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Open Mike 12/12/2018

Written By: - Date published: 5:49 am, December 12th, 2018 - 209 comments
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209 comments on “Open Mike 12/12/2018 ”

  1. swordfish 1

    Scrutinizing Jane Clifton’s claims as an exemplar of the current Media Orthodoxy

    In which i take serious issue with key claims made by Jane Clifton (Politics column in the latest edition of the Listener ‘For Whom the Polls Tell’ December 15 2018) and, by extension, with an entirely fallacious Media consensus on National’s supposedly “remarkable” Poll ratings this year:

    Daily Review 11/12/2018

    I do wish senior journalists would cease:

    (a) mindlessly regurgitating young David Farrar

    (b) cheerfully & unashamedly interviewing their own typewriters

    • James 1.1

      I always enjoy your poll post swordfish.

      Missed last nights one so thanks for the link.

      • Cinny 1.1.1

        +1 Thanks Swordfish you do incredible work re the polls and stat’s etc etc. Very much appreciated by many.

        • ianmac

          Me too thanks swordfish. Actually I think that your research is far more deserving of words like “amazing, phenomenal, herculean, …”
          Specially note that the Right is National without other Right partners except Seymour.

    • Morrissey 1.2

      Jane Clifton? Vacuousness personified.


      [OK, Morrissey. Enough pointless and unwarranted attacks on women in the media. Take a week off and have a good think about how to critique media without resorting to misogyny. Back next Thursday. TRP]

      • OnceWasTim 1.2.1

        It’s a hard row sometimes when trying to fight curmudgeonhood @ Morry eh?
        In case you hadn’t noticed – it is a new era
        And especially when confronted by complete fucking muppetry by those anxious to maintain their veneer and what they perceive is their social status , and more especially when they’re operating within a bubble (just as you are – and me for that matter).
        Try and catch my idol (Kim) this Saturday coming, while you’re having a lay down – she might even read out some Moz feedback.
        In the meantime, watch a fashion show like parliament (you’ll need to watch rather than just listen) and learn to laugh – there’s enough gNat/Act material in there for a comedy TV series if you could get NuZull on Ear funding

    • mpledger 1.3

      I am the samish age as David Farrar and it’s nice to be thought of as young.

  2. James 2

    Everybody said this would happen. Yet Jacinda said she hoped it wouldn’t.

    Seems everyone except Jacinda was right.


    It was so bloody obvious.

    Jacinda – making it harder and more expensive for renters.

    • bwaghorn 2.1

      At least renters don’t have to find a big lump sum up front .
      So more expensive na it’s not.

      • James 2.1.1

        It’s piss poor financial understanding like yours that people get into financial trouble with “no payment deals” and the like.

        Let me try and help you,,,,

        You don’t have to pay up front (you are right there).

        But you pay it off over a year with higher rents.

        But at the end of the year the rents don’t go down. So you keep paying more.

        Stay 18 months and you have paid 50% extra.

        Stay 2 years and you have paid double.

        That’s not a good deal despite not paying up front.

        It’s was obvious – but seems it fools some people

        • David Mac

          Yes, I agree. It is a tenant’s letting fee repayment plan with no end date.

          Property Managers will retain the first week’s rent and after the add-on to the rent has covered the proxy letting fee the benefit will revert to the owner.

          Property managers are going to have to present an accompanying benefit to owners when they advise them: “We’re keeping the first week’s rent.”

        • Ankerrawshark

          What’s your solution James to the excessive rents people are paying? Or do you think that is ok?

          • BM

            “Excessive rents” are merely a reflection of what a house is worth.

            Just say I owned a house worth 600k, 500k of that was the mortgage.

            I’d have to charge at least $480 dollars a week to just cover the interest payments on the mortgage

            Add on to of that rates, insurance, maintenance, letting fees, a bit of profit etc and you can see why rent is so high.

            For rents to come down the price of housing needs to fall, unfortunately, Kiwi Buy has stopped that, because Tywford is now underwriting property developers by buying their developments he’s created an artificial price point in the market.

            That’s it, while Kiwi buy exists in its current form, this is as cheap as it gets

            The solution is to lower the cost of land, the cost of materials, the cost of labour and the cost of compliance.

            • Muttonbird

              It’s your choice to own a rental with just 17% equity.

              • BM

                Ok, using the current LVR of 35% you’d still need of a 400k loan to buy a 600,000k home.

                Still around $420 a week just for interest.

                • Tricledrown

                  For Auckland and Queenstown those prices are cheap but as you point out if a new landlord is in property for profit it only makes sense if there is a decent capital gain existing landlords will be questioning the returns on capital especially if prices start falling. That’s why most landlords like National doing nothing or very little to solve housing shortage. It creates a speculative bubble.

              • SaveNZ

                It is a landlords choice Muttonbird to own a rental, and my guess is that less and less people will want to own one (in the 1990’s it was encouraged by government because they told everybody that NZ could not afford pensions in the future and so they should start saving now and that encouraged the drive of ‘mums and dads’ owning rentals and the surplus of them which led to a decent supply and lower rents).

                Now the message from government is not to own a rental, and everyone should be an owner occupier, so a certain percentage of landlords will sell up and the government is not exactly adding shit loads of state houses or new rentals but going for the sales models…. this is because they believe in trickle down, aka if they increase supply then this will trickle down into lower rents… but again increasing supply is a waste of time if your demand is also increasing through immigration or gold bricks investors who don’t necessarily have to rent the property.

                To stem the gold bricks they will have to bring in more laws about empty houses and then start to police the rentals if they are empty or not, so it’s getting more and more complicated for everyone, when government could do some quick easy fixes, see at little cost which would do a lot more to help straight away as well as build houses just for state house renting while allowing the market to do the more middle class to luxury side which they are already preferring to do anyway.

                I also thing that anybody owning over 5 houses/land or having shares in a company with houses/land over 5 titles should be taxed a bit more, aka 1/2 percent of their worth, etc. This will encourage people not to ‘hog’ houses and those that do are rightly identified as a land business and should pay a tax on it to stem housing shortages or land banking.

                Likewise a stamp duty on houses, assets and land over 5 million dollars.

                This is much fairer and more profitable than capital gains and will do the same thing but on steroids while not effecting the middle class at all. In fact will lower prices as people don’t hog assets.

                Again if NZ and the world bought in laws to challenge the super rich and not the middle to upper class that people aspire to, then governments would be much more popular and inequality would diminish as the super rich were taxed more on land/asset banking assets.

            • SaveNZ

              @BM, If we look at what you want historically when have we ever had over decades the cost of land going down? (pretty much never unless something is wrong with it) the cost of materials going down (hardly ever and generally for the same reason aka some is wrong with it (asbestos) or it is advanced by something newer and better, the cost of labour traditionally also does not fall (although historically in line with expenses it has) and the cost of compliance, (judging by Auckland council increasing their consent costs and investing ratepayers money into America’s cup and stadiums etc, not likely to come down, new scam is to make the consumers pay for it over decades).

              So my take home of that is, new tech might help[ make buildings cheaper, labour has already fallen in real terms but due to the amount of subcontractors we are actually paying a fortune over multiple companies for poor skills and the middle men are making a significant profit, so that needs to change back to the old model of one contractor one building, and until the councils are forced to go back to their knitting and spend the rates on running council services and not being amateur investors and charities for their pet projects, and also get much better skilled and highly trained building inspectors and planners, then compliance costs will not go down.

              What they can change, is incomes going up. Which is why we have a huge problem at present aka the cost of living is out of kilter with many people’s incomes.

