Open Mike 18/10/2016

161 comments on “Open Mike 18/10/2016 ”

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1. weka 1

   17 October 2016 at 3:22 pm

   [Please note, we are trialling something new for Open Mike and Daily Review.

   In order to keep OM and DR free for other conversations, all comments, link postings etc about the US election now need to go in the dedicated US election discussion here.

   If you are unsure, post in that thread rather than here. It’s not possible for moderators to shift posts from OM to there, so any comments here may get deleted.

   Have fun folks – weka]
   • Sacha 1.1

     18 October 2016 at 8:31 am

     Thank you.
   • Jenny Kirk 1.2

     18 October 2016 at 8:35 am

     Good idea.
   • tc 1.3

     18 October 2016 at 10:45 am

     Nice one.
   • adam 1.4

     18 October 2016 at 11:44 am

     *hugs*
2. miravox 2

   18 October 2016 at 7:44 am

   Really?

   Prime Minister John Key has joined with a new ally – after saying he supports the Ngaruawahia gang Tribal Huk’s efforts to address the methamphetamine crisis.

   The Waikato town’s gang gave P dealers until 6:30pm on Friday to leave or they would be run out of town – with president Jamie Pink saying violence would be used if necessary.

   Tribal Huk’s 24-hour warning to Ngaruawahia meth dealers expires Ngaruawahia silent as meth-dealing deadline passes It’s a move Mr Key says he welcomes.

   “Obviously we welcome any support to do something like that so long as it’s legal of course,” he said on Monday.

   I thought the war on P was going so well, but vigilantes do it better than the law?
   • b waghorn 2.1

     18 October 2016 at 7:58 am

     beats funding the police i guess
     • The Chairman 2.1.1

       18 October 2016 at 12:11 pm

       Is this our brighter future, where the PM underfunds the police and supports gangs riding rough shod?
       • b waghorn 2.1.1.1

         18 October 2016 at 1:31 pm

         They’ll probably get the contract for the new prisons , can’t be much worse than serco.
   • Wensleydale 2.2

     18 October 2016 at 9:17 am

     He’s a populist. Any bandwagon that looks as though it’s likely to generate both a following and positive press coverage, and you’ll find Key clinging to the side of it like a fucking barnacle. He’s utterly shameless.
   • tc 2.3

     18 October 2016 at 10:47 am

     Recall his ‘war on P’ comments…..reality is the nats have enabled this to grow due to their police resourcing.
     • Sacha 2.3.1

       18 October 2016 at 10:53 am

       And now they’re spending another billion on prisons. Such a success story.
       • left for dead 2.3.1.1

         18 October 2016 at 11:32 am

         A shame, should be on hospitals, at the current rate of knots that’s where this will end up, if not the morgue.
   • The Chairman 2.4

     18 October 2016 at 12:03 pm

     On Friday evening, when Pink’s deadline passed, the main street of the town was quiet. Behind the scenes, it was anything but

     http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/85386340/tribal-huk-clears-ngaruawahia-of-p-dealers-as-promised
     • Cinny 2.4.1

       18 October 2016 at 4:20 pm

       Bravo to the Tribal Huk and the community supporting their views to keep their town free from P.
       • The Chairman 2.4.1.1

         18 October 2016 at 5:57 pm

         Do you support the alleged manhandling and assault of alleged P dealers?
3. gsays 3

   18 October 2016 at 8:25 am

   hi all,
   i am thinking of having a chat to some young teenage boys about consent.
   i am wanting to pick brains of fellow standardistas for ideas/analagies.
   i have heard the cup of tea analogy, and would like to see if that can be fleshed out, added to, or another way of discussing this altogether.

   personally the idea of acting against someones wishes is abhorent to me.

   i contrast my upbringing: loving parents, decent solid father, pornography was a well leafed magazine in a mates brothers bedroom, alcohol was something that was consumed responsibly.

   fully 3/4s of these young men lack a father in the house and a significant number of them, the male is a figure of conflict. (custody battles, communication etc)
   as for pornography, there is no comparison to yesty year.

   thanks in advance.
   • weka 3.1

     18 October 2016 at 9:59 am

     gsays, great to hear you doing this, all power to you. I hope you get some genuine replies.
   • vto 3.2

     18 October 2016 at 11:00 am

     Sounds like those boys need more men in their lives, not less, as seems to have been advocated by many in that other post on being a bitch

     [I haven’t seen anyone on that thread say that. Another moderator has set your comments to go into moderation for approval, so maybe be a bit more careful – weka]
     • vto 3.2.1

       18 October 2016 at 9:17 am

       You can always tell when dealing with bullies – they hate their own medicine

       There are many posts in there on how the world might be a better place without men i.e. no wars.

       [I have enough on my plate today without having to moderate you telling lies. Take the day off – weka]
   • McFlock 3.3

     18 October 2016 at 12:19 pm

     I suppose it depends on the context (and make sure you run it by the parents/caregivers first, otherwise you risk just being a weirdo talking about sex to teens 🙂 ).

     Thinking back on myself at that age, and what seems to work for my younger relatives, maybe the mind/body duality thing? Not to get carried away by anger/love/whatever, but to stop and say “am I being smart about this?”. That and “look at all blacks – being dumb off the field can still fuck up your career and life”.

     Oh, and the difference between love and infatuation: love is when you know everything about the other person, infatuation is when you know nothing about them but assume they fit your desires.
     • gsays 3.3.1

       18 October 2016 at 3:11 pm

       cheers for your consideration mcf,
       i am anticipating keeping away from sex and focus on what values consent includes, respect, empathy, boundaries.

       reinforce the importance of consent as a foundation of character.
4. Muttonbird 4

   18 October 2016 at 8:49 am

   According to The New Zealand Initiative there is no rise in income inequality. That is if you conveniently ignore that a rise in the value of houses is income for home-owners.

   It’s odd to me anyway that a rise in net worth is not classed as a rise in income according to the New Zealand Initiative.

   http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11730940
   • Wayne 4.1

     18 October 2016 at 10:13 am

     I appreciate that you have acknowledged that there is a distinction between capital and income. In my view they are not the same, a capital gain is not simply income in another form.

     Income usually produces an actual cash amount each week, month or quarter.

     A capital gain is not realisable until the capital asset is sold. Even then it may be illusory. For instance most NZ’ers have the bulk of their capital in their house. Selling and buying on the same market simply means a different house, not any cash. However, I do appreciate that the large increase in Auckland property prices has given people to opportunity to buy cheaper elsewhere and release quite a large amount of cash.

     As far as I understand the data, there has been no real change in income distribution in New Zealand over the last twenty year. By that I mean wages, salaries, business income and interest and dividends.

     What has occurred, largely as a result of land inflation and stock market increases in the last five years, is an increase in wealth disparity. Around 30% of people rent rather than own, and by and large they have less wealth as proportion of the national wealth than 15 years ago.

     I also suspect that some suburbs in Auckland, typically wealthy ones, have had a larger percentage value increase than some less wealthy suburbs. And there is no doubt people have used their increased equity to support investment expenditure, even it is often home improvements, and also helping their children buy a house/apartment. Going around Devonport or Herne Bay, virtually every house has been expensively refurbished in the last fifteen years, and these suburbs have become $2 million average house price suburbs.
     • mauī 4.1.1

       18 October 2016 at 10:46 am

       As far as I understand the data, there has been no real change in income distribution in New Zealand over the last twenty year. By that I mean wages, salaries, business income and interest and dividends.

       Well that’s nice. I guess we just tell the increasing numbers of people begging on the streets that it’s always been like this. Same goes for those school kids who don’t have any lunch or are lucky enough to have a charity come to school and feed them. It’s ok kids it’s always been like this. And those growing encampments of “motorhomes” on the streets, yeah they’ve been there since like the mid 90s. No worries mate.
5. Muttonbird 5

   18 October 2016 at 8:53 am

   Is John Key simply lying about meth use in this country? He claims it is dropping but everyone else says it is rising.

