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Open mike 15/08/2019

Written By: - Date published: 7:00 am, August 15th, 2019 - 134 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

134 comments on “Open mike 15/08/2019 ”

  1. The politician's rule book might have to be amended – especially when 'interfacing' with the media.

    They seem to have been commenting on some 'operational matters' – first around Stats NZ, and now – quelle horreur, on Corrections failures.

    And worse still, on an individual case.

    • It gets worse. I hope the Minister is having a lay down.

      I was wondering how the Minister commenting on ‘operational matters’ regarding an ‘individual case’ suddenly couldn’t comment on an operational matter’ on this morning’s RNZ’s interview with him.

      And now, bugger me daze, he’s probably going to have to comment on how a police car got stolen in Gore where a couple of police issue pistols have gone west.

      Might be time to raid JA’s whiskey cabinet. It must be bloody hard having to maintain complete and utter ‘faith’ in ‘officials’. Does it require some sort of religious conversion?

    • Dukeofurl 1.2

      "first around Stats NZ, and now – quelle horreur, on Corrections failures."

      Yes. Statistics is independent, they had a report on their failures, why cant that be commented on.

      Corrections is different, Ministers are allowed to tell them to do specific things.

      Generally Ministers will ‘ask’ their departments about publicised failures.
      Its no surprise to find Corrections is ‘instructed’ instead.

      • OnceWasTim 1.2.1

        yep @ Duke. I realise all that. The thing I was pointing out was the selective commenting-or NOT, by elected reps. 'Operational Matters' seem to be very ill-defined and used as a matter of convenience whenever and if ever mere peons or what masquerades as the 4th Estate attempt to hold anybody to account. Local gummint has descended into something worse though.

        And now the Commish's deputy dawg has made a media statement over the Gore situation – still leaving questions answered. They'll have to be answered sometime in the fullness of time. You could probably excuse Davis getting well and truly pissed on more than a peg or two

  2. marty mars 2

    Good one James – don't let the idiot bridges get free hits in – he is destructive and is only interested in his own promotion. Simon is totally unsuited to high office.

    Mr Shaw said Mr Bridges' position was "desperate" and "completely irresponsible".

    "Stats NZ – their success ratings for the information that they put out on a weekly basis is between 99 percent and 100 percent … and when they do have errors, they correct them, they publish the methodology, they get them third-party reviewed.

    "The idea that you can say, 'Oh, they made a mistake over here, therefore, I don't trust anything that they've produced', I think is, frankly, absurd."

    The Opposition had a strategy to undermine public confidence in statistics in a bid to retake power "at any cost", Mr Shaw said.

    "The lessons of Trump, the lessons of Brexit, and the lessons of the Australian election seem to have gone to Simon Bridges' head and this 'burn-the-house-down' in order to win approach … is a very, very bad turn for New Zealand politics.

    "He doesn't really care what the collateral damage is along the way … and I don't know how he expects to govern if he totally destroys public confidence in the basis of evidence-based decision making."

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/396710/simon-bridges-comment-a-very-bad-turn-for-nz-politics-james-shaw

    • weka 2.1

      Wow, he's not holding back. I like it.

    • Wensleydale 2.2

      That's the spirit, James, my son. Put the boot in good and proper. Bridges would do it to you in a heartbeat and National don't seem to care about much of anything other than getting their sweaty paws on the levers of power once more. Give that floppy-haired muppet both barrels.

  3. vto 3

    It occurred to me the other day that if our system is designed to have 3.5% unemployment then our system must adequately compensate those required by the system to be unemployed…

    mustn't it? This is the first question.

    Once answered, the second question might then be, by how much should these people, who are required to be unemployed, be compensated? My 2c says one hell of a lot more than the dole. They should be up there with other employed people.

    shouldn't they?

    After all – both Labour and National require 3.5% of our working people to not have a job.

    Shameful really, especially for a Labour party.

    • Too too radical by far @vto!!! It'd be a slippery slope. We might have to start thinking about the UNDER-employed. Then all those folks OVER-employed in two or three jobs that still don't earn enough to pay the bills. The next thing you know we'd have to seriously worry about all those being exploited. Can't be done! The resources required would be immense unless we could find an app for it all

    • Nic the NZer 3.2

      Too right vto. As an alternative to running an unemployed buffer stock (the reserve army of the unemployed -Marx) the government could run an employed buffer stock by implementing a Job Guarantee policy. This would perform better than the present policy as employed people find it easier to find alternate work, so the Job Guarantee workers would be better at getting non Job Guarantee work. It would also be more fair by setting a floor on the labour market of full time minimum wage work (anybody worse off will always have this as a minimum alternative). This would restrain inflation equally as well as the present policy does.

    • Kevin 3.3

      Best comment I have read on here all year.

      Definite food for thought.

    • David 3.4

      “Required to be unemployed”

      Nice one. Clearly absolutely no understanding of economics or the workings of an economy at all.

      Priceless and best laugh I’ve had this week.

      • Grant 3.4.1

        "Whilst full employment is often an aim for an economy, most economists see it as more beneficial to have some level of unemployment, especially of the frictional sort. In theory, this keeps the labor market flexible, allowing room for new innovations and investment. As in the NAIRU theory, the existence of some unemployment is required to avoid accelerating inflation.

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Full_employment#%22Ideal%22_unemployment

      • Wensleydale 3.4.2

        Unlike you, who knows an awful lot about economics but not much about how the real world functions. If everyone was in gainful employment, demand for labour would be high meaning wages would have to be sufficiently generous to tempt workers… and employers have night-terrors about those sorts of scenarios. "Raise wages?! Noooooo! Quickly! Someone prise Kirk Hope out of his sarcophagus so he can bleat about plummeting business confidence again!" Bill English openly stated a low-wage economy was a fabulous thing… obviously not a man in receipt of low wages. As a general rule, the people at the top are largely indifferent to the people at the bottom — sacrifices must be made and all that, and they're fine with it just so long as they're not the ones having to make the sacrifices.

      • gsays 3.4.3

        Please explain where the humour lies David.

        Unless you are a homeless tory, looking for shelter now that Slaters place is no more….