              P>S> When the Natz forced through the zoning changes to allow much greater density, guess what, land prices went through the roof. So whatever great ideas these politicians are having. please take a seat and don’t fiddle.

              The best thing for government to do, is to build shit loads of small but well built state houses themselves with no middlemen and then rent them out with reduced rents which over time will be cash positive. Leave the private sector alone. Any help has so far done the opposite of it’s supposed intentions.

              They could over night solve a lot of the affordable housing crisis, by allowing people to convert existing multiple level houses into a flat by allowing a kitchen to make a granny flat. Then it only costs someone about $10k to create another unit, and they are then happy with a small rent of a few hundred dollars which is what many people can only afford these days and is now in Auckland the cost of a single room.

      • SaveNZ 2.1.2

        If more people were renting state houses, there are no letting fees.

    • Cinny 2.2

      James, one can’t solely blame the PM for the greed of some landlords and letting agencies.

      We had an agency look after the property in Welly, that didn’t last long, they were USELESS especially considering what they charged us.

      That was Quinovic, back in 2002.

      • James 2.2.1

        Did you read the link ?

        We can blame Jacinda for ignoring all the advise and common sense and progressing on “hope” despite everyone saying she was wrong.

        And wouldn’t you know it – looks like she was wrong and renters are worse off for it.

        • Cinny

          Sure did read it.

          Newshub has obtained a letter from a rental agency urging landlords to raise rents by $10 a week to cover the cost

          Did you that….Some rental agencies exploit both tenants and landlords.

          Anyways I see that judith is coming out against this move by the government. So naturally you will be on her side no matter what. Your loyalty is endearing.

        • Ankerrawshark

          It’s going to take many years to turn around the housing crisis that got sooo much worse under national who did nothing to try and address it

      • SaveNZ 2.2.2

        I find it weird that letting agencies have escaped with no regulation on them like every other body has in this country. Maybe part of our renting woes, also stems from the idea that any one seems to be able to set up shop as a letting agent, and when things go wrong the landlord is the one in the firing line who probably had no clue what was going on? Real Estate agents have a body you can complain to, whereas nothing for letting agents if they are in breach of their duty or acting illegally very hard to quickly hold them to account and they are in a position of power and holding keys to people’s houses…

        • SaveNZ

          Letting agents also have substantial amounts of money going through their books and often the landlords are quite elderly and have no clue what is going on. If there are discrepancies then it goes to highly expensive court proceedings… the meth tests are a case where hundreds of thousands of dollars were at the mercy of letting agents views on meth contamination or not and had the power to call in on any ‘private’ companies. But even day to day, the amount of rents going through their books is high and the agents are not exactly trained or vetted very well. All that money is a temptation.

          These are a lot of frauds being prosecuted from real estate, so highly likely that similar fraud is going on for letting agents but they are just not being caught or it is too much money and effort to prosecute the letting fraudsters because there is not clear pathway to do it.

    • solkta 2.3

      I can’t see that this will make a big difference. There will be no cost to recoup until a new tenant is needed but it is commonplace to review the rent anyway when re-renting a property, and most landlords will already set this at what they think the market can deliver.

    • Andre 2.4

      Are you suggesting that property managers are currently failing to look after their clients’ interests by collaborating in setting rents at lower than what the market will bear?

      • ianmac 2.4.1

        Damn. That’s $80 earned by James from 8 replies.

        • Andre

          It’s worth it for the opportunity to show up those that usually claim *the market sets the price* as just shilling for rich people when they claim landlords will put up rents because one of their costs has just gone up.

      • SaveNZ 2.4.2

        @ Andre, it is pretty much a given that certain unscrupulous agents were under renting properties to get the tenants in and get their letting fee, then increasing the rents within 6 months of the tenants paying the letting fees…

      • SaveNZ 2.4.3

        @ Andre, 2.4, Yes some agents defiantly are because say you have a $500 p/w house to rent. The rental agent only gets about 7% of that aka $35 p/w so the big money of $500 + GST is nice to get as an xtra bonus. Even better if there is a dispute at the tenancy tribunal then the landlord pays the letting agent to attend. A percentage is added to repairs also. So when places are relet or there are problems the letting agents get extra fees.

    • millsy 2.5

      The fact is, James, letting fees were just too much of a burden for poor people to pay. Especially when it is the policy of WINZ not to pay letting fees.

      • David Mac 2.5.1

        Initially, yes but WINZ have advanced complete move-in monies including letting fees for some years. Average Joe tax payer getting it in the neck again. No assistance for his letting fee and his taxes pay the letting fees for those that qualify for Govt assistance.

        • te reo putake

          I think you’ll find those advances have to be paid back, David. They are loans, not grants.

          • David Mac

            This from the Awhina site:

            Bond Grant
            WINZ can make a non-recoverable (you don’t have to pay it back) contribution to your bond or rent in advance. They’ll look at how much your bond or rent in advance is and you’ll need to show you can afford the rent payments in the future. There are income or cash asset limits placed on who can qualify for bond grants.

            Letting fees assistance
            Sometimes rental agencies will charge a ‘letting fee’ for securing a place to live. If you are having trouble paying this letting fee you can apply to Work and Income for assistance. You don’t need to be receiving a benefit or pension to apply for financial assistance up to the cost of one week’s rent, plus GST. You can only use letting fees assistance once a year, but it doesn’t need to be paid back. There are income or cash asset limits on who can qualify for letting fees assistance.

            Rent in Advance
            Rent in Advance is a non-recoverable (you don’t have to pay it back) payment towards your rent if your needs qualify you. There are income or cash asset limits on who can qualify for Rent in Advance.


    • McFlock 2.6


      rental agency urges landlords to raise rents above market rates in order to keep income stream.

      The landlords who do not follow this “urge” will find their places easier to rent.

      I thought you liked market forces?

    • Frankie and Benjie 2.7

      The article you link to has “could” in the title and it contains “maybe”‘s and “seemingly” etc . There is no proof that rents have gone up.
      “Everyone” includes me. I didn’t say rents would go up.
      Rents may go up for many reasons. They may come down! I bet you won’t give praise to Jacinda if that happens. You’ll say it was due to other factors. It will be hard to tell if this change gets passed on to renters or not. Letting hopefully doesn’t happen once a year as is implied by $10 per week suggested.
      I’m guessing some regions rents won’t go up. So increases (if any happen) will be due to other factors…

  3. Observer Tokoroa 3

    It is so Gross – beyond Measure

    There in the Jail House this morning is the Kiwi Murderer of a young Woman waiting for his breakfast – as if he deserved it. He will await for three comfortable meals each day.

    While his snappy Lawyer will be wiggling and manipulating reasons and excuses to smother the crime, and explain the Dreadful Tragedy away. For the Lawyer and the Murderer will blame anything and anybody but themselves in the so called “fair trial”.

    It is said that most women in NZ do not report the Grim Rape they suffer, because the lugubrious Barrister and his companions will destroy what is left of her self esteem. Rape is rampant here. Absolutely Rampant.

    The Lawyer Brutes will pat themselves on the back for having persuaded Judge and Jury that the raped woman “had it coming to her”. There will be celebrations in Chambers later, over their legal brilliance – and discussions about how pretty the young woman was.

    You don’t believe me ? Ask the women in Chambers – throughout New Zealand !. Sex is the PAVLOVA of NZ Lawyers. We do not realise that the real Whores are numerous predator kiwi men – in all sectors. We never face up to it.

