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Open mike 12/08/2019

Written By: - Date published: 7:00 am, August 12th, 2019 - 153 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

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Step up to the mike …

153 comments on “Open mike 12/08/2019 ”

  1. Adrian Thornton 1

    Inside America's Meddling Machine: NED, the US-Funded Org Interfering in Elections Across the Globe

  2. Pat 2

    His numbers are not accurate but the gist and ultimate question remain to be confronted…

    "The one thing they will not do, however, is confront the brutal, but inescapable, truth that there is only one way this planet will be saved from the effects of the 9 billion human-beings living upon its surface; and that is for more than 8 billion of them to disappear. How that might be achieved, and who should take responsibility for achieving it, are questions which, to date, only novelists and science fiction writers have attempted to answer."


  3. Andre 3

    Inspired by weka's "Totally Shit Farming" post, here's a quick look at the status of non-cow dairy efforts.

    tl;dr, one company has made and sold batches of icecream made from lab-grown whey and casein, and there's others not too far behind. To be sure, the tiny quantities involved make it a publicity stunt rather than a real product. But it's still a big milestone on the way to a real alternative to a cow.



    • greywarshark 3.1

      That gives the farming lobby a reason to keep on with practices that can not be supported and avoid improving their approach. I like the idea of having milk from happy cows, given proper conditions and feed, it is a natural way of getting good food. But the ability to force-feed the animals, and manipulate them to the nth degree, take their colostrum, take the calves away from the mothers at an early age etc etc has warped the dairy system.

      Having dairy replaced by tech is another step away from the needs of the populace; there is money to be made by making business from spoiling the planet and our traditional systems. It is happening with meat, milk, and further, our money exchange being replaced by electrified cards, and on.

    • Sabine 3.2

      i find lab 'grown' as gross as the practices of industrial dairy farming.

      i really would like to go to ethical organic farming.

      this to me is just simply the other extreme of the same scale.

      • Andre 3.2.1

        Sure you've got a preference. And you've probably got a price differential point at which you're willing to pay extra to indulge that preference. But the vast majority of consumers? Not so much.

        When lab-grown synthesised milk becomes an actual thing, something that's going to get a lot more publicity is how engineered the milk we buy already is. Between the cow and bottle, it's cooked, separated into its constituents, then reformulated back to just barely meet the minimum requirements of whatever category it's sold as. Lab-grown constituents will be just a minor change in that context.



        • weka

          When lab-grown synthesised milk becomes an actual thing, something that's going to get a lot more publicity is how engineered the milk we buy already is. Between the cow and bottle, it's cooked, separated into its constituents, then reformulated back to just barely meet the minimum requirements of whatever category it's sold as. Lab-grown constituents will be just a minor change in that context.

          Cooking and pasteurisation aren't quite the same thing, but either can be done in a home kitchen. Full fat milk doesn't get much else done to it afaik, but do share because it's this kind of conflation that leads to people not trusting science.

          • weka

            and once we get over the idiocy of avoid animal fats, more people will want full fat milk again.

          • Andre

            Full fat milk gets the same separation then add back in treatment reduced fat and skim milk get.

            Dairy giant Fonterra has two milk processing plants for local consumption, Palmerston North and in Auckland's Takanini suburb.

            Fonterra's general manager of manufacturing operations Brendon Hurst said the first step was the separation of the cream or fat from the milk to add it back in later to ensure every glass of milk tastes the same.


            • Dukeofurl

              Homogenisation and Standardisation.. 'town supply' has had it for decades

            • weka

              how does that differ from historical separation of cream from milk?

              (leave homogenisation out for now, because it's weird, just shake the bottle)

              • Andre

                The point is the milk we buy in the supermarket is a manipulated engineered product. It's had a shit load more done to it than just squirted out of a cow, made safe, and put in a bottle.

                Forty-odd years ago as a kid doing a milk run I got a tour through the Palmy milk treatment plant. Part of that was tasting a small sample at each step along the way. And every step made a big difference. I'd imagine what was happening then is primitive compared to how it's manipulated now.

                • weka

                  pasteurisation and separating cream from milk can be done at home. Homogenisation is a more industrial process but even that I think is a long step from lab dairy.

                  It's like people who think that splicing genes is the same as selective breeding. If it doesn't matter to you, that's great, you can eat lab dairy. But it will matter to many, and pretending those are all the same kind of tech will create confusion, division and resentment.

                  • Poission

                    Looking back,it seems complex diets from simpler foods,greater (longer work) days, seem to have been a recipe for good health for the working class.

                    Mid-Victorian working class men and women consumed between 50% and 100% more calories than we do, but because they were so much more physically active than we are today, overweight and obesity hardly existed at the working class level. The working class diet was rich in seasonal vegetables and fruits; with consumption of fruits and vegetables amounting to eight to 10 portions per day. This far exceeds the current national average of around three portions, and the government-recommended five-a-day. The mid-Victorian diet also contained significantly more nuts, legumes, whole grains and omega three fatty acids than the modern diet. Much meat consumed was offal, which has a higher micronutrient density than the skeletal muscle we largely eat today [59]. Prior to the introduction of margarine in the late Victorian period, dietary intakes of trans fats were very low. There were very few processed foods and therefore little hidden salt, other than in bread (Recipes suggest that significantly less salt was then added to meals. At table, salt was not usually sprinkled on a serving but piled at the side of the plate, allowing consumers to regulate consumption in a more controlled way.). The mid-Victorian diet had a lower calorific density and a higher nutrient density than ours. It had a higher content of fibre (including fermentable fibre), and a lower sodium/potassium ratio. In short, the mid-Victorians ate a diet that was not only considerably better than our own, but also far in advance of current government recommendations. It more closely resembles the Mediterranean diet, proven in many studies to promote health and longevity; or even the ‘Paleolithic diet’ recommended by some nutritionists [60].


                    • weka

                      that was interesting!

                      My uncle (born around WW1 I think) used to do that with his salt, got a lot of ribbing about it that he ignored. I have a context to put his habit in now.

                      I'll be reading the article. The nutrient density doesn't surprise me, the low levels of animal fat does.

                      Victorian margarine though, what?

                  • Andre

                    Sure. I'd imagine in a possible future, those who find the distinction important will still be able to buy the boutique product from a cow at enormous price with emission fees, pollution fees, animal welfare fees and so on.

                    And those that don't care at all, or only care about nutritional value and taste, or can't afford the boutique stuff out of a cow, will end up eating cheese and yoghurt and maybe even directly drinking the stuff that comes from industrial vats.

                    • weka

                      What I'd like to see is more honesty about lab dairy. That it needs to be presented as being the same as cow's milk suggests there isn't as much acceptance of it as you believe.

      • Grey Area 3.2.2

        Do you mean ethical organic farming of animals?

