The freedom to insult

Written By: - Date published: 5:37 pm, June 15th, 2019 - 149 comments
Categories: act, Christchurch Attack, david seymour, law, law and "order", terrorism, uncategorized, you couldn't make this shit up - Tags:

A 0.4% of the electorate party is looking to increase its reach by proposing a rather strange thing to advocate for, the absolute right for people to insult.

From Radio New Zealand:

Leader David Seymour said the government was planning to restrict speech laws, and his party’s new Freedom to Speak Bill would repeal parts of the Act and the Summary Offences Act which makes insulting and offensive speech unlawful.

Mr Seymour said the Human Rights Commission had failed to defend the country’s most “basic right”, and he wanted it to be abolished.

Speaking on TV3’s Newshub Nation today, Mr Seymour said while it should be a crime to incite or threaten violence, no one should be punished for insulting speech.

“What’s more important is that we don’t go down a path that the UK has been down where people can have the police come around to their door and potentially arrest them – and have actually detained people just for sending a tweet.”

Yes there is a theoretical jail sentence attached to offensive speech under the Summary Offences Act 1981 but it has to be speech that is likely in the circumstances to cause violence against persons or property to start or continue.

And there is an offence of causing harm by posting a digital communication, but the poster has to intend harm, the message has to be the sort that will cause harm to an ordinary person in the position of the victim and it has to actually cause harm, 

So should “just sending a tweet” ever result in an arrest?

How about if the tweet had a picture of a crossbow with the caption “We are ready for civil war, are you?”  Or what about branding an MP as a “traitor” and telling her to “remember what happened to Jo Cox so be careful”.

Or what if the recipient suffers from epilepsy and you send him a gif of a strobe light with the intent that you trigger an epileptic episode and actually trigger an episode?

Or how about offering money by tweet for someone to be killed?

I suspect Seymour’s response would be “snowflakes”.  But in any civilised rule of law system this sort of behaviour should never be tolerated.

In a perhaps unfortunate coincidence an idiot was arrested outside the Christchurch High Court this week for offensive behaviour, to wit the insulting of some of the victims of the Mosque shooting.

From stuff:

A man arrested and charged with disorderly behaviour after making racist comments towards Christchurch mosque attack victims outside court on Friday has been released on bail.

Rodrick Wayne Woods, 33, was charged with behaving in an offensive manner and was granted bail to reappear in the Christchurch District Court on June 28. He did not enter a plea.

Police alleged he said something offensive to people who were giving a television interview outside the court house in Lichfield St.

He was arrested under the very section that Seymour is talking about repealing.  This incident shows how bizarre Act’s proposal is.  Who in their right mind would change the law to allow neo fascists to insult others because of their ethnicity?

149 comments on “The freedom to insult ”

    • woodart 1.1

      if seymour insulted me, and I used the "mental health patient" get of jail free card, can I give him a damn good thrashing and be let off?

      • fustercluck 1.1.1

        No, you may not. Responding to speech with violence is a crime. The fascist far left, i.e., the National Socialists, in Germany did this and look where it led.

        • Dukeofurl 1.1.1.1

          Germany had 2 socialist left wing parties , The KPD and SPD. The facists were far right, always have been.

          Your historical facts are wrong.

          The facists actually used the defamation laws in the 1920s against newspapers and journalists who told the truth about them, helped by sympathetic judges. Later they just bust into the offices and smashed up the printing presses

          • Foreign Waka 1.1.1.1.1

            Thank you Dukeofurl, it is so unfortunate that NZ has not got a proper history class thought in its schools, neither their own nor the world. It will lead to a repeat of the past that others have already shown how it ends. There is a difference between being right or being righteous.

          • Matthew Whitehead 1.1.1.1.2

            Just to disambiguate- the modern SPD from the Bundesrepublik is not really "socialist" in that sense, they are social democrats, ie. a labour-oriented organization, not post-capitalists. The East German branch of the party was forced into a merger with the KPD to become the SED, (Socialist Unity Party- other client states that had allowed two-party elections had sometimes had poor results for the communist-backed party, which would have been the KPD, so a new one-party policy was adopted) which then was succeeded by the PDS, (Party of Democratic Socialism) which post-reunification merged with WASG (Labour and Social Justice – the Electoral Alternative) to become Die Linke, (“The Left”) and is the second "red" in news stories about a possible "Green-red-red" coalition in Germany. (although they're usually diagrammed as a purple-red to disambiguate from the SPD, which arguably had prior claim on their official red colour when they reunified into the Bundesrepublik or German Federal Republic)

        • Psycho Milt 1.1.1.2

          The fascist far left, i.e., the National Socialists…

          There really are some very special kinds of stupid out there…

        • Gabby 1.1.1.3

          Nice try cluckaduck.

        • Matthew Whitehead 1.1.1.4

          Fascists called themselves socialists because it was popular to be a socialist at the time. Authoritarian movements have a long history with co-opting other group's labels (and symbols- look into the hindu origins of the Swastika, for instance. I once ended up explaining to an upset young jewish colleague why an Indian acquaintance of mine was "allowed to use that name") so as to make it harder for areas they would like to colonize to organize against them because they get stuck in debates about whether and how to re-brand, or what to call the people co-opting their identity. It's like they're stuck doing populism by reference to everyone else in public culture.

  1. Stuart Munro. 2

    Meh – most basic right is equality before the law – frequently honoured in the breach.

    The RWNJ only love speech because it doesn't cost anything.

  2. Kat 3

    “Silly little boy”

  3. RedLogix 4

    Give the state more powers and it's not always obvious how they're going to be used. Just over the Tasman:

    Meanwhile, even more powers the new laws granted to the Government have been dramatically and publicly put into action.

    It appears police conducted last week's media raids using new secrecy laws contained within the foreign interference legislation, which change Parts 5, 6 and 7 of the Crimes Act.

    The legislation says the new secrecy laws "appropriately criminalise leaks of harmful information while also protecting freedom of speech".

    The definitions of "harmful information" are broad — for example, "loss of confidence or trust in the Australian Government by an overseas government or organisation".

    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-06-15/how-our-foreign-influence-laws-have-undermined-democracy/11212848

  4. Sanctuary 5

    Seymour is disgusting opportunist who sees political salvation in the massacre of fifty people.

    He is also completely politically irrelevant.

    I say speak no more of this pathetic and desperate man.

    • Muttonbird 5.1

      Yep. Who of sound mind would seek to encourage and protect white supremacists just weeks after the unprecedented mass murder of 51 people by a white supremacist.

      Who else but the tone-deaf David Seymour.

      And just whose votes is he trying to win with this sort of backward thinking? The votes of people who are unwelcome in this country as far as I can tell. They can piss off to Australia where they belong.

      • fustercluck 5.1.1

        If you do not protect the free speech of those you abhor, you do not have free speech.

      • MickeyBoyle 5.1.2

        So only racists believe in free speech?

        • Muttonbird 5.1.2.1

          Racists seem most upset with the scrutiny. There are some other hand-wringers in there for whatever reason.

          And it’s pretty gross for racists to highjack the concept of free speech in order to further their destructive divisiveness.

      • Foreign Waka 5.1.3

        Wakey wakey – sometimes others can do the dirty work if you want totalitarianism by other means. Freedom has a price and sometimes one has to look beyond to recognize what the meaning of that word is. Millions have died to defend free speech, it does not mean selective free speech or only free speech if you agree. Democracy as we know it is based on it and a test of arguments for either side. Take this away and you are left with one thought, one leader, one idea – and what do you call this?

        • Muttonbird 5.1.3.1

          Gawd. Why so paranoid?

        • McFlock 5.1.3.2

          We already limit speech that is harmful.

          Not just incitement, but things like "I'm a doctor" and "this arsenic potion is safe to drink" and so on.

          I guess we're already there /sarc

      • SHG 5.1.4

        Who of sound mind would seek to encourage and protect white supremacists just weeks after the unprecedented mass murder of 51 people by a white supremacist.

        Those of sound mind, obviously.

        • Muttonbird 5.1.4.1

          White supremacists won't be appeased, only emboldened. I would have thought this lesson might have been learned some time ago.

  5. Cricklewood 6

    For every good reason to have a law like this there will be an unintended consequence down the line as per Red's post up there.

    Better not to have them as sooner or later they will be misused by an authoritarian state.

  6. WeekendWarrior 7

    MS, most of the examples you listed were incitements of violence – something which you directly quote Seymour as saying should still be a crime?

    I have no issues with Seymour fighting this, it is a slippery slope when Governments over-reach in this area.

    Under this law, will I still be able to insult anti-vaxxers? And have them insult me in return? How about when I insult flat earthers? Scientologists?

    Or does the Government/Police get to decide what is insulting on our behalf?

    • mickysavage 7.1

      WW I was responding to his comment "and have actually detained people just for sending a tweet" to show that just sending a tweet can be very sinister.

      I am actually fine with protection of insults. It is insulting the families of people who have been murdered by right wing extremists that I draw the line at.

      • fustercluck 7.1.1

        Insulting the families of murder victims is a complete asshole move. But once you make being an asshole a crime, we will all be criminals at some point. Then it is just the whim of the state that separates you from prison. I disagree, Micky. Even the disgusting speech that insults murder victims families must be protected if free speech means anything.

        • Dukeofurl 7.1.1.1

          "we will all be criminals at some point" – ah the slippery slope analogy.

          of course it only applies when you think it should

        • Lucy 7.1.1.2

          Why must insulting a person in their grief be protected? Particularly if the insult is about their religion. This is more than a dick move, it is like the people who protest at funerals of people who died of Aids – they may let them do that in America but that is not free speech. It is a level of abuse and the least that should happen is that they get removed by the police! Free speech does have consequences and unfortunately one of the consequences is the rise of stupid people yelling down all other opinions.

          • SHG 7.1.1.2.1

            Why must insulting a person in their grief be protected? Particularly if the insult is about their religion.

            What the fuck sort of retarded question is this

        • Jenny - How to Get there? 7.1.1.3

          Fustercluck if you truly believe there should be no limits to free speech; Here is an experiment for you to try,

          Go up to a police officer and start using profanities.

          Go on, I dare you.

          Or is the right to insult and abuse others that you say you support only reserved to used against the powerless.

          NZ police may want a word with Greer

          August 24, 2003

          Germaine Greer may find herself under arrest when she returns to New Zealand next month for the first time in 30 years – for failing to pay court costs over a conviction for swearing in public.

          Ms Greer, 64, has not paid about $40 in court costs following her 1972 conviction after she said "bullshit" and "f—" during an Auckland Town Hall meeting.

          Police confirmed there was a "possibility" the Australian-born feminist could be arrested on the warrant for her jailing…..

          https://www.smh.com.au/world/nz-police-may-want-a-word-with-greer-20030824-gdha7v.html

          One more thing Fustercluck, if you truly do believe in there being no limits to free speech, why do you censor yourself, by using a euphemism for your pseudonym?

          Could it be that you are a hypocrite?

          In practice why do you limit yourself?

          Could it be that you actually do believe that there are limits to free speech?

          • Jenny - How to Get there? 7.1.1.3.1

            Talking of self censorship.

            Last night TVNZ news at 6, gave a report on the attack launched against a Japanese owned oil tanker in the Gulf of Hormuz while the Japanese Prime Minister was in Iran.

            Not once did TVNZ News at 6 report the fact that the Japanese owners and crew of the crippled oil tanker disputed the US version of events, that the tanker was crippled by limpet mines placed there by the Iranians.

            Probably even worse was Stuff.co.nz censoring this story, along with its embarrassing eye witness evidence contrary to the US version of events, completely.

            The Sydney Morning Herald was not nearly so cowardly and sychophantic towards the US as the New Zealand media.
            Possibly because as the SMH reported, this is the number 1 trending story in the world.

            Japanese ship owner contradicts US account of how tanker was attacked

            By Simon Denyer

            June 15, 2019 — 10.09am

            Tokyo: The owner of a Japanese tanker attacked in the Strait of Hormuz on Thursday has offered a different account of the nature of the attack than that provided by the United States….

