Open Mike 20/12/2017

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, December 20th, 2017 - 107 comments
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107 comments on “Open Mike 20/12/2017 ”

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  1. Pete George 1
    20 December 2017 at 7:36 am

    The way two bills are being dealt with by the Government suggests that NZ First is getting away with wagging the dog and pup.

    Labour and the Greens say they are allowing NZ First to progress their waka jumping bill. The Greens in particular have compromised their principles significantly in order to allow the bill to pass with a unified majority.

    But when it comes to Medical Cannabis, a bill that is important enough for Labour to include in their 100 day plan, and important enough to the Greens to keep a Member’s Bill that goes further (and for Labour to support leaving that bill in), indications are that NZ First, with 9 votes to Labour-Greens 54, seems to be getting away with crippling the bill.

    It’s not just a significant majority in Cabinet that NZ First is thwarting. A Curia poll in July shows strong public support:

    • Growing and/or using cannabis for any medical reasons such as to alleviate pain
    17% illegal
    21% decriminalised
    57% legal

    • Growing and/or using cannabis for medical reasons if you have a terminal illness
    15% illegal
    22% decriminalised
    59% legal

    • Possessing a small amount of cannabis for personal use
    31% illegal
    37% decriminalised
    28% legal

    • Growing a small amount of cannabis for personal use
    41% illegal
    32% decriminalised
    23% legal

    • Growing a small amount of cannabis for giving or selling to your friends
    69% illegal
    16% decriminalised
    10% legal

    • Selling cannabis from a store
    57% illegal
    11% decriminalised
    23% legal

    The poll was conducted from July 3-18, with 938 people participating. The margin of error is +/-3.1 per cent.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11906718

    We will see what the bill looks like when it is introduced today, but Ardern, Shaw and Minister of Health David Clark have all talked down expectations in advance.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 1.1
      20 December 2017 at 7:46 am

      Shock horror! Coalition government involves compromise. Quick, put a patronising and negative spin on it!

      NZ1st will compromise their principles in supporting this bill. Looks like the dog is wagging the tail, or perhaps it’s more a case of “yap yap little weasel”.

      • cleangreen 1.1.1
        20 December 2017 at 7:56 am

        OAB + Pete,

        This morning’s RNZ reports = More road deaths today. (three truck accidents and deaths over night.) RNZ news 8am.

        Please let us compromise Labour Coalition Transport Minister Phil Twyford & the ‘Road Transport Forum’ (RTF) CEO Ken Shirley!!!!!!

        As trucks are involved again in Waikato killing on our simgle laned roads (highway 27) near Karipiro, while the rail lays dorment.

        Rail needs to become dominant again the ‘principal carrier of freight’, or else nothing will change on these narrow roads will change the climbing road deaths from ocurring.

        ‘Let us use rail to move our freight as we used to do.’

        Make our roads safe for other roads users please by using rail everywhere.

        • alwyn 1.1.1.1
          20 December 2017 at 9:18 am

          “by using rail everywhere”.
          Yes, we really should use rail because it is totally safe.
          Nobody ever gets hurt by a puff-puff.
          Oh wait.
          https://www.apnews.com/964d389a70a441b09ab6320e9402796d/A-list-of-recent-Amtrak-derailments

          • cleangreen 1.1.1.1.1
            20 December 2017 at 10:33 am

            Alwyn was that just (cync) there Alwyn?

            We were discussing about road freight vs rail freight did you understand that?

            We hope you can see the diffenence here as ‘road freight is the road killer,’ not buses.

            • alwyn 1.1.1.1.1.1
              20 December 2017 at 1:39 pm

              I’ll bet the people on the road below the railway line were grateful that it was a passenger rather than a freight train in that latest crash in the US.
              I doubt if they would, as appears to have been the miraculous case, have all survived if it had been heavy loaded freight wagons rather than comparatively light passenger cars that had crashed down on them.
              I think that a freight train would have caused far more deaths, don’t you?

              • McFlock …
                20 December 2017 at 4:39 pm

                So a train newly run on a line without current safety technology kills three people and it makes global news for days.

                A truck crash killing three people barely makes the national news in NZ.

              • cleangreen …
                20 December 2017 at 7:40 pm

                Thanks for the feedback Alwyn,

                Of course you seem to want to show *’the worst possible scenerio’ .

                You seem to prefer road freight do you?

                You do know that the report showed the train was reported to be speeding at three times lawful speed across that bridge at that time?

                If it was well designed by Engineers they should have not used a train track across a busy highway but it seemed Donald trump was right that the rail infrustructure needed upgrading so they need to plan seperate rail corridors if high speed trains are to be used.

                You could see in this case the bridge was curved and the train was going so fast it left the bend in the track as the train did in Spain as it was on a rail curve bend when that crash occurred two years ago.

                Rail freight is governed by much lower safer speeds then passenger rail is as our rail engineers tell us.

                We have a Kennedy road highway road overbridge in napier that curves simailer to thios accident and the NZTA are keen to bump the speed up to 110kms and in an audit done on this Kennedy road overbridge that states that with heavy truck flows at 90 kms approaching this overbridge is dangerous.

                So we are now afraid that trucks going at 110kms or 30% faster may hit the flimsy steel rails on the curved overbridge and crash below onto the very busy Kennedy road below carrying 30 0000 vehicles daily.

                * ‘the worst possible scenerio’
                So this is the opposite side of your comments here to what you posed above where in Napier any one of the 2400 hundred HPMV (63 tonne trucks) that pass the Kennedy road overbridge every day may possibly also crash over the top of a ‘known dangerous overbridge’ in the “Safety Audit by Hamilton based consultants Bloxham and Associates,” and may destroy the lives of many people here if speeds are allowed to increase.

                No rail is involved here.

                Problems today are that everyone is not keeping up the standards now as they are ‘do minimum’ planning everywhere, as I worked for ministry of works in 1970s this was not a ‘do minimin’ engineering time then.

                Merry xmas.

