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Open Mike 20/09/2016

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, September 20th, 2016 - 287 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

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Step up to the mike …

287 comments on “Open Mike 20/09/2016”

  1. Manuka AOR 1

    Keith Olbermann on Trump, – 176 remarks by the US Republican presidential nominee.
    http://www.vox.com/2016/9/14/12919744/trump-keith-olbermann

  2. Paul 2

    Reporter Chris Chang interviews 22-year-old Chloe Swarbrick who wants to be the mayor of Auckland.

    http://tvnz.co.nz/q-and-a-news/chloe-swarbrick-wants-auckland-s-top-job-video-6493381

    Build The Surge For Chloe Swarbrick!
    Chris Trotter
    http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2016/09/19/build-the-surge-for-chloe-swarbrick/

    • Manuka AOR 2.1

      I agree with Chris T. Chloe is like a young Helen, and somewhere down the line she will very likely have a significant role in shaping the future for many.

      • Colonial Viper 2.1.1

        A 22 year old who wants to be Mayor of Auckland, how horrific.

        Well, John Key always wanted to be PM since he was a boy. Why not support those who want political power ahead of all else?

        • marty mars 2.1.1.1

          I have to agree cv. Not about the power bit.

          • save nz 2.1.1.1.1

            Not so sure about Chloe’s pro development endorsements. Her policy reads like the Young Natz on the property development roundtable.

        • Leftie 2.1.1.2

          “John Key always wanted to be PM since he was a boy” rofl yeah right, more like when the currency trading puppet was told by his American string pulling masters.

          • Puckish Rogue 2.1.1.2.1

            Yes because the very idea of someone having a previous career before becoming a politician is so unbelievable these days

            • Leftie 2.1.1.2.1.1

              No, its not at all Puckish Rogue. You know John key’s back story doesn’t seem to add up. Too much of a Crosby Textor fabrication maybe? and since when has anyone from the Herald, like John Roughan for instance, been honest and told the truth?

              • Puckish Rogue

                Dude you probably think 9/11 was a conspiracy, that there’s something up with chemtrails and that the moon landings were faked so I’m comfortable with you thinking theres something up with John Keys backstory

                (Don’t worry about those black helicopters over your house, its totally coincidental)

                • Leftie

                  Is that the best you can do? What black helicopters? And I don’t have any “9/11, chemtrails and moon landings” conspiracy theories and it’s pretty obvious that you are not “comfortable” either Puckish Rogue.

                • Stuart Munro

                  2 planes 3 buildings mate – something ain’t right there.

                  • Bob

                    You’ll need a bit more detail than that, otherwise 10 pin bowling is impossible! (1 ball, 10 pins, something ain’t right there…)

                    • gsays

                      hi bob, why did wtc tower 7 collapse?

                      the one the bbc reprted as having collapsed, before the tower collapsed.

                    • Stuart Munro

                      A plane ain’t a bowling ball Bill – the pins don’t destroy a ball but a plane that hits a building isn’t much more than a cloud of debris. Now I wasn’t there – don’t know everything about it – but the official story does not come close to explaining what happened.
                      Any particular reason you played the false analogy card?

                    • Bob

                      Stuart
                      “WTC 7 collapsed because of fires fueled by office furnishings. It did not collapse from explosives or from diesel fuel fires.” Conspiracy theorists have long pointed to the collapse of the 47-story structure as key evidence that the U.S. government orchestrated or abetted the 9/11 attacks” http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/design/a3524/4278874/

                      So the 10 pin bowling analogy stands.

                    • Stuart Munro

                      Not remotely Bob – for your bowling ball to be a credible analogy the plane would need to be substantially intact – enough to support a hypothesis that its kinetic energy contributed materially to the collapse. High rise buildings do not collapse from office materials fires – they rarely collapse at all because fire is one of the things they are designed to withstand.

                      You’ll have to do better than that.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      …for example, you don’t appear to understand the meaning of “kinetic”.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      There’s a zero percent chance that office fires caused the collapse of WTC7.

                      Popular Mechanics, and the NIST report, have it demonstrably wrong.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      This lame chiropracter has fuck all engineering competence either, for that matter. Otherwise their takedown of NIST’s analysis would be delivered using Maths in an appropriate technical journal.

                    • McFlock

                      It’s okay, apparently zero percent has a margin for error that’s just as wide as 50/50 lol

                    • Colonial Viper

                      OAB, this “lame chiropractor” knows quite a bit about mechanics, and NIST have it 100% wrong.

                    • cv trying to be intellectual yet remaining idiotic is a fail – you rely on others expertise, own up to that one mate, save yourself some OAB learning which I’m sure is coming, deservedly so imo.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      of course I rely on others’ expertise, I ain’t no genius level savant.

                    • gsays

                      wicked!
                      set fire to a few la-zy-boys, and down comes a 47 story building, 7 hours later.

                      who woulda thunk.

                  • One Anonymous Bloke

                    No Stuart, it is you who “has to do better than that”: your incompetence at reading a detailed engineering analysis (such as NIST’s report on WTC7, for example) is evidence of nothing.

                    Your comments clearly reveal said incompetence, in case you’re wondering.

                    • Stuart Munro

                      Charming –

                      A Popular Mechanics article that addresses none of the the anomalies the collapse raises is enough to satisfy you?
                      It is, as the article reports a unique event. There have been numerous high rise fires around the world and none of them caused collapses. Done any firefighting OAB? Thought not.

                      Do you suppose any of those buildings contained office furnishings? You know they most probably did.

                      To cause a structural failure of the steel encased in concrete columns requires very high temperatures. These typically do not occur for sustained periods in office block fires. The fuel is exhausted or fails to burn in such a way as to maintain the 1000 degree plus temperatures for long enough. To obtain the effect would have required the building to act somewhat like a chimney or blast furnace – blast furnaces being a contrivance invented because ordinary fires do not reach temperatures that melt steel. Had the building chimneyed video would have shown this.

                      The clincher is probably the conjecture about the decibel level of thermite charges – no witness reports of explosions the report claims. Human attention is a focused phemonon and people on the spot at the time may have been slightly distracted. But an engineer would look for robust physical evidence rather than bystander conjecture.

                      But since you’re so pro OAB – you’d better tell us something to enlighten us.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      I note that NIST ≠ Popular Mechanics, despite the latter’s established credibility.

                    • Stuart Munro

                      Still nothing evidence based OAB – put up or shut up.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      No Stuart, I’ve cited NIST’s WTC7 analysis. If you can’t demonstrate it’s flawed using appropriate engineering calculations your reckons have no standing.

                      I’m happy to let them speak for me in this matter.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      OAB the NIST analysis of the WTC7 failure is completely wrong.

                      Get it into your head.

                      That report is not to be relied upon.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      …I seen it! Or at least, Jesse Ventura seen it, and he’s inphalloble!

                  • One Anonymous Bloke

                    Long on rhetoric, short on Maths. Pack a sad, Stu.

                    Personally, I’m pretty sure US foreign policy was a contributing factor (not as much as the lame tanties of wannabe hero boys who think daesh are the solution, but still), and the buildings collapsed exactly as the various engineering reports describe.

                    • Stuart Munro

                      Still seen no maths from you OAB.

                      Can’t debate with someone too frightened to put up any evidence – but that would require you to have read and understood the NIST report. And I don’t think the NIST report is the basis of your disagreement for some reason.

                      So what’s your beef?

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      My confidence in NIST is based on:

                      1. Common sense.

                      2. My personal experiences with engineering software.

                      3. In this context, I know what kinetic means, and you don’t.

                    • Stuart Munro

                      So – you go with the establishment view without trying to understand the evidence. Congratulations – you probably wouldn’t have understood it anyway.

                      ‘Common sense’ is neither abundant nor shared.

                      Engineering software is neither here nor there.

                      I know perfectly well what kinetic means – but I’m so impressed by your dishonest attempt at one-upmanship.