        • Sabine


          Humans are omnivores, we can luckily survive by eating clay.

          To me lab grown is the other extreme to industrial farming. As far removed from nature and natural occurance as can be giving a false sense of food security while the planet still is being treated as a rubbish bin.

          so yes, ethical farming, less eating, paying the full price of food, paying even the full price of gasoline, and such. Cause us here in the spoiled western world we have not paid the full price on anything in a long time. We like the stuff that we eat, that we wrap our selfs in, that we use to enterain us, that houses us all to be cheap.

          • Grey Area

            Just because humans can eat animal flesh doesn't mean they should.

            I am genuinely interested in the ethics of killing an animal to eat it (or paying someone else indirectly to do it), which I'm sure the animal doesn't want, and which is unnecessary given humans can exist perfectly well on a plant-based diet.

            • McFlock

              Besides the blatant anthropomorphising, that's a pretty loose use of "perfectly well".

              • Grey Area

                Both of which I stand behind.

                The documentary evidence I've seen of animals going to slaughter kind of shows me they are not choosing to have their throats cut. They are sentient beings who feel terror just like we do.

                And a balanced plant-based diet is healthy, nutricious and good for the planet. What's not to like about that?

                • McFlock

                  Taste and texture.

                  As for the "documentary evidence", yeah nah. Persistent abstract memory, self awareness, reasoned anticipation of future events, and the ability to communicate abstract ideas are all part of a fundamentally different consciousness than biological impulse.

                  We shouldn't be cruel, but to equate a cow with a human is a moral equivalence that lacks any reasonable foundation.

                  • Grey Area

                    Totally disagree so let's leave it there.

                  • Drowsy M. Kram

                    Humans and all other living things must 'consume' nutrients to live. Some humans have an (over-)abundance of dietary choices, and so we have omnivores, vegetarians, vegans et al.

                    The known risks associated with 'veganism by choice' are easily mitigated, hence the paucity of reports of human health being compromised by veganism in the OECD.

                    If human civilisation reverts to a pre-industrial state, then veganism may be a less heathly ‘option’, but at the moment it seems a pretty good OECD option for the health of humans and the planet.

                    Not a choice I could make (yet), because I enjoy eating bacon, chicken, cheese et al. [dribble drool, slaver slobber] It's a delicious habit that is (on balance) bad for my health, and for the planet, but 'from my cold, dead mouth' and all that, although I’m eating less meat than I used to.

                    "Vegetarians should take some solace from the fact that meat consumption is declining in half of the countries listed above. Between 2002 and 2009 the amount consumed by US residents fell from 124.8 kilos per person to 120.2, for example, in Luxembourg from 141.7 to 107.9, in New Zealand from 142.1 to 106.7 [kilos per person per year] and in Denmark (previously the world's biggest consumers of meat) from 145.9kg to 95.2kg."


                    • Andre

                      Jaeeezusss! 106.7 kilos a year? 2 kilos a week? Maybe Psycho Milt is chowing down that roughly 1 1/2 kilos a week I'm not eating.

                    • I seem to be getting through half a kilo a week just in bacon for breakfast, so yeah, probably eating a few people's shares…

            • Psycho Milt

              …which I'm sure the animal doesn't want…

              Plants don't want to be eaten either, Grey Area. Many go to considerable evolutionary efforts to make it harder to eat them, up to and including making themselves toxic to animals. If you want to live without killing things, you'd better learn how to photosynthesise.

              • The Al1en

                A broccopalypse or maybe a caulicaust lol

              • marty mars

                It's funny how the idea of differentiating what one consumes is extrapolated into living without killing things – what's with that?

                  • marty mars

                    for some reason it brings to mind this lyric and song for me

                    We walked out – tentacle in hand
                    You could sense that the earthlings would not understand
                    They'd go.. nudge nudge …when we got off the bus
                    Saying it's extra-terrestial – not like us
                    And it's bad enough with another race
                    But fuck me… a monster …from outer space


                    I spose I see us all as earthlings

                • weka

                  is the issue what one consumes or what dies so that one might live?

                  • marty mars

                    I believe that the ecological cost of mass producing meat is OTT. I think that our western diets are unsustainable. People make their choices to do what they want and they accept their choices – personally I no longer care what anyone else eats – we all make choices. It is a fairness of argument for me re my comment.

                    • The Al1en

                      As a global trade, and the gearing required to bring it together, you're probably correct – Way too high an environmental cost.

                      For a local market only, surely consumption can continue with a much better carbon footprint and improved standards.

                    • Re ethics of argument, Grey Area's argument was that killing animals to eat them is wrong as animals don't want to be killed, so people should eat plants. My counter-argument was that plants also don't want to be killed and it's impossible for humans to live without killing things. In what sense do you consider that counter-argument unfair?

                    • Pat

                      Far more than our western diets is unsustainable….the problem is in providing a viable alternative and the transition…and equitably

                    • marty mars

                      @ Al1en – needs verses wants I suppose

                      @ PM I think when you said, "If you want to live without killing things, you'd better learn how to photosynthesise." was my tipping point. Extrapolating for effect just a little too far for me. So that's why I responded.

                      @ Pat – yeah – I believe the inevitability of the changes will make choice moot down the track – still we can future proof by diversifying while we can and moving to as sustainable as we can be. The dietary lifestyle we enjoy now is pretty decadent and the cost so high imo.

                    • weka

                      I'm similar marty. It's fairness for humans globally, but also fairness for other life forms.

                      The more people eat local the more this will become apparent. So many people don't understand what it takes to grow good food and do that fairly.

                    • Pat

                      Sadly eating locally dosnt solve it…there are too many locations that require imported food and therein lies one of the problems

                    • weka

                      where are you thinking needs imported food?

                    • Pat

                      the uk for one…but if you like we could research the number of locations that are net food importers

                      quick search reveals

                      and none of this accounts for CC…or failed states

                    • @ PM I think when you said, "If you want to live without killing things, you'd better learn how to photosynthesise." was my tipping point.

                      I think it's a reasonable response. Even if you reject the idea that plants object to being killed, is it wrong to kill a chicken so you can eat it but OK to kill a shitload of mice when you turn your combine harvesters loose on the wheat crop? It isn't currently possible for humans to live without killing things.

                    • weka

                      that countries import food doesn't mean they have to or that they can't produce food locally. Local food production is largely a function of the relationship between population, geography and climate. Capitalism doesn't care about that because it has fossil fuels and can import and export food at will.

                    • weka

                      Pat that link appears to be measuring $ not things like calories or nutrients.

                    • Pat

                      @ Psycho Milt

                      Do you also think that natures predators are also undesirable?…we are nothing more than mammals and we are omnivores, are we to be condemned any more than sharks or lions?…or any other species that ends the existence of another life form

                    • we are nothing more than mammals and we are omnivores, are we to be condemned any more than sharks or lions?

