Open mike 21/06/2021

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, June 21st, 2021 - 111 comments
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Step up to the mike …

111 comments on “Open mike 21/06/2021 ”

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    • Pat 1.1
      21 June 2021 at 8:20 am

      One Roof…AKA the marketing arm of the NZ economy

      • Incognito 1.1.1
        21 June 2021 at 8:28 am

        GDP was up 1.6% in Q2-2021, our economy is on FIRE!

        • Pat 1.1.1.1
          21 June 2021 at 8:35 am

          lol….very good

          • ghostwhowalksnz 1.1.1.1.1
            21 June 2021 at 10:14 am

            I heard a quick promo on the radio the otherday which Hosking was talking to Roberson about such figures. Hosking asked -what about Australia which is 'higher'.

            Robertson queried where he got his numbers from, but really should have a better answer which I can do now

            1. Iron Ore prices have jumped up dramatically in last 9 months, flows to GDP

            2.Iron Ore etc

            3. Tourism In normal times Australia a 'net tourism exporter' as it residents travel much more than us ( more competition means their airfares for equivalent routes are cheaper). Covid has meant the boost to domestic tourism is greater, but a few areas more affected than others. And of course international tourism is a bigger part of NZ economy , more like 4-5% nothing like the inflated number 20% the 'industry' claims…that would make foreign tourists a $40 bill input …laughable.

        • Herodotus 1.1.1.2
          21 June 2021 at 11:36 am

          We have shortages within the workforce and growth, then why are industries, some contributors here and the government doing all they can to suppress any wage growth ? The nurses battle just to name one.
          I wait to read that we need to keep interest rates down for those with debt.

          • Jenny how to get there 1.1.1.2.1
            21 June 2021 at 2:26 pm

            You are mistaking growth, as an increase on returns on investment, ie profits. A good thing. With an increase in wages, ie wage inflation. A bad thing.*

            *(mainly because it cuts into growth in profits. A very bad thing).

      • ghostwhowalksnz 1.1.2
        21 June 2021 at 10:32 am

        Yes. "One Roof' earlier this year was running opinion columns by person, who very little was said. A look at linkedin showed he was the Founder and former CEO of 'The Property Council', hardly a mere 'commentator'

        The Herald also seems to be running stories by staff who either joined them from 'Property Press' or are moonlighting/ contra deal

        I wonder if that too is sponcon ?

  2. Incognito 2
    21 June 2021 at 8:10 am

    Bugger! It’s going to be a long day today.

    • Rosemary McDonald 2.1
      21 June 2021 at 8:45 am

      Y'all have prepared the beds for the garlic of course? Homegrown is so much more effective at warding off the evil 'fluences.

      • mac1 2.1.1
        21 June 2021 at 9:03 am

        Already planted my Russian Red garlic!

        • Rosemary McDonald 2.1.1.1
          21 June 2021 at 9:10 am

          I'm ready…a mix of Russian Red and two other Kiwi garlic strains going into a 3m2 lovingly prepared bed. Up here, I guess I should have planted earlier…but I'm a bit of a stickler for the solstice ritual. Have warned the neighbours there could be naked dancing and music….

          • Matiri 2.1.1.1.1
            21 June 2021 at 9:41 am

            Planted our garlic six weeks ago to (hopefully) harvest before garlic rust gets chance to take hold. Plants are already 10cm high.

            • Rosemary McDonald 2.1.1.1.1.1
              21 June 2021 at 10:02 am

              Three weeks ago I bunged three cloves of shop bought garlic into a yogurt pot to see if they'd grow. Two are well over 10 cm and the one I thought had failed is up about 4cm. Last years crop was a fizzer due to drought and us not having collected enough water to maintain even minimum hydration. This year…our cups runneth over…77000 litres stored up. Still picking outdoor tomatoes.smiley

      • Incognito 2.1.2
        21 June 2021 at 9:19 am

        Garlic, onions, ginger, cloves, nutmeg, you name it. My dreams are more lucid than Nostradamus’s!

  3. Muttonbird 3
    21 June 2021 at 9:23 am

    Cactus smuggling. It's a thing.

    Armed with a search warrant, Italy’s police wildlife unit entered the house of a suspected cactus trafficker, finding more than 1000 rare cacti poached from Chile's Atacama Desert in a locked room.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/homed/garden/300337908/rare-poached-cacti-found-in-italian-raid-and-sent-home-to-native-chile

  4. ghostwhowalksnz 4
    21 June 2021 at 10:20 am

    Something I saw in NT Times this morning about US 'labour shortage', which sort of reflects what the industry groups are claiming here – but they want the migrant tap of cheaper labour to be turned back on.