        • OnceWasTim 1.1.1.2
          20 December 2017 at 12:28 pm

          Btw @ CG – you realise MoBIE maybe in panic mode at the moment, as their use of contractors in various key areas are being looked at.
          But then …. “I promise, I promise!!!!! I won’t do it again” says it snr. mgmnt.
          ….. next
          These are supposedly experienced, ethical and committed people FFS!
          (Unfortunately they’re also people who can lie straight-faced to their Minister)

          ….. next

          • cleangreen 1.1.1.2.1
            20 December 2017 at 8:00 pm

            Yes Once was tim, Thanks for that.

            The contractors in Gisborne HB are crap and worst are downers as they are patching te roads only and when rain comes pop out comes the ‘temporary plug’ and a big hole emerges to break down our suspenion and sterring on cars when an accident occurs.

            Fulton Hogan are o/k as is Higgins, so is ‘Works infrustructure’ “was Ministry of Works” is o/k but seldom seen now sadly.

        • veutoviper 1.1.1.3
          20 December 2017 at 12:41 pm

          Re rail, see my comment to you which I put on the BSA post/thread (although unrelated to that post/thread) in reply to your latest comment there in an effort to make sure you saw it (a remark made by Shane Jones in Parliament this morning re Wairoa – Napier Railway.)

          https://thestandard.org.nz/broadcasting-standards-authority-finds-mike-hoskings-election-comments-about-the-maori-party-inaccurate-and-misleading/#comment-1428569

          • cleangreen 1.1.1.3.1
            21 December 2017 at 6:12 am

            Many thanks veutoviper,

            Very informative,

            We missed that speech silly me was out feeding the sheep at the time missed Shane.

            Will move on this as we have Iwi in Gisborne who want the rail from Waroa to be leased to them to operate a freight & tourism/passenger service if Government won’t re-open the leg to Gisborne from Wairoa.

            What symies us is that the first labour government under MJ Sagave opened that leg to Gisborne from 1942.

            So we hope Shane re-opens the final leg again so we can finish the link to Murupara / Galitea and on to tauranga and rotorua as planned in 1939 but never done due the war taking all funds at that time. This was called “the East coast rail” to Auckland. and was explained as far back as 1911 in Parliamentary papers on the “Ways & Means” reports at that time later covered by the rail famed PM Vogel and his partner MP Coats.

            This is the most isolated region in the whole country, and abused badly by successive national lead governments as labour finished the rail to Gisborne national never was interested in it’s completion stupid clowns when they were so into ‘tourism’ eh?

            Please look after yourselves over xmas and new year season as the roads are seriously beaten up now and dangerous.

      • Pete George 1.1.2
        20 December 2017 at 7:56 am

        Yes, coalition (and confidence and supply) governments involve compromise. But here the compromises seem to be coming from Labour and Greens, with little in return from NZ First.

        Medical cannabis was supposed to be a priority issue for Labour, but they appear to be rolling over with the Greens.

        Not a good note to end the year on, and it’s a problem that won’t go away, it has been simmering for many years. Finally there seemed hope of genuine cannabis law reform, until now.

        All Ardern and Clark have done is whimper over the last couple of days. Especially considering the Helen Kelly legacy, there is likely to be widespread feelings of disappointment if not betrayal (on the left especially) if a neutered medical cannabis bill is introduced today.

        • One Anonymous Bloke 1.1.2.1
          20 December 2017 at 7:57 am

          Your malice is showing again.

          • Pete George 1.1.2.1.1
            20 December 2017 at 8:02 am

            Very funny. Your irony is showing again, on malice and on “yap yap little weasel”. Do you do that deliberately?

            • One Anonymous Bloke 1.1.2.1.1.1
              20 December 2017 at 8:42 am

              Think of me as the [deleted] to your [deleted].

              [Absolutely over the line. Take the day off. Don’t go attacking people when you come back.] – Bill

            • Ad 1.1.2.1.1.2
              20 December 2017 at 8:43 am

              Pete, hold still until the wording of the bill’s out.

              I will be very, very interested in the regulatory impact statement.
              That had better show that the Police, Pharmac, ACC, DHB’s, Foodsafe, palliative care and oncology specialists are all on board with this.

              I think there are a number of tight turns for this bill to get around before it even gets to its first reading.

              • Rosemary McDonald …
                20 December 2017 at 9:46 am

                I found it interesting that a reporter yesterday asked Clark if he had spoken with the Drug Foundation…he had..but not on this issue.

                https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/99986020/medicinal-marijuana-bill-will-be-introduced-to-parliament-today

                So…I wandered over to the Drug Foundation and…

                https://www.drugfoundation.org.nz/news-media-and-events/drug-foundation-backs-medical-cannabis/

                from ten bloody years ago…

              • Stunned Mullet …
                20 December 2017 at 3:31 pm

                Pharmac will not touch medicinal cannabis with a barge poll.

                • Incognito …
                  20 December 2017 at 5:08 pm

                  And you still don’t want to explain why you think this?

                  • Stunned mullet …
                    20 December 2017 at 5:33 pm

                    Next time do your own research.

                    https://www.pharmac.govt.nz/information-for/enquiries/

                    • Incognito …
                      21 December 2017 at 10:03 pm

                      I don’t see why I have to ask or search PHARMAC to find out why you make those assertions of yours or what you base your opinions on.

                      Anyway, I assume that you base your opinion on this:

                      PHARMAC takes a consistent and evidence-based approach to consider the funding of any medicine. No application for funding any products that contain cannabidiol has yet demonstrated to us that it is the next best use of the public funds available for medicines.

                      I also assume that you have read the minutes of the meeting of the Pharmacology and Therapeutics Advisory Committee (PTAC), which reviewed the evidence for funding of Sativex: https://www.pharmac.govt.nz/assets/ptac-minutes-2015-08.pdf

                      It is common courtesy to provide your reasons/reasoning when somebody asks you in a public forum, don’t you agree?

