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Open mike 19/06/2021

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, June 19th, 2021 - 148 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

148 comments on “Open mike 19/06/2021 ”

  1. Jenny how to get there 1

    Is it time to look into the abyss yet?

    The Climate Crisis Is Worse Than You Can Imagine. Here’s What Happens If You Try.

    Peter Kalmus, out of his mind, stumbled back toward the car. It was all happening. All the stuff he’d been trying to get others to see, and failing to get others to see — it was all here. The day before, when his family started their Labor Day backpacking trip along the oak-lined dry creek bed in Romero Canyon, in the mountains east of Santa Barbara, the temperature had been 105 degrees. Now it was 110 degrees, and under his backpack, his “large mammalian self,” as Peter called his body, was more than just overheating. He was melting down. Everything felt wrong. His brain felt wrong and the planet felt wrong, and everything that lived on the planet felt wrong, off-kilter, in the wrong place.

    Nearing the trailhead, Peter’s mind death-spiralled: What’s next summer going to bring? How hot will it be in 10 years?…..

    ……To cool down, Peter, a climate scientist who studied coral reefs, had stood in a stream for an hour, like a man might stand at a morgue waiting to identify a loved one’s body, irritated by his powerlessness, massively depressed. He found no thrill in the fact that he’d been right…..


    • greywarshark 1.1

      How to look into the abyss, fall in, and not have an idea of how to get out? Jenny How to Get There will show us the way.

      • weka 1.1.1

        At least she recognises the cliff we are all running towards full speed.

        we patently still need people ringing the alarm bell even if they don’t know how to stop the stampede. Others know but the bell still needs to be rung.

        • greywarshark

          We have lots of good people here who know all that Jennyhtgt says – no need to fill the posts repeating it. And often with that mocking, all-knowing jibe at the pollies. It is really irritating. It's better to have one rant every now and then than trailing disappointment and discontent with whoever in the government in each comment.

          What we need is keeping on with the next steps being talked about at length, discussed etc as has been done with the electricity thing below. Otherwise we end up with a lot of whining, and whys, and appearing like wimps who don't know their A from their E. Citizens need to be thinking up policy, stuff that will work, and not be too expensive. And show how we can get it going, and keep on about that. And notice when someone goes OTT with plans, and notice when something good does get done. And what we think about it, is it the best thing to be done at present, or is there another way.

          How we can get out of the hole we are in is paramount. And arguing for sensible things, rather than just rushing out to protest all the time. If we can;t get good stuff going and show that we are not goofs that pollies can ignore or throw nice-sounding policies that meet some kindness criteria but are not practical, we are in deep doo-doo next election.

          We don't want Labour going off on a n'uclear' path and leavng their rear undefended so that our pockets get pinched by fast-fingered-financial-finaglers like the nerds in Treasury and the right-wing think tanks as before. Now we have the sharpies using their tech education to build armaments and space weapons and trying to sell us robotics because employers can't get the trained people they want to employ. Great government – look what a f..k up you made, stepping back and leaving it to business to do the thinking and organise the educated people they would want for future employees/

          And look what has happened to us by leaving others to run the country while we thought we could just skive off and were relaxing thinking we had it made. That's 20th century stuff, now Labour needs people who can think about social welfare, and business at the same time.

          This has turned out a rant. So I will add something else I think we need. That is all pollies will have to go through an educational program, which includes humanities and social anthropology as well as business direction, and the environment looking at dairying destruction for one and desertification and desecration of the fertile areas of the earth for minerals etc. And rehashing the idea that progress is good, and physical work and the simple life are for losers and peasants. And perhaps the government terms will be four years, and the pollies must step down and out into private life after three terms – 12 years. And we will learn how to live simply and save up for things, and how to get a house when you have saved a certain amount, just a small one but your own to get started with. Lovely first aims, of what young adults want, achievable and not never-never land. With some happiness in just being and living in a country with people who are interested in each other doing good things, and all enjoy life and work together to cope with climate change and some sort of hostilities, two inevitabilities.

      • Jenny how to get there 1.1.2


        19 June 2021 at 11:31 am

        How to look into the abyss, fall in, and not have an idea of how to get out? Jenny How to Get There will show us the way.

        I don't know if we fall into this abyss that there is a way to get out.

        But what I do know, is that BAU cannot continue in the present.
        Building a bridge for bicycles costing hudreds aof millions of dollars so as not to impinge on cars having untrammelled use of an eight lane motorway in the heart of our biggest city, is BAU folly of the highest order.

        Does the design for this modern folly incorporate a storm cellar, or escape tunnel inside its structure?

        The answer is blowing in the wind

  2. bwaghorn 2


    It's good to know that when us cockies buy all these ev Utes well have clean green power for them 😏

  3. John G 3

    On average 80% of electricity is generated from renewables. Some perspective in the arguments would be helpful. These sort of antics don’t help either.


    • bwaghorn 3.1

      Overheard a very irate ute owner jabbering on about Indonesian coal getting trucked to huntly at 20 loads a day yesterday, and I thought to much fb for that butter sounds like they are telling the truth.

      How will we power 2 million evs in 10 years? .

      • Jenny how to get there 3.1.1

        How will we power 2 million evs in 10 years? .

        Who cares?

        Time to stop playing games.

        • weka

          As someone who will put their body in front of the diggers if they try to dam another South Island river, I care, a great deal.