    However as NY Times points out , a lot more people have quit there jobs this year , as last year was a holding pattern for those who feel underpaid or dont like their job anymore

    "By some estimates, more than five million fewer people quit last year than would otherwise be expected, as some workers, riding out the labor market’s convulsions, stuck with jobs they may have wanted to leave anyway"

    So the mirage of labour shortage , often meaning not 5-10 people applying only 1 or 2, is just a consequence of the labour force stability last year ( apart from those that lost their job) and a higher turnover in last 6 months

  5. Rosemary McDonald 5
    21 June 2021 at 11:14 am

    Celebrations afoot at the news that local 'lassie' Laurel scores another first place.

    I guess its tough shit for female athletes, who can just go and stfu.

    • ghostwhowalksnz 5.1
      21 June 2021 at 3:38 pm

      Really …and who else made the qualifying mark ?…what would you know about weightlifting any way

      The NZ team includes 3 female and 2 male in differing categories

      Take your own advice !

      • Rosemary McDonald 5.1.1
        21 June 2021 at 4:35 pm

        You are making little sense. Again. Did you actually read the links provided?

        I guess not.

        • McFlock 5.1.1.1
          21 June 2021 at 5:04 pm

          Only one quote suggested that Hubbard was taking someone else's place. Difficult to see, as no other woman in NZ seems to have qualified for her weight class.

          But far be it for me to suggest that your desire to exclude a trans person be critical of a trans person's gender from a competition should remain unexpressed.

          • weka 5.1.1.1.1
            21 June 2021 at 5:51 pm

            It's not excluding trans people, it's excluding trans women from a particular category, not sport generally. We exclude men from women's sports. Straight people can be excluded from gay and lesbian space. Paheka from Maori spaces and so on. Exclusion isn't inherently bad.

            "be critical of a trans person's gender"

            No-one cares about gender, the issue is biological sex.

            The trip from women wanting to discuss the fairness issues of trans women and other biological males in women's sports, to 'bigots want to exclude trans people from sport and should stfu' is a big one.

            • McFlock 5.1.1.1.1.1
              21 June 2021 at 5:54 pm

              So nobody wants to exclude Hubbard from the event?

              • weka …
                21 June 2021 at 6:01 pm

                are you being stupid or a smart arse?

                Lots of people think that Hubbard should compete based on biological sex. That means not in the women's competition, because the reason we have women's separate from men's sport is fairness due to physical differences between the two sexes. There’s plenty of research and analysis out now on how males retain male advantage despite medication to alter hormones.

                Instead of expecting women to be disadvantaged to make way for trans women and other males, we should be retaining women's rights and looking at how to create sports that will work for trans people. And non-binary, because that's what's coming up next.

                • McFlock …
                  21 June 2021 at 6:27 pm

                  I just forgot most of the many levels on which this debate has become utterly pointless.

                  So sure, Hubbard has taken someone else's place for the Olympics (even though nobody else from NZ qualified for that weight class), and will have an unfair advantage over other Olympic competitors (even though her record suggests she seems to be on a par with other Olympic-qualified women weightlifters in her class), and excluding transwomen from a category isn't exclusion at all. She should have seperate but equal events, I guess.

                  • weka …
                    21 June 2021 at 6:56 pm

                    if it's pointless why are you here? It matters a great deal to many women. You can ignore the arguments all you like, but please don't pretend that you don't know what they are or that they don't exist.

                    "and excluding transwomen from a category isn't exclusion at all"

                    excluding transwomen from the category of women is exclusion, just like we exclude other males.

                    Let's just cut to the chase. The end point here is that women would not be able to have female only space if we are no longer allowed to name our own class. You may not care about that (still surprises me though), but it's supreme bullshit to say this is about fairness if you are elevating trans women at the expense of women. Because that just looks like the same old sexist shit all over again.

                    • McFlock …
                      21 June 2021 at 7:33 pm

                      I made a comment because the regrettable leftish tendency to oppose injustice jumped the gun on my better judgement. Tends to happen when I read links that don't seem to be based on an impartial selection of facts – I'd still like to see who missed out because Hubbard qualified for the Olympics in her weight class.

                      If you still think the trans recognition movement is about "elevating" transwomen above other women rather than addressing the basic othering and exclusion of transpeople (and the entire damned spectrum of nonbinary people), or don't see why that is important, no worries.

                      In twenty years probably nobody will get what the fuss was about.