                  • David Mac …
                    20 December 2017 at 6:25 pm

                    On Te Karare today it seems a Ruatoria based company: Hikurangi Enterprises have been granted a license to grow and process medicinal cannabis. I think it’s important that these early start-ups do all they can to be squeaky clean and above board. I was surprised to see children harvesting buds, near the end, about 2:40 into the item.

                    If I was head of Pharmac I’d be adopting a ‘Wait and see’ approach re: funding. Handled right, I think they’ll fund it. Too many stories about gangs clipping through security fences and we’ll find ourselves absorbed by topics away from what really matters and a reluctant Pharmac funding committee.

                    • David Mac …
                      20 December 2017 at 6:28 pm

                      Oops wrong item, sorry, I’ll try again.

                    • David Mac …
                      20 December 2017 at 6:31 pm

                      OK, I give up. The link wants to start at story 1. It’s story 3. Hikurangi Enterprises.

                    • greywarshark …
                      20 December 2017 at 6:35 pm

                      That’s good thinking David Mac. Keeping a sense of reality rather than good here is a good earner for the marae will be important.
                      It has been the hotbed of funds for criminal gangs who have their own codes of behaviour which are well embedded. If only cannabis could have been decriminalised years ago, but I feel that NZ has never really grown out of its stolid status quo thinking and just grasps occasional winners to milk them without any long term rational national planning. We used to have a Planning Council but that would have gone the way of the huia when ‘forcing market forces medicine’ down our throats.

                    • BM …
                      20 December 2017 at 6:55 pm

                      Click the share button, next door to the thumbs up thumbs down buttons.
                      That will open a pop up which will give you the option of starting at a set time

                      https://youtu.be/y2ECjowZUCU?t=1m8s

                    • David Mac …
                      20 December 2017 at 7:01 pm

                      Hi Grey, I think the government sanctioned growing of marijuana has the potential to do great things for the Far North but it’s a double edged sword. It has NZ’s best climate for growing it and as global resistance to medicinal cannabis eases export markets for a country with our reputation will open up.

                      ‘Brought to you with love by the indigenous people of 100% pure NZ.’

                      At all costs we need to avoid Maori leaders arriving at the assumption ‘We’re worse off now than we were when it was illegal, our young people legally married to game consoles and munchie food.’

                    • David Mac …
                      20 December 2017 at 7:04 pm

                      Cool BM, thanks

                      But that’s not a link to the story. Was it an example for your tutorial?

                    • BM …
                      20 December 2017 at 7:24 pm

                      I was just using that as an example, picked a random time.

                      I wasn’t quite sure what the bit you wanted to show started.

                    • David Mac …
                      20 December 2017 at 7:39 pm

                      I don’t want to learn how to do it. I’d rather flick another coat of clear over my dune buggy. Help me out will ya sport? The Hikurangi Enterprises story in Te Karare today. I’ll take you for a bounce over some humps when I get it sorted.

    • The Chairman 1.2
      20 December 2017 at 1:39 pm

      With overwhelming public support, one wonders why a number of our politicians are so conservative on this matter?

  2. Rosemary McDonald 2
    20 December 2017 at 7:55 am

    Pete George.

    One of the commenters on your website yesterday said that ” …Andrew Little hosted big pharma and they donated 155k to the Labour party …”

    I know about the Medicines NZ (Big Pharma lobby group) lunch do…and I’ve seen their “Election 2017” ‘invoice’….but I cannot find any evidence that $$$ were donated to Labour, or any other party.

    Is there evidence, or was the person just blowing smoke?

    My prediction is that Labour’s Bill on this will be so….conservative….that even National could vote for it.

    • Pete George 2.1
      20 December 2017 at 8:00 am

      Thanks for pointing out the big pharma claim, I’m not aware of that. I have asked for evidence.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 2.2
      20 December 2017 at 8:09 am

      Hi Rosemary. The malicious drivel at Yawnz probably refers to this.

      Here are the donations records. I can’t see anything in there that looks like Medicines NZ.

      Yawnz is a wannabe Dirty Politics website, so I wouldn’t read too much into it.

      • Rosemary McDonald 2.2.1
        20 December 2017 at 8:31 am

        Yes, OAB, I referred to that site in my comment to TC last night…https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-19-12-2017/#comment-1428262

        …but I also found this…http://www.elections.org.nz/parties-candidates/registered-political-parties/party-donations-and-loans/donations-protected

        ..so it all gets rather murky.

        FWIW…the Green’s bill most accurately reflects the reality.

        Whatever the outcome…folks are still going to grow and produce their own rongoa.

        Folks are still going to grow for recreational use.

        Enabling those people with a doctor’s certificate to grow and produce their own rongoa might just protect them from having to engage with the recreational market.

        And, thanks for the advice about Pete George’s site…but I’m perfectly capable of making my own decisions about what I read. I’m a great believer in reading widely and listening to the opinions of others, even if I don’t agree with them.

        • One Anonymous Bloke 2.2.1.1
          20 December 2017 at 8:38 am

          I didn’t say don’t read it, I said don’t read too much into it 😉

          I reckon we should get the money out of politics altogether: fund political parties via the Electoral Commission, from taxes. If other individuals and groups want to donate to the democratic process those donations can be shared among the parties.

          • savenz 2.2.1.1.1
            20 December 2017 at 12:09 pm

            Totally agree OAB. No political donations should be allowed. When you need to be a billionaire or even millionaire to become a US president – you can see why Trump prevailed. Not so sure that has been good for society though.

            Likewise in NZ, the roading industry donations for the Natz has stopped public transport and utilisation of trains. Chinese and overseas donations have created a lazy approach to exporting. Kiwis are encouraged to ‘Clip the ticket’ rather than actually running things and innovating. Due to gross government stupidity on policy and strategy, there seems to be less and less ticket available to clip and more intervention on what suits other nation’s needs rather than NZ. Locals pay for water while exporters get it for free.

            At the very least, donations should only be able to come from within NZ to stop our government parties becoming more interested in protecting offshore interests than local welfare.

