

                      Anyways, it was a interesting project and a very nice glimpse into Aucklands colonial and pre colonial history.

                    • Brigid

                      I think that it's not that the dirt doesn't grow much but wind exposure is too great for saplings to survive. Twas obvious how exposed it was by the lean that the last pine tree developed. Incidentally that, (where trees have a noticeable lean) is an indication of a good site for a wind mill. 🙂

              • RedLogix

                I've been in enough marae to understand the lens you are using. I've seen a photo fall from a wall and it was quietly mentioned that maybe this long dead person was saying something. At one level everyone knew it was a photo, but on another everyone acted as if it was the real person.

                This carving is a piece of wood; it's not the literal physical body of Rangitane. It embodies his spirit. That's what I call symbolic, exactly as when Christians act as if wafer bread and wine are the body and blood of Christ. It embodies his spirit. The Maori world view definitely places more emphasis on this idea than is common in our excessively materialistic modern world, but it's wrong to think it's alien to us.

                You might want to climb down off that cultural superiority horse of yours and settle. It's a nice day out.

                • Robert Guyton

                  The appendage can be replaced. In fact, will be replaced, as the figure is held in such high regard. Then someone else might cut it off. Such is the world where tit-for-tat rhetoric and action reign.

                  • Sabine

                    well then that person too should be banned for life from that track (as should that geezer)

                    that person then too should be charged with willful property destruction, fined, and if repeated send to prison.

                    I mean this is what we do to taggers. But then they are not old white men who can't imagine that someone would be offended if they destroyed their property, their art, their cultures depictions of ancestors and holy spirits.


                    It’s illegal to “damage or deface” any building or other structure (a bridge for example) by writing, drawing, painting, spraying or etching on it, or by marking it in some other way. This offence also covers tagging roads, trees or other property like trains, cars and yachts.For this offence you can be fined up to $2,000, or given a community-based sentence, or both. “Community-based sentences” include community work, supervision, intensive supervision and community detention (with community detention you’re confined to your home under electronic monitoring for up to 12 hours a day). (These sentences are explained in the chapter “The criminal courts”, under “Sentencing”.)

                    His little comment about what would Jesus destroy and i could have never dreamed….is literally whooops you mean i can't get away with this shit anymore?

                • marty mars

                  "You might want to climb down off that cultural superiority horse of yours and settle."

                  Lol yes tough when you have to see things from a different perspective – might help you grow a bit.

                • Gabby

                  Asserting the sacredness of physical objects seems pretty materialistic.

        • Muttonbird

          (Mike Smith's) action, driven by his frustration at the Government's fiscal envelope – limiting Maori treaty settlements to $1 billion – led to his arrest for "interfering with a tree without resource consent". He was convicted and sentenced to nine month's periodic detention.

          Does the same fate await our prudish old fossil, Milton Wainwright?

          • marty mars

            yep the tree was incidental to the highlighting of the injustice but dims won't see that through their perception of reality and their bias.

            • Muttonbird

              One wonders just what Milton was protesting. Turgid penises?

              • Robert Guyton

                I wonder, did he take it home with him?

                Is it now proudly displayed on his mantelpiece.

                Does his wife know about his new hobby?

                Will we soon see it on Trade Me?

        • Psycho Milt

          When some Maori used a chainsaw to kill the summit tree of Maungkiekie at least they knew it would offend lots of people.

          And it's instructive just how outraged some people were at that relatively trivial level of offence against Whitey's culture. Imagine if those guys had done something seriously offensive…

      • Robert Guyton 5.3.3

        At least he recognises the need to write the word, “Māori” using a macron over the “a”.

        The world's changing!

    • Sabine 5.4

      what a fucking wanker.

      • OnceWasTim 5.4.1

        "what a fucking wanker.", What a fucking liberty even.

        Sometimes it's the simple messages that weigh the most eh? Probably the best summary of all the above.

    • Rosemary McDonald 5.5

      What utter filth this sad shithead is.

      So, to put the action of old Milton into some kind of perspective marty mars…can you string together a few words of invective for this guy…


      • marty mars 5.5.1

        why don't you do it if you want – that's called doing your own dirty work. I'll stand on what I say, will you?

        • Rosemary McDonald

          He aha te mea nui o te ao

          He tangata, he tangata, he tangata

          The response to the crime has to be proportional.

          Save the nasty invective for those who warrant it.

          • marty mars

            lol – he's not the people – the carving is. He cut the penis off thus cutting the people off, destroying them, nullifying them (whether you like or believe it or not) – or at least attempted to. I feel sorry for him too – sorry that he has blown everything because of his hubris and arrogance. He fucked up and deliberately hurt many people. Cry your tears for that guy but I'm not going to.

    • Gabby 5.6

      Willywaving never made me feel particularly welcome.

  6. johnm 6

    Genuine court of justice or political case? – John Pilger on Assange extradition

      • Brigid 6.1.1

        "The Podesta emails exposed donations of millions of donations from Saudi Arabia and Qatar, two of the major funders of Islamic State, to the Clinton Foundation. It exposed the 657,000 dollars that Goldman Sachs paid to Hilary Clinton to give talks, a sum so large it can only be considered a bribe. It exposed Clinton's repeated mendacity. She's caught telling the financial elites that she wanted to open trade, open borders and believed Wall Street executives were best positioned to manage the economy. A statement that contradicted her campaign statements.

        It exposed the Clinton campaign efforts in to influence the Republican Primaries to ensure that Trump was the Republican nominee. It exposed Clinton's advanced knowledge of questions in a Primary debate. It exposed Clinton as the principal architect of the war in Libya, a war she believed would burnish her credentials as a Democrat candidate.

        Journalists can argue that this information, like the War Logs provided to Wikileaks, should have remained hidden. That the public did not have the right to know. But they can't then call themselves journalists

        Wikileaks has done more to expose the abuses of power and crimes of the American empire than any other news organisation. In addition to the War Logs and the Podesta emails it made public, the hacking tools used by the CIA, National Security Agency and their interference in foreign elections, including in the French elections, it disclosed the internal conspiracy against the British Labour Party leader Jeremy Corbyn by Labour Members of Parliament."

        "We must build popular movements. Force the British Government to halt the extradition and judicial lynching of Julian. We must build popular movements to force the Australian Government to intervene on behalf of Julian.We must build popular movements to reclaim democracy and the rule of law.

        If Julian is extradited and tried, it will create a legal precedent that will terminate the ability of the Press to hold power accountable.

        The crimes of war and finance, the persecution of dissidents, minorities and immigrants. The pillaging of the eco-system and ruthless impoverishment of working men and women to swell the profits of corporations and consolidate global oligarchs total grip on power, will no longer be part of the public debate.

        First Julian, then us"

        Chris Hedges.

        A former foreign correspondent of the New York times, Chris writes a regular column in online magazine Truthdig.

    • bwaghorn 7.1

      You got slushies what more could you want??

      Isnt garner the most cynical grotty little twerp .

      • Puckish Rogue 7.1.1




        Well actually better rosters, more resources, staff retention and more staff overall would be better than a pay raise (I mean I'm not going to turn down a pay raise but if it was up to me that's what I'd be pushing for…)

        • Rosemary McDonald

          Puckish Rogue…we watched the Broadmoor doco you recommended the other day.

          Surprising amount of hope amid the deep suffering.

