[Please note, we are trialling something new for Open Mike and Daily Review.
In order to keep OM and DR free for other conversations, all comments, link postings etc about the US election now need to go in the dedicated US election discussion here.
If you are unsure, post in that thread rather than here. It’s not possible for moderators to shift posts from OM to there, so any comments here may get deleted.
Prime Minister John Key has joined with a new ally – after saying he supports the Ngaruawahia gang Tribal Huk’s efforts to address the methamphetamine crisis.
The Waikato town’s gang gave P dealers until 6:30pm on Friday to leave or they would be run out of town – with president Jamie Pink saying violence would be used if necessary.
Tribal Huk’s 24-hour warning to Ngaruawahia meth dealers expires Ngaruawahia silent as meth-dealing deadline passes It’s a move Mr Key says he welcomes.
“Obviously we welcome any support to do something like that so long as it’s legal of course,” he said on Monday.
I thought the war on P was going so well, but vigilantes do it better than the law?
He’s a populist. Any bandwagon that looks as though it’s likely to generate both a following and positive press coverage, and you’ll find Key clinging to the side of it like a fucking barnacle. He’s utterly shameless.
hi all,
i am thinking of having a chat to some young teenage boys about consent.
i am wanting to pick brains of fellow standardistas for ideas/analagies.
i have heard the cup of tea analogy, and would like to see if that can be fleshed out, added to, or another way of discussing this altogether.
personally the idea of acting against someones wishes is abhorent to me.
i contrast my upbringing: loving parents, decent solid father, pornography was a well leafed magazine in a mates brothers bedroom, alcohol was something that was consumed responsibly.
fully 3/4s of these young men lack a father in the house and a significant number of them, the male is a figure of conflict. (custody battles, communication etc)
as for pornography, there is no comparison to yesty year.
Sounds like those boys need more men in their lives, not less, as seems to have been advocated by many in that other post on being a bitch
[I haven’t seen anyone on that thread say that. Another moderator has set your comments to go into moderation for approval, so maybe be a bit more careful – weka]
I suppose it depends on the context (and make sure you run it by the parents/caregivers first, otherwise you risk just being a weirdo talking about sex to teens 🙂 ).
Thinking back on myself at that age, and what seems to work for my younger relatives, maybe the mind/body duality thing? Not to get carried away by anger/love/whatever, but to stop and say “am I being smart about this?”. That and “look at all blacks – being dumb off the field can still fuck up your career and life”.
Oh, and the difference between love and infatuation: love is when you know everything about the other person, infatuation is when you know nothing about them but assume they fit your desires.
According to The New Zealand Initiative there is no rise in income inequality. That is if you conveniently ignore that a rise in the value of houses is income for home-owners.
It’s odd to me anyway that a rise in net worth is not classed as a rise in income according to the New Zealand Initiative.
I appreciate that you have acknowledged that there is a distinction between capital and income. In my view they are not the same, a capital gain is not simply income in another form.
Income usually produces an actual cash amount each week, month or quarter.
A capital gain is not realisable until the capital asset is sold. Even then it may be illusory. For instance most NZ’ers have the bulk of their capital in their house. Selling and buying on the same market simply means a different house, not any cash. However, I do appreciate that the large increase in Auckland property prices has given people to opportunity to buy cheaper elsewhere and release quite a large amount of cash.
As far as I understand the data, there has been no real change in income distribution in New Zealand over the last twenty year. By that I mean wages, salaries, business income and interest and dividends.
What has occurred, largely as a result of land inflation and stock market increases in the last five years, is an increase in wealth disparity. Around 30% of people rent rather than own, and by and large they have less wealth as proportion of the national wealth than 15 years ago.
I also suspect that some suburbs in Auckland, typically wealthy ones, have had a larger percentage value increase than some less wealthy suburbs. And there is no doubt people have used their increased equity to support investment expenditure, even it is often home improvements, and also helping their children buy a house/apartment. Going around Devonport or Herne Bay, virtually every house has been expensively refurbished in the last fifteen years, and these suburbs have become $2 million average house price suburbs.
As far as I understand the data, there has been no real change in income distribution in New Zealand over the last twenty year. By that I mean wages, salaries, business income and interest and dividends.
Well that’s nice. I guess we just tell the increasing numbers of people begging on the streets that it’s always been like this. Same goes for those school kids who don’t have any lunch or are lucky enough to have a charity come to school and feed them. It’s ok kids it’s always been like this. And those growing encampments of “motorhomes” on the streets, yeah they’ve been there since like the mid 90s. No worries mate.
At the same time they have cut Julian Assange’s internet connection in the Ecuadorean Embassy (UK) to the outside world.
NatWest bank is in charge of internet connections to the Ecuadorean embassy? That’s pretty awesome diversification.
And lastly, a senior and very respected leader of the rebel military forces in the Donbass has been assassinated by an IED at his family home.
Or to put it another way, a local warlord well known for killing prisoners annoyed one person too many and got his beans. The guy was a Russian who got his combat experience in the suppression of colonial uprisings in Chechnya and went to the Ukraine so he could kill Ukrainians, quite likely at the behest of the Russian government. I thought you were against foreign fighters and mercenaries attacking sovereign countries?
And lastly, a senior and very respected leader of the rebel military forces in the Donbass has been assassinated by an IED at his family home.
War criminal gets his.
Motorola and his battalion are also accused of torturing captured Ukrainian soldiers. After Ukrainian soldier Ihor Branovytsky had been captured near Donetsk and was in custody of Pavlov’s group, Pavlov is alleged to have deliberately killed the prisoner on 21 January 2015 with two headshots
I don’t have too much of a problem with that last article, on the face of it at least. If people from that community can deal with the problem when the police and justice system can’t, then that seems an appropriate interim measure. If we lived in a sane society, local authorities and NGOs would start working with the gang to support them in their more social justice work e.g. the feeding kids thing.
…and Im not sure who decides what is appropriate mourning…. or by extension religion,sexuality, work ethic or even race.
Would you have much of a problem had the target had been a bottle store owner?….or any other person that offends some other/s?
It’s not about offence. If the bottle store owner was going out and pushing spirits onto teens in a way that actively contributed towards alcoholism and degeneration of the community and the police were not able to stop that, then I probably wouldn’t have too much of a problem with locals stepping up and taking action (within limits).
I don’t understand the relevance of the link. Are you saying that all gangs are the same degree of badness? No gangs should be given credit for the good things they do?
Surprised you wish to conflate the posts with gangs (although it is mob mentality)
The original post was headed “vigilantism and intolerance on the rise”…and with it extreme behaviours….I wonder if you would have been as accepting had the target been someone other than an alleged drug dealer….i note that it has been reported Duterte’s extrajudicial killings have been used as cover for other motives.
What I’m arguing is that what is vigilantism in one situation might be useful community action in another. I think you want to condemn all of them on principle, is that right? Because people shouldn’t take the law into their own hands? Whereas I think look at each situation and decide if there is more good than evil being done. That’s why I chose to focus on the gangs, because I’ve been finding the situation with Tribal Huk interesting.
The ‘intolerance’ shown by Tribal Huk for P dealer who are selling drugs to teenagers seems appropriate to me.
Of course, and we stood up against that and changed it.
You seem to be arguing a principle, which is laudable, I just don’t think IS, Nazis and active homophobes are going to take any notice of it so it’s a bit moot.
“Unless it’s the entire community that’s affected that has come up with a plan of action, then nah.”
hmm, I think when we’ve had conversations around community in the past you’ve said it’s on the people who are affected by something.
“Me and my mates think P dealers ought to go? Big hurrahs.
Me and my mates also reckon corner dairies shouldn’t sell alcohol? Big hurrahs.”
Me and my mates think that the P dealers who are selling P to teenagers are a problem and we’re going to do something about it more like. Are corner dairies selling alcohol causing the same kinds or degree of problems?
Everyone that’s affected must be included, ie, given a genuine opportunity and encouragement to participate in whatever decision and/or course of action meaningfully – yes.
otherwise…
me and my mates reckon corner dairies shouldn’t sell alcohol and if you ain’t agreeing with that, then maybe you’re a part of the problem….
Everyone that’s affected must be included, ie, given a genuine opportunity and encouragement to participate in whatever decision and/or course of action meaningfully – yes.
That’s the ideal, and it would be interesting to consider how that could happen e.g. a meeting where the P dealers could speak publicly, or where people would the people scared of the gangs could be in a room with the gangs. Meanwhile, in Ngaruawahia they don’t have that capacity.
I have absolutely no idea what the organisational capacity of the community is. But whatever its limits may or may not be, vigilantism is not ever community action and always comes with the same toxic side effects/risks. (I’ve outlined those – the rise of an illegitimate and unaccountable (usually) moral authority)
Did anyone ask the P addicts what they wanted done? Did they have any say in anything at all? What happens to them and their need for a fix ‘today’? Any support in place for them or are they just being left to twist in the breeze?
Whoop. No P dealers….in this street/this neighbourhood/this town. Chased out they were. Now what? Chase out ‘the bloody kids’ who want to take the stuff?
Agree Pat, that it’s the same social mentality (a part of the same sliding scale) that’s fueling and excusing wide-scale killings in the Philippines. And y’know, I dare say Duterte does some ‘lunch sandwich’ stuff too that’s welcome and appreciated.
When you endorsed the vigilantism of “Huk” as appropriate, – “The ‘intolerance’ shown by Tribal Huk for P dealer who are selling drugs to teenagers seems appropriate to me.” – where were the addicts?
Draw whatever line you prefer between supposedly acceptable vigilantism and unacceptable vigilantism. You don’t think it’s dairies? Choose something else. Though it’s the vigilantes, having been empowered through endorsement that actually get to choose (that was my point when referencing dairies).
The downward slope heads out in a precise direction and ends in an unsavoury place.
When you endorsed the vigilantism of “Huk” as appropriate, – “The ‘intolerance’ shown by Tribal Huk for P dealer who are selling drugs to teenagers seems appropriate to me.” – where were the addicts?
Probably the same place as the teenagers being targeted by P dealers when you categorically opposed what Tribal Huk did.
Draw whatever line you prefer between supposedly acceptable vigilantism and unacceptable vigilantism. You don’t think it’s dairies? Choose something else. Though it’s the vigilantes, having been empowered through endorsement that actually get to choose (that was my point when referencing dairies).
The downward slope heads out in a precise direction and ends in an unsavoury place.
That sounds right if we were saying living in a society based on anarchism. But I think there are enough natural limits in NZ due to the state, the police force and the justice system for it to not go down that slope.
Pat is arguing the principle, you are arguing the ideal (“Everyone that’s affected must be included, ie, given a genuine opportunity and encouragement to participate in whatever decision and/or course of action meaningfully – yes.”), I’m arguing the pragmatics of what can happen in that community right now. I guess Pat wants it left up to the state. I’m not sure what you want (but I assume not leaving it to the state). I’m saying that on the face of it, I don’t have too much of a problem with it. That’s not actually an endorsement of vigilantism in the way you are suggesting.
Another example might be friends and relatives getting together and putting a stop to a rapist where there is no chance of that happening via the legal system. It happens, it’s not without risk (in a number of ways to various people), I don’t endorse it but I don’t have too much of a problem when it happens where there are few other meaningful choices.
To be clear. I’ve agreed that an unaccountable sub-group within a community making unilateral decisions based only on their own notions of right and wrong and following through on their own notions of appropriate action with no thought for wider repercussions within the community, just can’t clear any reasonable bar of justification and so therefor can’t be condoned.
Odd that you argue any downward slope leading off from that could only happen in a society basing itself on anarchist principles when vigilantism flies so directly in the face of anarchist principles of democracy and democratic accountability .
The Philippines (occupying a space further along the spectrum or down the slope) definitely isn’t a society that embraces anarchist principles. Neither is India (the other example from the original list of links I opened).
I’ve agreed that an unaccountable sub-group within a community making unilateral decisions based only on their own notions of right and wrong and following through on their own notions of appropriate action with no thought for wider repercussions within the community, just can’t clear any reasonable bar of justification and so therefor can’t be condoned.
I’m not sure that Tribal Huk are unaccountable in that absolute way. They went to a public meeting, they appear to have some support in the community. I’m wondering if they have levels of accountability within the hapū and iwi structures locally. This is why I said on the face of it, we don’t really know what happens there.
Odd that you argue any downward slope leading off from that could only happen in a society basing itself on anarchist principles when vigilantism flies so directly in the face of anarchist principles of democracy and democratic accountability .
I didn’t use the word only. Nor did I imply inevitability. I gave that as a counterpoint to my point that the State structure in NZ would stop the slippery slope.
(and as an aside, I’ve yet to hear the explanation about how anarchist societies do or would manage people who behaved in other ways, e.g. via vigilantism. But that’s an old argument).
The Philippines (occupying a space further along the spectrum or down the slope) definitely isn’t a society that embraces anarchist principles. Neither is India (the other example from the original list of links I opened).
That doesn’t have anything to do with my points though. I’m not saying that vigilantism is good, never a problem, or never a slippery slope. I haven’t looked at the other links.
Then they came for P dealers who were selling addictive drugs to kids.
Doesn’t have the same ring to it. I don’t know the original context for Niemoller’s quote but I don’t think he was arguing what you are arguing (feel free to clarify what you mean though).
Well, no, Martin Niemöller was not arguing that criminals should not be punished. Just that we should speak out when the innocent are punished, even if we ourselves are not targets or don’t even particularly like the targets. It’s about the community protecting each other from unjustified persecution to protect themselves from the same.