                    • weka []
                      21 June 2021 at 9:02 pm

                      If you still think the trans recognition movement is about "elevating" transwomen above other women rather than addressing the basic othering and exclusion of transpeople (and the entire damned spectrum of nonbinary people

                      I neither said that nor believe that. Read it again. What I said is that you, and lefties in general, can’t claim to be supporting trans people out of fairness while removing women’s rights. That you as a man think you know better than feminists what women’s rights entail and whether there is a conflict of rights, fundamentally undermines any position of being on the side of justice.

                      as for othering, what strikes me as significant about that comment, apart from the gall of lecturing a politicised woman on it, is that I’m guessing you are in favour of sex blindness, similar to how liberal Americans like the idea of colourblindness. It just doesn’t work.

                    • Rosemary McDonald …
                      21 June 2021 at 7:50 pm

                      @McFlock

                      …regrettable leftish tendency to oppose injustice …

                      Just so there's no confusion…the "injustice" you're referring to is towards Hubbard? From the gender critical who object to male- bodied transwomen athletes competing against women in women's sport?

                      Any possibility you could, for a nanosecond or two, put yourself in the shoes of these young women…

                      …and maybe read the comments?

                    • McFlock …
                      21 June 2021 at 8:25 pm

                      Score table was reasonably close. Hardly a massive advantage.
                      Youtube comments gonna youtube.

                    • solkta …
                      21 June 2021 at 9:21 pm

                      @weka

                      You are doing that thing again where you are inserting your comments after the comment that you are replying to rather than in chronological order. This is making the discussion hard to follow. I note that you only do this when discussing this issue and it seems an unfair advantage to do this with what are not moderator comments.

                    • weka …
                      21 June 2021 at 9:41 pm

                      Solkta, not quite sure what you mean. I can go into the back end and reply directly to a comment when the reply buttons have run out and this will show my comments as a reply in the Replies tab, and will put my comments ahead of other commenters in the same stream I think.

                      But I haven't been doing that tonight, I've just been on my mobile and laptop replying as per normal in the front end. Can you please explain a bit better what you are seeing (I think there are issues with the mobile version and if this is another one I will pass it on to Lynn).

                    • McFlock …
                      21 June 2021 at 9:43 pm

                      it's supreme bullshit to say this is about fairness if you are elevating trans women at the expense of women.

                      ok, fair call. "at the expense of" vs "over".

                      It's still a bullshit framing that will be reduced to the history books and a few social conservatives in a couple of decades.

                      As for the rest, I don't just listen to transwomen on this. I listen to other women who disagree vehemently with anything close to your position, and throw the t-acronym you dislike about with free abandon. I listen to Rosemary, who referred me to fecking youtube comments about "genetic manipulation" and "axes" for some damned reason. I even try to listen to you, and reflect upon the points you make.

                      But the thought of being referred to youtube comments and tweets with highly selective evidence for the next couple of months just makes me very tired.

                    • weka []
                      21 June 2021 at 10:05 pm

                      Test comment

                    • Weka2 []
                      21 June 2021 at 10:07 pm

                      Test logged out.

                    • solkta …
                      21 June 2021 at 9:49 pm

                      @weka

                      Your comment at 9.02pm is showing directly after McFlock's at 7.33pm that it replies to but before Rosemary's comment at 7.50pm and another of McFlock's at 8.25pm.

                      The same thing was happening the last time i commented on this issue a couple of weeks ago and i mentioned it in reply to you then.

                    • weka []
                      21 June 2021 at 10:04 pm

                      That’s weird. I suspect it’s when I’m on the mobile version and logged in. I get a reply button on the mobile that I don’t get on my laptop. It’s not anything I am doing intentionally (and I don’t remember reading a comment from you on this before but if you have a link handy it would be helpful to look at another example).

                    • weka …
                      21 June 2021 at 10:09 pm

                      ok, just tested it. It's something the mobile version is doing (not me). And it happens whether I am logged in or not. So it should also happen with anyone using the mobile version where a thread has run out of replies on the desktop version but there are still reply buttons on the mobile version.

                      edit, just noting that the mobile version doesn’t have time stamps on each comment like in the desktop version.

                    • solkta …
                      21 June 2021 at 10:13 pm

                      Your test comment is showing for me as out of sequence before my last comment.

                      The other time i was referring to was in Daily Review of 21/05.

                      solkta …

                      23 May 2021 at 3:30 pm

                      @Weka @2.54pm but under my post @12.31pm

                      You have been trying really hard to put words in my mouth and i really don't appreciate it. You have been behaving like RL.