          Judging by the number of residents who had grown up in foster care it is obvious, in the light of recent reports of Oranga Tamariki's outrageous uplifts, that the downstream adverse effects of being 'taken into care' are universal.

          Can you see a time where such a facility would be built here, and would you consider working in such a place?

          • Puckish Rogue

            It was certainly interesting

            Probably not, a lot of people on all sides of the political spectrum would see it as "locking them up" Lake Alice-style so would probably oppose it plus it'd cost a stack load to set up and it certainly wouldn't be a vote winner, unfortunately

            Depends on the location, we like where we live so we'd prefer not to move but if it was close by (maybe a repurposed Hillmorton) then I'd consider it

        • Ed1

          "Well actually better rosters, more resources, staff retention and more staff overall would be better than a pay raise"

          I don't know about rosters, but recent actions by government and the terms of the agreement cover at least some of the other items – all of which may improve rostering problems. One issue that teachers will need to address themselves is that there are quite a few teachers who were trained since, or only shortly before the 'so-called "National Standards". They increased workload with a myriad of largely meaningless statistics, but if that is what you have been trained to do and are not aware of alternatives some teachers / team leaders will still insist on that activity. Schools need to address that issue themselves.

          • Gabby

            There' a whole Ministry full of smooth arses whose existence is justified by the amount of work they impose on the peasants.

    • AB 7.2

      The most interesting thing about that 'piece' is that Garner doesn't seem to be able to write complete sentences. Or at least, that it doesn't come as naturally to him as short, over-emphatic ejaculations. You have to wonder about the quality of the underlying cognitive processes…

    • Well, duh. Of course forming unions and striking for better pay and conditions works, that's why employers and their political representatives are so energetic in combating unionisation of the workforce.

      • McFlock 7.3.1

        Didn't I read recently that Treasury had also rejigged their projections and decided the surplus would be a bit larger than previously calculated?

        That might have helped, too.

  7. Fireblade 8

    David Seymour wants to attract White Supremacist voters.

    He also wants to repeal parts of the Human Rights Act to protect Nazi and racist hate speech.


    • McFlock 8.1

      No, he just doesn't want to stop them voting for him. If keeping white supremacists out of jail for being all white supremacisty gets him white supremacist votes, apparentloy there's nothing he can do about that.

  8. halfcrown 9

    Johnathan Pie's take on the Tory leadership race in the UK

    Fucking brilliant and so true.


  9. Andre 10

    That feeling when you really want to pick a hot fight with Iran and attacks on shipping start to look like a pretty good pretext, but the owners contradict your story…


    S'pose it's pretty hard to get believed when you've spent the last few years openly brazenly lying about everything large and small. And you're just the latest version of a government with a long history of hokeying up pretexts to start wars

    • Macro 10.1

      Yep it's scary alright. Those idiots Bolton and Pompeo are just itching to start a hot war, and they are trying to get at it through the back door of the AMUF -so no need to get congressional approval.

      Here's Vox's analysis of the situation right now:

      The Trump administration keeps saying that it doesn’t want to go to war with Iran. The problem is that some top officials continue to make statements that could pave a dubiously legal and factually challenged pathway to war.

      If that’s the intention, a major flare-up between Washington and Tehran could lead the administration to say it has the right to launch what would be one of the nastiest, bloodiest conflicts in modern history — even if it really doesn’t legally have that authorization.

      For months, President Donald Trump and some of his top officials have claimed Iran and al-Qaeda, the terrorist group that launched the 9/11 terror attacks, are closely linked. That’s been a common refrain despite evidence showing their ties aren’t strong at all. In fact, even al-Qaeda’s own documents detail the weak connection between the two.

      But insisting there’s a nefarious, continual relationship matters greatly. In 2001, Congress passed an Authorization for the Use of Military Force (AUMF), allowing the president “to use all necessary and appropriate force against those nations, organizations, or persons he determines planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored such organizations or persons.”

      Which means that if the Trump administration truly believes Iran and al-Qaeda have been in cahoots before or after 9/11, then it could claim war with Tehran already is authorized by law.

      That chilling possibility was raised during a House Armed Services Committee session early Thursday morning by an unlikely pair: Rep. Matt Gaetz (R-FL), a top Trump ally, and Rep. Elissa Slotkin (D-MI), a Pentagon official in the Obama administration.

      “The notion that the administration has never maintained that there are elements of the 2001 AUMF that would authorize their hostilities toward Iran is not consistent with my understanding of what they said to us,” said Gaetz. “We were absolutely presented with a formal presentation on how the AUMF might authorize war on Iran,” added Slotkin right after, although she noted no one said they would use it to greenlight a fight.


      • Sabine 10.1.1

        i don't think that anyone should believe anything the Trump administration says.

        Not a single word.

        what ever will have the biggest quid pro quo is what gets done.

        • Macro

          Actually Sabine apart from his unthinking base which is around 25+% of Americans I don't believe anyone does believe anything he says. The other 10+% of his total 40% base are those Republicans who will vote GOP regardless.

          In terms of wanting to escalate tensions in the Middle East – such as Bolton and Pompeo are doing – the majority of Americans are pretty much opposed to that. Trump unfortunately has only two driving "principles" his own vanity, and the size of his bottom line. As far as international affairs are concerned – if they don't involve porn stars – he's not interested. So in effect Bolton and Pompeo are free to stir the big paddle as much as they like, and if there is a bob or two in it for Trumpy all well and good.

          The Senate are in the majority opposed to any escalation of war in the middle-east and last week actually voted to stop arm sales to the Saudi's – a multi million dollar deal suspiciously arranged betweenTrump and Krushner and the Prince. (Note Krushner's family Real Estate firm got a $90M backhander loan from the Saudis soon after, which naturally Krushner "forgot" to mention on his security application.)

          Senators have locked in the votes needed for an initial move to block President Trump’s Saudi arms sales, paving the way for a high-stakes veto showdown.

          The Senate is expected to take up the 22 resolutions of disapproval as soon as next week, to block each of the sales, after Trump invoked an emergency provision under the Arms Export Control Act to push through the sales without a congressional review period.

          Because lawmakers are challenging the sales under the same law, they need only a simple majority to send the resolutions to the president.

          With all 47 members of the Democratic caucus expected to support the resolutions, they needed to win over at least four Senate Republicans to have the simple majority needed to send the resolution to the House, where Democrats have pledged to follow suit with blocking the sales.

          Three GOP senators — Sens. Rand Paul (Ky.), Lindsey Graham(S.C.) and Todd Young (Ind.) — signed on as sponsors when the resolutions were rolled out last week. A spokesman on Tuesday confirmed that Sen. Mike Lee (R-Utah) has signed on as a co-sponsor, giving Democrats their crucial fourth vote.

          The unprecedented move to block the sales reflects growing frustration on Capitol Hill about the U.S.-Saudi relationship and would come after two votes fell short in recent years to block arms deals with Saudi Arabia. One, in 2016, garnered support from only 27 senators. The other, in June 2017, had the backing of 47 senators.

          Since then, U.S.-Saudi relations have soured further amid growing concerns about Saudi Arabia’s involvement in the years-long Yemen civil war and the death of Washington Post contributor Jamal Khashoggi in 2018.

          Democrats could also pick up Republican support in addition to the four votes they already have.