      • Pat 3.1.2

        "How will we power 2 million evs in 10 years? ."

        I think we can safely say we wont be.

        • weka


        • Jenny how to get there


          19 June 2021 at 11:23 am

          "How will we power 2 million evs in 10 years? ."

          I think we can safely say we wont be.

          I concur with that.

          Even with the rebate, most of us still won't be able to afford them.

          The infrastructure for them is not there.

          Even if it was there, it would struggle to cope with 2 million of them.

          Only vastly expanded public transport network could be converted to electricity at a speed and a cost that will make a difference.

          Four for the price of one.

      • woodart 3.1.3

        with tiwai point smelter shutting down, there will be plenty of electricity generation up for use. and as most ev's should be charged at night(off peak) there shouldnt be much for ute owners to jabber about. hopefully petrol and diesel prices will go through the roof and the last few ute jabberers can have that to whinge about. OR, the ute owners could be pro-active(for a change) and convert there petrol utes to lpg (gee, that sounds familiar) and have clean burning energy..nah, much easier to play the victim….

        • weka

          Do you have the numbers on what Tiwai uses compared to EV use? Is that more of a guess or hopeful thinking?

          • Andre

            A quick calculation sez Tiwai Point uses something like 5.4 billion kWhr per year. A light vehicle can go around 7 km on a kWhr. So Tiwai Point's electricity use could drive a light vehicle 38 billion km. There's around 3.6 million light vehicles in NZ, averaging around 12000 km/year, or around 43 billion vehicle kilometres annually.

            So shutting Tiwai Point would almost cover swapping all light vehicles in New Zealand over to electric.

            (repeated from this 2019 comment: https://thestandard.org.nz/100-carbon-free-power-generation/#comment-1631961)

            • weka

              Ta! So interim partial supply but not enough for trucks, buses, trains, industry and increasing population.

              • Andre

                Yeah, to cover the buses, trucks, trains etc as well we'd need to get a move on with building some of the already consented wind and geothermal projects that have been shelved because of flat demand and the ever-present threat of Tiwai Point shutting and dumping all that excess power into the market.

                Probably also need some hefty pumped storage,like the Onslow-Manorburn basin and/or around Lake Moawhango and the headwaters of the Ngaruroro.

                • ghostwhowalksnz

                  Wind ?

                  During last week at the morning peak the wind output was around 15% of its capacity in NI ( which is 700MW)., its currently at 23% – which is typical.

                  geothermal is more like 80% of capacity which is typical as they have to allow for reserve generation which can be accesed quickly

                  • Andre

                    Most geothermal power technologies really don't like being ramped up and down. So they're great for continuous baseload power.

                    Yes, wind has its intermittency problem. Hence the merit in adding substantial pumped hydro storage. Overall, wind in NZ seems to operate at around 35% capacity factor on an annual basis. That should increase as installed turbines get larger, maybe getting up to around 40% fleet average.

                    So to add another Manapouri's worth of generation to supply electric buses, trucks etc would require installing maybe 1800MW of wind plus pumped hydro storage, or 700ish MW of geothermal. Or do both to have enough generation capacity to completely electrify NZ land transport plus shut down Huntly and Stratford. I only got a short way down the list of consented projects and there was well over 2000 MW of wind consented, together with around 300MW of geothermal.

                • weka

                  what happens when that's not enough?

                  • francesca

                    What about solar panels on homeowners roofs?

                    I know quite a few EV owners who use their own solar to charge their EVs

                    • weka

                      It's all solvable, with changes in behaviour, living within our means, utilising local and owner generation as well as national grid, electricitysector regulation. But we're not having that conversation nationally atm. Instead we're having the green tech BAU, reductionist paradigm one, where we continue to think that the world is an unlimited resource.

                      (and that's not even getting to the issues of how much GHGs we're emitting to go down this cul de sac).

                    • Stuart Munro

                      If EVs become more prevalent, Savonius rotors make a pretty readily managed home charge option. Crunches are likely in things like battery supply and disposal however.

                  • Graeme

                    Biggest constraint will be transmission, most of the bulk generation is in the south, especially wind. There's also distributed generation, solar roofs with batteries. All this will need / result in a rather different electricity generation and distribution market to what we have now.

                    • weka

                      As well as reducing demand via such tech as passive solar building. We're still a long way from this conversation though.

                    • Graeme

                      I built a semi passive house in early 90's (suspended wooden floor so not quite the full thing) and am surprised at the quiet uptake of passive principles in building design. Often not that overt but you can see designers taking opportunities that present themselves.

                  • Andre


                    (Ad, you can roast me now for giving RedLogix an entry to burbling on about them again)

                    • weka

                      Lol, no way will NZ go down that path (quakes, tsunamis, economics, waste disposal, indigenous sovereignty, and a very strong anti-nuke culture in the general population).

                      But it would go some way to explaining why so many people aren’t talking about EVs and power generation, the hope that we will have some inexhaustable source of power in the future.

              • bwaghorn

                Truck ,tractors, earth movers and forestry machines will have to be hydrogen surely

                • Andre

                  If you do a search for an electric version of whatever kind of land vehicle you're interested in, your chances of getting hits are now pretty good. Scandinavian companies seem to be leading the way, at least in wealthy western countries.

                  There's a variety of options for 'refueling', from quick-swap batteries, to running electricity in to longer-term job sites.

                • weka

                  Where will the hydrogen come from?