   Given Key’s track record on lying about crime stats I tend to believe everyone else on this one.

   http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/315882/drug-clinics-reject-govt-claims-p-use-is-dropping
   • tc 5.1

     18 October 2016 at 10:52 am

     Risen as predicted by senior narcs officers due to their dispropportinate focus on that evil weed which saw a few leave in frustration.

     BS as usual from the liar in chief with his convenient crime stats….collins grin widens.
6. save nz 6

   18 October 2016 at 9:45 am

   Important points raised by Keith Locke

   http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2016/10/18/must-read-bill-opens-door-to-extensive-gcsb-surveillance-of-new-zealanders/#comment-356501
7. Anne 7

   18 October 2016 at 9:46 am

   Helen Kelly got it right
   says Bryan Gould.
   • save nz 7.1

     18 October 2016 at 10:15 am

     +1 – Yep Kindness one of most under rated attributes.
   • Manuka AOR 7.2

     18 October 2016 at 2:10 pm

     Thank you Anne. Invaluable.

     “Kindness is not only the key to our happiness and success as a species but to our very survival as well.”
8. Colonial Viper 8

   18 October 2016 at 10:06 am

   the Empire Strikes Back: RT (UK) bank accounts to be all shut down – no reason given, no discussions to be entered into

   https://www.rt.com/news/363013-rt-uk-accounts-blocked/

   At the same time they have cut Julian Assange’s internet connection in the Ecuadorean Embassy (UK) to the outside world.

   http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/10/wikileaks-assange-internet-severed-state-actor-161017101111181.html

   And lastly, a senior and very respected leader of the rebel military forces in the Donbass has been assassinated by an IED at his family home.

   Expect things to turn very nasty in Ukraine very shortly.

   http://www.fort-russ.com/2016/10/assassination-of-motorola-last-straw.html
   • save nz 8.1

     18 October 2016 at 10:18 am

     +1 CV Shocking Journalistic censorship.
   • save nz 8.2

     18 October 2016 at 10:21 am

     And this is pretty shocking too…

     It recently emerged that Hillary Clinton reportedly wanted to “drone” Assange when she was the US secretary of state.

     Hillary Clinton on Assange “Can’t we just drone this guy” — report https://t.co/S7tPrl2QCZ pic.twitter.com/qy2EQBa48y

     — WikiLeaks (@wikileaks) October 3, 2016
     • Psycho Milt 8.2.1

       18 October 2016 at 10:54 am

       That’s gold. If I was US Secretary of State, every problem would get an initial “Can’t we just drone this guy?” Also, maybe some quotes from Archer.
   • Psycho Milt 8.3

     18 October 2016 at 10:44 am

     At the same time they have cut Julian Assange’s internet connection in the Ecuadorean Embassy (UK) to the outside world.

     NatWest bank is in charge of internet connections to the Ecuadorean embassy? That’s pretty awesome diversification.

     And lastly, a senior and very respected leader of the rebel military forces in the Donbass has been assassinated by an IED at his family home.

     Or to put it another way, a local warlord well known for killing prisoners annoyed one person too many and got his beans. The guy was a Russian who got his combat experience in the suppression of colonial uprisings in Chechnya and went to the Ukraine so he could kill Ukrainians, quite likely at the behest of the Russian government. I thought you were against foreign fighters and mercenaries attacking sovereign countries?
     • Colonial Viper 8.3.1

       18 October 2016 at 10:49 am

       Hi PM, always good of you to reveal more and more about your personality.
   • joe90 8.4

     18 October 2016 at 11:18 am

     And lastly, a senior and very respected leader of the rebel military forces in the Donbass has been assassinated by an IED at his family home.

     War criminal gets his.

     Motorola and his battalion are also accused of torturing captured Ukrainian soldiers. After Ukrainian soldier Ihor Branovytsky had been captured near Donetsk and was in custody of Pavlov’s group, Pavlov is alleged to have deliberately killed the prisoner on 21 January 2015 with two headshots

     https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arsen_Pavlov

     https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:TN2y62U9b3kJ:https://www.amnesty.org/download/Documents/EUR5016832015ENGLISH.pdf+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=nz&client=firefox-b
9. marty mars 9

   18 October 2016 at 10:14 am

   Worth a read to know what’s going on.

   https://intercontinentalcry.org/15-indigenous-struggles-need-know/
   • weka 9.1

     18 October 2016 at 10:40 am

     good read. And that’s just in the Americas.

     That photo of the man whose village has just been burnt is very moving.
10. dv 10

    18 October 2016 at 10:22 am

    Oh lookie 1Billion for the homeless!!!!

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/85448143/government-to-spend-1b-to-sleep-1800-more-prisoners
    • Muttonbird 10.1

      18 October 2016 at 11:15 am

      Lock ’em up! Lock ’em all up!

      Frank admission from Collins that the current government social and economic policies are producing more serious offenders.

      Also, she calls 1800 new prisoners “an investment”.

      http://www.newshub.co.nz/politics/government-approves-1800-new-prison-beds-2016101809
      • Sabine 10.1.1

        18 October 2016 at 2:13 pm

        well in a world where prisons are profit centres creating new prisoners is indeed an investment.
11. pat 11

    18 October 2016 at 10:25 am

    Vigilantism and intolerance on the rise….

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/oct/17/thai-woman-accused-of-insulting-late-king-bhumibol-adulyadej-forced-to-kneel-koh-samui

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/oct/17/duterte-says-children-killed-in-philippines-drug-war-are-collateral-damage

    http://www.alternet.org/world/india-cusp-between-modernity-and-madness-beef-ban-vigilantism

    Think we are immune?..

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/85386340/tribal-huk-clears-ngaruawahia-of-p-dealers-as-promised

    Slippery slope.
    • weka 11.1

      18 October 2016 at 10:45 am

      I don’t have too much of a problem with that last article, on the face of it at least. If people from that community can deal with the problem when the police and justice system can’t, then that seems an appropriate interim measure. If we lived in a sane society, local authorities and NGOs would start working with the gang to support them in their more social justice work e.g. the feeding kids thing.

      Comments under that article are interesting too.
      • pat 11.1.1

        18 October 2016 at 11:47 am

        it is not a giant stride from Tribal Huk to Duterte …

        http://www.stuff.co.nz/manawatu-standard/news/85201396/Skeletal-remains-found-in-gang-member-search-area

        …and Im not sure who decides what is appropriate mourning…. or by extension religion,sexuality, work ethic or even race.
        Would you have much of a problem had the target had been a bottle store owner?….or any other person that offends some other/s?
        • weka 11.1.1.1

          18 October 2016 at 11:56 am

          It’s not about offence. If the bottle store owner was going out and pushing spirits onto teens in a way that actively contributed towards alcoholism and degeneration of the community and the police were not able to stop that, then I probably wouldn’t have too much of a problem with locals stepping up and taking action (within limits).

          I don’t understand the relevance of the link. Are you saying that all gangs are the same degree of badness? No gangs should be given credit for the good things they do?
          • pat 11.1.1.1.1

            18 October 2016 at 12:06 pm

            Surprised you wish to conflate the posts with gangs (although it is mob mentality)
            The original post was headed “vigilantism and intolerance on the rise”…and with it extreme behaviours….I wonder if you would have been as accepting had the target been someone other than an alleged drug dealer….i note that it has been reported Duterte’s extrajudicial killings have been used as cover for other motives.
            • weka 11.1.1.1.1.1

              18 October 2016 at 12:14 pm

              What I’m arguing is that what is vigilantism in one situation might be useful community action in another. I think you want to condemn all of them on principle, is that right? Because people shouldn’t take the law into their own hands? Whereas I think look at each situation and decide if there is more good than evil being done. That’s why I chose to focus on the gangs, because I’ve been finding the situation with Tribal Huk interesting.