                      I wouldn't say "nothing more than," but we for sure are omnivorous primates and that means we have a taste for eating other critters, much like sharks or lions.

                      It's worth keeping in mind that plants are also in evolutionary competition with each other and doing their best to ensure their own survival at the expense of other plant species, same as animals. It just all happens a hell of a lot slower and without all the clawing, biting, bludgeoning etc.

                    • Pat

                      @Weka.lol…didnt you know everything is measured in dollars?….but we can can still infer …and as said that dosnt account for CC nor failed states…which are only going to increase.

                    • Pat

                      @ PM….thats all very well but dosnt address my point.

                    • Sorry, in that case I haven't understood what you were saying. Could you dumb it down for me?

                    • Pat

                      The question was are we to be condemned?….your answer didnt address that….so I shall offer one on your behalf…yes we are, as a result of our success we are destined to out compete everything including our environment.

                    • weka

                      Pat, lol, yes dollars rule. I wondered if one is measuring commodity dollars how useful that is because it will include things like chocolate, coffee and wine.

                      That CC and war are going to force big changes in food production is an argument for shifting to local food production sooner rather than later.

                    • Pat

                      7.8 billion and growing…it aint doable.

                      We are witnessing how humans cope with a resource constrained world….we dont.

                      All of our petty disputes about how we farm etc are symptomatic of a problem that we cannot solve.

                      Long before rising sea levels or non habitable heat undoes us we will will destroy each other

                    • weka

                      Why is it not doable? We know that the end of fossil fuels will make transporting food harder. We know that we need more resilient systems. Both those things are within our reach irrespective of how bad CC gets.

                      Addressing industrial dairying isn't a petty dispute, it's literally about whether humans get to survive in the future, possibly even you and I. Those big, industrial, nature ignoring, FF burning systems are going to crash. How is relocalising food production not a good response to that?

                    • The question was are we to be condemned?

                      … yes we are, as a result of our success we are destined to out compete everything including our environment.

                      It does sure look like having self-awareness and the ability to think in abstracts doesn't outweigh being just an upmarket bunch of omnivore primates when it comes down to it. I'll hold off the condemnations until it's clear whether or not we've played ourselves, though.

                    • Pat

                      Its petty because we are creating unnecessary divisions in a society that has little chance of achieving a positive outcome…and it certainly wont if its divided.

                      The problem is so complicated that the only possible way to address it requires widespread buy in…that is not achieved by attack and demonisation.

                      Societies are too easily fragmented and as said in other posts long before we are seriously challenged by the physical impacts of CC we will have to avoid the societal conflicts (if we can)

              • Grey Area

                Animals are sentient beings and while plants are alive they are not sentient.

                Are you suggesting that boiling a live chicken and a head of broccoli are the same thing?

                • weka

                  How do we know this is true? Science is demonstrating that plants in forests communicate with each other, including by using other species. They tend and protect via this communication as well as repel. Maybe that's not sentience as we understand it, or maybe we're locked into particular ideas about sentience that stop us seeing other kinds.

                  • McFlock

                    It really is an amazing rabbit hole to dive into for a while. It starts to screw with our concepts of "communication" and even what constitutes an "organism" or a "mind", our role in the world and even whether there is a being of "humanity" that is made up of all the interactions of us people. At the root of it all is the conundrum of the observer who sits behind our eyes and other sensory organs.

                    • John Varley's "The Ophiuchi Hotline" has a plotline in which aliens discover the Earth and identify Homo Sapiens not as a fellow sentient species but as a cancerous growth and eradicate it, leaving the occupants of a base on the moon as the last humans. In the novel, the aliens consider whales and dolphins to be Earth's sentient life forms (perhaps reflecting the fact it was written in the 1970s), but it would be equally plausible that they'd consider plants the sentient life forms, given that aliens could be evolved from any kind of life.

                    • McFlock

                      Or even the earth itself as a life form, and our destruction of biodiversity (and ther biological interactions therein) as a literal brain cancer.

                    • weka

                      McFLock at 8.18pm.

                      I know. I love it. It really stretches my mind. I find myself going 'that can't be right', then going 'well yeah, it could be'. In the end my position is that there are plenty of good reasons to err on the side of caution and not be cruel to anything unnecessarily. We don't have to know for sure if forests are sentient to decide that cutting one down is something serious.

                      I feel sorry for humans sometimes with our big brains trying to figure out how to be with our particular capacity for perception.

                • I'm suggesting that living things don't want to be killed, but we don't have much choice about killing them if we want to remain alive ourselves and that applies to eating plants as much as it does to eating animals. If you personally want to designate "has a central nervous system" as a threshold beyond which you won't kill to eat, by all means act on it and eat accordingly. But that designation is as arbitrary as anyone else's.

                • Grey Area

                  No-one answered my question. You reacted but you didn't respond. Bit like plants actually.

                  • Grey Area

                    And in reply to Pyscho Milt upstream (as I don't see a reply button) aboiut mice being killed by a combine harvester Earthling Ed would ask: "Morally, is there a difference between accidentally hitting a dog with your car and purposefully hitting a dog with your car?”. If you say yes, "then by that logic is there morally a difference between an animal accidentally being killed in crop production and an animal purposefully being killed in a slaughterhouse?”.

                    • If it were impossible to drive your car without accidentally hitting a bunch of dogs on your way to your destination, I expect many of us would be put off driving. People give less of a shit about mice and other field critters, on the out-of-sight-out-of-mind principle.

                • I didn't answer your question, no. The question was essentially a reframing of McFlock's comment further up:

                  We shouldn't be cruel, but to equate a cow with a human is a moral equivalence that lacks any reasonable foundation.

                  You've swapped out "cow/human" with "broccoli/chicken" but are making essentially the same argument. I notice that your response to that argument from McFlock was "Totally disagree but let's leave it there." Given that response, why do you assume we'd answer your question?

                  • Grey Area

                    I wasn't assuming anything. I was busy at work and didn't have the time to challenge the statement that I don't accept. I happened to see some activity around the issue and decided to re-enter the fray.

                    And anyway that was in response to him this afternoon not you this evening.

                    • McFlock

                      Seeing as you have a bit more time, then. My shorthand on the issue for a while now has been "could [animal X] write an essay entitled what I did on my holidays?"

                      Some mammals and cephalopodes probably could, given the right communication interface. Not all of them, though.

                      Cows and sheep, I doubt it. And if they can't, even if there's a type of impulse-driven or momentary sentience, it wouldn't exist without farming. If we can give them a reasonably happy life and end it without their anticipation or pain, by several methods of moral accounting (utilitarianism or whatever) I'm not seeing a net negative.

                      Contrast with slavery, or cannibalism of captive humans. Lots of negatives and suffering for a simple meal or delaying mechanisation.