                • Jenny how to get there


                  19 June 2021 at 1:02 pm

                  Truck ,tractors, earth movers and forestry machines will have to be hydrogen surely

                  Not necessarily

                  All the biggest earth movers on the planet are electrically powered and connected to the grid with high tension trailing power cables, which are moved every day.

                  Ironic really, because they are used to dig for low grade lignite. Which is used for burning in electric power stations, to power, wait for it, electric excavators, connected to the grid by high voltage trailing cables.

              • Sacha

                You'd power the freight and public transit first. Individual vehicles cannot be the priority in a carbon-focused future.

            • Poission

              If Tiwai point was not operating today,there would still be a shortfall of 300mw,without increased use from EV.

            • weka

              did you see this? https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-19-06-2021/#comment-1798935

              If we want off FF, Tiwai closing will almost get us there. That's before the EV fleet upgrade.

              • Andre


                Have you seen any my many comments about the numerous consented and shelved renewable energy projects? Shelved at least partly because of the ever-present threat of Tiwai Point closing and that power flooding the current market?

                • weka

                  That’s a regulatory issue right? The market can’t do the thing that society needs right now. Although I assume you and I disagree on what projects should happen.

              • Poission

                If we want off FF, Tiwai closing will almost get us there.

                That was weekend daytime ,night time demand has now increased by the size of manapouri (5.8 gw vs 4.9) very difficult to ban night time.

            • William

              Your quick calculation misses transmission & distribution losses (~7%), and losses in charging the ev battery (12-15%). That's about 20% of the energy wasted.

              Then there's the consideration of whether allowing business as usual mobility is the best use of Manapouri's generation, because we also have to shut down our coal & gas generation. A lot of our mobility energy consumption can be significantly reduced by providing comprehensive public transport.

              Another issue not often discussed is whether there will be a good supply of reasonably priced EVs. Most other countries are not in the position of having low emission generation. If they are to reduce their fossil generation they won't have electricity for vehicle charging, so there will not be a large demand for EVs and so efficiencies of mass production will not be achieved. NZ will never have enough sales to influence that.

        • Foreign waka

          EVs are unfortunately not quite there yet in terms of battery technology. The reason is the charging system and the hardware that demands high waste, high environmental damage and exploitation of people. But hey, who cares, right? I mean its colonization in a different way all over again. Maybe we can sell the rubbish battery waste back to those who were exploited and give them "work" to diassemble the stuff that rich countries so eagerly buy. So lets celebrate this and encourage more of the exploitation, degradation of a continent and pat ourselves on the shoulder how good we are doing the "right" thing.
          Ah yes, no thinking required, just a cocktail in hand musing over a 100K car.

        • Jenny how to get there


          19 June 2021 at 11:37 am

          with tiwai point smelter shutting down, there will be plenty of electricity generation up for use……

          Hi Woodie, Did you know that aluminium can be used as a fuel?

          It has heaps of embedded electrical energy in it, and has been used for generations in fireworks and explosives.

          Powered and fed into a furnace it burns hotter than coal

          Better yet, when aluminium powder is burnt as a fuel it releases zero green house gas emissiions.

          And it's infinitely recyclable, no need to import any more bauxite from Aussie.

          We could use the existing Tiwai Smelter to re-refine it, and ship it all over the country, and then return it when it is spent, in a closed cycle.

          (The energy embedded in aluminium comes from the electricity in the refining process).

          Could metal particles be the clean fuel of the future?

          …. hydrogen requires big, heavy fuel tanks and is explosive, and batteries are too bulky and don’t store enough energy for many applications,” says Bergthorson, a mechanical engineering professor and Associate Director of the Trottier Institute for Sustainability in Engineering and Design at McGill. “Using metal powders as recyclable fuels that store clean primary energy for later use is a very promising alternative solution.”

          Novel concept

          The Applied Energy paper, co-authored by Bergthorson with five other McGill researchers and a European Space Agency scientist in the Netherlands, lays out a novel concept for using tiny metal particles – similar in size to fine flour or icing sugar – to power external-combustion engines.


          Could we see the rebirth of the external combustion engine, (commonly and collectively known as steam engines), being used to power ships and trains and industrual boilers?

          Could steam engine locomotives powered by aluminium powder one day be seen again on the Main Trumk Line?

          Let's bring back the Kingston Flyer from retirement as a test bed. (See if it still flies.)

          • Jenny how to get there

            Steam Punk was begun in New Zealand.

            Rather than a retro movement harking back to a long dead era, Steam Punks, might just possibly be, ahead of their time.


          • Stuart Munro

            Refining aluminium is a pretty carbon heavy process – it relies on sacrificial carbon anodes that are cured at high temperatures for up to a month. The electricity only shifts the direction of the reaction so that the carbon reduces the alumina – the carbon still burns.

            • Jenny how to get there

              You are right of course

              The aluminium industry produces 1% of global greenhouse gas emissions.
              (this figure is inclusive of non-renewable electricity generation from coal and gas).

              When carbon (or consumable) anodes are used, the reaction frees up the oxygen present in the alumina, but it immediately reacts with the carbon from the anode to form CO2….

              Conventional carbon anodes have a limited life-span as they as ‘consumed’ during the smelting process. The oxidation (or consumption) of the carbon anode creates greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions…..


              The anode is used to carry the electrical energy to the cathode, which in this case is the molten aluminium bath. The anode which is connected to the electricity supply is driven into the molten aluminium which creates a high temperature arc which melts the aluminium, while eroding the anode, which has to be continually replaced.