    We must not allow the snappy smart Lawyer to divert and tarnish the Course of Justice this time. They have done that far too often – over so many days and years and decades

    Grace – in her lasting silence – will draw the true graphic of every cowardly evil kiwi male, for now and for decades, and centuries to come. She has done so much for Kiwi Women. So so much. Grace has displayed our Male Evil.

  4. Kay 4

    I am horrified and disgusted that Epilepsy New Zealand has asked Bill English (yes, that one) to become their patron, and that he accepted. Apparently they feel his “mana” will help in raising their profile.

    Many people with epilepsy by necessity are on benefits. English’s views on this subject are a matter of record as are what the Nats did to us for 9 years, and the deliberate suffering his Government inflicted on people with disabilities, alongside the cuts to health services funding; this guy is directly complicit in doing a great deal of harm to disabled people in NZ. There is no reason to believe that, just because he is no longer an MP his ideology has changed one iota.

    So the national organisation who as part of their brief are suppose to advocate for people with epilepsy approach an ex-PM with a track record of openly despising the disabled as non-productive economic units (aka lowest form of life and drain on the hard working tax payer) and offer him the patronage. Brilliant.

    • millsy 4.1

      Don’t forget English’s hand in the slashing of reigonal health services in the 1990’s.

    • greywarshark 4.2

      English makes caring noises. Like the bird call on Radionz. He also makes a big deal of how Catholic he is, and might be expected to have some moral concern for needy people. Epilepsy NZ are desperate for some action and gone to the heart of the National Party. I hope they have found one there that is not diseased beyond recovery.

      • Kay 4.2.1

        @grey, I’m wondering if someone high up was star struck by the ‘Knight of the Realm’ bit? Or this being NZ, more than likely knows him personally hence the approach.

        I’ve been thinking a lot about the roles of ex-MPs/PMs on boards etc. Boards are one thing- often the business/charity corresponds quite well with the idelogical leanings of the ex-politician. We’re not surprised seeing Key on the ANZ board, I’d have no problem with ex-Green MPs on conservation-related charity boards.

        But in a situation like this political neutrality is called for, and necessary. And the Patron’s past actions have to be scrutinised for suitablity. A few years back the ENZ patron was the sitting Governor General, which was perfectly reasonable. Our version of Royal patronage, but whatever your views there, politically neutral.

      • SaveNZ 4.2.2

        @greywarshark, these days the Natz are more interested in receiving donations than making them so not sure Bill will generate much charity.

      • Gabby 4.2.3

        I suspect he’s a ‘the poor will always be with us’ catholic.

      • McFlock 4.2.4

        I’m sure that now he’s no longer relevant he will be tireless in improving the lives of people with disabilities and chronic conditions. 🙄

    • SaveNZ 4.3

      @ Kay, the start to his Knighthood maybe, since I’m not sure he has ever done anything charitable before, maybe he needs to have something charitable on his CV to justify the “honour”?

      • greywarshark 4.3.1

        English has appeared to be on the charitable line to RWs with his talk of social investment and a new way of doing welfare. He and his wife seem hard-line Catholic and I think against abortion which goes with that. It suits such people to be engaged with charities that are not connected with behaviour not validated by their value models, drugs, sex, weaknesses of the human condition as they see them. So epilepsy, the blind are likely outlets for any kind concerns they have.

        • SaveNZ

          probably right, greywarshark, God made them an epileptic or blind so they are ok and not sinners like others needing charity. sarcasm.

    • Rosemary McDonald 4.4

      “…an ex-PM with a track record of openly despising the disabled as non-productive economic units (aka lowest form of life and drain on the hard working tax payer) and offer him the patronage.”

      “As examples he cites work being done at Housing New Zealand and specifically at the Ministry of Social Development by the welfare working advisory group looking at the big driver of future costs: long-term invalids and sickness beneficiaries, a group he describes as “this big hard lump of long-term waste of human potential”.

      English says the MSD is not set up to deal with them.

      Rather, it is set up to deal with “the easy stuff” – the unemployment and the domestic purposes benefits.

      “They do the easy stuff and they do it very well, but they don’t worry about these guys. If they were ACC customers, we would be spending a lot of money on trying to move them. ”

      ACC ‘moved’ hundreds, perhaps thousands of clients from its books and dumped them onto Social Development and Health.

      And then what happens to those who can’t be ‘cured’, ‘fixed’, ‘rehabilitated’????


      “How did the Nazis see disabled people?
      The Nazis took Darwin’s ideas of natural selection, in particular the idea of survival of the fittest in the animal kingdom, and applied them to the human world and society (Darwin’s Origin of the Species had been published in 1859). It was argued that allowing disabled people to live and have children, led to the “unfit” reproducing more quickly than “the fit”. It was said that this weakened society’s ability to function efficiently, placing an unnecessary toll on non-disabled people.

      The Nazis claimed that the social and economic problems that Germany experienced in the 1920s and early 1930s were due in part to the weakening of the population created by an unfair burden.”

      • Kay 4.4.1

        I rest my case Rosemary.
        I’m seriously considering taking this to the media to try and get this made more known (I don’t do social media). I have a reporter I’m thinking of as somewhere to start, if you have any suggestions please let me know?

        • Rosemary McDonald

          I get totally why you have an issue with Bill ‘the lizard’ English being a Patron of a charity advocating for those with a health condition/disability. While he may not actually be in charge of the hen house , having him sitting atop the structure as some kind of figurehead is plain wrong. And it’s hard to put into words why.

          Epilepsy New Zealand must think Bill as pulling power (oh what an image that conjures!) and have chosen him pragmatically…it gives them some credibility, authority?

          In my mind there are a number of organisations and individuals who have been active in the health and disability ‘sector’ over the past 10-20 years (snouts firmly in the trough of neoliberal policy generated government funding) who should, were we actually committed to shucking off the nefarious policies and practices of the past 20 years, be consigned to the dustbin where all the enablers belong.

          Happy they have been to take the government coin and pretend advocacy, while those in need of that advocacy drift further into the margins. These charities will claim that it is better to be sitting at the table with the policy makers…that compromise is required to facilitate change.

          I cry bullshit to that. And you know all too well Kay that there has been no meaningful improvement for those with long term health and disability needs.
          And we see no hope of any meaningful improvement in the near future as those enablers of the past decade or so still claim exclusive rights to the ears of the politicians and policy makers. (I am indulging in a little transference here as this is what seems to be happening right this minute with the review of the family care policy.)

          There are some good journalists out there doing sterling work, and the likes of me who scour the net for such articles will read them. As for the wider ‘community’? I don’t know…I’m feeling a bit like a stranger in a strange land at the moment. https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2018/11/17/feeling-like-a-stranger-in-a-familiar-land/

          “Remember when Jacinda said she was a pragmatic idealist? In Sam’s letter to Eugenie, he has an answer for that. He quotes, ‘when the law is subject to pragmatism then the firm foundations on which we set our society turn to sand’ and that ‘pragmatism and compromise are corrosive elements that most threaten the architecture of democracy’. Elsewhere online, pragmatism, it is said, ‘reflects with almost disarming candour, the spirit of the prevailing business culture’, (Max Horkheimer); ‘Pragmatism contains nothing but sophistry and illusion’, (David Hume); ‘It is the attitude of looking away from first things, principles, ‘categories’, supposed necessities, and of looking toward last things, fruits, consequences and facts’ (William James). Idealism and pragmatism are almost incompatible.”

        • veutoviper

          Kirsty Johnson NZ Herald

          @kirsty_johnston (Twitter account)

          Impressive investigative work in a number of areas including health – eg Ashley Peacock.


          Mind you Rosemary may have other views as she has had personal experience of Kirsty. Articles on Rosemary and Peter are amongst those in the above link.