Frankly, applying that to pedophiles and p dealers is a travesty, in my opinion.
and who decides the innocent?…in Nazi Germany all those named by Niemoller were considered criminals, just as less than three decades ago homosexuals here were considered criminal and were run out of town just like our alleged P pushers…when you allow insanity to prevail no-one is safe nor immune…..not even those passing judgement.
the point is those making the judgement may not…..ISIS consider anyone not adhering to their version of Islam fair game, just as many appear to think dispensing vigilante justice to alleged drug dealers think they are justified…just because you rate trade unionists highly don’t believe there are not many who would like to see trade unions a part of a distant past….by any means.
In NZ the State does. And the state takes action against people, including violent action, as it sees fit, even against the values of its citizens at times. Someone is deciding where it is ok to intervene.
McFlock, thanks for the comment re Niemoller, that’s how I’ve always understood that quote.
But that wasn’t what I asked.
P dealers and pedophiles have victims. Trade unionists, Jews and homosexuals do not. I’m astonished that this had to be spelled out for you.
Niemöller wasn’t arguing what sort of process should be used by society to enforce its rules – Nazi detentions and murders often took place under the cloak of legislative legitimacy, not mob rule. What he was saying is that we should speak out against manifest injustices in our society.
When it comes to p dealers and pedophiles, the threshold for “manifest injustice” is raised a lot higher than for victimless beliefs or even victimless characteristics.
“t’s about the community protecting each other from unjustified persecution to protect themselves from the same.”
….and as far as the German government of the day were concerned the persecution was justified, whether you accept that or not.
“Niemöller wasn’t arguing what sort of process should be used by society to enforce its rules – Nazi detentions and murders often took place under the cloak of legislative legitimacy, not mob rule. What he was saying is that we should speak out against manifest injustices in our society.”
Nazi detentions and murders happened under both mob rule and legal cloak…you state those illegal groups had no victims yet that was not the position of the government nor many of the population who blamed all the mentioned groups for all sorts of social ills and crimes.
I further note that the similarity to actions against homosexuals in our recent past has been neatly ignored.
Who decides the innocent….”In NZ the State does”
No ,the Judiciary do…through due process…not mob rule.
“I’m astonished that this had to be spelled out for you.”
So the judiciary decides it, even though in the government that Niemöller was talking about the judiciary made that judgement in a manifestly unjust manner and that’s what Niemöller was saying he should have worked harder at opposing.
Niemöller wasn’t talking about the manner in which unjust rulings were made, he was talking about what our reactions should be to manifestly unjust rulings. Not whether it was done by courts or mobs, just whether it was unjust. And if it’s unjust, we should stand against it.
“Who decides the innocent….”In NZ the State does”
No ,the Judiciary do…through due process…not mob rule.”
Yes, and the State rewrites the laws that they act within.
“not mob rule”
And yet if you are a woman who has been raped or a young Māori man who’s broken the law you will get a different kind of justice than if you are not. So this idea that we’re getting to now, that the State has a good process but people taking justice into their owns hands don’t is flawed. Hence my original comment about not having too much of a problem with what Tribal Huk did on the face of it.
this is not about P dealers (alleged) per se…..it is about the rise of vigilantism and intolerance, and the increasingly extreme behaviours associated with that
this is not about P dealers (alleged) per se…..it is about the rise of vigilantism and intolerance, and the increasingly extreme behaviours associated with that
Whoa there, vigilantism and intolerance are two different things.
Vigilantism is what happens when people perceive the legal system as inadequate, and there are good arguments against it. In some circumstances, such as the degradation of society, it might be necessary, however.
Some things should not be tolerated. At all. You brought up pedophilia, for example.
Other things that don’t victimise other people, such as being Jewish or gay, should be tolerated and defended.
If your problem is with vigilantism, you chose a reference that doesn’t actually address it at all. “To Kill a Mockingbird”, or even the old Peter Lorre movie “M” would be applicable. Hell, even Eastwood’s “Hang ‘Em High”. Not Niemöller.
If you think we should “tolerate” p dealers, I do not agree at all.
You might question whether the Huks actually came for the P dealers. Or did they merely frighten them away. Sure intimidation is not beautiful, but neither is selling the more destructive drugs into a community. Of the possible outcomes this one seems relatively benign.
lol…ah i don’t often agree with CV (less and less these days) but he is right …you are very adroit at ducking and weaving but never quite well enough to hide the hypocrisy
I’ve kept to a pretty simple point: Niemöller’s comment was about our reaction to injustice, not about the manner in which the injustice was arrived at. And where p dealers and pedophiles are concerned, it’s a bit more difficult to react to their behaviour in an unjust manner than in response to victimless things like “being Jewish”. Any response purely based on the last is unjust. People tend to be more equivocal about how far you can go with a pedophile before it’s an injustice.
and in return Ill keep it simple…..we have developed a legal system for a reason, and if your lucky enough to live in a country where the Judiciary is removed from the Government then we should use it as intended…..otherwise we may as well have mob rule.
There is no halfway house.
And as the Niemoller quote illustrates no one wins then….not even those who think they are right.
firstly, that’s not what Niemöller’s poem illustrates at all, if only because the Nazi judicial system was not always mob rule, and also happened under legal cloak. Niemöller was talking about his behaviour and inactivity in that environment, so if anything it’s about the consequences of political apathy.
secondly, a legal system that fails to address endemic social harms and crimes leaves a vacuum, a void between everything that should be enforced and that which actually is enforced. When that gap gets too large, that’s when vigilantism and mob justice occurs. This doesn’t mean that an injustice occurs (although it increases the likelihood). It just means that the formal legal system is failing to do its job (usually because it’s become alienated from sectors of the community).
“firstly, that’s not what Niemöller’s poem illustrates at all,”
No?….he used that quote on many occasions over the years , more often than not outside of the Nazi context, but id be delighted to hear your deconstruction.
“secondly, a legal system that fails to address endemic social harms and crimes leaves a vacuum,”
and filling that vacuum with mob rule leads to what?
“firstly, that’s not what Niemöller’s poem illustrates at all,”
No?….he used that quote on many occasions over the years , more often than not outside of the Nazi context, but id be delighted to hear your deconstruction.
@pat Political apathy. Not speaking out about injustice. How many times did he use it in the context of a mob, as opposed to general injustice?
“secondly, a legal system that fails to address endemic social harms and crimes leaves a vacuum,”
and filling that vacuum with mob rule leads to what?
Complete decay of a system that’s alienated from the population.
Nobody here, as far as I can tell, is saying that it’s a good thing that the police are so ineffectual in this matter that they’ve been sidelined. Just that the gang’s threat is a normal and, in the absence of formal effective law enforcement, a legitimate response to a serious social harm.
“I further note that the similarity to actions against homosexuals in our recent past has been neatly ignored.”
Not ignored. Exactly as victimless as being Jewish or a unionist. Illegal in NZ until thirty years ago – until enough people started saying things against that injustice. And same-sex marriage was illegal until very recently, and many of the people who spoke out against that injustice weren’t intending to marry people of the same sex.
Funny how when enough people say something, the world improves slightly. And if we all say nothing, the world gets worse until finally there’s nobody around to say something for us.
Just been reading this blogpost (link below) which popped up on TS feed section. Agree with many of his ideas – but but not his conclusion – and he makes the mistake of thinking just because we have low density in NZ, we should automatically fill it up with people and immigration is a great idea.
looking at the density argument. If we have the amazon rain forest, should we just start building there because it is a ‘low density opportunity in South America? Nope – time we start to value the environment and actually try to preserve some Green spaces left in the world (including countries that for whatever reason are not filled up with people, cars and houses).
How the hell can we keep biodiversity, natural environment with that sort of thinking? Wow there’s a free green space, (Actually probably a thriving ecosystem) but in the eyes of some, Yay lets utilise it by importing someone from he other side of the world to live there.
Sorry I think the way forward with climate change is to actually embrace what little green (and water) space we have got left, live with less consumerism and move trade into a more electronic format but food production more local, make taxes fair, and try not to repopulate every last centimetre of the world with people.
I get many people are migrants here, or forced to be migrants else where by government conditions, but moving people around is not solving the problems it is enabling neoliberalism and the resulting problems to dominate and mask that economically it is not working.
As someone who has often lived in sparsely populated areas that part of his argument made me cringe. He lives in Wellington, so good on him if he wants high density there, but fuck a policy that says everywhere else should be filled up. Empty spaces have value for many reasons, and I don’t see too much difference between his attitude there and colonisation ethics that thought that because the land wasn’t ploughed it wasn’t being used (or was empty).
I haven’t read the GP policy change yet, but I too would hope we could look at what a steady state might be, and then use our relative wealth to support other places to do the same. We should of course be taking far more refugees.
I got the impression the writer was saying we need to allow more immigration because refugees are in huge danger and need a home, not because he particularly wants to ruin our countryside. It’s a strong moral argument and I find it difficult to argue against.
Many of the countries where the refugees are coming from are going to take a long time to repair to become habitable again, and some may not be habitable again. That’s the “nice” solution most people want I guess. Look we’ll fix up your home so you can go back and then we hopefully don’t have to deal with you again.
Our current refugee quota is pitiful. I’m all for increasing the refugee quota. But doubling, tripling of refugee quota is nothing, compared to the current 69,000 migrants and 166,000 work visas being given out by the government. Economic migration of people with 10 million to spend or the skills category providing low paid Chef’s for SkyCity and fruit pickers for industry, is completely different to Refugees.
At one fifteenth the population density of the UK and given that the UK has screeds of open spaces, I’m not buying this nonsense that immigration will suddenly see NZ turned into some kind of endless concrete jungle.
Refugees need the support of other refugees – a sense of continuity and community. Larger numbers, not a few placed here and a few placed there, are required to ensure that. Taking only a few and dispersing them, ensures that a bogus argument about ‘lack of resources’ gains traction. It’s a manufactured scenario designed to excuse turning our backs on refugees and ensure that we’ll always have that excuse as a fall back.
On general immigration, well…we need to overhaul our infrastructure as a matter of urgency given the path we’re on with CC. We’re not doing it (hell mend us), but could quite easily get onto it, alongside any necessary expansion of those infrastructures, if we had, besides the political will and intelligence, the numbers of people required to do it.
Wouldn’t it make sense if, instead of asking about how many millions a person can invest (by way of fast tracking), we looked at how much of a real world contribution to NZ preparedness they could make by way of fast tracking? A lot of what needs done isn’t particularly skilled – but it will take numbers.
There will be an optimum number with regards immigrants. I’ve no idea what that might be. Maybe some academic papers that take into account NZs actual real world requirements has been published? No – of course not.
I’m tempted to say something negative but…well…anyone that produces a one-two combo of Face Value and Hello, I Must Be Going gets to put out as many albums as they like
A United Nations signatory, ToddandClare.com, has published a report on the official UN website asking the UN to stop Julian Assange from using the UN’s name to dismiss a European Arrest Warrant, following a Royal Bahamas Police Force Investigation into child sex offenses involving Mr Assange and ToddandClare.com.
[lprent: See my comments at the end of this. Content hidden. ]
Assange is alleged to have had video chats with the 8-year-old sister of a 22-year-old woman using an online dating site, toddandclare.com.
During those chats, he allegedly performed sexual acts on camera and persuaded the 8-year-old to perform other acts on camera. Her parents reported this to the Royal Bahamas Police.
THE ROYAL BAHAMAS POLICE INVESTIGATION (RBPF) AGAINST
JULIAN ASSANGE: WHAT WE KNOW TO DATE
1
As a UN Global Compact member, ToddandClare.com is duty bound by
United Nations regulations to bring the criminal child sex offenses investigation of
the Royal Bahamas Police Force (RBPF Reference: Sgt Ferguson 1705 RBPF
Thompson Boulevard) involving our business and Mr Julian Assange, to the UN’s
attention.
2.
On Wednesday, September 28, 2016, ToddandClare.com’s Trust & Safety
team was contacted by the father of an 8-year-old juvenile regarding a criminal
investigation by the Royal Bahamas Police Force that contexts serious child sex
offenses against the man’s young daughter. The juvenile is the younger sister of a
22-year-old adult female ToddandClare.com user.
3.
Our understanding is that the RBPF Investigation (RBPF Reference: Sgt
Ferguson 1705 RBPF Thompson Boulevard) is being handled by a specialist child
protection unit of the Bahamas police authorities and relates to the child exploitation
of an 8-year-old juvenile in Nassau, Bahamas using electronic/internet methods;
prohibited use of an electronic communication system to procure a minor; child
pornography production; and the luring of a minor online for sex, by Mr Julian
Assange, who we understand has been identified from chatlogs.
4.
We understand the family involved are Canadian nationals, who were on
a month long yachting vacation through the Bahamas, and residing as guests of Mrs.
Mavis Darling-Hill, at the Darling-Hill’s poolside residence in the Blair Estates area
of Nassau, New Providence.
5.
The investigation specifically pertains to Mr Assange’s remote use of our
dating site, ToddandClare.com
6.
We understand the father was advised to contact Sgt Darrington Sands at
the local Fox Hill police station. We understand initial contact with law enforcement
was subsequently made with Sgt Symonatt for the Blair Estates area, at 10am, on
September 28, 2016, in which the father reported the pedophile crimes against his 8- year-old daughter.
7.
We understand the Fox Hill duty officer subsequently transferred the
family to urgently contact the Central Detective Unit of the Royal Bahamas Police
Force on Thompson Boulevard in Nassau.
8.
We understand the family proceeded to make a formal complaint to
Sergeant Ferguson at Thompson Boulevard on Wednesday, September 28, 2016 at
12.40pm, that their 8-year-old juvenile daughter was sexually molested online by
Julian Assange, through ToddandClare.com, and that Assange had been accessing
the site from London, UK.
