[Please note, we are trialling something new for Open Mike and Daily Review.
In order to keep OM and DR free for other conversations, all comments, link postings etc about the US election now need to go in the dedicated US election discussion here.
If you are unsure, post in that thread rather than here. It’s not possible for moderators to shift posts from OM to there, so any comments here may get deleted.
Prime Minister John Key has joined with a new ally – after saying he supports the Ngaruawahia gang Tribal Huk’s efforts to address the methamphetamine crisis.
The Waikato town’s gang gave P dealers until 6:30pm on Friday to leave or they would be run out of town – with president Jamie Pink saying violence would be used if necessary.
Tribal Huk’s 24-hour warning to Ngaruawahia meth dealers expires Ngaruawahia silent as meth-dealing deadline passes It’s a move Mr Key says he welcomes.
“Obviously we welcome any support to do something like that so long as it’s legal of course,” he said on Monday.
I thought the war on P was going so well, but vigilantes do it better than the law?
He’s a populist. Any bandwagon that looks as though it’s likely to generate both a following and positive press coverage, and you’ll find Key clinging to the side of it like a fucking barnacle. He’s utterly shameless.
hi all,
i am thinking of having a chat to some young teenage boys about consent.
i am wanting to pick brains of fellow standardistas for ideas/analagies.
i have heard the cup of tea analogy, and would like to see if that can be fleshed out, added to, or another way of discussing this altogether.
personally the idea of acting against someones wishes is abhorent to me.
i contrast my upbringing: loving parents, decent solid father, pornography was a well leafed magazine in a mates brothers bedroom, alcohol was something that was consumed responsibly.
fully 3/4s of these young men lack a father in the house and a significant number of them, the male is a figure of conflict. (custody battles, communication etc)
as for pornography, there is no comparison to yesty year.
Sounds like those boys need more men in their lives, not less, as seems to have been advocated by many in that other post on being a bitch
[I haven’t seen anyone on that thread say that. Another moderator has set your comments to go into moderation for approval, so maybe be a bit more careful – weka]
I suppose it depends on the context (and make sure you run it by the parents/caregivers first, otherwise you risk just being a weirdo talking about sex to teens 🙂 ).
Thinking back on myself at that age, and what seems to work for my younger relatives, maybe the mind/body duality thing? Not to get carried away by anger/love/whatever, but to stop and say “am I being smart about this?”. That and “look at all blacks – being dumb off the field can still fuck up your career and life”.
Oh, and the difference between love and infatuation: love is when you know everything about the other person, infatuation is when you know nothing about them but assume they fit your desires.
According to The New Zealand Initiative there is no rise in income inequality. That is if you conveniently ignore that a rise in the value of houses is income for home-owners.
It’s odd to me anyway that a rise in net worth is not classed as a rise in income according to the New Zealand Initiative.
I appreciate that you have acknowledged that there is a distinction between capital and income. In my view they are not the same, a capital gain is not simply income in another form.
Income usually produces an actual cash amount each week, month or quarter.
A capital gain is not realisable until the capital asset is sold. Even then it may be illusory. For instance most NZ’ers have the bulk of their capital in their house. Selling and buying on the same market simply means a different house, not any cash. However, I do appreciate that the large increase in Auckland property prices has given people to opportunity to buy cheaper elsewhere and release quite a large amount of cash.
As far as I understand the data, there has been no real change in income distribution in New Zealand over the last twenty year. By that I mean wages, salaries, business income and interest and dividends.
What has occurred, largely as a result of land inflation and stock market increases in the last five years, is an increase in wealth disparity. Around 30% of people rent rather than own, and by and large they have less wealth as proportion of the national wealth than 15 years ago.
I also suspect that some suburbs in Auckland, typically wealthy ones, have had a larger percentage value increase than some less wealthy suburbs. And there is no doubt people have used their increased equity to support investment expenditure, even it is often home improvements, and also helping their children buy a house/apartment. Going around Devonport or Herne Bay, virtually every house has been expensively refurbished in the last fifteen years, and these suburbs have become $2 million average house price suburbs.
As far as I understand the data, there has been no real change in income distribution in New Zealand over the last twenty year. By that I mean wages, salaries, business income and interest and dividends.
Well that’s nice. I guess we just tell the increasing numbers of people begging on the streets that it’s always been like this. Same goes for those school kids who don’t have any lunch or are lucky enough to have a charity come to school and feed them. It’s ok kids it’s always been like this. And those growing encampments of “motorhomes” on the streets, yeah they’ve been there since like the mid 90s. No worries mate.
At the same time they have cut Julian Assange’s internet connection in the Ecuadorean Embassy (UK) to the outside world.
NatWest bank is in charge of internet connections to the Ecuadorean embassy? That’s pretty awesome diversification.
And lastly, a senior and very respected leader of the rebel military forces in the Donbass has been assassinated by an IED at his family home.
Or to put it another way, a local warlord well known for killing prisoners annoyed one person too many and got his beans. The guy was a Russian who got his combat experience in the suppression of colonial uprisings in Chechnya and went to the Ukraine so he could kill Ukrainians, quite likely at the behest of the Russian government. I thought you were against foreign fighters and mercenaries attacking sovereign countries?
And lastly, a senior and very respected leader of the rebel military forces in the Donbass has been assassinated by an IED at his family home.
War criminal gets his.
Motorola and his battalion are also accused of torturing captured Ukrainian soldiers. After Ukrainian soldier Ihor Branovytsky had been captured near Donetsk and was in custody of Pavlov’s group, Pavlov is alleged to have deliberately killed the prisoner on 21 January 2015 with two headshots
I don’t have too much of a problem with that last article, on the face of it at least. If people from that community can deal with the problem when the police and justice system can’t, then that seems an appropriate interim measure. If we lived in a sane society, local authorities and NGOs would start working with the gang to support them in their more social justice work e.g. the feeding kids thing.
…and Im not sure who decides what is appropriate mourning…. or by extension religion,sexuality, work ethic or even race.
Would you have much of a problem had the target had been a bottle store owner?….or any other person that offends some other/s?
It’s not about offence. If the bottle store owner was going out and pushing spirits onto teens in a way that actively contributed towards alcoholism and degeneration of the community and the police were not able to stop that, then I probably wouldn’t have too much of a problem with locals stepping up and taking action (within limits).
I don’t understand the relevance of the link. Are you saying that all gangs are the same degree of badness? No gangs should be given credit for the good things they do?
Surprised you wish to conflate the posts with gangs (although it is mob mentality)
The original post was headed “vigilantism and intolerance on the rise”…and with it extreme behaviours….I wonder if you would have been as accepting had the target been someone other than an alleged drug dealer….i note that it has been reported Duterte’s extrajudicial killings have been used as cover for other motives.
What I’m arguing is that what is vigilantism in one situation might be useful community action in another. I think you want to condemn all of them on principle, is that right? Because people shouldn’t take the law into their own hands? Whereas I think look at each situation and decide if there is more good than evil being done. That’s why I chose to focus on the gangs, because I’ve been finding the situation with Tribal Huk interesting.
The ‘intolerance’ shown by Tribal Huk for P dealer who are selling drugs to teenagers seems appropriate to me.
Of course, and we stood up against that and changed it.
You seem to be arguing a principle, which is laudable, I just don’t think IS, Nazis and active homophobes are going to take any notice of it so it’s a bit moot.
“Unless it’s the entire community that’s affected that has come up with a plan of action, then nah.”
hmm, I think when we’ve had conversations around community in the past you’ve said it’s on the people who are affected by something.
“Me and my mates think P dealers ought to go? Big hurrahs.
Me and my mates also reckon corner dairies shouldn’t sell alcohol? Big hurrahs.”
Me and my mates think that the P dealers who are selling P to teenagers are a problem and we’re going to do something about it more like. Are corner dairies selling alcohol causing the same kinds or degree of problems?
Everyone that’s affected must be included, ie, given a genuine opportunity and encouragement to participate in whatever decision and/or course of action meaningfully – yes.
otherwise…
me and my mates reckon corner dairies shouldn’t sell alcohol and if you ain’t agreeing with that, then maybe you’re a part of the problem….
Everyone that’s affected must be included, ie, given a genuine opportunity and encouragement to participate in whatever decision and/or course of action meaningfully – yes.
That’s the ideal, and it would be interesting to consider how that could happen e.g. a meeting where the P dealers could speak publicly, or where people would the people scared of the gangs could be in a room with the gangs. Meanwhile, in Ngaruawahia they don’t have that capacity.
I have absolutely no idea what the organisational capacity of the community is. But whatever its limits may or may not be, vigilantism is not ever community action and always comes with the same toxic side effects/risks. (I’ve outlined those – the rise of an illegitimate and unaccountable (usually) moral authority)
Did anyone ask the P addicts what they wanted done? Did they have any say in anything at all? What happens to them and their need for a fix ‘today’? Any support in place for them or are they just being left to twist in the breeze?
Whoop. No P dealers….in this street/this neighbourhood/this town. Chased out they were. Now what? Chase out ‘the bloody kids’ who want to take the stuff?
Agree Pat, that it’s the same social mentality (a part of the same sliding scale) that’s fueling and excusing wide-scale killings in the Philippines. And y’know, I dare say Duterte does some ‘lunch sandwich’ stuff too that’s welcome and appreciated.
When you endorsed the vigilantism of “Huk” as appropriate, – “The ‘intolerance’ shown by Tribal Huk for P dealer who are selling drugs to teenagers seems appropriate to me.” – where were the addicts?
Draw whatever line you prefer between supposedly acceptable vigilantism and unacceptable vigilantism. You don’t think it’s dairies? Choose something else. Though it’s the vigilantes, having been empowered through endorsement that actually get to choose (that was my point when referencing dairies).
The downward slope heads out in a precise direction and ends in an unsavoury place.
When you endorsed the vigilantism of “Huk” as appropriate, – “The ‘intolerance’ shown by Tribal Huk for P dealer who are selling drugs to teenagers seems appropriate to me.” – where were the addicts?
Probably the same place as the teenagers being targeted by P dealers when you categorically opposed what Tribal Huk did.
Draw whatever line you prefer between supposedly acceptable vigilantism and unacceptable vigilantism. You don’t think it’s dairies? Choose something else. Though it’s the vigilantes, having been empowered through endorsement that actually get to choose (that was my point when referencing dairies).
The downward slope heads out in a precise direction and ends in an unsavoury place.
That sounds right if we were saying living in a society based on anarchism. But I think there are enough natural limits in NZ due to the state, the police force and the justice system for it to not go down that slope.
Pat is arguing the principle, you are arguing the ideal (“Everyone that’s affected must be included, ie, given a genuine opportunity and encouragement to participate in whatever decision and/or course of action meaningfully – yes.”), I’m arguing the pragmatics of what can happen in that community right now. I guess Pat wants it left up to the state. I’m not sure what you want (but I assume not leaving it to the state). I’m saying that on the face of it, I don’t have too much of a problem with it. That’s not actually an endorsement of vigilantism in the way you are suggesting.
Another example might be friends and relatives getting together and putting a stop to a rapist where there is no chance of that happening via the legal system. It happens, it’s not without risk (in a number of ways to various people), I don’t endorse it but I don’t have too much of a problem when it happens where there are few other meaningful choices.
To be clear. I’ve agreed that an unaccountable sub-group within a community making unilateral decisions based only on their own notions of right and wrong and following through on their own notions of appropriate action with no thought for wider repercussions within the community, just can’t clear any reasonable bar of justification and so therefor can’t be condoned.
Odd that you argue any downward slope leading off from that could only happen in a society basing itself on anarchist principles when vigilantism flies so directly in the face of anarchist principles of democracy and democratic accountability .
The Philippines (occupying a space further along the spectrum or down the slope) definitely isn’t a society that embraces anarchist principles. Neither is India (the other example from the original list of links I opened).
I’ve agreed that an unaccountable sub-group within a community making unilateral decisions based only on their own notions of right and wrong and following through on their own notions of appropriate action with no thought for wider repercussions within the community, just can’t clear any reasonable bar of justification and so therefor can’t be condoned.
I’m not sure that Tribal Huk are unaccountable in that absolute way. They went to a public meeting, they appear to have some support in the community. I’m wondering if they have levels of accountability within the hapū and iwi structures locally. This is why I said on the face of it, we don’t really know what happens there.
Odd that you argue any downward slope leading off from that could only happen in a society basing itself on anarchist principles when vigilantism flies so directly in the face of anarchist principles of democracy and democratic accountability .
I didn’t use the word only. Nor did I imply inevitability. I gave that as a counterpoint to my point that the State structure in NZ would stop the slippery slope.
(and as an aside, I’ve yet to hear the explanation about how anarchist societies do or would manage people who behaved in other ways, e.g. via vigilantism. But that’s an old argument).
The Philippines (occupying a space further along the spectrum or down the slope) definitely isn’t a society that embraces anarchist principles. Neither is India (the other example from the original list of links I opened).
That doesn’t have anything to do with my points though. I’m not saying that vigilantism is good, never a problem, or never a slippery slope. I haven’t looked at the other links.
Then they came for P dealers who were selling addictive drugs to kids.
Doesn’t have the same ring to it. I don’t know the original context for Niemoller’s quote but I don’t think he was arguing what you are arguing (feel free to clarify what you mean though).
Well, no, Martin Niemöller was not arguing that criminals should not be punished. Just that we should speak out when the innocent are punished, even if we ourselves are not targets or don’t even particularly like the targets. It’s about the community protecting each other from unjustified persecution to protect themselves from the same.