              The ‘intolerance’ shown by Tribal Huk for P dealer who are selling drugs to teenagers seems appropriate to me.
              • pat …

                18 October 2016 at 12:22 pm

                Alleged P dealer
                • pat …

                  18 October 2016 at 12:34 pm

                  I seem to recall similar actions against alleged homosexuals not too long ago due to the “threat to the children”…were you equally accepting of that?
                  • weka …

                    18 October 2016 at 4:23 pm

                    Obviously not. I’ve already told you I think I think context is important.
                    • pat …

                      18 October 2016 at 4:38 pm

                      Im sure those dealing to gays thought their context was fine as well
                    • weka …

                      18 October 2016 at 4:44 pm

                      Of course, and we stood up against that and changed it.

                      You seem to be arguing a principle, which is laudable, I just don’t think IS, Nazis and active homophobes are going to take any notice of it so it’s a bit moot.
              • Bill …

                18 October 2016 at 12:23 pm

                Unless it’s the entire community that’s affected that has come up with a plan of action, then nah.

                Me and my mates think P dealers ought to go? Big hurrahs.

                Me and my mates also reckon corner dairies shouldn’t sell alcohol? Big hurrahs.

                And so on, gaining kudos or whatever, before it it slides into me and my mates calling the shots.
                • weka …

                  18 October 2016 at 12:34 pm

                  “Unless it’s the entire community that’s affected that has come up with a plan of action, then nah.”

                  hmm, I think when we’ve had conversations around community in the past you’ve said it’s on the people who are affected by something.

                  “Me and my mates think P dealers ought to go? Big hurrahs.

                  Me and my mates also reckon corner dairies shouldn’t sell alcohol? Big hurrahs.”

                  Me and my mates think that the P dealers who are selling P to teenagers are a problem and we’re going to do something about it more like. Are corner dairies selling alcohol causing the same kinds or degree of problems?
                  • Bill …

                    18 October 2016 at 1:04 pm

                    Everyone that’s affected must be included, ie, given a genuine opportunity and encouragement to participate in whatever decision and/or course of action meaningfully – yes.

                    otherwise…

                    me and my mates reckon corner dairies shouldn’t sell alcohol and if you ain’t agreeing with that, then maybe you’re a part of the problem….
                    • weka …

                      18 October 2016 at 2:28 pm

                      Everyone that’s affected must be included, ie, given a genuine opportunity and encouragement to participate in whatever decision and/or course of action meaningfully – yes.

                      That’s the ideal, and it would be interesting to consider how that could happen e.g. a meeting where the P dealers could speak publicly, or where people would the people scared of the gangs could be in a room with the gangs. Meanwhile, in Ngaruawahia they don’t have that capacity.
                    • Bill …

                      18 October 2016 at 3:32 pm

                      I have absolutely no idea what the organisational capacity of the community is. But whatever its limits may or may not be, vigilantism is not ever community action and always comes with the same toxic side effects/risks. (I’ve outlined those – the rise of an illegitimate and unaccountable (usually) moral authority)
                    • weka …

                      18 October 2016 at 4:26 pm

                      I’m pretty sure we can rule out P dealers being able to attend public meetings, for obvious legal reasons.

                      “But whatever its limits may or may not be, vigilantism is not ever community action and always comes with the same toxic side effects/risks.”

                      And what if the community says go for it?

                      btw, the Breakfast video in one the links is probably a more convincing argument for not supporting the Tribal Huk’s action. Gross.
                    • Bill …

                      18 October 2016 at 5:01 pm

                      Not seeing what legal reason there is that would prevent a P dealer from attending a public meeting.

                      If a community has decided on a course of action, then it isn’t vigilantism.
                    • weka …

                      18 October 2016 at 7:31 pm

                      if they want to talk about dealing P and there are also police in the room, then I suspect that’s a problem.
          • Bill 11.1.1.1.2

            18 October 2016 at 12:18 pm

            Did anyone ask the P addicts what they wanted done? Did they have any say in anything at all? What happens to them and their need for a fix ‘today’? Any support in place for them or are they just being left to twist in the breeze?

            Whoop. No P dealers….in this street/this neighbourhood/this town. Chased out they were. Now what? Chase out ‘the bloody kids’ who want to take the stuff?

            Agree Pat, that it’s the same social mentality (a part of the same sliding scale) that’s fueling and excusing wide-scale killings in the Philippines. And y’know, I dare say Duterte does some ‘lunch sandwich’ stuff too that’s welcome and appreciated.

            It’s all fucking fucked.
            • adam 11.1.1.1.2.1

              18 October 2016 at 12:35 pm

              Gang A is just pissed, gang B moved in on their turf.

              Don’t worry though, gang A will sell them another drug, because profit is the real motivation here!

              When drugs are illegal, it’s all about the gangsters.

              Who cares if it’s a health issue when there is a buck to be made…
              • Bill …

                18 October 2016 at 12:55 pm

                Thankyou Adam. On one of the few occasions I made a conscious decision to not be cynical… 😉
                • adam …

                  18 October 2016 at 6:47 pm

                  SOZ my cynical day stepping on yours…
            • weka 11.1.1.1.2.2

              18 October 2016 at 12:36 pm

              I agree re the users’ needs, but I tend to think the solution there is to support users not argue against reducing P dealing to teens.
              • Bill …

                18 October 2016 at 12:56 pm

                I’ve not argued against reducing P dealing to teens.
                • weka …

                  18 October 2016 at 1:09 pm

                  Likewise I haven’t argued for leaving P users to their fate or free for all vigilantism against alcohol selling dairies.
                  • Bill …

                    18 October 2016 at 1:32 pm

                    When you endorsed the vigilantism of “Huk” as appropriate, – “The ‘intolerance’ shown by Tribal Huk for P dealer who are selling drugs to teenagers seems appropriate to me.” – where were the addicts?

                    Draw whatever line you prefer between supposedly acceptable vigilantism and unacceptable vigilantism. You don’t think it’s dairies? Choose something else. Though it’s the vigilantes, having been empowered through endorsement that actually get to choose (that was my point when referencing dairies).

                    The downward slope heads out in a precise direction and ends in an unsavoury place.
                    • weka …

                      18 October 2016 at 2:22 pm

                      When you endorsed the vigilantism of “Huk” as appropriate, – “The ‘intolerance’ shown by Tribal Huk for P dealer who are selling drugs to teenagers seems appropriate to me.” – where were the addicts?

                      Probably the same place as the teenagers being targeted by P dealers when you categorically opposed what Tribal Huk did.

                      Draw whatever line you prefer between supposedly acceptable vigilantism and unacceptable vigilantism. You don’t think it’s dairies? Choose something else. Though it’s the vigilantes, having been empowered through endorsement that actually get to choose (that was my point when referencing dairies).

                      The downward slope heads out in a precise direction and ends in an unsavoury place.

                      That sounds right if we were saying living in a society based on anarchism. But I think there are enough natural limits in NZ due to the state, the police force and the justice system for it to not go down that slope.

                      Pat is arguing the principle, you are arguing the ideal (“Everyone that’s affected must be included, ie, given a genuine opportunity and encouragement to participate in whatever decision and/or course of action meaningfully – yes.”), I’m arguing the pragmatics of what can happen in that community right now. I guess Pat wants it left up to the state. I’m not sure what you want (but I assume not leaving it to the state). I’m saying that on the face of it, I don’t have too much of a problem with it. That’s not actually an endorsement of vigilantism in the way you are suggesting.

                      Another example might be friends and relatives getting together and putting a stop to a rapist where there is no chance of that happening via the legal system. It happens, it’s not without risk (in a number of ways to various people), I don’t endorse it but I don’t have too much of a problem when it happens where there are few other meaningful choices.

                      edited.
                    • Bill …

                      18 October 2016 at 3:52 pm

                      To be clear. I’ve agreed that an unaccountable sub-group within a community making unilateral decisions based only on their own notions of right and wrong and following through on their own notions of appropriate action with no thought for wider repercussions within the community, just can’t clear any reasonable bar of justification and so therefor can’t be condoned.

