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Open mike 16/04/2013

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, April 16th, 2013 - 274 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post. For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the link to Policy in the banner).

Step right up to the mike…

274 comments on “Open mike 16/04/2013 ”

  1. Jenny 1

    The giant Feed The Kids Breakfast is being organised for tomorrow Wednesday, 17th April, at Ngati Otara Park, Otara from 9am:

    Volunteers are needed for this important political event today.

    If You can help today, Tuesday 16th April making the lunches. Be at the Hillary Collegiate, Franklyne Road, Otara from 5pm to 7pm.

    Tomorrow, become an organiser. From 7am to 11am help organise the breakfast at Ngati Otara Park, Franklyne Road, Otara.

    We need lots more people to help feed the kids. Labour, National, Greens, NZ First, United Future, all other groups. Be there or be square.

  2. felix 2

    Haven’t turned on the radio yet this morning.

    I presume Shearer has been all over the news, roundly condemning John Key for terrorising kiwis with his bullshit stories and challenging him to put up or shut up.

    Or maybe not.

    • halfcrown 2.1

      “Or maybe not.”

      You’ve got it in one pal.

    • karol 2.2

      It’s there. But it’s pretty much – we need a full inquiry first. And he and Key have been gazumped by the explosions at the finish line of the Boston Marathon.

      Awful of course. And extensive injuries, deaths.

      But if Key tries to link it to NZ fantasy WMDs, Laila Harre happened to be running in the marathon and should get some air time.

      • Colonial Viper 2.2.1

        Holy frak. I hadn’t heard that had happened.

        • Pascal's bookie

          Pete George is the first (I think) to explicitly say that Boston needs to be part of the GCSB debate. Apparently he only just realised that terrorists exist or something.

      • Populuxe1 2.2.2

        Are you really that ignorant about NZ’s technology companies, particularly electronics and software? Are you really that ignorant about some of the research going on in our universities. Turn down the confirmation bias and wake up.

        • Pascal's bookie

          How does any of this relate to Boston?

        • Murray Olsen

          Which research in particular? I don’t know much about private companies, but I have a fair idea about what happens in universities. The most worrying stuff coming out of them is the rubbish churned out by de Freitas.

      • Anne 2.2.3

        But if Key tries to link it to NZ fantasy WMDs,

        He will. Nothing is surer… and the uninformed or plain ignorant (which together comprise at least 50% of the population) will probably fall for it.

        • One Anonymous Knucklehead

          Uninformed and ignorant are the same thing. Ignorance, being a condition we all share, is nothing to be ashamed of.

          • ghostrider888

            playing the percentages

            • Anne

              If you’re referring to my 50% claim, the answer is No… ghostrider. I base it on the approx. 50% figure who voted for NAct and other right wing parties at the last election.

              • Lanthanide

                Which is entirely unfair. There are a lot of people who vote for National who know exactly what they’re doing…

                Similarly there are going to be a lot of people that vote for Labour who are uninformed and ignorant.

          • Anne

            Uninformed can be a genuine case of someone not being in a position to know about some things and is not necessarily something of which to be ashamed. Ignorance in my book applies to individuals who have been provided with the prerequisites (eg. an education) to keep themselves informed but are too lazy to bother. They should be ashamed.

    • Te Reo Putake 2.3

      Actually, felix, Shearer was on the case:

      [audio src="http://podcast.radionz.co.nz/mnr/mnr-20130416-0636-labour_refuses_to_back_proposed_law_changes-048.mp3" /]

      And Clayton Cosgrove and Iain Lees Galloway also did excellent work on Solid Energy and Transmission Gully. Been a fine morning for Labour.

      • Colonial Viper 2.3.1

        A reasonable performance – “pass” 6.5/10

        Could have been improved by: emphasising more that John Key was reaching out for convenient ways to hide from the spotlight, and pushing back against the interviewer’s suggestion that it was a Labour Government law at fault.

        • ianmac

          Yes CV “it was a Labour Government law at fault.” and highlight that in 2003 there was strong crossparty support. National voted for it and I bet there are some clever researchers who would find records of National MP speakers of the day who re-enforced the “Not for Spying on NZers line.”

      • felix 2.3.2

        It’s good that he’s there but all I heard was “blah blah inquiry blah blah another inquiry”, and I’m already interested so god only knows what it sounds like to a more casual listener. Something like Charlie Brown’s parents I imagine,

        When Key pulls shit like “WMDs under the bed” it needs to be smacked down right away. Let kiwis know that their instincts are correct, their PM is lying to them, and if it were us in govt we wouldn’t be trying to frighten them to cover up lies and corruption.

        It’s about challenging the narrative itself, not buying into it and arguing the detail.

        • Populuxe1

          Have you never heard of companies like Palentir Technologies?

          • Te Reo Putake

            So what? How does the existance of a company that overseas baddies might be interested in justify spying on Kiwis?

            • Colonial Viper

              A couple of bombs went off in Boston today. That definitely justifies spying on Kiwis. We hold marathons here too, you know.

  3. vto 3

    Shameful that innocent people have been killed in America today.

    Shameful that many more innocent people have been killed in Iraq, Afghanistan and all around the whole place today.

  4. ghostrider888 4

    re Boston; “no ‘chatter’ intercepted before or after detonation events by intelligence”

    The Herald- “You Be The Judge” features a new low bench-mark facing the rising tide of the blogosphere while a woman who uses her credit card to message an “unknown’ face-book friend is fleeced for $300 as parents pay Yule’s pumped up Porse child-care fees there is a big squeeze on for Auckland school as the Ministry is unprepared for demographics, demographics, demographics; there goes the neighbourhood property values vows North Korea.

    The Viper is on to it; The country is frakked..

    • Colonial Viper 4.1

      Re: demographics, you can see what is coming years or decades ahead of time, it shouldn’t get any easier than that.

      Yes the country is frakked…but I’d like to add at this juncture…significantly less frakked than some of our major trading partners…

      • Rogue Trooper 4.1.1

        enjoying the show?

      • ghostrider888 4.1.2

        a reflection from my nurse friend; frankly, she is getting tired of the crap this government and their allies are dumping on the young she nurtures; now they’ve been advised, AraTaiohi, of the additional impacts the Starting Out Wage, increasing youth unemployment rates, ongoing job cuts, drought and effects on grocery prices are going to have on rangatahi; further-more, even a patient dyslexic like her can see that these political / economic shifts by TPTB are out of fear of the concessions to income / lifestyles / assets the pricks are anticipating from rapid social change.(she tends to focus on old-white-men, yet that is a bit of a generalization).

  5. Te Reo Putake 5

    Nat MP Jackie Blue to resign this morning? Anybody heard anything?

    edit, it’s on Stuff. Another bogus appointment from the people who thought it’d be a laugh to give Susan Devoy a job she had no qualifications for!


    • King Kong 5.1

      Failed coup attempt apparently.

      edit: according to Eddie

      • Te Reo Putake 5.1.1

        More like a rat/ship paradigm, I would have thought.

        • King Kong

          Like Chauvel you mean?

          • Te Reo Putake

            Nope, Labour isn’t the Government for a few months yet. Losing personal confidence, losing public confidence, and now losing one his cleverer MP’s. Been a bad few weeks for Dunnokeyo.

            • King Kong

              If reaction in my office is indicative of the country as a whole then you just might be right.

              Everyone is talking in concerned tones about Jacqie Blue, in fact my PA has just run to the toilets crying.

              I will certainly remember where I was when I heard the news.

              • ghostrider888

                you still got it; (on that note, Boston doesn’t have quite the same Flash-Bulb memory exposure as 911; that I can remember to a T; was in the dunny.)

                • Alanz

                  Crony Collins can always be relied on to give another watchdog job to friends!!!


                  There is something not quite right in a sitting Parliamentarian applying for a significant public service job and getting it, and then quitting the House to take up that job. (Of course, if you are yuckyoil or his types like the hoots, the ape, the goose or craigm, then all is fine and acceptable … or it’s all Labour’s fault.)

                  All parties (hello, Shearer?) must commit to making sure this does not happen in this case and also that it never happens again. If parliamentary conventions and Cabinet Manual will not draw a clear bright line on this, then bloody pass a law to prohibit such repugnant appointments.

  6. Rogue Trooper 6

    Total Recall

    “The Fall enslaves us all
    synthetic police
    an illusion, no matter how convincing,
    is still an illusion
    Migrant workers
    what is there to say? You’re from The Colony,
    he’s from the UFB
    welcome, operating systems activated
    I met a woman, she opened my mind,
    it’s the resistance we should be fighting for
    they want to replace the colonists with synthetics
    the past is a construct of the mind
    the heart wants to live in the present.”