Frankly, applying that to pedophiles and p dealers is a travesty, in my opinion.
and who decides the innocent?…in Nazi Germany all those named by Niemoller were considered criminals, just as less than three decades ago homosexuals here were considered criminal and were run out of town just like our alleged P pushers…when you allow insanity to prevail no-one is safe nor immune…..not even those passing judgement.
the point is those making the judgement may not…..ISIS consider anyone not adhering to their version of Islam fair game, just as many appear to think dispensing vigilante justice to alleged drug dealers think they are justified…just because you rate trade unionists highly don’t believe there are not many who would like to see trade unions a part of a distant past….by any means.
In NZ the State does. And the state takes action against people, including violent action, as it sees fit, even against the values of its citizens at times. Someone is deciding where it is ok to intervene.
McFlock, thanks for the comment re Niemoller, that’s how I’ve always understood that quote.
But that wasn’t what I asked.
P dealers and pedophiles have victims. Trade unionists, Jews and homosexuals do not. I’m astonished that this had to be spelled out for you.
Niemöller wasn’t arguing what sort of process should be used by society to enforce its rules – Nazi detentions and murders often took place under the cloak of legislative legitimacy, not mob rule. What he was saying is that we should speak out against manifest injustices in our society.
When it comes to p dealers and pedophiles, the threshold for “manifest injustice” is raised a lot higher than for victimless beliefs or even victimless characteristics.
“t’s about the community protecting each other from unjustified persecution to protect themselves from the same.”
….and as far as the German government of the day were concerned the persecution was justified, whether you accept that or not.
“Niemöller wasn’t arguing what sort of process should be used by society to enforce its rules – Nazi detentions and murders often took place under the cloak of legislative legitimacy, not mob rule. What he was saying is that we should speak out against manifest injustices in our society.”
Nazi detentions and murders happened under both mob rule and legal cloak…you state those illegal groups had no victims yet that was not the position of the government nor many of the population who blamed all the mentioned groups for all sorts of social ills and crimes.
I further note that the similarity to actions against homosexuals in our recent past has been neatly ignored.
Who decides the innocent….”In NZ the State does”
No ,the Judiciary do…through due process…not mob rule.
“I’m astonished that this had to be spelled out for you.”
So the judiciary decides it, even though in the government that Niemöller was talking about the judiciary made that judgement in a manifestly unjust manner and that’s what Niemöller was saying he should have worked harder at opposing.
Niemöller wasn’t talking about the manner in which unjust rulings were made, he was talking about what our reactions should be to manifestly unjust rulings. Not whether it was done by courts or mobs, just whether it was unjust. And if it’s unjust, we should stand against it.
“Who decides the innocent….”In NZ the State does”
No ,the Judiciary do…through due process…not mob rule.”
Yes, and the State rewrites the laws that they act within.
“not mob rule”
And yet if you are a woman who has been raped or a young Māori man who’s broken the law you will get a different kind of justice than if you are not. So this idea that we’re getting to now, that the State has a good process but people taking justice into their owns hands don’t is flawed. Hence my original comment about not having too much of a problem with what Tribal Huk did on the face of it.
this is not about P dealers (alleged) per se…..it is about the rise of vigilantism and intolerance, and the increasingly extreme behaviours associated with that
this is not about P dealers (alleged) per se…..it is about the rise of vigilantism and intolerance, and the increasingly extreme behaviours associated with that
Whoa there, vigilantism and intolerance are two different things.
Vigilantism is what happens when people perceive the legal system as inadequate, and there are good arguments against it. In some circumstances, such as the degradation of society, it might be necessary, however.
Some things should not be tolerated. At all. You brought up pedophilia, for example.
Other things that don’t victimise other people, such as being Jewish or gay, should be tolerated and defended.
If your problem is with vigilantism, you chose a reference that doesn’t actually address it at all. “To Kill a Mockingbird”, or even the old Peter Lorre movie “M” would be applicable. Hell, even Eastwood’s “Hang ‘Em High”. Not Niemöller.
If you think we should “tolerate” p dealers, I do not agree at all.
You might question whether the Huks actually came for the P dealers. Or did they merely frighten them away. Sure intimidation is not beautiful, but neither is selling the more destructive drugs into a community. Of the possible outcomes this one seems relatively benign.
lol…ah i don’t often agree with CV (less and less these days) but he is right …you are very adroit at ducking and weaving but never quite well enough to hide the hypocrisy
I’ve kept to a pretty simple point: Niemöller’s comment was about our reaction to injustice, not about the manner in which the injustice was arrived at. And where p dealers and pedophiles are concerned, it’s a bit more difficult to react to their behaviour in an unjust manner than in response to victimless things like “being Jewish”. Any response purely based on the last is unjust. People tend to be more equivocal about how far you can go with a pedophile before it’s an injustice.
and in return Ill keep it simple…..we have developed a legal system for a reason, and if your lucky enough to live in a country where the Judiciary is removed from the Government then we should use it as intended…..otherwise we may as well have mob rule.
There is no halfway house.
And as the Niemoller quote illustrates no one wins then….not even those who think they are right.
firstly, that’s not what Niemöller’s poem illustrates at all, if only because the Nazi judicial system was not always mob rule, and also happened under legal cloak. Niemöller was talking about his behaviour and inactivity in that environment, so if anything it’s about the consequences of political apathy.
secondly, a legal system that fails to address endemic social harms and crimes leaves a vacuum, a void between everything that should be enforced and that which actually is enforced. When that gap gets too large, that’s when vigilantism and mob justice occurs. This doesn’t mean that an injustice occurs (although it increases the likelihood). It just means that the formal legal system is failing to do its job (usually because it’s become alienated from sectors of the community).
“firstly, that’s not what Niemöller’s poem illustrates at all,”
No?….he used that quote on many occasions over the years , more often than not outside of the Nazi context, but id be delighted to hear your deconstruction.
“secondly, a legal system that fails to address endemic social harms and crimes leaves a vacuum,”
and filling that vacuum with mob rule leads to what?
“firstly, that’s not what Niemöller’s poem illustrates at all,”
No?….he used that quote on many occasions over the years , more often than not outside of the Nazi context, but id be delighted to hear your deconstruction.
@pat Political apathy. Not speaking out about injustice. How many times did he use it in the context of a mob, as opposed to general injustice?
“secondly, a legal system that fails to address endemic social harms and crimes leaves a vacuum,”
and filling that vacuum with mob rule leads to what?
Complete decay of a system that’s alienated from the population.
Nobody here, as far as I can tell, is saying that it’s a good thing that the police are so ineffectual in this matter that they’ve been sidelined. Just that the gang’s threat is a normal and, in the absence of formal effective law enforcement, a legitimate response to a serious social harm.
“I further note that the similarity to actions against homosexuals in our recent past has been neatly ignored.”
Not ignored. Exactly as victimless as being Jewish or a unionist. Illegal in NZ until thirty years ago – until enough people started saying things against that injustice. And same-sex marriage was illegal until very recently, and many of the people who spoke out against that injustice weren’t intending to marry people of the same sex.
Funny how when enough people say something, the world improves slightly. And if we all say nothing, the world gets worse until finally there’s nobody around to say something for us.
Just been reading this blogpost (link below) which popped up on TS feed section. Agree with many of his ideas – but but not his conclusion – and he makes the mistake of thinking just because we have low density in NZ, we should automatically fill it up with people and immigration is a great idea.
looking at the density argument. If we have the amazon rain forest, should we just start building there because it is a ‘low density opportunity in South America? Nope – time we start to value the environment and actually try to preserve some Green spaces left in the world (including countries that for whatever reason are not filled up with people, cars and houses).
How the hell can we keep biodiversity, natural environment with that sort of thinking? Wow there’s a free green space, (Actually probably a thriving ecosystem) but in the eyes of some, Yay lets utilise it by importing someone from he other side of the world to live there.
Sorry I think the way forward with climate change is to actually embrace what little green (and water) space we have got left, live with less consumerism and move trade into a more electronic format but food production more local, make taxes fair, and try not to repopulate every last centimetre of the world with people.
I get many people are migrants here, or forced to be migrants else where by government conditions, but moving people around is not solving the problems it is enabling neoliberalism and the resulting problems to dominate and mask that economically it is not working.
As someone who has often lived in sparsely populated areas that part of his argument made me cringe. He lives in Wellington, so good on him if he wants high density there, but fuck a policy that says everywhere else should be filled up. Empty spaces have value for many reasons, and I don’t see too much difference between his attitude there and colonisation ethics that thought that because the land wasn’t ploughed it wasn’t being used (or was empty).
I haven’t read the GP policy change yet, but I too would hope we could look at what a steady state might be, and then use our relative wealth to support other places to do the same. We should of course be taking far more refugees.
I got the impression the writer was saying we need to allow more immigration because refugees are in huge danger and need a home, not because he particularly wants to ruin our countryside. It’s a strong moral argument and I find it difficult to argue against.
Many of the countries where the refugees are coming from are going to take a long time to repair to become habitable again, and some may not be habitable again. That’s the “nice” solution most people want I guess. Look we’ll fix up your home so you can go back and then we hopefully don’t have to deal with you again.
Our current refugee quota is pitiful. I’m all for increasing the refugee quota. But doubling, tripling of refugee quota is nothing, compared to the current 69,000 migrants and 166,000 work visas being given out by the government. Economic migration of people with 10 million to spend or the skills category providing low paid Chef’s for SkyCity and fruit pickers for industry, is completely different to Refugees.
At one fifteenth the population density of the UK and given that the UK has screeds of open spaces, I’m not buying this nonsense that immigration will suddenly see NZ turned into some kind of endless concrete jungle.
Refugees need the support of other refugees – a sense of continuity and community. Larger numbers, not a few placed here and a few placed there, are required to ensure that. Taking only a few and dispersing them, ensures that a bogus argument about ‘lack of resources’ gains traction. It’s a manufactured scenario designed to excuse turning our backs on refugees and ensure that we’ll always have that excuse as a fall back.
On general immigration, well…we need to overhaul our infrastructure as a matter of urgency given the path we’re on with CC. We’re not doing it (hell mend us), but could quite easily get onto it, alongside any necessary expansion of those infrastructures, if we had, besides the political will and intelligence, the numbers of people required to do it.
Wouldn’t it make sense if, instead of asking about how many millions a person can invest (by way of fast tracking), we looked at how much of a real world contribution to NZ preparedness they could make by way of fast tracking? A lot of what needs done isn’t particularly skilled – but it will take numbers.
There will be an optimum number with regards immigrants. I’ve no idea what that might be. Maybe some academic papers that take into account NZs actual real world requirements has been published? No – of course not.
I’m tempted to say something negative but…well…anyone that produces a one-two combo of Face Value and Hello, I Must Be Going gets to put out as many albums as they like
A United Nations signatory, ToddandClare.com, has published a report on the official UN website asking the UN to stop Julian Assange from using the UN’s name to dismiss a European Arrest Warrant, following a Royal Bahamas Police Force Investigation into child sex offenses involving Mr Assange and ToddandClare.com.
[lprent: See my comments at the end of this. Content hidden. ]
Assange is alleged to have had video chats with the 8-year-old sister of a 22-year-old woman using an online dating site, toddandclare.com.
During those chats, he allegedly performed sexual acts on camera and persuaded the 8-year-old to perform other acts on camera. Her parents reported this to the Royal Bahamas Police.
THE ROYAL BAHAMAS POLICE INVESTIGATION (RBPF) AGAINST
JULIAN ASSANGE: WHAT WE KNOW TO DATE
1
As a UN Global Compact member, ToddandClare.com is duty bound by
United Nations regulations to bring the criminal child sex offenses investigation of
the Royal Bahamas Police Force (RBPF Reference: Sgt Ferguson 1705 RBPF
Thompson Boulevard) involving our business and Mr Julian Assange, to the UN’s
attention.
2.
On Wednesday, September 28, 2016, ToddandClare.com’s Trust & Safety
team was contacted by the father of an 8-year-old juvenile regarding a criminal
investigation by the Royal Bahamas Police Force that contexts serious child sex
offenses against the man’s young daughter. The juvenile is the younger sister of a
22-year-old adult female ToddandClare.com user.
3.
Our understanding is that the RBPF Investigation (RBPF Reference: Sgt
Ferguson 1705 RBPF Thompson Boulevard) is being handled by a specialist child
protection unit of the Bahamas police authorities and relates to the child exploitation
of an 8-year-old juvenile in Nassau, Bahamas using electronic/internet methods;
prohibited use of an electronic communication system to procure a minor; child
pornography production; and the luring of a minor online for sex, by Mr Julian
Assange, who we understand has been identified from chatlogs.
4.
We understand the family involved are Canadian nationals, who were on
a month long yachting vacation through the Bahamas, and residing as guests of Mrs.
Mavis Darling-Hill, at the Darling-Hill’s poolside residence in the Blair Estates area
of Nassau, New Providence.
5.
The investigation specifically pertains to Mr Assange’s remote use of our
dating site, ToddandClare.com
6.
We understand the father was advised to contact Sgt Darrington Sands at
the local Fox Hill police station. We understand initial contact with law enforcement
was subsequently made with Sgt Symonatt for the Blair Estates area, at 10am, on
September 28, 2016, in which the father reported the pedophile crimes against his 8- year-old daughter.
7.
We understand the Fox Hill duty officer subsequently transferred the
family to urgently contact the Central Detective Unit of the Royal Bahamas Police
Force on Thompson Boulevard in Nassau.
8.
We understand the family proceeded to make a formal complaint to
Sergeant Ferguson at Thompson Boulevard on Wednesday, September 28, 2016 at
12.40pm, that their 8-year-old juvenile daughter was sexually molested online by
Julian Assange, through ToddandClare.com, and that Assange had been accessing
the site from London, UK.