                      Odd that you argue any downward slope leading off from that could only happen in a society basing itself on anarchist principles when vigilantism flies so directly in the face of anarchist principles of democracy and democratic accountability .

                      The Philippines (occupying a space further along the spectrum or down the slope) definitely isn’t a society that embraces anarchist principles. Neither is India (the other example from the original list of links I opened).
                    • weka …

                      18 October 2016 at 4:20 pm

                      I’ve agreed that an unaccountable sub-group within a community making unilateral decisions based only on their own notions of right and wrong and following through on their own notions of appropriate action with no thought for wider repercussions within the community, just can’t clear any reasonable bar of justification and so therefor can’t be condoned.

                      I’m not sure that Tribal Huk are unaccountable in that absolute way. They went to a public meeting, they appear to have some support in the community. I’m wondering if they have levels of accountability within the hapū and iwi structures locally. This is why I said on the face of it, we don’t really know what happens there.

                      Odd that you argue any downward slope leading off from that could only happen in a society basing itself on anarchist principles when vigilantism flies so directly in the face of anarchist principles of democracy and democratic accountability .

                      I didn’t use the word only. Nor did I imply inevitability. I gave that as a counterpoint to my point that the State structure in NZ would stop the slippery slope.

                      (and as an aside, I’ve yet to hear the explanation about how anarchist societies do or would manage people who behaved in other ways, e.g. via vigilantism. But that’s an old argument).

                      The Philippines (occupying a space further along the spectrum or down the slope) definitely isn’t a society that embraces anarchist principles. Neither is India (the other example from the original list of links I opened).

                      That doesn’t have anything to do with my points though. I’m not saying that vigilantism is good, never a problem, or never a slippery slope. I haven’t looked at the other links.
            • pat 11.1.1.1.2.3

              18 October 2016 at 12:49 pm

              First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
              Because I was not a Socialist.

              Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
              Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

              Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
              Because I was not a Jew.

              Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

              Martin Niemoller
              • weka …

                18 October 2016 at 1:11 pm

                Then they came for P dealers who were selling addictive drugs to kids.

                Doesn’t have the same ring to it. I don’t know the original context for Niemoller’s quote but I don’t think he was arguing what you are arguing (feel free to clarify what you mean though).
                • pat …

                  18 October 2016 at 1:46 pm

                  I think Niemoller was arguing exactly what I am….and if you don’t know the original context, thats a massive assumption on your part…

                  first they came for the (alleged) drug pushers….and i did not speak out because I was not a drug dealer

                  then they came for the pedophiles…and I did not speak out because I was not a pedophile

                  then they came for the misogynists…and i did not speak out because I was not a misogynist

                  then they came for the morally superior….
                  • McFlock …

                    18 October 2016 at 1:58 pm

                    Well, no, Martin Niemöller was not arguing that criminals should not be punished. Just that we should speak out when the innocent are punished, even if we ourselves are not targets or don’t even particularly like the targets. It’s about the community protecting each other from unjustified persecution to protect themselves from the same.

                    Frankly, applying that to pedophiles and p dealers is a travesty, in my opinion.
                    • pat …

                      18 October 2016 at 2:07 pm

                      and who decides the innocent?…in Nazi Germany all those named by Niemoller were considered criminals, just as less than three decades ago homosexuals here were considered criminal and were run out of town just like our alleged P pushers…when you allow insanity to prevail no-one is safe nor immune…..not even those passing judgement.
                    • McFlock …

                      18 October 2016 at 2:11 pm

                      Are you really saying that you can see no fundamental difference between a trade unionist and a pedophile?
                    • pat …

                      18 October 2016 at 2:17 pm

                      the point is those making the judgement may not…..ISIS consider anyone not adhering to their version of Islam fair game, just as many appear to think dispensing vigilante justice to alleged drug dealers think they are justified…just because you rate trade unionists highly don’t believe there are not many who would like to see trade unions a part of a distant past….by any means.
                    • weka …

                      18 October 2016 at 2:25 pm

                      “and who decides the innocent?”

                      In NZ the State does. And the state takes action against people, including violent action, as it sees fit, even against the values of its citizens at times. Someone is deciding where it is ok to intervene.

                      McFlock, thanks for the comment re Niemoller, that’s how I’ve always understood that quote.
                    • McFlock …

                      18 October 2016 at 2:25 pm

                      But that wasn’t what I asked.
                      P dealers and pedophiles have victims. Trade unionists, Jews and homosexuals do not. I’m astonished that this had to be spelled out for you.

                      Niemöller wasn’t arguing what sort of process should be used by society to enforce its rules – Nazi detentions and murders often took place under the cloak of legislative legitimacy, not mob rule. What he was saying is that we should speak out against manifest injustices in our society.

                      When it comes to p dealers and pedophiles, the threshold for “manifest injustice” is raised a lot higher than for victimless beliefs or even victimless characteristics.
                    • pat …

                      18 October 2016 at 2:41 pm

                      “t’s about the community protecting each other from unjustified persecution to protect themselves from the same.”
                      ….and as far as the German government of the day were concerned the persecution was justified, whether you accept that or not.

                      “Niemöller wasn’t arguing what sort of process should be used by society to enforce its rules – Nazi detentions and murders often took place under the cloak of legislative legitimacy, not mob rule. What he was saying is that we should speak out against manifest injustices in our society.”

                      Nazi detentions and murders happened under both mob rule and legal cloak…you state those illegal groups had no victims yet that was not the position of the government nor many of the population who blamed all the mentioned groups for all sorts of social ills and crimes.

                      I further note that the similarity to actions against homosexuals in our recent past has been neatly ignored.

                      Who decides the innocent….”In NZ the State does”
                      No ,the Judiciary do…through due process…not mob rule.

                      “I’m astonished that this had to be spelled out for you.”

                      Ditto
                    • McFlock …

                      18 October 2016 at 2:51 pm

                      So the judiciary decides it, even though in the government that Niemöller was talking about the judiciary made that judgement in a manifestly unjust manner and that’s what Niemöller was saying he should have worked harder at opposing.

                      Niemöller wasn’t talking about the manner in which unjust rulings were made, he was talking about what our reactions should be to manifestly unjust rulings. Not whether it was done by courts or mobs, just whether it was unjust. And if it’s unjust, we should stand against it.

                      How is kicking out p dealers manifestly unjust?
                    • weka …

                      18 October 2016 at 2:53 pm

                      “Who decides the innocent….”In NZ the State does”
                      No ,the Judiciary do…through due process…not mob rule.”

                      Yes, and the State rewrites the laws that they act within.

                      “not mob rule”

                      And yet if you are a woman who has been raped or a young Māori man who’s broken the law you will get a different kind of justice than if you are not. So this idea that we’re getting to now, that the State has a good process but people taking justice into their owns hands don’t is flawed. Hence my original comment about not having too much of a problem with what Tribal Huk did on the face of it.
                    • pat …

                      18 October 2016 at 3:19 pm

                      “How is kicking out p dealers manifestly unjust?”

                      this is not about P dealers (alleged) per se…..it is about the rise of vigilantism and intolerance, and the increasingly extreme behaviours associated with that
                    • McFlock …

                      18 October 2016 at 3:34 pm

                      this is not about P dealers (alleged) per se…..it is about the rise of vigilantism and intolerance, and the increasingly extreme behaviours associated with that

                      Whoa there, vigilantism and intolerance are two different things.

                      Vigilantism is what happens when people perceive the legal system as inadequate, and there are good arguments against it. In some circumstances, such as the degradation of society, it might be necessary, however.

                      Some things should not be tolerated. At all. You brought up pedophilia, for example.

                      Other things that don’t victimise other people, such as being Jewish or gay, should be tolerated and defended.

                      If your problem is with vigilantism, you chose a reference that doesn’t actually address it at all. “To Kill a Mockingbird”, or even the old Peter Lorre movie “M” would be applicable. Hell, even Eastwood’s “Hang ‘Em High”. Not Niemöller.