    • Ed1 3.5

      I don't know where you get the impression that our system is designed to have 3.5% unemployed. At any given time there are many people who are unemployed for a variety of reasons – for example some may have left a job because of a fall out with their employer (and yes that can happen even in our fabulous private companies), or a desire to change the type of work they do, or because their family has moved, or becuause an employer has gone out of business and they can't afford to move to where there are more jobs, or or they are looking for their first job and don't have enough experience for most job vacancies, they are a 'return to workforce' person (after having a family, being on a temporary contract in NZ or overseas, had an extended holiday, been studying for jobs in a developing industry . . .). The physically and mentally disabled are I understand not counted as unemployed unless they are looking for work, but there will be people on the margin of that category who will find it difficult to get jobs. I leave it to you to decide which of those are designed in the system, and which are perhaps over-counted in the characterisation of unemployed by some politicians, and whether there are other categories.

      Then you may be in a better position to tell us your view on which categories you believe should be paid by government one hell of a lot more than the dole, and whether by "up there with other employed people" you mean something like the average wage (Mean? Median?) or whether you envisage it being a bit like unemployment insurance – linked to previous earnings, or earnings for similar age / education / training / skills as persons employed.

      A Labour-led government does of course tend to pay a higher unemployment benefit than a National or National-led government – were you looking for immediate change? – and if so what other spending would you reduce?

      • The Al1en 3.5.1

        Basic Keynesian economics, to which Marx in part agreed. I think it’s to do with being able to fill new jobs with increased growth from a ready made labour pool.

        “According to Karl Marx, unemployment is inherent within the unstable capitalist system and periodic crises of mass unemployment are to be expected. He theorized that unemployment was inevitable and even a necessary part of the capitalist system, with recovery and regrowth also part of the process.”

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unemployment

      • gsays 3.5.2

        Conversely Ed, we could look at how 'employment' is defined nowadays. It was Keys mob that changed definitions, perhaps this lot could re-redefine employment.

        • Ed1 3.5.2.1

          That is certainly a possibility; I don't know the details of changes that may have been made. I do think there is a level of unemployment that relates to flexibility of employment patterns, and the ability of some to pick and choose periods of unemployment. But of course there is unemployment that has been "encouraged" by various governments. Certainly the need for both partners in a marriage to be employed is greater now than over say 20 years ago – and that has had a social cost in children having both parents working. But I suspect even in a system along the ideals of Marx there would be some unemployment, if only to cope with some jobs becoming redundant – in my lifetime typesetters have disappeared for example. However measured, it does appear that a government including Labour is likely to result in higher employment – probably in the region of 1% to 2% – with a largely corresponding lower unemployment figure.

      • Nic the NZer 3.5.3

        You have an incomplete understanding of unemployment. This frequently arises due to a study of economic theory. There are two major categorisations of unemployment. They are voluntary and invountary unemployment. Voluntary is a super set of most of the categories you described, where people could take a job at the market rate but are looking for something better. Involuntary is when there are not enough jobs going for all those who want them at the going rate. In any market such a situation where the market doesn't clear is called a market failure. In most mainstream economic analysis you assume markets reach equilibrium and therefore clear and this is why involuntary unemployment is assumed not to occur (or be a relevant concern for policy). This is the case for the NAIRU rate of which is a parameter of an economic model which has been projected to its equilibrium point. So this is why a lot of analysis ignores the possibility that there could be insufficient jobs due to a lack of total spending (on wages) and why you don't concieve of it in your comment.

    • Heather Grimwoood 3.6

      To vto at 3: I think the 'our system' refers to capitalistic theory. Somewhere in my dim and distant past I was taught that capitalistic theory required desirably 8% unemployment in order to keep the serfs to their grindstones and think those figures were around again in the 'Think Big' talk in Muldoon era.

    • McFlock 3.7

      aaaand there you have a couple of replies in the usual vein of what the privileged say when the evil of NAIRU is unveiled (usually the figure given in the 1990s was 6-8% unemployment). "nobody is forced to be unemployed",

      The other thing being that "unemployment" is now an obsolete term from the days when most people worked full time or almost zero time. "Underemployment" is those 10-30 hour per week jobs that aren't enough for a decent life but don't count you as "unemployed".

      There's always going to be some unemployed under the 20C model – e.g. the last job transition I made had me at home for a week. But slowing down the economy for fear of hurting profits means that some people are deliberately made unemployed. we don't know who, but they exist.

      All moot anyway, as automation comes into its own. 70-80% unemployment will be the norm, so we'll have to destigmatise it sooner or later. When the owners of capital become the suppliers of their own labour, nobody will be able to afford their goods. Which leads to an ever decreasing number of employers and exponentially increasing inequality and the associated ills. Much better to tax the producers and redistribute that wealth to the population so they can create their full potential.

      • The Al1en 3.7.1

        aaaand there you have a couple of replies in the usual vein of what the privileged say when the evil of NAIRU is unveiled (usually the figure given in the 1990s was 6-8% unemployment). "nobody is forced to be unemployed",

        I don't believe (though it's true I may be wrong for once) cheeky that anyone was saying that. I certainly wasn't.

        My interpretation from the above is people were giving a view how that our system, against claims otherwise, does currently rely on a level of unemployment, whether is wanted or warranted.

        Up to them to set the record straight for themselves, but I don't see an attack on the jobless or bene bashing.

        • McFlock 3.7.1.1

          "I don't know where you get the impression that our system is designed to have 3.5% unemployed. "

          As soon as people started getting jobs, the RB would up the OCR to cool off business investment and new hires.

          In the 0ughts the Alliance ISTR had a distinction between endemic unemployment and fluid unemployment (can't remember the exact terms) – the fluid level being 0-3% from simply people taking more than a week to find a new job, but with not real harm to their wellbeing. The endemic level is the unemployment that is artificially created to keep wage pressures down – essentially the NAIRU target.

          • The Al1en 3.7.1.1.1

            I took that quoted post as a rebuttal that our system runs with a need for unemployment not "nobody is forced to be unemployed", but I may have interpreted it incorrectly.

            • McFlock 3.7.1.1.1.1

              It certainly runs with a decision-maker-perceived required level of unemployment.

              But if there's no desired level of unemployment, then unemployment is less likely to be a systemic issue than a personal issue.

              • The Al1en

                I'm not arguing the case for running a keynesian unemployment quota or saying you're incorrect. My point was the capitalist system apparently does, as Marx concurred and stated by others above. I don't see any dolie bashing, in fact, the original post stakes a claim for hefty financial compensation which nobody has argued against.