                      .

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      1. It would take far too many engineers to be part of the conspiracy.

                      2. It would be horribly expensive and time consuming to concoct the false software required.

                      3. You used the word first, apparently blissfully unaware of the fact that thermal expansion is kinetic.

                      The stupid consequences of stupid US foreign policy fail do not require a giant conspiracy of civil and structural engineers.

                    • Stuart Munro

                      Let’s be clear here – I don’t have all the evidence on 9/11 – it’s not really a big deal for me, but I have read the substance of shortcomings of the NIST report.

                      The first and largest is that NIST is not a professional engineering body – it was a political assemblage like FEMA, and thus it didn’t follow the kinds of processes that engineers usually would. Most specifically it had a tight timeframe to report in, whereas engineers usually want to get to the bottom of things however long that might take.

                      There was a lot of computer modelling – but computer modelling is not necessarily reflective of reality. Even among impartial operators there is a temptation to adjust data points until you arrive at the solution you desire – a criticism that was made of climactic models that predicted global warming.

                      The prevailing engineering criticism of the NIST report considers the collapse anomalous. The building imploded symetrically – this is not an easy feat to achieve – the leading experts on it, demolitions engineers, build very complex firing plans to achieve it, and their impression of film of the building is generally that it was demolished.

                      If it were demolished the support beams would typically be cut with thermite charges or hexagen cutting bars. This would produce the symmetrical implosion that a randomly occurring natural fire would be unlikely to replicate.

                      Such a demolition would leave ample chemical and particulate evidence. There is evidence of thermite microspheres consistent with demolition, but it is contested, a debate which I imagine neither of us is qualified to parse.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      a criticism that was made of climactic models that predicted global warming.

                      Svante Arrhenius’ adjusted the data of his global circulation models until they produced warming, and that’s the reason they accurately predicted the consequences of the greenhouse effect?

                      Or are you talking about the models the IPCC cites, which predict the lower range of consequences?

                      Or are you just galloping with Mr. Gish?

                    • Colonial Viper

                      My confidence in NIST is based on:

                      1. Common sense.

                      2. My personal experiences with engineering software.

                      3. In this context, I know what kinetic means, and you don’t.

                      No, you’re wrong. You should have zero confidence in NIST. They have got it wrong when it comes to WTC7. Their analysis is faulty in the extreme.

                      There is zero chance that WTC7 collapsed due to fires.

                    • Stuart Munro

                      A computer model is not evidence.

                      The capacity to adjust results makes them deservedly suspect.

                      But the object of climactic modelling was originally to understand the interrelations of complex systems, not to produce evidentiary quality outcomes to sway a political debate.

                      They were useful for that. More refined models eventually become predictive and reliable – but those of us who are not climate scientists cannot determine how reliable they are.

                      We do better with robust concrete data like glacier shrinkage, vegetation patterns, weather event frequency and so forth.

                      & CV agreed – the thing about NIST is that they were a Bush creation, and Bush was not overattached to the truth, as various WMD pronouncements established.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      @CV

                      Funny how you are confident in your opinion of NIST’s work and then fail to summarise it.

                      Or perhaps you’re dishonest as opposed to incompetent, in which case I suppose it’s not really funny, eh.

                      My personal experience of your unethical rhetoric suggests the latter, but that doesn’t really matter: Occam’s Razor provides your inability to present the Maths involved as sufficient to support the former hypothesis, and charity does the rest.

                      @Stuart: Arrhenius didn’t use a computer.

                    • Stuart Munro

                      Cheap shots and no content – I neither know nor care who Arrhenius is.

                      Occam’s razor – principals are not to be multiplied beyond necessity – excludes him.

                      You want math when the evidence is microspheres.

                      Disingenuous.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      @Stuart – Svante Arrhenius published his model of the atmosphere in 1896. Everything he predicted has occurred, within the limits of accuracy provided by the model.

                      This is the sense of George Box’s aphorism – “all models are wrong, some are useful”.

                      To criticise NIST’s model as not describing the exact minutiae of the collapse of WTC7 is indicative of a fundamental misunderstanding of what models are for: they assist curiosity.

                      Of course, in the stupid world where engineers are in league with the Illuminatii this cuts no ice. Still, maths, eh. Got any?

                    • Stuart Munro

                      Thanks – always good to know.

                      But no, – I don’t have any maths on building 7. Nor do I need any.

                      What math explains the presence of thermite microspheres?

                      If they were present in large quantities as some chemists and engineers state then no amount of modelling can overturn the presumption that thermite explosives were present.

                      NIST made no such tests.

                      http://journalof911studies.com/volume/2008/Ryan_NIST_and_Nano-1.pdf

                      I’d love, personally, to have been in a position to check out samples for myself, but what I have is hearsay from two groups of engineers. One group has a potential political motive to support the establishment story, the other may be provocative trouble makers for all I know. Still, NIST should have done the tests.

                      There were the Moscow apartment bombings of 1999 as a precedent, and the buildings in the Twin Towers district were plausible targets for anarchist terrorist demolition.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      To criticise NIST’s model as not describing the exact minutiae of the collapse of WTC7 is indicative of a fundamental misunderstanding of what models are for: they assist curiosity.

                      Actually, engineering modelling (aka simulation) is used to determine how engineering structures will perform under different loading, stress and event scenarios.

                      It is used to help determine many things from ‘buildability’, normal engineering performance, materials cost reduction and of course, evaluation of the design in catastrophic failure.

                      “Assisting curiosity” is a quaint idea though.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      Yes, you are not an expert on thermite, nor iron rich spheres. That being so, see point 1 on the number of engineers who would have to be bribed forever to keep them quiet and incurious.

                      No, actually, yawny yawn yawn, believe whatever you like and say a prayer for poor old Schiller and the dummheit.

                    • Stuart Munro

                      I think you underestimate the effect of the media consensus at the time – it was about two years before any media could look critically at anything the Bush administration did.

                      Whether by chance or by design Bush had the perfect situation to launch his middle eastern adventures, which at least in terms of the Iraq invasion seem not to have been justified by the events of 9/11.

                      No, I’m not an expert on thermite microspheres, but I could probably determine their presence or absence. This was an important historical event as well as a crime scene, I’d expect it to have been explored thoroughly – but the NIST report does not give that impression. Nor am I alone in saying so.

                      The bribery thing is perhaps not as clear as black and white. After a time a report tends to be accepted. You seem to claim some kind of academic mantle but your acceptance of it is based on its authority, not its content. You haven’t checked the math, and I presume no-one has bribed you. Engineers are busy, and 9/11 truth fixations are probably not career enhancing.

                      But something is anomalous about it being the only highrise to have collapsed due to fire. People will continue to look for evidence – and the chance that Bush manufactured this event as blithely as he manufactured Iraq’s weapons of mass destruction makes the search somewhat consequential.

          • North 2.1.1.2.2

            Yeah I always figured that in the absence of a provenance in National Party circles in his youth that was always a bunch of Crosby Textor shit, like the salary donated to charity. No provenance, no proof. Part of the package the country was sold when Michelle Boag and The Roundtable imported him.

            Yeah, he was so into politics that he can’t remember what he was thinking in ’81. Nothing apparently.

            • Leftie 2.1.1.2.2.1

              +1 North. Yes, you are onto it. It’s surprising how people who should know better (i.e CV) still have their eyes closed to the spin.

  3. b waghorn 3

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=11713057

    Looks like we’re about to find out if mccullys corruption bares fruit.

    • Colonial Viper 4.1

      Try supporting the Left in general lol

      • marty mars 4.1.1

        What do you mean? You are not left and in fact you act like you spit on the left from your exhalted position of judgment.

        • Colonial Viper 4.1.1.1

          How are you enjoying Left Wing support of the Kermadec Ocean Sanctuary.

          That’s what I mean.