                      If you think we should “tolerate” p dealers, I do not agree at all.
                  • Stuart Munro …

                    18 October 2016 at 3:57 pm

                    You might question whether the Huks actually came for the P dealers. Or did they merely frighten them away. Sure intimidation is not beautiful, but neither is selling the more destructive drugs into a community. Of the possible outcomes this one seems relatively benign.
                    • weka …

                      18 October 2016 at 4:20 pm

                      According to the MSM, at least one of the P dealers got beaten up.
                • pat …

                  18 October 2016 at 3:15 pm

                  lol…ah i don’t often agree with CV (less and less these days) but he is right …you are very adroit at ducking and weaving but never quite well enough to hide the hypocrisy
                  • McFlock …

                    18 October 2016 at 3:25 pm

                    I’ve kept to a pretty simple point: Niemöller’s comment was about our reaction to injustice, not about the manner in which the injustice was arrived at. And where p dealers and pedophiles are concerned, it’s a bit more difficult to react to their behaviour in an unjust manner than in response to victimless things like “being Jewish”. Any response purely based on the last is unjust. People tend to be more equivocal about how far you can go with a pedophile before it’s an injustice.
                    • pat …

                      18 October 2016 at 3:31 pm

                      and in return Ill keep it simple…..we have developed a legal system for a reason, and if your lucky enough to live in a country where the Judiciary is removed from the Government then we should use it as intended…..otherwise we may as well have mob rule.

                      There is no halfway house.

                      And as the Niemoller quote illustrates no one wins then….not even those who think they are right.
                    • weka …

                      18 October 2016 at 3:37 pm

                      and what about when the justice system isn’t being used as intended, or where it is but that doesn’t serve the people?
                    • McFlock …

                      18 October 2016 at 3:43 pm

                      ok, two points:

                      firstly, that’s not what Niemöller’s poem illustrates at all, if only because the Nazi judicial system was not always mob rule, and also happened under legal cloak. Niemöller was talking about his behaviour and inactivity in that environment, so if anything it’s about the consequences of political apathy.

                      secondly, a legal system that fails to address endemic social harms and crimes leaves a vacuum, a void between everything that should be enforced and that which actually is enforced. When that gap gets too large, that’s when vigilantism and mob justice occurs. This doesn’t mean that an injustice occurs (although it increases the likelihood). It just means that the formal legal system is failing to do its job (usually because it’s become alienated from sectors of the community).
                    • pat …

                      18 October 2016 at 3:55 pm

                      “firstly, that’s not what Niemöller’s poem illustrates at all,”

                      No?….he used that quote on many occasions over the years , more often than not outside of the Nazi context, but id be delighted to hear your deconstruction.

                      “secondly, a legal system that fails to address endemic social harms and crimes leaves a vacuum,”

                      and filling that vacuum with mob rule leads to what?
                    • McFlock …

                      18 October 2016 at 4:23 pm

                      “firstly, that’s not what Niemöller’s poem illustrates at all,”

                      No?….he used that quote on many occasions over the years , more often than not outside of the Nazi context, but id be delighted to hear your deconstruction.

                      @pat Political apathy. Not speaking out about injustice. How many times did he use it in the context of a mob, as opposed to general injustice?

                      “secondly, a legal system that fails to address endemic social harms and crimes leaves a vacuum,”

                      and filling that vacuum with mob rule leads to what?

                      Complete decay of a system that’s alienated from the population.
                      Nobody here, as far as I can tell, is saying that it’s a good thing that the police are so ineffectual in this matter that they’ve been sidelined. Just that the gang’s threat is a normal and, in the absence of formal effective law enforcement, a legitimate response to a serious social harm.
                  • weka …

                    18 October 2016 at 3:36 pm

                    I can’t tell which comment you are referring to, so it’s hard to know what you are on about. By all means have a go and point out the hypocrisy.
                    • pat …

                      18 October 2016 at 3:41 pm

                      “I further note that the similarity to actions against homosexuals in our recent past has been neatly ignored.”
                    • weka …

                      18 October 2016 at 3:54 pm

                      pat, can you please start using @McFlock, @weka etc. It’s impossible to know who you are talking to or what you mean.

                      “I further note that the similarity to actions against homosexuals in our recent past has been neatly ignored.”

                      That appears to be a reply to my saying point out my hypocrisy. Yet it’s a comment from you to McFlock, which I didn’t respond to. What?
                  • McFlock …

                    18 October 2016 at 3:49 pm

                    “I further note that the similarity to actions against homosexuals in our recent past has been neatly ignored.”

                    Not ignored. Exactly as victimless as being Jewish or a unionist. Illegal in NZ until thirty years ago – until enough people started saying things against that injustice. And same-sex marriage was illegal until very recently, and many of the people who spoke out against that injustice weren’t intending to marry people of the same sex.

                    Funny how when enough people say something, the world improves slightly. And if we all say nothing, the world gets worse until finally there’s nobody around to say something for us.
                    • pat …

                      18 October 2016 at 4:01 pm

                      @ Weka

                      https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-18102016/#comment-1246800
          • reason 11.1.1.1.3

            18 October 2016 at 8:02 pm

            Steinlager All blacks and Alco pops weka ……………….$200 million per year in marketing/pushing ….

            Pro-Alcohol laws passed under urgency ……….
12. save nz 12

    18 October 2016 at 10:39 am

    Just been reading this blogpost (link below) which popped up on TS feed section. Agree with many of his ideas – but but not his conclusion – and he makes the mistake of thinking just because we have low density in NZ, we should automatically fill it up with people and immigration is a great idea.

    looking at the density argument. If we have the amazon rain forest, should we just start building there because it is a ‘low density opportunity in South America? Nope – time we start to value the environment and actually try to preserve some Green spaces left in the world (including countries that for whatever reason are not filled up with people, cars and houses).

    How the hell can we keep biodiversity, natural environment with that sort of thinking? Wow there’s a free green space, (Actually probably a thriving ecosystem) but in the eyes of some, Yay lets utilise it by importing someone from he other side of the world to live there.

    Sorry I think the way forward with climate change is to actually embrace what little green (and water) space we have got left, live with less consumerism and move trade into a more electronic format but food production more local, make taxes fair, and try not to repopulate every last centimetre of the world with people.

    I get many people are migrants here, or forced to be migrants else where by government conditions, but moving people around is not solving the problems it is enabling neoliberalism and the resulting problems to dominate and mask that economically it is not working.

    http://bat-bean-beam.blogspot.co.nz/2016/10/on-need-for-sustainable-immigration.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+BatBeanBeam-AWeblogOnMemoryAndTechnology+(Bat,+Bean,+Beam+-+A+Weblog+on+Memory+and+Technology)
    • weka 12.1

      18 October 2016 at 10:50 am

      As someone who has often lived in sparsely populated areas that part of his argument made me cringe. He lives in Wellington, so good on him if he wants high density there, but fuck a policy that says everywhere else should be filled up. Empty spaces have value for many reasons, and I don’t see too much difference between his attitude there and colonisation ethics that thought that because the land wasn’t ploughed it wasn’t being used (or was empty).

      I haven’t read the GP policy change yet, but I too would hope we could look at what a steady state might be, and then use our relative wealth to support other places to do the same. We should of course be taking far more refugees.
      • mauī 12.1.1

        18 October 2016 at 11:52 am

        I got the impression the writer was saying we need to allow more immigration because refugees are in huge danger and need a home, not because he particularly wants to ruin our countryside. It’s a strong moral argument and I find it difficult to argue against.

        Many of the countries where the refugees are coming from are going to take a long time to repair to become habitable again, and some may not be habitable again. That’s the “nice” solution most people want I guess. Look we’ll fix up your home so you can go back and then we hopefully don’t have to deal with you again.
        • save nz 12.1.1.1

          18 October 2016 at 12:19 pm

          Our current refugee quota is pitiful. I’m all for increasing the refugee quota. But doubling, tripling of refugee quota is nothing, compared to the current 69,000 migrants and 166,000 work visas being given out by the government. Economic migration of people with 10 million to spend or the skills category providing low paid Chef’s for SkyCity and fruit pickers for industry, is completely different to Refugees.
          • Chooky 12.1.1.1.1

            18 October 2016 at 6:03 pm

            +100 save nz…refugees are different from economic migration
    • Bill 12.2

      18 October 2016 at 12:50 pm

      At one fifteenth the population density of the UK and given that the UK has screeds of open spaces, I’m not buying this nonsense that immigration will suddenly see NZ turned into some kind of endless concrete jungle.