              Research is being carried out into non-eroding, or inert annodes, and/or low erosion anodes that don't bond with oxygen to form CO2. (or don't do so as much).

              …..According to the IEA, 2008, “the ultimate technical feasibility of inert anodes is not yet proven, despite 25 years of research.” Additional fundamental R&D on materials is needed


              However, all is not lost. coal produces 38% of green house gas emissions.

              If all the coal burnt in the world was replaced with aluminium powder, and all that aluminium was reduced with renewable electricity. Even if aluminium production increased by a multiple of ten, we should still be better off.


      • David 3.1.4

        Of course you don’t just switch off the smelter and hey presto electricity for cars. Five to eight years of investment needed first.


        So it’s a bit like the fabled electric utes. Introduce a car tax now, burn double to coal and the infrastructure will follow in 5 or so years time, maybe.

      • mac1 3.1.5

        We do it in small as well as big parcels. My 13 solar panels will produce some 5000 kw/h annually. My Leaf will use 1600 kw/h to travel 12000 km in a year.

        Note: 1 in 4 Australian homes has solar panels. NZ has 32000 homes (there are 1.9 million households in NZ) with solar power at the end of March- that's 1:60! Australia has 10.2 million households and therefore 2.5 million houses with solar panels. In 2018 it had 1.96 million so equipped.


        That kind of commitment to solar energy would power a lot of EVs.

        Spoke to a fellow takeaways customer last night who enquired after my Leaf. He works in a vineyard where he could see possible expansive use of electric vehicles and machinery. No interest at all from management when he raised the topic.

        Yet, as he said, we have driven electric forklifts for years.

        • ghostwhowalksnz

          Your solar panels and 5000 kw\h annually , The low user household number is 8000kWhr – when they no longer qualify for low user daily charges

          You will cetainly be taking a grid feed – during peak hours, the 'worst time'- to keep your lights on

          Australia is quite unique in its solar power uptake because it has a lot of sun, well ahead of most of NZ- dont forget the shorter daylight hours in winter , and the low level of the sun in the sky

          • mac1

            My point really is that homes and businesses supplied by solar power can help with the greater demand imposed by EVs.

            Produce 5 Mw and use 1.6 Mw in the EV.

      • ghostwhowalksnz 3.1.6

        Yes Huntly has been running for some months as there is a shortage of gas capacity due to a Taranaki NG processing site having long scheduled maintenance.

        The Huntly site which has a gas turbine alongside the last 2 thermal coal boilers operating has been very high output, 600MW plus – as it was originally designed for as a baseload station, not feeding in for morning and night as many other stations do. Any fossil fuel used has to pay carbon taxes on that. As well the power consumption at Auckland which is fed by medium distance lines needs a generator not far away to cover the voltage drop from long distance lines, theres a small GT at Otara plus one at Huntly ( quick start ups)

      • Grumpy 3.1.7

        By then the biggest emitters of most of the GHGs, China, Russia, India etc will probably not even have started cutting back on emissions and coal fired power stations will be springing up everywhere. Global emissions will be accelerating and little ole NZ will be chock full of EVs and will have made absolutely no difference.

        • bwaghorn

          Sorry to disappoint you you ya old curmudgeon, but just because other countries possible arnt acting is not a reason to not do the right thing,

          • Grumpy

            Driving a country into the ground because our leaders want to virtue signal when it will have absolutely no effect is criminal.. So when our economy and society is completely destroyed, China, India, and Russia will decide to follow our example?

            • bwaghorn

              Can you provide any actual evidence that our economy is being driven into the ground,? Or are you just a staunch blue team member who thinks bring their moron memes here is going get you somewhere?

            • gsays

              Grumpy, you sound like part of the choir, a year ago, screeching on behalf of 'the economy'.

              The peril it faced with the lockdowns.

              Turn the record over.

      • Jenny how to get there 3.1.8

        Hi Waghorn,

        If you think topping up their EVs will be front and centre of people's minds. You have just not been paying attention.

        There are people alive now who will experience the biggest biosphere collapse since the Chixilube extinction event.

        Scrambling for higher ground, trying to reserve a space in a storm cellar. Trying to survive frequent extreme weather events, crop failures, might be the sort of things exercising people's minds more than topping up their EV.

        • Incognito

          There are people alive now who will experience the biggest biosphere collapse since the Chixilube [sic] extinction event.


          I thought we were trying to avoid a disaster!?

          In any case, nobody can do anything about a big brick from space hitting Earth.

    • McFlock 3.2

      Well, that was an interesting and wide-ranging thread.

      The "importing coal" reminds me of demands for migrant labour. Smacks of the same thing – outsourcing our unacceptable demands.

  4. weka 4

    Vulva owners*, what say ye? I say fuck the neoliberal capture of social justice and the planet burning machine it rode in on. Also Fuck the parts of the left sanctioning this.

    *the class of humans formerly known as women.

  5. Incognito 5

    A good little media roundup, which gives a glimpse of the frustrations and annoyances of the Stuff gallery reporters.


    • Muttonbird 5.1

      It is a powerful image and well done to Robert Kitchin for capturing it, particularly as Sio appears to have finished his address is leaving the stage. He's taken his glasses off, picked up his notes, it's done. This is a dangerous time for photographers because you tend to down tools as something finishes.