            If you look at the UK and USA – globalisation has failed as locals start reacting to being unwanted citizens in their own country as cheaper workers and people are bought in to replace them and corporations refuse to train and locals become less and less skilled and more and more reliant on external citizens.

            At the same time multinational corporate welfare is at every turn and favourable tax accounting means overseas based firms pay less than local ones and can out compete them.

            Net result, less and less taxes coming in for government and the locals paying more taxes than other’s using their country to profit.

            • solkta 2.2.1.1.1.1
              20 December 2017 at 12:53 pm

              “Locals pay for water while exporters get it for free.”

              Reaally? Care to explain?

              • savenz …
                20 December 2017 at 1:06 pm

                Ask anyone who lives in Auckland if they pay for water – the answer is yes – monthly. That is on TOP of rates and government taxes and any resource consents we may apply for.

                • solkta …
                  20 December 2017 at 1:14 pm

                  They pay for the SUPPLY of water. No person or council is being charged for the actual water.

                  If you wanted to take water from the ground like the water bottlers you would need a resource consent and there would be a small charge for that (same as for them), but no charge for the actual water.

                  • savenz …
                    20 December 2017 at 1:43 pm

                    Whatever the wording local residents in Auckland PAY for the provision of water and it’s a monopoly to boot.

                    It is extremely doubtful unless well connected in government, that anyone in Auckland would be able to get a resource consent to take water from the ground, pipe across public land and then export it from Ports of Auckland. However it seems consents are going on in other parts of the country exporting water in a similar way.

                    NZ seem to have dropped the ball is that they get so hung up on wording or numbers which they generally rely on paid private practise lawyers to check, the actual practical reality, long term result and fairness of what they are doing seems to be completely lost on them. Sadly to some people too, but I guess they are the first ones complaining that other’s are not paying enough taxes for them while seemingly not seeing any issues with profiteers taking NZ natural resources for virtually nothing and on sell them with little to zero benefit to those communities who live there and actually leaving them with the unknown risks of such a venture.

                    • solkta …
                      20 December 2017 at 2:36 pm

                      It is more than wording. If the export water bottlers bottled from the tap rather than extracting from the ground then they too would pay for the SUPPLY of that water. Your statement “Locals pay for water while exporters get it for free” is nonsense.

                      Auckland’s water is not extracted from the ground but comes from dams in the Hunua ranges and now increasingly is pumped from the Waikato river: !!

                      https://blog.greens.org.nz/2011/04/29/aucklanders-you-know-youre-drinking-the-waikato-river/

                      It may be stupid to let exporters to take it for nothing, but they are not getting it for any less than the rest of us.

                    • savenz …
                      20 December 2017 at 2:54 pm

                      As usual you miss the point. We would not be allowed to extract it from groundwater in Auckland which is why it is pumped from Waikato. But again you miss the point of my post.

                      1/ Some Kiwis pay for water or the supply of it over public land. Note the pipes are already there and any improvements are so slow as virtually un noticeable. There has been water shortages in Auckland so having water one year does not necessarily mean you will have the same supply the next year. But that was not my original point.
                      2/ other’s including businesses who export it, do not pay for the supply of it or pay virtually nothing – even if the pipes are going over public land including conservation land and many risks are unknown and not possible to foresee, such as climate changes.
                      3/ Why would any reasonable person allow that?

                    • solkta …
                      20 December 2017 at 4:25 pm

                      @savenz

                      “2/ other’s including businesses who export it, do not pay for the supply of it or pay virtually nothing –”

                      AND the Auckland City council pays NOTHING for the water it takes out of the Waikato River and the Hunua Ranges. The cost to households is the cost of cleaning and piping the water.

                      “1/ Some Kiwis pay for water or the supply of it over public land.”

                      The cost is the maintenance on the pipes not the fact that it goes through public land.

                      I agree that we should not give our water away to exporters, but they do not pay any less for water than anybody else.

                  • The Chairman …
                    20 December 2017 at 2:53 pm

                    According to this investigation, water bottling companies are paying an average 500 times less than ratepayers for each litre of water they’re allowed to use.

                    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11859175

                    • solkta …
                      20 December 2017 at 4:10 pm

                      An incredibly crappy article. No surprise from the Herald.

                      “A Herald investigation into water fees set by every regional council around the country found bottlers were charged an average $0.003 – or one third of a cent – per cubic metre of water.

                      Comparatively, in Auckland, Watercare charges $1.40 per cubic metre (1000 litres) for water piped to houses, while the rest of the country paid an average $1.60 per cubic metre.”

                      In this situation the water bottler is not taking processed Waikato River water from a tap in Auckland. If they were they would be paying the same as other users.

                    • savenz …
                      20 December 2017 at 4:11 pm

                      Great link The Chairman!

                      Also there is a difference between water extracted away from the country of origin and water irrigated, as at least irrigated water falls back into the land where it came from (whether you believe it should be charged for or allowed, is another matter).

                      The water bottling seem to be hiding within the irrigation debate, to say they are the same thing and they are not the same business at all.

                      No surprise to me, that metro water charges 500 times more than water bottlers are charged. It’s the rip off culture that has been allowed to develop which means more and more people can’t afford the basics in this country while corporations making on average 1.5 million per year and multinational’s like Coke $500million a year pay a fraction of what someone on minimum wage will be paying for water or the supply of it.

                    • ropata …
                      20 December 2017 at 4:19 pm

                      But John Key says “nobody owns water” so that’s all right then

                      Workers building a new Chinese-owned water bottling plant in Christchurch sleep on boxes and balance on forklift trucks to carry out construction – huge level of unsafe practices going on https://t.co/Mwxi95TNnY— DaveMac (@davemacpherson7) December 16, 2017

                    • solkta …
                      20 December 2017 at 6:51 pm

                      It is actually British Common Law that says that nobody owns water. That is the legal framework we have inherited. I’m sure that Key would like water to be owned, but if the government passed a law to say that water is something that can be owned and it is the Crown who owns it, then that is a confiscation of something that must have belonged to Maori all along.