      Refugees need the support of other refugees – a sense of continuity and community. Larger numbers, not a few placed here and a few placed there, are required to ensure that. Taking only a few and dispersing them, ensures that a bogus argument about ‘lack of resources’ gains traction. It’s a manufactured scenario designed to excuse turning our backs on refugees and ensure that we’ll always have that excuse as a fall back.

      On general immigration, well…we need to overhaul our infrastructure as a matter of urgency given the path we’re on with CC. We’re not doing it (hell mend us), but could quite easily get onto it, alongside any necessary expansion of those infrastructures, if we had, besides the political will and intelligence, the numbers of people required to do it.

      Wouldn’t it make sense if, instead of asking about how many millions a person can invest (by way of fast tracking), we looked at how much of a real world contribution to NZ preparedness they could make by way of fast tracking? A lot of what needs done isn’t particularly skilled – but it will take numbers.

      There will be an optimum number with regards immigrants. I’ve no idea what that might be. Maybe some academic papers that take into account NZs actual real world requirements has been published? No – of course not.
      • Ad 12.2.1

        18 October 2016 at 2:31 pm

        So should immigration levels into New Zealand be increased, or decreased?
13. Puckish Rogue 13

    18 October 2016 at 11:03 am

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/entertainment/news/article.cfm?c_id=1501119&objectid=11730968

    I’m tempted to say something negative but…well…anyone that produces a one-two combo of Face Value and Hello, I Must Be Going gets to put out as many albums as they like

    and I don’t care what anyone else thinks dammit 🙂
14. joe90 14

    18 October 2016 at 11:07 am

    And we’re off!
    /

    A United Nations signatory, ToddandClare.com, has published a report on the official UN website asking the UN to stop Julian Assange from using the UN’s name to dismiss a European Arrest Warrant, following a Royal Bahamas Police Force Investigation into child sex offenses involving Mr Assange and ToddandClare.com.

    http://www.prweb.com/releases/united-nations-report/julian-assange-wikileaks/prweb13750603.htm
    • xanthe 14.1

      18 October 2016 at 11:52 am

      ahh toddandclare.com…. upstanding UN signatories…. a good bit of background perspective would be to go here
      https://www.toddandclare.com
      • weka 14.1.1

        18 October 2016 at 11:59 am

        I can’t quite figure the story out but this is probably a better link for people to get a grasp of it (plus joe’s link).

        https://www.toddandclare.com/datinglife/online-dating/united-nations-statement-julian-assange-wikileaks/
    • joe90 14.2

      18 October 2016 at 12:32 pm

      [lprent: See my comments at the end of this. Content hidden. ]

      Assange is alleged to have had video chats with the 8-year-old sister of a 22-year-old woman using an online dating site, toddandclare.com.

      During those chats, he allegedly performed sexual acts on camera and persuaded the 8-year-old to perform other acts on camera. Her parents reported this to the Royal Bahamas Police.

      THE ROYAL BAHAMAS POLICE INVESTIGATION (RBPF) AGAINST
      JULIAN ASSANGE: WHAT WE KNOW TO DATE

      1
      As a UN Global Compact member, ToddandClare.com is duty bound by
      United Nations regulations to bring the criminal child sex offenses investigation of
      the Royal Bahamas Police Force (RBPF Reference: Sgt Ferguson 1705 RBPF
      Thompson Boulevard) involving our business and Mr Julian Assange, to the UN’s
      attention.

      2.
      On Wednesday, September 28, 2016, ToddandClare.com’s Trust & Safety
      team was contacted by the father of an 8-year-old juvenile regarding a criminal
      investigation by the Royal Bahamas Police Force that contexts serious child sex
      offenses against the man’s young daughter. The juvenile is the younger sister of a
      22-year-old adult female ToddandClare.com user.

      3.
      Our understanding is that the RBPF Investigation (RBPF Reference: Sgt
      Ferguson 1705 RBPF Thompson Boulevard) is being handled by a specialist child
      protection unit of the Bahamas police authorities and relates to the child exploitation
      of an 8-year-old juvenile in Nassau, Bahamas using electronic/internet methods;
      prohibited use of an electronic communication system to procure a minor; child
      pornography production; and the luring of a minor online for sex, by Mr Julian
      Assange, who we understand has been identified from chatlogs.

      4.
      We understand the family involved are Canadian nationals, who were on
      a month long yachting vacation through the Bahamas, and residing as guests of Mrs.
      Mavis Darling-Hill, at the Darling-Hill’s poolside residence in the Blair Estates area
      of Nassau, New Providence.

      5.
      The investigation specifically pertains to Mr Assange’s remote use of our
      dating site, ToddandClare.com

      6.
      We understand the father was advised to contact Sgt Darrington Sands at
      the local Fox Hill police station. We understand initial contact with law enforcement
      was subsequently made with Sgt Symonatt for the Blair Estates area, at 10am, on
      September 28, 2016, in which the father reported the pedophile crimes against his 8- year-old daughter.

      7.
      We understand the Fox Hill duty officer subsequently transferred the
      family to urgently contact the Central Detective Unit of the Royal Bahamas Police
      Force on Thompson Boulevard in Nassau.

      8.
      We understand the family proceeded to make a formal complaint to
      Sergeant Ferguson at Thompson Boulevard on Wednesday, September 28, 2016 at
      12.40pm, that their 8-year-old juvenile daughter was sexually molested online by
      Julian Assange, through ToddandClare.com, and that Assange had been accessing
      the site from London, UK.

      9.
      We understand Julian Assange was clearly photo- and video- identified in
      the chatlogs by both the parents of the juvenile, and Mrs Darling-Hill, who is the
      Bahamas Social Services worker involved.

      10. We understand the chatlogs evidenced the 8-year-old juvenile was
      unlawfully made the subject of “internet grooming” by Mr Assange, which included
      propositioning the 8-year-old juvenile “to perform oral and anal sex acts”.

      11. We understand the family reported to the Bahamas authorities that Mr
      Assange sent the 8-year-old juvenile (i) unlawful, indecent images and video media
      of himself performing lewd acts on a mobile camera device, and (ii) unlawful
      obscenity materials of a child pornographic nature.

      12. Neither the 22 year old female nor the 8-year old juvenile had physically
      met offline with Mr Assange at any time.

      13. The family has no connection to Sweden, the UK, or the United States,
      and no connection with Julian Assange whatsoever. The family has made clear, at
      this extraordinarily sensitive time, their only priority is their 8-year-old’s wellbeing.

      14. These Royal Bahamas Police Force circumstances led to the immediate
      termination of the agreement between ToddandClare.com and Julian Assange, and
      forthwith, cancellation of all plans to film a video production for the KATIA Project
      with Mr Assange, who both we and the KATIA Project have completely
      disassociated from.

      15. No other users of ToddandClare.com are involved

      [lprent: Content removed ]

      https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:ruXBSKQHQtYJ:https://www.unglobalcompact.org/system/attachments/cop_2016/322211/original/ToddandClare.com_United_Nations_GC_Member_Report_COP_1042016.pdf%3F1475591336+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

      [lprent: There is a reason that this content has a link that is a google cache. The “member” has been delisted a few days after this document was created and uploaded as an attachment.

      In my opinion, this particular document and the organisation is likely to be a false flag operation and if probably both false and defamatory. If you don’t think that it is, then email me. Otherwise anyone repeating is likely to receive an immediate permanent ban. ]
      • Puckish Rogue 14.2.1

        18 October 2016 at 2:24 pm

        Damn…
      • McFlock 14.2.2

        18 October 2016 at 2:30 pm

        Wow.
        Did not suspect/expect that at all.
      • weka 14.2.3

        18 October 2016 at 2:45 pm

        Thanks joe, that’s much clearer.