      His assignment that day would have been quite dry, shooting people talking in press conferences. He would have done this hundreds of times and constantly wondered how to make interesting, meaningful images from such familiar and structured circumstances.

      Then just as it's all over, Alan Wendt produces such a simple, human gesture which we all immediately and emotionally connect with. Very, very easy to miss, and it requires a lot of skill and experience to keep alert in those crucial moments.

      High praise from me for that, but the rest of the article is utter rubbish. It's anonymous, sniffy, hurt, self-indulgent, lazy, and hypocritical. The last is what makes me quietly rage. The anonymous Stuff gallery reporters claim the Facebook pages of Ardern and Robertson "ripped off" the image and failed to attribute it properly.

      Well, cry me a fucking river.

      At least Ardern and Roberston's social media handlers made an attempt to credit the photographer, despite committing the terrible crime of misspelling his name. Stuff and New Zealand media have an appalling culture of not crediting photographers. They almost never attribute or caption work properly outside of their own navel-gazing organisations. I see it every single day. It happens to me more weeks than not and I don’t shit the bed over it. Stuff and others are lazy in the extreme, and for them to act all huffy in this instance is hypocrisy in the extreme.

      Accuracy? Stuff are woefully off target here.

  6. Incognito 6

    The idea of being captured by the government gives us an allergic reaction. Holding the powerful to account is now, and will remain, a core job of journalists.

    A robust statement of and for the impartiality and objectivity of NZ journalism in general and Stuff’s journalism in particular.


    • ghostwhowalksnz 6.1

      Powerful to account ? media babble is always about (ordinary) peoples stories, as that gets readers eyeballs which is the most important part of their business

      'news' is a bad word these days , as they want to talk 'stories, engagement, perspectives, conversations' and other buzz words.

      Hard news is dead! The most 'read stories' on NT Times is the recipes, which anyone can see well positioned on their digital front page.

      • Incognito 6.1.1


        Hint: there’s a hint in the headline as to what the article is about and it is not about recipes.

        This is at the top of the piece with the complete documentary of over 38 min.

        Seven children are among 17 civilians killed or injured in incidents connected to unexploded ordnance left behind on New Zealand’s firing ranges, Stuff Circuit's documentary Life + Limb reveals.

        If journalism was in the pockets of government, this would never have been aired.

        I assume you don’t read TS for its recipes either, but it is a good idea for improving its readership statistics cheeky

        • ghostwhowalksnz

          the line quoted -'Holding the powerful to account is now, and will remain, a core job of journalists'

          It just isnt true , the readers of a major 'new's site like NY Times show that the recipes come first. NZ news sites are even fuller of flim flam lifestyle stories and shilling for the property industry

          The newer online only places like Newsroom and Spinoff are even more directly as 'copywriters' for their business supporters. Like this sponsored piece written by the very capable Russell Brown- wheres the investigative pieces from him – no sponsors ?


          • Incognito

            I disagree with you. Stuff is not the NY Times, Newsroom, nor Spinoff although it does cross-post regularly from Newsroom.

            On top of Stuff Circuit’s investigations, we’ve had NZ on Air funding for podcasts such as Once a Panther and Collapse, and for video projects including Munted and Night Shift. Production companies can also seek funding for projects that will air on Stuff, such as Kea Kids News, made by Luke Nola & Friends.

            None of these are “flim flam lifestyle stories and shilling for the property industry” or recipes. Sure, those are present as well, they have to make a living too, don’t they. It is actually mentioned in the article I quoted. A news site such as Stuff will (have to) do all of the above, the good, the bad, and the ugly. They don’t cater just for intellectual snobs, Thorndon bubble, foodies, house porn addicts, or what have you.

            I really don’t see how you came to this description of Newsroom as “even more directly as 'copywriters' for their business supporters”, but I guess I’ve been reading a completely different Newsroom. I can only assume that you’re referring to its partners at the bottom of the home page.

            The independence of our journalism is supported by our partners in the corporate and tertiary education sectors, as well as by private donations from New Zealanders. To add your support to our independent voice, make a donation using the Press Patron platform link here.


            You seem to be insinuating the exact thing that the Stuff article was countering. Just as well, I try to avoid falling in the binary trap and see things differently, so we have to agree to disagree here.

          • Foreign waka

            You got this wrong, sorry to say. Out of some 60 minutes news, 26 are advertisements, 24 are sport, 5 are for local stories and 5 are for flim flam.

            Its only 5 minutes flim flam, LOL.

    • AB 6.2

      "The idea of being captured by the government gives us an allergic reaction"

      Excellent – so if they can add to that an allergy to being captured by their own funders and owners, and even by the interests of the social class to which they themselves belong – then we're really getting somewhere.

      Note: Stuff seems much improved since the sell-off and I'm generally OK with it. Some others, not so much.

      • Incognito 6.2.1

        Yes, I also like to think that Stuff has improved and that they’re not sitting on their laurels.

        However, you make the same unsupported and unfounded (IMO) accusations. There seems much bias against NZ journalism and not without some reason, may I add, but some are definitely trying harder than others.

        Our journalism will remain free from political or commercial influences, as our company charter enshrines. Stuff’s sources of revenue do not affect the impartiality or objectivity of our journalism, the investigations we undertake, or how we scrutinise the powerful.