          • marty mars 4.1.1.1.1

            Good point – it’s good pāhekā get to nut out their side. Middle class conservation and indigenous rights have pretty much always been in conflict and with the effects of climate change being felt AND the denial of government to do actual meaningful things many people of the left will be faced with stark and uncomfortable choices and decisions. As a Māori activist I also feel the toughness of those choices and I’m her to say that are FALSE. The dicotomy is not true both can be protected but it will take a change of attitude. The one that needs to change is that indigenous rights are expendable – they arent.

    • Yeah I give the guy ups for giving it a go – good lesson about g-translate. And a lesson about seeking help real help if you want to get it right.

      • vto 4.2.1

        marty mars, that this guy made an effort like this must be encouraging for the future don’t you think? Combine this with the generation coming through now who have been raised with far more te reo and te ao maori and the older bigotries must be beginning to disappear.

        • marty mars 4.2.1.1

          Yes it is encouraging. I hope people reach out and offer the guy a course. Imagine him coming back next election being fluent or much better than his current level.

    • Gangnam Style 4.3

      Agree BM, fuck the media vilifying this guy, big ups & a ‘Kia Ora’ from me.

    • You_Fool 4.4

      Maybe this might be true if he actually tried. Getting “some Maori woman” in the office to translate his bio is not much of a try, and the fact it appears that he doesn’t even know this women or what she does speaks even more volumes of his mindset and level of commitment to the betterment of society.

  4. Nic the NZer 5

    Bill mitchell on Basic Income guarantees.

    http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=34448

  5. Colonial Viper 6

    UK, Danish military admit to air striking Syrian Government Army

    The US, Brits and the Danes have admitted their involvement in a prolonged US airstrike which killed 62 Syrian Army soldiers, wounded over 100 and destroyed Syrian army equipment and installations.

    The airstrike hit a Syrian Government forward operating base which had been besieged on all sides by ISIS/ISIL for the last 2 years.

    Immediately after the western airstrike the militants launched an attack and overran the Syrian Government base, leading to accusations that the US had in this case acted as the ISIL airforce.

    Russia immediately called for an emergency meeting of the UN Security Council; the US said that such a meeting was unnecessary and that it was a “stunt” by Russia.

    https://www.rt.com/uk/359856-uk-hit-syria-troops/

      • Colonial Viper 6.1.1

        IMO there is no way US target intel could have mistaken a long held Syrian Govt base beseiged on all sides by ISIS for years, for an ISIS position.

        • One Anonymous Bloke 6.1.1.1

          SNAFU. Friendly fire is a thing.

          Does the rt report mention that the bombing ceased as soon as the Russians updates the “intel”.

          Or did you leave that part out?

          Do you know anyone personally who has the level of prescience and control you regularly ascribe to the US military?

          • Colonial Viper 6.1.1.1.1

            Yes, after 4 attack runs over 20 minutes, the Western attack stopped. The position was then immediately overrun by an ISIS/ISIL offensive.

            Do you know anyone personally who has the level of prescience and control you regularly ascribe to the US military?

            Fire control is a basic element of military operations.

            These attacks are monitored by NATO and the US in real time by satellite. It wasn’t some squad or platoon which was hit as a target of opportunity and then later found out to be friendly.

            It was a long standing forward base.

            In addition, it appears that the target would also have been reviewed and cleared by Australians, Danes and Brits.

            IMO the Pentagon has wanted from day one the ceasefire Kerry signed with Lavrov a few weeks ago to fail.

            • One Anonymous Bloke 6.1.1.1.1.1

              🙄

              “Fire control”

              Which works 100% of the time, eh. In my opinion, your opinion of the Pentagon is informed by little but Russian “news” reports.

              • Colonial Viper

                RAF reaper drones were used in the attack. These drones have extremely high tech, high resolution sensors used for correctly identifying targets.

                A Syrian Govt base isn’t a rag tag bunch of guys with AK47s on a goat track.

                • McFlock

                  Nor is daesh.

                  I doubt you could tell the difference between the sides, even with a drone as good as you think they are in optimal viewing conditions.

                  • Colonial Viper

                    It’s a fucking static base McFlock that the Syrian Government had been defending from for fucking years; the Americans have also hit Syrian forces in this same immediate area with airstrikes prior to 2016.

                    • McFlock

                      It’s a frontline target. Get the camera angle off by a degree when you estimate its position, it’s fucked. If nobody tells the yanks that it’s friendly, it’s fucked. If it’s misidentified as enemy rather than dodgy third party with a common enemy, it’s fucked. If the yanks fail to pass on to the controllers that it’s friendly, it’s fucked. If the controllers fuck up the fire mission or plug the wrong numbers into the gps, it’s fucked.

                      The don’t get targeting data from the intrinsic intelligence of the universe.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Full of excuses.

                      Time for the US to open up to a full investigation of the incident.

                      Meanwhile, the US aircover for ISIS has meant that ISIS has now gained a critical firing position over a key Syrian Govt airbase.

                    • McFlock

                      I’m sorry that the real world isn’t as perfect as you are.

                      If you reckon you can do better, you’re a fool.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Listen up dickhead, I’m not a forward air controller or an air mission planner.

                      In fact, let’s see the US present to the UN Security Council their story of what really happened. Instead of avoiding it. Or minimising it.

                    • McFlock

                      Oh, so you’re a theatre critic or a eunuch: you know what needs to be done, you can tell people where they went wrong, you know when you’ve seen it done badly, but you can’t do it yourself.

                      You demand the US “open up to a full investigation” of how they bombed troops that were incredibly close to the guys you’re happy for them to bomb (close enough to be overwhelmed “immediately” afterwards), and yet your total response to comments about the Syrians and/or Russians bombing a routine aid convoy with the appropriate permissions and notifications is zero.

                      We don’t need to see up your kilt to know which side you dress to, do we…

                    • He hasn’t said anything about it, but to be fair, the various western democracies involved in the attack on Syrian government forces killed military personnel of a murderous dicatorship, while the authoritarian nationalist regime involved in the attack on an aid convoy killed humanitarian aid workers. Obviously a person is going to rate one of those incidents as much worse than the other, and CV has done his rating…

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Don’t propagandise about Assad’s “murderous regime” when the West is drowning in culpability for the destruction of the Syrian state.

                      The West greenlit and supported the Turkish/Saudi/Qatari fuelled+funded war in Syria which has killed 400,000 to 500,000 Syrians now.

                      Various estimates has the US supplying roughly US$1B of aid to anti-Assad islamist fighters per year, over the last 4 years.

                    • McFlock

                      While the russians and syrians just bomb hospitals and relief convoys. Got that.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      let’s see what happens after Nov 8.

                    • Don’t propagandise about Assad’s “murderous regime” when the West is drowning in culpability for the destruction of the Syrian state.

                      The basis for that “stability” you’re so keen on in Syria was the efficient and ruthless torture and murder of the Assad regime’s opponents and anyone associated with them. For my money, that warrants the term “murderous dictatorship.” Your imaginings of how the uprising against that murderous dictatorship was somehow a plot by Western governments, on the other hand, doesn’t warrant some bullshit exercise in false equivalence.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Psycho Milt, I don’t particularly give a flying fuck if in fact Assad was disappearing hundreds of protestors into his secret prison system.

                      The US/Saudi/Turkey/Qatar used that – and their own agent provocateurs – to provide a pretext to fuel an illegal, geopolitically motivated war of regime change via Jihadist proxies. A war which has killed 400,000 to 500,000 Syrians, displaced several million more, and left an entire country on the verge of imploding just like the other Clinton pet project, Libya.

                      That’s the real fucking crime here.

                      Maybe someone even as morally blind as you can finally figure out where the truly “murderous regimes” lie in this picture.

                    • That’s the real fucking crime here.