                      I mean, theoretically the math might add up, but Kevin would have to make a lots-better-than-Michelin dinner for that to happen. 🙂

                    • Grey Area []

                      My shorthand position is that killing other sentient beings to use them as a food source is immoral, cruel and for those of us in the "West" unnecessary.

                      I see cows, pigs, sheep, etc as someone, not something. Especially not something for us to use.

                      They are creatures often with personalities and intelligence and with a capacity to feel emotions like we do.

                      Humans seem to have such huge capacity to f*ck things up. We use and abuse everything around us and the climate crisis we are in the middle of is mostly the result of that.

                      So taking off my vegan hat and putting on my climate change one, animal agriculture is a major contributor to greenhouse gas emissions and if we are to have any chance of at least slowing climate collapse animal agriculture needs to be hugely reduced and better still eliminated.

                      We can't afford it anymore.

                    • McFlock

                      I see cows, pigs, sheep, etc as someone, not something.

                      And if I shared that perspective, I'd probably agree. Or eat people. But I've been around livestock of various types, and didn't see the same spark of humanity that you did.

                      As for climate change, the main event will always be fossil fuels. Substitutiopn is necessary, and if it's not sufficient then global vegetarianism probably won't be, either.

                      So limit meat intake in the same way we stop using plastic straws – it might encourage people more powerful than us to address the elephant.

                  • marty mars

                    yes the line is arbitrary – because you can live within the choices – so the question is then, what are the factors driving the choices – that is where the morals get really interesting

                    • weka

                      what are your drivers?

                    • marty mars

                      the footprint of the choice is important

                      buying local is important

                      fairness is another driver – I'm anti capitalism and exploitation

                      truth also is when I became a vegetarian 39 years ago it was because I couldn't handle the suffering inflicted on the animals – I suppose my species boundary and what falls out of that, is different to science and normal western thought.

                    • McFlock

                      I don't think it's all that different. Vegetarianism is hardly rare in the West, or amongst scientists.

                      It's a line that is philosophical, spiritual, logical, emotional, practical… everyone draws it in their own place. I'm not sure anyone is in a place to judge anyone else's placement of that line – just whether they're being dicks about it 🙂

                    • marty mars

                      Yep I spose the reals dicks will be the meat eaters who chose to not reduce their meat especially when reports like the one below come out. The vegans are the good guys although shrill and annoying.

                      “We don’t want to tell people what to eat,” says Hans-Otto Pörtner, an ecologist who co-chairs the IPCC’s working group on impacts, adaptation and vulnerability. “But it would indeed be beneficial, for both climate and human health, if people in many rich countries consumed less meat, and if politics would create appropriate incentives to that effect.”


                      That's quite nice framing by Hans-Otto Pörtner I think

                    • McFlock


                      Thinking more of the monomaniacs, but each to their own

                    • weka

                      "the footprint of the choice is important

                      buying local is important

                      fairness is another driver – I'm anti capitalism and exploitation"

                      Pretty much mine too. Interesting we come to different conclusions about what that means.

                      "truth also is when I became a vegetarian 39 years ago it was because I couldn't handle the suffering inflicted on the animals – I suppose my species boundary and what falls out of that, is different to science and normal western thought."

                      I was vegetarian around the same time. I don't think being vegetarian is at odds with western thought especially in a country like NZ where lots of people care about animals. I do think we are behind in the science though and that care for the wellbeing of ecosystems as a right (rather than just how they serve humans) is going to become more mainstream off the back of the leading edge science.

      • Psycho Milt 3.2.3

        i find lab 'grown' as gross as the practices of industrial dairy farming.

        One of the TV news's had an item last night on an Aus company that's just grown kangaroo meat in a lab – story here.

        It was pitched as being a way for billions of humans to have a meat diet without affecting the environment (bullshit detector going off big-time at that point). The process takes stem cells from kangaroo meat, puts them in a "nutrient-rich solution" and waits for the stem cells to make kangaroo meat out of the solution.

        So, if billions of people are going to eat this stuff, that's shit-tonnes of "nutrient-rich solution" that has to turn up from somewhere – industrial farming, I hear you say? Surely not…

        My wife's only comment: "Wouldn't you cut out the middle-man and just eat the "nutrient-rich solution?”

        • McFlock

          Hmmm. Matrix comes to mind, where steak was an example of why cypher(?) wanted to live in the machine rather than eat the protein gruel in the "real world".

          I guess they won't have kangaroo stem cells in the future…

        • greywarshark

          Mixed with alcohol that would make a great breakfast for those who want to forget, even before the day has produced the unforgettables.

          • Psycho Milt

            Would also see off all those boring "Make sure you eat food when you're drinking, never drink alcohol on an empty stomach, etc" messages. Two birds with one stone…

        • Andre

          Yeah it'll take a lot of nutrient-rich solution. But most of that nutrient goes into growing the flesh cells we end up eating, rather than most of it going into just keeping a hulking great host alive and walking around and only a tiny bit goes into muscle growth in a live animal. So growing the nutrient feedstock should require a lot less space and inputs than growing all the vegetable matter a live animal needs to produce the same amount of edible "flesh".

          Then there's the matter of eliminating the methane emissions from live ruminants. Although roos aren’t ruminants and are pretty low emission critters.

          Personally I'll probably be quite happy with just a moderately realistic facsimile of mince for burgers, sausages, salami, spag bol etc. But bacon is going to have to be fkn convincing before the pigs are out of trouble.

          • Psycho Milt

            Yes, it would certainly make way more sense than growing crops to feed to livestock – but that has to be the stupidest form of agriculture ever invented.

            I guess it just irks me that people talk about replacing meat with plant-based alternatives (which is presumably where this nutrient solution comes from – I sure as shit hope they're not getting it by grinding up sea critters) as though creating industrial-scale crop monocultures were some kind of improvement on grazing livestock. If it is an improvement, the improvement's marginal at best.

            • Andre

              To a large extent, the potential for improvement comes from eliminating the methane emissions and effluent problems of live animals.

              But cows and sheep are also incredible inefficient at turning the calories and protein they're fed into calories and protein available to humans eating them. Around 1% conversion efficiency for calories and maybe 4% for protein. Pork and poultry do a lot better, around 10% for calories and 15 to 20% for protein (as well as emitting a lot less methane).

              If vats didn't do a whole lot better, say at least 30% conversion efficiency, then yeah you'd question the point. But since cells in a vat only have to grow, and not sustain a whole bunch of other metabolic processes, the potential has to be there.

              As for where the feed comes from, yeah, ground sea critters would be disastrous. But seaweed could be interesting.

              Then there's the whole question around the merits of grazing animals in hilly ground not suitable for cropping. Dunno, maybe if the cell vats become a reality, hill country will be where the boutique "real meat" gets produced.