                    • ropata …
                      20 December 2017 at 8:03 pm

                      soltka, Key doesn’t know shit about British Common Law, his comments were directly aimed at cutting off Maori claims to water custodianship.

                      If anyone has responsibility for proper management of water and NZ natural resources it is central government, and Key’s comment was a gross abdication of duty.

                      It is now obvious that there are a lot of foreign investors keen to get their hands on this water that “nobody” owns for bottling and turning it into $$$.

                      A classic case of “tragedy of the commons”, privatisation of a public resource, and theft/enclosure of the commonwealth for private interests.

                  • AB …
                    20 December 2017 at 9:35 pm

                    “No person is charged for the actual water”
                    Why then is my bill from Watercare larger if I use more water? Do they need to buy bigger pipes, spend more on chemicals for treatment? What purpose does the volumetric component of the bill actually serve?

                    • Ed …
                      20 December 2017 at 9:37 pm

                      I think Soltka is only here to distract.

                    • ropata …
                      20 December 2017 at 10:00 pm

                      Technically you are only charged for the delivery infrastructure, water is “free”

                      Pretending it is a free, unlimited resource means the Crown and local councils don’t have to compensate Maori for exploiting their taonga. Even though water is life.

                      Total bullshit that leads to perverse outcomes, like greedy corporate exploitation and irrigation in unsuitable places, and poisoning the Hawkes Bay water supply.

                    • solkta …
                      21 December 2017 at 7:06 am

                      Yes it does cost them more the more water that people use. As demand increases more sources are needed. The addition of Waikato water to Auckland’s supply is a relatively recent addition. This water requires a huge amount of processing as my link above shows. Dams also are expensive things to build. If there were no volume charge people would generally be more carefree with their use and the total volume would increase requiring more infrastructure to be built.

                      $1.40 for 1000 litres delivered to the household sounds very cheap considering the service required to collect, process and pump the water across Auckland.

                    • solkta …
                      21 December 2017 at 7:14 am

                      @Ed

                      Yes i am here mostly to distract myself from other stuff, but I guess you don’t mean that. All I am doing in this thread is confronting bullshit that has been spread that water bottlers pay less for water than the rest of us. I can’t stand bullshit regardless of whether it is Key and co or supposedly left wing people on a blog.

      • The Chairman 2.2.2
        20 December 2017 at 2:36 pm

        From your Stuff link

        A ‘big pharma’ lobby group has sunk more than $150,000 into a mysterious scheme called “Election 2017 Project”.

        Financial statements for the pharmaceutical lobby group Medicines NZ show it spent $151,106 on the project, the firm’s second largest expense of 2016.

        Yet, also from your Stuff link it states, there are no records that show Medicines NZ donated money to any political party.

        Medicines NZ managing director Dr Graeme Jarvis would not respond to requests for comment.

        So where did the money go? Backhanders?

  3. marty mars 3
    20 December 2017 at 8:03 am

    some shockers

    stupid racists everywhere

    A Christchurch man says he’s “deeply disappointed” rather than angry after a tradesman called him a n***** and made gorilla noises at him.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11962742

    and this one – oh fucken dear

    South African expats living in New Zealand have revived an Afrikaans national day abolished years ago as a racist relic in their homeland.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/99925523/racist-afrikaans-day-revived-in-nz

    Be good when we don’t have to worry about homegrown and imported racists – they spoil everything.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 3.1
      20 December 2017 at 8:40 am

      That sucks. I hope the police get involved in the first incident. As for the second, isn’t there some sort of character test for residency and/or citizenship?

      • Psycho Milt 3.1.1
        20 December 2017 at 8:52 am

        There sure is. And it looks like being a religious fundamentalist racist who’d like to import foreign racial superiority ideology into NZ passes that character test. Three cheers for good governance!

    • Rosemary McDonald 3.2
      20 December 2017 at 9:01 am

      Some years ago, out on a fishing charter boat, there was a South African ‘refugee’ who persistently called the middle aged Maori deckhand ‘boy’.

      The look on Meneer’s face when I did the same to him.

      • Sanctuary 3.2.1
        20 December 2017 at 12:09 pm

        “…there was a South African ‘refugee’ who persistently called the middle aged Maori deckhand ‘boy’…”

        Many years ago I worked with a big, racially diverse bunch of PI’s – they were FBIs, Cook Islanders, Samoans, Fijians and Tongans. I was the only white person, so a standing joke when anyone came to complain about anything was to point straight at me and and say “ask the white guy”.

        As a tight team of friends, I was able to reply by saying “yeah, they are just a bunch of coconuts”.

        Anyway, one day this new minted South African Kiwi showed up. He’d heard us talking so he said to a huge Cook Island Maori guy (in a heavy Afrikaans accent) “Which one of you coconuts should I talk to?”

        Once I had saved him and taken him to a corner, I explained this wasn’t an appropriate way to talk to people you don’t know, especially in a thick South African accent. His response? He accused me of discriminating against South Africans.

        I shrugged and told him to be my guest, see how far calling an enormous Cook Islander “a coconut” would get him.

        He chose not to use the term again.

      • greywarshark 3.2.2
        20 December 2017 at 4:14 pm

        There was a simple requirement for respect from Maori all through the colonising period till today.

        When building the Roxburgh Dam some men from England were employed there, and soon after they arrived and went to work in their hats and waistcoats, one called a Maori tractor driver ‘boy’. Within seconds he was off the tractor, and with his hands on the collar of the man’s shirt, asked him to repeat his instructions. Which I think he declined to do, and changed his mind and manner.

    • savenz 3.3
      20 December 2017 at 12:22 pm

      NZ has been importing in racists for years. One South African guy who was coloured told me he was shocked to see another South African from the secret police who had detained his coloured parents in South Africa, had settled up North in NZ and (I think) joined the police up there.