        As our company charter says:

        “We will fiercely protect our editorial independence from commercial interests, including our own, and any political influence. Our journalists will:

        [followed by 4 bullet points]

        We run stories that are unfavourable to advertisers, and we freely criticise the government. It wouldn’t even enter a journalist’s head to pull their punches to protect a funder.

        And here’s the most relevant bit to your accusation:

        In truth, we’re not politically partisan. Media outlets overseas – notably in the UK – will endorse or align themselves with particular political parties. We don’t. New Zealand is too small for a mass-market product such as Stuff or any of our newspapers to support a political party and still attract a general audience.

  7. weka 7

    On trans women’s physiological advantage when competing in women’s sports. Look at the charts in the Twitter thread. The argument is often made that tw train harder than women and that’s why they jump to top ranking when shifting to women’s categories. Does this seem likely with these figures?

    • ghostwhowalksnz 7.1

      Not that 'amateur' sports medicine researcher Emma Hilton again. The one that has a published research on trans women which didnt include any trans women athletes

      [please provide evidence (a cut and paste with link, not just a link) to back up your claim here, so we can all know what you are talking about rather than just being left with the ad hom – weka]

      • weka 7.1.1

        mod note for you.

        • ghostwhowalksnz

          It was the link you asked us to read last time , and it included the actual online paper published . I made those same comments based on actual words in the paper then, which you dismissed . Surely you read relevant parts of the paper ?

          Hilton works as a research technician in another area completely from sports medicine and has had no previous research published in sports medicine so she an amateur in my opinion

          Its all very well to show stuff from twitter, but as we all found out during covid self appointed experts were very common who had an academic background but no knowledge of infectious diseases and their epidemiology. A court would never allow expert witness testimony from someone who was a proven expert ON a topic

          [post a cut and paste and link explaining your claim about Hilton and “published research on trans women which didnt include any trans women athletes” or you will get a short ban so you don’t derail the discussion. – weka]

          • weka

            2nd mod note and warning. What I am asking for is not difficult.

          • Incognito

            FYI, TS is not a Court but a place for supported opinions and arguments and robust debate, and the odd joke.

            There are very few mind readers among the TS readership and there are very few who remember the previous exchange on this exact issue.

          • weka

            Dr Emma Hilton is a developmental biologist and Research Fellow at the University of Manchester, and teaches in her field. She has a particular interest in the science of biological sex and writes and speaks about this, including in the WSJ and runs the Nettie Project supported by many scientists and academics across a range of disciplines (who obviously don't have your prejudice about cross disciplinary work).


            You appear to be saying that no-one can have an informed opinion about sports medicine other than sports medicine researchers. Which is obviously a stupid position to take because it would invalidate your own (I'm assuming you're not a sports medicine researcher).

            If Hilton is making bad arguments, then address them and demonstrate how they are bad. That you think her being a lowly research technician (afaik she's not) is sufficient to write off her work says something about your own views on hierarchy and power. As a non-academic, I'm much more interested in whether what she says makes sense.

          • ghostwhowalksnz

            Sorry for the delay but had other things to attend to
            Emma Hiltons amateur status regarding sports medicine. her other contributions in publications are her specialist area of infections and such

            Division of Infection, Immunity & Respiratory Medicine

            And from the article in 'Sports Medicine' direct quotes

            Males with prostate cancer undergoing androgen deprivation therapy provide a second avenue to examine training effects during testosterone suppression…

            Males huh ?

            It is acknowledged that the findings presented here are from healthy adults with regular or even low physical activity levels [91], and not highly trained athletes. Thus, further research is required in athletic transgender populations

            The research conducted so far has studied untrained transgender women. Thus, while this research is important to understand the isolated effects of testosterone suppression, it is still uncertain how transgender women athletes [rest of quote missing]

            In my view its junk science, while its not new researach undertaken and its merely a publications review, it has so many caveats that dont make it viable for drawing any conclusions about ‘transwomen athletes’

            [formatting edited for clarity. Italicised emphaisis added by Ghost – weka]

            • weka

              Re Hilton's work, this from her twitter 2 years ago when challenged about her qualifications,

              In response. Alice has the right Emma Hilton. I am currently being paid a basic wage by a colleague to bridge a funding gap after the MRC chucked back my last proposal, despite it garnering two 6s (internationally exceptional) and a 5 (internationally excellent). https://twitter.com/theAliceRoberts/status/1204737787888574464

              3:02 am · 12 Dec 2019

              Science funding is pretty dire right now <grumble Brexit> My scientific record is easily returnable on Web of Science, where metrics such as my h-index will demonstrate the impact of my research. I have received international prizes for my work.

              I am not ashamed that I am struggling to my next funding deadline. I hope normal service will be resumed early next year 🙂

              I am amazingly grateful to my colleagues, who have supported me during the first funding gap I've experienced in 15 years. They are ace. They also know what sex is 😉

              Sorry, I should have spelled this out. Until this current funding gap, I was employed as a senior research fellow. This is the position my current funding application will (fingers crossed) restore to me 🙂

              See also https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-19-06-2021/#comment-1798912


              • weka

                that's why those of us that run online spaces based in debate culture get seriously annoyed with lazy ad homs.

                • ghostwhowalksnz

                  I get annoyed with unqualified researchers putting oar in . You seem to think shes an expert on this area and thus worth quoting her 'twitter'

                  Shes not even a post doc in sports medicine, which the bottom rung of the research ladder. A persons qualifications and background are important in academic research – that why their publications and university position are at very top of the paper.