9.
We understand Julian Assange was clearly photo- and video- identified in
the chatlogs by both the parents of the juvenile, and Mrs Darling-Hill, who is the
Bahamas Social Services worker involved.
10. We understand the chatlogs evidenced the 8-year-old juvenile was
unlawfully made the subject of “internet grooming” by Mr Assange, which included
propositioning the 8-year-old juvenile “to perform oral and anal sex acts”.
11. We understand the family reported to the Bahamas authorities that Mr
Assange sent the 8-year-old juvenile (i) unlawful, indecent images and video media
of himself performing lewd acts on a mobile camera device, and (ii) unlawful
obscenity materials of a child pornographic nature.
12. Neither the 22 year old female nor the 8-year old juvenile had physically
met offline with Mr Assange at any time.
13. The family has no connection to Sweden, the UK, or the United States,
and no connection with Julian Assange whatsoever. The family has made clear, at
this extraordinarily sensitive time, their only priority is their 8-year-old’s wellbeing.
14. These Royal Bahamas Police Force circumstances led to the immediate
termination of the agreement between ToddandClare.com and Julian Assange, and
forthwith, cancellation of all plans to film a video production for the KATIA Project
with Mr Assange, who both we and the KATIA Project have completely
disassociated from.
15. No other users of ToddandClare.com are involved
[lprent: There is a reason that this content has a link that is a google cache. The “member” has been delisted a few days after this document was created and uploaded as an attachment.
In my opinion, this particular document and the organisation is likely to be a false flag operation and if probably both false and defamatory. If you don’t think that it is, then email me. Otherwise anyone repeating is likely to receive an immediate permanent ban. ]
There’s more there about how they were working with Assange on their anti-rape message. Hard read. Pretty serious mistake them entering into an endorsement contract with Assange in the first place, but all kudos to them for now so meticulously documenting what happened.
I haven’t quite gotten my head around it all yet (e.g. what is meant by the UN support for Assange and why T&C fell out with the UN over that?), but mostly I’m just thinking here we go again, with all that entails.
It’s strange that the media haven’t picked this up given the first press release was Oct 11.
Mrs Darling-Hill is both the host of the family and the Bahama’s social services worker who’s involved, yes?
Chatlogs…those are historical, right?
Assuming the “we understand” in the documentation is all true and correct, I’m somewhat curious as to when and how any contact between Assange and the other website user (the 22 year old daughter) became chats and/or what not between Assange and her 8 year old sister.
8 year old has sister’s password? Older sister leaves the computer on and doesn’t log out?
I’m curious as to, assuming the documentation is true, Assange could do something so stupid given his tech expertise (and by stupid I’m not referring to the sexual abuse, that’s something else entirely. I’m referring to his use of ICT).
Yes i also followed up on Darling- hill she is the deputy director of social services in the bahamas govt. As well as the social worker involved as well as the host of the 8 year old (as well a patron of some local charities)
Question how does an 8 year old get access to adult only account of 22 year old? and who bears responsibility for that ?
Question did assange believe he was communicating with a 22 year old consenting female ?
One thing is sure this is serious abuse of the 8 year old girl but by whom?
I really do have an open mind but it looks just a bit too cute
In any case i can see why the Equadorians took his internet access away.. fair enough. What a dumb thing to do
“Question how does an 8 year old get access to adult only account of 22 year old? and who bears responsibility for that ?”
I think that’s a separate issue than Assange’s involvement or not in child abuse. Open internet is pretty ubiquitous, not for all children, but for enough.
I agree the question of whether Assange knew he was interacting with a child is important.
Rt Hon Justin Trudeau
Office of the Prime Minister of Canada
80 Wellington Street
Ottawa, ON K1A 0A2
Date: 10.17.2016
Sir,
We’re writing on behalf of ToddandClare.com, a dating site in Houston with a legal obligation to our female members. We are officially requesting your offices to intervene on behalf of a vulnerable Canadian family who are distraught and frightened. The family attended 2 police stations in Nassau, Bahamas, on September 28, 2016, to report to the Royal Bahamas Police Force (RBPF) that their 8 year old daughter had been abused by Julian Assange using our dating service.
The subsequent mishandling of the initial stages of the child sex investigation by the Royal Bahamas Police Force, and the way the RBPF have passed information ‘off the record’ to the UK tabloids, is of grave concern.
The family say that they experienced anti-Caucasian racism in Nassau.
They have told us they received unfavorable treatment by the RBPF on account of being white. They say that the Bahamas authorities were more interested in protecting the reputation of their island, and closing the case, than properly investigating their allegations of internet child abuse by Julian Assange, against a Canadian minor.
The family left the Bahamas, because they did not wish to subject their 8 year old to a continued nightmare and anti-white, racist abuse by Bahamian police. In addition to the clear racial problem, this investigation is particularly sensitive. The way the facts of the case pertain to the family’s eldest daughter, a 22 year old college woman who is the elder sister of the 8 year old child, and who Assange contacted the minor through, could have wider legal implications for the young woman.
Not only is Assange a rapist, that so many people are absolutely sure of after swallowing the Deep State smear campaign against him holus bolus, but now he’s been found a pedo too, which I reckon the same people have always suspected deep inside would be totally the case for an over-geeky internet type like Assange.
Talk about lefties swimming in an ocean of confirmation bias.
The web cache link seems pretty clear, but some of the other tellings of the story (T&C’s website, the DK story) are a bit ramble. DK is raising some initial questions.
Shows all the signs of being a spoof. From the protestations of the “organisation” to the way that it was associated to a “official” report pulled out of a cache for a deleted account.
I keep looking at it and it kind of makes sense but then it doesn’t. That no media have picked up says heaps. The inconsistency in clarity between the cached report and the post on the organisation’s website was the oddest thing, looks like they’re written by different organisations, one very professional, the other not.
Here is an interesting puzzle…. I have been emailing various RNZ presenters over the last 6 months with the following simple question…
Would asking Jonathon Colman whether he has Public or Private health care be considered an ad hominem question?
I had been in email exchanges with a couple of RNZ presenters prior to asking this question, then as soon as I asked the question I was completely closed down, very strange, not one response.
Bear in mind his explanation for an increase in violent crime…
Prime Minister John Key said the higher prisoner numbers reflected the changing nature of crime. “It’s a bit of an international trend: you saw overall crime rates falling internationally for a while and we were consistent with that, and they continue to fall in total numbers, but as I say, that hardened end [is] definitely going up a bit.”
“A shop-bought helium balloon kit was taken from 76-year-old Nelson woman Patsy McGrath, who has long campaigned for euthanasia, on Friday, the Voluntary Euthanasia Society says.”
So, was she turned in by a relative or friend determined to intervene in her plans, or are the Police using public profiles in a open legal process ie submission to the health committee, to make criminals of people who wish to control their own destinies.
surely the police have better things to do with their time than harrass a 76 year old woman?…are the Police being politicised?…in which case we have a Police State
I’ve been satisfied for quite some time now that a port visit by a US Navy vessel would not be in breach of our law (with the exception of aircraft carriers and submarines). Of course, I expect some people will take issue with US foreign policy and militarism, but this marks a diplomatic win for our longstanding anti-nuclear policy.
“Max and Stacy are joined by Joel Benjamin, local authority debt audit campaigner with Debt Resistance UK, and Nigel Henderson, who lost his hotel business to RBS’s restructuring division, to talk of the ‘stunned commoners’ in awe (at the brazenness) of the Royal… Bank of Scotland.
Nigel recounts his own encounter with RBS’s smash and grab unit which saw him lose his hotel in Scotland.
They discuss the tens of billions in fines the bank, taxpayer-owned RBS, faces from US authorities for the bank’s role in the mortgage backed securities fraud and whether or not there will be anything left for compensation of the thousands of small and medium sized enterprises destroyed in the UK.”
…and in retribution to RT? (banksters fight back)
‘Cancellation of RT UK’s bank account ‘crude British state propaganda’ – Galloway (VIDEO)’
@ Peter Swift …how about address the content of this?..it is a British story
…these are two Brits and two Americans, all well qualified, having a discussion about the practices of the ‘Royal Bank of Scotland’ which has destroyed thousands of small and medium sized enterprises in the UK
…do you these people are telling fibs ?…I don’t think so
I sometimes struggled and sometimes guffawed my way through that diatribe before hitting this clanger or alarm bell or whatever you might want to call it towards the very end.
Like the UN Working Group on Arbitrary Detention’s misguided support for a fugitive rapist,
A United Nations panel has decided that Julian Assange’s three-and-a-half years in the Ecuadorian embassy amount to “arbitrary detention”, leading his lawyers to call for the Swedish extradition request to be dropped immediately.
A Swedish foreign ministry spokeswoman confirmed that the UN panel, due to publish its findings on Friday, had concluded that Assange was “arbitrarily detained”.
The WikiLeaks founder sought asylum from Ecuador in June 2012 to avoid extradition to Sweden to face questioning over rape and sexual assault allegations, which he denies.
The panel’s findings were disclosed to the Swedish and British governments on 22 January, and will be published on Friday morning. Their judgment is not legally binding but can be used to apply pressure on states in human rights cases.
[In order to keep OM and DR free for other conversations, all comments, link postings etc about the US election now need to go in the dedicated US election discussion here.
If you are unsure, post in that thread rather than here. It’s not possible for moderators to shift posts from OM to there, so any comments here may get deleted – weka]
[now you know the moderators’ super powers, ha ha. (trying to keep this comment highlighted at the bottom so people coming in off the comments list see it) – weka]
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The 53.7 percent rise in benefit sanctions over the last year is more proof of this Government’s disdain for our communities most in need of support. ...
Aotearoa could be a country where every child grows up feeling safe, loved and with a sense of belonging in their whānau and community. But for some of our children, this is far from reality. Instead, they are trapped in a maze of intergenerational harm that they can’t escape on ...
Te Pāti Māori are calling for David Seymour to resign as Associate Health Minister in response to his call for Pharmac to ignore the Treaty of Waitangi. “This announcement is just another example of the government’s anti-Tiriti, anti-Māori agenda.” Said Co-leader and spokesperson for health, Debbie Ngarewa-Packer. “Seymour thinks it ...
The soaring price of renting is driving the rise of inflation in this country - with latest figures from Stats NZ showing rents are up 4.8 per cent on average while annual inflation is at 3.3 per cent. ...
National’s Emissions Reduction Plan will take New Zealand further from the economy we need to ensure the next generation has a stable climate and secure livelihoods. ...
Following consultation with named parties and thorough consideration of privacy interests, the Green Party is in a position to release the Executive Summary of the final report from the independent investigation into Darleen Tana. ...
Prime Minister Christopher Luxon should be asking serious questions of his Minister for Resources Shane Jones now it’s been revealed he misled the public about a dinner with mining companies that he didn’t declare and said wasn’t pre-arranged. ...
Te Pāti Māori have submitted to the Justice Select Committee against the Sentencing (Reinstating Three Strikes) Amendment Bill. The bill will further entrench racism in our justice system and fails to focus on rehabilitation. “Reinstating Three Strikes will empower a systematically racist system and exacerbate the overrepresentation of Māori in ...
The Transport and Infrastructure Committee is set to make a determination on the Residential Tenancies Amendment (RTA) Bill in the coming weeks. “This legislation will give landlords the power to kick our whānau out onto the street for no reason” said Housing spokesperson, Mariameno Kapa-Kingi. “Their solution to the housing ...
“National’s campaign was about tackling crime and the best they can do is a two-year long Ministerial Advisory Group,” Labour justice spokesperson Duncan Webb said. ...
“There are more examples of charter schools failing their students than there are success stories. The coalition Government is driving to dismantle our public school system and instead promote a privatised, competitive structure that puts profits before kids,” Jan Tinetti said. ...
“This government is choosing to deliberately mislead and withhold information, keeping our people in the dark about this government’s agenda and the future of our mokopuna,” said co-leader and spokesperson for Health, Debbie Ngarewa-Packer. The call comes after the demand from the Chief Ombudsman that Associate Minister of Health, Casey ...
“Today’s climate announcement by Simon Watts makes clear the National Government is simply paying lip service to meeting its climate change targets,” Megan Woods said. ...
National is choosing to make life harder for workers by taking away the rights our communities have fought hard for. Here's how they’re taking workers backwards. ...
Australia, Canada and New Zealand today issued the following statement on the need for an urgent ceasefire in Gaza and the risk of expanded conflict between Hizballah and Israel. The situation in Gaza is catastrophic. The human suffering is unacceptable. It cannot continue. We remain unequivocal in our condemnation of ...
Attorney-General Judith Collins today reminded all State and faith-based institutions of their legal obligation to preserve records relevant to the safety and wellbeing of those in its care. “The Abuse in Care Inquiry’s report has found cases where records of the most vulnerable people in State and faith‑based institutions were ...
Minister of Internal Affairs Brooke van Velden says the Government’s online safety website for children and young people has reached one million page views. “It is great to see so many young people and their families accessing the site Keep It Real Online to learn how to stay safe online, and manage ...
Tēnā tātou katoa, Ngā mihi te rangi, ngā mihi te whenua, ngā mihi ki a koutou, kia ora mai koutou. Thank you for the opportunity to be here and the invitation to speak at this 50th anniversary conference. I acknowledge all those who have gone before us and paved the ...
New Zealand’s payroll providers have successfully prepared to ensure 3.5 million individuals will, from Wednesday next week, be able to keep more of what they earn each pay, says Finance Minister Nicola Willis and Revenue Minister Simon Watts. “The Government's tax policy changes are legally effective from Wednesday. Delivering this tax ...
