- Date published:
6:00 am, April 22nd, 2022 - 57 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:
Open mike is your post.
For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.
The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).
Step up to the mike …
Another case for Three Waters reform.
”Comment: Whenever Māori try to assert any rights to water it’s treated by politicians as scandalous or a complete non-starter. There usually follows vague accusations of apartheid and special rights being granted to a minority. This reeks of hypocrisy because a racial minority has already grabbed property rights over water and they’ve been doing so for the past three decades. That minority is Pākehā farmers. ”
The ruling caste of older white men needs to be mitigated.
Question….how does 3 Waters impact irrigation takes?
Answer….. it doesn't. Nor does it have any impact on rivers either.
Thats my reading of it….and yet dairy is cited.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
"Nor does it have any impact on rivers either."
Did you read the article?
"But study after study after study has shown that the increased stocking rates and higher volumes of fertiliser, with higher water take by dairy farmers, has contributed to higher nitrate levels in the water that is left"
Yes, but Three Waters only applies to reticulated supply, waste water and storm water. It's influence beyond population centres is minimal.
In a week it will be the one year memorial of the brutal, but perhaps not random, murder of Poli on Tatakamotonga beach:
!!Trigger Warnings from this point on!!
The normalization of violence against trans Tongans is evident in this account beginning at the 28 minute mark on the Leitis in Waiting documentary film that the VeniVidiViti piece references. A trailer freely available on YouTube has snippets from around 1minute 20seconds, but it's only two and a half minutes in full and gives other examples of the evangelical gender essentialists in action, so well worth the watch:
Mataele (President of the Tonga Leitis Association before Kefu) “One of my eldest brothers was always hard on me to get me to speak like a man, walk like a man – you know talk like a man and all that. But I couldn't really do it.
“We got to the point that you put a rope on my neck, and throw the rope out of the sight of the hands, and pull it. To try and get me to speak in a man's voice, you know. And it went a bit too far that it almost choked me, you know. And I think I'm – that scar has always been with me.”
It is a odd exercise in compassion to be glad that a killer escaped the death penalty that they were all too ready to lay on another without even a trial first. More for the benefit (or at least diminished detriment) of Tongan society than the person themselves. And anyway; Poli wouldn't have wanted it himself, the TLA being more about dialogue and advocacy than vengeance. The Gay Panic Defense attempt has the stench of USAn evangelicalism all over it though.
"A trailer freely available on YouTube has snippets from around 1minute 20seconds, but it's only two and a half minutes in full and gives other examples of the evangelical gender essentialists in action, so well worth the watch:"
I have watched the trailer, but not the documentary but will do if you post a link on here sometime in the future.
One point I will note about your comment, is that "gender essentialists" seems to be a derogatory term for those who retain an understanding of the effect of material body reality. In that way, I would fit that description, but would question the derogatory nature of it. "Evangelical" – given the Tongan context and the large part religion plays in the culture, may be an unnecessary descriptor, unless your point was that adherence to a strict religious doctrine harms those who don't follow expected expressions of male behaviour.
While I maintain the importance of the recognition of biology sex in society, and legislation, I also (and always have) supported the right of everyone to personal expression. Men may fit the stereotype of what these 'Evangelicals' consider manly – and there nothing instrinsically wrong with that, but they should also be able to break those stereotypes with full society acceptance. In the trailer, it is men in a very traditionalist religious culture who are unable to adjust their beliefs that are causing harm.
Make sure that you are clear in recognising that aspect of this particular documentary.
As regards the pageant, many women object to the objectification of the body in beauty pageants, and have often written or legally protested outside of venues over decades. This trailer shows a father getting on stage to shame a contestant. Not something I've been aware of happening in all the decades of protests at women's pageants. Once again, a result perhaps of the culture, and that individual's idea not only of acceptable masculinity but also of ego and misplaced pride. Familial abuse writ large and public.