                • McFlock

                  I didn't have any problem with the original post, no.

                  But it's a bit like child poverty – to get the issue addressed, we have to overcome the tory denial that there's a systemic problem rather than it just being the fault of the individuals.

                  • The Al1en

                    Absolutely, pitch fork and burning torch tory denial and right wing agendas 'til we're all angry mobbed out, though in stating the obvious about the system currently enforced upon us, doesn't equate to support of it, well not on my account anyway. As I wrote above, up to them to confirm or deny it.

                • Nic the NZer

                  See my post above. The economy may require a buffer stock approach to employment to resist inflation, that doesn't mean those in that buffer stock must be unemployed for it to work.

                  With regard to systematic, its still the governments choice to run it this way. They have alternatives. Other than a Job Guarantee they could just improve on the present by deficit spending until all the involuntary unemployment goes away rather than mindlessly trying to run a budget surplus regardless of the economic situation (coupled with holding the delusion that monetary policy can always by itself completely eliminate involuntary unempoyment).

                  • McFlock

                    To be fair to the current govt, ISTR the agreement with the Reserve Bank increases the objectives of the bank beyond an inflation target.

                    I really think we should be moving away from the concept that "employed for money" is the benchmark of expectation. We're soon going to hit the point where automation just produces too much stuff, and jobs from customer service to driving to manufacturing to business decision-making start to genuinely disappear.

                    Get people creating, occupy their time. The enemy of society isn't unemployment, it's boredom and want.

                    • Nic the NZer

                      The changes in the policy targets only bring it in line with other major central banks targets.

                      I strongly suspect a future with 50% unemployment the norm should be called a distopian future. Fortunately that is not going to happen because of technology. As with other technology developments the nature of work does change but the total quantity needed for maintaining society at a level accepted by society doesn't because expectations increase at the same time.

          • Pat 3.7.1.1.2

            Not strictly true…its the link (modelled) between inflation and employment . The RBNZ makes assumptions about inflation (or NAIRU) with regard to employment rates however the RBNZs goal is an inflation band not employment per se…post GFC we have seen that model appears invalid in the current environment…hence the willingness to adopt extraordinary policy actions now…..and the fact they cant afford the implications of being out of step with the driving economies.

            So in effect it is the projected inflation rate that drives the policy, not employment

            • McFlock 3.7.1.1.2.1

              If I push you aside because I was running after another goal, or I push you aside because I wanted to push you aside for whatever reason, I'm still choosing to push you aside.

              • Pat

                but if you are running after a goal and pushing me aside is unnecessary to achieve that goal would you bother to take the time out to do so?

                • McFlock

                  If it's the most efficient path to that objective, the Reserve Bank would.

                  If you're not in the way, lucky you. If you asre, unfortunate you. But you can't actually know if you're in the way or not – you just get shoved, that's how you find out.

                  • Pat

                    if its unnecessary it by definition cannot be the most efficient path

                    • McFlock

                      Then you get lucky, keep your job, and maybe even become a small business operator and start moaning about bludgers lol.

                  • Pat

                    You appear to be missing the point….if the goal is an inflation target and the link between employment and inflation is not operating then there is no need to consider it until such time as the link returns…should it do so.

                    • McFlock

                      What makes you think the assumed link isn't operational? It's clearly still part of RBNZ's methodology.

                  • Pat

                    It is less clearly part of RBNZs methodology now..to the point of lip service I would suggest.

                    What is causing the questioning of the Philips curve (not just my assertion)?….perhaps the high employment rates and the absence of inflation post GFC.

                    The explanation lies elsewhere

  4. Muttonbird 4

    Seriously?

    Someone's got to go. This is tone-deaf bureaucratic incompetence. If JA is going to show her tough side, this is the time to do it.

    https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2019/08/alleged-christchurch-shooter-sent-seven-letters-from-prison.html

    • "Seriously?"

      Yes unfortunately. "Someone's got to go"

      You mean as in someone like as in what happened at Stats NZ.

      It shouldn't be too hard though because rather than the 'someone' being a Master of the Universe, they'd only be a Mistress of the Universe and there'd be no danger of the opposition accusing them of throwing them under the bus – most buses around Wellington are either Not In Service, or they've been cancelled.

    • marty mars 4.2

      Yep agreed. Bloody shocking really imo

    • Someone's got to go, because they've allowed a remand prisoner to receive and send letters? Is this who's-toughest-on-crime week or something?

      • marty mars 4.3.1

        no it's reduce hate speech by a white supremacist murderer who has committed the worst mass killing in NZ by targeting Muslim NZers – been on the news I'm surprised you haven't heard about it

      • Muttonbird 4.3.2

        Tone deaf.

      • OnceWasTim 4.3.3

        It must be a dreary old life seeing everything in black and white with everything either on or off. I don't think anyone is suggesting a prisoner shouldn't be able to communicate with legal reps or family members but at least they should be able to expect a level of competence and discretion from the nations' servants when they come across something that's clearly designed to keep some sick fuk's desire to kill people he doesn't like from spreading

        • Psycho Milt 4.3.3.1

          You think no-one's suggesting remand prisoners shouldn't be allowed to send and receive mail? Newshub's shock/horror intro for the linked article is

          The man accused of the Christchurch mosque attack has been able to send seven letters from prison.

          The horror! Kelvin Davis is appalled:

          He successfully sent two to his mother and five to unknown recipients.

          Davis told The AM Show he's disappointed with the mistake and has received an apology from those responsible.

          Clearly something must be done about accused murderers being allowed to write letters:

          Davis says he's questioning whether New Zealand's laws are fit for purpose and is seeking advice from Corrections on a potential law change.

          But he's already onto it:

          Inmates in New Zealand prisons are entitled to send and receive mail, a practice the Minister has put on hold while the situation is assessed.

          No more letters for you, crims! Looks pretty black and white to me.

          • OnceWasTim 4.3.3.1.1

            I'm in agreement with all that @ Psycho – i.e. that because someone fucked up, panic sets in so that a blanket no communication edict is applied.

            We're really talking about 2 letters. And we're probably talking about complacency and yea/nah attitude or even under-resourcing so that those actually responsible can shift the shit off their plates.

          • McFlock 4.3.3.1.2

            We don't want people writing to their mums! They don't have mums anyway, they're monsters! /sarc

            Read them, censor objectionable bits, intercept the ones sent to harrass victims, but allow normal human contact with someone other than the other criminals with whom they're detained.