                  Too bad if that raised as a problem

                  • weka

                    Your annoyance is noted.

                    Hilton is a scientist with enough expertise to comment on research. I also consider her an expert commentator on gender critical social issues and how those relate to sport. As I said, I don’t believe the only people who should be read are those with direct research experience. Eg science journalists have relevant experience to bridge between researchers and the public.

                    And, you seem to have misrepresented Hilton’s expertise.

            • weka

              "Males huh ?"

              What's your point? The research is looking at what physiological advantage biological males have over females, that is conferred at puberty.

              Key Points

              Given that biological males experience a substantial performance advantage over females in most sports, there is currently a debate whether inclusion of transgender women in the female category of sports would compromise the objective of fair and safe competition.

              Here, we report that current evidence shows the biological advantage, most notably in terms of muscle mass and strength, conferred by male puberty and thus enjoyed by most transgender women is only minimally reduced when testosterone is suppressed as per current sporting guidelines for transgender athletes.

              This evidence is relevant for policies regarding participation of transgender women in the female category of sport.

              Seems pretty normal for researchers to suggest further research is needed. This is how science works, it builds on the work of previous research.

              In my view its junk science, while its not new researach undertaken and its merely a publications review, it has so many caveats that dont make it viable for drawing any conclusions about ‘transwomen athletes’

              And yet you don't explain how it is junk science or why it's not useful in the debate about whether TW should compete in all women's sports. All you've said is that it doesn't include TW, but studies on male physiology is relevant (most TW are born biologically male, most go through male puberty, and many have no or minimal medical transition), and research is still in the early stages.

      • Gabby 7.1.2

        Are her facts not acceptable to you?

        • McFlock

          Quoting results from one event at one (open entry) competition four years ago in the career of one trans athlete is called "cherry picking" and displays bias.

          To show an opposite bias, one might point to the 2019 world champs where Hubbard pulled a similar weight to 2017 and came in sixth place. But that would be equally dishonest, because assuming one case to be typical of a population is stupid.

    • ghostwhowalksnz 8.1

      Remember this motorway that was cancelled by new government in 2018

      The EWL was a $1.85 billion priority roading project of the last Government, connecting State Highway 20 at Onehunga and State Highway 1 at Mt Wellington


      • Incognito 8.1.1

        What is your point?

        What does it have to do with my comment?

        What is the relevance to the latest plan to build a new walking & cycling bridge?

        • ghostwhowalksnz

          It was a massive vanity project , with incredible costs, of the last government, the cycling bridge – which I think is aspirational rather than practical- was about half that.

          Its Open Mike isnt it , where the commenting is more free flowing

          • Incognito


            Its Open Mike isnt it , where the commenting is more free flowing

            Sure it is, and when you post a flow of consciousness expect non-mind reading people to ask for clarification. I hope that’s ok with you wink

            Essentially, what I believe you’re trying to convey here is that the walking & cycling bridge is a semi-massive vanity project or a massive semi-vanity project because, you know, it costs a lot of money.

            • ghostwhowalksnz

              No. I said the EW Motorway was an expensive project- twice that of the cycling bridge- that was cancelled.

              Thats its relevance, is as the cost is what has 'aroused hearts and minds' over the cycling bridge.
              No it didnt say 'the bridge' is a vanity project at all . Im still curious about the whole idea thus the aspirational tag.
              Its easier if you leave the part about what I said to me.

              • Incognito

                Thank you for your clear and concise clarification.

                I still have no idea why you brought up the cancelled EW M-way, but I can live with this for another day.

                I have no idea what you mean by “aspirational” but my will to ask and find out has disappeared.

                Enjoy the rest of your day.

  8. joe90 9

    Billy's heir.

    The woman whom thousands of Canadians believe is their secret ruler isn’t afraid to tell her followers she’s calling for the executions of health care workers and politicians behind the vaccination rollout.

    “At the firing squad, the military firing squad, you will receive not one, but two bullets on your forehead for each child that you have harmed as a result of injecting this experimental vaccine,” said Romana Didulo* to those involved in vaccination efforts in a recent video on Telegram. “So when you go home tonight, think about how many bullets.”


    I Am Our Donald*

  9. greywarshark 10

    Tim Shadbolt facing off Deputy Mayor, in a physical challenge. Reminds me of Russia's President Putin wresting with a bear? Showing he was up to it, some years ago. Then married a young gymnast. What next for Shadbolt?


    • Treetop 10.1

      What next for Shadbolt?

      Hopefully retirement as new blood is needed for Invercargill. I am sick of hearing about the infighting that goes on in councils as it is unproductive for the region.

  10. greywarshark 11


    Before end of June!
    There is money for free to go into your Kiwisaver account if you can at least temporarily, boost your savings.

  11. greywarshark 12


    Tampons may need to be flushed down the toilet, and perhaps condoms too. They will both be carrying body fluids that if not disposed off quickly and correctly would be disease carriers. There isn't always a rubbish bin, and how often are they emptied?

    Stop people from using wipes, ban them from supermarkets and pharmacies. People can cut up their old clothes and put them to some use instead of throwing them out when holey in one place. Use them instead of wipes, cut down waste, then thow them in a bin. Make the three-letter words fashionable language, like the four-letter ones!

    Cotton tips are very useful and people will have to learn not to throw them down the toilet. Men as well as women need to learn. Many males regard all that hygiene business and carry-on about doing things right as just fussy stuff that women do.