    Virginia’s Finest Cut

    -Trampas (Jesus Built My Hotrod)

  7. prism 7

    Gosh the USA gets to be top of the list of today’s Celebrity Countries AGAIN. They seem to manage to dominate the news almost every day. For years anything rather strange brought the response ‘That must have happened in the USA’. It’s just the same now except more frequent and the happenings reported are more worrying because of their global effect.

    Our country wants to follow the lead of the USA, the ‘world’s super power’ but when you look at it the question arises about this man-made wonder country, Is that all there is?’ to hope for in our civilisation.

    Perhaps it would be more rational to stop trying for a noble, happy civilisation and follow the words of a song by Peggie Lee, a great singer – “Is that all there is, then let’s keep dancing!’ Try Fever too.

    • ghostrider888 7.1

      interesting view prism; I too was fascinated, not, that across all the Sky news channels there was simultaneous marathon coverage for the casualties of a US city, yet, do we see the same expose of Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Gaza, shall I go on (rhet. obviously)

      and then, and then, despite the apparent absence of intell, the US have scrambled in NY, Washington and L.A. (Chicago already blown away).

      Two Things; we are not supporters of Harre, and even Rachel Smalley seemed to be struggling over the coverage; we despair, we honestly despair.

      Yet, we may see more street protests before the year is out

      • prism 7.1.1

        What’s up with Harre criticism? And I didn’t hear it all so what did Smalley not do?

        • ghostrider888

          been following her development on TDB; just not our cup-of-tea politically, sorry to say, though that is not to say she is an excellent advocate on many issues personal to her. Hey, the ghost is only human.

          • prism

            Something happened to my link to Peggie Lee – it just vanished – so here again.

            (Brought this up to a more relevant position than down below where it’s ended up.)

            • ghostrider888

              memorable dis illusionment Peggy; reminds me of Diana Dors, Ella Fitzgerald and Nina Simone.

              In the beginning, was the Word, or, was that Love. It certainly was not possessions, though maybe a little possession.

              (first through a glass darkly now we see clearly s.e e indeed.

  8. Te Reo Putake 8

    Well, a great day for the opposition just got better! After working together on the EPMU’s manufacturing enquiry, we now have a further sign of what the next Government is going to look like:

    David Shearer (via fb):

    “This Thursday at noon Green Party Co-leader Dr Russel Norman and I will hold a joint press conference to unveil policies to bring down power prices and give Kiwi households some financial relief.”

    This is more like it, Labour and te Greens! Give the public something solid to aspire for, give them a reason to vote. Niiiice!

    • Colonial Viper 8.1

      Interesting that Shearer chose not to signal 24 hours ago that this press conference was coming. I don’t think that was the correct strategy – a build up to today’s event would have been superior IMO.

      However, I will be impressed if Labour and the Greens come out with something solid and strong.

      • Lanthanide 8.1.1

        Yeah, I don’t get the idea to not announce it yesterday. Guess they wanted to be in the news all this week:
        Monday: Labour gonna do something
        Tuesday: Labour set date for when they gonna tell us
        Wednesday: Speculation about what Labour gonna do
        Thursday: Announcement of what Labour gonna do
        Friday: Analysis of what Labour gonna do

    • Anne 8.2

      An outward sign they are working together. Good one!

    • ghostrider888 8.4

      well, at least he got a move on; yesterday it was “not something we have the details on, will be working…yadda yadda.” maybe he’s got a bomb under him!

    • felix 8.5

      This is good to hear. Labour/Green ftw.

    • millsy 8.6

      I await with interest these measures, though I anticipate they will be underwhelming.

  9. Thoughts and wishes to the people of Boston today. My family there are okay thankfully.

    • Pascal's bookie 9.1

      That’s good to hear Brett.

    • prism 9.2

      What a shock for people with family and friends n Boston, and of course anywhere. A NZ interviewed who supports running as a great sport for bringing people together was sad and emotional about this injury producing and murderous attack.

    • Professor Longhair 9.3

      Meanwhile, 55 more people die in Iraq due to car bombs….


      • vto 9.3.1

        They are just Iraqis Longhair – they clearly don’t matter anywhere near as much.

      • Brett Dale 9.3.2

        A lot of kiwis have family there buddy, thus the coverage.

        • Colonial Viper

          Or, dead white English speaking people rate more in the media than dead people of all other kinds put together.

          • TheContrarian

            Or that bombings in a major US cities are rare events whereas Iraqi has been on the news for 10 years now.

            • freedom

              and if greater coverage [i.e. truth] was ever broadcast in the US media about the slaughter of innocents in other countries, largely perpetrated by the US, perhaps the reaction in the US would mean the US would be less likely to be bombed in the first place.

              • TheContrarian

                This assumes Boston has been bombed by a foreigner for reasons that have to do with foreign wars

                • freedom

                  not at all, not even a little bit.

                  Domestic attackers are just as likely to use foreign policy as a catalyst for a terror event. This is highlighted throughout numerous publications especially in those produced by the Department of Homeland Security.

                  And you know that as i am very confident you have commented on it in the past, so what was the point of your comment?

  10. prism 10

    Something happened to my link to Peggie Lee – it just vanished – so here again.

  11. vto 11

    Since the massacre of those school children at the last publicised shooting in the usa, how many other attacks have there been?

    I suspect up to one every day. Like car crashes off NZ ski field roads they are kept on the quiet for obvious reasons.

  12. freedom 12

    voices of opposition are growing as NZ media stays so very very silent on this inherently corrupt absurdly secretive and blindingly obvious Corporate takeover of democracy and self-determination

    nah, i’m probably just over-reacting. I’m sure it’s all ok, that nice man Mr Key said everything is groovy

  13. Ennui 13

    I went for a coffee at a local watering hole this morning: sitting near to the till….a very large gentleman walked by checked proceedings, and stood outside on alert. Following him to the till, with his wife was our Prime Minister, who then paid the bill. Probably not on the taxpayer, he took no receipt that I saw.

    I observed, just another dull suit, an average middle aged guy buying breakfast with his lady. So ordinary. We all give him s**t here, but I had no impulse to intrude and do it publicly.

    Gave me to reflecting that despite the c**p that goes on we cant be too bad a place when our PM can walk down the road…if I had the job (heaven forbid) I would not want to have the security dude present often. And we are small enough for our representatives to be close enough to touch.

    What would you have done differently?

    • ghostrider888 13.1

      online media is doing it, patiently.

    • freedom 13.2

      As he goes to leave you quietly call out
      ” excuse me sir, you forgot your conscience”

      well we can all dream

    • Murray Olsen 13.3

      On the other hand, I saw Helen Clark, Muldoon, and Bolger a number of times with no apparent security at all.
      As to intruding on them in public, I did stand in front of Roger Douglas once and tell my dog that if she knew what scum he was, she’d bite him. The people with him laughed. He didn’t.
      With Key, I’d probably just walk out of the watering hole. Depending on my mood, I might say something. I really have no desire to find out.

  14. Sanctuary 14

    This Boston marathon bombing has occurred on Patriots Day in the USA.

    So now if I had to pick I would say domestic terrorism, only because Timothy McVeigh also chose Patriots Day, 1995, for the Oklahoma city bombing.

    • TheContrarian 14.1

      And the Waco siege ended on Patriots Day – another big event the wing-nuts get excited about. I think a lone wolf ‘patriot’ wil be the culprit. Much more likely than islamic terrorists at this stage.

  15. ianmac 15

    Is there more to come @ Question Time today re the Appointment of Ian Fletcher?

    10. GRANT ROBERTSON to the Prime Minister: What role, if any, did he play in recommending the appointment of Ian Fletcher as Director of the Government Communications Security Bureau?

  16. freedom 16

    q: If you are told vaccines work so well, and people decide to get their child vaccinated, why are people so afraid of unvaccinated children being at school with them?

    • Colonial Viper 16.1

      They like to see everyone worshipping at the same altar. It shakes their fragile faith in the proscribed ceremony if some people choose not to participate on bended knee. You know, like large numbers of nurses and doctors choosing not to get the flu jab every year.

    • muzza 16.2

      Its a question which won’t be answered by anything other than the Herd Immunity response!

      Which is of course, not an answer.

      That said, many people are still comfortable with forced medication through the water supply, and have been fooled into believing that hydrofluorosilicic acid is safe to ingest, so sure, force vaccinate everyone, or ban/ridicule those who don’t, comply

      Only serves to illustrate how much damage the hydrofluorosilicic acid as done!

      • Lanthanide 16.2.1

        Oh noes, it has acid in the name, it must be bad!

        Next thing you know, you’ll be warning us against dihydrogen monoxide, the greatest industrial chemical coverup ever by none other than Barrack Hussein Obama.

        • muzza

          Its a toxic by-product which is procured primarily from the mining, and fertilizer industries, sold by counties such as China, who ban it from their own water supply, but yet dumped into the supplies elsewhere.