                      Imaginary crimes you’ve convinced yourself of aren’t the “real” crime when compared to actual real crimes. And I don’t need lectures on morality from someone who thinks a friendly fire incident against military personnel is a duplicitous attack that warrants a lengthy diatribe while a friendly fire incident against an aid convoy isn’t worth a mention.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      So its not a real crime that the US and NATO have allowed NATO member Turkey to fund, restock, regroup and rearm head chopping Islamist fighters across Turkish borders for the last four plus years?

                      Thats a real crime which has caused tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of Syrian deaths.

                      And no mate, despite your delusions, its very real, up to and including the ISIS oil tankers crossing the Turkish border, inconvenient as these facts may be to your stupidly misplaced outrage.

                    • You really have developed false equivalence to a kind of art form.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      http://www.reuters.com/article/us-mideast-crisis-syria-idUSKCN11Q1NR

                      UN rows back from calling attack on aid convoy as being due to an airstrike, Russia/Syria deny involvement of air forces, say that attack damage to convoy not consistent with blast damage and cratering of an airstrike.

                      However it seems that some people still remain too quick to swallow the over-simplified anti-Assad, anti-Russian feed of the corporate MSM

            • McFlock 6.1.1.1.1.2

              A base that was right on the front line, close enough to immediately fall to daesh.

              You can’t have it both ways. Either it was close enough to be taken immediately, or it was far enough away to be clearly not daesh.

              • Colonial Viper

                Huh? It was a long standing forward base which was overrun by ISIS/ISIL straight after the US destroyed its fighting capability.

                • McFlock

                  Indeed. Which means daesh must have been fucking close, no?

                  • Colonial Viper

                    Yes probably within 5km. Outside of machine gun/sniper range but well inside mortar range.

                    • McFlock

                      Well within. Closer than Syrian reinforcements.

                      Could you tell the difference? So you rely on the guys on the ground communicating their position to you. When that has to happen through three or more seperate command structures, mistakes will be made.

        • Stuart Munro 6.1.1.2

          US friendly fire casualties are so high that the screwup is quite likely.
          http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/war_stories/2002/04/generals_apathy.html

          Estimates put US friendly fire at between 25 and 40% of their casualties. The Brits, who are our usual model, managed closer to 3% in the Falklands.

          Good outfit to stay away from in combat – though it’s often air-ground rather than ground – ground.

          • McFlock 6.1.1.2.1

            the old joke from WW2 was “When the English fly over, the Germans hit the ground. When the Germans fly over, the English and Americans hit the ground. When the Americans fly over, everyone hits the ground”.

    • Garibaldi 6.2

      Another blatant example of American stupidity and duplicity. Just watch all the anti Russian rhetoric drown out what has actually happened.

  6. Richard Rawshark 7

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/84436652/immigration-new-zealand-tells-danish-woman-in-nelson-silke-larsen-she-must-go

    If your not wealthy, chinese and donating millions to National you can fuck off, we don’t care you created a wifi network and are a extremely highly university skilled IT person who made the area connected which helps business, in fact everyone, we don’t count that sort of thing here.

    Donations lady and if you havn’t got one for us you can fuck off..eh?

    This fucking government is FUBAR.

    • framu 7.1

      “Larsen originally came to New Zealand on a long term business visa with plans for a personal development business which did not work out. Instead, she got involved with community projects, including helping to get internet access for rural areas.
      Larsen said the problem was although she had a degree [a PhD in telecommunications], she was not actively using that degree to earn more than $45,000 which meant she did not qualify as a skilled immigrant. ”

      reporting on immigration issues is routinely utter shit. This likely has very little to do with MPs and much more to do with a failure to meet policy or a failure to carry out required steps under the visa category

      in short – never believe a single article about immigration.

  7. Richard Rawshark 8

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11713072

    This will be up soon everywhere, for the fact probably that Hekia is leaving for a study of privatisation in the us under the disguise of education research..

    We gonna have to pay for our kids educations soon..and on the minimum wage..

    Is it time to get the AR-15 out yet, I need protection from my government..one thing the US got right maybe, just.., gun laws. I got to protect myself and kids from these psychopaths surely.

    Global funding eh, so do we put our kids up for something, is that like crowd funding? Like a photo on the internet.., a stunning pic of your kid and see how much you get for it?

  8. Richard Rawshark 9

    It’s getting bad in NZ when old hippies are getting so pissed off with the actions of the government and what this once caring land has become, that he actually experiences emotions of anger.

    The dude is not impressed.

  9. greywarshark 10

    Declining NZ – 1st world to 5th? Stop the rot! Stop the rort!
    3 Fish stocks unknown – information faulty.
    MPI making deals to try and get some precise information thru observers, upsetting level playing field.
    30% of catch may be thrown back – probably dead or maimed – as it is presently uneconomic to harvest.
    Quota system not working for the health of sea harvest – but no 💡 to introduce newer appropriate and necessary legislation.
    4 People in severe pain and left unable to work and earn after having metal-on-metal hip replacements. World recall by Johnson and Johnson (a trusted company and brand) after metalosis from the two metals cobalt and something else (my ignorance would be similar to those of the recipients who would rely on the integrity of supply
    company and their specialists).

    Specialists were advised about recall but government does not make it mandatory for them to advise their clients. 500 of these hip-ops supplied to NZ, about 400 used and about 25 applying to sue for their rightful share of payout from Johnson and Johnson to help with their disablement and suffering, now and almost certainly, in future. ACC rules allow suing for punitive and exemplary damages but still the decision of the Courts is needed. Don’t know why. Again ignorance would be widespread amongst all who haven’t training in this particular field of sorrows. Believed that many people still not informed about having a toxic implant inside them. E&OE

  10. Muttonbird 11

    Would this be the same union power Rodney Hide and Dirty Politics David Farrar said is dead?

    http://www.newshub.co.nz/politics/teachers-vote-overwhelmingly-against-global-funding-2016092010

    Hide had a grizzle piece in The Horrid on Sunday about how his holiday as a wee boy was ruined because of Cook Straight ferry workers’ industrial action and presumably sees all worker representation evil as a result.

    Under the current government policy of floating bizarre and discredited ideas for industry and public consumption before sniffing the wind and canning said idea, unions have never had it better.

    • Puckish Rogue 11.1

      Well of course the unions would reject anything the National government said, I don’t think anyone would surprised about the teachers unions putting ideology above kids best interests

      • Richard Rawshark 11.1.1

        Could say that about National! PR. Exactly that.

        • Puckish Rogue 11.1.1.1

          Yup

          • Pasupial 11.1.1.1.1

            What PR? Do you actually agree that Key’s Nat government are; “putting ideology above kids best interests”? Or did you just not understand RR’s comment?

            Either way does not convince me to pay heed to anything you have to say on the topic of education.

      • TonyP 11.1.2

        You got it round the wrong way. We’re putting childrens best interests before National Party ideology. Just remember that teachers working conditions are children’s learning conditions. Make it too hard for teachers to do their job and the children are the ones that suffer.

        • Muttonbird 11.1.2.1

          Indeed, and 99% of teachers agreed this is the case.

          There could hardly be a more convincing ‘get stuffed’ to Hekia Parata.

          I sometimes wonder if she has forgotten where she came from.

        • Puckish Rogue 11.1.2.2

          The unions are doing whats best for their members as they’ve always done, not whats best for the kids

          • Muttonbird 11.1.2.2.1

            You have a peculiar Pink Floyd view of the world no doubt fashioned from where you get your opinions. That somehow NZ teachers are out to destroy kids.

            • Puckish Rogue 11.1.2.2.1.1

              Destroy kids no, put teachers interests ahead of kids interests, yes

              • Muttonbird

                Still no evidence of that provided by you. 99% against global funding isn’t some sort of anomaly. There could not be a greater mandate rejecting Parata’s, the current government’s, and your opinion unless it were 100%.

                As You_fool describes below, how can the entire teaching profession be wrong, while one proven incompetent minister who never taught a classroom in her life, and uses google for education policy, be right?