        There’s more there about how they were working with Assange on their anti-rape message. Hard read. Pretty serious mistake them entering into an endorsement contract with Assange in the first place, but all kudos to them for now so meticulously documenting what happened.
        • Puckish Rogue 14.2.3.1

          18 October 2016 at 2:56 pm

          Puts those Swedish allegation sin new light…if whats being said is true of course
          • weka 14.2.3.1.1

            18 October 2016 at 3:09 pm

            I haven’t quite gotten my head around it all yet (e.g. what is meant by the UN support for Assange and why T&C fell out with the UN over that?), but mostly I’m just thinking here we go again, with all that entails.

            It’s strange that the media haven’t picked this up given the first press release was Oct 11.
          • Bill 14.2.3.1.2

            18 October 2016 at 3:22 pm

            Mrs Darling-Hill is both the host of the family and the Bahama’s social services worker who’s involved, yes?

            Chatlogs…those are historical, right?

            Assuming the “we understand” in the documentation is all true and correct, I’m somewhat curious as to when and how any contact between Assange and the other website user (the 22 year old daughter) became chats and/or what not between Assange and her 8 year old sister.
            • Puckish Rogue 14.2.3.1.2.1

              18 October 2016 at 3:39 pm

              Indeed, best not to rush into judgement until more facts are known
            • weka 14.2.3.1.2.2

              18 October 2016 at 3:41 pm

              8 year old has sister’s password? Older sister leaves the computer on and doesn’t log out?

              I’m curious as to, assuming the documentation is true, Assange could do something so stupid given his tech expertise (and by stupid I’m not referring to the sexual abuse, that’s something else entirely. I’m referring to his use of ICT).
            • xanthe 14.2.3.1.2.3

              18 October 2016 at 3:44 pm

              Yes i also followed up on Darling- hill she is the deputy director of social services in the bahamas govt. As well as the social worker involved as well as the host of the 8 year old (as well a patron of some local charities)

              Question how does an 8 year old get access to adult only account of 22 year old? and who bears responsibility for that ?

              Question did assange believe he was communicating with a 22 year old consenting female ?

              One thing is sure this is serious abuse of the 8 year old girl but by whom?

              I really do have an open mind but it looks just a bit too cute

              In any case i can see why the Equadorians took his internet access away.. fair enough. What a dumb thing to do
              • weka …

                18 October 2016 at 3:56 pm

                “Question how does an 8 year old get access to adult only account of 22 year old? and who bears responsibility for that ?”

                I think that’s a separate issue than Assange’s involvement or not in child abuse. Open internet is pretty ubiquitous, not for all children, but for enough.

                I agree the question of whether Assange knew he was interacting with a child is important.
            • joe90 14.2.3.1.2.4

              18 October 2016 at 3:46 pm

              As clear as mud.

              ( from the Kos article below)

              BY FAX

              Rt Hon Justin Trudeau
              Office of the Prime Minister of Canada
              80 Wellington Street
              Ottawa, ON K1A 0A2
              Date: 10.17.2016

              Sir,

              We’re writing on behalf of ToddandClare.com, a dating site in Houston with a legal obligation to our female members. We are officially requesting your offices to intervene on behalf of a vulnerable Canadian family who are distraught and frightened. The family attended 2 police stations in Nassau, Bahamas, on September 28, 2016, to report to the Royal Bahamas Police Force (RBPF) that their 8 year old daughter had been abused by Julian Assange using our dating service.

              The subsequent mishandling of the initial stages of the child sex investigation by the Royal Bahamas Police Force, and the way the RBPF have passed information ‘off the record’ to the UK tabloids, is of grave concern.

              The family say that they experienced anti-Caucasian racism in Nassau.

              They have told us they received unfavorable treatment by the RBPF on account of being white. They say that the Bahamas authorities were more interested in protecting the reputation of their island, and closing the case, than properly investigating their allegations of internet child abuse by Julian Assange, against a Canadian minor.

              The family left the Bahamas, because they did not wish to subject their 8 year old to a continued nightmare and anti-white, racist abuse by Bahamian police. In addition to the clear racial problem, this investigation is particularly sensitive. The way the facts of the case pertain to the family’s eldest daughter, a 22 year old college woman who is the elder sister of the 8 year old child, and who Assange contacted the minor through, could have wider legal implications for the young woman.

              continues – https://www.facebook.com/toddandclare/posts/1191392577583146

              http://www.dailykos.com/story/2016/10/17/1583749/-Julian-Assange-investigated-for-online-grooming-of-8-year-old-girl
              • weka …

                18 October 2016 at 3:58 pm

                hmm, ok, so the British tabloids have this? I can’t find anything online so far.
                • joe90 …

                  18 October 2016 at 6:15 pm

                  Sub judice?.
                  • Colonial Viper …

                    18 October 2016 at 6:29 pm

                    Not only is Assange a rapist, that so many people are absolutely sure of after swallowing the Deep State smear campaign against him holus bolus, but now he’s been found a pedo too, which I reckon the same people have always suspected deep inside would be totally the case for an over-geeky internet type like Assange.

                    Talk about lefties swimming in an ocean of confirmation bias.
                    • weka …

                      18 October 2016 at 7:22 pm

                      lolz, that was entirely predictable.
                    • Chooky …

                      18 October 2016 at 8:10 pm

                      +100 CV…it is a fascist smear campaign
    • weka 14.3

      18 October 2016 at 3:48 pm

      Daily Kos has picked it up, and notes,

      The Ecuador Embassy in London where Julian Assange has been living since June 2012 has cut his internet access (as reported by Wikileaks).

      There’s something about the social worker in there too, and why they fell out with the UN

      http://www.dailykos.com/story/2016/10/17/1583749/-Julian-Assange-investigated-for-online-grooming-of-8-year-old-girl

      The web cache link seems pretty clear, but some of the other tellings of the story (T&C’s website, the DK story) are a bit ramble. DK is raising some initial questions.
      • lprent 14.3.1

        18 October 2016 at 6:41 pm

        Shows all the signs of being a spoof. From the protestations of the “organisation” to the way that it was associated to a “official” report pulled out of a cache for a deleted account.

        Certainly defamatory if it is just a spoof.
        • weka 14.3.1.1

          18 October 2016 at 7:24 pm

          I keep looking at it and it kind of makes sense but then it doesn’t. That no media have picked up says heaps. The inconsistency in clarity between the cached report and the post on the organisation’s website was the oddest thing, looks like they’re written by different organisations, one very professional, the other not.

          So is the dating website a hoax too?
          • xanthe 14.3.1.1.1

            18 October 2016 at 7:32 pm

            IF (and that is still an IF) its a set up i beleve that the conduit will be the
            KINGDOR NATIONAL PARKINSON’S FOUNDATION

            which appears to be a wealthy charitable organisatiuon of which
            Mavis Darling-Hill is the founder off to search the panama papers now !
        • xanthe 14.3.1.2

          19 October 2016 at 9:28 am

          Wikileaks formally responds to this

          https://wikileaks.org/Background-and-Documents-on-Attempts-to-Frame-Assange-as-a-Pedophile-and.html?update3
          • xanthe 14.3.1.2.1

            19 October 2016 at 9:50 am

            OK I am convinced its a complete scam. The dating website never was anything more than a front page.
15. Adrian Thornton 15

    18 October 2016 at 12:00 pm

    Here is an interesting puzzle…. I have been emailing various RNZ presenters over the last 6 months with the following simple question…

    Would asking Jonathon Colman whether he has Public or Private health care be considered an ad hominem question?