          GOP Sens. Susan Collins (Maine), Steve Daines (Mont.), Lisa Murkowski(Alaska) and Jerry Moran (Kan.), along with Young, Paul and Lee, each voted with Democrats on a resolution to end support for the Saudi-led military campaign in Yemen. If each of them votes for the resolution of disapproval on the arms sales, that would give supporters at least eight Republican “yes” votes.


          Regrettably there were not enough votes in this to stop Trump's veto.

          • Sabine

            Regrettable there is a lot of lip service and very little action. We live in interesting times.

      • greywarshark 10.1.2

        Definition. AMUF. American Musicians United Fellowship. Copyright 1988-2018 AcronymFinder.com, All rights reserved.

        War! What is it good for!

        I do believe that the musicians should be the ones to face off.

  10. marty mars 11

    Good work sorting this – thanks to all concerned.

    The government has announced a new deal aimed at breaking the deadlock with teachers, which Education Minister Chris Hipkins says unions will recommend to their members.


    • The Chairman 11.1

      Last week teachers and the Government were a billion dollars apart. With the Government playing hardball, strongly stating there is no more money.

      Now that industrial action has stepped up, the Government has found a little more. But it is still far short (that's Labour, always falling short) from the billion more that teachers wanted.

      I see the unions are recommending it, the question is, will their members?

      Will teachers settle for less than half of what they were striking for?

      Would they get more if they continue to hold strong?

      What would you recommend they do?

      • Robert Guyton 11.1.1

        Vote Green.

      • solkta 11.1.2

        (that's Labour, always falling short)

        You are as transparent as a transparent thing.

      • marty mars 11.1.3

        Yep good to see wise heads are prevailing – good work everyone.

        • The Chairman

          If teachers genuinely want more, wouldn't you agree the "wise" thing to do would be to hold strong?

          • marty mars

            Wise is making the agreement

            • The Chairman

              Not if teachers genuinely want more. The reason being, they have little to lose by holding strong.

              • marty mars

                ummm I don't think you know much about negotiations if you think that.

                • The Chairman

                  Really? Play your hand then and we'll see. In other words, put forward your argument for why you think that.

                  • What argument does he need to put forward? Negotiation is a process of reaching mutual agreement where there are conflicting interests. It isn't, or shouldn't be, a game of brinkmanship to ensure you get everything you want at the other party's expense, unless you're a sociopath with a complete lack of integrity (President Donald J. Trump, for example).

                    I appreciate that, as a Tory concern troll, you'd like to see the government and the teacher unions locked in a bitter, no-holds-barred industrial dispute, but no-one who doesn't want National returned to power shares that view.

                    • The Chairman

                      What argument does he need to put forward?

                      His argument for why he thinks that.

                      Yes, negotiation is about compromise, but that doesn't mean people shouldn't hold strong to ensure they aren't unfairly compromised.

                      My position here is all about the teachers getting what they want and how much they are willing to compromise.

                      As far as I'm concerned, the Government can spend less on the military. Being left, you would surely agree?

                    • Negotiation isn't about getting what you want, it's about you and the other party both getting a good result while not burning all your bridges in the process. A negotiator whose position was "all about the teachers getting what they want" would be a liability, not an asset.

                      As far as I'm concerned, the Government can spend less on the military. Being left, you would surely agree?

                      The government could spend less on all kinds of things. That also is a negotiation. And the idea that we don't need any military capability isn't a "left" opinion, it's a "naive" opinion (or a concern-troll one, of course).

                    • The Chairman

                      Negotiation isn't about getting what you want, it's about you and the other party both getting a good result while not burning all your bridges in the process.

                      Yes. It is about compromise, as I clearly stated. So that has dealt to your strawman quoted above. And of course, your following kicker quoted below.

                      A negotiator whose position was "all about the teachers getting what they want" (and how much they are willing to compromise which you conveniently left out as it didn't align with your strawman quoted above) would be a liability, not an asset.

                      The idea that we don't need any military capability is merely your attempt at another strawman. I certainly didn't say that or imply it.

                      The notion of spending less on the military and more on education was Labour's stance before Jacinda became leader.

                • Drowsy M. Kram

                  Not agreeing (holding out for more) is what The Chairman wants.

                  Maybe The Chairman is a teacher, or maybe they have an ulterior motive for dragging out the conflict. You be the judge.

                  • The Chairman

                    My stance here is, if teachers genuinely want more and aren't prepared to accept less than half of what they have been striking for, then they should really hold strong. They have little to lose in doing so.

                    Seeing as the Government didn't even meet them half way, I feel the public (who are hugely behind them) will continue to be understanding and support them.

                    Moreover, now that it is on the table, I don't believe the Government will back away from this current offer, thus teachers have little to lose holding strong.

                    • In Vino

                      Chairman, how many times over how many years have I rebuked you for blowing your cover as an obvious concern troll? Yet you keep persisting..
                      Have you not noticed that the vast majority of commenters here think you are a joke? Look at yesterday's Open Mike.
                      As a teacher myself, I see your deep concern on this issue as that of an anti-leftie who is hoping like hell that the teachers will not vote in favour of the settlement, thereby forcing you to acknowledge that this Govt may have achieved something..
                      All through their many years in opposition, Labour and the Greens could never meet your preciously high standards. Now that they are in power they still cannot.
                      As Drowsy M Kram pointed out, you apply this blowtorch of yours only to the left – never to the Right.
                      You are indeed as transparent as a transparent thing, and what is more, people can see through you!

                    • The Chairman

                      Chairman, how many times over how many years have I rebuked you for blowing your cover as an obvious concern troll, yet you keep persisting.

                      Never. While you have attempted to, you have never succeeded.

                      As a teacher myself, I see your deep concern on this issue as that of an anti-leftie who is hoping like hell that the teachers will not vote in favour of the settlement, thereby forcing you to acknowledge that this Govt may have achieved something.

                      Total rubbish. I clearly stated my stance on this matter above. But just for you, here it is again.

                      My stance here is, if teachers genuinely want more and aren't prepared to accept less than half of what they have been striking for, then they should really hold strong. They have little to lose in doing so.

                      So as you can see, my stance is all about what the teachers want. I merely pointed out they have nothing to lose holding strong.

                      All through their many years in opposition, Labour and the Greens could never meet your preciously high standards. Now that they are in power they still cannot.

                      Of course. if they couldn't meet expectations in opposition one can't really expect them to do it in power. Hence why I was pushing them so hard when in opposition, it wasn't hard to foresee the shortcomings we face now.

                      As Drowsy M Kram pointed out, you apply this blowtorch of yours only to the left – never to the Right.

                      Being from the left, it is only natural to expect I'm going to hold them to account. National don't represent me. And Labour generally (since 84) only do in name. But this is the main party of the left these days so it's either get them back on side, find someone new, or just give up.

                      I'm not one for giving up, hence I speak up, only to come across lefties that are backing the employer (in this case the Government) instead of their fellow workers.

                      Which just goes to show how much the left has really lost itself.

                      So once again you tried, but failed, In Vino.

                    • Robert Guyton

                      The tone of this line from The Chairman reveals, for those sensitive to tone, his true intent:

                      "As far as I'm concerned, the Government can spend less on the military. Being left, you would surely agree?"

                  • Robert Guyton

                    The chair is a bore.

                  • In Vino

                    My judgement as a teacher is that the so-called Chairman is definitely not a teacher, and obviously has an ulterior motive for dragging out the conflict. In some ways he reminds me of Iago at his most persuasive.