          Quite a scheme given the costs involved to dispose of the poison otherwise, instead, being paid and have someone take it off your hands, genius!

          What are you trying to compare water with poison for?

          What you have done, is announce how silly you are though, BRAVO!

          Edit: Many parts of NZ, and the world do not have flouride in the water, in fact those which do are in the minority by some margin these days.

          Sensible knowledgable nations, such as found in Scandanavia, laugh when the topic comes up, they moved past the discussion long ago!

          Seems like you may have had more than your share pal!

          • Lanthanide


          • NickS


          • muzza

            Great come back from Lanthanide/NickS – Standing Ovation!

            Lanthanide, try answering the question I asked you, instead of the nonsense you spouted above!

            Oh noes, it has acid in the name, it must be bad!

            Next thing you know, you’ll be warning us against dihydrogen monoxide, the greatest industrial chemical coverup ever by none other than Barrack Hussein Obama.

            What are you trying to compare water with poison for?

            Silly boy!

            • NickS


              • muzza

                Awww – Nicky boy, come on fella you can do better than that!

                Generally speaking, while your comments are that of someone with little real experience, they pack more content than those of Lanthanide, who actually manages to say SFA most the time, so the use of a face, in response by him is about what I would expect.

                I would expect something better from you though, even if its just some rage fuelled abusive rant, a clue-bat here, a derp or two there….come on bro, get stuck in my comment above.

                Don’t put yourself in the same space as Lanthanide, you’re better than that…

                You’re better than that..

                You’re better than that..

                You’re better than that..

                You’re better than that..

                You’re better than that..

      • ghostrider888 16.2.2

        this section of the dental floss is very entertaining 🙂

    • Lanthanide 16.3

      Because vaccines are never 100% effective. Your child could still get the illness and have mild symptoms and pass it on to others, such as members of the family, which could potentially be life threatening depending on the disease we’re talking about.

      • Jackal 16.3.1

        There are many cases where vaccines haven’t worked properly and some where they haven’t worked at all… Couple that fact with the documented cases of people having adverse reactions, and there’s no doubt that vaccination should be a personal choice, not forced by the state.

        • Lanthanide

          “Couple that fact with the documented cases of people having adverse reactions, ”

          There’s a lot of documented cases where people without vaccinations have had adverse reactions, too.

          • freedom

            “There’s a lot of documented cases where people without vaccinations have had adverse reactions, too.”
            this comment is the equivalent of poking out your tongue and going ‘nah nah nah pffft pfft pffft’
            those you refer to have not had an adverse reaction, though they may have had a natural and perfectly normal illness.

        • McFlock

          If the choice only endangered your own kid, the issue would be more clear cut. Failing to vaccinate a child that would not high risk for adverse reactions would just be negligent parenting, not public endangerment.

          • muzza

            Got kids McFlock?

            • McFlock


              Nope. But nor am I sure that my vaccinations all worked 100%. I’d hate to get seriously ill just because some nutbar decided that they were afraid their little precious would catch autism.

              • ghostrider888

                this is all good stuff lmn.

              • muzza

                Yes seriously, and dude your thinking is flawed, as well as obviously selfish.

                Try this – I am neither pro, nor anti vaccination, but I am pro choice!

                If that means some people get sick and/or possibly die, including myself, then so be it, free people have some choices……

                The day when forced vaccination comes to be, is the day people who share your position, will be wishing they had never conjured such a thought, let alone aired it in public!

                Be careful what your ego wishes for, cos it will come with a large portion what you fear most attached, most likely taking away what you value most!

                For your health and safety, of course!

                • McFlock

                  Why is my thinking selfish?
                  Learn to read. Do you think it’s fine for people to seriously endanger others based on myth and nutty ideas?

                  A measles outbreak in remmers, mate. That’s the light end of the scale, and there’s no excuse even for that.

        • NickS


          In terms of relative risk though, you’ve got a much higher chance of catching measles, mumps or rubella and suffering serious side effects (or death) than you are to suffer serious side effects from the MMR jab.

          And frankly, a lot the “research” people end up doing is via anti-vaccination sites and due to lacking science educations, they’ll usually not be able to spot the huge fucking flaws in the anti-vaccination bullshit. Or due to social connections, will buy the bullshit because someone they trust believes it. Thus there’s serious ethical reasons regarding leaving the decision up to parents and due to usual human behaviour, trying to educate people will hit a brick wall. As the more popular (at the public level) something wrong is, the harder it is to get people to realise it’s wrong.

          • Jackal

            I would be interested in seeing this research that says the relative risk is low you’re refering to NickS, because the amount of market removals for vaccines are now higher than any other drug class. That indicates that vaccines are one the least safest prescription drugs available.

            You can only argue that the relative risk is low if you actually know the amount of adverse reactions compared to the likelihood of infection… I presume you can link to that information to support your argument?

            • Colonial Viper

              Nah vaccines are in a super special class all by themselves, the lower the chance of infection the more important it is that everyone has to have it (to keep it that way etc.)

              • Jackal

                Vaccines shouldn’t be compared to other recalled drugs because they’re designed to prevent instead of cure illnesses? Not a very robust argument there CV, especially considering that vaccines have been shown to lower people’s immunity thus increasing susceptibility to various other infections.

                Unfortunately there’s a percentage of people who have an adverse reaction to vaccination, with there being some documented cases of people dying. Therefore individuals (especially those with strong constitutions) shouldn’t be forced into having vaccinations.

                • Colonial Viper

                  The less probable actual benefit a vaccine can convey to you and your children, the more you should unzip your trousers and take your shot like a man, for King and Country you know.

                  • NickS


                    Here’s an idea, how about you bother actually doing some research into the science for once? Especially as you live in CHCH and so have a very well stocked University Library, filled full of textbooks that’s open fairly late most weekdays. Or you could bother checking science blogs covering vaccines and how they work to gain basic functional knowledge…

                    Instead of douching it up.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Fuck me mate

                      What the fuck can they pretend to tell me about how much they think they know about how the human immune system works. They can’t even sort out a common case of psoriasis.

                    • NickS

                      What the fuck can they pretend to tell me about how much they think they know about how the human immune system works. They can’t even sort out a common case of psoriasis.

                      The Stupid, It Burns

                  • Jackal

                    Judging by your reply, am I to assume that you’re being a bit facetious there CV? Apparently you don’t even have basic functional knowledge… Didn’t get your shots for that eh?

                    Somehow I don’t think the Maori King (New Zealands only King) would advocate for forced vaccination… Besides, being that vaccines have also been shown to cause sterility in some patients, I plan to continue manning up so to speak by not being vaccinated.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Yeah sorry, I missed the /sarc tags earlier on.

                      Basically, there is a long list of drugs and vaccinations out there which were “proven safe and effective” (and had people like NickS assure us of that fact) then ended up pulled off the market just a few years later because when actually used on real people in real circumstances, they proved themselves much less than safe or effective.

                      For that reason alone, compulsion to undertake any treatment should be vigorously ruled out.

                      And remember, there is only one certain risk free beneficiary from every dose of drug or vaccine sold. Big Pharma.

                    • NickS


                      In the cases of many of those withdrawn drugs, there were very significant failures by the drug companies to act in good faith and do the fucking population studies properly, or worse yet, falsified data. Or in some rarer cases, issues weren’t noticed due to the fact the sample sizes used for drug trails are unable to pick up all possible phenotypes, so issues pop up later during monitoring. Publication of those results, then results in withdrawl, lawsuits and laws being brought to cluebat.

                      And it should be fairly fucking obvious I do not support bullshitting by the drug companies.

            • NickS


              One thing you’re failing to to do is actually sanity check your assumptions. Each vaccine released is usually chemically different to another vaccine, even for those targeting the same disease. Often as ongoing research into how each vaccine works and monitoring of pathogens can provide better antigens to target, higher levels of immune respone or safer vaccines, such as using protein fragments instead of heat treated viral particles or bacteria. Thus assuming withdrawl of multiple vaccines = all vaccines are dodgy is a rather dubious line of reasoning.

              As for risks, I’m going to be lazy (if you want more, you need to do teh research):

              How serious is the disease?

              Measles itself is unpleasant, but the complications are dangerous. Six to 20 percent of the people who get the disease will get an ear infection, diarrhea, or even pneumonia. One out of 1000 people with measles will develop inflammation of the brain, and about one out of 1000 will die.


              The number of febrile seizures attributable to the administration of DTP and MMR vaccines was estimated to be 6 to 9 and 25 to 34 per 100,000 children, respectively. As compared with other children with febrile seizures that were not associated with vaccination, the children who had febrile seizures after vaccination were not found to be at higher risk for subsequent seizures or neurodevelopmental disabilities.