9.
We understand Julian Assange was clearly photo- and video- identified in
the chatlogs by both the parents of the juvenile, and Mrs Darling-Hill, who is the
Bahamas Social Services worker involved.
10. We understand the chatlogs evidenced the 8-year-old juvenile was
unlawfully made the subject of “internet grooming” by Mr Assange, which included
propositioning the 8-year-old juvenile “to perform oral and anal sex acts”.
11. We understand the family reported to the Bahamas authorities that Mr
Assange sent the 8-year-old juvenile (i) unlawful, indecent images and video media
of himself performing lewd acts on a mobile camera device, and (ii) unlawful
obscenity materials of a child pornographic nature.
12. Neither the 22 year old female nor the 8-year old juvenile had physically
met offline with Mr Assange at any time.
13. The family has no connection to Sweden, the UK, or the United States,
and no connection with Julian Assange whatsoever. The family has made clear, at
this extraordinarily sensitive time, their only priority is their 8-year-old’s wellbeing.
14. These Royal Bahamas Police Force circumstances led to the immediate
termination of the agreement between ToddandClare.com and Julian Assange, and
forthwith, cancellation of all plans to film a video production for the KATIA Project
with Mr Assange, who both we and the KATIA Project have completely
disassociated from.
15. No other users of ToddandClare.com are involved
[lprent: There is a reason that this content has a link that is a google cache. The “member” has been delisted a few days after this document was created and uploaded as an attachment.
In my opinion, this particular document and the organisation is likely to be a false flag operation and if probably both false and defamatory. If you don’t think that it is, then email me. Otherwise anyone repeating is likely to receive an immediate permanent ban. ]
There’s more there about how they were working with Assange on their anti-rape message. Hard read. Pretty serious mistake them entering into an endorsement contract with Assange in the first place, but all kudos to them for now so meticulously documenting what happened.
I haven’t quite gotten my head around it all yet (e.g. what is meant by the UN support for Assange and why T&C fell out with the UN over that?), but mostly I’m just thinking here we go again, with all that entails.
It’s strange that the media haven’t picked this up given the first press release was Oct 11.
Mrs Darling-Hill is both the host of the family and the Bahama’s social services worker who’s involved, yes?
Chatlogs…those are historical, right?
Assuming the “we understand” in the documentation is all true and correct, I’m somewhat curious as to when and how any contact between Assange and the other website user (the 22 year old daughter) became chats and/or what not between Assange and her 8 year old sister.
8 year old has sister’s password? Older sister leaves the computer on and doesn’t log out?
I’m curious as to, assuming the documentation is true, Assange could do something so stupid given his tech expertise (and by stupid I’m not referring to the sexual abuse, that’s something else entirely. I’m referring to his use of ICT).
Yes i also followed up on Darling- hill she is the deputy director of social services in the bahamas govt. As well as the social worker involved as well as the host of the 8 year old (as well a patron of some local charities)
Question how does an 8 year old get access to adult only account of 22 year old? and who bears responsibility for that ?
Question did assange believe he was communicating with a 22 year old consenting female ?
One thing is sure this is serious abuse of the 8 year old girl but by whom?
I really do have an open mind but it looks just a bit too cute
In any case i can see why the Equadorians took his internet access away.. fair enough. What a dumb thing to do
“Question how does an 8 year old get access to adult only account of 22 year old? and who bears responsibility for that ?”
I think that’s a separate issue than Assange’s involvement or not in child abuse. Open internet is pretty ubiquitous, not for all children, but for enough.
I agree the question of whether Assange knew he was interacting with a child is important.
Rt Hon Justin Trudeau
Office of the Prime Minister of Canada
80 Wellington Street
Ottawa, ON K1A 0A2
Date: 10.17.2016
Sir,
We’re writing on behalf of ToddandClare.com, a dating site in Houston with a legal obligation to our female members. We are officially requesting your offices to intervene on behalf of a vulnerable Canadian family who are distraught and frightened. The family attended 2 police stations in Nassau, Bahamas, on September 28, 2016, to report to the Royal Bahamas Police Force (RBPF) that their 8 year old daughter had been abused by Julian Assange using our dating service.
The subsequent mishandling of the initial stages of the child sex investigation by the Royal Bahamas Police Force, and the way the RBPF have passed information ‘off the record’ to the UK tabloids, is of grave concern.
The family say that they experienced anti-Caucasian racism in Nassau.
They have told us they received unfavorable treatment by the RBPF on account of being white. They say that the Bahamas authorities were more interested in protecting the reputation of their island, and closing the case, than properly investigating their allegations of internet child abuse by Julian Assange, against a Canadian minor.
The family left the Bahamas, because they did not wish to subject their 8 year old to a continued nightmare and anti-white, racist abuse by Bahamian police. In addition to the clear racial problem, this investigation is particularly sensitive. The way the facts of the case pertain to the family’s eldest daughter, a 22 year old college woman who is the elder sister of the 8 year old child, and who Assange contacted the minor through, could have wider legal implications for the young woman.
Not only is Assange a rapist, that so many people are absolutely sure of after swallowing the Deep State smear campaign against him holus bolus, but now he’s been found a pedo too, which I reckon the same people have always suspected deep inside would be totally the case for an over-geeky internet type like Assange.
Talk about lefties swimming in an ocean of confirmation bias.
The web cache link seems pretty clear, but some of the other tellings of the story (T&C’s website, the DK story) are a bit ramble. DK is raising some initial questions.
Shows all the signs of being a spoof. From the protestations of the “organisation” to the way that it was associated to a “official” report pulled out of a cache for a deleted account.
I keep looking at it and it kind of makes sense but then it doesn’t. That no media have picked up says heaps. The inconsistency in clarity between the cached report and the post on the organisation’s website was the oddest thing, looks like they’re written by different organisations, one very professional, the other not.
Here is an interesting puzzle…. I have been emailing various RNZ presenters over the last 6 months with the following simple question…
Would asking Jonathon Colman whether he has Public or Private health care be considered an ad hominem question?
I had been in email exchanges with a couple of RNZ presenters prior to asking this question, then as soon as I asked the question I was completely closed down, very strange, not one response.
Bear in mind his explanation for an increase in violent crime…
Prime Minister John Key said the higher prisoner numbers reflected the changing nature of crime. “It’s a bit of an international trend: you saw overall crime rates falling internationally for a while and we were consistent with that, and they continue to fall in total numbers, but as I say, that hardened end [is] definitely going up a bit.”
“A shop-bought helium balloon kit was taken from 76-year-old Nelson woman Patsy McGrath, who has long campaigned for euthanasia, on Friday, the Voluntary Euthanasia Society says.”
So, was she turned in by a relative or friend determined to intervene in her plans, or are the Police using public profiles in a open legal process ie submission to the health committee, to make criminals of people who wish to control their own destinies.
surely the police have better things to do with their time than harrass a 76 year old woman?…are the Police being politicised?…in which case we have a Police State
I’ve been satisfied for quite some time now that a port visit by a US Navy vessel would not be in breach of our law (with the exception of aircraft carriers and submarines). Of course, I expect some people will take issue with US foreign policy and militarism, but this marks a diplomatic win for our longstanding anti-nuclear policy.
“Max and Stacy are joined by Joel Benjamin, local authority debt audit campaigner with Debt Resistance UK, and Nigel Henderson, who lost his hotel business to RBS’s restructuring division, to talk of the ‘stunned commoners’ in awe (at the brazenness) of the Royal… Bank of Scotland.
Nigel recounts his own encounter with RBS’s smash and grab unit which saw him lose his hotel in Scotland.
They discuss the tens of billions in fines the bank, taxpayer-owned RBS, faces from US authorities for the bank’s role in the mortgage backed securities fraud and whether or not there will be anything left for compensation of the thousands of small and medium sized enterprises destroyed in the UK.”
…and in retribution to RT? (banksters fight back)
‘Cancellation of RT UK’s bank account ‘crude British state propaganda’ – Galloway (VIDEO)’
@ Peter Swift …how about address the content of this?..it is a British story
…these are two Brits and two Americans, all well qualified, having a discussion about the practices of the ‘Royal Bank of Scotland’ which has destroyed thousands of small and medium sized enterprises in the UK
…do you these people are telling fibs ?…I don’t think so
I sometimes struggled and sometimes guffawed my way through that diatribe before hitting this clanger or alarm bell or whatever you might want to call it towards the very end.
Like the UN Working Group on Arbitrary Detention’s misguided support for a fugitive rapist,
A United Nations panel has decided that Julian Assange’s three-and-a-half years in the Ecuadorian embassy amount to “arbitrary detention”, leading his lawyers to call for the Swedish extradition request to be dropped immediately.
A Swedish foreign ministry spokeswoman confirmed that the UN panel, due to publish its findings on Friday, had concluded that Assange was “arbitrarily detained”.
The WikiLeaks founder sought asylum from Ecuador in June 2012 to avoid extradition to Sweden to face questioning over rape and sexual assault allegations, which he denies.
The panel’s findings were disclosed to the Swedish and British governments on 22 January, and will be published on Friday morning. Their judgment is not legally binding but can be used to apply pressure on states in human rights cases.
[In order to keep OM and DR free for other conversations, all comments, link postings etc about the US election now need to go in the dedicated US election discussion here.
If you are unsure, post in that thread rather than here. It’s not possible for moderators to shift posts from OM to there, so any comments here may get deleted – weka]
[now you know the moderators’ super powers, ha ha. (trying to keep this comment highlighted at the bottom so people coming in off the comments list see it) – weka]
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The Government has left the health system as an afterthought, announcing half-baked targets at the last minute of their 100-day plan, says Labour Health spokesperson Ayesha Verrall. ...
Kiwis are still waiting for their promised cost of living support after 100 days of a National Government that is taking us backwards, Labour Leader Chris Hipkins said today. ...
The National Government has spent its first 100 days stopping, cutting and reversing. They have scrapped stuff for stuff for the sake of it, without putting up any solutions of their own – and it’s hardworking New Zealanders who will pay for it. ...
100 days of National taking NZ backwardsThe National Government has spent its first 100 days stopping, cutting and reversing. They have scrapped stuff for stuff for the sake of it, without putting up any solutions of their own – and it’s hardworking New Zealanders who will pay for it. ...
The Government must commit to funding free and healthy school lunches, as thousands of people sign the petition to keep them, education spokesperson Jan Tinetti says. ...
If the Government was serious about moving families into public housing, they would build more houses so there is actually somewhere for people to go. ...
The free and healthy school lunches programme feeds our kids, helps them to learn, and saves families money – but it is at risk under this Government, education spokesperson Jan Tinetti said. ...
The Government’s proposed changes to Firearms Prohibition Orders (FPO) add almost nothing new and are merely an attempt to distract from its plans to loosen gun laws, police spokesperson Ginny Andersen and justice spokesperson Dr Duncan Webb said. ...
The great Victorian era English politician Lord Macauley stood in the British House of Parliament and said, "The gallery in which the reporters sit has become a fourth estate of the realm".He understood and outlined even way back then, the significant role and influence media have in a democracy. ...
The government’s attack on Māori health this week is committing tangata-whenua to a premature death, says Te Pāti Māori. “The government have begun their onslaught on Māori health with the abolishment of the Māori Health Authority and smokefree laws in the same day” said health spokesperson and co-leader, Debbie Ngarewa-Packer. ...
Today marks a tragic milestone for New Zealanders as the Coalition Government side with big tobacco to repeal the Smokefree Environments and Regulated Products (Smoked Tobacco) Amendment Act 2022, Labour Leader Chris Hipkins and Labour Health spokesperson Ayesha Verrall said. ...
New Zealand’s social workers are qualified, experienced, and more representative of the communities they serve, Social Development and Employment Minister Louise Upston says. “I want to acknowledge and applaud New Zealand’s social workers for the hard work they do, providing invaluable support for our most vulnerable. “To coincide with World ...
Cabinet has agreed to a reduced road user charge (RUC) rate for plug-in hybrid electric vehicles (PHEVs), Transport Minister Simeon Brown says. Owners of PHEVs will be eligible for a reduced rate of $38 per 1,000km once all light electric vehicles (EVs) move into the RUC system from 1 April. ...
Minister of Agriculture and Trade, Todd McClay, says that today’s opening of Riverland Foods manufacturing plant in Christchurch is a great example of how trade access to overseas markets creates jobs in New Zealand. Speaking at the official opening of this state-of-the-art pet food factory the Minister noted that exports ...
Minister of Foreign Affairs Winston Peters met with Chinese Foreign Minister Wang Yi in Wellington today. “It was a pleasure to host Foreign Minister Wang Yi during his first official visit to New Zealand since 2017. Our discussions were wide-ranging and enabled engagement on many facets of New Zealand’s relationship with China, including trade, ...
Kāinga Ora – Homes & Communities has been instructed to end the Sustaining Tenancies Framework and take stronger measures against persistent antisocial behaviour by tenants, says Housing Minister Chris Bishop. “Earlier today Finance Minister Nicola Willis and I sent an interim Letter of Expectations to the Board of Kāinga Ora. ...
Tēna koutou katoa. Greetings everyone. Thank you to the Auckland Chamber of Commerce and the Honourable Simon Bridges for hosting this address today. I acknowledge the business leaders in this room, the leaders and governors, the employers, the entrepreneurs, the investors, and the wealth creators. The coalition Government shares your ...
Minister Winston Peters completed the final leg of his visit to South and South East Asia in Singapore today, where he focused on enhancing one of New Zealand’s indispensable strategic partnerships. “Singapore is our most important defence partner in South East Asia, our fourth-largest trading partner and a ...