          • Rosemary McDonald

            Yes, Kirsty does good work and has been a constant friend on disability issues.

            If I look like a reluctant participant in that piece it was because I was a reluctant participant. Not because of Kirsty, but because I felt it was more important for Peter to have his say and have centre stage, as often the voice of the person with the disability is lost. (I was also being peripherally distracted by a mate and her mate who were having problems, as homeless people, with the local council.)

            It will be interesting to see if Kirsty does a follow up article if this government fails to honour its promise to repeal the Part 4 amendment to the Public Health and Disability Act and dispose of the iniquitous Funded Family Care.

            • veutoviper

              Thanks for that Rosemary. And fully understand what you said re Peter needing to be centre stage. Wanted to defer to your personal experience, but I have considerable respect for Kirsty, despite her young age! (From an oldie, LOL)

              Jess McAllen is also superb in the mental health area, particular for young people. But don’t think disability is her focus.

          • Kay

            VV, thanks for the suggestion. I’ve always liked Kirsty’s work.

            I haven’t been this furious about something for a very long time (which is saying a lot given how much there is to be angry about, I just don’t tend to have the energy anymore!) so am trying the outsourcing approach 🙂 Unfortunately for very good reasons I still can’t use my real name in connection to this topic publicly- active discrimination is alive and kicking in NZ and there would be serious consequences for me- so I can but try to get to get this information out by other means.

      • greywarshark 4.4.2

        It sounds as if English would like to take the disabled people and churn them from one welfare management group to another so they can’t take the easy way out ‘playing the victim’. I would think that is at the base of his thinking though he would not explicitly say that. Though I think he has come close if he has actually been documented as saying things referred to in your comment.

        It’s using capitalist, neo lib thinking, and the fact that he claims religion and Catholicism doesn’t make any difference because religions have been been friends with capitalism for ever. If Maori can hold on to their belief *’He Tangata, He Tangata, – the people are the core of everything – we may be able to save the nation’s soul. Otherwise it’s hard work making headway and its getting wrinkled like a raisin. But then even small and wrinkled raisins can be sweet, so we must just try and stop these moves to monetise everything. Nazis get mentioned because the Holocaust was so scary, now organ taking from unaethetised persons in China. It’s hard to cope. Hold onto that soul, it’s the meaning of life.

        *This is an expression taken from a Maori proverb that ponders. He aha te mea nui o te ao, he tangata he tangata he tangata. The meaning roughly translates as What is the most important thing in the world, it is the people, the people, the people.

  5. Molly 5

    Some of the more recent comments on TS refer to the Dunedin Longitudinal Study on domestic violence, which I have unsuccessfully been trying to access online.

    I have looked to the search page on the Otago University website, and the closest I can come to what seems to be an indication of higher female violence is perhaps the 1998 study – “Physical assault in New Zealand: the experience of 21 year old men and women in a community sample”.

    The other studies seem to indicate otherwise: “Physical assault among 21-year-olds by partners”

    Do any of the commentators who reference that study, know the name and/or have a link to an accessible copy online?

    • WeTheBleeple 5.1

      Unfortunately, in our village, the guy who didn’t ‘tune up’ his wife was considered unusual. I was a big fan of Mrs K*****, her husband came home after drinking, tried to hit her, got a black eye and a night out cold on the porch for his trouble.

      The ladies used to comment how distinguished and handsome Mr K***** was. But not after that night. He was a bitch slapped schmuck.

      She was my secret hero.

      Bit off topic. From where/when I grew up, the real figures for domestic abuse possibly > 90%. The official figures were probably much less. Everyone was scared, nobody talked about it. The men laughed at their antics over beer.

      • Molly 5.1.1

        Thanks, WeTheBleeple.

        If you don’t mind, did that experience while you were young emerge at any time when you began to form relationships with partners? That is, did you have moments where you deliberately chose another way, or were you lucky enough to escape unscathed emotionally?

        I’m interested in having a look at the study because it is referenced very often on discussions on gender in NZ. From the looks of it is relates to a group of 21 year olds in Dunedin all part of a longitudinal study, and would be unlikely to have a lot of the later pressures of supporting children, and accompanying money issues. Also, don’t know whether the demographic would reflect the NZ demographic in terms of income, education and ethnicity.

        There have also been indications that the study referred to used the CTS (Conflict Tactics Scales). The Wikipedia page states that:

        “CTS is one of the most widely criticized domestic violence measurement instruments due to its exclusion of context variables and motivational factors in understanding acts of violence. The National Institute of Justice cautions that the CTS may not be appropriate for IPV research “because it does not measure control, coercion, or the motives for conflict tactics.”

        Use of CTS would count your Mrs K’s violence as equal to Mr K, without acknowledging that it was a response to previous and intended violence against her.

        I would think that would be an important consideration to include when looking at patterns of violence in an effort to reduce it – valuable for both men and women looking to change societal behaviour.

        • WeTheBleeple

          I hit my first partner at age 16. I was horrified at myself. It has not repeated I sought help anger management and counsel around drinking too much. She threw the first punch, but no excuse. There is a woman down the road from me gives her man a hiding when they drink. He finally left after many years of it.

          I resolved issues with men with fist fights. I learned black and white thinking so compromise was unheard of. That behavior stayed till almost my 30’s. University education was the biggest turnover in my life I reckon. It helped me to think critically, to listen, to be wrong… and the counselors there, taught me its ok to be wrong. I used to get 99% in school and get a hiding for not trying hard enough…

          Very hard to talk of, it’s putting yourself up for more abuse by people who don’t understand what it’s like being trapped in a cycle of crazy. I’m aspergers, PTSD, a general clusterf*** of disastrous childhood happenings… But I pulled myself up (with help).

          The victim shit stops here. I’m responsible today. I can snap at people online but that’s as violent as it gets.

          My sisters all chose abusive partners. Then a string of them. We were all damaged, us, the strangers we met…

          The fact women return many times to abusive partners shows just how psychologically damaging it is. To go back to that your self worth is just gone.

          Terrible state of affairs deeply afflicting our nation.

          It must be nigh on impossible for many men to do what I just did. Now let’s see how people react.

          • Molly

            Any response seems inadequate to your comment, WeTheBleeple, but I do value your honesty in sharing, and think it is of immense value to have these discussions in the open. Thanks seem so trite in this case, but I’ll offer it in absence of anything better to mind, Thank you.

            I have a very dear friend that was brought up in a chaotic household and community who found an alternative choice through dedicated nursing practice and service in the armed forces, but this came at a cost of relationship disconnect with family members and others in her community. Although her family members had chaotic lives and made destructive choices, they were still her family – and loved – and because of her choices she was effectively “out of the loop” and ridiculed. That is, until situations occurred that required self-sacrifice and sustained effort solutions – when she was hooked back into the fold to sort the problems out.

            What I admired – and still admire – about her, was her ability to continue to love without judgement and take opportunities when offered to improve the lives of her family members. Such a deft and sincere human response, when dealing with other people.

            “I used to get 99% in school and get a hiding for not trying hard enough…” The effect of this was probably amplified by the self-critical trait of those with ASD, who are often perfectionists. I’m on the spectrum myself, and healthy self-examination has been a big help. Not only to me, but those in my life.

            Perhaps your contribution is important because it shows that both environmental and individual choices can be considered in regards to solutions, it is not an either/or scenario.

            And it is important to have these conversations in context, and to discuss violence without seeking simple solutions – when perhaps complex ones are required and will be more effective.

            Apart from the counselling and support services, did you find any particular studies at university level helped?