                    Edit – this was in reply to Drowsey S Kram way up above, in case it seems random..

    • Herodotus 11.2

      Only negative is for teachers such as Eileen Gilmore qualified on Q1 will have to wait until July 2022 before they benefit by being at paid at step 9. The pay gap for these teachers remains the same. These teachers are the group who have lost out from the initial offer, some could say their union has sacrificed them, perhaps the union failing this group could mean the offer is declined ?



      • The Chairman 11.2.1

        Perhaps the union failing this group could mean the offer is declined ?

        It could be.

        It wouldn't cost the Government much more to correct this, thus one wonders why they left it to become a potential sticking point.

        • Incognito

          You’ve said a few times that the teachers should hold strong as they have nothing to lose. You obviously believe this but try to think about it for a moment and then see whether you still hold strong on your simplism.

          • In Vino

            You talk of the union betraying members? I think a good 80% plus of teachers are union members, and they will be the deciders when they vote on it.

            Any 'betrayal' will be by the vast majority of teachers by the way they voted.

            I get annoyed by anti-union spin.

            • gsays

              Feel free to to tell me it's none of my business…

              Are you happy with what has been offered In Vino?

              I ask as I had a vested interest in the nurses industrial action.

              I felt the union let it's members down and seemed to be closer aligned to the ministry. E.g. sending essentially the same offer back for ratification many times, signing the accord for more 500 nurses during negotiations…

              • In Vino

                Like you, (I think) I am intensely pissed off with deliberate run-down since the Rogernomics debacle.

                Our union cannot sign off for members during negotiations. We all vote on it. If majority approve, OK.

                I am actually bloody old and semi-retired. I see the new offer as a plus, but I do not know how the majority of current full-time teachers will view it.

                Up to them. Not me.. I am half out of it all now, and don't think I am the right one to answer your question

            • Herodotus

              So you are happy that there are teachers out there doing the same fine job and yet being paid $12k less Fair?

              You get annoyed by anti union spin how about supporting those who are being treated inferior to others ? Isn't that part of what a union is there for, to stand up for those to give them a "fair suck of the sav" ? It seams that fairness is not part of your make up.

              Any 'betrayal … ' Really, the union thought it was worth fighting for at the start but now they have dropped this, and no reason has been given.

              • In Vino

                As I recall, such teachers were offered chance and support for upgrading their qualifications, but I am from the secondary sector, and if the case you quote is in the primary sector, then I cannot answer.

                As for your first question, I have seen marvellous teacher aids who deserve to be paid at least $12k more.. but they are not qualified and part of our union, so they have no muscle.

                Anti-unionists will scream out about injustice, but never support workers supporting one another in a union. Where are you coming from, Herodotus?

                • Herodotus

                  Have o look at this page


                  unfortunately the union has got themselves in a position whereby if this is not voted for have positioned themselves to lose support from the parents.

                  Agreed, teacher aids and other support people have been IMO been severely taken for granted by all governments ( Same could be said for any female dominated workforce). Fine when in the past, a family could survive on the primary wage earner, and the secondary earner just paid for the extras. Times have changed that now with 2 primary wage earners a family lives on a day to day basis and there are few/if any xtras 🤢

                  • Incognito

                    Support staff are paid from the school budget and have to literally compete with toilet paper. If a school exceeds the MoE roll and has to hire extra teaching staff this will also have to be paid from the school budget. Guess what has the lowest priority.

                  • The Chairman

                    Unfortunately the union has got themselves in a position whereby if this is not voted for have positioned themselves to lose support from the parents.

                    Can you expand on that notion, thanks.

    • Gabby 11.3

      PPTA's record of standing up for the membership isn't stellar.

      • marty mars 11.3.1

        I wouldn't know, but I am a union member and believer, even though they are made up of people, with all the foibles people have, including not great ones.

      • In Vino 11.3.2

        Gabby, the vast majority of secondary teachers are the PPTA, and their vote is the will of the vast majority of the secondary teaching force. This settlement will be voted on by every member of PPTA: the union executive can do nothing without the membership's approval.

        But you accuse the PPTA of not standing up for its membership?

        A more correct accusation might be that the vast majority of secondary teachers may sometimes neglect minority groups in their ranks.

        Care to elucidate?

  11. joe90 12

    I'll be watching you
    Every move you make
    Every step you take
    I'll be watching you

    Bluetooth beacons, however, can track your location accurately from a range of inches to about 50 meters. They use little energy, and they work well indoors. That has made them popular among companies that want precise tracking inside a store.

    Most people aren’t aware they are being watched with beacons, but the “beacosystem” tracks millions of people every day. Beacons are placed at airports, malls, subways, buses, taxis, sporting arenas, gyms, hotels, hospitals, music festivals, cinemas and museums, and even on billboards.


  12. Jenny - How to Get there? 13

    What if they gave a war, and nobody came?

    The Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe was in Tehran trying to help ease rising tensions between the United States and Iran.
    A Japanese owned vessel is then struck with 'flying objects'.


    Probably not.

    Who was the culprit?

    What was their motive?

    Was it 'False Flag' attack by the Americans on their Japanese ally, pinned on the Iranians by the Americans to sabotage the Japanese Prime Minister's peace making efforts?
    Was it a false, 'False Flag' attack, by the Iranians, blamed on the Americans, to strengthen Japanese peace making efforts?

    The US claim it was the Iranians.

    The Iranians express mystification.

    The Us have video from the scene, which the US claims, shows Iranian revolutionary guards removing an unexploded limpet mine from the ship.

    The world now knows the US claim of limpet mines is false.

    The Japanese ship owner says it is not obvious from looking at it that the ship was Japanese, which means that someone would've had to have had pre-knowledge that it was Japanese. That is, if that was the reason it was targeted.
    The Japanese owner said that there was no damage to the 25,000 tons of highly flammable methanol cargo, aboard the Kokuka Courageous. This would indicate that the 'flying objects', whatever they were, did not carry explosive warheads. The removal of war heads normally fitted to flying missiles/shells/objects indicates that the attack was premeditated, and that the attackers, whoever they were, did not intend to sink or destroy the Japanese vessel, instead they wanted to send a warning, or create political fallout from the attack.

    Flying objects” damaged Japanese tanker during attack in Gulf of Oman

    By Junko Fujita 13 hrs ago

    TOKYO, June 14 (Reuters) – Two “flying objects” damaged a Japanese tanker owned by Kokuka Sangyo Co in an attack on Thursday in the Gulf of Oman, but there was no damage to the cargo of methanol, the company president said on Friday…..

    ……Japanese Industry Minister Hiroshige Seko said on Friday that the incidents will be discussed at a meeting of G20 energy and environment ministers this weekend.

    Seko declined to comment on American officials blaming Iran, saying Japan is still investigating the incident, which occurred while Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe was in Tehran trying to help ease rising tensions between the United States and Iran.


    • Jenny - How to Get there? 13.1

      What if they gave a war and nobody came II

      FOX NEWS @3:40 minutes

      …..but we also have to get our allies in order. The irony of this is that one of the ships is owned by the Japanese, Japanese Prime Minister Abe was in Iran talking peace with the Iranians while one of his ships was being laden with a mine that exploded. This was a direct insult to Abe to do this to one of his ships while he was in Iran.

      Fox News needn't worry that NZ is not in order. We’re never one to miss a US sponsored bloodbath.