Minister of Internal Affairs and Workplace Relations and Safety, Hon. Brooke van Velden, will travel to the Republic of Korea to represent New Zealand at the Third Summit for Democracy on 18 March. The summit, hosted by the Republic of Korea, was first convened by the United States in 2021, ...
ICNZ Speech 7 March 2024, Auckland Acknowledgements and opening Mōrena, ngā mihi nui. Ko Andrew Bayly aho, Nor Whanganui aho. Good morning, it’s a privilege to be here to open the ICNZ annual conference, thank you to Mark for the Mihi Whakatau My thanks to Tim Grafton for inviting me ...
Prime Minister Christopher Luxon and Lead Coordination Minister Judith Collins have expressed their deepest sympathy on the five-year anniversary of the Christchurch terror attacks. “March 15, 2019, was a day when families, communities and the country came together both in sorrow and solidarity,” Mr Luxon says. “Today we pay our respects to the 51 shuhada ...
Speech for Financial Advice NZ Conference 5 March 2024 Acknowledgements and opening Morena, Nga Mihi Nui. Ko Andrew Bayly aho, Nor Whanganui aho. Thanks Nate for your Mihi Whakatau Good morning. It’s a pleasure to formally open your conference this morning. What a lovely day in Wellington, What a great ...
Foreign Minister Winston Peters held discussions in Jakarta today about the future of relations between New Zealand and South East Asia’s most populous country. “We are in Jakarta so early in our new government’s term to reflect the huge importance we place on our relationship with Indonesia and South ...
Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Foreign Affairs Winston Peters has announced that the Foreign Minister of China, Wang Yi, will visit New Zealand next week. “We look forward to re-engaging with Foreign Minister Wang Yi and discussing the full breadth of the bilateral relationship, which is one of New Zealand’s ...
Transport Minister Simeon Brown has today opened the new Auckland Rail Operations Centre, which will bring together KiwiRail, Auckland Transport, and Auckland One Rail to improve service reliability for Aucklanders. “The recent train disruptions in Auckland have highlighted how important it is KiwiRail and Auckland’s rail agencies work together to ...
The Government is proud to support the 10th edition of Crankworx Rotorua as the Crankworx World Tour returns to Rotorua from 16-24 March 2024, says Minister for Economic Development Melissa Lee. “Over the past 10 years as Crankworx Rotorua has grown, so too have the economic and social benefits that ...
Legislation implementing coalition Government tax commitments and addressing long-standing tax anomalies will be progressed in Parliament next week, Finance Minister Nicola Willis says. The legislation is contained in an Amendment Paper to the Taxation (Annual Rates for 2023–24, Multinational Tax, and Remedial Matters) Bill issued today. “The Amendment Paper represents ...
Associate Environment Minister Andrew Hoggard has today announced that the Government has agreed to suspend the requirement for councils to comply with the Significant Natural Areas (SNA) provisions of the National Policy Statement for Indigenous Biodiversity for three years, while it replaces the Resource Management Act (RMA).“As it stands, SNAs ...
Agriculture Minister Todd McClay has classified the drought conditions in the Marlborough, Tasman, and Nelson districts as a medium-scale adverse event, acknowledging the challenging conditions facing farmers and growers in the district. “Parts of Marlborough, Tasman, and Nelson districts are in the grip of an intense dry spell. I know ...
The Government is helping farmers eradicate the significant impact of facial eczema (FE) in pastoral animals, Agriculture Minister Todd McClay announced. “A $20 million partnership jointly funded by Beef + Lamb NZ, the Government, and the primary sector will save farmers an estimated NZD$332 million per year, and aims to ...
Foreign Minister Winston Peters has completed a successful visit to India, saying it was an important step in taking the relationship between the two countries to the next level. “We have laid a strong foundation for the Coalition Government’s priority of enhancing New Zealand-India relations to generate significant future benefit for both countries,” says Mr Peters, ...
Cabinet has agreed to provide $7 million to ensure the 2024 ski season can go ahead on the Whakapapa ski field in the central North Island but has told the operator Ruapehu Alpine Lifts it is the last financial support it will receive from taxpayers. Cabinet also agreed to provide ...
Health Minister Dr Shane Reti says the launch of a new mobile breast screening unit in Counties Manukau reinforces the coalition Government’s commitment to drive better cancer services for all New Zealanders. Speaking at the launch of the new mobile clinic, Dr Reti says it’s a great example of taking ...
Health Minister Dr Shane Reti says the launch of a new mobile breast screening unit in Counties Manukau reinforces the coalition Government’s commitment to drive better cancer services for all New Zealanders. Speaking at the launch of the new mobile clinic, Dr Reti says it’s a great example of taking ...
Unlocking economic growth and land for housing are critical elements of the Government’s plan for our transport network, and planned upgrades to State Highway 29 (SH29) near Tauriko will deliver strongly on those priorities, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says. “The SH29 upgrades near Tauriko will improve safety at the intersections ...
Unlocking economic growth and land for housing are critical elements of the Government’s plan for our transport network, and planned upgrades to State Highway 29 (SH29) near Tauriko will deliver strongly on those priorities, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says. “The SH29 upgrades near Tauriko will improve safety at the intersections ...
Lower fruit and vegetable prices are welcome news for New Zealanders who have been doing it tough at the supermarket, Finance Minister Nicola Willis says. Stats NZ reported today the price of fruit and vegetables has dropped 9.3 percent in the 12 months to February 2024. “Lower fruit and vege ...
Tēnā koutou katoa and greetings to you all. Chair, I am honoured to address the sixty-eighth session of the Commission on the Status of Women. I acknowledge the many crises impacting the rights of women and girls. Heightened global tensions, war, climate related and humanitarian disasters, and price inflation all ...
Tēnā koutou katoa and greetings to you all. Chair, I am honoured to address the 68th session of the Commission on the Status of Women. I acknowledge the many crises impacting the rights of women and girls. Heightened global tensions, war, climate related and humanitarian disasters, and price inflation all ...
The coalition Government is supporting farmers to enhance land management practices by investing $3.3 million in locally led catchment groups, Agriculture Minister Todd McClay announced. “Farmers and growers deliver significant prosperity for New Zealand and it’s vital their ongoing efforts to improve land management practices and water quality are supported,” ...
Good evening everyone and thank you for that lovely introduction. Thank you also to the Honourable Simon Bridges for the invitation to address your members. Since being sworn in, this coalition Government has hit the ground running with our 100-day plan, delivering the changes that New Zealanders expect of us. ...
Recommendations from the Climate Change Commission for New Zealand on the Emissions Trading Scheme (ETS) auction and unit limit settings for the next five years have been tabled in Parliament, Climate Change Minister Simon Watts says. “The Commission provides advice on the ETS annually. This is the third time the ...
The coalition Government is beginning its fight to lower building costs and reduce red tape by exempting minor building work from paying the building levy, says Building and Construction Minister Chris Penk. “Currently, any building project worth $20,444 including GST or more is subject to the building levy which is ...
Proposed changes to tax legislation to prevent the over-taxation of low-earning trusts are welcome, Finance Minister Nicola Willis says. The changes have been recommended by Parliament’s Finance and Expenditure Committee following consideration of submissions on the Taxation (Annual Rates for 2023–24, Multinational Tax, and Remedial Matters) Bill. “One of the ...
Assalaamu alaikum. السَّلَام عليكم In light of the holy month of Ramadan, I want to extend my warmest wishes to our Muslim community in New Zealand. Ramadan is a time for spiritual reflection, renewed devotion, perseverance, generosity, and forgiveness. It’s a time to strengthen our bonds and appreciate the diversity ...
Former Transport Minister and CEO of the Auckland Business Chamber Hon Simon Bridges has been appointed as the new Board Chair of the New Zealand Transport Agency (NZTA) for a three-year term, Transport Minister Simeon Brown announced today. “Simon brings extensive experience and knowledge in transport policy and governance to the role. He will ...
Good morning all, it is a pleasure to be here as Minister of Science, Innovation and Technology. It is fantastic to see how connected and collaborative the life science and biotechnology industry is here in New Zealand. I would like to thank BioTechNZ and NZTech for the invitation to address ...
Regional Development Minister Shane Jones says he is looking forward to the day when three key water projects in Northland are up and running, unlocking the full potential of land in the region. Mr Jones attended a community event at the site of the Otawere reservoir near Kerikeri on Friday. ...
Associate Finance Minister David Seymour has today announced that the Government has agreed to restore deductibility for mortgage interest on residential investment properties. “Help is on the way for landlords and renters alike. The Government’s restoration of interest deductibility will ease pressure on rents and simplify the tax code,” says ...
Sport and Recreation Minister Chris Bishop will travel to Switzerland today to attend an Executive Committee meeting and Symposium of the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA). Mr Bishop will then travel on to London where he will attend a series of meetings in his capacity as Infrastructure Minister. “New Zealanders believe ...
This year’s Pacific Language Weeks celebrate regional unity and the contribution of Pacific communities to New Zealand culture, says Minister for Pacific Peoples Dr Shane Reti. Dr Reti announced dates for the 2024 Pacific Language Weeks during a visit to the Pasifika festival in Auckland today and says there’s so ...
The Treasury has published today a new Analytical Note by Tod Wright and Hien Nguyen, Fiscal incidence in New Zealand: The effects of taxes and benefits on household incomes in tax year 2018/19 . Analyses of the distributional impact of taxation and government ...
The Treasury has published today a new Analytical Note by Cory Davis, Boston Hart and Benjamin Stubbing, Household cost-of-living impacts from the Emissions Trading Scheme and using transfers to mitigate regressive outcomes . This Analytical Note ...
A coalition of public transport and climate organisations, united as ‘Transport for All’, is actively opposing the government’s transport proposals. The draft Government Policy Statement (GPS) includes plans for higher fares for public transport, ...
Greater Wellington is inviting feedback on proposed changes to its Revenue and Financing Policy. The Revenue and Financing Policy covers the Council’s various sources of funding, and how the cost of services is shared across the region. This includes ...
Labour has conceded it could have done more to deal with disruptive state housing tenants while in government but says the current coalition is going too far. ...
The band has asked their record label to issue a cease and desist to stop the NZ First leader using their 1997 hit to support his ‘misguided political views’. “I get knocked down, but I get up again,” blared through the speakers on Sunday as Winston Peters took the stage ...
By Lydia Lewis, RNZ Pacific journalist Food rationing is underway in remote areas in Papua New Guinea’s Highlands following torrential rain and flash flooding. More than 20 people have been reported dead in Chimbu Province. In nearby Enga Province, the centre of last month’s massacre, a 15-year-old boy has been ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Andrew Hughes, Lecturer, Research School of Management, Australian National University After months of debate and intrigue, the AFL’s 19th and newest team, the Tasmania Devils, finally launched its jumper, logo and colours in Devonport this week. The Devils will wear green, ...
Brannavan Gnanalingam reviews the debut novel by Saraid de Silva.One of the most baffling things for children who move to a new country is what their parents’ (or grandparents’) lives were like prior to moving – for kids in particular, they’re too busy trying to fit in in their ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Stephen Gaunson, Associate Professor in Cinema Studies, RMIT University Narelle Portanier/Binge “If you don’t know who your mob are, you don’t know who you are,” Detective Andrea “Andie” Whitford (played by Leah Purcell) is told early into the new crime ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Elise Klein, Associate professor, Australian National University It’s commonly accepted that women do the vast majority of caregiving in Australian society. But less appreciated is that Indigenous women do larger amounts of unpaid care than any other group. Working with the Aboriginal ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Adrian Beaumont, Election Analyst (Psephologist) at The Conversation; and Honorary Associate, School of Mathematics and Statistics, The University of Melbourne Joe Biden and Donald Trump have both secured their parties’ nominations for the November 5 United States general election by winning a ...
Comment: There has been a striking contrast in trans-Tasman interest about Chinese foreign minister Wang Yi’s visit to New Zealand and Australia. While the Australian press has been full of articles about the visit – including his curious decision to meet with former prime minister and China booster Paul Keating ...
After years of pressuring banks and other institutions to stop investing in fossil fuels, climate campaigners are making some progress. So how does divestment work?For years, climate activists have been pushing banks and other big institutions to divest from fossil fuels. New research from climate advocacy group 350 Aotearoa ...
For Boba, Ethan and Ashley, K-pop is a place to belong, a way to express themselves, and a bridge to connect with others. The three young Polynesians are part of a K-pop fan community in Tāmaki Makaurau. It’s one of many that have sprung up worldwide as K-pop has gone ...
For Boba, Ethan and Ashley, K-pop is a place to belong, a way to express themselves, and a bridge to connect with others. This one-off documentary presents three intimate portraits of young Polynesians who are pulled into a Korean cultural phenomenon. K-POLYS is directed by Litia Tuiburelevu, Produced by Hex ...
There’s ample evidence demonstrating free school lunch programmes provide wide benefits across schools, households and communities according to public health researchers. ACT Minister David Seymour wants to reduce the spending on Aotearoa New Zealand’s ...
By Wata Shaw in Suva Fiji is facing an exodus of Fijians as many are leaving for overseas seeking employment and education and others are migrating, says Opposition MP Viliame Naupoto. Speaking in Parliament, he said: “His Excellency’s speech (Ratu Wiliame Katonivere) comes after a little over one year of ...
The Taxpayers’ Union is welcoming comments from Christopher Luxon this morning recommitting to ‘no new taxes’ as part of Budget 2024. “Mr Luxon’s refusal at the Post-Cabinet press conference yesterday to repeat the ‘no new taxes’ promise ...