              It's fkn hard finding hard info that isn't obviously pushing some sort of barrow. But the numbers presented in these two pieces are about what seems to be the consensus of stuff I've seen elsewhere.



  4. Ad 4

    Fonterra posts another massive loss at $-675 million

    And more to come next year.

    Do we have anyone in this government who can forcefully represent the whole interests of New Zealand to Fonterra?

    This is not a business we can let die.

    • Andre 4.1

      If the vat-grown whey and casein efforts linked above actually come to fruition, what's going to happen to Fonterra?

      I'm guessing the commodity milk-powder business – gone. Commodity cheese for pizzas and burgers – gone. What will be left? Boutique products where the customers will really want to believe they come from happy cows lovingly tended to in green grassy pastures. And that business is extremely vulnerable to the kind of shit highlighted today by weka and lprent.

      • Dukeofurl 4.1.1

        Commodity milk powder exists because milk cant be stored in its natural form and milk powder can. Cows are milked everyday and the fresh milk has to be processed the following day

        The commodity milk powder provides the dairy products for 30 mill people outside NZ for all sorts of reasons.

        Just a note about Fonterras loss , they are just book keeping writedowns of assets.
        Its not a cash loss as they are awash in it , like the paddocks the cows are stuck in over winter

        • greywarshark

          Perhaps you are demonstrating to us that we are alike the cows in that we are awash with money in this country but stuck up to our knees in debt incurred as we just try to get regular food and find a place to lie down.

        • David Mac

          If my life was wrapped up in Fonterra I think the aspect worthy of attention in the info is the amount of the write down that relates to market share erosion. Start-ups doing it better than NZ's biggest company.

          The rise of domestic competition and abroad.

          We don't hold many picture cards. That's one of them, we should be leading the world in the milk fields. If Fonterra were the All Blacks, they couldn't beat Mount Albert Grammar.

          Great big Brontosaurus that can barely get out of it's own way. So many desks and so few udders. Subsidiaries struggling in prospering centres around the globe.

          We should be brilliant at this. We're not even average.

          • David Mac

            I paid a premium for cheese in Sweden, about 50% more than here. I visited a Swedish dairy farm. For half the year each cow is hand fed in it's own stall in a heated barn. They had their names on their stall doors.

            We don't know how lucky we are. We should be creaming it.

            • David Mac

              The Swedes are cunning socialists. I think it's because they spend 4 months of the year sitting around fires in the freezing dark slamming shots of rocket fuel, sharing their hearts, dreams and Spring plans.

              Dairy farmers felt the winter pinch. Many crop farmers face 5 months of a permafrozen farm. They found a solution that works for everybody. It's easy to push a log around on ice, farmers drop trees, trim them, spray their code on the end and leave them beside the road. The co-op truck with a Hiab grapple stopped at the end of the drive, loaded the logs up and took them to the co-op owned processing plant.

              Crop farmers on Graso were as concerned about growing Pines as they were corn.

    • cleangreen 4.2


      we are worried about this as it seems that the Chinese are unndermining Fonterra so the share price fall will give them the soluution to buy Fonterra as a luididated bussiness asset.

      China are playing us to take over our entire farming industry.

      • Dukeofurl 4.2.1

        Write down in investments in Australia, Venezuela and Brazil as well as the sell off of Tip Top in NZ . So not just China.

        Fonterra is a strange mix of being a Coop and a shareholding company – almost entirely in shares only dairy farmers can own.

        The Coop side doesnt make a profit and returns all its earnings to farmers through the milk price.

        Normally the payments to farmers each would be 90% or more milk price and the rest 'share dividend'

        Maybe someone can look at the accounts in detail and see what share of revenue is Fonterra Coop and how much is Fonterra Ltd

      • Gabby 4.2.2

        That's the kind of joint venture they can get behind, where they take over the joint.

    • Blazer 4.3

      Well Fonterra should learn the lesson=$8,000,000 p.annum is NOT the going rate for TALENT!

  5. greywarshark 5

    Earthquakes – just looking. One felt locally, a little jolt.


    Three weeks ago – more than 24 weak or light

    Two weeks ago – 19 w or l.

    Today – 5.2 at Mot is regarded as a light earthquake.

    6 in last 24 hours.

    I noticed south of Snares Island, south of NZ mentioned; I hadn't noticed before.

    4th and 5th August 5.6 and 6.3 south of Snares

    29 July 4.6 south of Snares

    27 July 4.5 "

    18 July 5.1 "

    18 July 4.6 "

    17 July 4.7 "

    I noticed that Seddon was continuing in the listings.

    • cleangreen 5.1

      smiley Earthquakes are worrying me too as napier had some too recently and we wonder if this is .could be the heating of the 'earth's crust; – and the tectonic plates? https://www.the-science-site.com/crustal-plates.html

      • Dukeofurl 5.1.1

        Napier had some recently ?

        have you just moved there as they are very regular events, like all the other towns along the east coast.

        maybe you should have moved to Northland where they are infrequent compared to Napier

        • cleangreen

          Nah Dukeofurl.

          I am mostly in the hills above Gisbrone near BOP border, and was born in Auckland in 1944 and raised in Napier 1951 to 1964, didn't you read my posts on the Fox river debarkle?

          All us 'Napierites' have very keen knowledge of when the usual swarms of earthquakes do occur with annual frequencies.

          This time last week when we were there, it was very odd when the earthquake hit us.

          It was at a time when we don't usually expeirience 'swams' of quakes' so that is our concern.

          Thanks for your concern.

          Shit if I wanted to move from earthquakes I would;

          go back to Canada

          or my last home Florida

          as they don’t have earthquakes,

          But Canada's weather is shit

          Florida has hurricanes.

          So I am good at present above the pollution, noise, and truck gridlock, here in the hinterland of rural NZ hill country.

          Bloody new lambs wake me up though now.

    • Poission 5.2

      The Motueka eq was within the forecast parameters ie a 99% probability of a m5-m5.9.within 12 months of the forecast.


      • greywarshark 5.2.1

        Well we won't be putting the forecasters in prison like the Italians did then?

        • cleangreen


        • Alice Tectonite

          Should've locked up the politicians etc behind that decision.

          Ignorant #$%^&*! with no understanding of science & its uncertainties seeking to deflect from there own failings…

      • cleangreen 5.2.2


        That reminds me of the promises made when big tobacco excecs were all linned up in front of a congressonal inquiry promising that smokng was safe???

        According to the National Research Council, no toxicity data are available for over 39,000 commercially available used chemicals.
        And this also;

        Approximately 80 million people or three out of every 10, in the United States can expect to contract some form of cancer in their lifetime. The National Cancer Institute has estimated in at least one communique’ that at least 98% of all cancers may be linked to chemical exposures,
        According to Lynn Montandon, founder of the Response team for the chemically injured.