            Yutaka Katada, president of Kokuka Sangyo, the Japanese company operating one of two oil tankers attacked near the Strait of Hormuz.

            Yutaka Katada, president of Kokuka Sangyo, the Japanese company operating one of two oil tankers attacked near the Strait of Hormuz.CREDIT:AP

            The incident in the Gulf of Oman has compounded the already simmering hostilities in what’s possibly the world’s most pivotal maritime corridor.

            "The crew are saying it was hit with a flying object. They say something came flying towards them, then there was an explosion, then there was a hole in the vessel," he told reporters. "Then some crew witnessed a second shot."

            https://www.smh.com.au/world/middle-east/japanese-ship-owner-contradicts-us-account-of-how-tanker-was-attacked-20190615-p51xzz.html

            So much for free speech in New Zealand when our mainstream media and journalists are so craven or bowed that they refuse to report this story properly, reporting only the US version of events, or not at all.

        • Jenny - How to Get there? 7.1.1.4

          Right Wingers like Fustercluck and David Seymour scream like stuck pigs over free speech for fascists and bigots, but are completely silent in the face of open censorship, by the mainstream media of any evidence that contradicts the US pro-war narrative against Iran.

  7. What's depressing is that that it actually needs pointing out that it shouldn't be a criminal offence to insult or offend someone. We had no business making it a criminal offence in the first place – now we get to have people like David Seymour holding the moral high ground. Thanks, National.

    How about if the tweet had… etc.

    Incitement to violence shouldn't ever be protected speech and would remain an offence even if we removed the sections about insult and offence from the HRA.

    • RedLogix 8.1

      That's exactly the point, it's impossible to say anything meaningful without offending someone. Hell this place is evidence enough of that.

      • mickysavage 8.1.1

        Heh.

        • In Vino 8.1.1.1

          Yeah, how come this website doesn't have a prominently displayed disclaimer pointing out that comments may cause offence, and that parental guidance is recommended, if not post-trauma therapy?

          • lprent 8.1.1.1.1

            I can't fit everything into the front page.

            Anyone who doesn't read the site policy really shouldn't be on the site.

            I suppose that I could summarize it to a front page summary…

            Beware: arseholes will be persecuted – read the policy before commenting.

            But as we all know – all arseholes will assume it only means the other guys. Not them…

            • In Vino 8.1.1.1.1.1

              I was going to say, 'Yes, they are a rotten lot.'

              But on second thoughts… smiley

  8. Rae 9

    You know, in an ideal world, he would be right, because in an ideal world there would not be any hate speech, in an ideal world we would all happily live by "do unto others".

    But we don't.

  9. observer 10

    It's a mistake to take Seymour's proposal in good faith.

    A private member's bill can only progress if the MP tries to build cross-party consensus. Louisa Wall did this with marriage equality, Sue Bradford did it with smacking, and (oh irony!) Seymour has done it quite successfully so far with euthanasia/assisted dying.

    But those are genuine attempts to pass a law. Which is why the proponent aims for 61.

    In this case Seymour wants the very opposite. He knows that National will not support him (for one thing, they'd have to undo their own legislation). He doesn't need the bill to pass, doesn't even need it drawn in the ballot.

    He just wants to repeat his gun law performance – act the martyr, and say "I am the courageous hero, alone." Discussing the theory and practice of balancing freedoms is a good for law seminars, but it has nothing whatsoever to do with ACT , whose real dream is not of Sweet Liberty, but a precious percentage point in the polls.

  10. McFlock 11

    Hate speech isn't speech that is merely offensive (although we do restrict offensive speech simply because it's easier than processing everyone for the resulting brawl).

    Hate speech is about domination, subjugation, and eradication. It's used by cowards incite others without actually giving them direct instruction. It's used by bullies to threaten others while keeping the very definite threat implicit. And it's about reinforcing the bonds of a homogenous group with criminal intent.

    Saying hate speech is insulting is like saying the world heavyweight title fight is an excellent upper arm and core body workout. It sort of misses the point, in order to make it seem harmless.

    • RedLogix 11.1

      Of course hate speech exists, no-one is quibbling that. The problem is … who defines it?

      It's not like there isn't a problem here, but the proposed cure is much worse than the disease.

      • McFlock 11.1.1

        The legislature defines it and then the courts assess whether specific instances meet that definition.

        That's basically how laws work.

        The question is whether the current definitions hit that spot between being narrow enough to protect people expressing opinions without intent to foment violence while being wide enough to keep white supremacists, fascists, and other fuckwits marginalist fuckwits on the fringes of society (rather than in the fucking legislature).

        I have no problem with this line being reviewed by the legislature and law society every so often. It does work both ways – removing sedition from the Crimes Act, for example.

        • RedLogix 11.1.1.1

          Why just white supremacists? Why just fascists and not marxists? See you've already produced a list that plenty of people would have strong reason to disagree with. As for fuckwits … good luck getting your magic legislation to pin that one down; it seems just provocatively broad.

          Sedition was interesting, how about all the possibilities around blasphemy? Now there's a can of ecclesiastical worms if there ever was. devil

          • McFlock 11.1.1.1.1

            Blasphemous libal was also removed from the books after a legislative review.

            There are 51 reasons I chose white supremacists and not marxists. You might have read about it in the papers.

            • RedLogix 11.1.1.1.1.1

              Consult your 20th century history, marxists hold the records man.

              • McFlock

                Maybe, but I'd need to use something other than the wallplanner in my office to look up the date.

                Genocidal marxists and Māori supremacists wanting to exterminate all white men would come under the purview of present and future legislation, but they're not the problem at the moment, are they?

                And even if they weren't covered by any post-march15 legislation, what's the problem? Is it unfair that nazis can't be nazis if marxists are allowed to say the bourgoise are parasites on society? Is it really a big civil rights issue if white supremacists (the most stupidly redundant of the supremacists) can't have their klan rally? Why would anyone care? It's not even a slippery slope issue, because in that situation the apparent unfairness is that the slope isn't slippery enough. Hey, if those other groups become a problem, we can legislate again. Laws aren't immutable.

                • RedLogix

                  I note that you had no problems including nazis and fascists even though I'm pretty sure their big push doesn't land on your wall planner either.

                  My point is simple, you came up with a list that suits your view of the world. Why do you imagine your view would always prevail?

                  Because as plenty of others have pointed out, if the radical left wants to play this speech criminalisation game, why do you think the extreme right won't come to the net and serve it right on back. They've already done it with identity politics.

                  • McFlock

                    I came up with a list that included the three near-identical groups that are in resurgence and highly active in NZ and similar nations right now.

                    And you know what, genocidal marxists also should be covered by legislation. If they turn up in the town centre, I hope I'd support punching them, too. But they're not the fucking problem at the moment, are they.

                    • RedLogix

                      resurgence and highly active in NZ

                      Ever wondered why? Nothing to do with this Universal White Guilt the left has been thrusting down everyone's throats for several decades do you think?

                    • McFlock

                      Oh, suck it up, snowflake.

                      Even if it is all the fault of left wing identity politics and has nothing to do with right wing politicians and media magnates getting material benefit from a paranoid populace, going back to the days when men could rape their wives, homosexuality was illegal, and teachers beat Māori students who used their own language is still too high a price to pay for fear of some pimpled inadequate with a gun. The better option is still to ban hate speech.

                    • RedLogix

                      Snowflake = Racist anti-white hate speech term

                      How easy was that? Just as well I'm not allowed to be offended.

                      Humans have two forms of cooperation, a very ancient one based on genetic affinity, and a much more recent one based on reciprocity and social cohesion. When you cancel the latter, they will always default to the former.

                    • McFlock

                      Except that skin tone snd ethnicity have little if anything to do with genetic affinity.

                      You want to demonstrate how calling you a snowflake is hate speech rather than just offending someone who's overly sensitive about imaginary problems?

                    • New view []

                      Have you noticed that on this website in my opinion, most try to take any view that is not their own as a personal insult. What you think of Seymour as a person or politician is not the point. The point is that you don’t miss freedom until you don’t have it. Seymour started the conversation because it suits his politics but the conversation needs to be had.

                    • solkta

                      @RL

                      with this Universal White Guilt

                      This is such a funny concept because only racist people feel guilt about what their 'race' has done. They create the idea through their own perception. The rest of us who don't buy into this 'race' bullshit just see social relations that aren't fair and seek to change them.

                    • McFlock

                      The point is that you don’t miss freedom until you don’t have it.

                      But that's only half the point. The other half of the point is that without some curbs on freedom, some dickhead will ruin it for the rest of us.

                      I don't have the freedom to practise medicine however I want because snake-oil hoaxters kill people, or use builder's silicone to do cosmetic surgery. I don't have the freedom to drive a car at certain speeds because some dickheads take out pedestrians and other drivers. And the country is taking another look at the line of free speech because some dickheads like to encourage other dickheads to shoot people based on creed or colour or sexual orientation.

                    • New view []

                      The point is in some countries restricting speech by law is a tool used by those in power to stay in power. We use hate speech as the example but it’s not a big step for certain Governments to use those same laws to inhibit speech critical of those Governments.Maybe Seymour is looking at the bigger picture.

                    • McFlock

                      And in some countries hate speech was not restricted and the fuckers ended up in charge – actually becoming some of the countries you mentioned, as it happens.

                    • New view []

                      Ah but at least where those fuckers are , those who disagree don’t disappear in large numbers as they do in some parts of South America,Asia and elsewhere.

                    • McFlock

                      No, the nazis and fascists were free to speak in the 1920s. Look what happened.

                      And even in the US today, they are literally at the stage of putting law-abiding people they don't like in overcrowded internment camps, with deaths resulting.

                      Oh, not to mention people being shot in nz.

                      So fuck those guys. And if genocidal marxists also get scooped up, good.

                    • Newview []

                      No, the Nazis and fascists came to power Because they were popular at the time. Just like Any cult but on a massive scale. Of course the real dirty work was done out of public sight. In countries like China it’s done by stealth. You vote the leader in for life then he changes the law so nobody can speak out of turn. Plenty of people think trump’s an arse hole including me but in the USA you can say what you like if you have the money.

                    • McFlock

                      No, the Nazis and fascists came to power Because they were popular at the time.

                      Which might have been difficult to achieve if particularly H's views of certain groups weren't permitted to be expressed so explicitly.
                      That’s why their salutes are banned to this day – so they don’t regain popularity.

                    • Newview []

                      In H’s Gemany pre 1939, times were really tough. Jews were always unpopular there for many reasons but their worst mistake was to be good with money. They owned businesses and were generally better off than most. That made them even more unpopular. It was then a piece of cake for Hitler to do his dirty work. The Jews were shipped out and nobody missed them. Perfect. . The salutes are symbolism and should be stopped but the damage was already done. H’s hate speech was accepted because Jews were disliked to start with. Plenty of instances of that around now but hate speech does nothing on its own it needs a combination of events to happen. I agree with a lot of what you say but free speech is a complicated issue. We’ll agree to disagree. Good discussion though.

                    • RedLogix

                      Which might have been difficult to achieve if particularly H's views of certain groups weren't permitted to be expressed so explicitly.

                      It's well understood that post-WW1 Germany was deeply stressed by onerous and oppressive armistice terms. There was a real sentiment that Zionist interests in the USA had betrayed Germany and their ongoing national humiliation, rightly or wrongly set up the conditions where many Germans were highly receptive to Hitler's message.

                      Repeating what I said above, humans have two modes of social cooperation, one very ancient one we share with primates based on genetic affiliation, and another much more recent one based on reciprocity, fairness and mutual trust. But these three social virtues do not spring from the human bosom fully formed; quite the contrary they're hard won via frank discussion, painstaking negotiation and the courage to withstand mistakes and betrayals.

                      Think of any truly worthwhile relationship in your life. It's not predicated on the idea that you both think alike, agree on everything and have a nice safe unprovocative time together. Quite the opposite, you value it because you know you can argue, compete, contend with each other, give each other endless shit . There is no legislative short-cut to this; you don't get to trust and respect unless you can first talk and find out what the other is really up to.