An experimental vineyard which will help futureproof the wine sector has been opened in Blenheim by Associate Regional Development Minister Mark Patterson. The covered vineyard, based at the New Zealand Wine Centre – Te Pokapū Wāina o Aotearoa, enables controlled environmental conditions. “The research that will be produced at the Experimental ...
The Coalition Government has confirmed the indicative regional breakdown of North Island Weather Event (NIWE) funding for state highway recovery projects funded through Budget 2024, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says. “Regions in the North Island suffered extensive and devastating damage from Cyclone Gabrielle and the 2023 Auckland Anniversary Floods, and ...
Indonesia’s Foreign Minister, Retno Marsudi, will visit New Zealand next week, Foreign Minister Winston Peters has announced. “Indonesia is important to New Zealand’s security and economic interests and is our closest South East Asian neighbour,” says Mr Peters, who is currently in Laos to engage with South East Asian partners. ...
He aha te kai a te rangatira? He kōrero, he kōrero, he kōrero. The government has reaffirmed its commitment to supporting the aspirations of Ngāti Maniapoto, Minister for Māori Development Tama Potaka says. “My thanks to Te Nehenehenui Trust – Ngāti Maniapoto for bringing their important kōrero to a ministerial ...
Transport Minister Simeon Brown has thanked outgoing Chair of the Civil Aviation Authority, Janice Fredric, for her service to the board.“I have received Ms Fredric’s resignation from the role of Chair of the Civil Aviation Authority,” Mr Brown says.“On behalf of the Government, I want to thank Ms Fredric for ...
The Government is proposing legislation to overturn a Court of Appeal decision and amend the Marine and Coastal Area Act in order to restore Parliament’s test for Customary Marine Title, Treaty Negotiations Minister Paul Goldsmith says. “Section 58 required an applicant group to prove they have exclusively used and occupied ...
Regulation Minister David Seymour says that opposition parties have united in bad faith, opposing what they claim are ‘dangerous changes’ to the Early Childhood Education sector, despite no changes even being proposed yet. “Issues with affordability and availability of early childhood education, and the complexity of its regulation, has led ...
After receiving more than 740 submissions in the first 20 days, Regulation Minister David Seymour is asking the Ministry for Regulation to extend engagement on the early childhood education regulation review by an extra two weeks. “The level of interest has been very high, and from the conversations I’ve been ...
The Coalition Government is investing $802.9 million into the Wairarapa and Manawatū rail lines as part of a funding agreement with the NZ Transport Agency (NZTA), KiwiRail, and the Greater Wellington and Horizons Regional Councils to deliver more reliable services for commuters in the lower North Island, Transport Minister Simeon ...
Local Government Minister Simeon Brown has announced his intention to appoint a Crown Manager to both Hawke’s Bay Regional and Wairoa District Councils to speed up the delivery of flood protection work in Wairoa."Recent severe weather events in Wairoa this year, combined with damage from Cyclone Gabrielle in 2023 have ...
Mr Speaker, this is a day that many New Zealanders who were abused in State care never thought would come. It’s the day that this Parliament accepts, with deep sorrow and regret, the Report of the Royal Commission of Inquiry into Abuse in Care. At the heart of this report are the ...
For the first time, the Government is formally acknowledging some children and young people at Lake Alice Psychiatric Hospital experienced torture. The final report of the Royal Commission of Inquiry into Abuse in State and Faith-based Care “Whanaketia – through pain and trauma, from darkness to light,” was tabled in Parliament ...
The Government has acknowledged the nearly 2,400 courageous survivors who shared their experiences during the Royal Commission of Inquiry into Historical Abuse in State and Faith-Based Care. The final report from the largest and most complex public inquiry ever held in New Zealand, the Royal Commission Inquiry “Whanaketia – through ...
With a week to go before hard-working New Zealanders see personal income tax relief for the first time in fourteen years, 513,000 people have used the Budget tax calculator to see how much they will benefit, says Finance Minister Nicola Willis. “Tax relief is long overdue. From next Wednesday, personal income ...
Workplace Relations and Safety Minister Brooke van Velden says a bill that has passed its first reading will improve parental leave settings and give non-biological parents more flexibility as primary carer for their child. The Regulatory Systems Amendment Bill (No3), passed its first reading this morning. “It includes a change ...
Two Bills designed to improve regulation and make it easier to do business have passed their first reading in Parliament, says Economic Development Minister Melissa Lee. The Regulatory Systems (Economic Development) Amendment Bill and Regulatory Systems (Immigration and Workforce) Amendment Bill make key changes to legislation administered by the Ministry ...
New legislation paves the way for greater competition in sectors such as banking and electricity, Commerce and Consumer Affairs Minister Andrew Bayly says. “Competitive markets boost productivity, create employment opportunities and lift living standards. To support competition, we need good quality regulation but, unfortunately, a recent OECD report ranked New ...
Minister of Internal Affairs Brooke van Velden says lotteries for charitable purposes, such as those run by the Heart Foundation, Coastguard NZ, and local hospices, will soon be allowed to operate online permanently. “Under current laws, these fundraising lotteries are only allowed to operate online until October 2024, after which ...
The Coalition Government is accelerating work on the new four-lane expressway between Auckland and Whangārei as part of its Roads of National Significance programme, with an accelerated delivery model to deliver this project faster and more efficiently, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says. “For too long, the lack of resilient transport connections ...
Sir Don McKinnon will travel to Viet Nam this week as a Special Envoy of the Government, Foreign Minister Winston Peters has announced. “It is important that the Government give due recognition to the significant contributions that General Secretary Nguyen Phu Trong made to New Zealand-Viet Nam relations,” Mr ...
Minister of Internal Affairs Brooke van Velden says newly appointed Commissioner, Grant Illingworth KC, will help deliver the report for the first phase of the Royal Commission of Inquiry into COVID-19 Lessons, due on 28 November 2024. “I am pleased to announce that Mr Illingworth will commence his appointment as ...
Foreign Minister Winston Peters travels to Laos this week to participate in a series of Association of Southeast Asian Nations (ASEAN)-led Ministerial meetings in Vientiane. “ASEAN plays an important role in supporting a peaceful, stable and prosperous Indo-Pacific,” Mr Peters says. “This will be our third visit to ...
Construction of a new mental health facility at Te Nikau Grey Hospital in Greymouth is today one step closer, Mental Health Minister Matt Doocey says. “This $27 million facility shows this Government is delivering on its promise to boost mental health care and improve front line services,” Mr Doocey says. ...
New Zealand is committing nearly $50 million to a package supporting sustainable Pacific fisheries development over the next four years, Foreign Minister Winston Peters and Oceans and Fisheries Minister Shane Jones announced today. “This support consisting of a range of initiatives demonstrates New Zealand’s commitment to assisting our Pacific partners ...
Associate Education Minister David Seymour says proposed changes to the Education and Training Amendment Bill will ensure charter schools have more flexibility to negotiate employment agreements and are equipped with the right teaching resources. “Cabinet has agreed to progress an amendment which means unions will not be able to initiate ...
In response to serious concerns around oversight, overspend and a significant deterioration in financial outlook, the Board of Health New Zealand will be replaced with a Commissioner, Health Minister Dr Shane Reti announced today. “The previous government’s botched health reforms have created significant financial challenges at Health NZ that, without ...
Minister for Space and Science, Innovation and Technology Judith Collins will travel to Adelaide tomorrow for space and science engagements, including speaking at the Australian Space Forum. While there she will also have meetings and visits with a focus on space, biotechnology and innovation. “New Zealand has a thriving space ...
Climate Change Minister Simon Watts will travel to China on Saturday to attend the Ministerial on Climate Action meeting held in Wuhan. “Attending the Ministerial on Climate Action is an opportunity to advocate for New Zealand climate priorities and engage with our key partners on climate action,” Mr Watts says. ...
Oceans and Fisheries Minister Shane Jones is travelling to the Solomon Islands tomorrow for meetings with his counterparts from around the Pacific supporting collective management of the region’s fisheries. The 23rd Pacific Islands Forum Fisheries Committee and the 5th Regional Fisheries Ministers’ Meeting in Honiara from 23 to 26 July ...
The Government today launched the Military Style Academy Pilot at Te Au rere a te Tonga Youth Justice residence in Palmerston North, an important part of the Government’s plan to crackdown on youth crime and getting youth offenders back on track, Minister for Children, Karen Chhour said today. “On the ...
The Government has welcomed news the NZ Transport Agency (NZTA) has begun work to replace nine priority bridges across the country to ensure our state highway network remains resilient, reliable, and efficient for road users, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says.“Increasing productivity and economic growth is a key priority for the ...
Acting Prime Minister David Seymour has been in contact throughout the evening with senior officials who have coordinated a whole of government response to the global IT outage and can provide an update. The Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet has designated the National Emergency Management Agency as the ...
New Zealand and Japan will continue to step up their shared engagement with the Pacific, Foreign Minister Winston Peters says. “New Zealand and Japan have a strong, shared interest in a free, open and stable Pacific Islands region,” Mr Peters says. “We are pleased to be finding more ways ...
New developments in the heart of North Island forestry country will reinvigorate their communities and boost economic development, Regional Development Minister Shane Jones says. Mr Jones visited Kaingaroa and Kawerau in Bay of Plenty today to open a landmark community centre in the former and a new connecting road in ...
President Adeang, fellow Ministers, honourable Diet Member Horii, Ambassadors, distinguished guests. Minasama, konnichiwa, and good afternoon, everyone. Distinguished guests, it’s a pleasure to be here with you today to talk about New Zealand’s foreign policy reset, the reasons for it, the values that underpin it, and how it ...
Christopher Luxon: hurdles The little man from National jumps hurdles in his sleep. He’s quite good at it in his dreams and even though the reality doesn’t quite match up you have to give him credit for getting up every morning and crashing into the very first hurdle of the ...
Comment: It was a good two hours into the conversation when Tyrone Marks raised the most basic of questions when I first spoke to him in 2017. “They didn’t explain the things they did to me. They never told me why. And they still haven’t. There’s no explanation for it. ...
Last summer when Matairangi burned, Ginny and Tom stood at the window of their lounge, watching kākā shoot skyward from the burning trees. From the distance, they looked to Ginny like pages torn from books and thrown into a bonfire. It was Tom, voice tight, who told her it was ...
Opinion: The Canadian short story writer Alice Munro – winner of the Nobel Prize in Literature in 2013 – died in May at the age of 92. Her work was about “the damage people inflict on one another in the name of love”, Deborah Treisman wrote in the New Yorker. ...
This month marks two years since the most powerful telescope ever built sent its first pictures back to earth. From its lofty vantage point, beyond the moon in orbit around the sun, the James Webb Space Telescope was tuned to observe the first stars and galaxies being born soon after ...
Comment: After Climate Change Minister Simon Watts’ preview several weeks ago, I had some optimism about the Government’s emissions reduction plan. Now I’ve read the discussion document, that hope has been dashed. How can the Government propose a plan that wants to take New Zealand taxpayers’ hard-earned money, and spend ...
Madeleine Chapman rounds out Death Week on The Spinoff with a final recommendation. You can read all of our Death Week coverage here. Nothing forces you to reflect on your life and relationships quite like proximity to death. For those whose nearest and dearest have died, there are reasonably obvious ...
Whitney Greene takes us through her life in television, including the TV character she’d like to plan a funeral for and her cow lung catastrophe on The Traitors NZ. “If the phone rings, I have to answer it,” Whitney Greene from The Traitors NZ warns as we begin our My ...
Maddie Ballard reviews the debut essay collection of Pōneke writer Flora Feltham.In ‘The Raw Material’, the longest essay in Flora Feltham’s dazzling debut collection, the author heads out for a run after hours of weaving and sees the world turn to textile. “Pounding along the Parade, I saw the ...
Andy Christiansen, one half of the experimental rock-pop duo TRiPS, shares the tunes inspiring the band’s perfect weekend and new release. “Good speakers, good food, good music, no distractions”: that’s all you need to enjoy the psychedelic stylings of TRiPS, a new band formed by Fly My Pretties’ Barnaby Weir ...
Celebrating our quadrennial opportunity to become experts in a bunch of sports we never normally watch.The games of the XXXIII Olympiad are upon us. Paris will host this year’s showcase of sporting and athletic prowess, which means some late-night and early-morning viewing for us in Aotearoa.But what sports ...
The photograph is striking and beautiful, but also disturbing – a reminder that my love for John was often entangled in shame.The Sunday Essay is made possible thanks to the support of Creative New Zealand.In the spring of 1980, in Dunedin, shortly before his death, someone took a photograph ...
Get to know Babushka, our latest Dog of the Month. This feature was offered as a reward during our What’s Eating Aotearoa PledgeMe campaign. Thank you to Babu’s humans, Jo and Isabel, for their support. Dog name: Babushka (Babu for short) Age: 2Breed: Border Collie X poodleIf rescued, ...
Pacific Media Watch A Lebanese photojournalist who was severely wounded during an Israeli air strike in south Lebanon carried the Olympic torch in Paris this week in honour of her peers who have been wounded and killed in the field — especially in Gaza and Lebanon. Christina Assi of Agence ...
The first report in a five-part web series focused on the 15th Triennial Conference of Pacific Women taking place in the Marshall Islands this week.SPECIAL REPORT:By Netani Rika in Majuro Women continue to fight for justice 70 years after the first nuclear tests by the United States caused ...