                      All i have been saying is that LGBTQ spaces are for all LGBTQ people. If L people want to have a separate space then that space can't be within LGBTQ space, ie Pride.

                      Also, inserting your posts out of time sequence is making all this hard to follow. As these aren't moderation notes this seems unfair.

                    • weka …
                      21 June 2021 at 10:17 pm

                      thanks Soltka, I hadn't seen that comment before (and it's useful for me to read on terms of the conversation there as well as the threading issue).

                      yes, my test comments are out of chronological sequence, because I made them on my phone using the mobile version. This comment is on my laptop.

                    • weka …
                      21 June 2021 at 10:26 pm

                      @McFlock, I hadn't seen that comment from you the other day either. Ironically, one of things I was hoping from posting Hilton's tweet is the kind of discussion you brought to bear on it, but unfortunately it got derailed early on.

                      If Hilton is cherry picking problematically (rather than her just tweeting some charts she was working on that day), I'd like to know. Sometimes it's easier to get someone to explain charts than to figure it out myself (I don't have that background), so I laid down a challenge.

                      Here's what she said later in the thread,

                      https://twitter.com/FondOfBeetles/status/1399673573988524035

                      Imo, she's worth following because she does usually explain better what her argument is.

                      The other irony is that if there hadn't been such a massive suppression of debate, I'd be putting up researches and clear posts on the topics and we could be wrangling with the issues in the comments, rather than me dropping stuff I find on twitter randomly in OM or DR and us talking past each other.

                      Assuming of course I could get past the elephant in the living room of why there are no feminists posting about feminism here. So you might understand then why I'm tetchy about the whole thing.

                    • McFlock …
                      22 June 2021 at 12:05 am

                      For one thing, in the extended chart she's looking at one result in all weight classes and controlling for age.

                      Seems to me, if you're looking at a sport that has its main divisions by weight, maybe control for that? If the arguments are that two groups have people of different weights, then neglecting to control for that factor creates a chart that's misleading. The primary questions are whether a 130kg trans woman has an advantage over another non-trans woman, and whether weight classes reflect the participants. If the weight classes for the Masters are divided by the blank lines, then some classes consist of only a 5kg spread in weight, while the SHW class Hubbard is in has something like a 40kg spread between the four competitors.

                      She has a fair call about Hubbard's age, but then Precious Mackenzie was getting weightlifting medals for NZ in his 40s. So not sure one datapoint means anything.

                      The other way in which the masters seem to be an aberration in the apparent spread between the gold medalists and the following three competitors, compared to e.g. the panpacs or the 2019 world champs (and dayum that was a fascinating googlehole). In the world champs Hubbard came 6 out of 19, with not one opponent under 100kg as far as I can see, with at least a couple heavier than her.

                      But I don't see the last ten years of the IWF world champs all in a line, just the one with a lot of people in it for the fun. Might skew the spread a bit.

                      edit: hell of a google digression to get a handle on it, though – wikipedia, competition score pdfs, all sorts of sports websites. Interesting – didn’t know people kept such data online.

            • Rosemary McDonald 5.1.1.1.1.2
              21 June 2021 at 6:08 pm

              I read his comment and decided to treat it with the contempt it deserves.

              Nothing new in men deriding women. Unless they're talking about transwomen, then these men are on their side.

              If it wasn't so fucking depressing it'd be hilarious.

              • weka …
                21 June 2021 at 6:18 pm

                there's a whole thesis to be written on how left wing men have abandoned the concept that women get to have their own politics while at the same time upholding the right of trans women to have their own politics. It's almost like it wasn't real and all the time it was just men supporting women where their interests aligned, not because women a deserving of a full place in society. Of course such a thesis won't be written at the moment because the punishments in academia are too severe. Not even going to be a post on TS.

                • Rosemary McDonald …
                  21 June 2021 at 6:25 pm

                  Between you and me and the gatepost, I think the wee mites are shit-scared of us.

                  Fear begats hate and all that.

          • ghostwhowalksnz 5.1.1.1.2
            21 June 2021 at 5:55 pm

            yes. Its the apparently the largest NZ team in weightlifting…. as those going met the standard and in separate classes. I wonder why so many qualified.

            never mind, the pitchforks and hoods are being passed to the mob ,out to protect the purity of womenhood.

            The men and womens groups of that american group of bigots had this as their creed

            'This organisation is not anti-jew, anti-catholic nor anti-negro BUT we restrict our membership to native born, white, protestant, gentile American citizens.' …plus White supremacy.