                • Puckish Rogue

                  Oh please, NCEA was the end of the world, Tomorrows Schools was the end of the world, I’m guessing it was the end of the world when NZ changed to metric and the dollar

                  The teaching unions default position when it comes to National or change is the same, against it (whatever it is)

                  • Muttonbird

                    NZ has slid in international rankings with all these changes. Teachers I guess want to arrest a further slide. You be the judge – it’s what you like to do.

                  • Stuart Munro

                    Novapay PR – and every other lamebrained educational disaster the Gnats have come up with – stupid wasteful ideas that have not advanced education. The Gnats have long since burned any shreds of credibility they could have had with teachers and thus the unions, as democratic organisations, are obliged to oppose their every ill-conceived whim.

                  • DoublePlusGood

                    NCEA and Tomorrow’s Schools were both incompetent mismanagement of the education system, and so is this. It was correctly rejected by the teacher’s union.

            • srylands 11.1.2.2.1.2

              No they are not trying to destroy kids. But the interests of the kids and the teachers most certainly do not coincide.

              • Muttonbird

                Right. And I suppose Hekia Parata’s interests and the kids’ are one and the same?

              • Red Hand

                Why not ? They are all self-optimising individuals in a free market. Just teach the “kids” how to think rationally and get the perfect information “they need” and all’s sweet. And grades achievement skills too, for “teacher’s ” sake.

            • North 11.1.2.2.1.3

              And unions having in their membership real human beings who have kids prefer to proceed without thought for their children. Puleez !

          • TonyP 11.1.2.2.2

            How is a funding regime that will see schools having to balance numbers of teachers and support staff against ever increasing operational costs thus seeing class sizes increase and support staff numbers dropping in the children’s best interests.

      • Muttonbird 11.1.3

        What evidence do you have that National’s ideological experimentation is in childrens’ best interests? Because they say it is? There doesn’t seem to be any grounding in research of successful practice in their adoption of failed overseas trials.

        The current government’s strategy toward public service is to throw any old idea at it in the hope it will stick. Where education is concerned however it’s not a case of it being broken, because the teaching and the curriculum is fine, it’s the neoliberal policy of keeping the disenfranchised crushed which makes home life in certain communities very hard for kids to study in.

        No, your response here is a parroting of noted anti-worker collective shills like Slater, Hooton, Farrar, and Hide. It would be good if you could have a thought of your own once in a while.

      • You_Fool 11.1.4

        It always surprises me that we train up people to teach our kids, ensuring that they have the best skills, knowledge and techniques to teach the next generation and then routinely ignore them on how best to actually do the job of teaching.

        • In Vino 11.1.4.1

          Yes… And may I point out to Poxish Rogue that the PPTA did NOT oppose NCEA, despite the reservations of many members. By and large PPTA has supported NCEA. PPTA does not automatically oppose every proposed change.
          Poxish Rogue demonstrates an abysmal ignorance of what motivates good teachers. Engaging with their students and caring about them is the first element. And the vast majority of those good teachers belong to and support the PPTA, just to forestall the crap argument that the union is only there to protect incompetent teachers. Good teachers want to protect their students from pernicious, ideologically-based Government policies that have shown no benefits overseas, and will fight tooth and nail to do so.

      • Draco T Bastard 11.1.5

        It’s National and its support puppets that are putting ideology above the well-being of our children and society in general.

  11. Richard Rawshark 12

    Just read an article, drone with arms could lift toddler..

    imaginings of dirty old pedies in raincoats lining up at hobby shops comes to mind.

    I mean why do they print articles like that? Some sick Journo having a fantasy moment?

    I know you know what..some jobsworth is going to have to make a law/bylaw now, stating all drones have to have a , ” CAUTION do not lift toddlers or young children, dogs cats or your grandma with this device” warning sticker placed on them.

    • vto 12.1

      the issue is not that.

      the issue is when are drones going to be able to lift adults….. and become our own personal flying devices …. coming soon to a store near you …

  12. greywarshark 13

    Interesting series on Stuff Nation. They put out an invitation for people to contribute. Why not have a go and say how yiu find NZ its highs and lows.
    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/84158436/New-Zealand-is-no-paradise-it-is-brutal

    This is part of Part One of Five by Katherine Dolan who has left NZ looking for something better.

    It would be good if people could see it as from a female who feels and sees it both as a female,and a NZr who assesses that we all should expect better. And also not be like some of the commenters who look at themselves, their own family and locale which they find satisfactory, and who then reject it as being untrue. There is an opportunity to see beyond our own little personal understandings to the truth of the bigger picture.

    Part one of New Zealand is no paradise: Sex, Drugs and Denial, a five-part series about growing up hating New Zealand by Katherine Dolan, written for Stuff Nation.
    And after being homeless in Canada, swaddled in black in Saudi Arabia and living hand to mouth in the Balkans, why do I still consider my New Zealand a uniquely lonely and uncomfortable place?

    I say “my New Zealand” because the place I grew up perhaps no longer exists. I hope it doesn’t, because rural New Zealand in the 1980s and ’90s was a puritanical, misogynist, authoritarian, anti-intellectual, alcohol-dependent society that specialised in casual brutality.
    I grew up in a New Zealand that worshipped the Spartan virtues: stoicism, masculinity, physical strength, group cohesion, terseness.

  13. Muttonbird 14

    Pony-tail guy wields the TPP as a threat to the US in his most recent speak/slur on the world stage.

    My question is if he’s that afraid of Chinese influence in the region, why doesn’t he address the massive influence of cheap, laundered, and ill-gotten Chinese money flooding into the New Zealand residential property market?

    Yet again, dropped-soap guy says one thing yet does another and fails to recognise he doesn’t stand for the people of the Asia Pacific region at all.

    http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/political/313728/john-key-warns-us-of-risks-in-failing-to-ratify-tpp

    • Garibaldi 14.1

      It would be interesting to know if there has been more to this trip he is on than batting for his former enemy and parading around the UN …. maybe Bilderberg?

      • Muttonbird 14.1.1

        Not sure on that.

        What I do know is the international community don’t take him seriously. Obama is on record wondering why Australia listens to him. Clark is tainted in UN circles because of her association with Key and his anti-worker government.

        • alwyn 14.1.1.1

          “What I do know is the international community don’t take him seriously”
          Really? Do you have anything other than your overactive imagination to justify this, and the comments that follow this, statement?
          Helen Clark certainly seemed very grateful for Key’s supporting he candidacy on TV last night? Is there something you know that she doesn’t?
          Obama certainly didn’t to seem to hold the views you subscribe to when he was overheard talking to the Australian PM did he?

          • Muttonbird 14.1.1.1.1

            Obama did hold the views I subscribe to. He questioned Turnbull on wether he listened to the New Zealanders, and followed by saying Key was a great guy to play golf with. Damned by faint praise on the second part, for sure.

            John Key fluffers can’t read between the lines.

          • North 14.1.1.1.2

            Fair enough that you query there Alwyn but what we’ve got here is a ‘machine’. Dear Helen, whom (for my sins) I’d re-vote for at the drop of a hat…..reasons later…..is part of that ‘machine’. “Hate and damn you today, hold you close and kiss you tomorrow.” There’s nothing as mind-altering as power/the prospect of it.

            To wit, Marigold Barry when asked why she was standing in North Shore, was it?…… produced the howler that she she had “a great deal to offer……” Hmm, Hmm…..Ahem.

    • Muttonbird 15.1

      Looks like shit.

      Next.

      • The Chairman 15.1.1

        I like it.

        It looks modern. It’s practical, cost efficient and environmentally friendly.

        • Muttonbird 15.1.1.1

          What is wrong with an actual train? Countless developed and developing countries use them and have used them for many decades since the beginning of the industrial revolution. They are a very efficient form of transport, local, public, and otherwise.