    I had been in email exchanges with a couple of RNZ presenters prior to asking this question, then as soon as I asked the question I was completely closed down, very strange, not one response.
16. Puckish Rogue 16

    18 October 2016 at 12:33 pm

    How exactly does a teacher become a principal, everything about this guy suggests hes got no idea about…well anything

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11730576
17. Muttonbird 17

    18 October 2016 at 1:01 pm

    John Key’s ‘brighter future’…

    http://www.newshub.co.nz/nznews/suicide-rates-highest-since-records-began-2016101811

    Bear in mind his explanation for an increase in violent crime…

    Prime Minister John Key said the higher prisoner numbers reflected the changing nature of crime. “It’s a bit of an international trend: you saw overall crime rates falling internationally for a while and we were consistent with that, and they continue to fall in total numbers, but as I say, that hardened end [is] definitely going up a bit.”

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/85448143/government-to-spend-1b-to-sleep-1800-more-prisoners

    Perhaps he’ll try to spin the rise in suicide numbers not being a result of more desperate and suicidal people, but because they are more effective?
18. Siobhan 18

    18 October 2016 at 1:48 pm

    “A shop-bought helium balloon kit was taken from 76-year-old Nelson woman Patsy McGrath, who has long campaigned for euthanasia, on Friday, the Voluntary Euthanasia Society says.”

    So, was she turned in by a relative or friend determined to intervene in her plans, or are the Police using public profiles in a open legal process ie submission to the health committee, to make criminals of people who wish to control their own destinies.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11730905
    • Chooky 18.1

      18 October 2016 at 5:59 pm

      disgraceful Siobhan…it is her business and NO business of the police!
    • Chooky 18.2

      18 October 2016 at 8:08 pm

      surely the police have better things to do with their time than harrass a 76 year old woman?…are the Police being politicised?…in which case we have a Police State
19. Ovid 19

    18 October 2016 at 2:16 pm

    The USS Sampson a guided missile destroyer will visit for the 75th anniversary of the RNZN.

    I’ve been satisfied for quite some time now that a port visit by a US Navy vessel would not be in breach of our law (with the exception of aircraft carriers and submarines). Of course, I expect some people will take issue with US foreign policy and militarism, but this marks a diplomatic win for our longstanding anti-nuclear policy.
    • Puckish Rogue 19.1

      18 October 2016 at 2:25 pm

      A win all round
    • Muttonbird 19.2

      18 October 2016 at 5:30 pm

      I take it the US neither confirm nor deny policy is still in place? Looks to me that New Zealand has backed down by no longer asking the question.
20. fisiani 20

    18 October 2016 at 3:39 pm

    Who has Labour chosen to lose to Chris Bishop in Lower Hutt?
21. james 21

    18 October 2016 at 3:56 pm

    Julian from Wikileaks has had his internet privileges removed.

    http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-cyber-wikileaks-idUSKBN12H2E9

    Its going to get bloody boring being holed up like that moving forward…

    Perhaps this will give him motivation to move out.
    • weka 21.1

      18 October 2016 at 4:22 pm

      look upthread.
      • James 21.1.1

        18 October 2016 at 5:33 pm

        Oh.

        That’s not good.
22. Chooky 22

    18 October 2016 at 6:06 pm

    Watch out for ‘Smash and Grab Banks’ like the Royal Bank of Scotland( are the banksters waiting in the shadows of a bank near you?)

    …the banksters are after your life savings and assets… a mad Scotsman speaks out and gives his story

    (once upon a time it was highway men …now it is banksters)

    Commoners Watch Out!

    https://www.rt.com/shows/keiser-report/362856-episode-max-keiser-980/

    “Max and Stacy are joined by Joel Benjamin, local authority debt audit campaigner with Debt Resistance UK, and Nigel Henderson, who lost his hotel business to RBS’s restructuring division, to talk of the ‘stunned commoners’ in awe (at the brazenness) of the Royal… Bank of Scotland.

    Nigel recounts his own encounter with RBS’s smash and grab unit which saw him lose his hotel in Scotland.

    They discuss the tens of billions in fines the bank, taxpayer-owned RBS, faces from US authorities for the bank’s role in the mortgage backed securities fraud and whether or not there will be anything left for compensation of the thousands of small and medium sized enterprises destroyed in the UK.”

    …and in retribution to RT? (banksters fight back)

    ‘Cancellation of RT UK’s bank account ‘crude British state propaganda’ – Galloway (VIDEO)’

    https://www.rt.com/uk/363068-galloway-rt-nat-west/

    ‘Oliver Stone on RT bank account closure: ‘It’s a media war and UK sees you as a threat’ ‘

    https://www.rt.com/news/363093-media-war-stone-rt-bank/

    ‘Backtracking from ‘no discussion’? UK bank says it will review closure of RT accounts’

    https://www.rt.com/news/363086-uk-bank-rt-review-closure/
    • Peter Swift 22.1

      18 October 2016 at 6:21 pm

      Link to five anti Putin/Russia stories aired on RT, the state controlled news org.
      • Colonial Viper 22.1.1

        18 October 2016 at 6:35 pm

        Fuck off, you first. Link to three pro Putin stories in the state controlled Washington Post in the last 3 years.

        That will say something about how Putin is being used as the new scapegoat for every US imperial failure in the world.
        • Peter Swift 22.1.1.1

          18 October 2016 at 6:42 pm

          One will do, Putin’s state sponsored, apologist pussy cat. I’ll wait. lol
          • Colonial Viper 22.1.1.1.1

            18 October 2016 at 8:03 pm

            RT frequently mentions criticisms of Putin, but does not make allegations against him.

            Now, show me 3 recent Washington Post articles which are pro-putin.
            • McFlock 22.1.1.1.1.1

              18 October 2016 at 10:02 pm

              lol
              no link? You’re probably looking for one of those “frequent” articles, right now…
              • Peter Swift …

                18 October 2016 at 11:31 pm

                So not one link to an anti Putin post on the RT network.
                Thanks for that, comradeski. lol
                Your propaganda source is duly and cruelly noted.
      • Chooky 22.1.2

        18 October 2016 at 8:02 pm

        @ Peter Swift …how about address the content of this?..it is a British story

        …these are two Brits and two Americans, all well qualified, having a discussion about the practices of the ‘Royal Bank of Scotland’ which has destroyed thousands of small and medium sized enterprises in the UK

        …do you these people are telling fibs ?…I don’t think so
23. Bill 23

    18 October 2016 at 7:47 pm

    I sometimes struggled and sometimes guffawed my way through that diatribe before hitting this clanger or alarm bell or whatever you might want to call it towards the very end.

    Like the UN Working Group on Arbitrary Detention’s misguided support for a fugitive rapist,
    • joe90 23.1

      18 October 2016 at 7:57 pm

      Yup, a clanger.
      /

      A United Nations panel has decided that Julian Assange’s three-and-a-half years in the Ecuadorian embassy amount to “arbitrary detention”, leading his lawyers to call for the Swedish extradition request to be dropped immediately.

      A Swedish foreign ministry spokeswoman confirmed that the UN panel, due to publish its findings on Friday, had concluded that Assange was “arbitrarily detained”.

      The WikiLeaks founder sought asylum from Ecuador in June 2012 to avoid extradition to Sweden to face questioning over rape and sexual assault allegations, which he denies.

      The panel’s findings were disclosed to the Swedish and British governments on 22 January, and will be published on Friday morning. Their judgment is not legally binding but can be used to apply pressure on states in human rights cases.

      https://www.theguardian.com/media/2016/feb/04/julian-assange-wikileaks-arrest-friday-un-investigation
24. weka 24

    18 October 2016 at 11:26 pm

    [In order to keep OM and DR free for other conversations, all comments, link postings etc about the US election now need to go in the dedicated US election discussion here.

    If you are unsure, post in that thread rather than here. It’s not possible for moderators to shift posts from OM to there, so any comments here may get deleted – weka]
    • Incognito 24.1

      18 October 2016 at 7:31 am

      Please don’t tell us who won!

      [now you know the moderators’ super powers, ha ha. (trying to keep this comment highlighted at the bottom so people coming in off the comments list see it) – weka]

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