On a side note, I was thinking of the promotion and acceptance of drag kids – like "Desmond is Amazing", (given that I believe that drag is an adult entertainment trope, that exaggerates and caricatures aspects associated with women in a demeaning way) with the justified (to my mind) criticism of child beauty pageants. Both objectify and sexualise children with the excuse of entertainment and self-expression.
In the trailer, 1:54 "We're known as chefs, decorators, do the dirty areas, clean up the house, help the mothers…".
What is the point being made here? If it is that they ask for more roles in society, then fair play to them, everyone should be able to participate fully, but this may be a societal and religious doctrine problem rather than an imported prejudice from the west. Alternatively, it could be read as they are considered of the same worth as those that usually do those tasks – women – and don't want to be relegated to that lowly status. The full documentary would probably expand.
The approach that men or women have to meet stereotypical expectations of personal expression is a problem.
The denial of the distinct and separate reality of living in biological sexed bodies creates another problem.
Don't conflate the two, because it is intellectually dishonest.
Adding the accusation of homophobia into this already conflated perspective, is also problematic.
Let me be clear, I do not condone the use of violence, threats, intimidation in any form.
Be clear with both your assessment of the situation, and your identification of the issues, and your suggestions for solutions, and I – like many other GC women – will engage in good faith.
But I will push back against vague implications that any who speak on this topic are violent, transphobic people who are responsible for murders committed by individuals in traditionalist societies who have little in common with me.
Buy the DVD, or find someplace that streams it online. I don't know anywhere you can watch it entirely for free. Poli is in it, but the focus is far more on Mataele.
While I do regard Gender Criticals as being essentially Gender Essentialists, was this ever Not About You!
It's more that your comment lacks clarity, and has vague suggestions, so is hard to follow, to see what your point is, or what is the information you wish to share.
The dramatisation of the comment is exampled by emotive language and sentences like: "!!Trigger Warnings from this point on!!".
"The normalization of violence against trans Tongans"…"but it's only two and a half minutes in full and gives other examples of the evangelical gender essentialists in action, so well worth the watch"
Implies that the act of violence you prefaced with, is an example of evangelical gender essentialists in action. Equating "gender essentialists" with that murder.
There is no evidence that you have provided that believing in the material reality of biological sex gave impetus to that murder.
"While I do regard Gender Criticals as being essentially Gender Essentialists, was this ever Not About You!"
Which was my point.
Very sad that Poli was murdered as he sounds like a great guy who was well liked and must respected for his work.
I am a little confused about the point of your story though. It sounds like Poli was gay? Not Trans? His murder happened when a young guy from. a broken home, who was a meth addict and had been sniffing Benzene, violently attacked Poli. The murdered alleges that Poli made advances to him, which the judge did not believe. Whether or not it was the case, the situation never justifies a sustained attack that lead to murder., but it sounds to me like the murderer lost the plot due to substance abuse.
I understand your mixed feelings that the young man didn't get the death penalty. It sounds like this was because it was a first offence, his background and his family paying reparations. But shocking the injuries he inflicted on Poli.
My understanding is that the murder rate for trans gender people in NZ is lower than ci people. The last Trans person to be murdered was in 2010 in Upper Hutt. The victim was beated to death afterr a drug deal when wrong. Murder is shocking
I don't wish violence on anyone.
How on earth could the judge determine advances were not made?
Perhaps the murderer lost the plot due to constant abuse by the victim.
"Very sad that Poli was murdered as he sounds like a great guy who was well liked and must respected for his work." This can be applied to many sexual abuses.
Perhaps the murderer lost the plot due to constant abuse by the victim.
I don't know anything; could be completely wrong, I appal violence in all its forms, including state sanctioned murder.
The dude spent over a quarter of an hour beating someone to death.
So much ew, from your comment! You freely state you don't know anything, yet leap to the conclusion that Poli was a serial abuser (because they were LGBTQ+ advocate?).
The judge dismissed that unsubstantiated notion because this was Poli! If there is one person in Tonga who could have had their pick of consensual lovers it was him. Angry meth-heads aren't as attractive as they think they are. Even if the voices in his head convinced the murderer that they were being hit on, this was a grotesquely disproportionate response!