      Now there is less talk of racism from the righties and more interest in exploitation of other to make profits, regardless of colour. Not sure how much progress there has been in the 21st century. Less democracy, individual rights and freedom of speech in NZ than 20 years ago in my view and then a narrow focus on racism and sexism related to speech, not in actual policy that has not got any better and actually over all conditions has got worse. A worker 25 years ago could survive on 1 income and be well paid with secure work. That right has now gone regardless of gender or ethnicity . Prisoners unable to vote. Passports being confiscated. Mass surveillance and non disclosure of that. People being detained without the right to a lawyer etc.

  4. eco maori 4
    20 December 2017 at 8:29 am

    Someone is trying to use a exsquse of a lot of advertising revenue going to the big TECH companys Fbook Google justify the merger of NZ ME an FAIR FAX YEA RIGHT one minute they are arguing for a free market economy and when it suits them we need to change the principle of the commercish commission that protects US from the media becoming a monopoly we all know that opens the door for big money to control our views on reality. So as survival of the fittest OUR media companys will have to become more inervative to survive. PS
    I would have a sore face if John Campbell and Hillary Barry took on the 7 pm show come on John you no the bigger the audience the bigger influence you and Hillary can have on making OUR SOCIETY more equal and humane. And you will show that a good Kiwi battler can win against the ODDS.
    I see a good article by Nardine Higgins on the Herald website about how Jacinda assertive actions have helped change our Australian cousins view on plans to dich tertiary subsides for Kiwi students in Australia the Bill failed in Parliament so they dropped it. This is how a Prime minister looks after her people Ka pai

    There is a good article on the Guardian website about the NZ WARS its title is
    New Zealand Northern war mass grave reveals bodies of British soldiers its a good read and shows the Mana OUR tepuna have so all OUR Maori culture people chin up and be proud of yourself selves not many cultures can compare to
    OUR Great tepuna art music innervation Intelligents ECT Ka kite ano

  5. francesca 5
    20 December 2017 at 8:38 am

    Jeez, next we’ll have the orangemen marching on the 12th July
    In Latvia the Waffen SS or whats left of them get in to their uniforms and march
    through town every year on March 16.It used to be a national remembrance day.
    Free speech be damned, it shouldn’t be allowed in our country when its banned in theirs

  6. Psycho Milt 6
    20 December 2017 at 8:53 am

    Free speech be damned…

    Quelle surprise…

    • cleangreen 6.1
      20 December 2017 at 9:12 am

      Troll alert again here. PM above. Ignore for health and mental wellbeing reasons.

      [Expressing an opinion on the substance of a comment is not trolling. A quick look at your commenting history shows you making that call on a few comments recently. Oddly enough, that itself is a form of trolling. Stop doing it.] – Bill

  7. eco maori 7
    20 December 2017 at 9:27 am

    The way I see it rongao has had a war waged against it from the booze barons for the last hundy years they have use the media to demonise a natural health product given to us from the God’s. A poor person can put a seed in mother earth and walar six months later they have some medicine this fact cuts out big businesses and this proper gander by the booze barons and stops them milking US. This is still going on the reality is that the positive facts far out weight the negative on weed booze has way more negative effects to OUR WORLD SOCIETY and the booze barons have conned US into axcepting all the bad facts of booze as being acceptable one would just have to resharch our western society health record to prove this fact
    All the broken people because they used booze far more than any broken by weed. All the people locked up in jail that started from weed offence and once they are in the justice system it’s hard for them to pull them selves out of it. This is a man made negative that’s is laughable we spend all this money on this dum ass law that has distorted OUR reality on a plant that has many benefits it can be used to displace some carbon based products so in my view the sooner we stop letting big businesses distort our views on weed to reality the sooner we can reap the benefits of this plant and. One argument is weed leads to stronger more dangerous drugs well I say booze has more of a influence to intice the young people to try stronger drugs than weed some young people get pissed up and will try anything as booze change there personality into idiots in half a hour this is fact not hearsay. Let’s approach this subject with intelligence
    and change the laws to suit the 99% and not just the 1% who just want the profits and control of us the 99% Kai kaha

    • ropata 7.1
      20 December 2017 at 4:28 pm

      Agreed, it is a waste of police resources chasing weed. Alcohol abuse is a huge cost on society but “liberal” governments don’t want to regulate it properly, instead lowering the drinking age and allowing booze shops everywhere.

      It’s very handy for Remmers professionals to be able to pop to the shops for some wine, but not so good for poorer communities when their young men are destroyed by it.

      Alcoholism is another side effect of the inequality/homelessness/austerity imposed on NZ by the Rogernomics revolution.

  8. Tracey 8
    20 December 2017 at 9:30 am

    Yang back in the news. Lloyd Burr needs to doorstep and houbd him for at least a week. Jooking aaide why isnt the National Party cutting this guy loose? Maybe tge new govt could start asking questions of National.

    • Ed 8.1
      20 December 2017 at 9:33 am

      Unlikely to happen.

      ‘The NZ mainstream media utterly missing in action for 9 years

      The greatest fraud in the BIMS reports that highlight the horror of National’s 9 years in power is that the NZ mainstream media unquestioningly allowed these scumbags to get away with it for a decade!
      Where the hell was the NZ media for the last 9 years when the conclusions of the BIM reports were so obvious to everyone else?
      Let’s call the last 9 years of National’s rule what it really was – class-austerity. A draconian policy that destroyed the most vulnerable but because media are middle class they never saw it and allowed them to get away with it.
      How can we have such an apocalyptic conclusion of 9 years worth of policy failure and the vast majority of NZ media not pick up on the enormity of damage being perpetrated?
      How did this all go unnoticed for so long?
      The biggest story for the mainstream media this year was demonising and destroying Metiria Turei for having the audacity to tell her story of misleading Social Welfare to feed her child with her chin up.
      We don’t just need a new Government, we desperately need a new media!‘

      https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2017/12/19/10-biggest-nz-political-scandals-and-scams-of-2017/

    • Ed 8.2
      20 December 2017 at 9:37 am

      Unlikely to happen Part 2.