            Change a few words and we are back in the 1920s.
            These are the possible women classes, Hubbard is the selectee in 87 kg and over, in spite of lies told in Rueters link.
            45 kg (99.2 lb) (non-Olympic)
            49 kg (108 lb)
            55 kg (121 lb)
            59 kg (130 lb)
            64 kg (141 lb)
            71 kg (157 lb) (non-Olympic)
            76 kg (168 lb)
            81 kg (179 lb) (non-Olympic)
            87 kg (192 lb)
            87 kg and over (191 lb+)

            [you’re going to have to up your game in this debate. I couldn’t make much sense of your previous comment, and this one is not much better. What lies? If you are going to make a claim of fact, you have to back it up. There’s an expectation that in controversial topics you will do this in real time, not after being asked. The reason for this is to stop people just dropping in bullshit and slurs that derail or flame instead of debating the issues.

            Please reread the Policy especially the bit about not using tone or language that has the effect of excluding others. If you want to make the argument that gender critical women are the same as the KKK (I think this is what you are doing), then you will have to make the argument, credibly, and back it up. You cannot just call feminists nazis on TS.

            I’m leaving your comment, but know that you’re now using up my moderator time for the second time in a few days and I’ve got short patience for regulars here being so disrespectful of the boundaries and kaupapa of the site. And yes I will do the same moderation if gender critical people start with the same kind of slurring, derailing, non-debate bullshit. – weka]

            • weka 5.1.1.1.2.1
              21 June 2021 at 6:13 pm

              mod note.

              • ghostwhowalksnz …
                21 June 2021 at 6:58 pm

                Im not your student or subordinate and dont have to justify my view the lies told in mere Reuters link. – no context from the story added , no mention why its important , just a drive by link tossed there along with STFU.

                Wheres this person who was left out because Hubbard was selected ? Wheres the beef ?

                'understanding' is the new 'safety', a cliche used to dismiss opinions or inclusion that dont align with the 'right outlook' on gender

                • weka …
                  21 June 2021 at 7:07 pm

                  Feedback: some of your comments are really hard to parse. Honestly, I have to read them three times to understand what you mean.

                  Rosemary didn't tell anyone to STFU in the opening comment, she made the point that women are being told to not talk about the issues and she linked to an article discussing that.

                  Wheres this person who was left out because Hubbard was selected ? Wheres the beef ?

                  Women have already lost out competing against Hubbard. Hubbard will be competing against female athletes again, with Hubbard's male bodied advantage. That's the beef.

                  'understanding' is the new 'safety', a cliche used to dismiss opinions or inclusion that dont align with the 'right outlook' on gender

                  what does that even mean? this is a classic example of you saying something but not explaining.

                  You can assert independence from boundaries on TS, but I will continue to moderate, and across the board the thing that it ends up being about is wasting moderator time. There's only so many times I'm going to ask for you to up your game and support your assertions before I just start putting in short, and then increasing bans. You can say some abhorrent things here, but there are rules around how you do that. I've explained well enough where the boundaries, ball is in your court.

                • Rosemary McDonald …
                  21 June 2021 at 7:13 pm

                  the lies told in mere Reuters link. Specifically?

                  no context from the story added , no mention why its important , I prefer brevity, ghostwhowalksnz, and letting the link speak for itself. My personal opinion on the matter would be indicated by the "I guess its tough shit for female athletes."

                  Golly gosh…this is akin to a Year 8 English class on comprehension.

            • Rosemary McDonald 5.1.1.1.2.2
              21 June 2021 at 6:14 pm

              protect the purity of womenhood.

              Nevermind the 1920s….your ancestors, it seems, failed to land far enough from the tree.

              Come back when you've learned the difference between 'biological sex' and 'gender.'

              The difference between the twain matters…especially in sex segregated sports.

  6. Historian Pete 6
    21 June 2021 at 12:27 pm

    The New Zealand Medical Council are threatening doctors with terminating their employment if they have the temerity to criticise the vaccine rollout. Shades of East/ Germany/ the Soviet Union .All free speech regarding the vaccine rollout has been cancelled.We are not a country that welcomes both sides of an argument being presented, and the public making up its own mind. No informed consent here ! The Death of Democracy!!!

    • Incognito 6.1
      21 June 2021 at 12:40 pm

      This is a fine example why you should include a link in your comment, so that others can see what you’re on about and check for themselves.

      For example, https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/445179/doctors-spreading-misinformation-about-covid-19-may-lose-their-job-medical-council

      If you read that article, you’ll see that you’re barking up the wrong tree and that you have the wrong end of the stick.