The gossip is that ISFT was at a party of a cousin of Poli's and was going to drive to get more booze, while already being intoxicated. Poli happening to be around, sober, and; being the socially conscious sort he was, offered to drive him there instead (more out of regard for road safety than any affection for ISFT who was reportedly every kind of asshole about it).
What happened after that is impossible to say for certain, but ISFT seemed to be a frequent watcher of Evangelical TV (when they could focus their eyes enough), with all the homophobia that brings. Poli would have to have a self destructive urge that was never observed by anyone previously to want to stick his dick in that amount of crazy!
"What happened after that is impossible to say for certain, but ISFT seemed to be a frequent watcher of Evangelical TV (when they could focus their eyes enough), with all the homophobia that brings. "
And a heavy drug user by all accounts, with high drug intoxication at the time of the murder.
How did you get from this account the information to add: "Gender Essentialists" – which is, as you say, your reframing of "Gender Critical" to Evangelists, instead of more accurately stating: "Drug-Abusing Evangelist"?
You’ve made “Gender Essentialists” the noun, and evangelical only an adjective. A surmise not supported by the information you have provided.
Genuine question, as have so far been unable to get a coherent answer, what does the Q and + stand for?
Were your other questions not genuine then Molly? Well at least that saves me the bother of addressing them when I could be spending time with whānau.
L for Lesbian
G for Gay
B for Bi
T for Trans
Q for Queer
+ for all the others omitted from this initialism, because it is already too long. Say; Intersex; NonBinary; Culturally embedded names that are difficult to render exactly into English eg; Leitis & Takatāpui.
I used to argue for Q+ as being briefer. And (already being a broad term) not giving primacy to the LGB&T people of this loosely aligned cluster of communities (some of) which act in solidarity with each other. But the thrice damned Qanon cult put an end to that notion.
(All my questions are genuine in that I ask in the hopes I get a well reasoned response, but that does not often occur. So, I use that phrase to indicate to others that I would like a genuine answer.
Which you gave, thank you. I’ll work on the wording.
Perhaps “If you are willing, will you give a genuine answer to this question?” but that sounds clunky. Genuine question – do you have a suggestion?)
What does Queer mean that isn't covered by L, G and B?
Why do you think a support movement for L, G and B would add to its acronym a term that has such negative connotations historically for them to represent a group that they are not part of?
Still no definition of Queer BTW.
As for the +, surely most of your examples fit under the ever expanding T. Isn't it a form of cultural segregation to make the T applicable to a particular culture and put all the others in a +?
Intersex is another example of appropriation that has real world impacts.
"I used to argue for Q+ as being briefer. "
Might be briefer but a bit nonsensical in terms of providing support and assistance. Everyone has different challenges and needs.
LGB people are same-sex or both sex-attracted. It is their sexual orientation that categorises them.
TQ+ may or may not include LGB people, but are a a completely different category system. The changing focus of many original LGB organisations have actually eliminated LGB concerns or recognition from their work and activism. Many modern organisations don't even use the words same-sex attraction anymore. A very prominent one in the UK, has even likened same-sex attraction to sexual racism. So, to be honest the present LGBQT+ movement – for all intents and purposes just T activism, no matter how many letters and numbers are included. Latest iteration being 2SLGBTQ+.
Conflating all is like setting up a sporting organisation for rugby players, yachties, recreational knitters and calling it "Sportys".
Do you really think that the Mormons (not necessarily literal Church of LDS, more a common catch all term for Americanised Evangelists and their followers in te Moana Nui) care whether someone is gay or trans before judging them according to their own doctrine? Public whipping and 10years in prison is still the punishment (too rarely meted out for their preferences) for either crime. It was enough that Poli advocated for Leitis, it is irrelevant whether they were also; a trans man, eNBy, or had intimate relationships with Leitis, as well.