            • WeTheBleeple

              Emotional illiteracy is part of the problem I’m sure. We express ourselves with fists unable to display passion in a more appropriate manner.

              Check this comics opening minute. On point.

              • Molly

                “Look what you made me do!
                One of those phrases that I found myself saying in my early parenting years almost automatically. Thankfully managed to have some form of self-awareness there and stopped, now only have to work on the many other unworthy techniques – hopefully before they all move out.

              • greywarshark

                That is an amazing performance. Haven’t finished watching it though. I have to go and look for my secret stash axshually.

              • gsays

                Spot on.

                ” ..a night owl .. which, by the way, is just an owl..”

            • WeTheBleeple

              I missed that last question: Apart from the counselling and support services, did you find any particular studies at university level helped?

              Te Ao Maori was amazing. Gave me white guilt for a bit but it also gave me some history and understanding of NZ, and what I perceived as casual racism everywhere – it’s called institutionalized racism so I learned. I also immediately identified with Kaitiakitanga.

              The Tertiary Foundations Certificate was quite brilliant. I’d dropped out by form 3 so needed catch-up. But it was the other adult students in that program gave me some peers to walk the journey with. Some of them had it pretty rough too. Having support is so important. Also, having someone to support. I guess I learned community.

              We were there to give ourselves another chance. We lost a few on the way, one went back to stripping, another to the dole… but most of us graduated.

              I wasn’t in engineering but biology, so my peers were for the most part non racist, non sexist, highly intelligent, and from all over the world. I was in heaven.

              • Molly

                Thanks, WTB.

                “Having support is so important. Also, having someone to support. I guess I learned community.”

                I honestly believe that if a stated outcome and effective implentation of creating healthy communities was a priority with government, many solutions would be found for the problems we face on an individual, family, community and national level.

          • Puckish Rogue

            I got nothing to add but I appreciate the honesty of what you’ve written

    • SaveNZ 5.2

      I am not sure Grace death is domestic (family) violence, because they had just met on a dating app, aka they only met each other a few hours before her death by the sounds of it? It is a separate crime to family violence.

      • Molly 5.2.1

        Hi SaveNZ, I wasn’t referring to the Grace Millane case.

        Just have had some discussions lately with people referring to this study, and wanted to find an online accessible one to see what the study actually was about.

        • SaveNZ

          @ Molly, sorry wasn’t sure, but the MSM are now full of family violence and anti shit men, due to the Grace case. While there is validity of being angry, blaming all men probably isn’t the right solution. They needed to clean up family violence decades ago, instead they just do little to nothing and I am not sure that keeping men in prison on remand or the new strangulation law is justice is the right place to start. Prevention is always the best way and NZ is catapulting into a very punitive and US style society rather than early prevention, aka the boys at school and teaching them better ways to think about women when they are forming their views on gender.

          Also boys that grow up feeling disempowered deal with the in a variety of often very anti social ways.

          Men top the suicide rates and many statistics. Men commit harm to themselves, men commit harm to others.

          Either way, if there are ways to prevent it, and society should be concerned about it, and not just trying to profit from it, have talkfests about it, bury statistics or not take detailed ones from people who are experts in it, or react too late to tragedy.

          • Molly

            Many feminists recognise the harm that society places on men.

            But there have been many comments on TS lately, that seem to jump to great generalisations and have intimated that female perpetrated violence is ignored by all feminists, court decisions, and society. They often refer to the Dunedin study, which is why I wanted to have a look.

            Your first response is a case in point. I have asked for a link and you have responded with two comments that are not in line with that request, the latter being a list of statements (that I do not disagree with) but with the focus only on the harm to men.

            As someone who has always appreciated the value of male companionship in her life, who values the male partner in her life, and the mother of three sons, I am aware of the pressures on males in our society which are not conducive to healthy mental health, valuable and varied inter-relationship skills and a stable sense of self-worth. So I am always interested in hearing about solutions to these issues.

            There seems to be a trigger reaction amongst more than few, that are trying to ensure that discussions on violence are always concerned with the harm done to men. When really it should be about the harm done to society – women and children included.

            • veutoviper

              Links to Dunedin Study at 5.3. Cheers.

            • WeTheBleeple

              It’s hard for men to talk openly about this stuff. This is the age of outrage, of finger pointing and blame. I’m talking under an alias. Some here might know who I am. Nobody wants to own being human or having history in case they are crucified. Picture perfect, that’s what’s expected.

              Me too was/is brilliant in bringing predatory behavior to light, but men are scared to be flawed at all in today’s environment. Take Louis CK. He immediately owned his behavior and went into soul searching mode not realising that, though he asked permission, his was a position of power. He’d done the same thing with Sarah Silverman when they were relative unknowns he’s a freak. Predator? He almost lost it all. Others deserve to lose it all e.g. Weinstein.

              Now, the outrage over predatory men in general is absolutely vindicated. Many men will be soul searching but they don’t want to put their heads up.

              Too scary.

              This makes the conversations required very difficult to have.

              Sexual violence is off topic of domestic violence, but part of the same as well.

              • Molly

                There is a component of public shaming for past behaviours that seems to be automatic, and misses the opportunities many have taken to improve behaviour and have sincerely changed their views and actions.

                From a personal point of view, I think of some of my past actions, and consider it a form of grace to my sanity that I don’t have the public persona that would preserve and record all meltdowns and mistakes, and would undergo such relentless scrutiny that others are exposed to.

                It also doesn’t help when recognisably public relations statements are issued that ring with insincerity when past behaviour is called into question.

                But if we are discussing solutions and improvements in violent behaviour, we do have to give space for people to change and encourage and celebrate genuine change when it does occur.

          • greywarshark

            Yes savenz NZ is punitive about bad behaviour. WTF it’s too late then, and doesn’t stop it just imposes harsh circumstances on someone who has already gone troppo. It’s just military, get back into line, stand straight do the right thing.

            But we are living life not army soldiers, and it’s the learning how to get started and getting the hang of it that needs attention, not punishing people for being such bad-arse proponents of life. The time when to do the good thing, is to care about the young. But this culture of neo lib actually doesn’t care about people from cradle to grave, we are just things to be manipulated.

            We need to get rid of the shapeshifters, with new aliens popping out of their minds, and find enough like-minded real people to get back to a caring society that values people for themselves, and how they want to both give and receive, and not how much money they have, styley house, clothes, holidays…blah to that.

            • SaveNZ

              If they bothered to keep better statistics rather than going on some political gut feelings (aka the vulnerable). For example it has come out that the Grace alleged killer was from divorced parents… these days people meet one day, have kids the next, then divorce soon after or just live together and split up… it would be good to have NON political or identity politics input on this, but just gather the hard cold statistics. Makes sense to me, that kids from broken homes might suffer emotional trauma for example, and maybe we need to think about their rights more and from a prevention point of view, rather than being this tolerant liberal society to a certain set of whims and then the collateral damage is swept under the table. Suicide and depression also on the increase.

              • Molly

                How is reporting Grace came from divorced parents “identity or political input”?

                ‘Divorced parents’ provides no conclusive or suggestive data – just information.

                • SaveNZ

                  I don’t think we keep proper statistics on this type of thing and it’s manipulated completely the small amounts we do. Divorce is not an identity indicator, aka race, gender, sexuality, age etc

                  Divorce/relationship break up with children involved, is an event.

                  • Molly

                    OK, I now see what you are getting at.

                    But I still don’t see how to relates to reporting of an individual instance, and why you are framing it as an identity issue.