        Until recently, the Federal Government has concentrated most of its resources on researching cancer and the effects of acute chemical exposures, paying very little attention to the effects of long term low level chemical exposures, or to the neurological, reproductive, developmental, or immunological effects that chemicals may cause. The government is just beginning to look into these non-cancer health risks and the existing research into these other health matters is, on the whole, inadequate and non-existent.

      • Alice Tectonite 5.2.3

        I understand that deep earthquakes in the subducting Pacific Plate such as this one are outside the forecast area which applies only to the (relatively) near surface – approximately to top 20 to 30 km.

    • Alice Tectonite 5.3

      The Snares earthquakes are associated with the Puysegur Trench subduction zone where the Australian Plate is descending below the Pacific Plate.

      Seddon earhtquakes are likely continuing aftershocks of the 2013 Grassmere quake and/or 2016 Kaikoura quake (several faults in the Cape Campbell area ruptured at the surface in the Kaikoura quake).

      Given there are ~20,000 record quakes per year in NZ, its not unusual to have several in a week that are felt to some degree.

      If you're interested in where the known acitve faults (on land) are, check out GNS's active faults map: http://data.gns.cri.nz/af

  6. soddenleaf 6

    Capitalism finally weaponizes ignorance, and being ignorance, shoots itself. Media moguls setting up fast tracking promedia nra, cc, and now the trifecta, tv personality president, have they no sense. Why are Act members always turning up on tv? first they attacked Greens for not getting into bed with big polluters, now Greens are power starved like 6% down from 10% was a means to demand more. Now I get that we do need balance in tv but just right-wing talking heads, and disgruntaled former Greens, really, is that all they dan find. Seems to me when the ecology, climate, resource limits are hit, or whatever, the media will be the culprits.

  7. mosa 7

    The SFO clears Thompson and Clark.

    Somehow i knew they would.

    Now up next the SFO and the investigation into the National parties donation scandal.


    • greywarshark 7.1

      Sounds like a good mystery tv series – what was the one with Gillian Anderson in it? Like that. We can put everything on tv like a real Reality Show. Sit and watch things like on The Truman Show. Tonight we are going to have a prison break – who will get away and who will be shot?

      The SFO can be dressed like Sherlock Holmes with really giant magnifying glasses and computer nerds tracing people on grids all round town with Tumpson and Clerk giving directions. The miscreants would have the choice of being in the show, or going to Court and paying their own legal fees whether they are found guilty or not.

  8. Muttonbird 8

    Lol. Steven Molyneuax equates lipstick to an erection and channels his compatriot and stablemate Jordan Petersen's virulent hatred of women.


    Women had fun in the Twitter comments!

    • Peter Christchurh NZ 8.1

      I can't wait for his next post, probably wanting to ban women licking icecream in the workplace.

      And if, in some insane universe that he inhabits, he is actually right, what does that tell us about women wearing black or purple lipstick? I shudder at his possible explanation!

      [Different e-mail address?]

    • Dukeofurl 9.1

      "In the government’s first major piece of legislation mapping out post-EU policy, Environment and Food Secretary Michael Gove is set to present sweeping changes Wednesday to the agriculture sector. Gove's plan will phase out the EU’s sacrosanct direct payment scheme under the Common Agricultural Policy (CAP), which props up farmers' wages based on the amount of land they own, and instead link farmers' payments to environmental standards.

      Isnt that a good thing ?


      Its a common fallacy that most of the things the EU does are somehow fine and dandy
      Theres opportunity under a new Fisheries policy after Brexit to make well overdue changes as well

    • Gabby 9.2

      Hey, the screaming skull is smashing the system from inside! Fight the paua!

  9. marty mars 10

    Important in so many ways

    A new ruling on the ban on prisoner voting delivers a fierce reminder of the need for urgent change. Now it’s over to the government: put up or shut up, writes Andrew Geddis.

    In some ways, it tells us nothing we didn’t already know: the legislative ban on prisoners voting enacted in 2010 by National and Act Party MPs is a terrible law that shouldn’t ever have been passed. But in laying out how poorly conceived this law was and just how negatively it affects Māori in particular, He Aha Perā Ai? The Māori Prisoners’ Voting Report, which has just been released by the Waitangi Tribunal, presents us with a fierce reminder of the need for change.

    So, let’s recap where we are. In the near-decade since its passage, the legislation banning prisoner voting has been called “constitutionally outrageous” by a High Court judge, formally declared to be inconsistent with the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act by the Supreme Court, and now held to be in breach of Treaty principles by the Waitangi Tribunal. And that’s without considering what less impressive people like mere legal academics have said about it.

    The law has the formal effect of barring thousands of New Zealanders (disproportionately Māori) from voting at each election, and the practical effect of knocking hundreds from the electoral roll, which they then are highly unlikely to rejoin in the future…



  10. joe90 11

    With Diana and Unity, too.

  11. Poission 12

    Australian snow event has local bouncing for joy.

  12. cleangreen 13

    Giving the prisoners the vote eh?

    Well if the criminals’ and con-artists that run Corporations are found guilty and not jailed for ’embezlement, cheating, extortion and other offences under (the list below; – some exeptions as it is a US list); then are still allowed to vote, why should we ban any prisoners from voting?

    [Deleted long list that was straight from the link provided. Remember that some people read TS on their phone and have to scroll through – Incognito]

  13. Kevin 15

    Wage theft and the hospitality industry. I think it goes much deeper than that and is across many industries, especially those employing low skilled labour and migrant labour.


  14. greywarshark 16


    The Minister for Regional Economic Development has launched a stinging attack on urban liberals, accusing them of trying to take the fishing industry down….

    He said the attacks came from people who did not always understand what was at stake, and the industry had to fight back to protect itself.

    Mr Jones said it was not just the fishing industry that was threatened, Māori who had invested much of their economic heritage in the business were threatened too.

    "Those of us such as me as a Māori, who have our legacy interests via the treaty in the fishing industry, need to gird our loins and protect ourselves," Mr Jones said.

    "Rest assured, there is a largely metropolitan-based power culture, which seeks to do damage to our industry."

    Mr Jones said this was a very serious problem to people who had stored their full and final wealth from Treaty settlements in this industry.

    Can Shane Jones walk and chew calamari at the same time?

    • Dukeofurl 16.1

      Thats Jones being the glove puppet Sooty. With all those big donors expecting fighting talk…and they got it.

    • Stuart Munro. 16.2

      That'd be the same Jones who took Sealord from being NZ's biggest seafood company to no. three or four? Not an expert on fishing by any stretch of the imagination – just a parachutist.

  15. R.P Mcmurphy 17

    had to larf at Neal Jones dealing to the nationals party squealer Mathew Hooton on 9-noon this morning.

    Jones had Hooton on the back foot right from the start and the more he got backed into a corner the more hooton squealed as all his right wing memes and tropes came flying out of his gob unbidden to show the real hooton. not nice.