              Furthermore MMR vaccine has undergone very extensive safety studies due to the scientific fraud Wakefield committed, as well as being improved, of which this safety information is easy available if you know the basics of science researching. i.e. you need to look at the bloody science published, grasp it and integrate it into a cohesive web that links to understanding how vaccines work, complications therein and science101. And citation records are a boon to hunting down newer work.

              Instead of assuming anti-vaccine sites have the same equivalence as published research like so many people mistakenly do. Which I blame media’s “two sides” meme for…

              • Jackal


                One thing you’re failing to to do is actually sanity check your assumptions.

                I’m not making assumptions, I’m stating facts… Facts that you seem incapable of properly comprehending NickS. For instance, you’ve linked to a study about just two vaccines that cause an increased risk of seizures… It concludes:

                There are significantly elevated risks of febrile seizures after receipt of DTP vaccine or MMR vaccine, but these risks do not appear to be associated with any long-term, adverse consequences.

                That doesn’t counter the fact that the amount of market removals for vaccines are higher than any other drug class.

                all vaccines are dodgy is a rather dubious line of reasoning.

                I haven’t said all vaccines are dubious, I’ve said some are and the amount of recalled vaccines outnumber any other drug on the market. That would indicated that they’re more dangerous than the companies producing them claim.

                I’m still interested in seeing this research that says the risk from all vaccines is relatively low NickS?

                • NickS

                  And you’ve failed to actually look at the rate of those reactions and contrast them against measles.

                  And you’ve conviently ignored the rather clear message I made about not lumping in all vaccines.

                  As for the GBI report, it’s stuck behind a hideously overpriced paywall and so I can’t see what they’ve done vis their definitions, I can’t see their methodology, I don’t know if they’re grouping immunoglobins and vaccines and I have no idea about the trustworthiness of it compared to a science journal. Thus any info there is stuck in limbo. In otherwords, go hunting for something I can actually get some useful traction on.

                  Oh lordy:

                  That would indicated that they’re more dangerous than the companies producing them claim.

                  Your reading comprehension, brush up on it. And while I could have worded that argument to be a bit more clearer, you’re making assumptions about safety of all on the grounds of a limited window and lack of fucking reasons for recalls of specific vaccines. For which the reasoning of that paragraph still very much applies.

                  Heck, I doubt seriously if you have any idea about the shear number of drug candidates that don’t make it every decade after showing potential function in stage one trials…

                  • Jackal


                    I have no idea about the trustworthiness of it compared to a science journal.

                    Who’s making assumptions now? Good luck arguing against a scientific study NickS.

                    you’re making assumptions about safety of all on the grounds of a limited window…

                    What assumptions can I make when the study conducted into the amount of recalled drugs states:

                    GBI Research’s report, “Regulatory Intelligence on Biologics Recalls– Immunoglobulins and Vaccines are Involved in More Recalls than Other Drug Classes”, provides in-depth analysis of biologics recalls issued or reported with the US Food and Drug Administration (FDA) and its constituent agencies. The report analyzes biologics recalls on the basis of the reason for recall, therapy area, drug class, dosage forms and the recalling company, on a year-to-year basis from 2007–2010.

                    You should perhaps just admit that you were wrong NickS.

                    lack of fucking reasons for recalls of specific vaccines.

                    Are you saying that one drug class is more likely to be mislabeled than another, and therefore that’s the reason immunoglobulins and vaccines are the most recalled drug class?

                    One would assume that mislabeling would be relatively equalized across all drug classes, and that immunoglobulins and vaccines are more likely to be recalled because on average they’re more dangerous!

                    go hunting for something I can actually get some useful traction on.

                    I’ve linked to a synopsis of a study that supports my argument… If you want further proof that I’m correct, go look for it yourself.

                    Heck, I doubt seriously if you have any idea…

                    I doubt anybody would have any idea about what you’re arguing NickS, especially when you write things like this:

                    …about the shear [sic] number of drug candidates that don’t make it every decade.

                    Perhaps you should heed your own advice and brush up on some reading comprehension skills yourself.

                    • NickS

                      Whoops, that’s what I get from too much sugar…


                      Anyhow, a quick fisking of the FDA data set: http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/SafetyAvailability/Recalls/default.htm turns up a few things. In particular, H1N1 vaccines had high recall rates, primarily due to manufacturing stuff ups (sterility, wrong materials, use by dates), leading to a large spike in recalls. Compared to the previous two years however, total vaccine recalls where 3, of which two occurred in 2009 for H1N1 vaccines.

                      Most importantly, none of this recalls where for adverse reactions, rather they were recalled due to the three above reasons + antigen levels or strength. Which does frankly undermine your safety angle. Furthermore the recalls happened fairly quickly.

                      A similar pattern appears from scanning the drug recalls, with most recalls being not adverse reaction based, but rather manufacturing issues (contamination, sterility, i.e. mold).

                      Thus, I suggest that one actually bothers doing a bit more indepth research beyond a somewhat problematic GBI report that’s more fluff than anything important.

                      Hie thee to Google Scholar!

                      Recommended that you use a tabbed browser, with multiple opened windows and regular checking of wikipedia, which will oft have vaccine stuff on it due to anti-vaccine stupidity being cluebatted. Otherwise there’s plenty of science-based blog posts out there.

                      – contains heavy linkage to other info
                      – Gorski explains things clearly, albeit verbosely
                      – thus useful learning and for link-surfing to cover further ground on vaccine safety

                      The information is there, you just need to hunt for it. Preferably not on crank sites (ye shallth know them by their contradictions and science101 failures) except for checking out the rather disturbing things some people believe. However a trigger warning applies for the likes of whale.to and friends due to extremely high levels of batshit insanity contained within them and it is not recommended that you read the comments for the sake of your continued sanity.

                • rosy

                  Jackal, that article specifically refers to “Biologics – Immunoglobulins and Vaccines”.

                  That’s not vaccines as such, that’s a specific class of vaccine, therapeutic, not preventative vaccine.

                  Today, vaccines are considered prophylactic because they are given to healthy people to prevent a disease — diphtheria, influenza, polio, and malaria, to name a few. But many, if not most, of the new biologic vaccines being developed are considered therapeutic because they are given after a person has contracted an infection, such as HIV, or has a chronic disease, such as certain cancers.

                  You can’t really use these as an argument against the childhood immunisation schedule, which is a schedule of preventative vaccines. Biologics are in a completely different league and not for mass population disease prevention.

                  • NickS

                    Actually, vaccines are lumped with biologics by the FDA in it’s recall data. Mainly as they’ve got low rates of recall and are biological in orgin. Ranging from live cells/viruses, dead cells/viruses, whole proteins and at teh bottom protein fragments.

                    • rosy

                      Ah – thanks. Still, he can’t use preventative vaccines, alongside other biologics as an argument against the safety of preventative vaccines. The categories need to be split.

                      It holds that preventative vaccines recall rates are not because of safety of the vaccine. In the list FDA recalls list you’ve linked to there are manufacturing issues, not vaccine safety issues, that prompt recalls.

            • NickS

              Oh yeah:

              because the amount of market removals for vaccines are now higher than any other drug class. That indicates that vaccines are one the least safest prescription drugs available.

              [citation needed]

              Also – one of the more problematic issues with designing vaccines is that sometimes the sample sizes you use to test for efficacy and safety aren’t large enough. So often when vaccines are removed it’s to do with them failing to trigger immune responses significant enough to trigger long term immunity or having higher predicted rates of side effects.

              Thus, in order to say anything about “safety” you actually have to fucking bother to look at why a vaccine was pulled. Rather than assuming like you do above that the total number of vaccines pulled were pulled for safety reasons. Furthermore I suspect you may be adding vaccines which are in development to your list, which like drug development, often runs into issues in later stages that prevents release into the market. HIV vaccines for example often fail with great fanfare in the media…

              [lprent: fixed blockquote. ]

    • rosy 16.4

      “why are people so afraid of unvaccinated children being at school with them?”

      Parents may be unclear about how vaccination protection works, and some may be rather emotional about unvaccinated children, but health and education officials are worried about unvaccinated children infecting other unvaccinated (or immune compromised children) sparking a public health crisis and disruption in education. This health crisis and disruption is more severe as the higher the number of unvaccinated children. Take a look a the current measles outbreak in Wales for an example.

      we know that around 6,000 children in the Swansea area alone are still not fully vaccinated against measles, and we cannot be confident that the outbreak will not continue to grow with so many children still at risk from this very contagious and potentially fatal disease.”

      • Colonial Viper 16.4.1

        Forget education its mainly about making money and workers who stay home and take sick days to look after unwell kids cost businesses and the economy money.

        • ghostrider888

          sticks and stones may break their bones, yet whips and chains excite them; some pretty tense apprehensions to come over Boston; funny if it turned about to be an North Korean jihadist funded by the aryan liberation front.