      Bradbury….

      ‘After Canterbury University Professor Anne-Marie Bradley’s brutal research into how , the National Party is nothing more than a front for Chinese business interestsyou would think the sleepy hobbits of muddle Nu Zilind would wake up.
      They didn’t.
      The National Party itself is now wedded and compromised personally to wealthy Chinese interests. Jenny Shipley, Don Brash, Ruth Richardson and Chris Tremain are Director’s of the China Construction Bank, Judith Collins interaction with Chinese Officials to help her husbands Chinese Company, Oravida, to gain more Chinese money and Maurice Williamson’s love affair with Donghua Liu saw him become Liu’s personal handyman when doing up Liu’s batch and heavying the Police to drop domestic violence charges.
      The National Government are as dependent on their Chinese friends as the entire property speculating middle class have now become and that’s why National are still over 44% in the polls.
      What was most astounding is that 44% of NZ still voted for National despite a Chinese Spy being outed as a senior member of the National Party.
      I love how foreign media covering this story always seems bewildered and bemused that NZers haven’t done anything about the outing of a Chinese Spy in their own Government.’

      https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2017/12/19/10-biggest-nz-political-scandals-and-scams-of-2017/

      • cleangreen 8.2.1
        20 December 2017 at 10:40 am

        Bloody good article from our ‘other voice on democracy at TDB.’
        “Together we sand divided we fall.”

        • greywarshark 8.2.1.1
          20 December 2017 at 11:04 am

          This is the problem here in NZ. Too much building on sand and not enough solidity of deep basecourse thought to start from, no wonder we get divided and fall. Working bee anyone – to help pick up Humpty Dumpty and put all together again?

      • greywarshark 8.2.2
        20 December 2017 at 11:01 am

        Awww Ed
        She’ll be right. And my property is up by 15% this year, better than any share investment. Steady increase that’s what I like. Got to keep your eye on the ball, not get confused with all this talk about what should be. I go for certainties; my rising assets value.
        /sarc
        Better put ‘sarc or I’ll have some newbie lecturing who wouldn’t know sarcasm and satire if he/she fell over or into them.

      • eco maori 8.2.3
        20 December 2017 at 10:59 pm

        There you go all the article about the people who are suppose to have OUR best interests at heart are treating us like consumer Good and exploitationing us look like these people have all the power to do what the want. You see everything ECO has said about the police is true good link Ed to the daily blog ECO is going to win this contest Ka pai

  9. Morrissey 9
    20 December 2017 at 10:04 am

    Liars of Our Time
    No. 57: MIKE HOSKING

    We’ve been on the case of this ignorant, conceited, puffed up, self-involved pile of political bollocks, this prancing, pretentious, poisonous fool, this fervent devotee of Bill Cosby, for a long time….

    https://thestandard.org.nz/31082011/#comment-369908
    https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-15032015/#comment-985614

    He’s been busted by the Broadcasting Standards Authority for his heinously unfair and partisan comments….

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/72551742/ponytailgate-bsa-rules-against-mike-hosking

    Yesterday, yet again, the Broadcasting Standards Authority condemned him for outright lying….

    Mike Hosking misled Seven Sharp viewers when he told them they couldn’t vote for the Māori Party if they weren’t Māori, the Broadcasting Standards Authority has found. The BSA ruled Hosking breached its accuracy standard when he said to his co-presenter, “…you can’t vote for the Māori Party because you’re not enrolled in the Māori electorate”.

    The comment was made on August 23, just under a month out from this year’s general election. The BSA found Hosking’s comment could have misled voters.

    ….

    Hosking attempted to clarify his comment the following evening, saying: “The fact that anyone can vote for them as a list party I automatically assumed we all knew given we have been doing this for 20 years… and it went without saying. So hopefully that clears all of that up.”

    However the BSA said the clarification was “flippant” and too general to correct the inaccurate information for viewers.

    “The incorrect statements made by Mr Hosking were presented at a critical time, when voters required accurate information to enable them to make informed voting decisions. In this case, the flippant apology provided did not reflect a genuine appreciation for the important role of media during this time,” the BSA said in its decision.

    The BSA determined that TVNZ should broadcast a statement before the 2017 summer holiday break acknowledging its breach of the accuracy standard.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/tv-radio/99999324/bsa-says-mike-hosking-mislead-voters-with-comments-on-mori-party

    Peruse the entire list of liars HERE….
    https://www.blogger.com/blogger.g?blogID=9182619394637139656&pli=1#editor/target=post;postID=7019263873283614006

  10. marty mars 10
    20 December 2017 at 10:53 am

    I notice one of my comments has gone to moderation – I don’t believe any trigger words are in there unless ‘doofus’ has been added ☺

    [Nope. A whole pile dropped in there for no apparent reason] – Bill

  11. savenz 11
    20 December 2017 at 10:58 am

    Jeremy Corbyn leads criticism of Paradise Papers legal action
    Labour leader among senior politicians alarmed by Appleby action against BBC and Guardian over tax haven investigations

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/dec/19/jeremy-corbyn-leads-criticism-of-paradise-papers-legal-action

  12. adam 12
    20 December 2017 at 11:52 am

    It’s so nice to see good journalism. And once again International Consortium of Investigative Journalists, do just that.

    Here is how your release a leak, look and learn wikileaks.

    https://www.icij.org/blog/2017/12/four-caribbean-tax-havens-added-offshore-leaks-database/

    And this is so worth a read, the EU not quite coming up to the mark on tax havens.

    https://www.icij.org/investigations/paradise-papers/bermuda-luxembourg-new-eu-blacklist-omits-major-tax-havens/

    Good to see after they closed the trust loophole that the last national government had opened, NZ has fallen off the shady rader. For now, I’d like to see some work done with the Cooks and Samoa, looking at the influence of NZ and Australian business that keeps these countries operating as deplorable tax havens.