          That New Zealand has not kept up with this technology is our own fault and one which must be paid for now.

          • The Chairman 15.1.1.1.1

            “What is wrong with an actual train?”

            This can compliment the rail network where it is more cost effective and practical to do so.

            • Sabine 15.1.1.1.1.1

              especially if you import some steel from china that comes with a ‘good quality’ certification. Yeah, cheap must be good and practical.

              in saying that, Wuppertal has had a sky gondola since the beginning of the last century, mainly due to the roads being so small that a tram or bus would not pass. its quite awesome fun taking a trip over the Wupper.

              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wuppertal_Suspension_Railway

              • The Chairman

                It’s cost effective because of its simplistic design and ease to install.

                • Draco T Bastard

                  Interestingly enough, I think you’ll find that it’s harder to install than a good underground. People simply won’t want them mucking up their skyline.

                  • The Chairman

                    The rate burden that comes with going underground would soon entice them to change their mind.

                    • Draco T Bastard

                      Possibly or they’ll just stop everything.

                      NZers always seem to choose the short-term cheap, worst option and long term most expensive option. It doesn’t help when the politicians keep telling us we can have things ever cheaper.

        • BM 15.1.1.2

          Good idea, Looks a hell of a lot cheaper than rail.

          • Muttonbird 15.1.1.2.1

            Love to see the data on what it can handle peak time.

            • mauī 15.1.1.2.1.1

              It can pickup 8 people at a time, about as much use as building a mini van only lane on the motorway. Stupid.

              • The Chairman

                32,000 people into the CBD per hour, or 64,000 people per morning peak with all seated or 120,000 people with standees.

                http://www.skycabs.co.nz/documents/AucklandStrategyForeword.pdf

                • maui

                  So 4,000+ sky cabs reaching the cbd every hour. Sorry I can’t see it. Then there’s the issue of keeping something with so many moving parts running freely. Any human error or emergency in one cab holds up the whole system and everyone is left dangling in the air. Potential nightmare scenarios are high.

                  • The Chairman

                    Due to their simplistic design they are low maintenance.

                    Nonetheless, one would assume they would have procedures in place in the event of a breakdown. For example, units would have an auxiliary motor or could be pushed or towed by another unit.

                    • Draco T Bastard

                      Due to their simplistic design they are low maintenance.

                      LOL

                      Your not actually buying that BS are you?

                      Or, to put it another way:
                      Due to them being in the open, salt saturated air of Auckland, they’ll be bloody high maintenance.

                    • The Chairman

                      Simplistic designs tend to be more low maintenance as there is generally less to go wrong.

                      The lifespan and overall maintenance requirements of the network itself will largely come down to the construction materials used. One would expect they will be aware of the elements, thus requirements.

          • alwyn 15.1.1.2.2

            It would probably be like the monorail that used to run in Sydney.
            They finally scrapped it in 2013, from memory.
            It was estimated to be about 40% more expensive than even light rail would have been. I think the idea that it would be “cheaper than rail” would prove to be someone’s wet dream.
            Of course the cost estimate would probably be like the one some of the Wellington Regional Council candidates have. They just claim that we could have light rail at half the cost determined in an evaluation of the idea. Bloody idiots the lot of them.

            • BM 15.1.1.2.2.1

              No train expert here, but the big advantage to me is that you wouldn’t have to construct a rail corridor through Auckland, this could be tacked onto the side of existing roads or run up the middle.

          • The Chairman 15.1.1.2.3

            It’s got great potential.

  14. The Chairman 16

    New Zealanders paid $1.3 billion dollars more in council rates in 2015 than in 2009.

    Since 2009, increases at a national level have outstripped both population growth and inflation.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/84015499/local-government-rates-are-up-government-funding-is-down

  15. The Chairman 17

    I like it.

  16. logie97 18

    Kermadecs and the Foreshore.
    Is this just another instance of Key not having any knowledge of history. His tendency of governing in the now reflects his poor judgement. His allowing Smith to be anywhere near the Kermadecs issue in the first place would seem to bear this out. The sidelining of Smith from the Kermadec issue should not come as a surprise to many – remember the Foreshore issue and the disgraceful grandstanding of Smith and Peter Dunne in Nelson.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/treaty-of-waitangi/news/article.cfm?c_id=350&objectid=3515159

    It would also be interesting to know what Key’s own utterances on the Foreshore issue were back then – … he probably “couldn’t quite remember”.

    • Macro 18.1

      Wow! thanks for the link – that is definitely well worth remembering, and certainly pertinent to the current clusterfuck. Smith, needs to be as far away from this as possible.

  17. Tarquin 19

    I’m told Maori had no idea the Kermadecs existed before Cook and co turned up. Is this right?

    • Muttonbird 19.1

      Possibly, but would they have found had Cook and co not taken their rights away?

    • inscriber 19.2

      No it has a well documented history of Polynesian settlement or use. But it was abandoned hundreds of years before European arrival. So claims of customary use are nonsense.

      • One Anonymous Bloke 19.2.1

        Apart from the custom of seafarers to stop there to restock etc.

        • inscriber 19.2.1.1

          Well the archeology I’m aware of is that there is no evidence of regular journeys, that raoul was settled for a period by eastern Polynesians (not Maori) but it was abandoned in the 15th century. Apart from a small number of flakes of obsidian there’s no evidence of any kind of ongoing transit between nz and the kermadecs.

          • One Anonymous Bloke 19.2.1.1.1

            Perhaps you can invent an alternative scenario. Aliens visited tangata whenua, perhaps…

            Alien: “What can we do for you?”
            Tangata Whenua: “Can you put these flakes on Raoul Island for us? “

      • Sacha 19.2.2

        Irrelevant. This is about Treaty rights, not customary ones. You’re getting mixed up with the foreshore law.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 19.3

      As discussed yesterday, they left artefacts there, so no, your source is feeding you false information. Who is it, the Prime Minister?

      • Tarquin 19.3.1

        Polynesian people were there. I’m told they weren’t Maori. The Prime Minister is John Key – you should get out more, try Venezuela it would suit your thinking or lack there of.

        • One Anonymous Bloke 19.3.1.1

          He tells too many lies. That’s why I wondered if he’s the one spoon-feeding you.

          Here’s RTM from the Kermadecs thread to set you straight:

          …archaeologists have found obsidian from Mayor Island in the Bay of Plenty on Raoull, the largest of the Kermadec Islands, alongside recognisably Maori artefacts…

          Now you know the facts make sure not to keep spreading the lies, there’s a dearie. You could even elect not to trust your source on other matters if you were smart.

    • adam 19.4

      Oh do float off Tarquin.

      You race batting pillock.

      Oh wait, what new from national supporters who write on the standard…

      National party supporters default; Racist, sexist, and smug Tory scum – I’m sure I missed somthing. 😉

      • In Vino 19.4.1

        Fraudulent through wilful ignorance and prejudice. I’m sure I have also forgotten something.

  18. joe90 20

    #trump,I searched, for a Trump fan in Santander Spain,nobody,none, only POKEMONES. ,You are not welcome here either pic.twitter.com/Jufmh4MHae— Vicente Fox Quesada (@VicenteFoxQue) September 18, 2016

    #trump,I searched, for a Trump fan on the 4 train, nobody,none, only POKEMONES. ,You are not welcome here either pic.twitter.com/a49euMePsC— Daniel José Older (@djolder) September 19, 2016

    #trump, i searched for a trump fan in Paris, France, nobody, none, only POKEMONES, You are not welcome here either pic.twitter.com/9UcYvCcZwe— el_teorema.txt (@teoremadelmeme) September 19, 2016

    #only POKEMONES

  19. Puckish Rogue 21

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com.au/2016/09/15/wellington-the-little-city-that-could-and-did/?ncid=tweetlnkauhpmg00000001

    “If you were to pinpoint a person and a moment in time for Wellington’s transformation, it would probably be Peter Jackson and the late 1990s.”