Christopher Luxon has joined with Australia and Canada's leaders in voicing support for US President Joe Biden's ceasefire deal between Israel and Hamas. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Michelle Grattan, Professorial Fellow, University of Canberra The 2022 election brought the “teal wave” into parliament. The next election will test whether teals, who occupy what were Liberal seats, and other independents can maintain their momentum. Joining us on the Podcast ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Ian Musgrave, Senior lecturer in Pharmacology, University of Adelaide Pixavri/Shutterstock A major Federal Court class action has been dismissed this week after Justice Michael Lee ruled there was not enough evidence to prove the weedkiller Roundup causes cancer. Plaintiff Kelvin ...
In The Week in Politics: politicians have to decide what to do about child abuse, Health NZ is booked in for major surgery and Darleen Tana returns. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Clare Corbould, Associate Professor, Contemporary Histories Research Group, Deakin University Mainstream media are surprisingly muted at the prospect of the world’s most powerful nation being led for the first time by a woman – specifically a woman of colour, Vice President Kamala ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Rebecca Bennett, PhD Student, Associate Research Fellow, Deakin University Last week, a drone delivery company called Wing (owned by Google’s parent company, Alphabet) started operating in Melbourne. Some 250,000 residents in parts of the city’s eastern suburbs can now order food from ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Jonathan Foo, Lecturer, Physiotherapy, Monash University pikselstock/Shutterstock In the next 40 years in Australia, it’s predicted the number of Australians aged 65 and over will more than double, while the number of people aged 85 and over will more than triple. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Katrina Grant, Research Associate, Power Institute for Arts and Visual Culture, University of Sydney Jonas Åkerström’s 1790 work, Session of the Accademia dell’Arcadia on August 17 1788.Nationalmuseum/Cecilia Heisser Ever wondered whether you’d have a better chance at winning an Olympic gold ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Alexandra Jones, Program Lead, Food Governance, George Institute for Global Health wavebreakmedia/Shutterstock On Thursday, Australian and New Zealand food ministers at state, federal and national levels met to thrash out what’s next for health star ratings on packaged foods. Now, after ...
The Abuse in Care report found many Pacific survivors lost their connections to their culture and language, resulting in trauma that has been carried from generation to generation. ...
In the regulatory review, ECC intends to suggest that ERO focus on curriculum delivery reviews rather than the Ministry, because it’s not efficient or effective to have two agencies with radically different approaches climbing over each other. ...
Te Rūnanga Nui o Ngā Kura Kaupapa Māori invites the current government to work in partnership with them to develop a pathway forward, including the development of a parallel pathway and meaningful policy and strategy for Kura Kaupapa Māori ...
If you haven’t started watching yet, Tara Ward begs you to reconsider. This is an excerpt from our weekly pop culture newsletter Rec Room. Sign up here. In the world of New Zealand reality television, we have many gems in our crown. There’s the delicious second season of the Celebrity Treasure ...
A new poem by Fiona Kidman. The clothes of the dead I did not keep my mother’s furry red beret for long nor the stringy scarves that adorned the necks of my aunts, although I have kept tag ends of gold, the rings and trinkets they wore, the brooches no ...
The government’s announcement that it will re-open the foreshore and seabed controversy by changing the rules on recognising centuries-old Māori customary title for a third time goes against the rule of law and New Zealand values,” Mr Tipa says. ...
The only published and available best-selling indie book chart in New Zealand is the top 10 sales list recorded every week at Unity Books’ stores in High St, Auckland, and Willis St, Wellington.AUCKLAND1 Lioness by Emily Perkins (Bloomsbury, $25) Roarrrr! Perkins’ brilliant, award-winning, Marian-Keyes anointed, darkly funny, long ...
The 2004 Act vested ownership of the foreshore and seabed in the Crown, extinguishing any Māori claims to ownership and causing widespread outrage and protests among Māori communities. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Antje Deckert, Associate Professor (Criminology), Auckland University of Technology Getty Images Despite the connection between institutional harm and gang membership made clear in this week’s mammoth royal commission abuse-in care report, the government seems unlikely to soften its “get tough on ...
From Lewis Clareburt in the swimming to the start of the rowing – the first seven days of Paris 2024 promise to be big for New Zealand. There are few events that bring the country together quite like an Olympic Games. Nothing quite matches the excitement of getting up in ...
Groundbreaking local science just showed up in the most surprising of places: the season finale of The Kardashians. In the season five finale of The Kardashians last night, several members of the family gathered together in one of their signature empty, cream-coloured rooms to hear test results that had been ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Amin Saikal, Emeritus professor of Middle Eastern and Central Asian Studies, Australian National University The Middle East is on the brink of a possibly devastating regional war, with hostilities between Israel and Hezbollah reaching an extremely dangerous level. Washington has engaged in ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Laura Elizabeth Eades, Rheumatologist, Monash University Lupus is an inflammatory autoimmune illness, where the body’s immune system mistakenly attacks itself. Lupus can affect virtually any part of the body, although it most commonly affects the skin, joints and kidneys. The symptoms ...
A law firm that specialises in working with survivors of abuse in State care is disappointed that the Government fails to recognise that its boot camps can be directly compared to previous boot camps from the 1990s and 2000s. ...
Dying is a natural part of life, like updating your Wof or seeing your hairdresser, but without the word-of-mouth recs that help guarantee a good service. What if we changed that? Dying Reviews received by The Spinoff have had the names of organisations redacted while Hospice NZ collects further data. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Jonti Horner, Professor (Astrophysics), University of Southern Queensland Mike Lewinski/Flickr, CC BY On any clear night, if you gaze skywards long enough, chances are you’ll see a meteor streaking through the sky. Some nights, however, are better than others. At ...
Despite having no bars or other designated spaces for lesbians, Auckland boasts a small but mighty lesbian museum. So how did it get here? The past 18 months has brought increasing hostility towards the queer community across Aotearoa. Kellie-Jay Keen-Minshull’s anti-trans rally in Tamaki Makaurau last March led to a ...
Poneke Antifascist Coalition has invited Wellingtonians to stand in solidarity with the Kanak people at 12pm today outside the French Embassy in Wellington. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Peter Layton, Visiting Fellow, Strategic Studies, Griffith University Drones are the signature technology of the Ukraine war. A few miniature aircraft designs were used in the war’s early days, but an incredible array of drones have now evolved. There are different types, ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Mark Slee, Associate Professor, Clinical Academic Neurologist, Flinders University Francisco Gonzelez/Unsplash Migraine is many things, but one thing it’s not is “just a headache”. “Migraine” comes from the Greek word “hemicrania”, referring to the common experience of migraine being predominantly ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Lee White, Senior Lecturer and Horizon Fellow, School of Social and Political Sciences, University of Sydney Australia was slow to introduce minimum building standards for energy efficiency. The Nationwide House Energy Rating Scheme (NatHERS) only came into force in 2003. Older homes ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Steven Sherwood, Professor of Atmospheric Sciences, Climate Change Research Centre, UNSW Sydney The past century of human-induced warming has increased rainfall variability over 75% of the Earth’s land area – particularly over Australia, Europe and eastern North America, new research shows. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Tony Heynen, Program Coordinator, Sustainable Energy, The University of Queensland A temporary stadium in the Champ-de-Mars, ParisEkaterina Pokrovsky/Shutterstock As Paris prepares to host the Olympic and Paralympic Games, the sustainability of the event is coming under scrutiny. The organisers have promoted ...
A night of karaoke and community in a pub that feels like a memory. You’d barely even notice it, unless you knew to look. Tucked away behind a liquor store on busy Constable Street is the capital’s last great pub. Newtown Sports Bar is an emblem of the pub culture ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Ian Wright, Professor in Marine Geology, University of Canterbury Louise Corcoran/Getty Images The decline in the number of doctoral candidates at New Zealand universities is a worrying sign for the country’s effort to build a knowledge-based economy. Aotearoa New Zealand’s ...
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Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Vaughan Cruickshank, Senior Lecturer in Health and Physical Education, University of Tasmania Paris is about to host its third summer Olympics. While we don’t yet know what the legacy of this year’s games will be, let’s take the opportunity to reflect on ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Hugh Breakey, Deputy Director, Institute for Ethics, Governance & Law, Griffith University In the wake of the assassination attempt on former US President Donald Trump, there were calls from bothsides of US politics, as well as internationally, to reduce the brutal, ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Keith Rathbone, Senior Lecturer, Modern European History and Sports History, Macquarie University Two high-profile assaults on Australians in Paris have raised concerns about security ahead of the Olympic Games. On Saturday evening, a young woman was allegedly sexually assaulted by a ...
Dying is inevitable and, so it seems, is it costing a lot, writes Stewart Sowman-Lund in today’s extract from The Bulletin. To receive The Bulletin in full each weekday, sign up here.The cost of dying ...
The government took Joyce Harris's first baby and sent her off to a girls' home. Half a century on - and out of oceans of hurt - it asked her to be a mother figure. ...
It’s the deadliest fictional town in the country, but which death has been the most bonkers? Alex Casey looks back at 10 seasons of The Brokenwood Mysteries to find out. Warning: The following ranking story contains famous New Zealand actors appearing to be dead (not alive). The Spinoff has been ...
Water cremation is the biggest thing to happen to the death industry in the last 100 years. Alex Casey meets the people trying to bring it to Aotearoa. Through a set of mirrored doors down the industrial end of Christchurch’s St Asaph Street, death is getting a new lease on ...
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[Please note, we are trialling something new for Open Mike and Daily Review.
In order to keep OM and DR free for other conversations, all comments, link postings etc about the US election now need to go in the dedicated US election discussion here.
If you are unsure, post in that thread rather than here. It’s not possible for moderators to shift posts from OM to there, so any comments here may get deleted.
Have fun folks – weka]
Thank you.
Good idea.
Nice one.
*hugs*
Really?
I thought the war on P was going so well, but vigilantes do it better than the law?
beats funding the police i guess
Is this our brighter future, where the PM underfunds the police and supports gangs riding rough shod?
They’ll probably get the contract for the new prisons , can’t be much worse than serco.
He’s a populist. Any bandwagon that looks as though it’s likely to generate both a following and positive press coverage, and you’ll find Key clinging to the side of it like a fucking barnacle. He’s utterly shameless.
Recall his ‘war on P’ comments…..reality is the nats have enabled this to grow due to their police resourcing.
And now they’re spending another billion on prisons. Such a success story.
A shame, should be on hospitals, at the current rate of knots that’s where this will end up, if not the morgue.
On Friday evening, when Pink’s deadline passed, the main street of the town was quiet. Behind the scenes, it was anything but
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/85386340/tribal-huk-clears-ngaruawahia-of-p-dealers-as-promised
Bravo to the Tribal Huk and the community supporting their views to keep their town free from P.
Do you support the alleged manhandling and assault of alleged P dealers?
hi all,
i am thinking of having a chat to some young teenage boys about consent.
i am wanting to pick brains of fellow standardistas for ideas/analagies.
i have heard the cup of tea analogy, and would like to see if that can be fleshed out, added to, or another way of discussing this altogether.
personally the idea of acting against someones wishes is abhorent to me.
i contrast my upbringing: loving parents, decent solid father, pornography was a well leafed magazine in a mates brothers bedroom, alcohol was something that was consumed responsibly.
fully 3/4s of these young men lack a father in the house and a significant number of them, the male is a figure of conflict. (custody battles, communication etc)
as for pornography, there is no comparison to yesty year.
thanks in advance.
gsays, great to hear you doing this, all power to you. I hope you get some genuine replies.
Sounds like those boys need more men in their lives, not less, as seems to have been advocated by many in that other post on being a bitch
[I haven’t seen anyone on that thread say that. Another moderator has set your comments to go into moderation for approval, so maybe be a bit more careful – weka]
You can always tell when dealing with bullies – they hate their own medicine
There are many posts in there on how the world might be a better place without men i.e. no wars.
[I have enough on my plate today without having to moderate you telling lies. Take the day off – weka]
I suppose it depends on the context (and make sure you run it by the parents/caregivers first, otherwise you risk just being a weirdo talking about sex to teens 🙂 ).
Thinking back on myself at that age, and what seems to work for my younger relatives, maybe the mind/body duality thing? Not to get carried away by anger/love/whatever, but to stop and say “am I being smart about this?”. That and “look at all blacks – being dumb off the field can still fuck up your career and life”.
Oh, and the difference between love and infatuation: love is when you know everything about the other person, infatuation is when you know nothing about them but assume they fit your desires.
cheers for your consideration mcf,
i am anticipating keeping away from sex and focus on what values consent includes, respect, empathy, boundaries.
reinforce the importance of consent as a foundation of character.
According to The New Zealand Initiative there is no rise in income inequality. That is if you conveniently ignore that a rise in the value of houses is income for home-owners.
It’s odd to me anyway that a rise in net worth is not classed as a rise in income according to the New Zealand Initiative.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11730940
I appreciate that you have acknowledged that there is a distinction between capital and income. In my view they are not the same, a capital gain is not simply income in another form.
Income usually produces an actual cash amount each week, month or quarter.
A capital gain is not realisable until the capital asset is sold. Even then it may be illusory. For instance most NZ’ers have the bulk of their capital in their house. Selling and buying on the same market simply means a different house, not any cash. However, I do appreciate that the large increase in Auckland property prices has given people to opportunity to buy cheaper elsewhere and release quite a large amount of cash.
As far as I understand the data, there has been no real change in income distribution in New Zealand over the last twenty year. By that I mean wages, salaries, business income and interest and dividends.
What has occurred, largely as a result of land inflation and stock market increases in the last five years, is an increase in wealth disparity. Around 30% of people rent rather than own, and by and large they have less wealth as proportion of the national wealth than 15 years ago.