                    • SaveNZ

                      I’m trying to say, to get equality and or a better society we need to widen the factors to be studied about modern life, not just focus on factors like identity such as race, gender, sexuality, age or socio economic group and think that will solely make the change alone.

                      Aka the Natz thinking that targeting a few factors in kids would do anything. Life is complicated now, and maybe like areas like smoking, something which people thought was harmless a few decades later, might not be with further study. Same might help for how people live now, and common things that are occurring to kids throughout their lives.

                      Modern economics (aka neoliberalism) could be having negative effects on society that are not measured and I think that looking wider at modern life and the statistics of that and people who might be succeeding or not succeeding might help look at what might be causing things like high levels of violence, suicide, mental illness, depression etc and what factors might help a child/person have much better outcomes…

                    • Molly

                      I agree on limiting perspectives, but I think with some issues – such as violence – there are many successful approaches that are specific to specific outcomes for identified demographics. Rather than eliminating success stories, we should be adding to them so that violent offending is reduced or eliminated, and all victims of violence are helped in the way that best suits them.

                      It seems you are asking for a one-stop shop in terms of framing the situation and providing solutions for it by requiring all relevant considerations to be stripped out. This will result in a flawed framework of discussion, and less than efficient outcomes.

                      I see value in specific programmes addressing both bullies and victims at different ages, and in different environments. There is also value in specialised support a child victim of violence receives, as well as specific approaches for both female and male victims.

                      Gender based solutions – when they provide best outcomes – are surely dependent on gathering that data and info during research.

                    • greywarshark

                      I think more correctly it is a ‘labelling’ issue, so that people are stigmatised and pigeonholed with extreme prejudice.

                  • greywarshark

                    There is a list put together for counselling, assessing trauma etc that prioritises life shocks that impact on peoples’ wellbeing.
                    Just moving house, school is one. Being divorced, with other shocks added to it may be a large trauma to a child. The trouble is that staying with a violent or erratic parent where the child cannot have a stable relationship may be worse than divorce.

                    Helping parents with their needs so they can manage their lives and cope, making the best they can with them would diminish trauma to manageable. But instead we have pious preachy punishing politicians and leaders who have their lives sorted out satisfactorily to them, probably sending their kids to boarding school, and they love to feel superior to others struggling to cope, automatically they feel they are inadequate and unintelligent.

      • JanM 5.2.2

        It may not be as different as you think. There are men who seem to think they are undermined if, as a woman, you don’t do as you are told, and the response can be violent. It is almost irrelevant what the status of the relationship is.
        Most of us harbour a fear of men, though many of us are so used to it that we hide it even from ourselves.

    • veutoviper 5.3

      Molly, re your request for links etc to the “Dunedin Longitudinal Study”, I did a Google search for that exact phrase and came up with long list which seems to have links to the Study itself. I don’t have time right now to check them out, but hope this helps.

      I have also wanted to see the actual study and results etc so have added this link to my Summer Recess Watch and Read list for checking out further.



      I now see there is a Christchurch Longitudinal Study as well.


      • Molly 5.3.1

        Thanks vv.

        I did scout around a bit before asking, but couldn’t find access to the whole paper, and though your search threw up a couple extra, am limited to the abstract or the intro of a book.

        If you do find links to the studies, would appreciate if you could post here on TS, will watch out for your comments.

        There were just a couple of commenters on TS that referred to the studies more than once, I was hoping one of them could provide a link 🙂

        • veutoviper

          As I said I have put it on my list of Reads etc for the Summer break, so will see what I can find. Will also ask a couple of people I know who may be able to help. Will post here mentioning you to alert you if I get any closer to the elusive study. But as a Longitudinal Study I would expect that it is many reports rather than one single one ….

          • Molly

            All good. Really would like those who refer to it often to provide the link, to show that they have put some effort into reading the source, rather than relying on third-party interpretations, and ensuring that the data supports what they are stating.

            While searching did find a link to an American research study:
            Full Report of the Prevalence, Incidence, and Consequences of Violence Against Women that despite the title, interviewed equal numbers of men and women for the report.

            From reading the executive summary it seems that the sample size was considerable – 8,000 females and 8,000 males interviewed, and it appears that both male and female victims of harm were recorded.

            Another one for the summer reading list?

    • Ankerrawshark 5.4


      Hi molly only just read your request. Here is a link, although I haven’t read this actual bit of the study. If you type into google google scholar , click the type in the Dunedin longitudinal study’ you will find a number of articles there

      • Molly 5.4.1

        Hi Ankerrawshark,

        I’ve seen that link already, but it only shows a limited number of pages from the beginning of the book. I can come up with articles but not the study itself.

        This article seems fairly comprehensive though. Thanks for suggesting Google Scholar, didn’t think to utilise that.

        There are some issues I have with the article though –

        1. The longitudinal study from Dunedin would be unlikely to have a demographic that matches New Zealand

        2. The study – due to its nature – only interviewed 21 years olds, and described the interactions of that age cohort only – there will be different responses for others at different stages of their lives;

        3. The use of the CTS tool for assessment of violence, there seems to be no reference to the degree of violence either from the aggressor or as experienced by the victim, (on page 3 of the report)

        4. Although there is a reference to mutual violence, there is no information presented to whether violence occurred due to previous victimisation or violence received. I would consider this to be an important consideration when your count for violent acts includes:

        “Given in to your partner but planned revenge,
        Deliberately disposed of or hidden an important item of your partner’s,
        Damaged a household item or some part of the home out of anger,
        Made threats to leave,
        Thrown, smashed, hit, or kicked something during a disagreement,
        Ordered your partner around”

        Although the article makes reference to the difference between male and female perpetrators of physical violence, despite having the information to hand they don’t appear to publish the different degrees of violence perpetrated. Instead they have lumped all incidents in as if they are of equal import.

        I don’t think this particular study is as indicative of the pattern of violence in the wider New Zealand population as many who reference it seem to believe. There are limitations in the sample, both in size and demographics. Also, the use of CTS that doesn’t place any degree on harm on instances of violence so that an incident of “Given in to your partner but planned revenge” is given equal weight to “Used a knife or gun on your partner”.

        There is also very little context given to violence perpetrated as a response to violence experienced: eg. Someone who locked a partner out of the house, is counted as equal to some one who has “Physically forced your partner to have sex”, because even if the locking occurred after the forced sex, it still counts as an act of violence.

        • RedLogix

          The Dunedin Study is by it’s nature representative of Dunedin in 1972, but remarkably most of it’s findings have been confirmed by similar studies elsewhere in the world. It possibly turns out that when dealing with the sociological and psychological nature of children, families and how we navigate through life, “demographics” has less of an impact that we imagine.

          The Dunedin Study is unique for both it’s reasonably large sample size (over a thousand), it’s longevity (now into it’s fifth decade) and outstanding retention rate (over 95%).

          These make it unique and recognised the world over as a valuable resource; literally hundreds if not thousands of reviewed papers have been published using this Study as a primary source; many of them ground breaking and widely cited. There is a LOT more to this entire Study than one paper or book.

          This aligns with the idea I’ve been expressing elsewhere around violence: The Importance of Self Control.

          • Molly

            I’m not disagreeing with your statements, but do you have any comments about the way that this particular study collated the data on violence?

            Another research project on exactly the same sample group, specifically looked at “Physical assault by 21 year olds against partners”, and once again can only get the abstract which reads as follows:

            Abstract: The authors sought to answer the following question: Are more women than men physically assaulted by a partner? Do a disproportionate number of physical assaults against women involve a partner?Are women subjected to more physical assaults from partners than are men? Are physical assaults on women by partners more severe in terms of physical harm than physical assaults on men by partners? Using a semistructured face-to-face interview, information on assault was obtained from Study members when they turned 21 years of age. Our results showed that more women than men reported being assaulted by a partner, assaults by men represented a greater percentage of women�s assault experiences, the partner assault rate was higher for women, and the assaults against women tended to result in more serious injury.