    Hes a good man Sir Peter

    • Gangnam Style 21.1

      Now there’s some expert trolling, behold! Peter Jackson has certainly done all right for himself, well done him, shame he had to shaft a bunch of NZ workers to get there, & a bit disappointing he hasn’t made a decent movie in over a decade (but hey, check out that new frame rate!).

      • save nz 21.1.1

        +1 Gangnam Style – yep we value those that help others as well as themselves in a decent society.

      • Puckish Rogue 21.1.2

        Ok so I disagree with you on the shafting of the workers, they were treated decently.

        On the decent movie…yeah fair enough

  20. save nz 22

    Apparently David Seymour thinks tax payers need to fund a ‘Ministry of Men’.

    How about a “Ministry of Vulnerable Men’? The Chief’s players, Tony Veitch and Nikolas Delegat can lodge complaint’s there about their appalling and unfair treatment from Women and the NZ political system. (sarc.)

    • Bob 22.1

      He does actually make some good points:
      “A Few Stats
      Where once women were clearly marginalised, men are now behind in most social statistics. University graduates: women 60/40. Imprisonment: men 94/6. Life expectancy: women 84/80 (non-Maori), 77/73 (Maori). Suicide rate: men 74/16. We could go on. The only significant stat running against women is income (Men 53/47)”

      • McFlock 22.1.1

        So women are better educated, imprisoned less, live longer, but still earn less? How does that work without omitting criteria that doesn’t suit your narrative?

        • Gangnam Style 22.1.1.1

          Seymour just trolling surely, MRAs prob closely linked to ACT I would imagine.

        • Bob 22.1.1.2

          What narrative? That David Seymour has a point?
          We have a Ministry for Women which seems to have two primary goals, gender pay equality, and reducing violence against Women. These are two very significant social ills that need addressing, but are they any more significant than our men growing up poorly educated with high imprisonment rates (I would suggest there is a link right there) and dying younger?

          • McFlock 22.1.1.2.1

            Well, the first step would be to see whether other socioeconomic or demographic factors have a greater correlation and causal relationship than “men”, and whether those factors are being independantly addressed by other responsible ministries.

            By just ignoring the historic and current power imbalance within society and leaping upon arbitrary gender distinctions, your narrative of “what about teh menz” is shallow, venal, self-absorbed and stupid. If a targeted effort is needed, it should target the division that causes the power imbalance that causes the negative outcomes, which does not necessarily equate to the most obvious example of division within those outcomes.

            Search for the confounding variable, not the one that matches your preconceptions.

            • Bob 22.1.1.2.1.1

              See response to Sabine below. The gender links regarding education have already been identified, perhaps the idea of a ‘Ministry for Men’ doesn’t fit your preconceptions. Or perhaps it is just because of who raised the issue…

              • McFlock

                You’re welcome to demonstrate the systemic issues that make your whinge du jour a male issue rather than a cultural or socioeconomic issue. Because domestic violence and income disparities are direct results of historic treatment and social relegation of women. But men were always the main populators of prison, for example, even when women were little more than property. Prison isn’t a male problem it’s a social problem . Addressing it as a male problem restricts the list of observable solutions.

        • Sabine 22.1.1.3

          Damn, if those pesky women would just go back to the three K’s. Kinder, Kirche, Kueche.

          Surely all would be good for the poor misunderstood man that fail in all other categories other then wages. Despite being lesser educated, more often imprisoned and live shorter yet they still earn more money.

          Ministry of vulnerable men indeed. 🙂

          • Puckish Rogue 22.1.1.3.1

            For what its worth my wife earns more then I do but its my hope that one day I can finally achieve my dream of become a kept man, living off my wifes earnings

            Sadly though its yet to happen 🙂

            • Sabine 22.1.1.3.1.1

              average Puckish Rogue, on average women earn less then man. And i really hope that we don’t have to re-hash this truth.

              My partner also hopes he could be a kept man, however i have been telling him for years that i started working at an earlier age (cause girls will have husbands and need no stinkn higher education 🙂 ) as he did cause he got that higher education thingy, so if anyone is to be kept it would be me. But alas, i don’t really function well when kept and having to ask for stuff. So i go to work every day 🙂 and count my pennies.

              • adam

                Come on Sabine, PR hates women – of course he going to rehash it.

              • Puckish Rogue

                Interestingly enough even though my wife makes more then me (its not a great deal more to be completely honest) I pretty much the financial decisions in our household because, in her words, its “I trust you” and when it comes to decisions about our retirement its “I’m not interested in that, I’ll leave it up to you”

        • vto 22.1.1.4

          Men definitely get the raw end of the stick as the stats show

          Are we allowed to say such yet? Or we not that advanced to recognise these things ……

          prison
          early death
          low education
          suicide

          great aint it

          • Sabine 22.1.1.4.1

            prison? so that has got nothing to do with man offending at a higher rate?

            early death? maybe you want to complain to certain businesses that don’t implement safety for their workers, the forestry industry comes to mind for once.

            low education? Are you saying that boys in NZ are not going to the same schools as girls? Are you saying that schools in NZ are discriminating against boys? Or may it be that boys often don’t get the support they need from their families, where as girls know that if they don’t finish schools they will never ever be anything other the a min wage slave? (the boys in my partners family who have not finished school did so cause ‘school was boring’ and ‘ i am not learning anything’ and ‘i don’t need this i can be like my dad’).

            suicide: this is the one thing in NZ that always stumps me, it is such an issue and the country as a collective refuses to talk about it and do something about it. . (the mind does not understand)

            • vto 22.1.1.4.1.1

              Good for you Sabine, at least you are starting to ask the questions that need to be asked about the hard raw life so very many men get..

              Though I do worry that there is a lack of consistency when similar such questions are put about other sectors of our population, for example your question one and Maori and prison…. we know the question is not that simple is it ….

              at least the issues are getting out there though

              cos you know, I don’t want to die early just because I’m male, nor go to prison – but that is the reality for us

              • You’re not going to die early because you’re male, or go to prison because you’re male. Statistical differences at the population level tell us nothing about particular individuals, that’s why the whole “paid 12% less because you’re a woman” thing was a crock of shit. We don’t need a “sent to prison because you’re a man” crock of shit to even things out…

              • Sabine

                mate i have always asked the question.

                but frankly do not blame the success of the girls to the failure of the boys.

                or let me rephrase this, would the failure of your son be the result of your daughters success? or would you rather your daughter pretend to fail so your son could be successful?

                If and when women commit more crimes and are apprehended for it they will end up in prison.
                This has got nothing to do with Maori men being more likely to be arrested then white men – this has more to do with institutionalized racism, alive and very well in NZ as recent cases have shown again. btw. no girl forced that rich boy to beat a women unconscious, and no girl forced that judge to give that rich boy a slap with a very wet bus ticket.

                as for you dying early, eat well, drink in moderation, laugh a lot and you may live long, do not offend, don’t piss off popo and you will not go to prison.
                Again, this has got nothing to do with women.

                care to comment that the women despite it all still earn less then men? or is it that men should earn more cause men? 🙂

              • Colonial Viper

                prison? so that has got nothing to do with man offending at a higher rate?

                Ahhh, a classic victim blaming argument.

                😛

            • Bob 22.1.1.4.1.2

              “low education? Are you saying that boys in NZ are not going to the same schools as girls? Are you saying that schools in NZ are discriminating against boys?”
              It may have a link to the ratio’s of Female/Male teachers in our system,:
              “The dominant research perspective is that connected to issued of male identity formation – specifically how boys see themselves as learners. Much of the research suggests that issues of gender identity are the most significant area to understand and address in boys’ education issues. In this approach, consideration is given to how boys perceive themselves as learners in contemporary classrooms and how this translates into educational achievement.
              It also claimed in some research that aspects of education are ‘feminised’ and inherently biased towards the achievement of girls”
              http://www.ero.govt.nz/publications/boys-education-good-practice-in-secondary-schools/introduction/
              Perhaps the boys in your family were ‘bored’ and didn’t learn anything because the teaching methods being used were not conducive to their learning requirements.
              This could be the root cause of why male incarceration rates and suicide rates are so high also. If you don’t feel like you fit in…if only we had a Ministry that could be researching these links further.