                    • McFlock

                      yeah nah. You can look at some of the root causes all you want, that's not an argument against options that might stop it.

                      As for your ideas on social cooperation, I'm not really sure how accurate they are or how useful they are even if they're broadly accurate. Nice story, but probably won't change a damned thing.

                    • McFlock

                      Wow. Some nice victim-blaming stereotypes and then an "agree to disagree". Classy.

                  • Jenny - How to Get there?

                    So Red, would you walk up to a police officer and use profanity and racial epithets and expect not to be arrested?

                    Tell me this Red:

                    1/ Would you support the right of someone to verbally denigrate a uniformed police officer in racial terms as 'free speech'?

                    2/ Would you support the right of racists and white supremacists who are offended my Maori or a Muslim in a Police uniform, calling them by racist epithets, as 'free speech'?

                    3/ Do you think such people shouldn't be arrested for such behaviour?

                    4/ Do you think such people should be arrested if they said the same things to someone who wasn't a police officer?

                    5/ Do you think racist views that shouldn't be said before and about a police officer, without risking arrest, should be allowed to be said and about, powerless minority groups and individuals, because you know, 'Free Speech'?

                    My guess; like most veiled bigots, and the racist bullies you think should have the right to abuse minorities, that you are a coward, and will refuse to answer.

                    • If you think cops don't get called some ugly shit on occasion, you must have led a very sheltered life. They generally ignore it because being an arsehole isn't a crime. Nor should it become one, because "So who's the asshole here?" is a question sometimes not easily answered.

                    • Incognito

                      If I were RL I’d refuse to take the bait. I think you’re way OTT with your personal slurs aimed at RL. I hope you can see the irony. My advice is to tone it down.

                    • Jenny - How to Get there?

                      Just as you say Psycho, cops get called some ugly shit. You must have lived a very privileged life if you don't know that people get arrested for it. Just as you say Psycho the police can choose not to arrest people for it. But in my experience the police are more likely to arrest you for it than not. (And in a rather rough manner I might add). Just you try it and see. Though you are probably more likely to get away with verbally abusing a police officer or traffic cop if you are dressed in a dinner suit and you are Bob Jones coming from a fancy dinner party, than a PI factory hand from South Auckland dressed in shorts and singlet coming from the pub.

                      The fact is that 'assholes' (your term), which I take to mean racist, bigots and white supremacists, generally give figures in authority a lot more respect than they give to powerless and vulnerable minorities. It's the nature of their assholery by definition. Boil it all down and racists, fascists, and white supremacists are bullies. While none of us are allowed to freely verbally abuse police officers David Seymour thinks that racists and fascists should be free to abuse, (generally powerless and vulnerable), minorities who don't have the power to arrest them, or otherwise defend themselves from such abuse.

                    • Jenny - How to Get there?

                      The real irony here Incognito is that Red is arguing for the right to insult minorities, and you say that I should tone it down by merely challenging him to answer some straight questions, or prove himself a coward. Normally I wouldn't, but I knew that he wouldn't reply and he has proved me right. By proving me right, you could say he has insulted himself.

                    • Incognito []

                      I don’t think RL is arguing that at all but that’s a difference of opinion (or interpretation).

                      I don’t think you were “merely challenging him to answer some straight questions”. They were loaded to the max. You don’t get to dictate the outcome of discussion or debate here by branding another commenter “a coward” if they don’t follow your demand. If you are or were genuinely interested in his answers to certain questions, you could or would have asked in a different way without ‘the ransom’, IMHO.

                      This isn’t some kind of weird point-scoring duel as to who’s right and who’s wrong. Again, what is the point of all this?

                      The ‘logic’ of your last sentence is really lost on me but I sincerely doubt RL feels self-insulted by not answering your “straight questions”. Would it make you feel better? I don’t get the point.

                    • RedLogix

                      Normally I wouldn't, but I knew that he wouldn't reply and he has proved me right.

                      That's because I have been watching a truly fascinating new HBO miniseries on Chernobyl. It's about the consequences of lies, or more accurately, about what happens when people cannot speak the truth.

                      Incidentally your questions are easily answered. You frame freedom of speech as a 'right to offend' the weak and vulnerable. I view it as a responsibility to speak the truth.

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9APLXM9Ei8

                    • Jenny - How to Get there?

                      RedLogix

                      17 June 2019 at 12:03 am

                      ……You frame freedom of speech as a 'right to offend' the weak and vulnerable. I view it as a responsibility to speak the truth.

                      Indeed, now we are getting down to the nub of the argument.

                      But what I find striking is that right wingers who are very vocal in defending the right to make racist, and fascist comment as 'free speech'. Are silent in cases of blatant censorship by the corporate media.
                      Especially if this censorship, and lying by omission, is in the service of premeditated mass murder. (ie war.)

                      Your silence is deafening.

                      Jenny – How to Get there? 7.1.1.3.1

                      16 June 2019 at 5:04 pm

                      Talking of self censorship.

                      Last night TVNZ news at 6, gave a report on the attack launched against a Japanese owned oil tanker in the Gulf of Hormuz while the Japanese Prime Minister was in Iran.

                      Not once did TVNZ News at 6 report the fact that the Japanese owners and crew of the crippled oil tanker disputed the US version of events, that the tanker was crippled by limpet mines placed there by the Iranians…..

                    • RedLogix

                      Indeed, now we are getting down to the nub of the argument.

                      Maybe we are, but speaking in a way that could offend people just because you can is very bad manners. Every right comes with responsibilities.

                      As for the 'complicit in the silence of the corporate media' thing … your observation has some kernel of truth. The moral system of left wingers places a prime emphasis on empathy and avoiding harm, while right wingers cluster this together with other values such as duty and loyalty. Thus they're less likely to challenge the conventional narrative, especially when it's contentious.

                      As for the US/Iran story; everyone knows the corporate media is part of the propaganda machine, at least at some level. If you need me to say so … well I just did. This incident really does trigger skepticism, and while I think there is a 50% chance Iran is the culprit, the information we have is well short of conclusive. And at this morning it looks like there is not much appetite to attack Iran on the part of Europe and others.

                      The USA is discovering that having slaughtered it's moral authority over Iraq and Syria, followed by Trump's reckless disregard for the international community … that the days when POTUS could say 'jump' and the rest of the West would reply 'low orbit or geostationary?' are fading. Except of course for the craven pack of Tories in the UK who are desperate for a post-Brexit UK/USA trade deal.

                • Foreign Waka

                  McFlock – This is not about a moment but about a framework under which a society works. In other words what is good for the goose must be good for the gander. If you separate any group and isolate them by legislation it is no better than any other totalitarian state. Whether you agree with their idea or not is irrelevant. The slippery slope starts if the law is being used to design discrimination of any kind.

                  • McFlock

                    But if the restriction is simply on hate speech and symbols designed to evoke hate, all that slippery slope bullshit disappears.

                    And listing specific groups doesn't work anywy – they just change their names.

                    • RedLogix

                      You keep saying that as if 'hate speech' was a well defined, non-slippery thing.

                    • Gosman

                      McFlock's probably got an easy solution. All the government needs to do is appoint Mcflock as the Commisioner in charge of determining what is and isn't hate speech. Job done.

                    • McFlock

                      That's the role of legislators. Usually section 2 of any act of parliament.

                      Problem solved.

                    • RedLogix

                      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_speech

                      Here for example is the definition Iceland came up with:

                      Anyone who publicly mocks, defames, denigrates or threatens a person or group of persons by comments or expressions of another nature, for example by means of pictures or symbols, for their nationality, colour, race, religion, sexual orientation or gender identity, or disseminates such materials, shall be fined or imprisoned for up to 2 years.]

                      Under this definition The Standard would have to be closed immediately and quite a few of it's regulars imprisoned. Including you. The other day you mocked me as a 'snowflake', clearly a term intended to denigrate 'whiteness', intended to subjugate me as 'weak' and worthy only of 'extermination' as I melt away in the heat of your contempt. Or at least I could claim that is how I felt about it, and in law that is all that might matter.

                      This is one of the reasons why in recent years I have very much refrained from personal attacks; I could see this kind of legislation coming down the tracks at us and the potential for it's perverse misuse.

                    • McFlock

                      lolna snowflake is about your fragility, not your colour.

                      Either way, if the legislature decides that wikipedia can be cut&pasted into an interpretation section, we've got bigger problems than anything you've raised.

                    • RedLogix

                      What you claim is irrelevant; under any meaningful hate speech legislation it is how offended the target is that counts. How could it be otherwise? Imagine if real Nazi's could claim they only intended to use the swastika as 'as an ancient cultural symbol of spirituality and divinity' and everyone else was just being 'fragile' by overreacting to it.

                      And take the time to read that wiki link; I only pasted one example that caught my eye of just how very broad some of these hate speech definitions are, and how very easily they can be perversely misused.

                    • greywarshark

                      I'm concerned that it will cut out the passion required to seek truth and denigrate the 'grey' people who glide on grease saying everything is pretty good. A rant, a recoil from such slithery snakes and ambidextrous dealers become politicians desires strong language sufficient to wake NZs from their Rip van Winkle slumbers.

                      SEX EVERYONE. Oh nos I didn't expect The Spanish Inquisition.

                    • McFlock

                      Some are broad, some are narrow, some have nothing to do with insult or causing offence at all.

                      I'm sure that many or all of these issues will be covered in the review. But what we have now isn't working.

                    • RedLogix

                      What evidence do you have that your proposed cure will be any better than what we currently have?

                      The Soviet Union is a vivid example of what happens when people cannot speak their truth, when everything has to conform an officially approved 'safe' narrative.

                      Don't get me wrong, hate speech is real. But the correct way to deal with it is contempt, mockery and robust rebuttal. Hate speech laws explicitly shut this down.

                    • Gosman

                      Why isn't it working (i.e. what makes you think our existing laws are not working)?

                    • McFlock

                      What evidence do you have that your proposed cure will be any better than what we currently have?

                      I'm happy for it to be left up to the legislature to do a more in-depth analysis on the issues involved. Maybe they will say this is the best we can do – but I doubt it.

                      Why isn't it working (i.e. what makes you think our existing laws are not working)?

                      Fair enough Gos – your question was answered within a link within a link in the post, but that would require more good faith interest in the post to find than you have ever displayed. Read and be enlightened.

              • arkie

                @RL so by 'Marxists' you actually mean 'Communist Regimes'. Marx was a theorist writing about the costs of capitalism.

                I wonder what you think of the millions of people who starved due being unable to afford to eat throughout the 20th Century?

                • RedLogix

                  Marx was a theorist writing about the costs of capitalism.

                  If that was all he wrote about, he'd be a left wing hero. But it wasn't, and disconnecting Marxist cause from the subsequent catastrophic impacts of Communism is a transparent ploy really.

                  I wonder what you think of the millions of people who starved due being unable to afford to eat throughout the 20th Century?

                  If famine was unique to the 20th Century and just capitalist countries, you'd have a point. Moreover after 70 odd years of intense globalisation since the end of WW2, we've reached the point where starvation is now uncommon and more people are free from the threat of it than in all of human history.

                  • arkie

                    And yet your vilification of the 'Marxist cause' transparently shows your lack of historic understanding of the left wing in general.

                    After 70 odd years of globalisation we still have a world of stark and growing inequity and dying planet. We throw away tonnes of food, spoiled of shop shelves, while children go hungry, houses sitting empty while people freeze sleeping rough. And anyone without access to money will feel this threat. These are just some of the costs of Capitalism.

                    • RedLogix

                      shows your lack of historic understanding of the left wing in general.

                      No it shows that I don't pretend Mao, Stalin and the rest of that vile crew weren't just 'misguided'. Until the left can bring itself to fully repudiate them as we demanded the right repudiate the Nazi's, our moral authority will be on shakey grounds.

                      After 70 odd years of globalisation we still have a world of stark and growing inequity

                      Goalpost shifting, first it was starvation, now it's something a lot more slippery 'inequity'.