  13. cleangreen 13
    20 December 2017 at 1:22 pm

    Bill we have lost some enteries too.
    Bill said
    Nope. A whole pile dropped in there for no apparent reason] – Bill

  14. cleangreen 14
    20 December 2017 at 1:22 pm

    Test.

  15. Andre 15
    20 December 2017 at 1:26 pm

    Think your vote can’t make a difference? The Virginia State House has just gone from a 51-49 Repug majority to a 50-50 tie when a Dem won the seat by 1 (yes, one) vote on the recount.

    http://edition.cnn.com/2017/12/19/politics/virginia-house-of-delegates/index.html

    • cleangreen 15.1
      20 December 2017 at 1:30 pm

      Good point Andre,

      Everyone should vote as our forebearers paid dearly to give us this right.

      Merry Xmas.

  17. Morrissey 17
    20 December 2017 at 2:19 pm

    Liars of Our Time
    No. 58: “A TVNZ spokesperson”

    “We’ve acknowledged Mike Hosking’s comments made on Seven Sharp on 23 August about voting for the Māori Party required clarification. It was addressed the following day on the show when Mike clarified that anyone can vote for the Māori Party as a list party. There was no intention to mislead viewers and Mike’s comments were presented as a throwaway line made in the context of a light-hearted exchange between the hosts.”

    —–Unnamed “TVNZ spokesperson”, Tuesday 19 December 2017

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/tv-radio/99999324/bsa-says-mike-hosking-mislead-voters-with-comments-on-mori-party

    Catch up with ALL the Liars….

    http://morrisseybreen.blogspot.co.nz/

  18. Tracey 18
    20 December 2017 at 2:39 pm

    In light of Matt Damons comments and Minnie Driver’s on his, this is a compelling read

    ” In the weeks after Jodi Kantor and Megan Twohey first reported the story in the New York Times, as colleagues and strangers on the internet moved to identify the Weinsteins within their own industries, I felt uneasy. Behind every brave outing I saw a legal liability. I suppose that’s what happens when you know enough men with money. Such men are minor kings among us, men with lawyer-soldiers at their employ who can curtail certain kinds of talk. While I do believe in false allegations, and I do believe that women can be bullies, it’s hard, sometimes, not to be cynical about the defence. Some men love free speech almost as much as they love libel lawyers. ”

    This is a well thought out article. Worth the read.

    https://www.theguardian.com/news/2017/dec/19/reckoning-with-a-culture-of-male-resentment-sexual-harassment?CMP=fb_gu

    • Fran 18.1
      20 December 2017 at 10:18 pm

      Thank you Tracey, this was indeed worth the read. Her point about “losers” near the end is particularly thought provoking and certainly offers a plausible explanation for the “male backlash against feminism.” Much to ponder here.

  19. The Chairman 19
    20 December 2017 at 3:46 pm

    Merely acting on behalf of a constituent or helping to install another spy?
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11962652

  20. eco maori 20
    20 December 2017 at 4:19 pm

    It’s good to see a clean up of MSM it’s happening to the justice department to yes this is the positive thing getting people to lead our state services whom can self anerlise and admite there mistakes bigots will never be able to do this so they will have to retire Ka pai.
    I will have to learn how to cut and paste links to the article I read thanks ropata for the Guardian link. I have decided to keep my dignity and remain humble and keep my ego in check as not all the police have a beef with ECO so I will try and keep the insult to my self beside they like to push my buttons and me resistanceing will piss them off more lol so Ka kite ano

  21. ropata 21
    20 December 2017 at 5:11 pm

    PM’s closing speech of 2017

    ‘I’ve learned when you say ‘let’s do this’, you actually can.’ Head on over to our Facebook page now to watch PM @jacindaardern’s last speech of the year in Parliament #LIVE ▶️ https://t.co/fjEaIBdM8v— New Zealand Labour (@nzlabour) December 20, 2017

    https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js

  23. eco maori 23
    20 December 2017 at 5:59 pm

    I disagree with Ian McKellen he is trying to put a smiley face on the actions of harvey weinstein and Co for there disrespect of our Lady’s with an excuse that Lady’s had pictures of themselves that indicated they were open to have sex with the directors of the film.
    1 Who was is in control of the film theatre industry men
    2 who set the culture of these industries men
    3 these ladies had to do that to advance there career this is the culture men with power have set these industries up so they could use these ladies as there toys this is why I will never give permission for my mokos to enter those jobs. This is 2017 and all those things that happen in the past should not be used to justify the abuse of our Lady’s now I say once again if one cannot admit they are wrong than they are bigots so retire and retire your dum ass views with them its time for equality for our ladies Ka kite ano

  24. UncookedSelachimorpha 24
    20 December 2017 at 7:16 pm

    The make up of the “Tax Working Group” is discouraging in my opinion. Of the 10 members, 6 are clearly in the camp of those who serve the interests of the wealthiest 1% (my ** below). When even one member from ten would overrepresent that group.

    I don’t see any substantial change coming from this, unfortunately.

    Professor Craig Elliffe, University of Auckland ** (formerly KPMG / Chapman Tripp)
    Joanne Hodge, former tax partner at Bell Gully **
    Kirk Hope, Chief Executive of Business New Zealand **
    Nick Malarao, senior partner at Meredith Connell **
    Geof Nightingale, partner at PwC New Zealand **
    Robin Oliver, former Deputy Commissioner at Inland Revenue
    Hinerangi Raumati, Chair of Parininihi ki Waitotara Inc
    Michelle Redington, Head of Group Taxation and Insurance at Air New Zealand **
    Bill Rosenberg, Economist and Director of Policy at the CTU
    Marjan Van Den Belt, Assistant Vice Chancellor (Sustainability) at Victoria University

  25. Ed 25
    20 December 2017 at 9:30 pm

    It’s appalling people rely on charity to be fed.
    Pay people properly.
    Give everyone jobs.
    Give everyone a good house.

    https://i.stuff.co.nz/life-style/christmas/99726479/poverty-doesnt-stop-at-christmas-how-you-can-help-vulnerable-kiwis