          • Colonial Viper

            It looks like home grown amateur hour from this distance.

            They found multiple unexploded bombs, which means that whoever did this is not only incompetent, but stuffed.

        • rosy

          I don’t disagree that it’s also about workers taking time off, I disagree on the ‘mainly’ angle.

          A public health crisis caused by a measles epidemic is enormously expensive, dangerous and disruptive. Take you’re pick, depending on your level of cynicism, about the main reason for health authorities advocating vaccinations, but there are a lot of parents in Wales doing mea culpas right now.

          • ghostrider888

            +3 Rosy and NickS, I’m with you guys where it is available and population penetration is achievable.

          • Colonial Viper

            And what were the odds ratio between vaccinated and unvaccinated kiddies getting sick?

            Were vaccinated kiddies really 50x or 100x less likely to fall sick than unvaccinated kiddies. Or only 20x or 10x or 5x or 3x.

            Wouldn’t you feel shit if you were a parent who made your kiddies take all their vaccines and they fell sick anyway. The empiricists would say we have no idea why but just your bad luck then I suppose.

            • NickS


              By the Elder Things you can be fucking stupid sometimes.

              It all comes down to biochemistry, i.e. everything is chemical and chemical interactions are messy and have these things called “probabilities” involved and so despite good environmental conditions, a interaction can go wrong. Scale this thinking up to the biochemistry of immunological memory* and you get multiple avenues for failure even with well designed vaccines even more so when taking into account biological variance. Apply population thinking and volia, an explanation becomes readily apparent.

              Details of which can be found in a variety of textbooks dealing with biochemistry, cell biology and immunology. So go edumacate yourself.

              *gene-expression, antigen binding, protein-protein interactions, mutations, the list is huge once you get into the fine details)

              • Colonial Viper

                Lots of mechanisms it’s just too bad the organism ain’t a machine.

                Apply population thinking and volia, an explanation becomes readily apparent.

                Yeah, “bad luck” and “educated misconception” (or whatever technical terminology you want to use) still overpowers all that fancy stuff.

                • NickS


                  Ye gads, how hard is it for you to fucking think? My short explanation relies heavily on how biochemical systems interact within an organism at multiple levels. So I can only assume you lack even a rudimentary background in basic organism to cell biology…

                  Fuck, even assuming that I’m using a machine analogy is an act of grand stupidity. So in future, try sanity checking your assumptions first…

  17. freedom 17

    had to take a few long slow breaths before posting this as the first draft of the comment was not fit for public disclosure.

    I cannot describe the sickening hatred I currently wish to express towards the New Zealand Herald upon seeing this despicable piece of bile. Despite recent attempts of pure gutter-journalism in NZ MSM, this is perhaps the lowest point in the history of New Zealand ‘journalism’ and the associated global publication of this vile ‘event’ can do nothing but foster hate and bigotry. I do not think i am overstating it to say in many minds this will forever tarnish the reputation of New Zealand media.


    • Colonial Viper 17.1

      the NZ Herald advocating for a return to public floggings.

    • kiwi_prometheus 17.2

      I think its an interesting exercise.

      I would have given the defendant in Case 1, less time I think – but I would like to know what the verbal argument was about at the pub leading up to the incident.

      Case 2, why didn’t her husband sign off on home detention, so she does community service instead – seems reasonable enough.

      • freedom 17.2.1

        “I think its an interesting exercise.” thank you for confirming all of my fears as to the type of person that would be attracted to this sort of ugliness.

    • Murray Olsen 17.3

      Isn’t that pretty much what Bill English did? She should get the same sentence as him.

  18. kiwi_prometheus 18

    After a constant barrage of pro gay marriage propaganda from the NZ Herald it has finally published a great piece defending marriage – but the Granny does then give another pro gay “marriage” peddler an unchallenged right of reply.


    Rex Ahdar presents an excellent argument for protecting marriage:

    ” Two visions of marriage confront us. The conjugal model says that marriage is a lifelong union between a man and a woman. The partnership model says marriage is a contract between committed, loving couples.”

    While the pro gay Clements avoids the issue, carrying on emotionally about being “grossly offended” by Ahdar and serving up the predictable mawkish “Love love love!” non argument.

    • Colonial Viper 18.1

      You do realise that your marriage won’t be affected by Louisa Wall’s bill, right?

      • kiwi_prometheus 18.1.1

        Why do you believe heterosexual marriages won’t be affected?

        What do you believe the bill is actually doing to marriage?

        • NickS

          Null hypothesis.

          Fucking google it.

          • kiwi_prometheus

            Angry Nick doesn’t like having his precious pro gay “marriage” opinion challenge.

            Again, straight foward questions you seem desperate to avoid answering, why is that Nick?

            Here let me put them to you again:

            Why do you believe heterosexual marriages won’t be affected?

            What do you believe the bill is actually doing to marriage?

            • framu

              why do you believe they will be affected?

              are you saying that traditional marriage is so weak that a “bunch of poofs getting hitched” will bring it down?

              • kiwi_prometheus

                As Ahdar so succinctly puts it:

                “To redefine marriage (to allow same-sex partners) is to abolish it. Partnership marriage does not keep the existing institution and simply allow more persons to join it. No, it eviscerates it and substitutes a new concept.”

            • NickS


              I love ignorant, arrogant righties (as much as love those on the left, anti-GMO nuts be nasty), they’re so fun to cluebat :3

              At it’s simplest, a Null Hypothesis (Ho) is that treatment/factor x will produce no significant change in a system under observation, and needs to be shown to be incorrect via empirical evidence. More fun follows as you need to have support for an alternative hypothesis over other alternative hypotheses + mechanisms of action, all backed up by empirical evidence.

              The Ho here is so that allowing same sex marriage will have effect on heterosexual marriage, namely rate of, length and divorce rates, however while you and other opponents are quite happy to ask multiple question, you’re yet to show us any fucking evidence. Other than your poor hurt feelings, which from a human rights angle are not sufficient rational to deny others their secular human rights*.

              Empiricism, it’s not that fucking hard.

              Nor is human rights.

              And yet it seems some are utterly incapable of grasping such simple concepts…

              *Human Rights act basically, if you don’t like it please be aware that it also protects your right to believe whatever religious nonsense you want, thus giving you protection from discrimination by fundamentalist arsehats.

            • NickS

              Nick uses “logic”.

              It’s super effective!

              k_p is now too terrified to reply!

              • muzza

                Where you have you actually applied what you write in here into real life Nick, perhaps you can tell everyone how your life experience gives you such wide reaching awareness and a /smugface outlook on clue-batting!

                I’ll not hold half a breath,

                Which is why you did a roll-eyes runner from our earlier conversation, because your self belief is built on a pile of quicksand, which you have no real control over, and no desire to step out of your comfort zone!

                Super effective my A.R.S.E – Its all theory and SFA else!

                • ghostrider888

                  This geo-engineered climate stuff muzza; is it in addition to AGW / nonA GW / regional models etc?

                  • muzza

                    Hey ghostrider

                    I suggest a re-route of the question to McFlock, given he’s certain nothing is going on, I’ll assume he spent some time reaching that conclusion, paying attention, knowing what to look at/for etc…

                    Let me know how the response comes along….


                • NickS


        • prism

          Just get on with the relationship building in your own marriage, that’s the main thing. And leave other people to work on their own healthy relationships.

          • kiwi_prometheus

            Why don’t gays get on with relationship building in their own civil unions and leave heterosexual marriages alone?

        • framu

          because theres nothing saying you have to marry a gay person perhaps?

          • kiwi_prometheus

            As you quoted from Ahdar yourself:

            “To redefine marriage (to allow same-sex partners) is to abolish it. Partnership marriage does not keep the existing institution and simply allow more persons to join it. No, it eviscerates it and substitutes a new concept.”

            Of course you then start trash talking Ahdar, without actually addressing his argument.

            • framu

              of course i trash talked him “We did not invent hedgehogs, we simply named them” – pretty sure we invented marriage. Did it exist before? do hedgehogs marry?

              I trash talked him because his argument is crap

              “To redefine marriage (to allow same-sex partners) is to abolish it” – how does that happen exactly?

              ive addressed it – his argument is full of holes, straight people wont go to hades for putting up with gay marriage.

    • framu 18.2

      ” It has a true essence, a fundamental nature; it is a real phenomenon, not just a human invention or convention. A hedgehog is a hedgehog, a tree is a tree, a river is a river. We did not invent hedgehogs, we simply named them. We can call a cat a hedgehog if we want but that does not change its essential nature. All it does is lead to confusion.”
      “To redefine marriage (to allow same-sex partners) is to abolish it”
      “They lack the inherent structure to rear well-rounded, psychologically secure children.”
      “But arguments based on equality are empty. To insist upon equality is to require that “like things are treated alike””:

      the guy is bat shit bonkers KP – hes a fricken law professor and he spouts garbage like that? This article has been roundly debunked as flimsy reasoning already. Its not an excellent argument – its a poorly constructed, fools argument.