                      It's not hard to argue that as narrow materialistic ideologies, both Capitalism and Communism are proven failures in their puritan form, yet elements of both are deeply entwined into the system we currently have.

                      Time I would argue to expand the domain of solutions if we want to make progress.

                    • arkie

                      @RL

                      You actually read Marx? You parrot JBP so assiduously I assume, like him, haven't bothered to. Where are the Maoists to repudiate? Where do I find these Stalinists that the Left must reject?

                      It's not hard to argue that as narrow materialistic ideologies, both Capitalism and Communism are proven failures in their puritan form, yet elements of both are deeply entwined into the system we currently have.

                      Time I would argue to expand the domain of solutions if we want to make progress.

                      Yes, agreed, and my argument is that part of that expansion of the 'domain of solutions' involves reading Marx.

                    • RedLogix

                      I read the Gulag Archipeligo in the 70's when it was first published; and unlike anyone else here, I’ve made a point of visiting gulag sites, the museum at Perm and I’ve worked in the Kolyma region. It's JBP who's channeling RedLogix.

                      It is completely illegal to endorse or display anything about the Nazi's in Germany, by contrast Mao and Stalin and both are still revered in their respective countries. Stalin still lies in state in Red Square, and the CCP still derives much of it's historic and moral authority from Mao.

                      Trying to pretend that Marx has nothing to do with the 20th century communist revolutions is flat out dishonest. I'm happy to acknowledge he was the first to outline the limitations and flaws of capitalism, but as I said above, if he'd stopped there he'd be a hero.

  11. Incognito 12

    This is a great topic to delve into but unfortunately, it is ‘contaminated’ by ACT and others. It would be great to do another post on free speech without the political noise and the boy crying wolf relevance.

  12. Ad 13

    Any political party launching a Freedom to Speak bill the day after the Christchurch mass murder pleaded Not Guilty concerning his freedom of expression within a manifesto of hate twinned with a live publication of 50 New Zealanders being shot to death, takes some balls.

  13. Doogs 14

    Yes incognito, relevance! That’s what it’s all about. Desperately striving to have some value in a world that has moved on leaving his feet firmly stuck in the 1950s. I also love Sanctuary’s comment at 5 – desperate and pathetic. Watching the Newshub interview I was left with the feeling that, probably because the interviewer was female, there were some none too subtle put downs in there. The man infuriates me. There’s always a slight sneer in his presentation, a sort of ‘well, everyone I know thinks like this, what’s wrong with you?’ If the Natz have any shred of nous left they’ll stand a candidate in Epsom next year and consign Seymour to the dustbin of politics.

    • Incognito 14.1

      I don’t mind politicians striving for relevance and I can also understand and thus tolerate cynical politics to some extent but when it crosses into dangerous territory and people might get harmed that’s when I draw a line. Seymour is playing with fire and to some degree, he has to because he needs to get attention and cut through the noise. The problem arises when this might attract enough attention to turn into votes and show up in the (internal) polls, that’s when it starts to get real traction.

      I don’t think National are quite ready to kill off their only ‘friend’.

      • Psycho Milt 14.1.1

        It would be nice if we'd made him irrelevant by not criminalising the expression of opinion in the first place. Various government politicians' expressed views that we should extend the criminalisation of opinion even further, backed up by various influential figures (up to and including at least one university Vice Chancellor, which is in itself quite horrifying) is what's making him so damn relevant – maybe they could stop doing that?

      • Psycho Milt 14.1.2

        Ended up with a duplicate comment for some reason

  14. Jackel 15

    Happy content people with plenty of well-being have no need to insult others. Which is where we're heading isn't it. So I see this bill as irrelevant.

    • Formerly Ross 15.1

      You've apparently never watched 7 Days. It's why David Bain changed his name and moved to Australia. 🙂

  15. Formerly Ross 16

    It seems like I have to say this again: the answer to hate speech is more speech. That some on the Left don't get that is a real concern.

    “The principle of free speech is the bedrock on which free societies are built. It ensures we can, without threat of legal sanction, discuss controversial things in order to sort out good ideas from bad. It is precisely the expression of controversial, and potentially offensive, ideas—not safe or mainstream ones—that the principle of free speech is required to protect.

    People of a similar political stripe to [Jan] Thomas might be unperturbed by the prospect of [Don] Brash facing arrest for expressing his views, but they would do well to consider that their political allies won’t always be in the ascendancy. In another political climate, it might be people like Green MP Julie-Anne Genter facing prosecution for comments about “old white men”.

    How would those of us on the Left feel about being prosecuted for expressing our opinion? Would we be able to burn a flag at a dawn ceremony on Anzac Day a la Valerie Morse without fear of being jailed? I will be putting politics aside and supporting Seymour’s Bill.

    https://www.victoria.ac.nz/news/2019/06/its-not-the-states-role-to-decide-which-ideas-are-right-or-wrong

    • observer 16.1

      *sigh*

      Support Seymour's bill? There is no bill. As I explained above.

      This is how it would play out, in the unlikely event that ACT's numbers could get National into power after the 2020 election:

      Nat leader: "Hi David, I'm offering you a job. Associate Minister for Paper Clips. In return, you will support National on confidence and supply".

      Seymour: "Thanks. But you must also repeal these laws. I have principles!"

      Nat leader: "Forget it. I've made the offer, do you want it, or a Lab/Green government instead? And what will you tell voters in Epsom?".

      Seymour: "It's forgotten already."

      (I mean, either you understand what Seymour is doing, because you know who he is … or you don't. Seymour's *principles* do not exist. He will do whatever National requires, because the only *principle* he will fight for is keeping his job).

    • barry 16.2

      "It seems like I have to say this again: the answer to hate speech is more speech. That some on the Left don't get that is a real concern."

      Except it doesn't work like that. More speech just means more noise and the extremists are most capable of noise. The moderate voices just get lost.

      There have always been voices of hate (not just the right wing racists), but mostly they have just been ignored. the internet has not created the problem, but exacerbated it. Whereas previously the news media could exercise restraint and the extremists (even the well-intentioned social warriors didn't get a platform, now everyone is a publisher.

      So yes laws against certain forms of speech are dangerous, but we do want the most significant social media platforms to control the dialogue a little. I think the current laws are not bad, and I will wait to see what the new proposals are.

      • Formerly Ross 16.2.1

        More speech just means more noise and the extremists are most capable of noise. The moderate voices just get lost.

        That is not a convincing argument, Barry. Our laws are generally made not for the benefit of the noisy. They are usually made after careful consideration. Debate and disagreement are a normal part of everyday life.

  16. Morrissey 17

    Trouble is: if governments stop idiots like Neo-Nazis, NewstalkZzzzB hosts and ACT MPs speaking their minds, they'll stop thoughtful and intelligent people as well.

    • Andre 17.1

      Don't worry, mozzie, your speech will be unaffected since you don't fit any of those categories.

  17. Matthew Whitehead 18

    Seymour is full of shit about this being about freedom of speech. If the Human Rights Act provision on "inciting racial dishamony," which is under-enforced, concerned you on freedom of speech grounds, then you'd surely be absolutely mad about defamation law in New Zealand, (which is literally "making insulting someone a crime") which makes quoting an inaccurate news story grounds for you to be sued.

    Here is Seymour characterizing our law as unfriendly to plaintiffs on defamation:

    https://twitter.com/dbseymour/status/1139849872163475456

    I've previously pointed out that we have wealthy individuals like Bob Jones who make a habit of chilling free speech with defamation lawsuits against perfectly reasonable comments that our law makes difficult to defend as truthful despite being reasonable statements of opinion on uncontested facts.

    If Seymour gave a shit about free speech, he would know our defamation laws are out of balance like he claims our "hate speech" laws (ie. racial disharmony law, as it specifically can only be used for race relations) are.

    Now, that said, I will say that both defamation laws and hate speech laws have a place, that place simply needs to be in balance.

    Defamation is supposed to protect people against "fake news" type attacks on their character. It needs to be relatively strong to do so, but not so strong that a disparity in access to the courts makes it into a system that can bully people into shutting up because they can't afford to front a defense despite absolutely having a case. We need to make summary judgements on defamation much easier, as dismissing mendacious lawsuits at that stage saves most of the lawyers’ costs, and allows defense lawyers to quote a more reasonable figure to those being slapped with STFU suits.

    Hate speech law also has a place- its place is to prevent the intimidatory effect of hate speech. It's reasonable not to criminalize people for "expressing their opinions" in private places. It's not reasonable, however, to allow people to publicly intimidate minorities through bullying behaviour, and sadly, yes, a lot of the stuff people defend with statements like "well that's just my opinion" is indeed in function intimidatory. Now, there should be relatively clear thresholds as to when hate speech or hate crimes laws become active- things like when a violent crime is committed with a motive to target a minority group, or your "just giving your opinions" is an overt incitement to violence are clearly "in," it's just a question of how do we balance leaving enough things "out" that you can reasonably be a dick in public, but also that we fight stochastic terrorism sufficiently that we stop another ChCh attack from happening?

    That is a debate we can have in good faith- if conservatives and right-wingers agree to leave Seymour the fuck out of it, because he's made very clear from his refusal to dump Berry, to his trolling vegetarians and feminists, to his flirting with gun groups after the ChCh attack, that he is absolutely going for the alt-right vote, and thus cannot be trusted to act in good faith.

    • observer 18.1

      Matthew +1

      Lots of "free speech" issues in NZ: defamation, name suppression in courts, ban on election day, ban on TV ads at Easter, Xmas etc …

      All restrict free speech. Some I personally like (election day), some I don't (excessive name suppression of wealthy accused). All debatable in good faith.

      But … None of which Seymour wants to campaign on. Gosh, I wonder why.

      • Matthew Whitehead 18.1.1

        I think we usually get name supression right in the law, it's just a question of whether it's correctly applied by judges. Name suppression has exactly the same purpose as defamition should- to protect you if you are taken to court unjustly and a case is dismissed, so that you don't face reputational damage unreasonably. But again, if a bad call is made on when to give it, or it's combined with things like suppressing mention of prior offenses in court, it can have perverse outcomes in practice.

        Absolutely with you on banning ads on election day- think it's pretty foolish myself, we should just ban them in proximity of polling places instead.

        I do like ad-free days, and I don't think you'd get them without legislation. Remember equity of speech is as important as unrestricted speech is- ads are the rich man's graffiti, except it's illegal to damage them. 😉 It's absolutely a public service to give us a few days of broadcasting without ads plastered through it. If we had some decent content for people to watch on xmas and easter, then it'd be even better. 😉 😉

    • Formerly Ross 18.2

      Matthew,

      You claim it’s unreasonable to publicly intimidate minorities. Hmmm that would presumably mean you’d have to be very careful how and when you criticised white supremacists. Clearly such people are a minority.

      Mark Reason has discussed the importance of free speech as has the commentator I linked to above. If gays have a claim of hate speech against Folau, maybe Folau has a claim of hate speech against those who find his religious views repugnant.

      The debate can become very messy unless one realises that the answer is more speech. Becoming more resilient may also help, and there are professionals who teach people how to be more resilient.

      https://i.stuff.co.nz/sport/opinion/113480455/mark-reason-why-the-israel-folau-case-is-bigger-than-the-rugby-world-cup

      • Matthew Whitehead 18.2.1

        So, this is where we get into fucking semantics and I hate it, so thanks a lot. 😉

        So, for example, do men count as a minority because there's actually less of us than women? I think we'd agree the answer is no. That suggests that when we say a word like "minorities," what we really mean is people who suffer structural oppression, rather than actual groups that are less than 50% of the population.

        But the terms that shorten that particular idea are things people don't understand well. So I say minorities, despite obviously a group being small (like say, TERFs or White Supremacists) doesn't make them automatically oppressed. They can absolutely be small and unpopular because despite them actively trying to enlarge and reinforce existing systemic oppressions, they take what is currently covert (transphobia or racism) and try to make it overt.