      There are plenty of experts, including medics, who are criticising the Government without fear of losing their jobs, e.g., the Plan B group and Professor Des Gorman come to mind.

      I take a dim view of commenters who spread misinformation here.

    • Drowsy M. Kram 6.2
      21 June 2021 at 12:41 pm

      The New Zealand Medical Council are threatening doctors with terminating their employment if they have the temerity to criticise the vaccine rollout.

      What is the nature of this criticism? Logical, I hope, given that it's coming from “doctors“.

      Thirteen doctors under investigation after complaints about spread of Covid-19 misinformation [20 June 2021]
      “Misinformation kills, we know that.”

      Health professionals sign letter with misleading claims around Pfizer's Covid vaccine [14 May 2021]
      The letter's contents have been described by experts in the field as misinformation, or incomplete and taken out of context at best.

      Special Report: The ex-Pfizer scientist who became an anti-vax hero
      A Facebook post carries a video from November in which Yeadon claimed that the pandemic “fundamentally… is over.” The post has been viewed more than a million times.
      https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-vaccines-skeptic-s-idUSKBN2BA179

    • McFlock 6.3
      21 June 2021 at 1:06 pm

      three exclamation marks. It must be serious.

      I'll go out on a limb here and suggest that any doctor who actively dissuades people from using a tested and safe vaccine during a pandemic is unfit to practise medicine and deserves to be struck off.

      Sure, if they can document clear levels of harm, especially if that harm is in the same order of magnitude or greater than from covid, they're whistleblowers.

      But distributors of woo should be struck off.

    • Anne 6.4
      21 June 2021 at 6:30 pm

      You fail to mention said doctors are peddling misinformation about Covid 19 which I am sure is contrary to the ethical standards expected of such people. Any doctors who behave like that deserve to be struck of the medical register forthwith.

      • Rosemary McDonald 6.4.1
        21 June 2021 at 6:37 pm

        You fail to mention said doctors are peddling misinformation about Covid 19 …

        Exactly what is it that they are saying that amounts to "peddling misinformation", if it is the letter I linked to above that is the source?

        • Anne 6.4.1.1
          21 June 2021 at 6:43 pm

          Nope. I reads newspapers and listen to the news. Try it. You might learn something.

        • Incognito 6.4.1.2
          21 June 2021 at 10:03 pm

          I tried to find it on the Medical Council website (https://www.mcnz.org.nz/) but could not find anything. The closest I could find was this: https://www.mcnz.org.nz/about-us/news-and-updates/expectations-for-covid-19-vaccination-released-for-doctors-and-dentists/

          Can you please point to the investigation and reasons why the Council is investigating doctors for potentially spreading misinformation around Covid-19? Thank you in advance.

          • Rosemary McDonald 6.4.1.2.1
            21 June 2021 at 10:48 pm

            This letter…written in April and signed by 40-odd members of MC who all appended their MC registration numbers. This I saw as an indication of their integrity and willingness to put their reputations on the line. ( You might have noticed I have a thing about folks opining anonymously.)

            I understand more have since signed. IMHO there is certainly nothing in that letter that warrants such a response from the Medical Council. (I hope there is another letter somewhere that merits such censure.) A link within the article would have helped.

            This is the only such letter that I've read. I had to go looking for it and it was by chance I found it. Well, not quite…I read the decision from the case Sue Grey took to the court over Section 23 of the Medicines Act which forced an immediate response from Government to rectify the 'anomaly.' Fascinating stuff if holding truth to power is one's thing.

            There was a time, not long since, when folks here would do likewise and dig a little deeper into the scary, shouty headlines dealt up by MSM. Having personally been a victim of such I make a real effort to fact check.

            • Incognito 6.4.1.2.1.1
              21 June 2021 at 10:56 pm

              Ta

              I have no detailed knowledge of the MC investigation. In any case, Historian Pete made all sorts of weird and wild accusations without rhyme or reason. I don’t think he’s a genuine historian. Do you?

            • Sacha 6.4.1.2.1.2
              22 June 2021 at 11:32 am

              MHO there is certainly nothing in that letter that warrants such a response from the Medical Council.

              The response is not about the letter.

        • Sacha 6.4.1.3
          22 June 2021 at 11:31 am

          The letter is not the source.

  7. Stuart Munro 7
    21 June 2021 at 2:15 pm

    Perhaps taking the hint from Winston, Barnaby Joyce has returned.

    As if Australia hadn't troubles enough.