              • vto

                A Ministry genuinely makes sense in light of these massive issues …

              • Sabine

                so who is stopping the men from educating boys? Who is stopping men from going into the teaching profession? Why not more boys only schools?

                as for the teaching methods, is that the fault of girls? Or is that the fault of governments? And the fact that maybe some kids are not made for long studies? you will find if you search here that I am one who advocates for proper apprenticeships as i fully understand that not every one is made for the academics.
                But is that the fault of girls?

                I can’t and won’t comment on the suicide rates, as i stated above, i can not understand why NZ is refusing to have an open and honest discussion about it. Maybe it has to do with that stupid bull shit about ‘harden up’, have a beer mate ‘she’ll be alright’ attitude that is so prevalent in this country.

                Maybe we should just have a Ministry for Vulnerable Humans.

                But non of this has anything to do with Girls, how they do in school, how old they live and how much less they get paid then their male counterparts in equal roles.

                • Colonial Viper

                  men don’t go into primary or early childhood education any more for obvs reasons.

                  • Gangnam Style

                    “men don’t go into primary or early childhood education any more for obvs reasons.” – Coz the work is too hard? Can get better pay laying gravel on roads? Funny how most principals are males innit?

                  • Sabine

                    what reasons?
                    and why obvious?

                    • BM

                      Thought that was fairly obvious, accusations of kiddy fiddling,

                    • Stuart Munro

                      Men fear career-ending accusations of paedophilia. It’s not a trivial concern.

                      Someone even made a movie about it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hunt_(2012_film)

                    • Sabine

                      just sad then, how a few fuckwits have fucked it up for the men and the teaching profession. No?

                      I still believe that Gangnam Style reasons have more to do with it, namely that they pay is too lowly for men to even apply.

                      But I can see how some men may fear these accusations so much that all of the men refuse to be teachers. Especially when one considers the girls and their knobbly knees that adult male teachers must be protected from.

                      http://www.newstalk.com/New-Zealand-school-girls-told-to-wear-longer-skirts-to-create-a-good-work-environment-for-male-staff

                      “This was reportedly to ‘keep our girls safe, stop boys from getting ideas and create a good work environment for male staff’.”

                      – cause we can’t trust men and boys to behave themselves appropriatly we must cover our girls to keep them safe. Yeah, right fucking Tui.

                    • BM

                      There’s also the issue of young girls using the “he touched me accusation” to get leverage over or get back at male teachers.

                      As demonstrated on this site on numerous occasions, the female is always truthful and honest and the man is always guilty.

                      Your career could be over just like that.

                    • Sabine

                      seriously BM there are how many Girls accusing teachers of having touched them? In NZ?

                      when you google Girls accusing teachers of molestation what comes up are cases of teachers – male and female – of having been accused and found guilty of molestation, or sexual misconduct.
                      https://www.google.co.nz/search?q=teachers+accused+of+sexual+molestation+in+NZ&oq=teachers+accused+of+sexual+molestation+in+NZ&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l5.6305j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

                      I still believe that the low pay is more of an issue

                      https://www.teachnz.govt.nz/teaching-in-new-zealand/salaries/

                      Primary teacher salaries
                      The current starting salary for a primary school teacher with a Bachelor’s teaching degree is $47,039.

                      Secondary teacher salaries
                      The current entry salary for a secondary school teacher who holds registration granted by The Education Council of Aotearoa New Zealand and a New Zealand Qualifications Framework (NZQF) Level 7 subject or specialist qualification (the qualification must have at least 72 credits at Level 7) and a recognised teaching qualification is $50,268.

                      so essentially there is not a lot of pay involved in teaching, despite a high level of qualification demanded.

                      Might it not just be that many blokes look at teaching and go nah, can’t be arsed, to hard and not enough pay.
                      but hey, i can see where ‘i might get accused of inapropriate behaviour’ seems like an nicer out instead of saying i am not paid enough to bother with the badly educated kids of others.

                    • BM

                      Yeah, the pay isn’t stellar ether, other reasons include.

                      !. low pay.
                      2, Mainly Woman environment
                      3,Accusations of kiddy fiddling
                      4.Seems to be very little career prospects.
                      5. Getting hit on by kids Mothers.
                      6,Looked on with suspicion by a good percentage of the public.

                      The only positive is the amount of holidays you get.

                    • Sabine

                      !. low pay. – Well maybe if men were to join the service pay would go up?

                      2, Mainly Woman environment – Maybe if men were to join the service it would be a mixed environment?

                      3,Accusations of kiddy fiddling – both men and women have been found guilty of the offense, so really that is just a cheap cop out, also cops, doctors, sales people, it people and all other sorts of people have been accused and found guilty of the offense. so maybe men should just stay at home and never leave the house without an appropriate chaperone? A mother, wife, or aunty would do. Only old women of course. Lest you get accused?

                      4.Seems to be very little career prospects. – principal? become Hekia Parata Minister of ‘Education’ at least you would be a Minister with teaching credentials?

                      5. Getting hit on by kids Mothers. – why no gay men have children in school?

                      6,Looked on with suspicion by a good percentage of the public. -you have a very low opinion of a. yourself, and b. the public

                      The only positive is the amount of holidays you get. – yei, upside.

                      t
                      but the reason there are no more men in teaching is men like yourself, as it is you who would taunt the male teacher with your bogus accusations, your bogus snide remarks and your bullshit suspicion.
                      But it lets you blame the women for not doing their job education your son or your future son should he fail in school. Cause while a man may have been better we can fully understand why no man would want that low pay, low career option, surrounded by women, low regards type o job.

                      i can see how that makes sense.

          • mpledger 22.1.1.4.2

            The biggest thing that would help men would be to restrict alcohol – alcohol is a contributing factor in crime, early death and suicide.

            • gsays 22.1.1.4.2.1

              Hi m pledger, I read recently, a few essays on suicide in aotearoa.
              Disconnection from community seemed to be a strong factor in suicide.
              That is not to deny the part alcohol may play.
              I agree with Sabine, the silence around this issue is not helping.

          • Gabby 22.1.1.4.3

            They’d be happier and live longer if they stayed at home and looked after their children.

      • Gabby 22.1.2

        Does Seemore Coq know what the incarceration rates were when fewer women got degrees? I’m betting it was similar to now.

  21. joe90 23

    The apple doesn’t fall far….

    Re-upping for Don Jr Twitter: He said his mom had "great boobs" when he toasted her at her wedding https://t.co/F6ik5S6tPE— Betsy Woodruff (@woodruffbets) September 20, 2016

    Also one time Don Jr got intv'd by a radio host who has said interracial sex is bad and slavery was good https://t.co/F6ik5ROSY6— Betsy Woodruff (@woodruffbets) September 20, 2016

  22. ianmac 24

    A man who had blown up bombs in New York, and shot multiple times at the police. He is wounded and then arrested.
    An African-American is shot dead for walking or driving and is unarmed.
    Anyone else see the blatant contradiction?

    • North 24.1

      Excellent comment Ianmac ! Whom amongst us can’t see the blatant contradiction ? “Black Lives” DON’T matter. In contrast to other rotten lives which DO matter. If only for the purposes of the show trial which follows.

  23. Colonial Viper 25

    NZ should sell all its best food producing companies to the Chinese, that’s the way forward for this country.

  24. gsays 26

    ahh.. i see.

    apparently its going to
    ‘ create substantial and identifiable benefit’.

    excellent, i can rest easy with paula bennett on the case.

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