            If the minister has genuinely ruled that no prisoner should be allowed to send letters to friends and family, fuck that guy. If he's making shit up for the media, fuck that guy.

            Basically, in this instance, Kelvin Davis is totally wrong.

            • Psycho Milt 4.3.3.1.2.1

              Looks like Standard Operational Bullshit:

              1. Some poor sod fails to notice line in prisoner's letter that he should have censored.

              2. Journos uncover the mistake and turn it into a "Corrections soft on crims!" story.

              3. Minister gets wheeled out to pronounce it a shocking systemic failure that won't be tolerated and processes will be reviewed.

              4. Prisoners find their access to mail is revoked for the duration, if not permanently.

      • Dukeofurl 4.3.4

        "they've allowed a remand prisoner to receive and send letters?"

        Are making a point that prisoners cant have mail – thats a breach of human rights.

        https://www.hrc.co.nz/enquiries-and-complaints/faqs/prisoners-rights/

        In these circumstances other than family members , because he is in breach, no more letters to or from' supporters'

      • Ed1 4.3.5

        Well spotted. The blame game is much easier than real journalism, which would have found out whether any laws or administrative laws had been broken before publicising an item on a website few New Zealanders would ever look at were it not publicised . . .

        • Rapunzel 4.3.5.1

          After having to listen to the appalling Peter Williams spend the morning raving on this and at several points crossing the line in his descriptions of people. After being appalled himself he had a listener who had seen the letter email it to him and proceeded to be even more "aghast" and then he had Bridges on the extend the "aghasted-ness" to fever pitch. But something was raised and that was that in the letter the offender had replied his thanks to the recipient, and the one who put the letter on-line, for the stamps "which he would have to hide from guards, officials etc".

          Did these stamps become invisible once they went on to an envelope that was then sent? Apparently the first six pages was general rambling but the last ½ page contained threats or similar. Has no one considered that if he had a letter read and then placed it in an envelope that the letter may not have been read in it's entirety and the further possiblity that the did not go through the normal channels and was conveyed out for posting by a "friendly" staff member. The number of untrustworthy people currently means that all options should be looked at as to how this happened.

          • Wensleydale 4.3.5.1.1

            Peter Williams is the male equivalent of Maggie Barry. Someone who for years lulled you into a false sense of security with their seemingly amiable and easy-going broadcasting temperament, only to then reveal the frothing, swivel-eyed lunacy lurking just beneath the surface.

            Say what you like about Hosking and Richardson, at least they don't pretend to be anything other than the revolting specimens they are.

          • Ed1 4.3.5.1.2

            Do prison staff routinely read every letter that is sent to or from a prisoner? Really?

            And do they ensure that visitors do not have any device that could record a conversation, and do they monitor telephone calls?

            I'm still unaware of what procedure or rule has been ignored by prison staff that would have prevented this prisoner sending the offending letter.

            Sometimes facts are useful . . .

            .. . . and within the edit time, I discovered this:
            http://norightturn.blogspot.com/2019/08/nazis-prisons-and-mail.html

            Let us see how long it takes for the “media” to get their facts straight . . .

          • Shadrach 4.3.5.1.3

            Why did you 'have' to listen? Someone tie you to the radio?

            • Incognito 4.3.5.1.3.1

              Such limited range of possibilities and such limited contribution to the discussion thread …

              • Shadrach

                The point is why listen "to the appalling Peter Williams spend the morning…" if it is so painful?

                • Incognito

                  That would indeed be the point if you stopped reading the comment after the twelfth word.

                  • Shadrach

                    Everything that follows after the 12th word is only there because Rapunsel listened to someone she appears to lathe for an entire morning.

                    • Incognito

                      Many thanks for pointing that out. Your contributions to TS, all in good faith, of course, are invaluable in unimaginable ways.

  5. Sanctuary 5

    Suzie Ferguson is such a tiresome presenter. On the radio she is boringly trivial and predictable over demanding to know if the minister of corrections should have been personally censoring the Christchurch terrorist's mail.

    FFS. Kelvin Davis should just tell her to not be such an idiot – he has a department for running corrections.

    More to the point, the current RNZ tactic of having a couple of stroppy but unintelligent presenters constant hectoring for someone to blame is really, really annoying and utterly incapable of casting any new light on anything.

    RNZ have really fallen off the pace recently – trying to be a polite version of Newstalk ZB is a load of old clarts.

    • AB 5.1

      Yeah – the questioning is designed to entrap the interviewee and apportion blame at an individual level. It seems she has little idea how big, complex systems operate. It doesn't take too much insight to pick that this is a case where Corrections standard operating procedures and a prisoner's legal rights around communication are not a good fit for this highly unusual inmate. Should someone have realised this earlier and raised concerns to the appropriate level in the hierarchy? Yes of course – but that's not even interesting. What is interesting is how you deal with this without imposing new rules that will end up being used punitively against other, more 'normal' prisoners.

    • Gabby 5.2

      Sometimes i think it's not persistence so much as just a touch of thickness. She genuinely seems to miss the point at times.

    • New view 5.3

      Sanctuary. You forgot to say in your opinion. That’s all your comment is. As is mine. One could say your comment is unintelligent. Swap jobs with Ferguson and see how you would get on. Journalists are like they are because they can’t get a straight answer out of anyone and can’t get anybody to take ownership of anything. It’s not a lot to ask of corrections to make sure a psychopathic mass killer who would want to spread his message, have his mail scrutinised by the top Brass at the prison. There have already been other murders overseas that have been inspired by Christchurch. If the people running our prisons are that dumb they should be replaced and Kelvin Davis needs to make that happen. The likes of Suzy Ferguson and Kathryn Ryan come across as irritatingly persistent because politicians are masters at talking in circles and saying fuck all

  6. aj 6

    And she also repeats questions. Expecting different answers, no doubt. Kelvin was very patient with her. For a while I though Corin Dann transition to radio had made him easier to put up with. After a few weeks, no.

  7. esoteric pineapples 7

    Why Ihumātao and Capitalism will never agree

    I was just musing with a fellow bus traveller on how the Republicans and Democrats are two sides of the same American capitalist coin which only allow change within a capitalist framework, and certainly won’t allow any threat to the capitalist system itself, much like National and Labour in New Zealand (and to be fair pretty much all the political parties presently in Parliament).