  8. Historian Pete 8
    21 June 2021 at 2:54 pm

    Firstly, I have witnessed the biggest suppression of news and debate that has occurred in New Zealand since the 1952 Waterfront Strike. I can remember the NZBC around 2005 refusing to air a topic on the grounds that they were unable to present both sides of the story. Now it is par for the course that only one side is presented .The New Zealand public have a right to hear both sides. I have neither seen on TV{Tova Obrien anyone?} nor read in newspapers ie the Herald, any reasonable coverage of the views of those opposed to the" Vaccine' rollout. This is a suppression of free speech. How can these Doctors have a professional debate when they are closed down in all avenues. They have the courage to speak out at a significant risk to their professional careers. They have a credo to live up to: To do no harm. And the Pfizer jab is to them not in the interests of their patients.So they refuse to be gagged.

    Secondly My own reseach on the topic has lead me to believe that firstly the jab is not a vaccine.A vaccine immunises the patient and prevents transmission.The Pfizer jab does neither. A plethora of toxic side effects is occuring after the " vaccination", especially the second one, which includes death. This is occurring far more frequently than would have occurred if the rollout had not happened at all . The Authorities are doing a sterling job of suppressing the real deaths happening being revealed to the public. However the TRUTH is slowly being revealed. Resistance is growing as we speak .This toxic Experimental "vaccine" has been established in haste, and many throughout the world now fear that long term it will result in unaccepable casualties ..

    So, the death of free speech, and the termination of informed consent. And serious harm to a large number of the public. A determined group of Doctors acting on their conscience .I know whose side I'm on!!!

    • McFlock 8.1
      21 June 2021 at 3:07 pm

      Professional debates do not happen in the media, generally. So no suppression there.

      Professional debate between scientists involves evidence. The moonbats have none, so no suppression there.

      The news media is supposed to disseminate news, not moonbat theories, otherwise the nightly news would headline whatever the local crazy person was yelling in the street. So no suppression there.

      Your own research has led you to make some interesting claims, including "The Authorities are doing a sterling job of suppressing the real deaths happening being revealed to the public." I'm glad that you have managed to compromise this veil of official secrecy with your own research, which doubtless includes unearthing evidence buried in youtube videos. They can bury the corpses, but they can't censor online content, eh! /sarc

    • Drowsy M. Kram 8.2
      21 June 2021 at 3:30 pm

      Intriguing PoV. Personally think it's OK that these determined doctors won't be getting immunised against COVID-19 – just hope their patients will be OK.

      Both Pfizer, AZ vaccines effective against Delta variant

      The Pfizer vaccine was 79 percent effective against the Delta variant and 92 percent against the Alpha variant at least 14 days after the second dose. The AZ vaccine was 60 percent effective against the Delta variant and 79 percent against the Alpha variant.

      Earlier, Public Health England released similar study results. The study said two full doses of the Pfizer vaccine reduced the chance of hospital admission for the Delta variant infection by 96 percent. Two doses of the AZ vaccine lowered the risk of the infection progressing to a serious disease by 92 percent.

      https://health-reporter.news/study-pfizer-vaccine-works-against-gamma-variant/

      https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

      Are the MSM still giving air time to climate change deniers?

      https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/300338071/auckland-tornado-46k-raised-for-killed-workers-family-papatoetoe-cleanup-continues

      https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/445149/flash-floods-from-east-cape-to-napier-more-rain-expected-around-new-zealand

      • Adrian 8.2.1
        21 June 2021 at 5:03 pm

        You undermine your own credibility by attributing every single climatic event to CC. Tornados have been occuring in NZ for as long as it has been above the waves and they are common in one form or another in almost every country in the world, and as for heavy rain and floods, if you believe that they are only a recent addition to weathers numerous variations, you are really dreaming. Even last weeks large floods in Canterbury are merely proof of how the Plains were formed over millennia. If you want to be believed you must first of all be believable.

        • Drowsy M. Kram 8.2.1.1
          21 June 2021 at 5:54 pm

          You undermine your own credibility by attributing every single climatic event to CC.

          Yes Adrian, I sometimes undermine my credibility, here and elsewhere.

          As to whether I attribute "every single climatic event to CC", others can judge the credibility of that charge. Fwiw, I believe that "attributing every single climatic event to CC" is as silly as suggesting that there is no causal link between climate trends (and the frequency and/or severity of extreme weather events), and global warming. Time will tell.

          How much Canterbury flood damage was caused by climate change?

          Within a few weeks, scientists will have estimated how much climate change contributed to last week’s Canterbury storm and floods.

          It’s called “attribution science” and New Zealand researchers have been working on it since 2009, Niwa’s principal climate scientist, Dr Sam Dean, says.​

          The problem has been that getting an answer has taken many months, by which time people have moved on, he says. But two pieces of work are under way that may produce answers “within days after an extreme weather event”.