SAFE is urgently calling on the Environment Committee to reject the Government’s Fast-Track Approvals Bill, and is urging New Zealanders to rally behind the call. The proposed Bill, currently under consideration with the Environment select committee, ...
Teammates who spend all their time picking fights with spectators are only helpful for the other team, writes Madeleine Chapman. Anyone who has ever played a team sport competitively, particularly as a child and particularly, for some reason, basketball, will know that there’s a lot of politics involved. While there ...
The long-running Wellington music festival is too focused on the Jim Beam-ness and not enough on the Homegrown-ness.There is something about Homegrown that’s difficult to place. A barely perceptible-ness. Like feeling a ghost is watching you from the corner of the room but when you look, there’s nothing there. ...
The latest Ipsos New Zealand Issues Monitor reveals that fewer New Zealanders believe crime / law and order is one of the top issues facing our country. In 2018, Ipsos New Zealand started tracking the key issues facing New Zealand. In this wave ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Kate Griffiths, Deputy Program Director, Budgets and Government, Grattan Institute Australia’s political donations rules are woefully inadequate, but donations reform is finally on the agenda. The federal government has signalled its interest in reform and will soon begin briefing MPs on its ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Mark Patrick Taylor, Chief Environmental Scientist, EPA Victoria; Honorary Professor, School of Natural Sciences, Macquarie University Naiyana Somchitkaeo/Shutterstock A recent study published in the prestigious New England Journal of Medicine has linked microplastics with risk to human health. The study ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Albert Van Dijk, Professor, Water and Landscape Dynamics, Fenner School of Environment & Society, Australian National University Global climate records were shattered in 2023, from air and sea temperatures to sea-level rise and sea-ice extent. Scores of countries recorded their hottest year ...
As part of our series exploring how New Zealanders live and our relationship with money, a teacher explains why he and his partner are in frugal mode – and how they’re making it work. Gender: Male Age: 35Ethnicity: Pākehā Role: I am an intermediate school teacher and my partner is ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Sarah Bendall, Senior Lecturer, Institute for Humanities and Social Sciences, Australian Catholic University Binge Mary & George, the new British television drama series, depicts the real-life story of Mary Villiers and her son George, and their social climbing at the ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Jason Nassios, Associate Professor, Centre of Policy Studies, Victoria University This article is part of The Conversation’s series examining the housing crisis. Read the other articles in the series here. Australian state and federal governments spend money in many ways to ...
The finance minister is denying that there’s a $5.6b shortfall in paying for the government’s campaign promises, including tax cuts. At his post-cabinet press conference yesterday, the PM refused to rule out new taxes to pay for the cuts, writes Anna Rawhiti-Connell in this excerpt from The Bulletin, The Spinoff’s ...
Kāinga Ora tenants abused by their neighbours are doubting the government's crackdown on disruptive tenants will make a difference on their behaviour. ...
Kāinga Ora is New Zealand’s biggest residential landlord, housing more than 180,000 vulnerable people in more than 67,000 properties. Yesterday the government announced a crackdown on its tenants who fall behind on rent. One longtime Kāinga Ora tenant shares her experience.For 18 years I lived in a 1960s standalone ...
Why does this myth persist, and what’s the real reason our skin is suffering?It’s one of the biggest international grievances New Zealanders hold, up there with the sinking of the Rainbow Warrior and 1981’s underarm incident. We’re quick to tell international travellers that the world’s pollution led to the ...
When the Criminal Proceeds (Recovery) Act was introduced in 2009 it was firmly targeted at gangs and drugs. The legislation means police no longer need a conviction to seize assets that criminals can’t prove were paid for legitimately, as long as their alleged offences are punishable by more than a ...
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Bob’s relationship with certain members of Lincoln’s academic staff continued to deteriorate in the 1990s. Others supported him publicly, though articles such as Roland Clark’s 1993 piece in Growing Today cannot have pleased the university management. Clark wrote that Bob was selling onions from the Biological Husbandry Unit to a ...
SailGP’s races feature in-your-face action, with agile, hydro-foiling catamarans tacking and jibing for the title over several days. However, public comments ahead of the global series’ return to New Zealand have left this past year’s controversy in the shadows, as a key appointment attracts criticism from dolphin advocates. A year ...
Opinion: We are fast approaching a fundamental change in prisons. As the number of people on custodial remand looks set to overtake the number of sentenced prisoners, the main function of prisons in New Zealand may become incarcerating un-sentenced people who may not be guilty of offending. We have already ...
A huge seven months lies in store for the White Ferns, beginning this week with the visit of England and culminating with the T20 World Cup in Bangladesh in September and October. Starting on Tuesday in Dunedin, the world ranked No. 2 visitors will play five T20s and three ODIs, ...
Opinion: In a move that has shocked road safety advocates across the country, the new Minister of Transport, Simeon Brown, is poised to abandon the previous government’s speed limit reduction policy, particularly around schools. Even more alarmingly, he wants school speed limits to be variable rather than full-time, arguing ...
Auckland Council is opposing a fast-track development backed by Sir John Kirwan and Spark NZ, because it doesn’t meet stringent new climate adaptation requirements The post Surf-data centre faces new 3.8C climate warming rules appeared first on Newsroom. ...
The letters, which were published last week, were addressed to Indonesian Democratic Party of Struggle (PDI-P) Chairperson Megawati Sukarnoputri, National Democrat Party (NasDem) Chairperson Surya Paloh, National Awakening Party (PKB) Chairperson Muhaimin Iskandar, Justice and Prosperity Party (PKS) President Ahmad Syaikhu and United Development Party (PPP) Chairperson Muhammad Mardiono. In ...
Evicting more people from state housing is ignorant to the consequences of poverty, the Greens say, but the Housing Minister says it's a privilege that can be taken away if abused. ...
Evicting more people from state housing is ignorant to the consequences of poverty, the Greens say, but the Housing Minister says it's a privilege that can be taken away if abused. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Emerald L King, Lecturer in Humanities, University of Tasmania IMDB Between Netflix’s 2023 live-action version of One Piece, and its latest take on Avatar: The Last Airbender, fans are once again asking: why are live-action anime adaptations so tricky to ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Emerald L King, Lecturer in Humanities, University of Tasmania IMDB Between Netflix’s 2023 live-action version of One Piece, and its latest take on Avatar: The Last Airbender, fans are once again asking: why are live-action anime adaptations so tricky to ...
The government says it still intends to deliver tax cuts by July, but will not lock them in until they have got them past their coalition partners. ...
Kiingi Tuheitia Pootatau Te Wherowhero VII has hosted members of the Green Party Caucus at Tuurangawaewae Marae in Ngaaruawahia. The audience follows the King’s Hui-aa-Motu on 20 January, where more than 10,000 people gathered to discuss national ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Dr Rachael Potter, Research Associate and Lecturer in Work and Organisational Psychology, University of South Australia Ground Picture/Shutterstock Pregnant women and workers with children are often unfairly treated by their bosses and colleagues, despite laws to protect against workplace discrimination ...
Reacting to Prime Minister Christopher Luxon’s refusal to rule out introducing new taxes at the budget, Taxpayers’ Union Campaigns Manager, Connor Molloy, said: “Today’s refusal to rule out new taxes suggests the Government is nothing more ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Stephen Duckett, Honorary Enterprise Professor, School of Population and Global Health, and Department of General Practice and Primary Care, The University of Melbourne Aila Images/Shutterstock Aged-care workers will receive a significant pay increase after the Fair Work Commission ruled they ...
He’s bringing ‘Sophie’ back, yeah. Goodshirt’s ‘Sophie’ music video is one of the most instantly recognisable New Zealand music videos of all time. Featuring a woman listening to the song on headphones while her entire house is burgled behind her, the video won the New Zealand music award for Best ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By John Blaxland, Professor, Strategic and Defence Studies Centre, Australian National University A year ago, the AUKUS agreement was formally announced between Australian and UK Prime Ministers Anthony Albanese and Rishi Sunak and US President Joe Biden. The agreement mapped out the “optimal ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Andreas Helwig, Associate Professor, Electro-Mechanical Engineering, University of Southern Queensland SmartS/Shutterstock Steam locomotives clattering along railway tracks. Paddle steamers churning down the Murray. Dreadnought battleships powered by steam engines. Many of us think the age of steam has ended. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Carrie Leonetti, Associate Professor of Law, University of Auckland, Waipapa Taumata Rau Victims who experience family violence in Aotearoa New Zealand are treated differently, depending on which part of the justice system they turn to for help. But a new member’s bill ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Peter Tesch, Visiting Fellow at the ANU Centre for European Studies, Australian National University In perhaps the least surprising news of the year, Vladimir Putin has triumphed at the Russian ballot box and been enthroned for the fifth time as president. He ...
The Papua New Guinea Supreme Court has stopped a byelection for the Madang Open seat being held until an appeal filed by former MP Bryan Kramer is concluded. Kramer had appealed to the Supreme Court over a National Court decision not to review his application of the Leadership Tribunal decision ...
By Miriam Zarriga in Port Moresby Despite a “historic” ceasefire agreement in Papua New Guinea between Enga authorities and tribal leaders after months of bitter warfare, a young woman has been found brutally killed near Kaekin village, Wapenamanda. Despite the peace agreement and signing concluded in Port Moresby last Thursday ...
The second season of Ryan Murphy’s Feud is a sadder and slower entry into his canon of true story-telling, leaning heavily on a verdict about the cost of a single work of art. Hollywood heavyweight Ryan Murphy has had a bit of “ick” about him in the last few years. ...
[Please note, we are trialling something new for Open Mike and Daily Review.
In order to keep OM and DR free for other conversations, all comments, link postings etc about the US election now need to go in the dedicated US election discussion here.
If you are unsure, post in that thread rather than here. It’s not possible for moderators to shift posts from OM to there, so any comments here may get deleted.
Have fun folks – weka]
Thank you.
Good idea.
Nice one.
*hugs*
Really?
I thought the war on P was going so well, but vigilantes do it better than the law?
beats funding the police i guess
Is this our brighter future, where the PM underfunds the police and supports gangs riding rough shod?
They’ll probably get the contract for the new prisons , can’t be much worse than serco.
He’s a populist. Any bandwagon that looks as though it’s likely to generate both a following and positive press coverage, and you’ll find Key clinging to the side of it like a fucking barnacle. He’s utterly shameless.
Recall his ‘war on P’ comments…..reality is the nats have enabled this to grow due to their police resourcing.
And now they’re spending another billion on prisons. Such a success story.
A shame, should be on hospitals, at the current rate of knots that’s where this will end up, if not the morgue.
On Friday evening, when Pink’s deadline passed, the main street of the town was quiet. Behind the scenes, it was anything but
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/85386340/tribal-huk-clears-ngaruawahia-of-p-dealers-as-promised
Bravo to the Tribal Huk and the community supporting their views to keep their town free from P.
Do you support the alleged manhandling and assault of alleged P dealers?
hi all,
i am thinking of having a chat to some young teenage boys about consent.
i am wanting to pick brains of fellow standardistas for ideas/analagies.
i have heard the cup of tea analogy, and would like to see if that can be fleshed out, added to, or another way of discussing this altogether.
personally the idea of acting against someones wishes is abhorent to me.
i contrast my upbringing: loving parents, decent solid father, pornography was a well leafed magazine in a mates brothers bedroom, alcohol was something that was consumed responsibly.
fully 3/4s of these young men lack a father in the house and a significant number of them, the male is a figure of conflict. (custody battles, communication etc)
as for pornography, there is no comparison to yesty year.
thanks in advance.
gsays, great to hear you doing this, all power to you. I hope you get some genuine replies.
Sounds like those boys need more men in their lives, not less, as seems to have been advocated by many in that other post on being a bitch
[I haven’t seen anyone on that thread say that. Another moderator has set your comments to go into moderation for approval, so maybe be a bit more careful – weka]
You can always tell when dealing with bullies – they hate their own medicine
There are many posts in there on how the world might be a better place without men i.e. no wars.
[I have enough on my plate today without having to moderate you telling lies. Take the day off – weka]
I suppose it depends on the context (and make sure you run it by the parents/caregivers first, otherwise you risk just being a weirdo talking about sex to teens 🙂 ).
Thinking back on myself at that age, and what seems to work for my younger relatives, maybe the mind/body duality thing? Not to get carried away by anger/love/whatever, but to stop and say “am I being smart about this?”. That and “look at all blacks – being dumb off the field can still fuck up your career and life”.
Oh, and the difference between love and infatuation: love is when you know everything about the other person, infatuation is when you know nothing about them but assume they fit your desires.
cheers for your consideration mcf,
i am anticipating keeping away from sex and focus on what values consent includes, respect, empathy, boundaries.
reinforce the importance of consent as a foundation of character.
According to The New Zealand Initiative there is no rise in income inequality. That is if you conveniently ignore that a rise in the value of houses is income for home-owners.
It’s odd to me anyway that a rise in net worth is not classed as a rise in income according to the New Zealand Initiative.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11730940
I appreciate that you have acknowledged that there is a distinction between capital and income. In my view they are not the same, a capital gain is not simply income in another form.
Income usually produces an actual cash amount each week, month or quarter.
A capital gain is not realisable until the capital asset is sold. Even then it may be illusory. For instance most NZ’ers have the bulk of their capital in their house. Selling and buying on the same market simply means a different house, not any cash. However, I do appreciate that the large increase in Auckland property prices has given people to opportunity to buy cheaper elsewhere and release quite a large amount of cash.
As far as I understand the data, there has been no real change in income distribution in New Zealand over the last twenty year. By that I mean wages, salaries, business income and interest and dividends.