You quite evidently don't understand my mixed feelings, because I don't have them. I am unequivocally glad that the death penalty was not enacted. However some in the #justice forpoli circles are less sure of that, and I guess I have been accustomed to arguing against them in the past year to the extent that I do so preemptively nowadays.
It is actually quite hard to know the trans murder rate in Aotearoa. For one thing, until recently, most trans people have been misgendered on official documents and in court rooms. Often their families burn (or more rarely) bury them under names they have not used in years in spite of any wishes they may have expressed while yet living. I have been to too many memorials this past decade!
Take Zena Campbell for example – was she murdered in 2018? Not according to the courts, despite being strangled by her partner in an argument beforehand. But being a trans drug user with mental health issues the case didn't even reach trial.
Lots of trans people in NZ just disappear, but most weren't public figures so I am not going to mention any names here. Are they dead, overseas, starting over in another town – who can say? The police sure aren't (or haven't historically been) very interested in finding out.
But that is all ignoring all the far more common deaths by suicide. If your life is a constant stream of; abuse, abandonment, assault, and homelessness, then many make the arguably rational choice to end the misery. It is not for me, but I find it hard to condemn those who "take the easy way out".
Though they have taken their own lives, trans suicides have to my mind been murdered by a society that (even if it professes to not actually want them dead – because that might make them look bad, if nothing else) would really prefer that they didn't exist.
Fragility of mental health of people in the transgender community needs to be addressed. I believe it should be by professionals in the mental health and therapy professions that can explore the many different and diverse reasons an individual has for not being well.
An assumption that is is external society, is as harmful an assumption that it is not. Especially on an individual level, where many other factors come into play. Quality exploratory therapy would help here. Unfortunately, our Mental Health services are below par for all NZers in terms of access, and quality. Our high suicide rates are indicative of this failing.
Unfortunately, our Mental Health services are below par for all NZers in terms of access, and quality.
And the Herald, bless them, are on a mission to bring this to the fore…as if we needed to be told there was a crisis.
Our high suicide rates are indicative of this failing.
According to the above article,
The Royal College of GPs says about a third of doctors' visits are now related to mental health, while the number of calls to police for mental health problems, attempted suicides and suicides has risen – to an average of more than 200 recorded nationally every day in the past three months.
That needs to be said again…an average of more than 200 attempted suicides every day for the past three months. What the actual fuck?
How's the Wellbeing thing going Jacinda?
I have scanned a couple of the Herald articles in this series and have not read if any of these terribly sad and distressed people are trans, and if so it is because society that (even if it professes to not actually want them dead – because that might make them look bad, if nothing else) would really prefer that they didn't exist…that drove them to absolute despair.
Temp ORary might see this failure to focus on the mental distress of trans people as yet another example of society's rejection of that particular community's needs.
I'd like Temp ORary to to step back a little from trans issues and acknowledge there are a shitload of truly miserable people out here in the world and a suicidal person's gender fucking identity is most likely not the root cause of their despair.
Keep up the good work. 😉
Hey Rosemary. You too.
Thanks Temp. I wasn't able to open your 2 minute clip,so I was commenting on the link's about Poli's case you sent. If people in Tonga are being imprissoned for being Trans or gay, then that is 100% wrong and good for Poli for advocating about it. I hope they continue his work. Sad.
Zena Campbell was not the victim of murder, or so the judge thought having view the autopsy results. Her boyfriends case was dismissed.
Another reason why the Dept of Stats should be very careful about how it gathers it's imformation. We need good data around homicide and suicide. To date we don't have. The only research in NZ I trust is the Dunedin Multi disciplinary study. But I don't think they have released any info on this.
The Dundedin multi-disiplinary study has some critiques worth looking at. Particularly on how they recorded their violence statistics.
Link to study findings – US Department of Justice pdf:
Link to what I consider some valid criticisms:
Particularly in regards to the use of CTS. I'm repasting part of a comment I made on this in 2018:
Thanks Molly. Appreciate you posting
Temp Zena's boyfriend was arrested by the police and charged with her murder. The case got thrown out because of the findings of the autopsy as copied from the link I posted elsewhere on this thread.