    I’ve often thought that the indigenous cultures that capitalism encountered while expanding globally were close to wiped out not just because the land they occupied was required for the expansion of the capitalist system, but because they lived successfully using other systems to the capitalist system.

    Not that I am claiming one system is innately superior to another, but any system, and in this case the capitalist system, will act to protect its own existence because a section of society that belongs to that system is benefiting from it.

    As long as any memory of an alternative system in the form of the previous indigenous system remains, it presents a threat to capitalism.

    Because Ihumātao is an indigenous- led movement that threatens the foundation of capitalism which is the rights of private property owners over all other rights, it innately presents a threat to capitalism, and ultimately no compromise is possible.

    In this sense, it is part of a long list of small rebellions by Maori and their supporters since the end of the New Zealand Wars.

    Without being unkind to those iwi who don’t support the protests (and have every right not to), they are a part of the capitalist system and don’t pose a threat to it. The capitalist system is accommodating to anyone who agrees to play the rules of capitalism. However, the protestors are demanding (whether they know it or not) that the rules are changed.

    Which makes their demands revolutionary and unacceptable.

    NB I am not saying capitalism is good or evil, just outlining what is being played out at the moment and where it is likely to lead.

    • Ad 7.1

      Iwi already had a deal done on open market with Fletchers. No conflict with capitalism there.

    • millsy 7.2

      Ihumatao is essentially a battle between the up and coming progressive rangitahi against the conservative tribal kaumatua elites who, along with their families, have reaped the lion's share of iwi assets and treaty settlements. The reason why people want this stomped on, is because they don't want rangitahi in Tainui, Ngati Porou, Tuhoe, Ngati Whatua, Ngapuhi, Ngai Rahul making similar claims on tribal wealth.

    • Anne 8.1

      Thanks for the heads up r0b.

      Another example of 'market forces' trashing something that wasn't broken in the first place. I spent four years working for the old AKTV2 and while we lacked the advanced technology of today, our output – technical and productive – was solid and dependable. News and current affairs programmes were the backbone of the old NZ Broadcasting Corporation and the leading journalists and reporters ran rings around what now passes for journalism these days.

      Imo, market forces are responsible for the rapidly falling standards of reporting – especially on our major TV networks. It's no longer about keeping the population informed, but rather manipulating them towards a perspective (commercial or political) that suits the owners of the media company.

      Oh dear I could go on and on……

      I've been waiting for a Labour government to start "levelling the playing field" but so far nothing of note has happened.

      • Dukeofurl 8.1.1

        Election policy from Labour

        'The $38m a year in additional funding for quality New Zealand programming and journalism will be apportioned by an independent Public Media Funding Commission between RNZ+ and NZ On Air. NZ On Air would be able to consider bids for independent investigative journalism from this fund. This will ensure funding decisions are made at arm’s length from the political interests of the Government of the day."

        Did you check the media releases ? Seems you were a journalist or such

        https://www.beehive.govt.nz/speech/public-media-funding-allocation

        Would you be able to look up the 2019 numbers ?

    • David Mac 8.2

      Market Forces are responsible for the changes we've seen in our news delivery but I think it has little to do with the whims of rich owners and cuddling our govt broadcasting.

      There has been a paradigm shift with that most fundamental ingredient for any service provider – The Customers.

      The 6 o'clock news bulletin was a must watch for my Dad, now he clicks a button and gets the latest bulletin whenever it suits him. Every second person on the bus didn't have a phone in their face, it was a newspaper. Remember those headlines 'Two of every 3 NZers watched the final episode of MASH.'

      We're currently getting the media we deserve because providers are yet to latch onto an efficient method to tap into our wallets. Google and Facebook have found a way. They place ads for discounted fridges in front of people that searched Harvey Norman and Noel Leeming websites for fridges last night. I think our media generally will walk this path. We become a whole lot more tolerant of fridge ads when we're shopping for one.

  8. francesca 9

    I'll be interested to know whether the US DOJ will pursue the extradition of Ghislaine Maxwell with half the enthusiasm they bring to bear on Assange.

    Epstein's so far unexplained death in a high security prison , if it had occurred in Russia would by now, have incurred immediate Magnitsky style sanctions

    • Gabby 9.1

      Probably depends on what she knows and about whom. Maybe they're 'worried' she might be 'suicidal'.

    • gsays 10.1

      Hey Grey, did you catch the Mark Blyth presentation someone posted a few days back? He covers off a few subjects including Trump, Brexit and CC.

      He reckons that Corbyns aim is for Thatcher's conservative party to split in two over Brexit. This, from the guy who predicted Trumps election (and re-election) and the Brexit referendum.

      • greywarshark 10.1.1

        gsays

        The one I just heard was different but he's very clear on what will happen with Brexit – in this comment he callis an example of the end of democracy because the elites will do what they want despite the public's wish and it is an example of Trumpism.

        And from what I have read I can't see that he is wrong.

        • greywarshark 10.1.1.1

          This is a long address. Just sit in your chair, Mark Blyth will fire words at you and you have to keep trying to hold each point while he lobs his next ones. Quite exhilirating. NZ is mentioned as the place to fuck off to when you have made a successful ‘presentation’ of a large new idea.

          I love the bit where he makes fun of the Left for beiang fiscally tight while the Right don’t and all the time the gummint is issuing the money anyway. It is being anally retentive

          • greywarshark 10.1.1.1.1

            Note that I have paraphrased him in my comment above – for instance he didn't use the term 'anally retentive' – it just occurred to me as a possible slick phrase for what our Left are.

  9. greywarshark 11

    Interesting that caught my eye:

    https://www.bbc.com/news/business-48844278
    The Penny Post revolutionary who transformed how we send letters
    (Rowland Hill)

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/05/18/2019-world-beard-moustache-championships-pictures/

  10. greywarshark 12

    business

    14 Aug 2019

    Are we blinded by the bright lights of overseas CEOs?

    From The Panel, 4:51 pm on 14 August 2019

    Listen duration 3′ :48″
    Fran O'Sullivan had a good column in yesterday's New Zealand Herald about chief executives in New Zealand, and whether we're starstruck by overseas CEOs.

    • Gabby 12.1

      We know the locals are incompetent, we hope the furriners might not be (we're mostly wrong).