What has occurred, largely as a result of land inflation and stock market increases in the last five years, is an increase in wealth disparity. Around 30% of people rent rather than own, and by and large they have less wealth as proportion of the national wealth than 15 years ago.
I also suspect that some suburbs in Auckland, typically wealthy ones, have had a larger percentage value increase than some less wealthy suburbs. And there is no doubt people have used their increased equity to support investment expenditure, even it is often home improvements, and also helping their children buy a house/apartment. Going around Devonport or Herne Bay, virtually every house has been expensively refurbished in the last fifteen years, and these suburbs have become $2 million average house price suburbs.
Well that’s nice. I guess we just tell the increasing numbers of people begging on the streets that it’s always been like this. Same goes for those school kids who don’t have any lunch or are lucky enough to have a charity come to school and feed them. It’s ok kids it’s always been like this. And those growing encampments of “motorhomes” on the streets, yeah they’ve been there since like the mid 90s. No worries mate.
Is John Key simply lying about meth use in this country? He claims it is dropping but everyone else says it is rising.
Given Key’s track record on lying about crime stats I tend to believe everyone else on this one.
http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/315882/drug-clinics-reject-govt-claims-p-use-is-dropping
Risen as predicted by senior narcs officers due to their dispropportinate focus on that evil weed which saw a few leave in frustration.
BS as usual from the liar in chief with his convenient crime stats….collins grin widens.
Important points raised by Keith Locke
http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2016/10/18/must-read-bill-opens-door-to-extensive-gcsb-surveillance-of-new-zealanders/#comment-356501
Helen Kelly got it right
says Bryan Gould.
+1 – Yep Kindness one of most under rated attributes.
Thank you Anne. Invaluable.
“Kindness is not only the key to our happiness and success as a species but to our very survival as well.”
the Empire Strikes Back: RT (UK) bank accounts to be all shut down – no reason given, no discussions to be entered into
https://www.rt.com/news/363013-rt-uk-accounts-blocked/
At the same time they have cut Julian Assange’s internet connection in the Ecuadorean Embassy (UK) to the outside world.
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/10/wikileaks-assange-internet-severed-state-actor-161017101111181.html
And lastly, a senior and very respected leader of the rebel military forces in the Donbass has been assassinated by an IED at his family home.
Expect things to turn very nasty in Ukraine very shortly.
http://www.fort-russ.com/2016/10/assassination-of-motorola-last-straw.html
+1 CV Shocking Journalistic censorship.
And this is pretty shocking too…
It recently emerged that Hillary Clinton reportedly wanted to “drone” Assange when she was the US secretary of state.
Hillary Clinton on Assange “Can’t we just drone this guy” — report https://t.co/S7tPrl2QCZ pic.twitter.com/qy2EQBa48y
— WikiLeaks (@wikileaks) October 3, 2016
That’s gold. If I was US Secretary of State, every problem would get an initial “Can’t we just drone this guy?” Also, maybe some quotes from Archer.
At the same time they have cut Julian Assange’s internet connection in the Ecuadorean Embassy (UK) to the outside world.
NatWest bank is in charge of internet connections to the Ecuadorean embassy? That’s pretty awesome diversification.
And lastly, a senior and very respected leader of the rebel military forces in the Donbass has been assassinated by an IED at his family home.
Or to put it another way, a local warlord well known for killing prisoners annoyed one person too many and got his beans. The guy was a Russian who got his combat experience in the suppression of colonial uprisings in Chechnya and went to the Ukraine so he could kill Ukrainians, quite likely at the behest of the Russian government. I thought you were against foreign fighters and mercenaries attacking sovereign countries?
Hi PM, always good of you to reveal more and more about your personality.
War criminal gets his.
Motorola and his battalion are also accused of torturing captured Ukrainian soldiers. After Ukrainian soldier Ihor Branovytsky had been captured near Donetsk and was in custody of Pavlov’s group, Pavlov is alleged to have deliberately killed the prisoner on 21 January 2015 with two headshots
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arsen_Pavlov
https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:TN2y62U9b3kJ:https://www.amnesty.org/download/Documents/EUR5016832015ENGLISH.pdf+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=nz&client=firefox-b
Worth a read to know what’s going on.
https://intercontinentalcry.org/15-indigenous-struggles-need-know/
good read. And that’s just in the Americas.
That photo of the man whose village has just been burnt is very moving.
Oh lookie 1Billion for the homeless!!!!
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/85448143/government-to-spend-1b-to-sleep-1800-more-prisoners
Lock ’em up! Lock ’em all up!
Frank admission from Collins that the current government social and economic policies are producing more serious offenders.
Also, she calls 1800 new prisoners “an investment”.
http://www.newshub.co.nz/politics/government-approves-1800-new-prison-beds-2016101809
well in a world where prisons are profit centres creating new prisoners is indeed an investment.
Vigilantism and intolerance on the rise….
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/oct/17/thai-woman-accused-of-insulting-late-king-bhumibol-adulyadej-forced-to-kneel-koh-samui
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/oct/17/duterte-says-children-killed-in-philippines-drug-war-are-collateral-damage
http://www.alternet.org/world/india-cusp-between-modernity-and-madness-beef-ban-vigilantism
Think we are immune?..
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/85386340/tribal-huk-clears-ngaruawahia-of-p-dealers-as-promised
Slippery slope.
I don’t have too much of a problem with that last article, on the face of it at least. If people from that community can deal with the problem when the police and justice system can’t, then that seems an appropriate interim measure. If we lived in a sane society, local authorities and NGOs would start working with the gang to support them in their more social justice work e.g. the feeding kids thing.
Comments under that article are interesting too.
it is not a giant stride from Tribal Huk to Duterte …
http://www.stuff.co.nz/manawatu-standard/news/85201396/Skeletal-remains-found-in-gang-member-search-area
…and Im not sure who decides what is appropriate mourning…. or by extension religion,sexuality, work ethic or even race.
Would you have much of a problem had the target had been a bottle store owner?….or any other person that offends some other/s?
It’s not about offence. If the bottle store owner was going out and pushing spirits onto teens in a way that actively contributed towards alcoholism and degeneration of the community and the police were not able to stop that, then I probably wouldn’t have too much of a problem with locals stepping up and taking action (within limits).
I don’t understand the relevance of the link. Are you saying that all gangs are the same degree of badness? No gangs should be given credit for the good things they do?
Surprised you wish to conflate the posts with gangs (although it is mob mentality)
The original post was headed “vigilantism and intolerance on the rise”…and with it extreme behaviours….I wonder if you would have been as accepting had the target been someone other than an alleged drug dealer….i note that it has been reported Duterte’s extrajudicial killings have been used as cover for other motives.
What I’m arguing is that what is vigilantism in one situation might be useful community action in another. I think you want to condemn all of them on principle, is that right? Because people shouldn’t take the law into their own hands? Whereas I think look at each situation and decide if there is more good than evil being done. That’s why I chose to focus on the gangs, because I’ve been finding the situation with Tribal Huk interesting.
The ‘intolerance’ shown by Tribal Huk for P dealer who are selling drugs to teenagers seems appropriate to me.
Alleged P dealer
I seem to recall similar actions against alleged homosexuals not too long ago due to the “threat to the children”…were you equally accepting of that?
Obviously not. I’ve already told you I think I think context is important.
Im sure those dealing to gays thought their context was fine as well
Of course, and we stood up against that and changed it.
You seem to be arguing a principle, which is laudable, I just don’t think IS, Nazis and active homophobes are going to take any notice of it so it’s a bit moot.
Unless it’s the entire community that’s affected that has come up with a plan of action, then nah.
Me and my mates think P dealers ought to go? Big hurrahs.
Me and my mates also reckon corner dairies shouldn’t sell alcohol? Big hurrahs.
And so on, gaining kudos or whatever, before it it slides into me and my mates calling the shots.
“Unless it’s the entire community that’s affected that has come up with a plan of action, then nah.”
hmm, I think when we’ve had conversations around community in the past you’ve said it’s on the people who are affected by something.
“Me and my mates think P dealers ought to go? Big hurrahs.
Me and my mates also reckon corner dairies shouldn’t sell alcohol? Big hurrahs.”
Me and my mates think that the P dealers who are selling P to teenagers are a problem and we’re going to do something about it more like. Are corner dairies selling alcohol causing the same kinds or degree of problems?
Everyone that’s affected must be included, ie, given a genuine opportunity and encouragement to participate in whatever decision and/or course of action meaningfully – yes.
otherwise…
me and my mates reckon corner dairies shouldn’t sell alcohol and if you ain’t agreeing with that, then maybe you’re a part of the problem….
Everyone that’s affected must be included, ie, given a genuine opportunity and encouragement to participate in whatever decision and/or course of action meaningfully – yes.
That’s the ideal, and it would be interesting to consider how that could happen e.g. a meeting where the P dealers could speak publicly, or where people would the people scared of the gangs could be in a room with the gangs. Meanwhile, in Ngaruawahia they don’t have that capacity.
I have absolutely no idea what the organisational capacity of the community is. But whatever its limits may or may not be, vigilantism is not ever community action and always comes with the same toxic side effects/risks. (I’ve outlined those – the rise of an illegitimate and unaccountable (usually) moral authority)
I’m pretty sure we can rule out P dealers being able to attend public meetings, for obvious legal reasons.
“But whatever its limits may or may not be, vigilantism is not ever community action and always comes with the same toxic side effects/risks.”
And what if the community says go for it?
btw, the Breakfast video in one the links is probably a more convincing argument for not supporting the Tribal Huk’s action. Gross.
Not seeing what legal reason there is that would prevent a P dealer from attending a public meeting.
If a community has decided on a course of action, then it isn’t vigilantism.
if they want to talk about dealing P and there are also police in the room, then I suspect that’s a problem.
Did anyone ask the P addicts what they wanted done? Did they have any say in anything at all? What happens to them and their need for a fix ‘today’? Any support in place for them or are they just being left to twist in the breeze?
Whoop. No P dealers….in this street/this neighbourhood/this town. Chased out they were. Now what? Chase out ‘the bloody kids’ who want to take the stuff?
Agree Pat, that it’s the same social mentality (a part of the same sliding scale) that’s fueling and excusing wide-scale killings in the Philippines. And y’know, I dare say Duterte does some ‘lunch sandwich’ stuff too that’s welcome and appreciated.
It’s all fucking fucked.
Gang A is just pissed, gang B moved in on their turf.
Don’t worry though, gang A will sell them another drug, because profit is the real motivation here!
When drugs are illegal, it’s all about the gangsters.
Who cares if it’s a health issue when there is a buck to be made…
Thankyou Adam. On one of the few occasions I made a conscious decision to not be cynical… 😉
SOZ my cynical day stepping on yours…
I agree re the users’ needs, but I tend to think the solution there is to support users not argue against reducing P dealing to teens.
I’ve not argued against reducing P dealing to teens.
Likewise I haven’t argued for leaving P users to their fate or free for all vigilantism against alcohol selling dairies.
When you endorsed the vigilantism of “Huk” as appropriate, – “The ‘intolerance’ shown by Tribal Huk for P dealer who are selling drugs to teenagers seems appropriate to me.” – where were the addicts?
Draw whatever line you prefer between supposedly acceptable vigilantism and unacceptable vigilantism. You don’t think it’s dairies? Choose something else. Though it’s the vigilantes, having been empowered through endorsement that actually get to choose (that was my point when referencing dairies).
The downward slope heads out in a precise direction and ends in an unsavoury place.
When you endorsed the vigilantism of “Huk” as appropriate, – “The ‘intolerance’ shown by Tribal Huk for P dealer who are selling drugs to teenagers seems appropriate to me.” – where were the addicts?
Probably the same place as the teenagers being targeted by P dealers when you categorically opposed what Tribal Huk did.
Draw whatever line you prefer between supposedly acceptable vigilantism and unacceptable vigilantism. You don’t think it’s dairies? Choose something else. Though it’s the vigilantes, having been empowered through endorsement that actually get to choose (that was my point when referencing dairies).
The downward slope heads out in a precise direction and ends in an unsavoury place.
That sounds right if we were saying living in a society based on anarchism. But I think there are enough natural limits in NZ due to the state, the police force and the justice system for it to not go down that slope.
Pat is arguing the principle, you are arguing the ideal (“Everyone that’s affected must be included, ie, given a genuine opportunity and encouragement to participate in whatever decision and/or course of action meaningfully – yes.”), I’m arguing the pragmatics of what can happen in that community right now. I guess Pat wants it left up to the state. I’m not sure what you want (but I assume not leaving it to the state). I’m saying that on the face of it, I don’t have too much of a problem with it. That’s not actually an endorsement of vigilantism in the way you are suggesting.
Another example might be friends and relatives getting together and putting a stop to a rapist where there is no chance of that happening via the legal system. It happens, it’s not without risk (in a number of ways to various people), I don’t endorse it but I don’t have too much of a problem when it happens where there are few other meaningful choices.
edited.
To be clear. I’ve agreed that an unaccountable sub-group within a community making unilateral decisions based only on their own notions of right and wrong and following through on their own notions of appropriate action with no thought for wider repercussions within the community, just can’t clear any reasonable bar of justification and so therefor can’t be condoned.
Odd that you argue any downward slope leading off from that could only happen in a society basing itself on anarchist principles when vigilantism flies so directly in the face of anarchist principles of democracy and democratic accountability .
The Philippines (occupying a space further along the spectrum or down the slope) definitely isn’t a society that embraces anarchist principles. Neither is India (the other example from the original list of links I opened).
I’ve agreed that an unaccountable sub-group within a community making unilateral decisions based only on their own notions of right and wrong and following through on their own notions of appropriate action with no thought for wider repercussions within the community, just can’t clear any reasonable bar of justification and so therefor can’t be condoned.