        The idea that more speech somehow reverses the effect of incitement to violence, or constant harassment, is just straightforwardly wrong, Ross, and again, when we try to do things like this- I will remind you to google one Renae Maihi- often people get slapped with defamation lawsuits if they are talking about someone rich or powerful. We don't have a right for the oppressed to speak as freely as the oppressor in New Zealand, even under the law, and that's ignoring the fact that it's difficult for women, people of colour, and queer people to maintain platforms. Look at how many have departed or refused to work with even places with arguably good missions, like this site or TBD, because there have been cultural trends (in TS' case) or individuals (in TBD's case) involved that made the environment toxic. Look at how unbalanced the media landscape is in favour of rich, white, cis-straight men. And then get back to me on how you're proposing I get to be heard as much as David Fucking Seymour who can fart about free speech and get straight onto the news while polling in the per milles, but somehow the fact his fellow ACT candidates are openly supporting the most virulent of TERFs and white supremacists never gets covered.

        • Psycho Milt 18.2.1.1

          It would come as news to most feminists that they are trying to "enlarge and reinforce existing systemic oppressions." News to me too, for that matter – can't say I've noticed them doing it.

          • Matthew Whitehead 18.2.1.1.1

            Trans exclusion isn't the subject of this thread so I don't wanna derail it too heavily, so I'll simply say you're assuming facts not in evidence in claiming "most feminists" are okay with exclusionary politics towards trans women. (and from what I've seen, also trying to re-define trans men's identities for them as butch lesbian)

            • Psycho Milt 18.2.1.1.1.1

              As you say, not the subject of this thread, but TERF is a slur, so be careful what you wish for – restrictions on having an opinion may not just apply to opinions you don't like.

              • Matthew Whitehead

                Look, as someone who thinks mainstream feminism is good for men too, I won't tell you what is and isn't feminism because that's not my place, but you have to accept that you can't tell a queer person what is and isn't a hategroup against other queer people, and that I'm not gonna lump them (you?) in with a group (intersectional feminists) I consider to broadly be allies.

                I can't refute your assertion here, because saying "TERF is a slur" is a classic gish gallop move where it takes seconds to say but minutes to refute, including going into the movement's interesting history with colonization of other people's spaces. Now please stop trying to make this thread about anti-trans hate movements. If you need to, just wait until I post something on them, I'm sure I'll find an opportunity.

                • Well, you raised the subject, I was just responding to it. All good, though – my point is that "hate speech" is a subjective term (eg, we're never going to agree when it comes to the term TERF) and criminalising opinion can have unintended consequences.

                  • Matthew Whitehead

                    I made a throwaway reference to Steven Berry's support of that movement, sure, but it's not bringing the issue up for full debate, and I will note last time the topic came up it had an issue similar to the 2016 US elections where it absolutely consumed the entire comments section, and absolutely need to be contained to dedicated threads.

                    • Which is one reason I don't make throwaway references to it on The Standard's comments threads.

                      Any thoughts on how this is one example of the various ways that criminalising opinion might come back to bite us?

                    • McFlock

                      When calling someone a "TERF" gets one put in jail because one's anti-terf mates live-streamed a massacre, I'm not sure I'd be particularly opposed to that.

                    • And if the criteria for criminalising opinion included the requirement that someone live-streamed a massacre in support of that opinion, I'd have no problem with criminalising it. I don't think that's one of the criteria, though.

                    • McFlock

                      Yeah, I'd be a bit irked if it had to wait until after the massacre, too.

                      But we know what happens when we pretend it's just an "opinion" with no further repercussions. So maybe a review of where the line is could be a good idea.

                    • Matthew Whitehead

                      PM- It was a relevant mention as the groups are roughly equivalent in their advocacy against PoC and trans people. It paints a picture of Berry as an unacceptable candidate and proof that Act are unwilling to cut ties with the alt-right, who are absolute fans of what anti-trans groups in NZ are doing. It's inaccurate to simply say he is palling around with white supremacists, as he goes much further than that, to the point where he is on a blocklist for hate accounts in New Zealand now.

                      McFlock- IMO the line on what speech is reasonable to restrict should be clearer than it is in current law, especially if we're going to expand the provision under the Human Rights Act to deal with racial discrimination. I'd personally suggest targeted action with an intent to (and maybe repeated, depending on severity) intimidate or harass of any group protected by New Zealand human rights law is what we'd definitely want "in" as an offense under a hate speech law. (I say action simply to make it clear that things like bigoted graffiti are also speech, but that may not be necessary in law. We also have to be a little bit careful here because some of the protections under NZ law are implicit, not explicit, so we might need to name some additional ones if we tried to reference groups listed in BORA, for instance, as some of them have been interpretted as having BORA protections in the courts but are not explicitly in legislation)

                      I'd actually also favour introducing hate crimes legislation to add an additional charge to those who specifically target protected groups in serial violent crimes, as it has an intimidatory factor that is an extra injury to the public at large- essentially my view is that the purpose here isn't to "criminalize opinion," it's about making it clear that systemic intimidation, harassment, or violence against vulnerable groups to try and make them live in fear is unacceptable in a polite society and a seperate injury to any speech or violent action taken, and this is appropriate even in a society that believes in freedom of expression.

                      The moment one person's freedom of expression and another one's legitimate fear for their personal safety come into conflict, I think we really need to consider what kind of society we are and whether we think speech should be allowed to translate into attacks this way. Where speech is political, it has political consequences. Where speech is action or incitement to action, it should have legal consequences, if that action is demonstrably harmful and illegal- and we've seen that white supremacy is absolutely demonstrably harmful to New Zealanders.

        • Formerly Ross 18.2.1.2

          The idea that more speech somehow reverses the effect of incitement to violence, or constant harassment

          But, Matthew, we already have laws against incitement to violence and harassment. We don't need more laws.

          Gay people have benefited tremendously from free speech. It's odd that we'd even contemplate turning the clock back.

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFVRRP-J9mI

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XrrbBzVVmEI

  18. Jenny - How to Get there? 19

    A privileged white male wants the right to tell racist, sexist, homophobic and anti-Semitic jokes, in public.

    He wants to reinforce his social position by depicting those not like him as inferior.

    He wants the state to protect his right to do so.

    David Seymor wants the right to belittle, demean and mock those who don’t enjoy the privileges he does.

    Why am I not surprised?

    • He wants the state to protect his right to do so.

      Nope. He wants the state to not criminalise him for doing so, which is something else entirely.

    • Morrissey 19.2

      So, because people like David Seymour are horrible, you want to curb all of our tongues, and censor all of our writing.

      Who's going to do this curbing and censoring?

    • greywarshark 19.3

      Life's a bitch ain't it. Or am I not allowed to say that.

  19. JustMe 20

    What is it about David Seymour that he at every opportunity eagerly hunts and seeks out all chances of being the centre of attention?

    When he isn't looking or behaving like the perpetual Village Idiot on some tv show and no I am not referring to his 'Look at me. Aren't I fantastic?" scenes in NZ politics he is dancing his way into stupidity on some show that I have never bothered to watch.

    Maybe this all explains why we unfortunately have David Seymour in parliament. He is in love with himself and his sense that he MUST BE THE CENTRE OF ATTENTION at ALL TIMES.

    Where was Seymour's voice of concern whilst he was part of the previous National government????!!!!! Oh right. He was a voice-less Village Idiot that was ONLY there in the previous government to vote ALWAYS in favour of National.

    He claims to be part Maori but will only apply the Maori part when it suits him and his agendas. Outside of that time we probably wouldn't even get him saying anything like "I think raising GST to 15% is unacceptable for low income NZers of which most Maori come into that category…"

    Nope. David Seymour is just behaving like an opportunistic and self-serving ratbag. What little population in his electorate voted for him should hold their heads in shame. They got a Village Idiot as their representative.

  20. SHG 21

    If my choice come election time is a choice between a party protecting free speech rights and a party that wants to make it illegal to hurt people’s feelings, I’m voting for the first party.

    Nice work Rimmer. Keep it up.

  21. Observer Tokoroa 22

    "Do as I say " says David

    Is this the same Seymour who is demanding that Doctors be called upon to assist people to die ?

    I am not wishing to insult the National Party stooge, But we all know from daily accounts that Killing is extremely easy.

    Bringing people back to life however, is impossible. Even for the Act Party.

    • greywarshark 22.1

      Actually dying is very hard to achieve in this country on a lawful basis, and no matter how much desired. It is a sad act when one has to starve to death purposefully, or to plan to commit suicide and die alone without a friend or relative with you to say farewell to, help smooth the way with all things attended to, and note your leaving.

  22. SHG 23

    A government that decides that it should control speech that offends people is a very small step from deciding that it should control speech that offends the government.