Asphyxial signs were normally present after such a form of strangulation if it was prolonged enough to cause death, and Campbell did not show those signs, she said in her report.
Spark's post-mortem findings showed Campbell had methadone, oxazepam, Ritalin, alcohol and cannabis in her blood.
But you are free to disagree with the autopsy and the Judges decision to through this out of court.
A dangerous precedent alright!
This man needs to be extradited,otherwise it just signals NZ is a safe haven for people that do not want to defend themselves where alleged crimes are committed.
'Dangerous precedent': Kris Faafoi faces pressure from European, Australian politicians to stop extradition | Stuff.co.nz
So they are going to stop 501s
More like yet another example of our supreme court confirming our status as redneck backwater. Can you imagine the PC doing what our bunch of clowns at the SC have done? We're an international laughing stock.
I see there was a story on Stuff yesterday about a new bridge in the Manawatu. It was finished, ahead of schedule, early this year. However no one is allowed to use it because there is an agreement with the local Iwi to have a blessing, and an opening, in June. Meanwhile any vehicle that is larger than a small van has to take a long diversion that adds about 45 minutes to their trip.
Why can't we just let people use the bridge and have the official opening later. It certainly wouldn't be the first time that something sensible like that has been done. Then we could celebrate the fact that a piece of infrastructure was, miracle of miracles, finished ahead of the planned time.
Your saying NZTA should break their agreement?
It isn't NZTA. Try reading the story.
Sorry, my bad.
Your saying Waka Kotahi NZ Transport Agency should break their agreement?
Nope. You still don't appear to have read it. Some quotes from the story.
"Manawatū councillors have said the Rangitīkei council is responsible for the bridge remaining unused because it entered an agreement with local iwi that an opening ceremony would be held in June, and no traffic could pass until then."
"But Rangitīkei mayor Andy Watson said the Manawatū council managed the contract and had advised it was working to a June opening date."
""The June date was always part of the agreement that they entered into with Rangitīkei District Council with regard to iwi."
Whether it was Manawatu or Rangitikei or both Councils who are responsible appears to be in dispute but nobody is blaming NZTA.
I wonder if there is any central government agency which could possibly settle the dispute about who is the lead iwi negotiator out of the Manawatu and Rangitikei councils. Probably will have an NZ in the name, its a bridge so probably a Transport in there now if only we had that last letter.
Its a conundrum, NZT_.
Now of course if this agreement could be found it would have to be one of the parties to this agreement. Oh well, too bad nobody could possibly find such a document. I guess it will just have to wait for the agreed date.
I'm really wary of taking this story as the full picture.
For example, here in Auckland we had local board members blaming the delay of a community facility on the lack of local iwi approval for the park. This was said without any qualification, and received the usual grumbling and muttering in the attendees.
I spoke to the local iwi representatives, a couple of weeks later. At that time, they had received no request from council or any of their representatives about the aforementioned park.
While the local board member was accurate in stating that approval had not been given – he was also deliberately omitting that fact that approval had not yet been sought.
Council agreed with iwi that pou would be erected before the bridge opened.
There's a few questions that arise from that article:
There's a few more, including allowing Ngāti Hauiti to have time to arrange huis, and discuss the change. We wouldn't approach a councillor on a new development and expect a decision before it has been discussed at council meetings, why expect a statement from Ngāti Hauiti unless we know that huis have been held, and a decision made.
Iwi are often consulted when it suits and accommodated when their perspective fits into the proposal without too much bother. It is when agreements are publicly brushed aside in such a way that you see how much power they actually hold.
Lets just settle this, shall we? Those who pay have first say. The end.
Sorry, what is getting settled?
Good on Putin. He has followed the advice that Republican Senator George Aiken once gave to Lyndon Johnson about the Vietnam War. Just say that you have won!
“Declare the United States the winner and begin de-escalation.”—Senator George Aiken (R-VT) offering advice to President Lyndon Johnson on October 19, 1966 on how to handle the politics of reducing the U.S. commitment in Vietnam.