      • TootingPopularFront 13.1.1

        I used to have a poster on my wall when I was a teenager saying exactly that "Suppose they gave a war and nobody came" superimposed on a picture of the mushroom cloud from the Hiroshima bomb – made me happy to think that all of the soldiers suddenly saw that propaganda they were fed for what it was and what was behind it all – the avarice, bigotry and inhumanity of mendacious tyrants using them as weapons to bully and beat up countries less able to protect themselves…

        • Jenny - How to Get there?

          The first victim of war is truth.

          TVNZ beats the war drums.

          If war does break out and New Zealanders are called to fight and die in it, TVNZ can claim part of the responsibility.

          TVNZ News at 6 has just repeated the US version of the attack on the Japanese tanker as caused by limpet mines placed there by Iranian forces.

          And gave no mention at all, of the Japanese ship owner claim that their ship was hit by 'flying objects'.

          Or Iranian denial of any involvement.

          So much for journalistic balance at TVNZ.

          That TVNZ have deliberately provided the NZ public with only the US version of this attack, goes against all journalistic norms of ethical unbiased reporting.

          They say, you cannot bribe or twist

          Thank God

          The Kiwi journalist

          When you see what un-bribed they'll do

          There's really no occasion to.

          • TootingPopularFront

            Shameful by TVNZ, I couldn't watch the regurgitation of Pompeo and Trump's talking points, where is our independent foreign policy…or are we going to be talking about withdrawing NZ military from Iran in 10 years' time too?

  13. The Chairman 14

    In two frames of mind about this one

    REACH is a Waikato programme which helps people medically excluded from work get back into employment.

    It's a collaboration between the Ministry of Development and Waikato DHB, and part of a wider Oranga Mahi project.

    The programme is under the umbrella of Oranga Mahi, which also has initiatives in Northland, Auckland, and Canterbury.


    218 people had taken part by March 2019, about 20 per cent of them went back to or started work, and another 13 per cent were in full-time study, or volunteer work.

    My question is what was the impact on the majority that partook but didn't end up in work, study or volunteering?

    Did any have a negative impact from the programme?

    Did it worsen or intensify their health conditions?

    Is this help merely offered, or can it not be refused?

    Seems there were a small number that benefited, hence my two states of mind.

    Any thoughts?

    • Incognito 14.1

      Is this help merely offered, or can it not be refused?

      “The programme is voluntary and does not affect client’s benefits.”


      Any thoughts?

      Yes, I do have some thoughts: if you don’t know what you’re talking about, it helps to do a search instead of seeding doubt and discord and your usual negativity that is often unfounded in reality.


      From the link you provided in your comment:

      The REACH programme is being evaluated by a PhD student from the University of Auckland.

      That information – along with data from the other Oranga Mahi programmes – will help the government determine what works best for combined health and employment programmes.


      But it seems you have already made up your mind.

      • The Chairman 14.1.1

        But it seems you have already made up your mind.

        I stated some general facts about the programme. Stated I was in two frames of mind about it. Then proceeded to ask some straight forward questions.

        So how you came to that conclusion is anybodies guess.

        And although I'm still undecided, what's fishy about this is the way the story (which I linked to) was hyping up the programme despite its very limited success. And yet, it is still going for further evaluation for the Government to consider (no doubt for a national roll out) despite it's dismal rate of success from the onset.

        So speaking of already making up ones mind, sounds (by the way this is being pushed through) as if this has already been given some sort of nod of approval behind the scenes.

        Furthermore, it's hard to search for a programme evaluation when said programme is still being evaluated.

        • Incognito

          Your mind didn’t bother to tell you that it had made up its mind because you tend to not listen and because you don’t have an open mind. Mind you, this is just me deduction from your mindless blabbering about undermining the Government by others.

          • The Chairman

            There is nothing wrong with my mind. You are the one acting irrational.

            • Incognito

              I know I am irrational, thank you. I’m not lacking in self-awareness.

              Furthermore, it's hard to search for a programme evaluation when said programme is still being evaluated.

              Indeed, it is, so why not hold judgement? It is not your style, is it? You know nothing about the programme yet you feel ‘authorised’ to cast your doubts.

              You even claim is earmarked “no doubt for a national roll out” but have no data to support this claim.

              You talk about “it's [sic] dismal rate of success from the onset” and “its very limited success” but have not data to support this either.

              I can come to only one conclusion, which is that you are not “in two frames of mind about it” and that you are not “still undecided” but that you have made up your mind.

              It is pretty sad that you form an opinion based on a “fishy” story in MSM without any further evidence. However, this feeds the perception that some here have of you and I can’t blame them, as it is hard if not impossible to escape it.

              • Rosemary McDonald

                Sorry to butt into your guys' little snipe fest but you both do realise this little program of 'gently guiding people into life affirming employment by lovingly supporting them to be confident and positive' was an initiative started under the Previous Incumbents?

                You know…the Key/English combo committed… to dealing to what English dubbed the 'big hard lump of wasted human potential.'

                English then stated that …if these people were on ACC they'd be moved on, it costs a little more on ACC, but not that much…blah, blah.

                Is it all coming back now? How under the National administration ACC purged its books of clients forcing many onto WINZ benefits…and so it goes.


                Yeah, yeah, buried in the crypt of the Business Section where no decent Lefty would be seen dead…but there it is.

                So that was what was on Mr Guy's mind when he was busy treating my partner and I with such un professional disdain.

                Incognito…you might want to take a few moments to check a little bit further afield before you automatically assume someone is merely trying to lower morale and faith in the Current Incumbents by casting aspersions on a new initiative.

                This is not new, and this has little to do with the Current Mob.

                Just like the Disability Support Services System Transformation whose launch in Mid Central was presented by Sepuloni as a Coalition initiative…this started under National and can't be trusted.


                • The Chairman

                  Thanks again, Rosemary.

                  Is it all coming back now?


                • Incognito

                  It was started under National in 2016 I believe and it is still going. Whether it is going strong seems be too early to tell although some seem to have made up their minds already albeit for different reasons.

                  National may have initiated many things for the wrong reasons or with the wrong intentions in mind but that doesn’t mean these cannot be turned into something more positive with better outcomes. Time with tell with this one.

                  I respect your views on The Chairman and his MO but I don’t share them. I find his comments less than helpful and constructive, they generally lack supportive evidence or information, and take up much space here for no obvious benefit, IMHO.

              • The Chairman

                I know I am irrational, thank you

                Yes, asserting I lack self-awareness along with your other irrational comments/assumptions confirmed it.

                I didn't hold judgement. And it is also incorrect to say I know nothing of the programme. After all, I was the one who posted the article about it.

                You even claim is earmarked “no doubt for a national roll out” but have no data to support this claim.

                The model is being evaluated for that consideration as implied in the article.

                You talk about “it's [sic] dismal rate of success from the onset” and “its very limited success” but have not data to support this either.

                Again, the data was in the article initially linked too.

                I can come to only one conclusion, which is that you are not “in two frames of mind about it” and that you are not “still undecided” but that you have made up your mind.

                Which reaffirms you're an irrational (now self admitted) nutter.

                As it seems to work for a small number and isn't compulsory (being compulsory would be a sticking point for me) I'm not that opposed to it.

                • Incognito

                  You posted your usual negative outlook with a link to a piece in MSM. That was and is the extent of your knowledge. You didn’t even know it is voluntary but even that you dispute because, you know, WINZ.