Recent Comments

Recent Posts

  • At a glance – Does CO2 always correlate with temperature?
    On February 14, 2023 we announced our Rebuttal Update Project. This included an ask for feedback about the added "At a glance" section in the updated basic rebuttal versions. This weekly blog post series highlights this new section of one of the updated basic rebuttal versions and serves as a ...
    4 hours ago
  • Bernard’s six-stack of substacks at 6.06 pm on Tuesday, March 19
    TL;DR: In today’s ‘six-stack’ of substacks at 6.06pm on Tuesday, March 19:Kāinga Ora’s dry rot The Spinoff DailyBill McKibben on ‘Climate Superfunds’ making Big Oil pay for climate damage The Crucial YearsPreston Mui on returning to 1980s-style productivity growth NoahpinionAndy Boenau on NIMBYs needing unusual bedfellows Urbanism SpeakeasyNed Resnikoff's case ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    6 hours ago
  • Relentlessly negative
    Negative yesterday, negative today. Negative all year, according to one departing reader telling me I’ve grown strident and predictable. Fair enough. If it’s any help, every time I go to write about a certain topic that begins with C and ends with arrrrs, I do brace myself and ask: Again? Are ...
    More Than A FeildingBy David Slack
    7 hours ago
  • Scoring 4.6 out of 10, the new Government is struggling in the polls
    Bryce Edwards writes –  It’s been a tumultuous time in politics in recent months, as the new National-led Government has driven through its “First 100 Day programme”. During this period there’s been a handful of opinion polls, which overall just show a minimal amount of flux in public support ...
    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    7 hours ago
  • Promiscuous Empathy: Chris Trotter Replies To His Critics.
    Inspirational: The Family of Man is a glorious hymn to human equality, but, more than that, it is a clarion call to human freedom. Because equality, unleavened by liberty, is a broken piano, an unstrung harp; upon which the songs of fraternity will never be played. “Somebody must have been telling lies about ...
    7 hours ago
  • Don’t run your business like a criminal enterprise
    The Detail this morning highlights the police's asset forfeiture case against convicted business criminal Ron Salter, who stands to have his business confiscated for systemic violations of health and safety law. Business are crying foul - but not for the reason you'd think. Instead of opposing the post-conviction punishment and ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    7 hours ago
  • Misremembering Justinian’s Taxes.
    Tax Lawyer Barbara Edmonds vs Emperor Justinian I - Nolo Contendere: False historical explanations of pivotal events are very far from being inconsequential.WHEN BARBARA EDMONDS made reference to the Roman Empire, my ears pricked up. It is, lamentably, very rare to hear a politician admit to any kind of familiarity ...
    8 hours ago
  • Bryce Edwards: Scoring 4.6 out of 10, the new Government is struggling in the polls
    It’s been a tumultuous time in politics in recent months, as the new National-led Government has driven through its “First 100 Day programme”. During this period there’s been a handful of opinion polls, which overall just show a minimal amount of flux in public support for the various parties in ...
    Democracy ProjectBy bryce.edwards
    9 hours ago
  • Bishop scores headlines with crackdown on unwelcome tenants – but Peters scores, too, as tub-thump...
    Buzz from the Beehive Housing Minister Chris Bishop delivered news – packed with the ingredients to enflame political passions – worthy of supplanting Winston Peters in headline writers’ priorities. He popped up at the post-Cabinet press conference to promise a crackdown on unruly and antisocial state housing tenants. His ...
    Point of OrderBy Bob Edlin
    10 hours ago
  • Will it make the boat go faster?
    Ele Ludemann writes – The Reserve Bank is advertising for a Diversity, Equity and Inclusion advisor. The Bank has one mandate – to keep inflation between one and three percent. It has failed in that and is only slowly getting inflation back down to the upper limit. Will it ...
    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    13 hours ago
  • Bryce Edwards: Is Simon Bridges’ NZTA appointment a conflict of interest?
    Last week former National Party leader Simon Bridges was appointed by the Government as the new chair of the New Zealand Transport Agency Waka Kotahi (NZTA). You can read about the appointment in Thomas Coughlan’s article, Simon Bridges to become chair of NZ Transport Agency Waka Kotahi The fact that a ...
    Democracy ProjectBy bryce.edwards
    13 hours ago
  • Is Simon Bridges’ NZTA appointment a conflict of interest?
    Bryce Edwards writes – Last week former National Party leader Simon Bridges was appointed by the Government as the new chair of the New Zealand Transport Agency Waka Kotahi (NZTA). You can read about the appointment in Thomas Coughlan’s article, Simon Bridges to become chair of NZ Transport Agency ...
    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    13 hours ago
  • Bernard's Top 10 @ 10 'pick 'n' mix' at 10:10am on Tuesday, March 19
    TL;DR: My top 10 news and analysis links this morning include:Today’s must-read: Gavin Jacobson talks to Thomas Piketty 10 years on from Capital in the 21st Century The SalvoLocal scoop: Green MP’s business being investigated over migrant exploitation claims Stuff Steve KilgallonLocal deep-dive: The commercial contractors making money from School ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    13 hours ago
  • Bernard's six newsy things on Tuesday, March 19
    It’s a home - but Kāinga Ora tenants accused of “abusing the privilege” may lose it. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāTL;DR: The Government announced a crackdown on Kāinga Ora tenants who were unruly and/or behind on their rent, with Housing Minister Chris Bishop saying a place in a state ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    14 hours ago
  • New Life for Light Rail
    This is a guest post by Connor Sharp of Surface Light Rail  Light rail in Auckland: A way forward sooner than you think With the coup de grâce of Auckland Light Rail (ALR) earlier this year, and the shift of the government’s priorities to roads, roads, and more roads, it ...
    Greater AucklandBy Guest Post
    15 hours ago
  • Why Are Bosses Nearly All Buffoons?
    Note: As a paid-up Webworm member, I’ve recorded this Webworm as a mini-podcast for you as well. Some of you said you liked this option - so I aim to provide it when I get a chance to record! Read more ...
    David FarrierBy David Farrier
    18 hours ago
  • Bernard’s six-stack of substacks at 6.06 pm on March 18
    TL;DR: In my ‘six-stack’ of substacks at 6.06pm on Monday, March 18:IKEA is accused of planting big forests in New Zealand to green-wash; REDD-MonitorA City for People takes a well-deserved victory lap over Wellington’s pro-YIMBY District Plan votes; A City for PeopleSteven Anastasiou takes a close look at the sticky ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    1 day ago
  • Peters holds his ground on co-governance, but Willis wriggles on those tax cuts and SNA suspension l...
    Buzz from the Beehive Here’s hoping for a lively post-cabinet press conference when the PM and – perhaps – some of his ministers tell us what was discussed at their meeting today. Until then, Point of Order has precious little Beehive news to report after its latest monitoring of the ...
    Point of OrderBy Bob Edlin
    1 day ago
  • Labour’s final report card
    David Farrar writes –  We now have almost all 2023 data in, which has allowed me to update my annual table of how  went against its promises. This is basically their final report card. The promise The result Build 100,000 affordable homes over 10 ...
    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    1 day ago
  • “Drunk Uncle at a Wedding”
    I’m a bit worried that I’ve started a previous newsletter with the words “just when you think they couldn’t get any worse…” Seems lately that I could begin pretty much every issue with that opening. Such is the nature of our coalition government that they seem to be outdoing each ...
    Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel
    2 days ago
  • Wang Yi’s perfectly-timed, Aukus-themed visit to New Zealand
    Geoffrey Miller writes – Timing is everything. And from China’s perspective, this week’s visit by its foreign minister to New Zealand could be coming at just the right moment. The visit by Wang Yi to Wellington will be his first since 2017. Anniversaries are important to Beijing. ...
    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    2 days ago
  • Gordon Campbell on Dune 2, and images of Islam
    Depictions of Islam in Western popular culture have rarely been positive, even before 9/11. Five years on from the mosque shootings, this is one of the cultural headwinds that the Muslim community has to battle against. Whatever messages of tolerance and inclusion are offered in daylight, much of our culture ...
    2 days ago
  • New Rail Operations Centre Promises Better Train Services
    Last week Transport Minster Simeon Brown and Mayor Wayne Brown opened the new Auckland Rail Operations Centre. The new train control centre will see teams from KiwiRail, Auckland Transport and Auckland One Rail working more closely together to improve train services across the city. The Auckland Rail Operations Centre in ...
    2 days ago
  • Bernard's six newsy things at 6.36am on Monday, March 18
    Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāTL;DR: Retiring former Labour Finance Minister Grant Robertson said in an exit interview with Q+A yesterday the Government can and should sustain more debt to invest in infrastructure for future generations. Elsewhere in the news in Aotearoa-NZ’s political economy at 6:36am: Read more ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    2 days ago
  • Geoffrey Miller: Wang Yi’s perfectly-timed, Aukus-themed visit to New Zealand
    Timing is everything. And from China’s perspective, this week’s visit by its foreign minister to New Zealand could be coming at just the right moment. The visit by Wang Yi to Wellington will be his first since 2017. Anniversaries are important to Beijing. It is more than just a happy ...
    Democracy ProjectBy Geoffrey Miller
    2 days ago
  • The Kaka’s diary for the week to March 25 and beyond
    TL;DR: The key events to watch in Aotearoa-NZ’s political economy in the week to March 18 include:China’s Foreign Minister visiting Wellington today;A post-cabinet news conference this afternoon; the resumption of Parliament on Tuesday for two weeks before Easter;retiring former Labour Finance Minister Grant Robertson gives his valedictory speech in Parliament; ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    2 days ago
  • Bitter and angry; Winston First
    New Zealand First Leader Winston Peters’s state-of-the-nation speech on Sunday was really a state-of-Winston-First speech. He barely mentioned any of the Government’s key policies and could not even wholly endorse its signature income tax cuts. Instead, he rehearsed all of his complaints about the Ardern Government, including an extraordinary claim ...
    PolitikBy Richard Harman
    2 days ago
  • 2024 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #11
    A listing of 35 news and opinion articles we found interesting and shared on social media during the past week: Sun, March 10, 2024 thru Sat, March 16, 2024. Story of the week This week we'll give you a little glimpse into how we collect links to share and ...
    2 days ago
  • 2024 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #11
    A listing of 35 news and opinion articles we found interesting and shared on social media during the past week: Sun, March 10, 2024 thru Sat, March 16, 2024. Story of the week This week we'll give you a little glimpse into how we collect links to share and ...
    2 days ago
  • Out of Touch.
    “I’ve been internalising a really complicated situation in my head.”When they kept telling us we should wait until we get to know him, were they taking the piss? Was it a case of, if you think this is bad, wait till you get to know the real Christopher, after the ...
    Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel
    3 days ago
  • Bring out your Dad
    Happy fourth anniversary, Pandemic That Upended Bloody Everything. I have been observing it by enjoying my second bout of COVID. It’s 5.30 on Sunday morning and only now are lights turning back on for me.Allow me to copy and paste what I told reader Sara yesterday:Depleted, fogged and crappy. Resting, ...
    More Than A FeildingBy David Slack
    3 days ago
  • Bring out your Dad
    Happy fourth anniversary, Pandemic That Upended Bloody Everything. I have been observing it by enjoying my second bout of COVID. It’s 5.30 on Sunday morning and only now are lights turning back on for me.Allow me to copy and paste what I told reader Sara yesterday:Depleted, fogged and crappy. Resting, ...
    More Than A FeildingBy David Slack
    3 days ago
  • Bring out your Dad
    Happy fourth anniversary, Pandemic That Upended Bloody Everything. I have been observing it by enjoying my second bout of COVID. It’s 5.30 on Sunday morning and only now are lights turning back on for me.Allow me to copy and paste what I told reader Sara yesterday:Depleted, fogged and crappy. Resting, ...
    More Than A FeildingBy David Slack
    3 days ago
  • The bewildering world of Chris Luxon – Guns for all, not no lunch for kids
    .“$10 and a target that bleeds” - Bleeding Targets for Under $10!.Thanks for reading Frankly Speaking ! Subscribe for free to receive new posts and support my work.This government appears hell-bent on either scrapping life-saving legislation or reintroducing things that - frustrated critics insist - will be dangerous and likely ...
    Frankly SpeakingBy Frank Macskasy
    3 days ago
  • Expert Opinion: Ageing Boomers, Laurie & Les, Talk Politics.
    It hardly strikes me as fair to criticise a government for doing exactly what it said it was going to do. For actually keeping its promises.”THUNDER WAS PLAYING TAG with lightning flashes amongst the distant peaks. Its rolling cadences interrupted by the here-I-come-here-I-go Doppler effect of the occasional passing car. ...
    3 days ago
  • Manufacturing The Truth.
    Subversive & Disruptive Technologies: Just as happened with that other great regulator of the masses, the Medieval Church, the advent of a new and hard-to-control technology – the Internet –  is weakening the ties that bind. Then, and now, those who enjoy a monopoly on the dissemination of lies, cannot and will ...
    3 days ago
  • A Powerful Sensation of Déjà Vu.
    Been Here Before: To find the precedents for what this Coalition Government is proposing, it is necessary to return to the “glory days” of Muldoonism.THE COALITION GOVERNMENT has celebrated its first 100 days in office by checking-off the last of its listed commitments. It remains, however, an angry government. It ...
    3 days ago
  • Can you guess where world attention is focussed (according to Greenpeace)? It’s focussed on an EPA...