  16. greywarshark 18

    Indonesia has interesting history.https://asiapacificreport.nz/2019/08/09/the-bloody-1965-66-slaughter-behind-indonesias-mass-killings-secrecy/

    A report from link picked up from TDB about Indonesia with help from USA JK and Australia (NZ?) and the killing of up to million people, and imprisonment of about million, of 9 August 2019,


  17. Grey Area 19

    Can someone please explain why I see a Reply button on most but not all posts? I've tried three different browsers and get the same result. On my Android mobile I seem to see reply on every post.

  18. Eco maori 20

    Kia Ora The Am Show.

    Tamki Makaru had a couple of tawhirimate nights

    Its great to see more attention for OUR Mokopuna future environment but to have a clean environment one needs to clean up poverty aswell no use having a clean environment in one hand and thousands living under the bridge. national made a big mess of our environment and caused a housing short in Aotearoa in 9 years I have see miles of forest turned into Dairy Farm in the central North Island that is not good for the environment. All prosecution for effluent entering our waterways stop .To many things national did negatively to our environment to itemize

    . Its great to see alot of Tangata Whenua challenging local council elections post in Hawksbay kia kaha times are changing it happening all around the Motu.

    That was a huge beautiful crocodile on the roof of a house during the India monsoon floods great picture.

    That is a great phenomenon getting thousands more to give blood awesome Sir Henry

    Great To see a shopping mall Goldsmith in America doing things to save our mokopuna future environment.

    Nothing wrong with being nice some people think Im weak because I nice .?????.

    Great to see the Eco Maori affect is still getting reka .

    Ka kite ano

  19. Eco maori 21

    Ka pai to the Wahine who wrote this story and Kia kaha to the Students Strikes to champion a clean environment for their mokopuna grandchildren .

    We will be striking again for climate change

    OPINION: Students are taking to the streets, beaches and parks on 27 September, and we're inviting everyone to join us. That's right, this is an intergenerational issue, and you're all invited to put pressure on politicians worldwide to pass bills which will take action to reduce the impacts of climate change.

    I know, you're probably thinking "again, really?" and so are we. You'd think millions of people marching, rallying, lobbying, protesting and even a couple climbing buildings would be enough to get governments worldwide to actually treat this issue as a crisis, but apparently it's not. So we're going again

    We want our government and governments worldwide to do everything in their power to limit global warming to 1.5 degrees Celsius by ending the use of fossil fuels and investing in a regenerative and renewable economy. Additionally, we are asking the government to acknowledge the severity of climate change and declare a climate emergency.

    On 24 May, we walked out of school alongside hundreds of thousands of students around the globe. We won't sit and watch our futures disintegrate, and we invite you to join us to strengthen our movement. That's you, reading this column; that's the next person you talk to; that's the waiter who gives you your coffee and the woman sitting in front of you in the car/bus/train, it really is everyone

    Climate change isn't just a youth problem, even though it'll hit us the hardest. It's everyone's problem. Everyone has a responsibility to act, in both practical ways and through joining the strike movement on 27 September.

    If you have a child, niece, nephew or young person you care about, it's your problem. Do you think they look into their future and imagine travelling to various islands and cities, bays and beaches? Or do they wonder if the sea will have swallowed them by the time they're your age ka kite ano link below.


  20. Eco maori 22

    Some Eco Maori music for the minute.

  21. Eco maori 23

    Some Eco Maori music for the minute.

  22. Eco maori 24

    Kia Ora Newshub.

    A avalanche at Mount Cook lets hope that the 5 people caught in the avalanche are all good.

    A tornado hit the water front in Tamaki Makau flipping 30 ton yachts tawhirimate is a powerful entity.

    Mike the Pigeon Valley fire was huge you say it started by a farmer plowing his paddock with heavy disks which created sparks.

    The People of Papatuanuku need to combat climate change to help our Pacific Island cousins it is their biggest threat to a happy healthy future.

    The New Zealand Airforce needs to have the equipment to patrol the Pacific Ocean we have a huge Tangata area to patrol the new Aircraft being delivered in 2023 is needed to protect our fisheries and tangata who end up in strife in Tangaroa.

    Ka kite ano

  23. Eco maori 25

    Kia Ora Te Ao Maori News.

    I do think that the commercial mussels spat catches need to respect the environment that they catch their spat from they should have vehicles that have tyers that spread their load to save our tuatua . This is how the neanderthal capitalist work they thrash a resource till it collapses this happened to tuatua wet fish fisheries I also have great concern about the Manuka honey industry on the East Coast there are hives everywhere on the coast they wonder why they have had 2 to 3 bad seasons it because they are over exploiting the resource.

    Awesome that the Coalition Government is investing to fixing Rotoruas museum there would be some great taonga in their care to display to the public.

    In Porirua the state housing they pull down functional whare to cramm flash new housing any intelligent person will know that the rents will go up too cover the cost of the building of the whare capitalism ways are most salespeople tell you what you want to here .

    Lyndon PEE is a powerful poison that takes control of the user who can be manipulated to do just about anything we need more advertising to educate te tangata about the crap it great that this program is happening in Te Taiwhiti the crap is making a big mess up there.

    A lot of people don't understand that A warm whare is a healthy whare Eco Maori say a education program needs to be run about the effects of a cold damp whare has on te tamariki respiratory system it's not good Eco Maori always has a warm WHARE.

    Ka kite Ano.

  24. [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]

  25. Well, all kudos to those in South Auckland… they've done their people proud,… pacifist, benevolent and upholding their culture.

    They've conducted themselves well. Faultless.

    There's hope yet.

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]

  26. Eco maori 28

    Kia Ora The Am Show.

    The statistic mess is from simons time in Parliament along with many others kia ora.

    The Australian idiot who stabbed people they are being empowered by people who use hate to gain power.

    People who go to WAR often suffer mental trauma .The Pilots whos autobiography book that the Wahine was describing him being cold in nature no hugging ect.

    I see all the moves that you try to manipulate me just wasting your time and money.

    You would think that a organization like Cambridge Analytical would use the data they harvest off the internet would be used for good purposes like governments planning for the future .

    You know its ridiculous that humanity has not learnt by its mistakes we discovered a resource and exploit it till it collapses or nearly collapses thrown our arms in the AIR and make all the excuses in the Papatuanuku to push the blame to others as to WHY the resources collapse. I have seen it with fishing farming Honey many other valuable species and resources are over exploiting by humanity. What should happen is when a resource is discovered the planing should be put in place to harvest it sustainably from the START not the AMBULANCES at the bottom of the hill that we have going down at the MINUTE. You see we might be still catching fishes but the amount of diesel burned to catch te ika will have gone up 50 % from 30 years ago the fishermen wanted to have horses power limits to control the fisherys instead of the quota system that would have limited the catch effort on the fishery you see it is basically horse power that catches fish .The fishermen would be able to buy and sell the right to the use of horses power to catch fish that system would have limited the pressure on our fisheries to what it was 30 years ago.