                  If the programme is deemed unsuccessful, now or in the future, it will be scrapped. It is an experiment and as such, there always is a risk that it will not deliver or live up to expectations. Hopefully, some useful things will be learned from this.

                  You have already jumped the gun.

                  Where in the article does it state that the programme is considered for “a national roll out”? Why then did you need to add your qualifier “no doubt”?

                  Do you consider yourself to be a purely rational being?

                  • The Chairman

                    You posted your usual negative outlook with a link to a piece in MSM.

                    I stated some general facts about the programme. Stated I was in two frames of mind about it. Then proceeded to ask some straight forward questions. So why do you continually lie about this?

                    You didn’t even know it is voluntary

                    Hence, it was one of my questions.

                    I didn't dispute it, I merely pointed out WINZ is notorious for forcing people on to work ready programmes. And despite your attempt to imply that was all in the past, it still happens today.

                    Albeit, not currently with this programme. Hence my hope this stance continues going forward.

                    I haven't jumped the gun, that is merely another of your irrational conclusions.

                    Where in the article does it state that the programme is considered for “a national roll out”?

                    Where did I say that? You, yourself linked to where the article implied it.

                    Why then did you need to add your qualifier “no doubt”?

                    As it seems a most likely outcome IMO.

                    Do you consider yourself to be a purely rational being?

                    I'm rational in my line of thinking.

                    • Incognito

                      And it is also incorrect to say I know nothing of the programme. After all, I was the one who posted the article about it.

                      Your claimed ‘knowledge’ was a link, no more, no less. What did I “lie” about?

                      It is voluntary. But you were casting doubt on this lasting with your usual expression of concern soaked in negativity.

                      Yes, you have jumped the gun but you are tone-deaf and in denial about it. You have already interpreted the programme in your own words “it's [sic] dismal rate of success from the onset” and “its very limited success”.

                      You cannot even remember what you write in your comments. From your comment @ 14.1.1:

                      And yet, it is still going for further evaluation for the Government to consider (no doubt for a national roll out) despite it's [sic] dismal rate of success from the onset. [my bold]

                      Why do you think this is “a [sic] most likely outcome” in the light of “its very limited success” [your own words]?

                      So, when you think, you are rational, and when you don’t think, you are not? Weird answer.

                  • Drowsy M. Kram

                    Robert Guyton's description of The Chairman's commenting style is apt and hard to forget, particularly given the frequent reinforcement that The Chairman provides.

                    "relentlessly-soggy comentary" https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-14-06-2019/#comment-1627868

                    Then there's the fact that comments submitted by The Chairman (who professes to be “more left than most“) are invariably critical of the policies and performance of left-leaning parties/MPs, regardless of whether they are in Government or in opposition.

                    In The Chairman's thousands of comments submitted to The Standard, you could count the comments critical of right-leaning parties/MPs on one hand. Unfortunately the search function isn't working for me at the moment, otherwise I'd do a count myself.

                    The Chairman’s criticism, and the way they raise Natioanl party attack lines and talking point, is all fine – what I object to the the deceptive nature of the “more left than most” description.

                  • The Chairman


                    Let's twist again like we did last summer

                    I'll untwist that load rubbish for you when I have time wink

                  • The Chairman

                    The link was to an article about the programme, refuting your assertion I know nothing about it.

                    What casts doubt on it remaining voluntary is it's not in the nature of other current and past work ready programmes.

                    Again, I haven't jumped the gun. I was commenting on its reported data noting its dismal success rate.

                    I remembered what I wrote, it's just not what you stated (not this time but initially).

                    The reason why it is a most likely outcome was clearly stated. The reporting of it was over hyped. Moreover, its success rate is dismal yet, despite this, it has made the grade for further evaluation for the Government to then consider. Additionally, seeing as it has survived the change of Government, it seems it is favoured/supported in high places.

                    • Incognito

                      A link to a piece in MSM that contained all of your ‘knowledge’ – I already said that – which led you to go off on your usual tangent.

                      I quote verbatim from your comment and you blankly deny you wrote it.

                      You make all sorts of (negative) assumptions but pretend to be in two minds.

                      You cast doubt, seed discord, place everything in the most negative light possible and do amazing acrobatics when pulled up on it. Any more music clips coming?

                      How do you know the reporting was overhyped? Do you have any data to show it was overhyped? My guess is that all you’ve got is what is in the linked piece.

                      Last attempt: where is or was it clearly stated that the [not “a”] most likely outcome is a national roll out? Come on, quote it, if you can. I bet you can’t because you made it up. But you seem to think you didn’t, that it is based in and on reality.

                      The purpose of a genuine debate is to present facts, examine these and the merits of the various conceptual (or ideological) frameworks, to obtain a better handle on reality and arrive closer to what might be called truth. Surely, this must appeal to a rational thinker.

                      Do you consider yourself contributing to or participating in debate here or do you see yourself more as an alarmist? Your comments seem to suggest the latter.

                  • The Chairman

                    You asserted I know nothing on the matter, yet the article linked to was a report on the matter. Therefore, you knowingly lied.

                    Nor did I go off on a tangent. I merely asked a set of questions. So there is another lie.

                    I didn't deny the quote. I denied I said the article stated that nor did I quote it as such. I said it implied that. Making that your third lie.

                    I made one assumption not all sorts. That's 4.

                    Doubt, discord, and things looking negative are largely the consequences of the Government's failure to deliver, policies, etc. Especially for those struggling on the left hoping for some wellbeing.

                    You (and a couple of others) seem to want to blame those who discuss the failures and not those that failed to deliver.

                    It was clear the report was over hyped. The report was more positive than balanced (covering nothing at all on the majority that didn't succeed other than the numbers) failing to align with the dismal results.

                    I genuinely debate, you ridicule twist and lie.

              • greywarshark

                The Chairman and other similar trollers trivialise this blog and probably lose us a lot of really good commenters who can't be bothered with TS while the feeble rules of engagement don't protect against the persistent pests. These blighters want and succced in emasculating the discussion contributions and controlled contest of thought and opinion that the blog can deliver well, When it is enabled.

                • The Chairman

                  Low blow, greywarshark.

                  Keep it to the political topic. Playing the man tends to risk the concern you claim to be concerned about – i.e. putting people off.

      • The Chairman 14.1.2

        'The programme is voluntary and does not affect client’s benefits.'

        Good. Let's hope it remains that way.

        • Incognito

          Why wouldn’t it?

          • The Chairman

            WINZ are notorious for forcing people on to work ready programmes.

            • Incognito

              WINZ? As always, assuming the worst-case scenario? No trust or faith in positive change, it seems. WINZ once bad, WINZ always bad. With such an outlook and mentality, you’re ensured to never be pleasantly surprised because, you know, all good things come to an end. To me, you come across as a misery guts.

    • Rosemary McDonald 14.2

      Any thoughts?

      Ah. The Manager is one Graham Guy.

      Peter and I have history with that ex-UK bureaucrat.

      How shall I put this? Struggles with facts. Struggles with people checking up on his statements and discovering what he just wrote as fact was indeed…not fact.

      Is very, very good (we think he's had lots and lots of practice) at doing a stone statue impression and flatly refusing to answer questions or account for his statements or actions. Shows absolutely no reaction when a normally mild mannered man out of frustration calls him a liar to his face.