    Bob Edlin writes –  And what is the world watching today…? The email newsletter from Associated Press which landed in our mailbox early this morning advised: In the news today: The father of a school shooter has been found guilty of involuntary manslaughter; prosecutors in Trump’s hush-money case ...
    Point of OrderBy Bob Edlin
    3 days ago
  • Further integrity problems for the Greens in suspending MP Darleen Tana
    Bryce Edwards writes – Is another Green MP on their way out? And are the Greens severely tarnished by another integrity scandal? For the second time in three months, the Green Party has secretly suspended an MP over integrity issues. Mystery is surrounding the party’s decision to ...
    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    3 days ago
  • Jacqui Van Der Kaay: Greens’ transparency missing in action
    For the last few years, the Green Party has been the party that has managed to avoid the plague of multiple scandals that have beleaguered other political parties. It appears that their luck has run out with a second scandal which, unfortunately for them, coincided with Golraz Ghahraman, the focus ...
    Democracy ProjectBy bryce.edwards
    4 days ago
  • Bernard’s Dawn Chorus with six newsey things at 6:46am for Saturday, March 16
    TL;DR: The six newsey things that stood out to me as of 6:46am on Saturday, March 16.Andy Foster has accidentally allowed a Labour/Green amendment to cut road user chargers for plug-in hybrid vehicles, which the Government might accept; NZ Herald Thomas Coughlan Simeon Brown has rejected a plea from Westport ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    4 days ago
  • How Did FTX Crash?
    What seemed a booming success a couple of years ago has collapsed into fraud convictions.I looked at the crash of FTX (short for ‘Futures Exchange’) in November 2022 to see whether it would impact on the financial system as a whole. Fortunately there was barely a ripple, probably because it ...
    PunditBy Brian Easton
    4 days ago
  • Elections in Russia and Ukraine
    Anybody following the situation in Ukraine and Russia would probably have been amused by a recent Tweet on X NATO seems to be putting in an awful lot of effort to influence what is, at least according to them, a sham election in an autocracy.When do the Ukrainians go to ...
    4 days ago
  • Bernard’s six stack of substacks at 6pm on March 15
    TL;DR: Shaun Baker on Wynyard Quarter's transformation. Magdalene Taylor on the problem with smart phones. How private equity are now all over reinsurance. Dylan Cleaver on rugby and CTE. Emily Atkin on ‘Big Meat’ looking like ‘Big Oil’.Bernard’s six-stack of substacks at 6pm on March 15Photo by Jeppe Hove Jensen ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    4 days ago
  • Buzz from the Beehive Finance Minister Nicola Willis had plenty to say when addressing the Auckland Business Chamber on the economic growth that (she tells us) is flagging more than we thought. But the government intends to put new life into it:  We want our country to be a ...
    Point of OrderBy Bob Edlin
    4 days ago
  • National’s clean car tax advances
    The Transport and Infrastructure Committee has reported back on the Road User Charges (Light Electric RUC Vehicles) Amendment Bill, basicly rubberstamping it. While there was widespread support among submitters for the principle that EV and PHEV drivers should pay their fair share for the roads, they also overwhelmingly disagreed with ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    4 days ago
  • Government funding bailouts
    Peter Dunne writes – This week’s government bailout – the fifth in the last eighteen months – of the financially troubled Ruapehu Alpine Lifts company would have pleased many in the central North Island ski industry. The government’s stated rationale for the $7 million funding was that it ...
    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    4 days ago
  • Two offenders, different treatments.
    See if you can spot the difference. An Iranian born female MP from a progressive party is accused of serial shoplifting. Her name is leaked to the media, which goes into a pack frenzy even before the Police launch an … Continue reading ...
    KiwipoliticoBy Pablo
    4 days ago
  • Treaty references omitted
    Ele Ludemann writes  – The government is omitting general Treaty references from legislation : The growth of Treaty of Waitangi clauses in legislation caused so much worry that a special oversight group was set up by the last Government in a bid to get greater coherence in the public service on Treaty ...
    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    4 days ago
  • The Ghahraman Conflict
    What was that judge thinking? Peter Williams writes –  That Golriz Ghahraman and District Court Judge Maria Pecotic were once lawyer colleagues is incontrovertible. There is published evidence that they took at least one case to the Court of Appeal together. There was a report on ...
    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    4 days ago
  • Bernard's Top 10 @ 10 'pick 'n' mix' for March 15
    TL;DR: My top 10 news and analysis links this morning include:Today’s must-read: Climate Scorpion – the sting is in the tail. Introducing planetary solvency. A paper via the University of Exeter’s Institute and Faculty of Actuaries.Local scoop: Kāinga Ora starts pulling out of its Auckland projects and selling land RNZ ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    5 days ago
  • The day Wellington up-zoned its future
    Wellington’s massively upzoned District Plan adds the opportunity for tens of thousands of new homes not just in the central city (such as these Webb St new builds) but also close to the CBD and public transport links. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāTL;DR: Wellington gave itself the chance of ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    5 days ago
  • Weekly Roundup 15-March-2024
    It’s Friday and we’re halfway through March Madness. Here’s some of the things that caught our attention this week. This Week in Greater Auckland On Monday Matt asked how we can get better event trains and an option for grade separating Morningside Dr. On Tuesday Matt looked into ...
    Greater AucklandBy Greater Auckland
    5 days ago
  • That Word.
    Something you might not know about me is that I’m quite a stubborn person. No, really. I don’t much care for criticism I think’s unfair or that I disagree with. Few of us do I suppose.Back when I was a drinker I’d sometimes respond defensively, even angrily. There are things ...
    Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel
    5 days ago
  • The Hoon around the week to March 15
    Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāTL;DR: The five things that mattered in Aotearoa’s political economy that we wrote and spoke about via The Kākā and elsewhere for paying subscribers in the last week included:PM Christopher Luxon said the reversal of interest deductibility for landlords was done to help renters, who ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    5 days ago
  • Labour’s policy gap
    It was not so much the Labour Party but really the Chris Hipkins party yesterday at Labour’s caucus retreat in Martinborough. The former Prime Minister was more or less consistent on wealth tax, which he was at best equivocal about, and social insurance, which he was not willing to revisit. ...
    PolitikBy Richard Harman
    5 days ago
  • Skeptical Science New Research for Week #11 2024
    Open access notables A Glimpse into the Future: The 2023 Ocean Temperature and Sea Ice Extremes in the Context of Longer-Term Climate Change, Kuhlbrodt et al., Bulletin of the American Meteorological Society: In the year 2023, we have seen extraordinary extrema in high sea surface temperature (SST) in the North Atlantic and in ...
    5 days ago
  • Melissa remains mute on media matters but has something to say (at a sporting event) about economic ...
     Buzz from the Beehive   The text reproduced above appears on a page which records all the media statements and speeches posted on the government’s official website by Melissa Lee as Minister of Media and Communications and/or by Jenny Marcroft, her Parliamentary Under-secretary.  It can be quickly analysed ...
    Point of OrderBy Bob Edlin
    5 days ago
  • The return of Muldoon
    For forty years, Robert Muldoon has been a dirty word in our politics. His style of government was so repulsive and authoritarian that the backlash to it helped set and entrench our constitutional norms. His pig-headedness over forcing through Think Big eventually gave us the RMA, with its participation and ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    5 days ago
  • Will the rental tax cut improve life for renters or landlords?
    Bryce Edwards writes –  Is the new government reducing tax on rental properties to benefit landlords or to cut the cost of rents? That’s the big question this week, after Associate Finance Minister David Seymour announced on Sunday that the Government would be reversing the Labour Government’s removal ...
    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    5 days ago
  • Geoffrey Miller: What Saudi Arabia’s rapid changes mean for New Zealand
    Saudi Arabia is rarely far from the international spotlight. The war in Gaza has brought new scrutiny to Saudi plans to normalise relations with Israel, while the fifth anniversary of the controversial killing of Jamal Khashoggi was marked shortly before the war began on October 7. And as the home ...
    Democracy ProjectBy Geoffrey Miller
    5 days ago
  • Racism’s double standards
    Questions need to be asked on both sides of the world Peter Williams writes –   The NRL Judiciary hands down an eight week suspension to Sydney Roosters forward Spencer Leniu , an Auckland-born Samoan, after he calls Ezra Mam, Sydney-orn but of Aboriginal and Torres Strait ...
    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    5 days ago
  • It’s not a tax break
    Ele Ludemann writes – Contrary to what many headlines and news stories are saying, residential landlords are not getting a tax break. The government is simply restoring to them the tax deductibility of interest they had until the previous government removed it. There is no logical reason ...
    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    5 days ago
  • The Plastic Pig Collective and Chris' Imaginary Friends.
    I can't remember when it was goodMoments of happiness in bloomMaybe I just misunderstoodAll of the love we left behindWatching our flashbacks intertwineMemories I will never findIn spite of whatever you becomeForget that reckless thing turned onI think our lives have just begunI think our lives have just begunDoes anyone ...
    Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel
    5 days ago
  • Who is responsible for young offenders?
    Michael Bassett writes – At first reading, a front-page story in the New Zealand Herald on 13 March was bizarre. A group of severely intellectually limited teenagers, with little understanding of the law, have been pleading to the Justice Select Committee not to pass a bill dealing with ram ...
    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    5 days ago
  • Gordon Campbell on National’s fantasy trip to La La Landlord Land
    How much political capital is Christopher Luxon willing to burn through in order to deliver his $2.9 billion gift to landlords? Evidently, Luxon is: (a) unable to cost the policy accurately. As Anna Burns-Francis pointed out to him on Breakfast TV, the original ”rock solid” $2.1 billion cost he was ...
    6 days ago
  • Bernard's Top 10 @ 10 'pick 'n' mix' for March 14
    TL;DR: My top 10 news and analysis links this morning include:Today’s must-read: Jonathon Porritt calling bullshit in his own blog post on mainstream climate science as ‘The New Denialism’.Local scoop: The Wellington City Council’s list of proposed changes to the IHP recommendations to be debated later today was leaked this ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    6 days ago
  • No, Prime Minister, rents don’t rise or fall with landlords’ costs
    TL;DR: Prime Minister Christopher Luxon said yesterday tenants should be grateful for the reinstatement of interest deductibility because landlords would pass on their lower tax costs in the form of lower rents. That would be true if landlords were regulated monopolies such as Transpower or Auckland Airport1, but they’re not, ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    6 days ago
  • Cartoons: ‘At least I didn’t make things awkward’
    This is a re-post from Yale Climate Connections by Tom Toro Tom Toro is a cartoonist and author. He has published over 200 cartoons in The New Yorker since 2010. His cartoons appear in Playboy, the Paris Review, the New York Times, American Bystander, and elsewhere. Related: What 10 EV lovers ...
    6 days ago
  • Solving traffic congestion with Richard Prebble
    The business section of the NZ Herald is full of opinion. Among the more opinionated of all is the ex-Minister of Transport, ex-Minister of Railways, ex MP for Auckland Central (1975-93, Labour), Wellington Central (1996-99, ACT, then list-2005), ex-leader of the ACT Party, uncle to actor Antonia, the veritable granddaddy ...
    Greater AucklandBy Patrick Reynolds
    6 days ago
  • I Think I'm Done Flying Boeing
    Hi,Just quickly — I’m blown away by the stories you’ve shared with me over the last week since I put out the ‘Gary’ podcast, where I told you about the time my friend’s flatmate killed the neighbour.And you keep telling me stories — in the comments section, and in my ...
    David FarrierBy David Farrier
    6 days ago
  • Invoking Aristotle: Of Rings of Power, Stones, and Ships
    The first season of Rings of Power was not awful. It was thoroughly underwhelming, yes, and left a lingering sense of disappointment, but it was more expensive mediocrity than catastrophe. I wrote at length about the series as it came out (see the Review section of the blog, and go ...
    6 days ago
  • Van Velden brings free-market approach to changing labour laws – but her colleagues stick to distr...
    Buzz from the Beehive Workplace Relations and Safety Minister Brooke van Velden told Auckland Business Chamber members they were the first audience to hear her priorities as a minister in a government committed to cutting red tape and regulations. She brandished her liberalising credentials, saying Flexible labour markets are the ...
    Point of OrderBy Bob Edlin
    6 days ago
  • Why Newshub failed
    Chris Trotter writes – TO UNDERSTAND WHY NEWSHUB FAILED, it is necessary to understand how TVNZ changed. Up until 1989, the state broadcaster had been funded by a broadcasting licence fee, collected from every citizen in possession of a television set, supplemented by a relatively modest (compared ...
    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    6 days ago
  • Māori Party on the warpath against landlords and seabed miners – let’s see if mystical creature...
    Bob Edlin writes  –  The Māori Party has been busy issuing a mix of warnings and threats as its expresses its opposition to interest deductibility for landlords and the plans of seabed miners. It remains to be seen whether they  follow the example of indigenous litigants in Australia, ...
    Point of OrderBy Bob Edlin
    6 days ago