I’m not sure that Tribal Huk are unaccountable in that absolute way. They went to a public meeting, they appear to have some support in the community. I’m wondering if they have levels of accountability within the hapū and iwi structures locally. This is why I said on the face of it, we don’t really know what happens there.
Odd that you argue any downward slope leading off from that could only happen in a society basing itself on anarchist principles when vigilantism flies so directly in the face of anarchist principles of democracy and democratic accountability .
I didn’t use the word only. Nor did I imply inevitability. I gave that as a counterpoint to my point that the State structure in NZ would stop the slippery slope.
(and as an aside, I’ve yet to hear the explanation about how anarchist societies do or would manage people who behaved in other ways, e.g. via vigilantism. But that’s an old argument).
The Philippines (occupying a space further along the spectrum or down the slope) definitely isn’t a society that embraces anarchist principles. Neither is India (the other example from the original list of links I opened).
That doesn’t have anything to do with my points though. I’m not saying that vigilantism is good, never a problem, or never a slippery slope. I haven’t looked at the other links.
First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.
Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.
Martin Niemoller
Then they came for P dealers who were selling addictive drugs to kids.
Doesn’t have the same ring to it. I don’t know the original context for Niemoller’s quote but I don’t think he was arguing what you are arguing (feel free to clarify what you mean though).
I think Niemoller was arguing exactly what I am….and if you don’t know the original context, thats a massive assumption on your part…
first they came for the (alleged) drug pushers….and i did not speak out because I was not a drug dealer
then they came for the pedophiles…and I did not speak out because I was not a pedophile
then they came for the misogynists…and i did not speak out because I was not a misogynist
then they came for the morally superior….
Well, no, Martin Niemöller was not arguing that criminals should not be punished. Just that we should speak out when the innocent are punished, even if we ourselves are not targets or don’t even particularly like the targets. It’s about the community protecting each other from unjustified persecution to protect themselves from the same.
Frankly, applying that to pedophiles and p dealers is a travesty, in my opinion.
and who decides the innocent?…in Nazi Germany all those named by Niemoller were considered criminals, just as less than three decades ago homosexuals here were considered criminal and were run out of town just like our alleged P pushers…when you allow insanity to prevail no-one is safe nor immune…..not even those passing judgement.
Are you really saying that you can see no fundamental difference between a trade unionist and a pedophile?
the point is those making the judgement may not…..ISIS consider anyone not adhering to their version of Islam fair game, just as many appear to think dispensing vigilante justice to alleged drug dealers think they are justified…just because you rate trade unionists highly don’t believe there are not many who would like to see trade unions a part of a distant past….by any means.
“and who decides the innocent?”
In NZ the State does. And the state takes action against people, including violent action, as it sees fit, even against the values of its citizens at times. Someone is deciding where it is ok to intervene.
McFlock, thanks for the comment re Niemoller, that’s how I’ve always understood that quote.
But that wasn’t what I asked.
P dealers and pedophiles have victims. Trade unionists, Jews and homosexuals do not. I’m astonished that this had to be spelled out for you.
Niemöller wasn’t arguing what sort of process should be used by society to enforce its rules – Nazi detentions and murders often took place under the cloak of legislative legitimacy, not mob rule. What he was saying is that we should speak out against manifest injustices in our society.
When it comes to p dealers and pedophiles, the threshold for “manifest injustice” is raised a lot higher than for victimless beliefs or even victimless characteristics.
“t’s about the community protecting each other from unjustified persecution to protect themselves from the same.”
….and as far as the German government of the day were concerned the persecution was justified, whether you accept that or not.
“Niemöller wasn’t arguing what sort of process should be used by society to enforce its rules – Nazi detentions and murders often took place under the cloak of legislative legitimacy, not mob rule. What he was saying is that we should speak out against manifest injustices in our society.”
Nazi detentions and murders happened under both mob rule and legal cloak…you state those illegal groups had no victims yet that was not the position of the government nor many of the population who blamed all the mentioned groups for all sorts of social ills and crimes.
I further note that the similarity to actions against homosexuals in our recent past has been neatly ignored.
Who decides the innocent….”In NZ the State does”
No ,the Judiciary do…through due process…not mob rule.
“I’m astonished that this had to be spelled out for you.”
Ditto
So the judiciary decides it, even though in the government that Niemöller was talking about the judiciary made that judgement in a manifestly unjust manner and that’s what Niemöller was saying he should have worked harder at opposing.
Niemöller wasn’t talking about the manner in which unjust rulings were made, he was talking about what our reactions should be to manifestly unjust rulings. Not whether it was done by courts or mobs, just whether it was unjust. And if it’s unjust, we should stand against it.
How is kicking out p dealers manifestly unjust?
“Who decides the innocent….”In NZ the State does”
No ,the Judiciary do…through due process…not mob rule.”
Yes, and the State rewrites the laws that they act within.
“not mob rule”
And yet if you are a woman who has been raped or a young Māori man who’s broken the law you will get a different kind of justice than if you are not. So this idea that we’re getting to now, that the State has a good process but people taking justice into their owns hands don’t is flawed. Hence my original comment about not having too much of a problem with what Tribal Huk did on the face of it.
“How is kicking out p dealers manifestly unjust?”
this is not about P dealers (alleged) per se…..it is about the rise of vigilantism and intolerance, and the increasingly extreme behaviours associated with that
Whoa there, vigilantism and intolerance are two different things.
Vigilantism is what happens when people perceive the legal system as inadequate, and there are good arguments against it. In some circumstances, such as the degradation of society, it might be necessary, however.
Some things should not be tolerated. At all. You brought up pedophilia, for example.
Other things that don’t victimise other people, such as being Jewish or gay, should be tolerated and defended.
If your problem is with vigilantism, you chose a reference that doesn’t actually address it at all. “To Kill a Mockingbird”, or even the old Peter Lorre movie “M” would be applicable. Hell, even Eastwood’s “Hang ‘Em High”. Not Niemöller.
If you think we should “tolerate” p dealers, I do not agree at all.
You might question whether the Huks actually came for the P dealers. Or did they merely frighten them away. Sure intimidation is not beautiful, but neither is selling the more destructive drugs into a community. Of the possible outcomes this one seems relatively benign.
According to the MSM, at least one of the P dealers got beaten up.
lol…ah i don’t often agree with CV (less and less these days) but he is right …you are very adroit at ducking and weaving but never quite well enough to hide the hypocrisy
I’ve kept to a pretty simple point: Niemöller’s comment was about our reaction to injustice, not about the manner in which the injustice was arrived at. And where p dealers and pedophiles are concerned, it’s a bit more difficult to react to their behaviour in an unjust manner than in response to victimless things like “being Jewish”. Any response purely based on the last is unjust. People tend to be more equivocal about how far you can go with a pedophile before it’s an injustice.
and in return Ill keep it simple…..we have developed a legal system for a reason, and if your lucky enough to live in a country where the Judiciary is removed from the Government then we should use it as intended…..otherwise we may as well have mob rule.
There is no halfway house.
And as the Niemoller quote illustrates no one wins then….not even those who think they are right.
and what about when the justice system isn’t being used as intended, or where it is but that doesn’t serve the people?
ok, two points:
firstly, that’s not what Niemöller’s poem illustrates at all, if only because the Nazi judicial system was not always mob rule, and also happened under legal cloak. Niemöller was talking about his behaviour and inactivity in that environment, so if anything it’s about the consequences of political apathy.
secondly, a legal system that fails to address endemic social harms and crimes leaves a vacuum, a void between everything that should be enforced and that which actually is enforced. When that gap gets too large, that’s when vigilantism and mob justice occurs. This doesn’t mean that an injustice occurs (although it increases the likelihood). It just means that the formal legal system is failing to do its job (usually because it’s become alienated from sectors of the community).
“firstly, that’s not what Niemöller’s poem illustrates at all,”
No?….he used that quote on many occasions over the years , more often than not outside of the Nazi context, but id be delighted to hear your deconstruction.
“secondly, a legal system that fails to address endemic social harms and crimes leaves a vacuum,”
and filling that vacuum with mob rule leads to what?
@pat Political apathy. Not speaking out about injustice. How many times did he use it in the context of a mob, as opposed to general injustice?
Complete decay of a system that’s alienated from the population.
Nobody here, as far as I can tell, is saying that it’s a good thing that the police are so ineffectual in this matter that they’ve been sidelined. Just that the gang’s threat is a normal and, in the absence of formal effective law enforcement, a legitimate response to a serious social harm.
I can’t tell which comment you are referring to, so it’s hard to know what you are on about. By all means have a go and point out the hypocrisy.
“I further note that the similarity to actions against homosexuals in our recent past has been neatly ignored.”
pat, can you please start using @McFlock, @weka etc. It’s impossible to know who you are talking to or what you mean.
“I further note that the similarity to actions against homosexuals in our recent past has been neatly ignored.”
That appears to be a reply to my saying point out my hypocrisy. Yet it’s a comment from you to McFlock, which I didn’t respond to. What?
“I further note that the similarity to actions against homosexuals in our recent past has been neatly ignored.”
Not ignored. Exactly as victimless as being Jewish or a unionist. Illegal in NZ until thirty years ago – until enough people started saying things against that injustice. And same-sex marriage was illegal until very recently, and many of the people who spoke out against that injustice weren’t intending to marry people of the same sex.
Funny how when enough people say something, the world improves slightly. And if we all say nothing, the world gets worse until finally there’s nobody around to say something for us.
@ Weka
https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-18102016/#comment-1246800
Steinlager All blacks and Alco pops weka ……………….$200 million per year in marketing/pushing ….
Pro-Alcohol laws passed under urgency ……….
Just been reading this blogpost (link below) which popped up on TS feed section. Agree with many of his ideas – but but not his conclusion – and he makes the mistake of thinking just because we have low density in NZ, we should automatically fill it up with people and immigration is a great idea.
looking at the density argument. If we have the amazon rain forest, should we just start building there because it is a ‘low density opportunity in South America? Nope – time we start to value the environment and actually try to preserve some Green spaces left in the world (including countries that for whatever reason are not filled up with people, cars and houses).
How the hell can we keep biodiversity, natural environment with that sort of thinking? Wow there’s a free green space, (Actually probably a thriving ecosystem) but in the eyes of some, Yay lets utilise it by importing someone from he other side of the world to live there.
Sorry I think the way forward with climate change is to actually embrace what little green (and water) space we have got left, live with less consumerism and move trade into a more electronic format but food production more local, make taxes fair, and try not to repopulate every last centimetre of the world with people.
I get many people are migrants here, or forced to be migrants else where by government conditions, but moving people around is not solving the problems it is enabling neoliberalism and the resulting problems to dominate and mask that economically it is not working.
http://bat-bean-beam.blogspot.co.nz/2016/10/on-need-for-sustainable-immigration.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+BatBeanBeam-AWeblogOnMemoryAndTechnology+(Bat,+Bean,+Beam+-+A+Weblog+on+Memory+and+Technology)
As someone who has often lived in sparsely populated areas that part of his argument made me cringe. He lives in Wellington, so good on him if he wants high density there, but fuck a policy that says everywhere else should be filled up. Empty spaces have value for many reasons, and I don’t see too much difference between his attitude there and colonisation ethics that thought that because the land wasn’t ploughed it wasn’t being used (or was empty).
I haven’t read the GP policy change yet, but I too would hope we could look at what a steady state might be, and then use our relative wealth to support other places to do the same. We should of course be taking far more refugees.
I got the impression the writer was saying we need to allow more immigration because refugees are in huge danger and need a home, not because he particularly wants to ruin our countryside. It’s a strong moral argument and I find it difficult to argue against.
Many of the countries where the refugees are coming from are going to take a long time to repair to become habitable again, and some may not be habitable again. That’s the “nice” solution most people want I guess. Look we’ll fix up your home so you can go back and then we hopefully don’t have to deal with you again.
Our current refugee quota is pitiful. I’m all for increasing the refugee quota. But doubling, tripling of refugee quota is nothing, compared to the current 69,000 migrants and 166,000 work visas being given out by the government. Economic migration of people with 10 million to spend or the skills category providing low paid Chef’s for SkyCity and fruit pickers for industry, is completely different to Refugees.
+100 save nz…refugees are different from economic migration
At one fifteenth the population density of the UK and given that the UK has screeds of open spaces, I’m not buying this nonsense that immigration will suddenly see NZ turned into some kind of endless concrete jungle.
Refugees need the support of other refugees – a sense of continuity and community. Larger numbers, not a few placed here and a few placed there, are required to ensure that. Taking only a few and dispersing them, ensures that a bogus argument about ‘lack of resources’ gains traction. It’s a manufactured scenario designed to excuse turning our backs on refugees and ensure that we’ll always have that excuse as a fall back.
On general immigration, well…we need to overhaul our infrastructure as a matter of urgency given the path we’re on with CC. We’re not doing it (hell mend us), but could quite easily get onto it, alongside any necessary expansion of those infrastructures, if we had, besides the political will and intelligence, the numbers of people required to do it.
Wouldn’t it make sense if, instead of asking about how many millions a person can invest (by way of fast tracking), we looked at how much of a real world contribution to NZ preparedness they could make by way of fast tracking? A lot of what needs done isn’t particularly skilled – but it will take numbers.
There will be an optimum number with regards immigrants. I’ve no idea what that might be. Maybe some academic papers that take into account NZs actual real world requirements has been published? No – of course not.
So should immigration levels into New Zealand be increased, or decreased?