I see the Putin is, very sensibly in my view, doing exactly that with respect to Mariupol.
Just a pity that Lyndon hadn't done the same thing. The war in Vietnam could have been about 9 years shorter.
I'd forgotten that one by George W.
I wish Lyndon had tried it though. It would have saved me a lot of time getting involved in protests, and more importantly a hell of a lot of lives of the people involved on both sides of the war.
Putin (and Zelensky) clearly need to be given the Nobel Peace prize. That's the shortest way out as on awarding the Nobel Peace prize to Henry Kissinger (and Le Duc Tho) for a ceasefire in 1973 the Vietnam war ended in 1975.
I wonder which of them would play the Le Duc Tho role and decline the award?
Be a great idea though if it would persuade Putin to pull out of Ukraine wouldn't it? Surely we can find a New Zealand MP to nominate them. Or perhaps we could talk Lloyd Geering into doing it. He's apparently eligible to do so and at 104 ought to be the oldest nominator.
Here's a young Russian POW in Ukraine talking about how he got there. There's proof of who he is in his own you tube channel (linked in the link).
An enormous clusterfuck, that's all the attempt on Kiev was. There's no 4D chess going on, no special move going to surface. No mastermind, no master strategy. Putin's a fucking idiot and so is his fan club.
Certainly a costly CF.
What happens when the truth starts to dawn on these Russian people. Will they apologise for their stupidity or hang on to their brainwashed beliefs? The latter I suspect. They are no different to our own stupid people who disappear down rabbit -holes and refuse to accept reality.
I mourn just as much for those young Russian soldiers as I do the Ukrainians who are being needlessly killed to satisfy the desires of a bunch of power hungry psychopaths in the Kremlin.
And the power hungry psychopaths in the whitehouse dont you think
Who would believe these fantasys any more than we would believe russia's 'estimates ??
Thanks DB. All so sad for everyone, even the Mom.
Trucks rolling up on and loading up from appliance stores.
Had never even fired his weapon.
Training consisted of a long walk with body armor on.
Rounding up citizens and putting them in basements.
Looting personal apartments.
Poorly supplied (implies Ru thought it would simply take Kiev and resupply there).
No idea where he was, or why, or what he was doing.
Tank gets hit. Lays off to the side in shock listening to commanders screams till they stopped.
Asks for help. Is surprised he is not murdered, tortured, or his balls roast on a tanks grill. Gets fed, gets to phone mother. Was (unwitting, and seemingly witless) part of Bucha massacre.
Mother a blathering indoctrinated idiot.
They should get his DNA, he's also holding back.
I'm glad I wrote some of the content out before youtube blocked it.
Some legality around POW's? Social media, it's the algorithms dunnit, not us!
He also witnessed a commander saying he’d taught a wounded Ukrainian ‘to fly’ (tossed him out an eight story window).
In case we’re feeling sentimental for Pootie pie.
Does Poots have a fifth column problem?
Also five Russian enlistment offices have been set on fire (so far).
Have to say this looks like a massive own goal by the Government.
Tamati Coffey introduced The Rotorua District Council Representative Arrangements Bill. Restructuring RDC into non-proportional Maori wards (resulting in more Maori councillors than is proportionate to the general population).
National and Act have made hay, of course. However, there have been very significant left politicians and ex-politicians who have come out strongly against it (in the submissions process). And a public storm has been ignited (tens of thousands of submissions, I understand)
And, now David Parker, with his Attorney General's hat on – has said it's discriminatory under the Bill of Rights.
Regardless of the pros and cons – Labour really needed to have resolved this in-house, before the legislation was introduced. [Yes, I know that's what select committees are for – but for politically sensitive bills – they need to be run by the lawyers first….]
Finally, after 200+ years of colonisation, we hear these words. Long may it continue.
Given it's been effectively depth-charged by Parker – it's not likely to continue at all.
Today is Earth Day.
Would be great if everyone, treated every day, as Earth Day.