    • bwaghorn 12.1

      Could be worse it could be alligators.

      Its time councils just accepted that people are going to flush more shit than just shit down the pipes, and engineered for the problem ,

      • greywarshark 12.1.1

        Seems the only way to go but I think preaching about the three 'ps' and bad-mouthing for the others is the modern way. Thinking of efficiency first and foremost is the thing now. People have to be cut and moulded to fit the systems not the other way round. Makes sense – set a target, make people conform. Public service is going down the loo!

  12. joe90 13

    They're a sensitive mob.

    In 1979, just a couple of months into his stint with 20/20, ABC’s fledgling television news magazine, producer and documentarian Joseph Lovett was “beyond thrilled” to be assigned an interview with author James Baldwin, whose work he had discovered as a teen.


    The finished piece is a superb, 60 Minutes-style profile that covers a lot of ground, and yet, 20/20 chose not to air it.

    After the show ran Chase’s interview with Michael Jackson, producer Lovett inquired as to the delay and was told that no one would be interested in a “queer, Black has-been”:

    I was stunned, I was absolutely stunned, because in my mind James Baldwin was no has-been. He was a classic American writer, translated into every language in the world, and would live on forever, and indeed he has. His courage and his eloquence continue to inspire us today.


  13. Sacha 14


  14. Sacha 15

    We need more leaders articulating this sort of vision to get us through the next 20 years.

  15. Incognito 16

    Ministry of Transport spokesperson Ewan Delany said motorcycles were not considered at the start of the Clean Car Discount, because they were a small part of the emissions problem.

    "While this vehicle segment was excluded from the initial Clean Car Standard and recently announced Clean Car Discount, it may be considered for inclusion as the scheme progresses, so that we can respond to the opportunity that new EV and low emission technologies in the motorcycle segment represent."

    The scheme also excluded mopeds and motor tricycles, as well as all heavy vehicles weighing more than 3.5 tonnes.


    To me, this is odd not to say short-sighted and narrow-minded.

    Why not encourage all alternatives for transport that are clean(er) while discouraging fuel cars? What is so different about a motorised 2-wheeler compared to 4-wheeler (AKA car)? Government wants to encourage cycling but not motorised 2-wheelers!? I suppose one would still require a special driver’s licence and all that.

    I said it before, I reckon if e-bikes are subsidised quite a few people will make the switch. I see more and more of them around already. What’s not to like?

    Possibly too much/hard for Government to handle all in one go …

  16. greywarshark 17

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/world/445111/myanmar-coup-un-calls-for-arms-embargo-against-military Another 36 countries abstained, including Russia and China – Myanmar military's two biggest arms suppliers.

    This sounds like a good idea. I wonder if the countries and arms agents can give up their obssession with this horrible practice/drug. Can they go cold turkey?

    2020 (Figures are SIPRI Trend Indicator Values (TIVs) – and
    SIPRI is Stockholm International Peace Research Institute)

    World's Largest Arms Exporters:
    Rank Supplier Arms Exp
    (in billion TIV)
    1 United States 9,372
    2 Russia 3,203
    3 France 1,995
    4 Spain 1,232
    5 Germany 1,201
    6 South Korea 827
    7 Italy 806
    8 China 760
    9 Netherlands 488
    10 United Kingdom429

  17. greywarshark 18

    "Much better sex ed would a be a good start."


    That is a good start to this comment. This sex thing has been around for ever, especially with winning sportsmen. It used to be talked about and then not forgotten but not become the issue it is now with the small cameras that everyone has now in their cellphones. It has now morphed into dirty, deceitful, disrespectful behaviour, and as someone has said, a matter to be bullied about and harassed and shamed. From foolish and unwise to a practice that is turning sexually naive students who are immature into porn actors and perverts with this photographic porn to blackmail and hurt others with.

    What is needed in the short term I don't know. If parents concerned, and the school teachers and pupils had a formal meeting and discussed the problem and just put in words what is happening and how each speaker felt about it, and the long-term results of it, perhaps an agreement could be reached about setting a code of behaviour for individuals to keep to.

    In the long term I am sure that we need some social anthopologists in the Education Department instead of thinking that all we need is to teach science, maths, and communication, and team thinking – to turn out the successful conformists of the future.

    We need to teach philosophy, and how cultures build up, and what zeitgeist and leitmotif mean. We need to talk about individuals having a vision of what they want to be, and how to realise their strengths and weaknesses. And we need to teach the importance of delay of immediate gratification. That would cut out this idea of sex being a sort of drug that you have on a night out. You get blotto and anything can happen, wheee. And then when it happens everyone is shocked if someone cries rape when nobody seemed to be worrying about anything?

    Where does the leadership for teaching personal standards and morality come from? Is there any talk at home/school about how to cope when temptation looms, when companions suggest a good time, no holds barred – are you up for it, to each other? Or is it boys will be boys and we don't impose rules on them, same with girls? How could a bright, intelligent girl get knifed 200 times by a man in a frenzy – of jealousy? What did she know about assessing someone's character and self-control? Who is teaching how to hold back on sex until it is something worthwhile with someone you both like and respect. That cuts right across this drift into decadence that we are in.

    Think Grace Mullane and Tinder? What a dangerous past-time. No need to go puritan and extra-moralistic, just talk personal respect and standards, inner confidence, not being coerced by companions, and looking for real friends not just for the fun-loving, no-worries group.

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