      Marriage means only what the immediate people entering the marriage want it to mean
      What have you got against gay people enjoying the same legal rights as anyone else?
      What gives you, me or anyone else the right to say “Thats mine – its not for you”?

      I will give you a puzzle to ponder.
      My elderly, straight, aunt married her long term gay, male best friend. Why? because the cared deeply, nay, loved each other – they wanted to declare their commitment to each other and they wanted to ensure they had some say in matters relating to wills, hospitalisation and other matters – considering that had nothing to do with sex or child rearing, should that have been disallowed?

      If they were allowed to marry just because of the nature of their private parts, why the hell cant two men or two woman get married?

      • kiwi_prometheus 18.2.1

        “My elderly, straight, aunt married her long term gay, male best friend. Why? because the cared deeply, nay, loved each other”

        They are faking it though, shame on them.

        Because some rat bags fake it, gays should be allowed to do it?

        Following your argument a grandma and grand daughter should be allowed to get married cos its all about LURV!

        That is bat shit bonkers.

        That’s why

        “This article has been roundly debunked as flimsy reasoning already. Its not an excellent argument – its a poorly constructed, fools argument. ”

        Liar. You need to start facing the truth, mate.

        • framu

          “They are faking it though, shame on them.

          Because some rat bags fake it, gays should be allowed to do it?”

          who the fuck are you to pass judgment on my family members? – do you know them?

          I think you need to apologise

        • felix

          What are they faking, exactly?

          • kiwi_prometheus

            That they are attracted to each other, in love, whatever you want to call it.

            My god you’re so drunk on PC Feminist propaganda you can’t even see the obvious?

            • Te Reo Putake

              Whew! I’m glad its not just teh gayz you’re bigotted against KP, all those fake arranged marriages by Johnny and Mrs Foreigner need to be anulled toot sweet, too. They can start with that German woman whose face is on our money and her Greek so called ‘husband’ Phil. Thanks for clearing that up.

            • felix

              You’ve admitted before that you can’t find any reference to me writing about pc feminist propaganda so I’ll thank you to keep your descriptions of me to those which you can actually ascertain.

              Who says two people have to be attracted to each other sexually in order to marry?

              • kiwi_prometheus

                “You’ve admitted before that you can’t find any reference to me writing about pc feminist propaganda so I’ll thank you to keep your descriptions of me to those which you can actually ascertain.”

                LOL, who are you trying to kid, girlfriend! You are hardcore Feminist, like the other Power Girls, Princess of Thorns and Karol, you are always spewing Feminist received wisdom – patriarchy, essentialism, cisgender, rape culture.

                All standard Sociology/Arts Department Wimmins Studies 101 drivel.

                Anyway I thought you got the huffs with me and weren’t going to talk to me anymore?

                • felix

                  “You are hardcore Feminist, like the other Power Girls, Princess of Thorns and Karol, you are always spewing Feminist received wisdom – patriarchy, essentialism, cisgender, rape culture.”

                  Every time you say this, I ask you to show where I’ve done so.

                  So far you have never once managed to point to any such thing I’ve said.

                  I patiently ask again: Please point to my writing on feminism, hardcore or otherwise.

              • kiwi_prometheus

                “Who says two people have to be attracted to each other sexually in order to marry?”

                Well if you believe that then surely you believe a grandma and a granddaughter should be allowed to get married.

                • framu

                  no, because thats incest.

                  Please tell us you actually know the difference, im starting to get worried for your soul

                  • kiwi_prometheus

                    How is it incest if they are not attracted sexually, they are not engaged in sexually conjugation with each other?

                    • framu

                      OK – ill admit that incest is specifically about sexual contact – but your whole grandma grand daughter thing is pretty stupid

                      see – its not that hard to admit you got something wrong

            • framu

              and here comes the long winded name calling – you do realise KP that it just confirms what we are all thinking – youve run out of argument

              • kiwi_prometheus

                No you are the one who has no argument or should I say a defeated one.

                You refuse to engage in the points I’ve made, or those expressed in the Ahdar article.

                Telling you went into a rant about Ahdar being all BS with no counter argument to his.

                • framu

                  yet you seem to think equating same sex relationships with incest is some sort of argument?

                  shit mate – you havent made a single coherent original statement through this whole thread.

                  you also havent answered one single question with anything that addresses the content of the question

                  • kiwi_prometheus

                    Are you gay?

                    Just wondering because you seem to have flipped out big time.

                    • framu

                      nope – straight as, but would it make a difference? – been with the same woman for nearly 14 years. my best friend since we were both about 16 – im now past 40

                      i just hate putting up with fools when it comes to living in a secular society

                      and since when does asking a few questions and having a few hedge hog jokes equate to flipping out?
                      And its almost cute the way or strut your stuff and fling the muck about then go all coy and ask me if im flipping out – your not trying to marry me are you?

            • framu

              what are they faking KP – a short answer will do

        • framu

          “Following your argument a grandma and grand daughter should be allowed to get married cos its all about LURV!”

          never said that – whats next? You gonna say its a prelude to someone marrying their dog or toddler?

          your still avoiding the central issue though – in a secular democratic society that is meant to recognise that we are all equal before the law, what give you me or anyone else the right to claim that we can enjoy a right and deny it to others at the same time?

          • kiwi_prometheus

            “never said that ”

            But its there in your principle stupid -> “its all about LURV!”

            You lot just keep going around in ever decreasing philosophical circles. And it comes back to what Ahdar articulates about 2 concepts of marriage – conjugal and contractual.

            You want to erase the former with the later – but you don’t say this to the NZ public, you disingenuously claim that marriage won’t be affected, that its just about making it “more inclusive”.

            • framu

              an argument for love doesnt equal and argument for beastiality, pedophillia or incest

              im not trying to erase anything – you need to prove that allowing gay marriage will bring about the erasure of procreation for that to be true

              and as for going around in circles – perhaps responding to the actual questions put to you would allow us to move forward? It would seem you are the one creating the circle we must follow because you avoid the substance of the rebutal

              • kiwi_prometheus

                “you need to prove that allowing gay marriage will bring about the erasure of procreation for that to be true”

                BS. Look mate you are not even paying attention to the opposition’s argument. And you don’t seem to have much understanding of your own argument.

                You are the one saying marriage is only about love, your example given is an older woman and a gay guy who love each other. So what about a grandma and a grand daughter who love each other?

                • framu

                  “You are the one saying marriage is only about love”
                  where did i say that? – all i gave is a real world example of a marriage that doesnt fit the judeo christian model

                  and did you not say “conjugal and contractual. You want to erase the former with the later”?

                  seems your the one not paying attention

                  still waiting for the aplogy for slandering people who arent here to defend them selves – what are you? some sort of cad? a bounder perhaps?

                • rosy

                  Marriage of gay guy and unrelated straight woman allows them to be, legally, a family. Grandma and granddaughter are already a family. Born that way. Your comparison makes no sense.

          • kiwi_prometheus

            “your still avoiding the central issue though – in a secular democratic society that is meant to recognise that we are all equal before the law, what give you me or anyone else the right to claim that we can enjoy a right and deny it to others at the same time?”

            As Ahdar points out:

            “The use of the slogan “equality” cleverly skews the debate…[Thus Team Gay Marriage can dodge ] having to demonstrate why the new model deserves to replace the existing institution.”

            • framu

              thats not an answer to the question. Stop posting quotes and do some of your own thinking.

              Try formulating a word, then stick a few together – bongo! thats a sentence.

              Then when youve got that under control – stick a few of those sentence thingies together and whaddya know – its a freaking paragraph!

              • kiwi_prometheus

                It is a devastating reply to your mangled argument.

                I will continue to quote Ahdar, he has produced a very articulate argument – not surprising from a man of obvious sharp intellect.

                You just can’t handle it can you, framu.

                • framu

                  what? your failure to say something original from your own brain? Nah mate, cant handle that – dont like talking to robots

                  To be honest – im feeling a bit left out. Surely ive earned one of your multi adjective insults by now? What gives?

                  • kiwi_prometheus

                    ” your failure to say something original from your own brain? ”

                    You have only put foward the standard pro gay marriage argument, you have provided no original argument.

                    ” dont like talking to robots”

                    So quoting from a source is wrong? You haven’t got a university education have you?

                    ” Surely ive earned one of your multi adjective insults by now? What gives?”

                    As compared to you lot who are just all sweetness and nice! ( Especially Princess of Thorns, lol )

                    • framu

                      “So quoting from a source is wrong?”

                      not at all – but if thats all youve got it makes you look like you dont have much else to say.