          “Attribution has a really strong role in communicating with people the idea that climate change is the here and now. It's not something for the distant future,” Dean says.

          “I spent years talking about what might happen in the year 2100 if we don't mitigate climate change and that's still true, but it disengages with people. It's much more powerful to [show that we] live in a different world now. We've already had more than a degree of warming and that is affecting everything – from ecosystems to floods to heat waves to droughts.”

          Climate Change Indicators: Weather and Climate
          Rising global average temperature is associated with widespread changes in weather patterns. Scientific studies indicate that extreme weather events such as heat waves and large storms are likely to become more frequent or more intense with human-induced climate change. This chapter focuses on observed changes in temperature, precipitation, storms, floods, and droughts.

    • ghostwhowalksnz 8.3
      21 June 2021 at 3:41 pm

      Laughable …

      "Secondly My own research on the topic has lead me to believe ….. [the rantings of a disturbed mind….]

    • bwaghorn 8.4
      21 June 2021 at 4:13 pm

      Right who left the gate open and let the crazy in?

      • greywarshark 8.4.1
        21 June 2021 at 4:43 pm

        Suppression of free speech. Decades ago, when MMP was mooted we held a public meeting to explain it. Quite a good turn-out, and worked well as we sat and listened and took it in. The time was well-used and the understanding was enhanced as we did not give any time to the FPP proponents who gnashed their teeth.

        No-thinking types like them did not want us to waste our time exercising our minds about possible worthy changes to the political process. We also had a very firm woman time-keeper of a Liberal persuasion who was interested in a well-controlled meeting which enabled informed discussion.

        The types 'agin-it' just want to choose their weapons and hit people over the head to stop them daring to divert their minds from the very satisfactory system they have decided they like and want to retain.

    • Adrian 8.5
      21 June 2021 at 4:43 pm

      Listen Shit-For-Brains, there is no alternative evidence on the pros and cons for vaccination, but what there is a job offer going on your preferred planet and you and your dopey flat-earthers should be right on to it as it needs qualified expendables to join them. See Jenny at 9 at 3.00pm. Bon voyage and good riddance.

    • Pat 8.6
      21 June 2021 at 4:54 pm

      "The New Zealand Broadcasting Corporation (NZBC) was a publicly owned company of the New Zealand Government founded in 1962. The Broadcasting Act 1976 then reformed NZBC as the Broadcasting Corporation of New Zealand (BCNZ).[1] The corporation was dissolved on 1 April 1975, and replaced by three separate organisations: Radio New Zealand, Television One, and Television Two, later known as South Pacific Television. The television channels would merge again in 1980 to become Television New Zealand, while Radio New Zealand remained unchanged."

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand_Broadcasting_Corporation

    • mac1 8.7
      21 June 2021 at 5:27 pm

      Historian Pete- the first job of the historian is to get the dates right; otherwise, anything you say afterwards is somewhat blighted by doubt as to your actual knowledge, doubt of your proofreading skills and doubt as to your right to appropriate the title of historian.

      The Waterfront Dispute (that it was a strike is actually itself disputed) took place in 1951.

    • Anne 8.8
      21 June 2021 at 5:52 pm

      All hail to the “suppression of free speech” when the nut-bars turn up. I s'pose you support Donald Trump and believe the presidential election was stolen from him.

      Do you believe the moon landing was a fake and that the American government was responsible for the World Trade Centre terrorist attacks? Or worse still do you believe it was a false flag and it never happened at all?

      Geez… you need brain surgery on the one and only brain cell you possess.

      • dv 8.8.1
        22 June 2021 at 9:25 am

        Geez… you need brain surgery on the one and only brain cell you possess.

        Interesting assumption that he/she has a brain cell.

  9. Jenny how to get there 9
    21 June 2021 at 3:00 pm

    What's more crazy:

    A. Non-stop ads on TV exhorting us all to buy oversized 4 wheel drive utes.

    Or,

    B. A plan to shift the planet further away from the sun so that we can all continue to enjoy driving them well into the future.

    Scientific American

    A Modest Proposal: Let’s Change Earth’s Orbit

    What’s the worst that could happen?

    Maddie Bender, June 18, 2021

    ….Sure, it’s a Sisyphean task in which humanity is Sisyphus and the boulder being eternally pushed uphill is Earth itself. But at least we’d get to keep driving our sweet SUVs! I say we get to work.

    https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/a-modest-proposal-lets-change-earths-orbit/