      • greywarshark 12.1.1

        They should employ the Standard hive-mind. Trouble is nothing would ever get done, I fear or the practical realities would be pushed aside in order to get consensus and feelgood.

  11. Sanctuary 13

    So Swinson, "Centrists" and neo-lib metro remainers what do you want more, to stop Jeremy Corbyn or to stop Brexit? The choice is yours.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/aug/14/jeremy-corbyn-urges-opposition-leaders-and-tory-rebels-to-help-oust-pm

  12. joe90 14

    Three trials later.

    WASHINGTON (AP) — A former Blackwater security contractor was sentenced Wednesday to life in prison for his role in the 2007 shooting of unarmed civilians in Iraq that left 14 people dead.

    Federal judge Royce Lamberth issued the sentence after a succession of friends and relatives requested leniency for Nicholas Slatten, who was found guilty of first-degree murder by a jury in December.

    […]

    Slatten himself told the judge that he was a victim of an “unjust prosecution” and that government lawyers cared more about producing a conviction than uncovering the truth of what happened in Baghdad 12 years ago.

    “This is a miscarriage of justice and it will not stand,” he said.

    But Judge Lambert, in issuing the life sentence, dismissed much of the family’s claims that Slatten was a scapegoat for international political considerations.

    “The jury got it exactly right,” he said. “This was murder.”

    https://www.courthousenews.com/ex-blackwater-contractor-sentenced-to-life-in-iraq-shootings/

  13. greywarshark 15

    After a 35 year recess I think that it is time for a Labour government to start work on making NZ a land fit for the unskilled, ie fit for anyone to live in whether they are of the favoured ones or not.

    For all the rhetoric about caring for little vulnerable ones, those in power prefer to publicise the depravity of the lower income below the strugglers level, and snatch their babies in a fit of heightened irritation and condemnation.

    That is more dramatic than working to enable each young person to stand tall, knowing that they have support for their learning to manage themselves, whether or not they have effective family homes. Give them advice and practice at skills when at school level, part of their secondary learning would be to build tiny homes, to be sold on. And do some cooking and cleaning in the model home that stays on site. Get a small job, and if they start children soon, have parenting classes for males and females, some together and some apart with lots of discussion. Help them into a home, and by now they will know how to look after it.

    But help them into homes, where they need to demonstrate their abilities.

    https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2019/08/15/new-research-supports-cpags-call-for-a-housing-wof-and-boosted-incomes/

    CPAG (Child Poverty Action Group) says that new research from the University of Otago provides a solid foundation for why the Government must not delay instating a comprehensive Warrant of Fitness for tenanted homes in Aotearoa-New Zealand, and boosting family incomes.

    The recent study led by Dr Tristram Ingram found that almost 20 percent of hospital admissions for acute respiratory infections in children under the age of two years could have been prevented through having healthier housing conditions.

  14. A 16

    Seems there are 101 reasons to implement the WEAG Report recommendations.

    This from Kay Brereton

    The conclusion we all came to is the system is broken. After 30 years as a political football, the welfare system is no longer coherent, and it is no longer delivering the wellbeing or the economic outcomes it was designed to.

    Instead it is full of tacked-on "fixes" that have created other problems, policy driven by political stunts rather than useful outcomes, and perverse incentives. We found endless examples of policy that make it harder for people to return to work or training, that punish them for honesty, and that further marginalise them from the very society that the system was originally set up to help support.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/115018412/benefit-rates-need-to-rise-and-now-for-people-and-the-economy

    Regardless of what you think of welfare I would hope we allow changes to facilitate returning to work at a bare minimum. We need this to change right away.

  15. Robert Guyton 17

    34

    15 August 2019 at 3:20 pm

    Because Australia is exempt from the climate crisis, aye!

    "Leaders on Thursday morning went into a retreat to discuss the the final wording of the Funafuti Declaration, which some nations are demanding should include limiting temperatures to 1.5 degrees and more international investment in the United Nation's Green Climate Fund.

    But it's understood some nations have softened their demands to have the references included for the sake of a unified statement, with Australia succeeding in its push to not have the term "climate change crisis" in the communique."

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/world/south-pacific/115029193/winston-peters-takes-heat-off-australia-after-pms-climate-challenge

    • Poission 17.1

      Well Winston is PM when whats her name is clocking up her air miles.

      • Dukeofurl 17.1.1

        NZ Herald looked into Key at same time after 2008 — guess what his 'air miles' were much the same. Oh and this

        'Govt's 100 days of action' includes 28-day holiday

        https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10551422

        Bill English used to have sign things while Key was away, things that Key didnt want his name on if it all blew up. he was careful like that

      • Red Blooded One 17.1.2

        Awh sweetie, the bitterness in your “What’s her name” comment is priceless. Some might even say it is “Poission’ess” you’ll fit right in to Paula Bennetts snarky campaign if her performance of the tele this morning is anything to go by.

        • Dukeofurl 17.1.2.1

          The details about Travel man

          JOHN KEY

          2008

          • Peru, UK (Apec, Bilateral)

          2009
          • Port Moresby (special PIF)
          • Tonga, Samoa, Niue, Cook Islands (Pacific Mission)
          • Cairns (PIF)
          • Thailand, Malaysia, Seoul, Japan (bilateral visits)
          • Singapore (Apec)
          • Trinidad and Tobago (Chogm)
          • Copenhagen (COP15)

          2010
          • Washington DC, Ottawa (Nuclear Security Summit, bilateral)
          • Turkey, Kuwaiti, UAE (partially completed)
          • Dubai (resumed)
          • Korea, China, Vietnam (bilateral visits)
          • Port Vila (PIF)

          • The Al1en 17.1.2.1.1

            And our ex tourism ministers frequent trips to Hawaii?

          • Fireblade 17.1.2.1.2

            Was he a part-time PM or something? Lazy bastard!

          • Red Blooded One 17.1.2.1.3

            Were any of those the trip he chose to go and watch his son play Basketball rather than attend a military funeral? meanwhile Simon when not in a limousine driving around the country to introduce himself to the country is flying off to Aus to get instructions from Scott Morrison. Short term memories from the likes of Poisson etc. We can expect a lot more of it.

          • Poission 17.1.2.1.4

            He didn't think CC was a crisis,JA does.

      • Gabby 17.1.3

        Who dat, Possy?