I also suspect that some suburbs in Auckland, typically wealthy ones, have had a larger percentage value increase than some less wealthy suburbs. And there is no doubt people have used their increased equity to support investment expenditure, even it is often home improvements, and also helping their children buy a house/apartment. Going around Devonport or Herne Bay, virtually every house has been expensively refurbished in the last fifteen years, and these suburbs have become $2 million average house price suburbs.
Well that’s nice. I guess we just tell the increasing numbers of people begging on the streets that it’s always been like this. Same goes for those school kids who don’t have any lunch or are lucky enough to have a charity come to school and feed them. It’s ok kids it’s always been like this. And those growing encampments of “motorhomes” on the streets, yeah they’ve been there since like the mid 90s. No worries mate.
Is John Key simply lying about meth use in this country? He claims it is dropping but everyone else says it is rising.
Given Key’s track record on lying about crime stats I tend to believe everyone else on this one.
http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/315882/drug-clinics-reject-govt-claims-p-use-is-dropping
Risen as predicted by senior narcs officers due to their dispropportinate focus on that evil weed which saw a few leave in frustration.
BS as usual from the liar in chief with his convenient crime stats….collins grin widens.
Important points raised by Keith Locke
http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2016/10/18/must-read-bill-opens-door-to-extensive-gcsb-surveillance-of-new-zealanders/#comment-356501
Helen Kelly got it right
says Bryan Gould.
+1 – Yep Kindness one of most under rated attributes.
Thank you Anne. Invaluable.
“Kindness is not only the key to our happiness and success as a species but to our very survival as well.”
the Empire Strikes Back: RT (UK) bank accounts to be all shut down – no reason given, no discussions to be entered into
https://www.rt.com/news/363013-rt-uk-accounts-blocked/
At the same time they have cut Julian Assange’s internet connection in the Ecuadorean Embassy (UK) to the outside world.
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/10/wikileaks-assange-internet-severed-state-actor-161017101111181.html
And lastly, a senior and very respected leader of the rebel military forces in the Donbass has been assassinated by an IED at his family home.
Expect things to turn very nasty in Ukraine very shortly.
http://www.fort-russ.com/2016/10/assassination-of-motorola-last-straw.html
+1 CV Shocking Journalistic censorship.
And this is pretty shocking too…
It recently emerged that Hillary Clinton reportedly wanted to “drone” Assange when she was the US secretary of state.
Hillary Clinton on Assange “Can’t we just drone this guy” — report https://t.co/S7tPrl2QCZ pic.twitter.com/qy2EQBa48y
— WikiLeaks (@wikileaks) October 3, 2016
That’s gold. If I was US Secretary of State, every problem would get an initial “Can’t we just drone this guy?” Also, maybe some quotes from Archer.
At the same time they have cut Julian Assange’s internet connection in the Ecuadorean Embassy (UK) to the outside world.
NatWest bank is in charge of internet connections to the Ecuadorean embassy? That’s pretty awesome diversification.
And lastly, a senior and very respected leader of the rebel military forces in the Donbass has been assassinated by an IED at his family home.
Or to put it another way, a local warlord well known for killing prisoners annoyed one person too many and got his beans. The guy was a Russian who got his combat experience in the suppression of colonial uprisings in Chechnya and went to the Ukraine so he could kill Ukrainians, quite likely at the behest of the Russian government. I thought you were against foreign fighters and mercenaries attacking sovereign countries?
Hi PM, always good of you to reveal more and more about your personality.
War criminal gets his.
Motorola and his battalion are also accused of torturing captured Ukrainian soldiers. After Ukrainian soldier Ihor Branovytsky had been captured near Donetsk and was in custody of Pavlov’s group, Pavlov is alleged to have deliberately killed the prisoner on 21 January 2015 with two headshots
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arsen_Pavlov
https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:TN2y62U9b3kJ:https://www.amnesty.org/download/Documents/EUR5016832015ENGLISH.pdf+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=nz&client=firefox-b
Worth a read to know what’s going on.
https://intercontinentalcry.org/15-indigenous-struggles-need-know/
good read. And that’s just in the Americas.
That photo of the man whose village has just been burnt is very moving.
Oh lookie 1Billion for the homeless!!!!
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/85448143/government-to-spend-1b-to-sleep-1800-more-prisoners
Lock ’em up! Lock ’em all up!
Frank admission from Collins that the current government social and economic policies are producing more serious offenders.
Also, she calls 1800 new prisoners “an investment”.
http://www.newshub.co.nz/politics/government-approves-1800-new-prison-beds-2016101809
well in a world where prisons are profit centres creating new prisoners is indeed an investment.
Vigilantism and intolerance on the rise….
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/oct/17/thai-woman-accused-of-insulting-late-king-bhumibol-adulyadej-forced-to-kneel-koh-samui
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/oct/17/duterte-says-children-killed-in-philippines-drug-war-are-collateral-damage
http://www.alternet.org/world/india-cusp-between-modernity-and-madness-beef-ban-vigilantism
Think we are immune?..
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/85386340/tribal-huk-clears-ngaruawahia-of-p-dealers-as-promised
Slippery slope.
I don’t have too much of a problem with that last article, on the face of it at least. If people from that community can deal with the problem when the police and justice system can’t, then that seems an appropriate interim measure. If we lived in a sane society, local authorities and NGOs would start working with the gang to support them in their more social justice work e.g. the feeding kids thing.
Comments under that article are interesting too.
it is not a giant stride from Tribal Huk to Duterte …
http://www.stuff.co.nz/manawatu-standard/news/85201396/Skeletal-remains-found-in-gang-member-search-area
…and Im not sure who decides what is appropriate mourning…. or by extension religion,sexuality, work ethic or even race.
Would you have much of a problem had the target had been a bottle store owner?….or any other person that offends some other/s?
It’s not about offence. If the bottle store owner was going out and pushing spirits onto teens in a way that actively contributed towards alcoholism and degeneration of the community and the police were not able to stop that, then I probably wouldn’t have too much of a problem with locals stepping up and taking action (within limits).
I don’t understand the relevance of the link. Are you saying that all gangs are the same degree of badness? No gangs should be given credit for the good things they do?
Surprised you wish to conflate the posts with gangs (although it is mob mentality)
The original post was headed “vigilantism and intolerance on the rise”…and with it extreme behaviours….I wonder if you would have been as accepting had the target been someone other than an alleged drug dealer….i note that it has been reported Duterte’s extrajudicial killings have been used as cover for other motives.
What I’m arguing is that what is vigilantism in one situation might be useful community action in another. I think you want to condemn all of them on principle, is that right? Because people shouldn’t take the law into their own hands? Whereas I think look at each situation and decide if there is more good than evil being done. That’s why I chose to focus on the gangs, because I’ve been finding the situation with Tribal Huk interesting.
The ‘intolerance’ shown by Tribal Huk for P dealer who are selling drugs to teenagers seems appropriate to me.
Alleged P dealer
I seem to recall similar actions against alleged homosexuals not too long ago due to the “threat to the children”…were you equally accepting of that?
Obviously not. I’ve already told you I think I think context is important.
Im sure those dealing to gays thought their context was fine as well
Of course, and we stood up against that and changed it.
You seem to be arguing a principle, which is laudable, I just don’t think IS, Nazis and active homophobes are going to take any notice of it so it’s a bit moot.
Unless it’s the entire community that’s affected that has come up with a plan of action, then nah.
Me and my mates think P dealers ought to go? Big hurrahs.
Me and my mates also reckon corner dairies shouldn’t sell alcohol? Big hurrahs.
And so on, gaining kudos or whatever, before it it slides into me and my mates calling the shots.
“Unless it’s the entire community that’s affected that has come up with a plan of action, then nah.”
hmm, I think when we’ve had conversations around community in the past you’ve said it’s on the people who are affected by something.
“Me and my mates think P dealers ought to go? Big hurrahs.
Me and my mates also reckon corner dairies shouldn’t sell alcohol? Big hurrahs.”
Me and my mates think that the P dealers who are selling P to teenagers are a problem and we’re going to do something about it more like. Are corner dairies selling alcohol causing the same kinds or degree of problems?
Everyone that’s affected must be included, ie, given a genuine opportunity and encouragement to participate in whatever decision and/or course of action meaningfully – yes.
otherwise…
me and my mates reckon corner dairies shouldn’t sell alcohol and if you ain’t agreeing with that, then maybe you’re a part of the problem….
Everyone that’s affected must be included, ie, given a genuine opportunity and encouragement to participate in whatever decision and/or course of action meaningfully – yes.
That’s the ideal, and it would be interesting to consider how that could happen e.g. a meeting where the P dealers could speak publicly, or where people would the people scared of the gangs could be in a room with the gangs. Meanwhile, in Ngaruawahia they don’t have that capacity.
I have absolutely no idea what the organisational capacity of the community is. But whatever its limits may or may not be, vigilantism is not ever community action and always comes with the same toxic side effects/risks. (I’ve outlined those – the rise of an illegitimate and unaccountable (usually) moral authority)
I’m pretty sure we can rule out P dealers being able to attend public meetings, for obvious legal reasons.
“But whatever its limits may or may not be, vigilantism is not ever community action and always comes with the same toxic side effects/risks.”
And what if the community says go for it?
btw, the Breakfast video in one the links is probably a more convincing argument for not supporting the Tribal Huk’s action. Gross.
Not seeing what legal reason there is that would prevent a P dealer from attending a public meeting.
If a community has decided on a course of action, then it isn’t vigilantism.
if they want to talk about dealing P and there are also police in the room, then I suspect that’s a problem.
Did anyone ask the P addicts what they wanted done? Did they have any say in anything at all? What happens to them and their need for a fix ‘today’? Any support in place for them or are they just being left to twist in the breeze?
Whoop. No P dealers….in this street/this neighbourhood/this town. Chased out they were. Now what? Chase out ‘the bloody kids’ who want to take the stuff?
Agree Pat, that it’s the same social mentality (a part of the same sliding scale) that’s fueling and excusing wide-scale killings in the Philippines. And y’know, I dare say Duterte does some ‘lunch sandwich’ stuff too that’s welcome and appreciated.
It’s all fucking fucked.
Gang A is just pissed, gang B moved in on their turf.
Don’t worry though, gang A will sell them another drug, because profit is the real motivation here!
When drugs are illegal, it’s all about the gangsters.
Who cares if it’s a health issue when there is a buck to be made…
Thankyou Adam. On one of the few occasions I made a conscious decision to not be cynical… 😉
SOZ my cynical day stepping on yours…
I agree re the users’ needs, but I tend to think the solution there is to support users not argue against reducing P dealing to teens.
I’ve not argued against reducing P dealing to teens.
Likewise I haven’t argued for leaving P users to their fate or free for all vigilantism against alcohol selling dairies.
When you endorsed the vigilantism of “Huk” as appropriate, – “The ‘intolerance’ shown by Tribal Huk for P dealer who are selling drugs to teenagers seems appropriate to me.” – where were the addicts?
Draw whatever line you prefer between supposedly acceptable vigilantism and unacceptable vigilantism. You don’t think it’s dairies? Choose something else. Though it’s the vigilantes, having been empowered through endorsement that actually get to choose (that was my point when referencing dairies).
The downward slope heads out in a precise direction and ends in an unsavoury place.
When you endorsed the vigilantism of “Huk” as appropriate, – “The ‘intolerance’ shown by Tribal Huk for P dealer who are selling drugs to teenagers seems appropriate to me.” – where were the addicts?
Probably the same place as the teenagers being targeted by P dealers when you categorically opposed what Tribal Huk did.
Draw whatever line you prefer between supposedly acceptable vigilantism and unacceptable vigilantism. You don’t think it’s dairies? Choose something else. Though it’s the vigilantes, having been empowered through endorsement that actually get to choose (that was my point when referencing dairies).
The downward slope heads out in a precise direction and ends in an unsavoury place.
That sounds right if we were saying living in a society based on anarchism. But I think there are enough natural limits in NZ due to the state, the police force and the justice system for it to not go down that slope.
Pat is arguing the principle, you are arguing the ideal (“Everyone that’s affected must be included, ie, given a genuine opportunity and encouragement to participate in whatever decision and/or course of action meaningfully – yes.”), I’m arguing the pragmatics of what can happen in that community right now. I guess Pat wants it left up to the state. I’m not sure what you want (but I assume not leaving it to the state). I’m saying that on the face of it, I don’t have too much of a problem with it. That’s not actually an endorsement of vigilantism in the way you are suggesting.
Another example might be friends and relatives getting together and putting a stop to a rapist where there is no chance of that happening via the legal system. It happens, it’s not without risk (in a number of ways to various people), I don’t endorse it but I don’t have too much of a problem when it happens where there are few other meaningful choices.
edited.
To be clear. I’ve agreed that an unaccountable sub-group within a community making unilateral decisions based only on their own notions of right and wrong and following through on their own notions of appropriate action with no thought for wider repercussions within the community, just can’t clear any reasonable bar of justification and so therefor can’t be condoned.
Odd that you argue any downward slope leading off from that could only happen in a society basing itself on anarchist principles when vigilantism flies so directly in the face of anarchist principles of democracy and democratic accountability .
The Philippines (occupying a space further along the spectrum or down the slope) definitely isn’t a society that embraces anarchist principles. Neither is India (the other example from the original list of links I opened).
I’ve agreed that an unaccountable sub-group within a community making unilateral decisions based only on their own notions of right and wrong and following through on their own notions of appropriate action with no thought for wider repercussions within the community, just can’t clear any reasonable bar of justification and so therefor can’t be condoned.