    But the corrupted money men got their way and a dump ass Quoter system was implemented that can be exploited very easily by the crooked MAN big fail Aotearoa Quoter management system .

    Ka kite ano

  27. Eco maori 29

    Some Eco Maori Music for the minute.

  28. Eco maori 30

    Kia Ora Newshub.

    I say a national statement to protect our precious whenua that produces our food from housing development good on you David Te Atua is not making anymore.

    That is the way people with power have to be held accountable for their abuse of power and abuseing people The opera singer Placido Domingo.

    That shows that Aotearoa was a land of the giants with another discovery of a giant penguin in Aotearoa .

    A nuclear accident in Russia we should not be wasting precious resources on weapons of mass destruction but I get it yin yan it's about the balance of power.

    Ka kite ano

  29. Eco maori 31

    Kia Ora Te Ao Maori News.

    Good Idea having a online petition to get Jacinda to visit Ihumatao I think it's about time Tangata Whenua O Aotearoa got a win

    I don't think that there should be a problem in The Tauranga whenua Waitangi treaty settlement's Its a fact that Tangata Whenua O Aotearoa lost millions of hectares of whenua.

    I am sure that the mussel spat harvester are just chasing the $$$$$$$ without considering the effects that there actions have on the environment I know someone who is in that industry.

    I think it's good that our Armed personnel the Army and Navy are covered by Accident Compensation Corporation who paid for their accidents before the Army and Navy that is stupid they are KIWIs that is the reason why we have some ex personnel not getting the correct help they needed.

    Kia Ora to the Tangata Whenua O Aotearoa living in Australia awesome that you are keeping our culture going strong in Australia Te manawa ora teaching te raku ka pai I know those whanau names We need to keep our cultural pumping and pass it on to our mokopuna in a stronger state that is one of my main goals .ka pai to Jess in Uawa winning the Great Ideas for life Awesome Ideas Mana Wahine

    Ka kite ano

  30. Eco maori 32

    Kia Ora The Am Show.

    Lets hope that they come up with smart simple solutions in the Pacific Island form Government meeting in Tuvalu to help them survive prosperously on their own whenua that means coming up with solutions for them to create their own wealth to teach a person to ika is better than giving the person a ika

    Its called showing respect for our biggest tradeing partner that is what Jacinda is doing she not stupid. But Eca Maori wants Australia to be committed to slow down and stop their use of COAL.

    The tide has changed on Global warming sea level rising human caused climate change. Russell the Bird shoe man gave a excellent opinion. Once Business Figure Out that the Green Industry is the next big Gold rush The changes we need to make as a society will speed up real fast thats part of capitalism The tipping point is just around the corner but WHANAU don’t let up keep championing for a Clean Green Environment for Our Mokopuna. Yes Australia needs to do more once they figure out that a bet on Carbon is a losing bet. The Green Energy Revolution has Started they will be rushing to catch up to Aotearoa we need to embrace 5 G technology to help generate a Clean Green society.

    Pukana man is doing great in Cricket its was great that Aotearoa Cricket and Pukana man managed to sort out their differences and keep him playing for us Mark.

    I think it's stupid that the prison system is giving that Idiot more publicity trying to get a new law that will take rights away from all the other prisoners when they have laws to control the Christchurch idiots communications this stuff up is just giving him more publicity.

    If you want to be treated respectfully one must do the same it's not rocket science Newshub.

    Herbs Song For Freedom movie gets Nation Wide Release Today I will go and watch the movie. Music is great for the Wairua I have to set me up a 12 volt radio system. Those dawn raids of the past in Papatuanuku was a politican trying to use HATE to gain votes he didn't care about the lives he ruined Ilolahia ka pai great name Herbs original manager.

    Ka kite ano

  31. Eco maori 33

    Kia kaha Greta we all know whom is a puppet in Reality keep up your great mahi championing a clean healthy environment for our next generation

    Greta Thunberg sets sail for New York on zero-carbon yacht

    Climate activist begins voyage from Plymouth to Trump’s US with father and two-man crew

    On white-crested swells under leaden skies, the teenage climate activist Greta Thunberg has set sail from Plymouth on arguably her most daunting challenge yet.

    A two-week crossing of the Atlantic during hurricane season in a solar-powered yacht is the first obstacle, but it is unlikely to be the toughest in an odyssey through the Americas over many months

    This will be both the ultimate gap year and a journey into the heart of climate darkness: first to the United States of president Donald Trump, who has promised to pull out of the Paris climate agreement, and then down to South America, possibly including Brazil where president Jair Bolsonaro is overseeing a surge of Amazon deforestation.

    In between, the 16-year-old Swede will add her increasingly influential voice to appeals for deeper emissions cuts at two crucial global gatherings: the Climate Action Summit in New York on 23 September and the the UN climate conference in Santiago in early December.

    The reception awaiting her on the other side is likely to be mixed, with the climate issue a polarising point in US politics

    In a taste of the hostility that is likely to come from supporters of the fossil fuel industry, Steve Milloy, a Fox News contributor and former member of the Trump transition team, described Thunberg on Twitter earlier this week as “the ignorant teenage climate puppet

    Ka kite ano link below.


  32. Robert Guyton 34

    oops – old OM

  33. Eco maori 35

    Kia Ora Newshub.

    The Minister has apologized to the Papatuanuku because some of the prison staff drop the ball and let this idiot post inappropriate letters. The Prison Director should resign anyone with a brain will know that any letters that he writes and gets to post could gain publicity I agree prison guards are corrupt.

    trump playing the bully with the might of the USA behind him is a cause for concern the stock market dropping.

    Its great that our government has stepped in to clean up another national mess The Christchurch earthquake shambles repairs giving the people money to fix the shoddy repairs made when national was in government so there whare can pass a inspection to get insurance.

    Allan Jones is just a neanderthal he is trying to boost his ratings making statements like that he should retired and let someone from the next generation have his mic ma te wa he probably has a lump of coal under his bed.

    Ka kite ano.

  34. Eco maori 36

    Kia Ora Te Ao Maori News.

    Ka pai to the Pee that was seized in Vags

    The Casson Whanau its hard to figure out and find people who you can trust there are people who are just hustlers and don't care about the damage they do to others whanau.

    That's wise The Provenance Growth Fund investing in giving tangata whenua Technology skills that is the low carbon industry that could quite easily beat the dairy industry in export income.

    Its cool to see the hearing impaired getting taught tangata whenua O Aotearoa te reo and cultural awesome.

    Ka kite ano my device cursor starts jumping all over the place when I write too Te Ao Maori News the sandflys are trying to stop me posting to Maori TV

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