            When commenters here refer to the Dunedin study where women are shown to be violent more than men to their partner, I believe it needs to be taken in context if we are to successfully find effective solutions.

            As I have not been able to access the study that is often referred to, I made a critique of an article about the study which – indeed – did seem to uphold that premise. However, the CTS tool is a wide-encompassing one – where “thinking about revenge” is counted as an act of violence. That is not necessarily a problem, if the difference in acts are identified in some way in the report. That doesn’t seem to be the case.

            I can also only find the abstract to the above study, which specifically looks at physical violence – and in that context – would be more indicative of the physical harm that is inflicted as IPV.

            On the psychological abuse scale both of these merit the same weighting:
            “Given in to your partner but planned revenge”
            “Threatened to hit or throw something at your partner in anger”

            One is a thought process that doesn’t necessarily result in any further action, the second is a voiced threat that is used to manipulate another person to compliance.

            Do you have any comments on the use of the CTS scale – and why you think it is appropriate?

            Do you have any comments on the abstract shown that indicates that the presumption of women committing equal or more violence when put in context of physical abuse or harm is not upheld by the same group that was studied?

            Do you think it would have been of greater use to indicate what level of abuse was perpetrated, and/or the degree of harm inflicted when reporting on IPV? (This may be available in the original paper but I haven’t yet found an accessible link)

            Duplicating this study using the same CTS scale would in fact duplicate results.

            • RedLogix

              I’d love to have the time and in-depth understanding to do this question justice. For the moment this is the best I can do:

              Imagine I’m working on a ladder and I fall on top of you and break your arm. Painful, annoying and you might well be pissed at me for being so clumsy … but unlikely to be a traumatic episode.

              Now imagine I pick up the same ladder and deliberately smashed your arm, inflicting the exactly same injury. Physically almost identical, except now my bad intentions and malice create an entirely different emotional response. Clearly I’ve set out to hurt you, clearly my bad intent matters quite a lot.

              In general I’d argue that while the physical impact of violence is important, we really cannot discount the emotional aspect either. Intent matters. It can even be argued that repeated, sustained emotional attacks are more corrosive and damaging, especially on children, than physical ones.

              Of course physical violence is relatively easy to observe and classify, while the scars left by bad intent are far less obvious and much harder to quantify. So much depends on context and personality as to how we respond to an emotional attack, and what long-term effects it has. Still any practicing clinical psychologist would tell us that their entire business model depends on to the extreme importance of the emotional response to violence in any form, rather than broken bones.

              What’s more this is not the only study to show that both genders commit IPV at similar rates, although they don’t go about it in exactly the same way. A narrow definition focusing on physical violence will tilt the outcome towards highlighting male aggression, while a wider one that encompasses emotional aggression will tend to even out the result between the genders.

              Therefore at first glance I generally support the idea of including emotional attacks into the category of ‘violence’ … but at the same time accept it’s a troublesome notion to get to grips with. I understand your reservations.

              • Molly

                Thanks RedLogix. I appreciate you taking time to consider my points.

                I also agree that psychological abuse needs to be assessed, but it seems such a flawed decision to not show distinctions in abuse when looking at how to assess the IPV issue, primarily because the tools for solutions will be better designed if they are specific. ie. The support required for psychological harm is appropriate for psychological abuse, but must also be joined with medical expertise and rehabilitation if dealing with severe physical harm.

                It was also interesting that the second research paper on the 21 year olds regarding only physical IPV, had only 5 hits on Google Scholar. The other one, where I linked to the article – comes up with hundreds.

                Part of this could be due to the surprising result of female violence being greater than mens in personal relationships. Click bait for the scientists and headline writers. But as I mentioned, I’m not sure if I am critiquing the paper correctly, but the use of CTS seems to redefine the term of violence into one that my children would be committing – especially the plotting revenge when they are coerced. This internal plotting is human nature, and would only not be present if a person is completely subdued.

          • greywarshark

            RL at 7.36am
            The Dunedin Study is by it’s nature representative of Dunedin in 1972, but remarkably most of it’s findings have been confirmed by similar studies elsewhere in the world.
            This sentence follows the format of many others i have read about sensitive social issues.

            If it confirms similar studies elsewhere in the world. Maybe it is using the same methodology on the same cultural age group in other countries, so that would not be so remarkable, if they were from countries with similar cultures and language.

            ‘Elsewhere in the world’ is the sort of loose comment that we make in NZ which, to me, shows a cultural cringe. It could easily be narrowed down into ‘English speaking’ or expressed as ‘similar studies in the USA, UK and Scandinavia’. There is a laxity in identifying just where the source is by politicians and informed commenters. They might even be talking only about the USA and the ‘studies’ being from separate States there.

  6. ianmac 6

    On Morning Report just now they said that Britain can just Cancel Brexit if the want to and that that would be legal. Not sure what would happen to May if that happened.

    • Andre 6.1

      Y’know, every now and then I feel a bit sympathetic to May trying to do her best with Brexit when in fact she was a remain supporter before the referendum. Don’t worry, that moment doesn’t last long.

      • ianmac 6.1.1

        “The European Court of Justice has ruled that Britain can cancel Brexit without the consent of the other EU member states.”

      • SaveNZ 6.1.2

        @ Andre, May is gone, either way. Not sure I agree that someone power hungry is a good thing when they are working against what they supposedly believed in to remain in power?

        • Andre

          Everyone that is willing to do what it takes to win an elected position is power-hungry. Some are just better at hiding it than others. Sometimes we strongly disagree with what they want to do with that power, sometimes we even get lucky and elect someone that wants to use that power to achieve a few things we actually agree with.

          In May’s case, power-hungry for sure, but also willing to take on a shit sandwich and try to make something vaguely palatable out of it. Surely that’s worth an occasional moment of grudging respect?

          • SaveNZ

            @Andre, May might be willing to take on the shit sandwich, but is she able?

          • marty mars

            I hope Corbyn is up to the task – nothing like reality to dampen ideological fervour – hope he’s been watching yes minister repeatedly.

          • greywarshark

            No Andre
            No grudging respect for being such a dedicated patsy for her class and Party. If she is so desperate to get to the top and has the strength and will to carry through such bad policy because of a redundant desire for British greatness and hubris then she will be blamed, and deserve the obloquy that Margaret hatcher received.

            (The mind is amazing – obloquy just popped up – didn’t know that I knew it.) If we keep on discussing important matters in a thoughtful way on TS we may be able to dredge up unimagined ideas for a better future – so let’s keep trying, and doing something as well as tapping and talking too.

      • Gabby 6.1.3

        And then I think, why, she did make love to this employment.

    • SaveNZ 6.2

      @ ianmac, I think they should seriously consider cancelling Brexit. It is not an election, it is a decision and the people should have the right to vote whether as new information comes to light, they still want Brexit.

      • ianmac 6.2.1

        The referendum was not binding so they could bail out.

        • SaveNZ

          If you go into a business decision and then find out it is pretty unworkable, do you keep going with the ‘shit sandwich’ as Andre above describes it, like a fool, or do you bail out until you have something much better and reasonable and a risk adverse position to move to. They have nothing to move to that is reasonable therefore they should have another referendum and take stock on what the mood of the public is.

    • DJ Ward 6.3

      Promotion to Saint May. It would be a miracle.