I’m not sure that Tribal Huk are unaccountable in that absolute way. They went to a public meeting, they appear to have some support in the community. I’m wondering if they have levels of accountability within the hapū and iwi structures locally. This is why I said on the face of it, we don’t really know what happens there.
Odd that you argue any downward slope leading off from that could only happen in a society basing itself on anarchist principles when vigilantism flies so directly in the face of anarchist principles of democracy and democratic accountability .
I didn’t use the word only. Nor did I imply inevitability. I gave that as a counterpoint to my point that the State structure in NZ would stop the slippery slope.
(and as an aside, I’ve yet to hear the explanation about how anarchist societies do or would manage people who behaved in other ways, e.g. via vigilantism. But that’s an old argument).
The Philippines (occupying a space further along the spectrum or down the slope) definitely isn’t a society that embraces anarchist principles. Neither is India (the other example from the original list of links I opened).
That doesn’t have anything to do with my points though. I’m not saying that vigilantism is good, never a problem, or never a slippery slope. I haven’t looked at the other links.
First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.
Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.
Martin Niemoller
Then they came for P dealers who were selling addictive drugs to kids.
Doesn’t have the same ring to it. I don’t know the original context for Niemoller’s quote but I don’t think he was arguing what you are arguing (feel free to clarify what you mean though).
I think Niemoller was arguing exactly what I am….and if you don’t know the original context, thats a massive assumption on your part…
first they came for the (alleged) drug pushers….and i did not speak out because I was not a drug dealer
then they came for the pedophiles…and I did not speak out because I was not a pedophile
then they came for the misogynists…and i did not speak out because I was not a misogynist
then they came for the morally superior….
Well, no, Martin Niemöller was not arguing that criminals should not be punished. Just that we should speak out when the innocent are punished, even if we ourselves are not targets or don’t even particularly like the targets. It’s about the community protecting each other from unjustified persecution to protect themselves from the same.
Frankly, applying that to pedophiles and p dealers is a travesty, in my opinion.
and who decides the innocent?…in Nazi Germany all those named by Niemoller were considered criminals, just as less than three decades ago homosexuals here were considered criminal and were run out of town just like our alleged P pushers…when you allow insanity to prevail no-one is safe nor immune…..not even those passing judgement.
Are you really saying that you can see no fundamental difference between a trade unionist and a pedophile?
the point is those making the judgement may not…..ISIS consider anyone not adhering to their version of Islam fair game, just as many appear to think dispensing vigilante justice to alleged drug dealers think they are justified…just because you rate trade unionists highly don’t believe there are not many who would like to see trade unions a part of a distant past….by any means.
“and who decides the innocent?”
In NZ the State does. And the state takes action against people, including violent action, as it sees fit, even against the values of its citizens at times. Someone is deciding where it is ok to intervene.
McFlock, thanks for the comment re Niemoller, that’s how I’ve always understood that quote.
But that wasn’t what I asked.
P dealers and pedophiles have victims. Trade unionists, Jews and homosexuals do not. I’m astonished that this had to be spelled out for you.
Niemöller wasn’t arguing what sort of process should be used by society to enforce its rules – Nazi detentions and murders often took place under the cloak of legislative legitimacy, not mob rule. What he was saying is that we should speak out against manifest injustices in our society.
When it comes to p dealers and pedophiles, the threshold for “manifest injustice” is raised a lot higher than for victimless beliefs or even victimless characteristics.
“t’s about the community protecting each other from unjustified persecution to protect themselves from the same.”
….and as far as the German government of the day were concerned the persecution was justified, whether you accept that or not.
“Niemöller wasn’t arguing what sort of process should be used by society to enforce its rules – Nazi detentions and murders often took place under the cloak of legislative legitimacy, not mob rule. What he was saying is that we should speak out against manifest injustices in our society.”
Nazi detentions and murders happened under both mob rule and legal cloak…you state those illegal groups had no victims yet that was not the position of the government nor many of the population who blamed all the mentioned groups for all sorts of social ills and crimes.
I further note that the similarity to actions against homosexuals in our recent past has been neatly ignored.
Who decides the innocent….”In NZ the State does”
No ,the Judiciary do…through due process…not mob rule.
“I’m astonished that this had to be spelled out for you.”
Ditto
So the judiciary decides it, even though in the government that Niemöller was talking about the judiciary made that judgement in a manifestly unjust manner and that’s what Niemöller was saying he should have worked harder at opposing.
Niemöller wasn’t talking about the manner in which unjust rulings were made, he was talking about what our reactions should be to manifestly unjust rulings. Not whether it was done by courts or mobs, just whether it was unjust. And if it’s unjust, we should stand against it.
How is kicking out p dealers manifestly unjust?
“Who decides the innocent….”In NZ the State does”
No ,the Judiciary do…through due process…not mob rule.”
Yes, and the State rewrites the laws that they act within.
“not mob rule”
And yet if you are a woman who has been raped or a young Māori man who’s broken the law you will get a different kind of justice than if you are not. So this idea that we’re getting to now, that the State has a good process but people taking justice into their owns hands don’t is flawed. Hence my original comment about not having too much of a problem with what Tribal Huk did on the face of it.
“How is kicking out p dealers manifestly unjust?”
this is not about P dealers (alleged) per se…..it is about the rise of vigilantism and intolerance, and the increasingly extreme behaviours associated with that
Whoa there, vigilantism and intolerance are two different things.
Vigilantism is what happens when people perceive the legal system as inadequate, and there are good arguments against it. In some circumstances, such as the degradation of society, it might be necessary, however.
Some things should not be tolerated. At all. You brought up pedophilia, for example.
Other things that don’t victimise other people, such as being Jewish or gay, should be tolerated and defended.
If your problem is with vigilantism, you chose a reference that doesn’t actually address it at all. “To Kill a Mockingbird”, or even the old Peter Lorre movie “M” would be applicable. Hell, even Eastwood’s “Hang ‘Em High”. Not Niemöller.
If you think we should “tolerate” p dealers, I do not agree at all.
You might question whether the Huks actually came for the P dealers. Or did they merely frighten them away. Sure intimidation is not beautiful, but neither is selling the more destructive drugs into a community. Of the possible outcomes this one seems relatively benign.
According to the MSM, at least one of the P dealers got beaten up.
lol…ah i don’t often agree with CV (less and less these days) but he is right …you are very adroit at ducking and weaving but never quite well enough to hide the hypocrisy
I’ve kept to a pretty simple point: Niemöller’s comment was about our reaction to injustice, not about the manner in which the injustice was arrived at. And where p dealers and pedophiles are concerned, it’s a bit more difficult to react to their behaviour in an unjust manner than in response to victimless things like “being Jewish”. Any response purely based on the last is unjust. People tend to be more equivocal about how far you can go with a pedophile before it’s an injustice.
and in return Ill keep it simple…..we have developed a legal system for a reason, and if your lucky enough to live in a country where the Judiciary is removed from the Government then we should use it as intended…..otherwise we may as well have mob rule.
There is no halfway house.
And as the Niemoller quote illustrates no one wins then….not even those who think they are right.
and what about when the justice system isn’t being used as intended, or where it is but that doesn’t serve the people?
ok, two points:
firstly, that’s not what Niemöller’s poem illustrates at all, if only because the Nazi judicial system was not always mob rule, and also happened under legal cloak. Niemöller was talking about his behaviour and inactivity in that environment, so if anything it’s about the consequences of political apathy.
secondly, a legal system that fails to address endemic social harms and crimes leaves a vacuum, a void between everything that should be enforced and that which actually is enforced. When that gap gets too large, that’s when vigilantism and mob justice occurs. This doesn’t mean that an injustice occurs (although it increases the likelihood). It just means that the formal legal system is failing to do its job (usually because it’s become alienated from sectors of the community).
“firstly, that’s not what Niemöller’s poem illustrates at all,”
No?….he used that quote on many occasions over the years , more often than not outside of the Nazi context, but id be delighted to hear your deconstruction.
“secondly, a legal system that fails to address endemic social harms and crimes leaves a vacuum,”
and filling that vacuum with mob rule leads to what?
@pat Political apathy. Not speaking out about injustice. How many times did he use it in the context of a mob, as opposed to general injustice?
Complete decay of a system that’s alienated from the population.
Nobody here, as far as I can tell, is saying that it’s a good thing that the police are so ineffectual in this matter that they’ve been sidelined. Just that the gang’s threat is a normal and, in the absence of formal effective law enforcement, a legitimate response to a serious social harm.
I can’t tell which comment you are referring to, so it’s hard to know what you are on about. By all means have a go and point out the hypocrisy.
“I further note that the similarity to actions against homosexuals in our recent past has been neatly ignored.”
pat, can you please start using @McFlock, @weka etc. It’s impossible to know who you are talking to or what you mean.
“I further note that the similarity to actions against homosexuals in our recent past has been neatly ignored.”
That appears to be a reply to my saying point out my hypocrisy. Yet it’s a comment from you to McFlock, which I didn’t respond to. What?
“I further note that the similarity to actions against homosexuals in our recent past has been neatly ignored.”
Not ignored. Exactly as victimless as being Jewish or a unionist. Illegal in NZ until thirty years ago – until enough people started saying things against that injustice. And same-sex marriage was illegal until very recently, and many of the people who spoke out against that injustice weren’t intending to marry people of the same sex.
Funny how when enough people say something, the world improves slightly. And if we all say nothing, the world gets worse until finally there’s nobody around to say something for us.
@ Weka
https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-18102016/#comment-1246800
Steinlager All blacks and Alco pops weka ……………….$200 million per year in marketing/pushing ….
Pro-Alcohol laws passed under urgency ……….
Just been reading this blogpost (link below) which popped up on TS feed section. Agree with many of his ideas – but but not his conclusion – and he makes the mistake of thinking just because we have low density in NZ, we should automatically fill it up with people and immigration is a great idea.
looking at the density argument. If we have the amazon rain forest, should we just start building there because it is a ‘low density opportunity in South America? Nope – time we start to value the environment and actually try to preserve some Green spaces left in the world (including countries that for whatever reason are not filled up with people, cars and houses).
How the hell can we keep biodiversity, natural environment with that sort of thinking? Wow there’s a free green space, (Actually probably a thriving ecosystem) but in the eyes of some, Yay lets utilise it by importing someone from he other side of the world to live there.
Sorry I think the way forward with climate change is to actually embrace what little green (and water) space we have got left, live with less consumerism and move trade into a more electronic format but food production more local, make taxes fair, and try not to repopulate every last centimetre of the world with people.
I get many people are migrants here, or forced to be migrants else where by government conditions, but moving people around is not solving the problems it is enabling neoliberalism and the resulting problems to dominate and mask that economically it is not working.
http://bat-bean-beam.blogspot.co.nz/2016/10/on-need-for-sustainable-immigration.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+BatBeanBeam-AWeblogOnMemoryAndTechnology+(Bat,+Bean,+Beam+-+A+Weblog+on+Memory+and+Technology)
As someone who has often lived in sparsely populated areas that part of his argument made me cringe. He lives in Wellington, so good on him if he wants high density there, but fuck a policy that says everywhere else should be filled up. Empty spaces have value for many reasons, and I don’t see too much difference between his attitude there and colonisation ethics that thought that because the land wasn’t ploughed it wasn’t being used (or was empty).
I haven’t read the GP policy change yet, but I too would hope we could look at what a steady state might be, and then use our relative wealth to support other places to do the same. We should of course be taking far more refugees.
I got the impression the writer was saying we need to allow more immigration because refugees are in huge danger and need a home, not because he particularly wants to ruin our countryside. It’s a strong moral argument and I find it difficult to argue against.
Many of the countries where the refugees are coming from are going to take a long time to repair to become habitable again, and some may not be habitable again. That’s the “nice” solution most people want I guess. Look we’ll fix up your home so you can go back and then we hopefully don’t have to deal with you again.
Our current refugee quota is pitiful. I’m all for increasing the refugee quota. But doubling, tripling of refugee quota is nothing, compared to the current 69,000 migrants and 166,000 work visas being given out by the government. Economic migration of people with 10 million to spend or the skills category providing low paid Chef’s for SkyCity and fruit pickers for industry, is completely different to Refugees.
+100 save nz…refugees are different from economic migration
At one fifteenth the population density of the UK and given that the UK has screeds of open spaces, I’m not buying this nonsense that immigration will suddenly see NZ turned into some kind of endless concrete jungle.
Refugees need the support of other refugees – a sense of continuity and community. Larger numbers, not a few placed here and a few placed there, are required to ensure that. Taking only a few and dispersing them, ensures that a bogus argument about ‘lack of resources’ gains traction. It’s a manufactured scenario designed to excuse turning our backs on refugees and ensure that we’ll always have that excuse as a fall back.
On general immigration, well…we need to overhaul our infrastructure as a matter of urgency given the path we’re on with CC. We’re not doing it (hell mend us), but could quite easily get onto it, alongside any necessary expansion of those infrastructures, if we had, besides the political will and intelligence, the numbers of people required to do it.
Wouldn’t it make sense if, instead of asking about how many millions a person can invest (by way of fast tracking), we looked at how much of a real world contribution to NZ preparedness they could make by way of fast tracking? A lot of what needs done isn’t particularly skilled – but it will take numbers.
There will be an optimum number with regards immigrants. I’ve no idea what that might be. Maybe some academic papers that take into account NZs actual real world requirements has been published? No – of course not.
So should immigration levels into New Zealand be increased, or decreased?