                      So what if my argument isnt unique – at least i can argue my corner with my own words – and answer the questions put to me at the same time!

                      im still interested in the whole same sex relationship somehow being the same as incest thing

                    • kiwi_prometheus

                      Reply links still not showing.

                      framu -> “So what if my argument isnt unique – at least i can argue my corner with my own words”

                      Oh ok so first I’m guilty of not being orginal but now you admit you arent saying anything original.

                      So now you change it: apparently you think you are superior because I use some relevant quotes.

                      [lprent: The system only indents 9 levels of reply. You are currently trying to reply at level 10. That is why there are no reply buttons. ]

                    • framu

                      for god sake!

                      “original from your own brain” – note the “from your own brain” bit

                      like i said – if all your going to do is post quotes you obviously dont have much to say.
                      If you do have something to say then say it, dont fling the insults about and engage honestly with the responses

                • McFlock

                  Calling equality a “slogan” is a “devastating argument”?

                  I suppose that’s why George Wallace had the moral high ground all though the 1960s.

                  • kiwi_prometheus

                    Calling equality a “slogan” is a “devastating argument”?

                    See there you go, twisting and squirming.

                    pro gay “marriage” proponents USING equality as a “slogan”.

                    • framu

                      except they’re not – rex (and you) are saying that. Own it

                      Still no long winded insult yet – sigh 🙁

                      perhaps rooting a godless hedgehog will lift my spirits? – i could even marry one 🙂

                    • McFlock

                      Just working off your quote, kp.

                      “The use of the slogan “equality” cleverly skews the debate…

                    • kiwi_prometheus

                      I’m not getting any Reply links on your recent posts so here goes:

                      McFlock “Just working off your quote, kp. ->

                      “The use of the slogan “equality” cleverly skews the debate…”

                      Well McFlock, do you not understand the use of the quote marks around the word equality that Ahdar puts there?

                      Again are you really that stupid or is it just more game playing?

                      framu -> “OK – ill admit that incest is specifically about sexual contact – but your whole grandma grand daughter thing is pretty stupid”

                      Its stupid because it is the result of YOUR argument that marriage is a contract between two people in love, nothing else. It illustrates the failure of your argument.

                      The conjugal argument doesnt have to allow for that as you say pretty stupid arrangement because it is comprehensive.

                    • framu

                      no KP its stupid because its stupid – dont make me accountable for your words

                      its the same kind of stupid as the “so you want to make it legal to marry your dog” argument

                      and again – i never claimed marriage is only about love – all i did was highlight a real world example of a lawfull marriage that doesnt fit the moral arguments being made by the anti gay marriage crowd.
                      The whole point of it was to highlight that it exists yet doesnt fit. If it already exists why are other marriages that dont fit be not allowed when that one is?

                      please engage with the question for once

                      Dont make me point that out a third time!

                      MODS – thats the last im saying on this topic – apologies for filling up the comments this much

                    • McFlock

                      Well McFlock, do you not understand the use of the quote marks around the word equality that Ahdar puts there?

                      Yes. They denote the thing that the author is calling a slogan. Because “The use of the slogan equality cleverly skews the debate…” would indicate that using equality between two or more slogans skews the debate. At the very best, it is possible the author assumes that “using the slogan ‘x'” has the same meaning as “is using X as a slogan”.

                      All you’re doing is editorialising a poorly-written and poorly-conceived rant against the state regarding different sexual orientations as equal (with the same rights and without religious or cultural prejudice). You then pretend that your wishful inferences were the explicit phrases the author used. They’re not.

      • felix 18.2.2

        “My elderly, straight, aunt married her long term gay, male best friend”

        According to k_p’s previous comments on the topic, if your Aunt is post-menopausal then he wouldn’t approve of her marrying anyone.

        All about the procreation, see.

    • Daveosaurus 18.3

      There are words for people like you, who insist on trying to insert yourselves in consenting adults’ bedrooms against their own wishes. About the only such word which is actually repeatable in polite company is ‘defendant’.

    • Alanz 18.4

      A quick online search shows Ahdar is pro-child smacking:

      “The arguments for banning corporal punishment are philosophically suspect, linguistically strained and not supported by the rather limited research evidence. The authors conclude that the present law on parental smacking should remain.”


  19. NickS 19



    And forget Mars, with this tech the asteroid belt is within easy reach, as is Saturn and Jupiter’s moons and so all the ice (water, oxygen, heavy water for fusion reactor/thruster fuel), organics and minerals*, human colonisation of the solar system could ever need. Although the power system for this fusion thruster would probably need a nuclear reactor to power it, which at this stage, would probably be a modified US Naval reactor. And if the Lockheed Martin fusion reactor proves viable, that could also work as a power source.

    However, the thrust is only 0.004g, so very long term missions would require centrifuges to maintain astronaut health. But given this system can keep the thrust up fairly constantly, even large space vessels shouldn’t be too much of an issue.

    *With the right minerals, hydroponics mediums are easy to make + organic crud you’ve got pretty much all you need to seed a biosphere for food production. Combine it with a power source and any permanent or long term human occupied bases can be semi-self sufficient and self-sufficient in the long term once manufacturing systems are established.

    • Draco T Bastard 19.1


      Although, I wouldn’t build the enterprise as using today’s tech it’s too impractical. I’d be more likely to build something like this.

      • NickS 19.1.1

        Last link’s not showing anything 😛

        • Draco T Bastard

          Interesting – does for me.

          Try this one.

          • NickS

            ty and yeah, the fusion rocket could easily shift a ship that big. As would VASMIRS and other ion-based thruster arrays

            As for the Enterprise, it’s an iconic design, but bloody impractical from an engineering perspective 😛

            I see things breaking off really easily if it has to make sharp turns even with titanium structural framing.

            • Draco T Bastard

              Oh, I figure even the ion drives that are suggested on http://www.buildtheenterprise.org/ would work. The real hard part would be the cooling of the fission reactors as radiant cooling just isn’t that good.

              I see things breaking off really easily if it has to make sharp turns even with titanium structural framing.

              That would apply if it made sharp turns which it can’t – with today’s technology we’re pretty much limited to a straight line push. I consider it impractical because of the way he’s configured the gravity wheel. That’s an accident waiting to happen that will tear the whole ship apart. Then there’s all that added mass in the iconic design that requires more fuel and energy to push around.

              I happen to think that building such a ship is a great idea.

  20. gobsmacked 20

    Question time in Parliament:

    Peters has Key on the ropes. Catches him out in yet another lie, and then … runs out of supp questions (small parties have fewer allocated).

    Perfect opportunity for Labour to pounce … “Point of order/Supp Q: Is he seriously saying he can’t remember more than one call?”

    But … silence. Nothing. Labour’s questions already wasted by their irrelevant leader. Fucking useless.

    • freedom 20.1

      Absolutley pointless behaviour by Labour, and some incredibly weak questioning by their members. The Speaker though is getting worse every session. He has no control of the Government benches in the House and is visibly rattled by the importance of the topics and his inadequate dealings with them

      Blinglish though 🙂 “the Mighty River Shower” pure gold 😉

      as Peters asked ‘What is the point of Question time?’
      under the current make up, one must wonder if Winston doesn’t have a point

      • gobsmacked 20.1.1

        Good work at the end by Robertson, Norman, Peters … getting the PM to dig a deeper hole, and even admit that he’s clueless!

        If an MP can think on his/her feet, they can trap Key and make a fool or liar out of him. But there’s one MP who can never think on his feet, and – inexplicably – he happens to be the (ceremonial) leader of the opposition.

        • karol

          Yes. On all points.

          And the more “clueless” Key looks, and the MSM pick up on it, the more his “I can’t answer because I don’t have that information with me” will backfire on him.

    • Murray Olsen 20.2

      Shearer is the best National MP in the house. He has to go.

  21. js 21

    DoC funding cuts were savage a few weeks ago. Now Key has announced that he is going to give many more millions to Tourism but only for ‘high end’ tourists. What/who are they? The big gamblers and/or the ones who hate the environment? Rich gamblers who own mining companies perhaps?

  22. TheContrarian 22

    Is anyone listening to Question Time?

    • freedom 22.1

      audio is constantly dropping out and feed is generally crap today

      • TheContrarian 22.1.1

        Did you see Key say emphatically he couldn’t remember where he got Fletcher’s telephone number…followed by “oh I got it from Directory service”.
        He was then told he couldn’t get mobile numbers from directory assistance to which he said “It was redirected”.

        Talk about making shit up as you go.

        • Pascal's bookie

          He’s dug himself a hole.

          I find the whole ‘I forgot about the phone call, it was a supplementary question, 16 seconds to answer’ routine to be bullshit.