  • Government moves to quickly ratify the NZ-EU FTA
    "The Government is moving quickly to realise an additional $46 million in tariff savings in the EU market this season for Kiwi exporters,” Minister for Trade and Agriculture, Todd McClay says. Parliament is set, this week, to complete the final legislative processes required to bring the New Zealand – European ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 hours ago
  • Positive progress for social worker workforce
    New Zealand’s social workers are qualified, experienced, and more representative of the communities they serve, Social Development and Employment Minister Louise Upston says. “I want to acknowledge and applaud New Zealand’s social workers for the hard work they do, providing invaluable support for our most vulnerable. “To coincide with World ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    11 hours ago
  • Minister confirms reduced RUC rate for PHEVs
    Cabinet has agreed to a reduced road user charge (RUC) rate for plug-in hybrid electric vehicles (PHEVs), Transport Minister Simeon Brown says. Owners of PHEVs will be eligible for a reduced rate of $38 per 1,000km once all light electric vehicles (EVs) move into the RUC system from 1 April.  ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    13 hours ago
  • Trade access to overseas markets creates jobs
    Minister of Agriculture and Trade, Todd McClay, says that today’s opening of Riverland Foods manufacturing plant in Christchurch is a great example of how trade access to overseas markets creates jobs in New Zealand.  Speaking at the official opening of this state-of-the-art pet food factory the Minister noted that exports ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    14 hours ago
  • NZ and Chinese Foreign Ministers hold official talks
    Minister of Foreign Affairs Winston Peters met with Chinese Foreign Minister Wang Yi in Wellington today. “It was a pleasure to host Foreign Minister Wang Yi during his first official visit to New Zealand since 2017. Our discussions were wide-ranging and enabled engagement on many facets of New Zealand’s relationship with China, including trade, ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 day ago
  • Kāinga Ora instructed to end Sustaining Tenancies
    Kāinga Ora – Homes & Communities has been instructed to end the Sustaining Tenancies Framework and take stronger measures against persistent antisocial behaviour by tenants, says Housing Minister Chris Bishop. “Earlier today Finance Minister Nicola Willis and I sent an interim Letter of Expectations to the Board of Kāinga Ora. ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 day ago
  • Speech to Auckland Business Chamber: Growth is the answer
    Tēna koutou katoa. Greetings everyone. Thank you to the Auckland Chamber of Commerce and the Honourable Simon Bridges for hosting this address today. I acknowledge the business leaders in this room, the leaders and governors, the employers, the entrepreneurs, the investors, and the wealth creators. The coalition Government shares your ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Singapore rounds out regional trip
    Minister Winston Peters completed the final leg of his visit to South and South East Asia in Singapore today, where he focused on enhancing one of New Zealand’s indispensable strategic partnerships.      “Singapore is our most important defence partner in South East Asia, our fourth-largest trading partner and a ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Minister van Velden represents New Zealand at International Democracy Summit
    Minister of Internal Affairs and Workplace Relations and Safety, Hon. Brooke van Velden, will travel to the Republic of Korea to represent New Zealand at the Third Summit for Democracy on 18 March. The summit, hosted by the Republic of Korea, was first convened by the United States in 2021, ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Insurance Council of NZ Speech, 7 March 2024, Auckland
    ICNZ Speech 7 March 2024, Auckland  Acknowledgements and opening  Mōrena, ngā mihi nui. Ko Andrew Bayly aho, Nor Whanganui aho.  Good morning, it’s a privilege to be here to open the ICNZ annual conference, thank you to Mark for the Mihi Whakatau  My thanks to Tim Grafton for inviting me ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Five-year anniversary of Christchurch terror attacks
    Prime Minister Christopher Luxon and Lead Coordination Minister Judith Collins have expressed their deepest sympathy on the five-year anniversary of the Christchurch terror attacks. “March 15, 2019, was a day when families, communities and the country came together both in sorrow and solidarity,” Mr Luxon says.  “Today we pay our respects to the 51 shuhada ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Speech for Financial Advice NZ Conference 5 March 2024
    Speech for Financial Advice NZ Conference 5 March 2024  Acknowledgements and opening  Morena, Nga Mihi Nui.  Ko Andrew Bayly aho, Nor Whanganui aho. Thanks Nate for your Mihi Whakatau  Good morning. It’s a pleasure to formally open your conference this morning. What a lovely day in Wellington, What a great ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Early visit to Indonesia strengthens ties
    Foreign Minister Winston Peters held discussions in Jakarta today about the future of relations between New Zealand and South East Asia’s most populous country.   “We are in Jakarta so early in our new government’s term to reflect the huge importance we place on our relationship with Indonesia and South ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • China Foreign Minister to visit
    Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Foreign Affairs Winston Peters has announced that the Foreign Minister of China, Wang Yi, will visit New Zealand next week.  “We look forward to re-engaging with Foreign Minister Wang Yi and discussing the full breadth of the bilateral relationship, which is one of New Zealand’s ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Minister opens new Auckland Rail Operations Centre
    Transport Minister Simeon Brown has today opened the new Auckland Rail Operations Centre, which will bring together KiwiRail, Auckland Transport, and Auckland One Rail to improve service reliability for Aucklanders. “The recent train disruptions in Auckland have highlighted how important it is KiwiRail and Auckland’s rail agencies work together to ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Celebrating 10 years of Crankworx Rotorua
    The Government is proud to support the 10th edition of Crankworx Rotorua as the Crankworx World Tour returns to Rotorua from 16-24 March 2024, says Minister for Economic Development Melissa Lee.  “Over the past 10 years as Crankworx Rotorua has grown, so too have the economic and social benefits that ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Government delivering on tax commitments
    Legislation implementing coalition Government tax commitments and addressing long-standing tax anomalies will be progressed in Parliament next week, Finance Minister Nicola Willis says. The legislation is contained in an Amendment Paper to the Taxation (Annual Rates for 2023–24, Multinational Tax, and Remedial Matters) Bill issued today.  “The Amendment Paper represents ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Significant Natural Areas requirement to be suspended
    Associate Environment Minister Andrew Hoggard has today announced that the Government has agreed to suspend the requirement for councils to comply with the Significant Natural Areas (SNA) provisions of the National Policy Statement for Indigenous Biodiversity for three years, while it replaces the Resource Management Act (RMA).“As it stands, SNAs ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Government classifies drought conditions in Top of the South as medium-scale adverse event
    Agriculture Minister Todd McClay has classified the drought conditions in the Marlborough, Tasman, and Nelson districts as a medium-scale adverse event, acknowledging the challenging conditions facing farmers and growers in the district. “Parts of Marlborough, Tasman, and Nelson districts are in the grip of an intense dry spell. I know ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Government partnership to tackle $332m facial eczema problem
    The Government is helping farmers eradicate the significant impact of facial eczema (FE) in pastoral animals, Agriculture Minister Todd McClay announced.  “A $20 million partnership jointly funded by Beef + Lamb NZ, the Government, and the primary sector will save farmers an estimated NZD$332 million per year, and aims to ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • NZ, India chart path to enhanced relationship
    Foreign Minister Winston Peters has completed a successful visit to India, saying it was an important step in taking the relationship between the two countries to the next level.   “We have laid a strong foundation for the Coalition Government’s priority of enhancing New Zealand-India relations to generate significant future benefit for both countries,” says Mr Peters, ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Ruapehu Alpine Lifts bailout the last, say Ministers
    Cabinet has agreed to provide $7 million to ensure the 2024 ski season can go ahead on the Whakapapa ski field in the central North Island but has told the operator Ruapehu Alpine Lifts it is the last financial support it will receive from taxpayers. Cabinet also agreed to provide ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Govt takes action to drive better cancer services
    Health Minister Dr Shane Reti says the launch of a new mobile breast screening unit in Counties Manukau reinforces the coalition Government’s commitment to drive better cancer services for all New Zealanders. Speaking at the launch of the new mobile clinic, Dr Reti says it’s a great example of taking ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Govt takes action to drive better cancer services
    Health Minister Dr Shane Reti says the launch of a new mobile breast screening unit in Counties Manukau reinforces the coalition Government’s commitment to drive better cancer services for all New Zealanders. Speaking at the launch of the new mobile clinic, Dr Reti says it’s a great example of taking ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Work begins on SH29 upgrades near Tauriko
    Unlocking economic growth and land for housing are critical elements of the Government’s plan for our transport network, and planned upgrades to State Highway 29 (SH29) near Tauriko will deliver strongly on those priorities, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says. “The SH29 upgrades near Tauriko will improve safety at the intersections ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Work begins on SH29 upgrades near Tauriko
    Unlocking economic growth and land for housing are critical elements of the Government’s plan for our transport network, and planned upgrades to State Highway 29 (SH29) near Tauriko will deliver strongly on those priorities, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says. “The SH29 upgrades near Tauriko will improve safety at the intersections ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Fresh produce price drop welcome
    Lower fruit and vegetable prices are welcome news for New Zealanders who have been doing it tough at the supermarket, Finance Minister Nicola Willis says. Stats NZ reported today the price of fruit and vegetables has dropped 9.3 percent in the 12 months to February 2024.  “Lower fruit and vege ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Statement to the 68th United Nations Commission on the Status of Women
    Tēnā koutou katoa and greetings to you all.  Chair, I am honoured to address the sixty-eighth session of the Commission on the Status of Women. I acknowledge the many crises impacting the rights of women and girls. Heightened global tensions, war, climate related and humanitarian disasters, and price inflation all ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Speech to the 68th United Nations Commission on the Status of Women (CSW68)
    Tēnā koutou katoa and greetings to you all.  Chair, I am honoured to address the 68th session of the Commission on the Status of Women. I acknowledge the many crises impacting the rights of women and girls. Heightened global tensions, war, climate related and humanitarian disasters, and price inflation all ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Government backs rural led catchment projects
    The coalition Government is supporting farmers to enhance land management practices by investing $3.3 million in locally led catchment groups, Agriculture Minister Todd McClay announced. “Farmers and growers deliver significant prosperity for New Zealand and it’s vital their ongoing efforts to improve land management practices and water quality are supported,” ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    7 days ago
  • Speech to Auckland Business Chamber
    Good evening everyone and thank you for that lovely introduction.   Thank you also to the Honourable Simon Bridges for the invitation to address your members. Since being sworn in, this coalition Government has hit the ground running with our 100-day plan, delivering the changes that New Zealanders expect of us. ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Commission’s advice on ETS settings tabled
    Recommendations from the Climate Change Commission for New Zealand on the Emissions Trading Scheme (ETS) auction and unit limit settings for the next five years have been tabled in Parliament, Climate Change Minister Simon Watts says. “The Commission provides advice on the ETS annually. This is the third time the ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Government lowering building costs
    The coalition Government is beginning its fight to lower building costs and reduce red tape by exempting minor building work from paying the building levy, says Building and Construction Minister Chris Penk. “Currently, any building project worth $20,444 including GST or more is subject to the building levy which is ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Trustee tax change welcomed
    Proposed changes to tax legislation to prevent the over-taxation of low-earning trusts are welcome, Finance Minister Nicola Willis says. The changes have been recommended by Parliament’s Finance and Expenditure Committee following consideration of submissions on the Taxation (Annual Rates for 2023–24, Multinational Tax, and Remedial Matters) Bill. “One of the ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Minister’s Ramadan message
    Assalaamu alaikum. السَّلَام عليكم In light of the holy month of Ramadan, I want to extend my warmest wishes to our Muslim community in New Zealand. Ramadan is a time for spiritual reflection, renewed devotion, perseverance, generosity, and forgiveness.  It’s a time to strengthen our bonds and appreciate the diversity ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Minister appoints new NZTA Chair
    Former Transport Minister and CEO of the Auckland Business Chamber Hon Simon Bridges has been appointed as the new Board Chair of the New Zealand Transport Agency (NZTA) for a three-year term, Transport Minister Simeon Brown announced today. “Simon brings extensive experience and knowledge in transport policy and governance to the role. He will ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Speech to Life Sciences Summit
    Good morning all, it is a pleasure to be here as Minister of Science, Innovation and Technology.  It is fantastic to see how connected and collaborative the life science and biotechnology industry is here in New Zealand. I would like to thank BioTechNZ and NZTech for the invitation to address ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Progress continues apace on water storage
    Regional Development Minister Shane Jones says he is looking forward to the day when three key water projects in Northland are up and running, unlocking the full potential of land in the region. Mr Jones attended a community event at the site of the Otawere reservoir near Kerikeri on Friday. ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Government agrees to restore interest deductions
    Associate Finance Minister David Seymour has today announced that the Government has agreed to restore deductibility for mortgage interest on residential investment properties. “Help is on the way for landlords and renters alike. The Government’s restoration of interest deductibility will ease pressure on rents and simplify the tax code,” says ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Minister to attend World Anti-Doping Agency Symposium
    Sport and Recreation Minister Chris Bishop will travel to Switzerland today to attend an Executive Committee meeting and Symposium of the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA). Mr Bishop will then travel on to London where he will attend a series of meetings in his capacity as Infrastructure Minister. “New Zealanders believe ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago

Page generated in The Standard by Wordpress at 2024-03-19T10:23:49+00:00