    • greywarshark 17.2

      Consensus – unified – what a false premise that idea. It should be 80/20 with the objectors or detractors comments and facts noted in detail, and the question asked 'What would have to change for you to agree with the proposal before us? And for what reason does the proposal fall short of its intentions? Do you disagree with its intentions? If not this, then what?

      Faffing around waiting for some concrete-head to agree – there is not time to wait around, the bus is leaving. There are less and less buses available.

  16. gsays 18

    Gotta say the quality of the rwnj round these parts has gone down since the plug was pulled elsewhere.

  17. Eco maori 19

    Awesome that most of the next generation get it about climate change and the way te oil barons money works to suppress the fact on Global warming We have had the warmest month on record

    Young people taking big steps for the environment

    Thousands of young people around the world have stood up, demanding that their voices be heard.

    BRADEN FASTIER/STUFF

    Thousands of young people around the world have stood up, demanding that their voices be heard.

    To celebrate International Youth Day, which this week fell on Monday, the Nelson Environment Centre took a look at young people in the region who are doing big things for the environment.

    We have reached the point where action must be taken on the big environmental issues that scientists have been telling us about for decades. The people who will be most affected by the present inaction are those that are only just learning about these issues – our children and grandchildren.

    So it is no surprise that students and youth around the world are starting to advocate for change.

    Local students are joining this movement and one of the ways they do this is through the Enviroschools Programme. This home-grown, national programme uses an action learning approach designed to support the community to connect with their place, to investigate the issues relevant to them and design solutions together.

    We are proud that the majority of the schools in Nelson and Tasman are participating Enviroschools.

    Many Nelsonians will remember the student protest for climate action on March 15, when Josephine Ripley and Emma Edwards of the Nelson College for Girls (NCG) Enviro Action Group helped to organise Nelson student's participation in Schools 4 Climate action, the global youth environmental movement begun by Swedish student climate activist Greta Thunberg

    Ka kite Ano

  18. Robert Guyton 20

    Letter to the editor (published today in The Southland Times and titled by them:

    Those boring billboards

    Message to all candidates for local body elections; billboards are boring!

    Hard-working Southlanders, especially those living in Invercargill, have to drive past our uninspiring faces and irritating slogans for weeks on end and are generally too polite to take a black-marker to them to express their annoyance. Let’s all do something different this time around; entertain and amuse those whose votes we are chasing, with creative billboards, fun billboards, the likes of which have never been seen before! I’m happy start the ball rolling; I’ve still got my original billboards that show a younger me with a dark, clipped and tidy beard. Now that I’m 9 years down the councillor track, my beard is full and as white as a summer cloud. I’m going to up-date my billboards by glueing-on a fluffy, lamb’s-wool beard that would make Father Christmas proud! How about the rest of you? Have you any creative bones in your bodies? Let’s do the voting public a favour and make campaigning fun for a change!

    Robert Guyton

    (any feedback from TS readers welcome smiley

  19. Eco maori 21

    These sandflys got nothing better to do than follow Eco Maori around and interfere in every thing I try a buy what car wreckers don't have Toyota parts YEA RIGHT THE Rotorua wrecker are being bullyed by the sandflys

    Ka kite Ano

  20. Eco maori 22

    Kia Ora Newshub.

    Someone in the correction system is helping these idiots who can get letters sent from prison They are saying that the fool who's at the centre of the Christchurch desaster YEA RIGHT.

    Don't stress to much like I have said once everyone figures out that if they are not doing anything to save our mokopuna future environment they will be excluded from the bonanza of the Green Revolution

    Eco Maori agrees that the Russian Pilots are heroes for landing that huge passenger plane in a corn paddock with no loss of life Awsome

    Ingrid its cooler were I am at the minute

    Ka kite Ano

  21. Eco maori 23

    Kia Ora Te Ao Maori News

    Ka pai that a MRI Machine for Turangi A Kiwa its great that our Coalition Government is investing more putea for health care in regions with big tangata whenua population . I say changing back to the old ways of non machine harvesting of mussle spat on the 90 mile Beach is the best way way to preserve tuatua and the mussle spat it will also spread the wealth around to more people

    Sonia keeping Maori tridional weaving going strong is great our tipuna were quite industrial in the way they did things it was the whole hapu working as one I would like to see that happen again Ma Te Wa.
    Ka pai that rangitahi wahine Rugby is going strong that is another goal of mine Equality for our wahine so they can keep the tane on the straight and narrow line Eco Maori got a new Hueawa phone today great deal to try stuffing with this device sandflys

    Ka kite Ano

  22. Eco maori 24

    Whanau one of my favourite fish is close to collapseing Tarakihi Eco Maori is not spraying wai into the wind on our FISHERIES topic. The difference between line fishing and trawling is trawling is like rounding up sheep with a bulldozer it WRECKS our fishes habitats fish need places to hide from the bigger fish they need a whare the way we fish now is destroying their Whare no whare no fish.

    I wish for all inshore fishing to be caught by line fishing we know that most small fish caught on a hook can be released and they will servive .Even though they have this fancy new codend design it still doesn't stop the trawl gear wrecking the bottom the fishes habitat Whanau in 50 years time OUR mokopuna will have heaps of wealth fisher people paying big bucks to come and fish in our pristine fisheries If we don't charge the way the inshore fishing is to line fishing Tarakihi will become extinct .

    When I was younger 35 years ago I got sick of bacon and eggs and beans for breakfast I would get a Tarakihi and cook it with wai and onions reka .

    Christchurch fish and chip shop refuses to sell tarakihi until stocks recover

    A Christchurch fish and chip shop is urging other businesses to stop selling one of New Zealand's favourite fish over fears for the species' survival.

    Fush owner Anton Matthews stopped serving tarakihi this week after hearing stocks of the fish have dropped to worrying levels.

    A Fisheries New Zealand assessment estimated the abundance of tarakihi on the East Coast to be 15.9 per cent of what it would be in the absence of all fishing. The fishery was considered to be sustainable at 40 per cent.

    Matthews said 16 per cent was something to worry about and he wanted to be part of the solution, not the problem

    He called for New Zealanders to demand their fish be caught on lines rather than in nets. Fush sources its fish from West Coast fishing company Westfleet, which catches its fish using lines.