      Twists a complaint against him and the organisation he manages into an implied accusation that said disabled person is reluctant to have a proper needs assessment.

      Said disabled person happy to have Needs Assessment (sigh, another one) only this time there is a doctor, registered nurse, an occupational therapist and a physiotherapist who at the behest of said Graham Guy subject the disabled person to a three hour assessment which even included checking said disabled persons feet and posterior for the pressure sores they had already been told he didn't have.

      Hmmm. Mr Guy had given the impression that it was just our opinion that Peter's care needs were very high and complex…hence the top guns for this assessment.

      Funny thing is the initial allocation of 8 hours per day of support needed came out as11 hours per day after the Hit Squad had done their three hour thing. It was then 'peer reviewed' back down to 8 hours per day. Because what do the experts know? Right?

      (Note to all…Peter does not receive any funding for his care as they won't pay me.)

      Mr Guy, bright chap that he, is then proceeded to suggest three Contracted Providers who could step up at short notice to provide Peter's support should I be rendered incapacitated. None of them had any recognised experience with high spinal injury and in the words of a Ministry Of Health consultant his suggestions 'were highly inappropriate'.

      Is this help merely offered, or can it not be refused?

      And that is a very good question. When my man told Mr Guy that yes he was happy to have (yet another) Needs Assessment '…. but if the assessor does not have a working knowledge of tetraplegia then I'll be asking them to leave.', he was told in no uncertain terms that he would be "declining service."

      This "Declining Service" and the black mark it attracts to your record is an actual thing in this sector.

      It matters not if the "Service" is not fit for purpose. Decline it and you can kiss your proverbial ta ta.

      So, TC. your resevations are founded. IMHO.

      (And their success rate is appalling.)

      • In Vino 14.2.1

        Sorry to read that Rosemary – my full sympathy and probably useless moral support.

        I just fear that the Chairman is a long-time concern troll, who may use your material for his own purposes.. Probably to spread despondency.

        Mind you, if a bad, dysfunctional programme ends up getting quashed, that would be a plus for all of us.

        • Rosemary McDonald

          I have no idea what a "concern troll" is but I presume it is bad? No matter.

          The Chairman is correct to question these schemes…indeed, when I read that article earlier I nearly posted here as I have personal experience with the manager when in an allied field to the REACH programme.

          I didn't think anyone else here would detect the possible fish hooks or failings….see it for what it probably is…another happy clappy feel good scheme that this gummint is as good as the last for promoting.

          Some of us are actually despondent In Vino, as despite much effort (including court cases and Human Rights hearings) our positions, as a disabled person with very high and complex supports needs and the unpaid spousal partner providing all of his supports are worse now in terms of security and rights than they were when we had our last dealings with Mr Guy back in late 2016.

          Promises, but no hint of any improvement in our situation nor the situations of other commenters here. Like Kay, for instance.

          "Despondent" might be too defeated sounding. Down we are but not out.

          And I will challenge this Current Mob every step of the way.

          • In Vino

            I don't think many of us are feeling elated and victorious these days Rosemary, but having read many of your contributions, I sympathise, and accept your concerns as genuine.

            Basically, I see a concern troll as one who pretends to be one of us, tries to make himself (or, of course, herself) accepted as one of us, but then tries to use our attitudes and philosophies against us. This can be by encouraging us to push policies that they think will make us unpopular with the general public (but we believe in those policies, and don't see the trick); by encouraging us to argue and disagree amongst ourselves through stirring up internal debate where there is no easy answer, and (Chairman's speciality) by pushing our beloved principles so hard as to make us all aware that we are nowhere near living up to them, thereby reducing our belief in those principles, and our will to bring them into practice because it is all going so badly with no success, only disappointment.

            Your disappointment is genuine. Your challenging the current mob is genuine. I trust that, but I do not trust The Chairman.

            • Rosemary McDonald

              Interesting answer…but of course raises more questions.

              Define "us".

              And say we all here (bar some) are part of the "we", what are the 'attitudes and philosophies' that define us?

              What are these " beloved principles " that the likes of The Chairman is causing 'us' to become aware that 'we' are not living up to them?

              Mayhap The Chairman's mission is to provoke all around these parts into having the expectation that this Current Mob will be true to its publicised principals and be truly transformative and put an end toot sweet to the ravages of the last thirty years of neo- liberal rule.

              Or, The Chairman could simply be an annoying nit-picker.

            • Robert Guyton

              How many times will I get away with posting the same comment; that is;

              "in vino veritas".

      • The Chairman 14.2.2

        Very sad yet very informative, Rosemary. Thanks very much for sharing your personal insights.

        • Rosemary McDonald

          And luckily, TC, by the time we had to make a complaint about Disability Support Link and subsequently Mr Guy himself we had learned to put everything in writing or record conversations. Probably the reason Mr Guy wouldn't respond, or account for what he had written.

          These are twisty, tricksy times. wink

    • Gabby 14.3

      Participated cherry. We partake of food. We participate in activity.

  14. Muttonbird 15

    Could these non-union members who are "philosophically opposed" to unions simply refuse the pay rises union members have done the hard work to secure?

    Newsflash, Justin Lindsay; stating you are “philosophically opposed” to unions, but demanding access to a core tenet of union membership – equal pay – doesn’t add up.

    No wonder he is a music teacher.


    They come across as ungrateful, hypocritical, parasitic pricks.

    • In Vino 15.1

      Agree. Coat-tailing, without having paid any union fees. I hope that the 3 months' delay makes up the years of union fees they have saved.

      They are actually free to negotiate their own individual contract with their own Board of Trustees.

      Good luck with that – the BOTs are still Bulk-Underfunded.

  15. joe90 16

    Wondering if NZ police will do the same.

  16. Bruce 17

    Anyone know how to report a page promoting the Australian killers manifesto.

    • Anne 17.1

      Ring the police Bruce.

    • Sabine 17.2

      is it a page from overseas or NZ?

      if it is a NZ page you can call the police, if it is an overseas page you can't to much as NZ laws do not apply to them.

  17. joe90 18

    Ladies and gentlemen, grab your ankles….

  18. marty mars 19

    lol truth

    “The kindest thing you can say about Sarah Sanders is that she was completely useless. She didn’t bother disguising her disdain for reporters. She didn’t bother holding press briefings – the last one was over 90 days ago. And she didn’t bother with the truth. She was an incompetent press secretary.

    Here’s the thing though: Sanders was never really hired to be a press secretary. Her real job, I’d venture, was to be a Very Visible Woman. Her real job was to be the female face of a deeply misogynistic administration; to play the role of the empowered working mother and make the Trump administration’s crass patriarchy more palatable.”


    • Sabine 19.1

      You could call her Aunt Lydia and Mrs. Conway is Serena Joy : )

      and all the lying was for god, and daddy, and god, and money, and god.

  19. Jenny - How to Get there? 20

    What we know

    The Japanese Prime Minister goes to Iran on a peace mission.

    During the Japanese Prime Minister's visit a Japanese oil tanker is attacked in the Gulf of Hormoz

    The Americans say the Japanese vessel was attacked with mines.

    The Japanese say their vessel was attacked by "flying objects"

    The Japanese say the ship's cargo of methanol was unharmed.

    Iranian fire fighting vessels put out a fire on the ship.

    The crew of the stricken vessel are taken off the Japanese ship by Iranian "rescuers". The damaged vessel is taken under control by the US Navy. The crew return and the ship is "escorted" by the US Navy to the United Arab Emirates.