          He was asked what role he played in the appointment, and said none, the SSC appointed him..

          That’s not forgetting a phone call; it’s forgetting that the short list was rejected, that there was then discussion about what to do, that you suggested Fletcher, then rang him, and that the guy who was appointed was the guy you suggested and rang.

          Fuck knows why he’s bullshitting, but it’s bullshit.

          • freedom

            Some of it may have worked as almost credible if he wasn’t grinning out of his arse everytime he mentions the issue in the House. Complete contrast to the impersonation of a concerned statesman he presents when the general public see him on the MSM.

          • TheContrarian

            I just don’t know how “I don’t remember” can turn into “not only does it seem I can remember but I can also remember very specific details”.

            I watch question time everyday and this one really got my head scratching (as well as Peters and his pronounced slurring)

            • freedom

              and he now cannot remember how many times he called Ian fletcher?

              oh sorry in the interest of fairness
              “I don’t have that information [at this time]”

            • felix

              “I just don’t know how “I don’t remember” can turn into “not only does it seem I can remember but I can also remember very specific details”.”

              It’s not complicated TC, he’s bullshitting. Non-stop.

        • freedom

          as Contrarian points out above
          John Key in the House,
          when asked how he had the phone number of Ian Fletcher replied: ” No clue”

          then he says he asked Queensland Directory for the number wtf?
          making it up as he goes along

          He wraps it up by ‘correcting’ his answer to say that he had someone in his office make the call and they were redirected to Ian Fletcher’s phone.

          So, this should be easily cleared up by a simple audit of the calls to Queensland Directory made from the PM’s office. A very small list I would imagine as the PM’s office has access to every number in Queensland that the office could possibly require via the numerous inter-agency relationships between NZ and Australia. My bet is the GCSB and friends, just to be safe, are frantically installing said metadata on Queensland Directory files asap.

          • Te Reo Putake

            It’s amazing what you can find in the telephone directories! The usual chocolate fish to the first to spot the PM:

            25+ items – Details of Identities By Phone (856)354-08XX. Please select the …
            0812/(856)354-0812/0 Dunn, Okeyo Lupe 810 Pennsylvania Avenue Cherry …
            0819/(856)354-0819/0 Carr, Brett William 210 Jefferson Ave Haddonfield …

          • ianmac

            Very strange behaviour re phone calls @ Question Time.
            a. Cagey about how many times he called Ian Fletcher. Therefore there must be some reason for this being worth the question. What else is already known?

            b. He was quite emphatic at various times when asked. He said that he pulled out his phone and phoned Ian.
            Now he says that he got someone to call directories and found out that way.
            (But Directories do not give out cell phone numbers.)
            Note that the Opposition thought his answers very funny. Govt benches did not.

            • McFlock


              • ghostrider888

                was thinking about what visual art i like about then, and after Hotere and Chagall, thought the surrealists. Dali, Bosch etc

            • felix

              “Now he says that he got someone to call directories”

              Not quite ianmac. He said he might have got someone in his office to call directory or he might have done it himself.

              His staff will have pointed out after question time that the “directory” story he made up on the hoof could easily come back to bite him if it turns out the number wasn’t listed, so he’s gone back to the house and inserted a layer of deniability between himself and his lie.

              But he just said it was he that called directory only moments before, so he can’t 180 his story. Hence “might have”. So as far as he recalls it was him, but the moment it turns out that he can’t have got the number that way, he can say “Well it was my office, I don’t know how they got it”.

              But as you do, I seem to remember him saying to journalists last week that he already had Fletcher’s number in his phone.

              It’s lies about lies covering up lies.

              • North

                For Christ’s Sake………can anyone really see a busy PM picking up the phone , index finger bang bang bang 018 ? Or whatever the equivalent is for Brisbane if that’s where the guy was at the time ? Unless it was one of those naughty lines he was after.

                This takes “I’m an ordinary joker……” just far too far. Like incredibly so.

                Read someone on TS saying Key’s lost his political judgment. Seems like it. Or it’s his knowledge that there’s something really cagey hovering just below the surface and he’s rattled. Spooked. Shitting. So he talks unguided broken biscuits. Like it’s Wall Street ’29.

                I’ll be watching Amy Adams’ reactions. She’s the one behind and one seat to the left of The Ponce. Dependable for the overstated shaking of the head and the sneering “I don’t know” smiles at the questions Dunnokeyo stands up like a jack-in-the-box to answer, utters “Rhubarb !” or something similarly potent, then sits down quick and hard.

                Bet your bottom dollar that the more demonstrative she gets the more she’s really wondering……????? About God. Such is the stuff of a cheap bottle blonde Tory baggage ex-real estate agent or whatever she was before the none-too-attractive snout dived deep into the trough.

  23. Draco T Bastard 23

    And this government pours millions more into education – in private schools. Plenty of government money for the rich – not so much for everyone else.

  24. McFlock 24

    Interesting – The Conservatives’ first election outing has resulted in the election commission referring two candidates to the police “for filing a false Candidate Election Expenses and Donations Return”.

    Including tory-for-hire Larry Baldock.

  25. freedom 25

    This crap with Key has been going on for a long time. The Maori Party have a very clear C&S agreement yet the Maori Party have not been asked a single question on any of it.

    I posted this on 05/04 when the Rennie statements were being made:

    Why have we heard nothing from the Maori Party about this?
    Are integrity in Government and transparency of process not important to them?

    from the C&S Agreement:

    “It is agreed that relevant spokespeople within the Māori Party will be briefed on significant issues which are likely to be politically sensitive before any public announcements are made.”
    “*Advance notification to the other party of significant announcements by either the National lead Government or the Māori Party”
    “* Briefings by the National led Government on significant issues before any public announcement”

    – so when the PM diligently told the Co-Leaders of the Maori Party about the appointment of our top spy, did either of them ask about the appointment process? If so, why then did the Maori Party stay silent in the House when the PM lied to Parliament? (and continue to be mute on the topic)

    Why have the Maori Party not been asked about the real world application of these basic foundations of co-operation in their C&S agreement with the Government?

    – these C&S points are also interesting when considering the Mighty River Power and the Solid Energy fiascoes.

    • North 25.1

      Toryana Torya and Peter Potato Sharples. Only Maori in Aotearoa who really, really, really needed a friend called John.

  26. Draco T Bastard 26

    79% want sea protest law change reviewed or stopped

    Overall 79% of New Zealanders, regardless of their political alignment, believe a bill restricting rights to protest at sea should now go back to a Parliamentary Select Committee for more thorough scrutiny and public submissions or be dropped.

    The majority want it dropped altogether:

    Overall, 51.4% oppose a proposed new law which would make some currently lawful protest activities against petroleum and minerals activities at sea unlawful

  27. North 27

    Haven’t read the 203 comments above so this might be superfluous but My God, how Freudian of that smarmy little punk Simon Bridges in Parliament today, speaking on his blooding in the passing of anti-democratic, anti-protest legislation directed at decent New Zealanders:

    Bridges – “……..sends a message that this regime is supportive……..”

    Too right it does ! Supportive of what and whom ? The dogs in the street know.

    Typically, the up-himself little ex-Crown prosecutor has not an ounce of insight into what his glib wee words reveal. Watch the hubris grow and grow and grow.

    An unctuous self-seeker entertaining nil principle.

    • ghostrider888 27.1

      regime indeed ; I was thinking how defensive you must need to be Jafa.

    • prism 27.2

      Talking about ‘regime’ – Wikipedia explanation is –
      Modern usage
      While the word regime originates as a synonym for any form of government, modern usage often gives the term a negative connotation, implying an authoritarian government or dictatorship.

      I think that this meaning is closest to the little Bridges creep’s reference. He must have difficulty with his shoes – having to get two right ones all the time. Probably can afford them being custom-made.

  28. Blue 29

    Interesting Aussie perspective on why NZ has spawned a diaspora (and how little John Key cares):


    Read it just for a journo who doesn’t fall all over themselves loving John Key and has a working bullshit-detector.

    • North 29.1

      Thanks for that link Blue. Go Anita Quigley ! Read it folks. Very interesting. Maybe Johnny Wanker ain’t the darling in the world beyond these shores that he claims he is ?

  29. North 30

    Saved the Thatcher thing on TVOne. Halfway through watching it. What a shameless hagiography if ever there was one !

    Strange – “hag” = “ugly old woman”, according to a reliable dictionary. Gonna delete it now and off to my Sleepyhead. Up early tomorrow starch my wing collar for the 8 million pound funeral.

    • prism 30.1

      Margaret Thatcher is having most pompy funeral since Winston Churchill. What a smear on his memory. Belittles him really. And he may have liked her – British establishment to the core and all that. But his commitment to the country at war elevates him above any right wing peccadilloes he had.

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