    "New Zealanders should be demanding fish is line caught in the same way they demand their eggs are free range

    The Government cut the tarakihi quota by 20 per cent last year and was considering reducing the commercial catch by a further 31 per cent

    "If you do absolutely nothing does a crisis fix itself? The housing crisis is not going to fix itself, climate change is not going to fix itself. Tarakihi is rebuilding.

    Forest and Bird is pushing for a 40 per cent reduction in commercial quota alongside protections for important juvenile nursery grounds

    Ka kite Ano link below

    https://i.stuff.co.nz/life-style/food-wine/114998557/christchurch-fish-and-chip-shop-refuses-to-sell-tarakihi-until-stocks-recover

    • Stuart Munro. 24.1

      I'd agree, except for flats – the little trawls used for flats don't do much damage, and they stay over sand or mud bottoms because anything else will break them. They're as close to a harmless trawl as you get.

      There might be some live capture systems worth looking at too – box nets or pots allow fish to be returned unharmed, and tend to use much less fuel than trawling.

      I think it's time we started proper nursery strategies for our key species too, just leaving everything to sort itself out was fine with a smaller population and less stressed fisheries, but that is no longer what we have.

  23. Eco maori 25

    Some Eco Maori Music For The Minute

  24. Eco maori 26

    Some Eco Maori Music For The Minute .

  25. Eco maori 27

    Some Eco Maori Music For The Minute

  26. Eco maori 28

    Kia Ora Newshub.

    I package food is bad for us and the environment I we need to label the sugar and salt content so we know what we are eating The old saying you are what you eat is TRUE

    Flooding in Horowhenua let hope no lives are lost that's part of Global Warming

    Dogs going to the movies that's cool a lot of elderly people have dogs that could get them out and about socialising instead of home alone

    That is a big mess that car causes in Canada wonder how that happened

    Technology is going to make big changes to how we move and communicate and work It will give the wealthy people a unfair advantage to DOMINATE THE 99.9 % of humanity I think laws should be planned NOW to counter that Phenomenon .

    Ka kite Ano

  27. Eco maori 29

    Kia Ora Te Ao Maori News

    Cool all the kapa haka going on in Waikato for the Maori King at Turangawaewae marae.

    They had a sports day to in Waikato sports is good for the wairua and te tamariki

    Eco Maori agree with Ela Henry mana Wahine

    Kereopa Purongo motuhake the whanau had a fire that burned down their whare

    Planting native trees is awesome I believe that the tree that have been planted to try and stop erosion are a quick fix poplar and willow grow for 20 years and fall over making a big mess we should plant native trees like manuka that last much longer and prove food for our native wildlife along side the quick growing exotic trees I wish to see heaps more native trees in Aoteoroa.

    Ka kite Ano

  28. Eco maori 31

    Kia Ora The Hui.

    simon is using the hate card to try and boost his rating YEA RIGHT taking about getting the army to move tangata whenua

    Its excellent that you have our Maori youth Mps giving there points of view on subject in Aotearoa I see that there are 3 to 1 wahine.ka pai.

    I think the logic solution to Te reo staying strong in Aotearoa is Te reo should be compolsery for tangata whenua students less teachers to train one class a day teaching about the TRUE HISTORY of Aotearoa I have read some books for our students and they are not correct in their FACTS it skewers to make tangata whenua look bad.

    I agree racism is ignorince that is one argument for compolsery te reo class for all our tamariki .But I want most tangata whenua to know our historical culture first and for most.

    Ka kite Ano

  29. Eco maori 32

    Ignore what the negative people have to say about the feebate system they did nothing but ruin our commitments to be clean and green while in power. This is a must to get the tangata to change to electric cars it will help save our environment for the mokopuna

    EV feebate plan winning support says minister, as submissions deadline approaches

    JOHN HAWKINS/STUFF

    Dutchman Weibe Wakker has completed his three year journey from the Netherlands in his converted electric Volkswagon Golf named the "The Blue Bandit"

    A feebate scheme that would transfer hundreds of millions of dollars from buyers of higher-emission cars into the pockets of people buying EVs and other more fuel-efficient vehicles has been winning favour with submitters, the Government says.

    Associate Transport Minister Julie Anne Genter said about 80 per cent of the online responses the Transport Ministry had so far received in response to a discussion paper on the feebate scheme and an associated "clean car standard" had supported the policies

    "The scheme is designed to be revenue neutral, I can tell you that," the ministry spokesman said. "So the money paid in will be paid out in terms of rebates

    The Cabinet paper made it clear fees and rebates could be out of sync in any one year of the scheme, if people didn't buy the mix of cars forecast, but said a $25m float could be set up "to manage the risk of over or under-fee collection from year to year

    The ministry expected feebates would value about $200 million during the scheme's first year, which would be in 2021

    Ka kite Ano link below .

    https://i.stuff.co.nz/business/115023391/ev-feebate-plan-winning-support-says-minister-as-submissions-deadline-approaches

  30. Eco maori 33

    Some Eco Maori Music For The Minute

  31. Eco maori 34

    Kia Ora Newshub .

    Tornado use to be a thing that we seen every 5 years now Aotearoa is getting them more often how many now about 10 this year .

    The Coalition government investing $54 million dollars to help get the people under a bridge a whare very good stuff having to live on the streets .

    That was great the NZ Air force helping get boats in the area to rescue people on a stricken boat that is the mahi that all Aotearoa armed forces should be doing Ka pai to the Christchurch fish shop owner for highlighting the demise of tarakihi and dropping it off his menu to save the species But its not only tarakihi that is in danger of collapseing many other will be in a similar state the catch has gone and dubbled so comparison to 30 years ago won't add up to factual data unless this is taken into account .

    Another person falling to their death taking a selfy photo in dangerous situations .?? ??

    There are a lot of happy people in Aotearoa after last night game Ka Kite Ano

  32. Eco maori 35

    Kia Ora Te Ao Maori News .

    That's the way go tau toko the tangata at IhumataoTJ. Mana Wahine Taina

    I watched most of the game but the sandflys swarmed me on my way back to Napier and while I was in Rotorua I fell asleep my brother was watching the game while I was snoring our TV is solar powered .

    Our Vietnam veterans great to see the service today for the veterans I agree with his daughter tho they did not need to be at the Vietnam War I know some whose health suffered because of Agent orange wreaking the health .
    Great win for the Black Ferns Mana Wahine

    Ka kite Ano

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