    The American authorities blame the Iranian government for the attack, citing the alleged "sophisticated" use of mines as the evidence of Iranian involvement.

    The Americans release a grainy film clip which they claim shows Iranian forces removing an unexploded mine from the Japanese vessel

    The Japanese defence Minister says that Japan will not be sending any Japanese defence force ships to protect Japanese vessels operating in the Gulf



  20. Eco maori 21

    Eco Maori thanks Mike Joy for all the hard mahi he has dune to HIGHLIGHT the damage being dune to OUR Awa rivers waterways and estuaries from industrial farming and city industries

    Its quite hard getting the TRUTH about our environment out through the industrial money that suppress reality on the harm that urea and other Agricultural chemicals have on our waterways. Kia kaha Mike you are one of my heroes.

    National Portrait: Mike Joy, passionate advocate for the environment "I was thinking, what the f… is going on here," he says. "It was gruesome stuff. That was the first really concrete evidence of the stupidity of farming, of bubbles and how people get caught up in doing dumb things

    It was frustration that will later fuel a career studying the health of the nation's waterways and a bitter fightback from industries and academia angry at his findings and passionate advocacy.

    The journey has twists and turns like the many rivers Joy now stands in, but it starts in a headwater of blissful boyhood ignorance

    Former prime minister John Key and others accused him of economic sabotage and treachery when his mocking of New Zealand's 100% Pure branding was broadcast around the world Joy is just as scathing in his condemnation of the many bodies supporting the industry, the supposed watchdogs of the environment and the Government that supposedly rules them all.

    It matters not. Joy could have made a great deal more money by keeping his mouth shut and his head down.

    But he's no lamb. He won't be silenced

    Ka kite ano link below.


  21. Eco maori 22

    Some Eco Maori music for the minute.

  22. Eco maori 23

    Whanau our African cousin will suffer more than the people living in western countries as they don't have the money or the means to combat Climate Change.

    Most Africans have to grow their OWN FOOD. If the weather plays up they cannot go to the shop and buy food they end up starving to death that's their REALITY.

    Eco Maori knowns what the western people have dune to Africa over the last 300 years and it's no good at all because of that phenomenon I say that the western governments have to do all they can to help Africa survive Human Causes Global Warming.

    Global heating to inflict more droughts on Africa as well as floods

    New UK research predicts extremes of weather will hit food production

    Global heating could bring many more bouts of severe drought as well as increased flooding to Africa than previously forecast, scientists have warned.

    New research says the continent will experience many extreme outbreaks of intense rainfall over the next 80 years. These could trigger devastating floods, storms and disruption of farming. In addition, these events are likely to be interspersed with more crippling droughts during the growing season and these could also damage crop and food production.

    “Essentially we have found that both ends of Africa’s weather extremes will get more severe,” said Elizabeth Kendon of the Met Office’s Hadley Centre in Exeter. “The wet extreme will get worse, but also the appearance of dry spells during the growing season will also get more severe.”

    This meteorological double whammy is blamed on the burning of fossil fuels, which is increasing levels of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere and causing it to heat up. Last month levels of carbon dioxide reached 415 parts per million, their highest level since Homo sapiens first appeared on Earth – and scientists warn that they are likely to continue on this upward curve for several decades. Global temperatures will be raised dangerously as a result.

    The new meteorology study – carried out by scientists at the Met Office in collaboration with researchers at the Institute of Climate and Atmospheric Science at Leeds University – reports on the likely impact on Africa of these temperature rises and indicates that western and central areas will suffer the worst impacts of weather disruptions. Many countries in these regions – including Niger, Nigeria and the Democratic Republic of Congo – are expected to experience substantial growth in population over that time and will be particularly vulnerable to severe floods la kite ano link below.


  23. Eco maori 24

    Kia ora Newshub.

    Condolences to the whanau of the people who died in the 2 plane's that crashed into each other in Masterton .


    national goals of there reform of the justice system was to save the government money they made legal aid near impossible to get .If you wanted to sue the crown you can't get legal aid who cares about the Human rights to a fair trial.

    Thanks to our Government for having a enquiry into Oranga tamariki process of uplifting tamariki it not just Maori and Pacific tamariki it's all tamariki in the lower 10 % who end up in CYPS the lives of these tamariki who end up in cyps for long periods of time is not good at all ka pai.

    It's sad all the wars going on around Papatuanuku at the minute. Its is the tamariki and Wahine who suffer the most in WAR.

    Good on the Wahine from Dancing with the Stars for teaching the elderly people with dementia it helps slow the effects of dementia very cool.

    Ka kite ano

  24. Eco maori 25

    Kia ora te ao Maori news. Condolences to Hapa Jim's Whanau and Tuwharetua for their losses of a great leader.

    I give Eco Maori a sore face to see the resurgence of the interest in the tangata whenua O Aotearoa art of ta moko all Maori culture is getting great interest.

    Auckland butcher of the year is cool a lot of Maori work in the trade some for 3 generations Eco is great at butchering fish my meat butchering knowledge is not as good as my fish skills.

    Ka kite ano.

    Ka kite ano

  25. Eco maori 26

    Kia ora The Am Show.

    The state needs to value Pepe as gifts from God to me that's what they are.

    Bank fees the banks are creaming it just for a computer transactions. 5 billion over 5 years. It is good that other players are coming into that market of changing currency the internet is making many industries honest. I feared that the banks would interfere in crypto currency's hence I didn't buy any but the tech companies will bring down the cost of putea transportation lending rates ect.

    GENETIC engineering a big no from Eco Maori on that if we do what America wants on that subject all our high value customers will leave. There are to many unanswered questions on that subject. Its not like the companies who are pushing that shit have a honest reputation look at monstat and dupont and other companies sell shit that they know harm people they just bury the data under a pile of cash .

    I say that the people who receive the Pepe that are up lifted by the state who are most often grandparents should be given more money to care for the Pepe it cost a lot of money to raise a child people will treat Pepe like a taonga.

    Good on you Nikki for having a month free from Alcohol detox the system.

    Antonio and David Out Rageous fortunes was a great series and The West's to I also like the American show Shame Less it gives a insight of how the common people all around the Papatuanuku have to battle to survive.

    The Maori Council has been voicing their concerns about CYPs for many years now there voices are finally be heard through all the naysayers bullshit.

    Ka kite ano

  26. greywarshark 28

    This sort of campaign does made me sick. Poor people with the problems that arise from poor diet and not much money and opportunity to properly supervise the food and drink intake of their family, are not being given the attention and assistance they need.

    Meanwhile there is a lobby for the middle class and the older age group that wants expensive medication to extend life beyond what would be considered reasonable and kind. They are attacking pharmac relentlessly to spend money on them, while ignoring the facts about the country's lack of funds for essential things like health, and why, and what is needed to fix it.


  27. greywarshark 29

    Something beautiful to look at for a change from the usual suspects.


    Another title for NZ equestrian 9:37 am today

    New Zealand's world number one ranked eventer Tim Price has added another top trophy to the cabinet, winning the Luhmuhlen Horse Trials in Germany.

    Tim Price rides Ascona M.


    Price's wife, Jonelle, won the event last year.

    Tim and his grey mare Ascona M picked up time penalties in the showjumping but still finished 2.1 penalty points ahead of runner-up Tom McEwen of Great Britain.

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