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/entertainment/news/article.cfm?c_id=1501119&objectid=11730968
I’m tempted to say something negative but…well…anyone that produces a one-two combo of Face Value and Hello, I Must Be Going gets to put out as many albums as they like
and I don’t care what anyone else thinks dammit 🙂
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_yM7Xe3HrT8
And we’re off!
/
A United Nations signatory, ToddandClare.com, has published a report on the official UN website asking the UN to stop Julian Assange from using the UN’s name to dismiss a European Arrest Warrant, following a Royal Bahamas Police Force Investigation into child sex offenses involving Mr Assange and ToddandClare.com.
http://www.prweb.com/releases/united-nations-report/julian-assange-wikileaks/prweb13750603.htm
ahh toddandclare.com…. upstanding UN signatories…. a good bit of background perspective would be to go here
https://www.toddandclare.com
I can’t quite figure the story out but this is probably a better link for people to get a grasp of it (plus joe’s link).
https://www.toddandclare.com/datinglife/online-dating/united-nations-statement-julian-assange-wikileaks/
[lprent: See my comments at the end of this. Content hidden. ]
Assange is alleged to have had video chats with the 8-year-old sister of a 22-year-old woman using an online dating site, toddandclare.com.
During those chats, he allegedly performed sexual acts on camera and persuaded the 8-year-old to perform other acts on camera. Her parents reported this to the Royal Bahamas Police.
[lprent: Content removed ]
https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:ruXBSKQHQtYJ:https://www.unglobalcompact.org/system/attachments/cop_2016/322211/original/ToddandClare.com_United_Nations_GC_Member_Report_COP_1042016.pdf%3F1475591336+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
[lprent: There is a reason that this content has a link that is a google cache. The “member” has been delisted a few days after this document was created and uploaded as an attachment.
In my opinion, this particular document and the organisation is likely to be a false flag operation and if probably both false and defamatory. If you don’t think that it is, then email me. Otherwise anyone repeating is likely to receive an immediate permanent ban. ]
Damn…
Wow.
Did not suspect/expect that at all.
Thanks joe, that’s much clearer.
There’s more there about how they were working with Assange on their anti-rape message. Hard read. Pretty serious mistake them entering into an endorsement contract with Assange in the first place, but all kudos to them for now so meticulously documenting what happened.
Puts those Swedish allegation sin new light…if whats being said is true of course
I haven’t quite gotten my head around it all yet (e.g. what is meant by the UN support for Assange and why T&C fell out with the UN over that?), but mostly I’m just thinking here we go again, with all that entails.
It’s strange that the media haven’t picked this up given the first press release was Oct 11.
Mrs Darling-Hill is both the host of the family and the Bahama’s social services worker who’s involved, yes?
Chatlogs…those are historical, right?
Assuming the “we understand” in the documentation is all true and correct, I’m somewhat curious as to when and how any contact between Assange and the other website user (the 22 year old daughter) became chats and/or what not between Assange and her 8 year old sister.
Indeed, best not to rush into judgement until more facts are known
8 year old has sister’s password? Older sister leaves the computer on and doesn’t log out?
I’m curious as to, assuming the documentation is true, Assange could do something so stupid given his tech expertise (and by stupid I’m not referring to the sexual abuse, that’s something else entirely. I’m referring to his use of ICT).
Yes i also followed up on Darling- hill she is the deputy director of social services in the bahamas govt. As well as the social worker involved as well as the host of the 8 year old (as well a patron of some local charities)
Question how does an 8 year old get access to adult only account of 22 year old? and who bears responsibility for that ?
Question did assange believe he was communicating with a 22 year old consenting female ?
One thing is sure this is serious abuse of the 8 year old girl but by whom?
I really do have an open mind but it looks just a bit too cute
In any case i can see why the Equadorians took his internet access away.. fair enough. What a dumb thing to do
“Question how does an 8 year old get access to adult only account of 22 year old? and who bears responsibility for that ?”
I think that’s a separate issue than Assange’s involvement or not in child abuse. Open internet is pretty ubiquitous, not for all children, but for enough.
I agree the question of whether Assange knew he was interacting with a child is important.
As clear as mud.
( from the Kos article below)
BY FAX
Rt Hon Justin Trudeau
Office of the Prime Minister of Canada
80 Wellington Street
Ottawa, ON K1A 0A2
Date: 10.17.2016
Sir,
We’re writing on behalf of ToddandClare.com, a dating site in Houston with a legal obligation to our female members. We are officially requesting your offices to intervene on behalf of a vulnerable Canadian family who are distraught and frightened. The family attended 2 police stations in Nassau, Bahamas, on September 28, 2016, to report to the Royal Bahamas Police Force (RBPF) that their 8 year old daughter had been abused by Julian Assange using our dating service.
The subsequent mishandling of the initial stages of the child sex investigation by the Royal Bahamas Police Force, and the way the RBPF have passed information ‘off the record’ to the UK tabloids, is of grave concern.
The family say that they experienced anti-Caucasian racism in Nassau.
They have told us they received unfavorable treatment by the RBPF on account of being white. They say that the Bahamas authorities were more interested in protecting the reputation of their island, and closing the case, than properly investigating their allegations of internet child abuse by Julian Assange, against a Canadian minor.
The family left the Bahamas, because they did not wish to subject their 8 year old to a continued nightmare and anti-white, racist abuse by Bahamian police. In addition to the clear racial problem, this investigation is particularly sensitive. The way the facts of the case pertain to the family’s eldest daughter, a 22 year old college woman who is the elder sister of the 8 year old child, and who Assange contacted the minor through, could have wider legal implications for the young woman.
continues – https://www.facebook.com/toddandclare/posts/1191392577583146
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2016/10/17/1583749/-Julian-Assange-investigated-for-online-grooming-of-8-year-old-girl
hmm, ok, so the British tabloids have this? I can’t find anything online so far.
Sub judice?.
Not only is Assange a rapist, that so many people are absolutely sure of after swallowing the Deep State smear campaign against him holus bolus, but now he’s been found a pedo too, which I reckon the same people have always suspected deep inside would be totally the case for an over-geeky internet type like Assange.
Talk about lefties swimming in an ocean of confirmation bias.
lolz, that was entirely predictable.
+100 CV…it is a fascist smear campaign
Daily Kos has picked it up, and notes,
The Ecuador Embassy in London where Julian Assange has been living since June 2012 has cut his internet access (as reported by Wikileaks).
There’s something about the social worker in there too, and why they fell out with the UN
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2016/10/17/1583749/-Julian-Assange-investigated-for-online-grooming-of-8-year-old-girl
The web cache link seems pretty clear, but some of the other tellings of the story (T&C’s website, the DK story) are a bit ramble. DK is raising some initial questions.
Shows all the signs of being a spoof. From the protestations of the “organisation” to the way that it was associated to a “official” report pulled out of a cache for a deleted account.
Certainly defamatory if it is just a spoof.
I keep looking at it and it kind of makes sense but then it doesn’t. That no media have picked up says heaps. The inconsistency in clarity between the cached report and the post on the organisation’s website was the oddest thing, looks like they’re written by different organisations, one very professional, the other not.
So is the dating website a hoax too?
IF (and that is still an IF) its a set up i beleve that the conduit will be the
KINGDOR NATIONAL PARKINSON’S FOUNDATION
which appears to be a wealthy charitable organisatiuon of which
Mavis Darling-Hill is the founder off to search the panama papers now !
Wikileaks formally responds to this
https://wikileaks.org/Background-and-Documents-on-Attempts-to-Frame-Assange-as-a-Pedophile-and.html?update3
OK I am convinced its a complete scam. The dating website never was anything more than a front page.
Here is an interesting puzzle…. I have been emailing various RNZ presenters over the last 6 months with the following simple question…
Would asking Jonathon Colman whether he has Public or Private health care be considered an ad hominem question?
I had been in email exchanges with a couple of RNZ presenters prior to asking this question, then as soon as I asked the question I was completely closed down, very strange, not one response.
How exactly does a teacher become a principal, everything about this guy suggests hes got no idea about…well anything
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11730576
John Key’s ‘brighter future’…
http://www.newshub.co.nz/nznews/suicide-rates-highest-since-records-began-2016101811
Bear in mind his explanation for an increase in violent crime…
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/85448143/government-to-spend-1b-to-sleep-1800-more-prisoners
Perhaps he’ll try to spin the rise in suicide numbers not being a result of more desperate and suicidal people, but because they are more effective?
“A shop-bought helium balloon kit was taken from 76-year-old Nelson woman Patsy McGrath, who has long campaigned for euthanasia, on Friday, the Voluntary Euthanasia Society says.”
So, was she turned in by a relative or friend determined to intervene in her plans, or are the Police using public profiles in a open legal process ie submission to the health committee, to make criminals of people who wish to control their own destinies.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11730905
disgraceful Siobhan…it is her business and NO business of the police!
surely the police have better things to do with their time than harrass a 76 year old woman?…are the Police being politicised?…in which case we have a Police State
The USS Sampson a guided missile destroyer will visit for the 75th anniversary of the RNZN.
I’ve been satisfied for quite some time now that a port visit by a US Navy vessel would not be in breach of our law (with the exception of aircraft carriers and submarines). Of course, I expect some people will take issue with US foreign policy and militarism, but this marks a diplomatic win for our longstanding anti-nuclear policy.
A win all round
I take it the US neither confirm nor deny policy is still in place? Looks to me that New Zealand has backed down by no longer asking the question.
Who has Labour chosen to lose to Chris Bishop in Lower Hutt?
Julian from Wikileaks has had his internet privileges removed.
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-cyber-wikileaks-idUSKBN12H2E9
Its going to get bloody boring being holed up like that moving forward…
Perhaps this will give him motivation to move out.
look upthread.
Oh.
That’s not good.
Watch out for ‘Smash and Grab Banks’ like the Royal Bank of Scotland( are the banksters waiting in the shadows of a bank near you?)
…the banksters are after your life savings and assets… a mad Scotsman speaks out and gives his story
(once upon a time it was highway men …now it is banksters)
Commoners Watch Out!
https://www.rt.com/shows/keiser-report/362856-episode-max-keiser-980/
“Max and Stacy are joined by Joel Benjamin, local authority debt audit campaigner with Debt Resistance UK, and Nigel Henderson, who lost his hotel business to RBS’s restructuring division, to talk of the ‘stunned commoners’ in awe (at the brazenness) of the Royal… Bank of Scotland.
Nigel recounts his own encounter with RBS’s smash and grab unit which saw him lose his hotel in Scotland.
They discuss the tens of billions in fines the bank, taxpayer-owned RBS, faces from US authorities for the bank’s role in the mortgage backed securities fraud and whether or not there will be anything left for compensation of the thousands of small and medium sized enterprises destroyed in the UK.”
…and in retribution to RT? (banksters fight back)
‘Cancellation of RT UK’s bank account ‘crude British state propaganda’ – Galloway (VIDEO)’
https://www.rt.com/uk/363068-galloway-rt-nat-west/
‘Oliver Stone on RT bank account closure: ‘It’s a media war and UK sees you as a threat’ ‘
https://www.rt.com/news/363093-media-war-stone-rt-bank/
‘Backtracking from ‘no discussion’? UK bank says it will review closure of RT accounts’
https://www.rt.com/news/363086-uk-bank-rt-review-closure/
Link to five anti Putin/Russia stories aired on RT, the state controlled news org.
Fuck off, you first. Link to three pro Putin stories in the state controlled Washington Post in the last 3 years.
That will say something about how Putin is being used as the new scapegoat for every US imperial failure in the world.
One will do, Putin’s state sponsored, apologist pussy cat. I’ll wait. lol
RT frequently mentions criticisms of Putin, but does not make allegations against him.
Now, show me 3 recent Washington Post articles which are pro-putin.
lol
no link? You’re probably looking for one of those “frequent” articles, right now…
So not one link to an anti Putin post on the RT network.
Thanks for that, comradeski. lol
Your propaganda source is duly and cruelly noted.
@ Peter Swift …how about address the content of this?..it is a British story
…these are two Brits and two Americans, all well qualified, having a discussion about the practices of the ‘Royal Bank of Scotland’ which has destroyed thousands of small and medium sized enterprises in the UK
…do you these people are telling fibs ?…I don’t think so
I sometimes struggled and sometimes guffawed my way through that diatribe before hitting this clanger or alarm bell or whatever you might want to call it towards the very end.
Like the UN Working Group on Arbitrary Detention’s misguided support for a fugitive rapist,
Yup, a clanger.
/
A United Nations panel has decided that Julian Assange’s three-and-a-half years in the Ecuadorian embassy amount to “arbitrary detention”, leading his lawyers to call for the Swedish extradition request to be dropped immediately.
A Swedish foreign ministry spokeswoman confirmed that the UN panel, due to publish its findings on Friday, had concluded that Assange was “arbitrarily detained”.
The WikiLeaks founder sought asylum from Ecuador in June 2012 to avoid extradition to Sweden to face questioning over rape and sexual assault allegations, which he denies.
The panel’s findings were disclosed to the Swedish and British governments on 22 January, and will be published on Friday morning. Their judgment is not legally binding but can be used to apply pressure on states in human rights cases.
https://www.theguardian.com/media/2016/feb/04/julian-assange-wikileaks-arrest-friday-un-investigation
[In order to keep OM and DR free for other conversations, all comments, link postings etc about the US election now need to go in the dedicated US election discussion here.
If you are unsure, post in that thread rather than here. It’s not possible for moderators to shift posts from OM to there, so any comments here may get deleted – weka]
Please don’t tell us who won!
[now you know the moderators’ super powers, ha ha. (trying to keep this comment highlighted at the bottom so people coming in off the comments list see it) – weka]