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/entertainment/news/article.cfm?c_id=1501119&objectid=11730968
I’m tempted to say something negative but…well…anyone that produces a one-two combo of Face Value and Hello, I Must Be Going gets to put out as many albums as they like
and I don’t care what anyone else thinks dammit 🙂
And we’re off!
/
A United Nations signatory, ToddandClare.com, has published a report on the official UN website asking the UN to stop Julian Assange from using the UN’s name to dismiss a European Arrest Warrant, following a Royal Bahamas Police Force Investigation into child sex offenses involving Mr Assange and ToddandClare.com.
http://www.prweb.com/releases/united-nations-report/julian-assange-wikileaks/prweb13750603.htm
ahh toddandclare.com…. upstanding UN signatories…. a good bit of background perspective would be to go here
https://www.toddandclare.com
I can’t quite figure the story out but this is probably a better link for people to get a grasp of it (plus joe’s link).
https://www.toddandclare.com/datinglife/online-dating/united-nations-statement-julian-assange-wikileaks/
[lprent: See my comments at the end of this. Content hidden. ]
Assange is alleged to have had video chats with the 8-year-old sister of a 22-year-old woman using an online dating site, toddandclare.com.
During those chats, he allegedly performed sexual acts on camera and persuaded the 8-year-old to perform other acts on camera. Her parents reported this to the Royal Bahamas Police.
[lprent: Content removed ]
https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:ruXBSKQHQtYJ:https://www.unglobalcompact.org/system/attachments/cop_2016/322211/original/ToddandClare.com_United_Nations_GC_Member_Report_COP_1042016.pdf%3F1475591336+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
[lprent: There is a reason that this content has a link that is a google cache. The “member” has been delisted a few days after this document was created and uploaded as an attachment.
In my opinion, this particular document and the organisation is likely to be a false flag operation and if probably both false and defamatory. If you don’t think that it is, then email me. Otherwise anyone repeating is likely to receive an immediate permanent ban. ]
Damn…
Wow.
Did not suspect/expect that at all.
Thanks joe, that’s much clearer.
There’s more there about how they were working with Assange on their anti-rape message. Hard read. Pretty serious mistake them entering into an endorsement contract with Assange in the first place, but all kudos to them for now so meticulously documenting what happened.
Puts those Swedish allegation sin new light…if whats being said is true of course
I haven’t quite gotten my head around it all yet (e.g. what is meant by the UN support for Assange and why T&C fell out with the UN over that?), but mostly I’m just thinking here we go again, with all that entails.
It’s strange that the media haven’t picked this up given the first press release was Oct 11.
Mrs Darling-Hill is both the host of the family and the Bahama’s social services worker who’s involved, yes?
Chatlogs…those are historical, right?
Assuming the “we understand” in the documentation is all true and correct, I’m somewhat curious as to when and how any contact between Assange and the other website user (the 22 year old daughter) became chats and/or what not between Assange and her 8 year old sister.
Indeed, best not to rush into judgement until more facts are known
8 year old has sister’s password? Older sister leaves the computer on and doesn’t log out?
I’m curious as to, assuming the documentation is true, Assange could do something so stupid given his tech expertise (and by stupid I’m not referring to the sexual abuse, that’s something else entirely. I’m referring to his use of ICT).
Yes i also followed up on Darling- hill she is the deputy director of social services in the bahamas govt. As well as the social worker involved as well as the host of the 8 year old (as well a patron of some local charities)
Question how does an 8 year old get access to adult only account of 22 year old? and who bears responsibility for that ?
Question did assange believe he was communicating with a 22 year old consenting female ?
One thing is sure this is serious abuse of the 8 year old girl but by whom?
I really do have an open mind but it looks just a bit too cute
In any case i can see why the Equadorians took his internet access away.. fair enough. What a dumb thing to do
“Question how does an 8 year old get access to adult only account of 22 year old? and who bears responsibility for that ?”
I think that’s a separate issue than Assange’s involvement or not in child abuse. Open internet is pretty ubiquitous, not for all children, but for enough.
I agree the question of whether Assange knew he was interacting with a child is important.
As clear as mud.
( from the Kos article below)
BY FAX
Rt Hon Justin Trudeau
Office of the Prime Minister of Canada
80 Wellington Street
Ottawa, ON K1A 0A2
Date: 10.17.2016
Sir,
We’re writing on behalf of ToddandClare.com, a dating site in Houston with a legal obligation to our female members. We are officially requesting your offices to intervene on behalf of a vulnerable Canadian family who are distraught and frightened. The family attended 2 police stations in Nassau, Bahamas, on September 28, 2016, to report to the Royal Bahamas Police Force (RBPF) that their 8 year old daughter had been abused by Julian Assange using our dating service.
The subsequent mishandling of the initial stages of the child sex investigation by the Royal Bahamas Police Force, and the way the RBPF have passed information ‘off the record’ to the UK tabloids, is of grave concern.
The family say that they experienced anti-Caucasian racism in Nassau.
They have told us they received unfavorable treatment by the RBPF on account of being white. They say that the Bahamas authorities were more interested in protecting the reputation of their island, and closing the case, than properly investigating their allegations of internet child abuse by Julian Assange, against a Canadian minor.
The family left the Bahamas, because they did not wish to subject their 8 year old to a continued nightmare and anti-white, racist abuse by Bahamian police. In addition to the clear racial problem, this investigation is particularly sensitive. The way the facts of the case pertain to the family’s eldest daughter, a 22 year old college woman who is the elder sister of the 8 year old child, and who Assange contacted the minor through, could have wider legal implications for the young woman.
continues – https://www.facebook.com/toddandclare/posts/1191392577583146
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2016/10/17/1583749/-Julian-Assange-investigated-for-online-grooming-of-8-year-old-girl
hmm, ok, so the British tabloids have this? I can’t find anything online so far.
Sub judice?.
Not only is Assange a rapist, that so many people are absolutely sure of after swallowing the Deep State smear campaign against him holus bolus, but now he’s been found a pedo too, which I reckon the same people have always suspected deep inside would be totally the case for an over-geeky internet type like Assange.
Talk about lefties swimming in an ocean of confirmation bias.
lolz, that was entirely predictable.
+100 CV…it is a fascist smear campaign
Daily Kos has picked it up, and notes,
The Ecuador Embassy in London where Julian Assange has been living since June 2012 has cut his internet access (as reported by Wikileaks).
There’s something about the social worker in there too, and why they fell out with the UN
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2016/10/17/1583749/-Julian-Assange-investigated-for-online-grooming-of-8-year-old-girl
The web cache link seems pretty clear, but some of the other tellings of the story (T&C’s website, the DK story) are a bit ramble. DK is raising some initial questions.
Shows all the signs of being a spoof. From the protestations of the “organisation” to the way that it was associated to a “official” report pulled out of a cache for a deleted account.
Certainly defamatory if it is just a spoof.
I keep looking at it and it kind of makes sense but then it doesn’t. That no media have picked up says heaps. The inconsistency in clarity between the cached report and the post on the organisation’s website was the oddest thing, looks like they’re written by different organisations, one very professional, the other not.
So is the dating website a hoax too?
IF (and that is still an IF) its a set up i beleve that the conduit will be the
KINGDOR NATIONAL PARKINSON’S FOUNDATION
which appears to be a wealthy charitable organisatiuon of which
Mavis Darling-Hill is the founder off to search the panama papers now !
Wikileaks formally responds to this
https://wikileaks.org/Background-and-Documents-on-Attempts-to-Frame-Assange-as-a-Pedophile-and.html?update3
OK I am convinced its a complete scam. The dating website never was anything more than a front page.
Here is an interesting puzzle…. I have been emailing various RNZ presenters over the last 6 months with the following simple question…
Would asking Jonathon Colman whether he has Public or Private health care be considered an ad hominem question?
I had been in email exchanges with a couple of RNZ presenters prior to asking this question, then as soon as I asked the question I was completely closed down, very strange, not one response.
How exactly does a teacher become a principal, everything about this guy suggests hes got no idea about…well anything
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11730576
John Key’s ‘brighter future’…
http://www.newshub.co.nz/nznews/suicide-rates-highest-since-records-began-2016101811
Bear in mind his explanation for an increase in violent crime…
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/85448143/government-to-spend-1b-to-sleep-1800-more-prisoners
Perhaps he’ll try to spin the rise in suicide numbers not being a result of more desperate and suicidal people, but because they are more effective?
“A shop-bought helium balloon kit was taken from 76-year-old Nelson woman Patsy McGrath, who has long campaigned for euthanasia, on Friday, the Voluntary Euthanasia Society says.”
So, was she turned in by a relative or friend determined to intervene in her plans, or are the Police using public profiles in a open legal process ie submission to the health committee, to make criminals of people who wish to control their own destinies.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11730905
disgraceful Siobhan…it is her business and NO business of the police!
surely the police have better things to do with their time than harrass a 76 year old woman?…are the Police being politicised?…in which case we have a Police State
The USS Sampson a guided missile destroyer will visit for the 75th anniversary of the RNZN.
I’ve been satisfied for quite some time now that a port visit by a US Navy vessel would not be in breach of our law (with the exception of aircraft carriers and submarines). Of course, I expect some people will take issue with US foreign policy and militarism, but this marks a diplomatic win for our longstanding anti-nuclear policy.
A win all round
I take it the US neither confirm nor deny policy is still in place? Looks to me that New Zealand has backed down by no longer asking the question.
Who has Labour chosen to lose to Chris Bishop in Lower Hutt?
Julian from Wikileaks has had his internet privileges removed.
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-cyber-wikileaks-idUSKBN12H2E9
Its going to get bloody boring being holed up like that moving forward…
Perhaps this will give him motivation to move out.
look upthread.
Oh.
That’s not good.
Watch out for ‘Smash and Grab Banks’ like the Royal Bank of Scotland( are the banksters waiting in the shadows of a bank near you?)
…the banksters are after your life savings and assets… a mad Scotsman speaks out and gives his story
(once upon a time it was highway men …now it is banksters)
Commoners Watch Out!
https://www.rt.com/shows/keiser-report/362856-episode-max-keiser-980/
“Max and Stacy are joined by Joel Benjamin, local authority debt audit campaigner with Debt Resistance UK, and Nigel Henderson, who lost his hotel business to RBS’s restructuring division, to talk of the ‘stunned commoners’ in awe (at the brazenness) of the Royal… Bank of Scotland.
Nigel recounts his own encounter with RBS’s smash and grab unit which saw him lose his hotel in Scotland.
They discuss the tens of billions in fines the bank, taxpayer-owned RBS, faces from US authorities for the bank’s role in the mortgage backed securities fraud and whether or not there will be anything left for compensation of the thousands of small and medium sized enterprises destroyed in the UK.”
…and in retribution to RT? (banksters fight back)
‘Cancellation of RT UK’s bank account ‘crude British state propaganda’ – Galloway (VIDEO)’
https://www.rt.com/uk/363068-galloway-rt-nat-west/
‘Oliver Stone on RT bank account closure: ‘It’s a media war and UK sees you as a threat’ ‘
https://www.rt.com/news/363093-media-war-stone-rt-bank/
‘Backtracking from ‘no discussion’? UK bank says it will review closure of RT accounts’
https://www.rt.com/news/363086-uk-bank-rt-review-closure/
Link to five anti Putin/Russia stories aired on RT, the state controlled news org.
Fuck off, you first. Link to three pro Putin stories in the state controlled Washington Post in the last 3 years.
That will say something about how Putin is being used as the new scapegoat for every US imperial failure in the world.
One will do, Putin’s state sponsored, apologist pussy cat. I’ll wait. lol
RT frequently mentions criticisms of Putin, but does not make allegations against him.
Now, show me 3 recent Washington Post articles which are pro-putin.
lol
no link? You’re probably looking for one of those “frequent” articles, right now…
So not one link to an anti Putin post on the RT network.
Thanks for that, comradeski. lol
Your propaganda source is duly and cruelly noted.
@ Peter Swift …how about address the content of this?..it is a British story
…these are two Brits and two Americans, all well qualified, having a discussion about the practices of the ‘Royal Bank of Scotland’ which has destroyed thousands of small and medium sized enterprises in the UK
…do you these people are telling fibs ?…I don’t think so
I sometimes struggled and sometimes guffawed my way through that diatribe before hitting this clanger or alarm bell or whatever you might want to call it towards the very end.
Like the UN Working Group on Arbitrary Detention’s misguided support for a fugitive rapist,
Yup, a clanger.
/
A United Nations panel has decided that Julian Assange’s three-and-a-half years in the Ecuadorian embassy amount to “arbitrary detention”, leading his lawyers to call for the Swedish extradition request to be dropped immediately.
A Swedish foreign ministry spokeswoman confirmed that the UN panel, due to publish its findings on Friday, had concluded that Assange was “arbitrarily detained”.
The WikiLeaks founder sought asylum from Ecuador in June 2012 to avoid extradition to Sweden to face questioning over rape and sexual assault allegations, which he denies.
The panel’s findings were disclosed to the Swedish and British governments on 22 January, and will be published on Friday morning. Their judgment is not legally binding but can be used to apply pressure on states in human rights cases.
https://www.theguardian.com/media/2016/feb/04/julian-assange-wikileaks-arrest-friday-un-investigation
[In order to keep OM and DR free for other conversations, all comments, link postings etc about the US election now need to go in the dedicated US election discussion here.
If you are unsure, post in that thread rather than here. It’s not possible for moderators to shift posts from OM to there, so any comments here may get deleted – weka]
Please don’t tell us who won!
[now you know the moderators’ super powers, ha ha. (trying to keep this comment highlighted at the bottom so people coming in off the comments list see it) – weka]