  7. greywarshark 7

    The AirNZ engineers threatened strike is apparently for three days – 21st 22nd 23rd
    (three separate strike notices, one each day).

    This will endear unions to the wide general public as it enhances Christmas festivities so much!!

    This will enhance the Labour Party, long connected with workers and unions, and encourage the wide general public to think that Labour will deliver a better-run
    society and is able to solve problems facing the country!!

    This will impress people who regard the word ‘engineer’ with some wariness after the debacle over the presiding engineer and his offsider in designing the incredible collapsing CTV building!!

    Et tu union organiser “We don’t take this position lightly…I appreciate this is hard for people….This is not holding people to ransom. We have drawn a line in the sand.”

    Piffle. Liar. Self-justifying, it isn’t our fault, it was forced on us. This is the tone and is exactly the same as was taken by unions back in the 1980’s. I am not impressed. Deja vu all over again. Bastards.


    • indiana 7.1

      If the Air NZ CEO has the same balls as the Qantas CEO, he’ll ground the fleet now before anymore damage is done.

    • BM 7.2

      Long-term what will happen is aircraft maintenance will be done offshore and these engineers will lose their jobs.

      And the NZ public will cheer and say it serves you right.

      • indiana 7.2.1

        Airlines only need a commercial team, flight operations, pilots and cabin crew (even they can be outsourced). All other functions can easily be outsourced.

        • BM

          Yeah, they’re really cutting their own throats.

          You can’t have a group of employees hold a company and country to ransom.

          Steps will have to be taken to remove this threat, outsourcing maintenance is the logical solution.

          • I feel love

            Cheaper is better afterall, but it’s not really is it?

          • Barfly


            Air New Zealand’s plan was to demand cutbacks in conditions to deliberately trigger strike action to more easily export NZ jobs overseas.

            Jeez that ponytailpuller really has both the cunning and morals of a shithouse rat.

          • mpledger

            The employers are holding their employees to ransom … and the country gets the benefit of that through lower airfares – although maybe not given the profit the company is making.

            We are complicit with the company when we get a benefit when the company treats their workers shabbily. The obvious answer is to shop elsewhere for those of us who don’t like how the workers are treated.

            If the company doesn’t use employees from NZ then why should we, as NZers, give it our loyalty? How can it be a NZ company when it outsources it’s work overseas?

            • shadrach

              “If the company doesn’t use employees from NZ then why should we, as NZers, give it our loyalty?”
              Sure. On my future travels I’ll use an international airline that employs only NZ’ers, pays tax only in NZ, and is run and governed from NZ. Oh wait…

      • Draco T Bastard 7.2.2

        Long-term what will happen is aircraft maintenance will be done offshore and these engineers will lose their jobs.

        You do know that they’ve tried that before right?


        Doesn’t seem to be going too well for them.

        Perhaps it has to do with all those other aircraft coming in to land that need maintenance. Perhaps they realised that they’d lose more profit by cutting those services than they’d save.

        You RWNJs really don’t know how to run a business.

    • greywarshark 7.3

      Air NZ disruption over Christmas – Union comment

      Aviation unions revealed yesterday the strike notice they had issued last week was for three days – 21, 22 and 23 December.
      Urgent talks between unions and the airline to try to avert industrial action over pay and conditions have entered their third day.

      The two unions representing engineering and logistics workers, AMEA and E tū, say two days of mediation have so far failed. Industrial action was initially estimated to affect nearly 42,000 people, but House of Travel commercial planning director Brent Thomas said three days of strike action would affect many more.
      “If it proceeds, it will be a significant impact for a number of travellers – probably upwards of 100,000 potentially people who could be impacted by such a strike”, Mr Thomas said.

      E tū union aviation organiser who goes by the name of Savage, said the members hadn’t taken their decision lightly.




      7 Dec
      However, the unions involved are not liking Air New Zealand’s tone.
      E Tū union’s head of aviation, Savage, said the airline was trying to mislead the public.

      “Air New Zealand is trying to portray this as a group of overpaid engineers when actually there are a lot of underpaid logistics and cleaning staff also included in the collective agreement,” he said.
      “This is primarily about Air New Zealand making record profits and then attempting to cut the pay and conditions of their workers.”

      Are we supposed to feel that Air NZ is making record profits and that going on strike over Christmas is justified to get them to pay more to cleaners, and give engineers more breaks? This is old-style chest-thumping worker versus rich greedy boss, and shoving union power in their face stuff. I thought we were more subtle than that now.
      It appears that union leaders are always prepared to take us to the brink and push us over when they have had a dose too much of strengthening medicine, and are feeling all stroppy. Playing rugby involves tackling head on, but unions learn to play a smarter game. And Now! Just say that you don’t want to go to disappoint at Christmas. Please.

      • mpledger 7.3.1

        It appears the company are quite happy to go to the brink as well.

        If Air NZ, as a service industry, really care about servicing their customers they should have sorted it out well before this stage.

        Their raison d’être is to provide a service – it seems they have forgotten that.

  8. greywarshark 8

    Grace Millane
    Foreign visitors get more sympathy and attention when they are killed and injured than NZs do it seems. We don’t care about each other enough to deal with the awful conditions that so many have to put up with here, but when foreigners in their innocence come here believing our propaganda, we feel guilty.

    And so we should. But more often, and as a whole country that cares, not just a few people who have to continually agitate in NZ to get any humanitarian reaction. Instead we tend to respond to instant emotionalism if there is enough hype, lighting candles and holding vigils for one person. It should be continual observance for those lost to our damaged society.

    • SaveNZ 8.1

      @greywarshark, I agree, Grace Millane has captured people’s hearts for the tragedy, but there are approx 50 murders in NZ per year.

      Saying that, I think Grace is very special because she connected to a lot of people who never knew her in life, and now emotional about her death.

      • greywarshark 8.1.1

        True savenz Let’s keep the emotion going and flowing now for the others to come, and a thought for the background of the shits that hurt them, because the background is what has produced the behaviour, which just tells the thinking person what a desert of anomy (anomie) the person was brought up in.

        Let us in society and our government systems act with love to help the little person and their parents with their needs so as to grow, be strong in resolve and capable with good skills, and be integrated in a caring society that encourages personal responsibility but doesn’t ignore the requirement for a good society to nurture the young and be there for the parent/s.

        Anomy | Define Anomy at Dictionary.com
        a state or condition of individuals or society characterized by a breakdown or absence of social norms and values, as in the case of uprooted people.

  9. Morrissey 9

    “Abandon Empathy and Judgement All Ye Who Enter Here.”
    THOUGHT EXPERIMENT: You are a television news reader

    “Hipkiss, when reading the news or introducing guests reads what other people write. Her job has no editorial component.”—-Sir Galahad Putake, 11 December 2018.

    Your challenge is to sit behind a desk, look straight at an audience (must consist of at least three people) and read the following ten statements without snickering like Paul Henry, corpsing like Hilary Barry, raising an eyebrow like Peter Williams, pouting like Jack Tame, pausing meaningfully like Simon Dallow or in any other manner indicating dissent or disagreement with the words, however outrageous or offensive, that you are required to read out.

    Okay, here we go….

    1.) President Trump assured the crowd that he was not only a genius, but an especially “stable genius.”

    2.) President Clinton admits that he did indeed smoke marijuana, however he was at pains to assure the American people that he “didn’t enjoy it” and he “didn’t inhale.”

    3.) Mark Textor, co-founder of Crosby/Textor and a Key adviser, said: “Growing up the son of a single mum in the suburbs gave him an everyman’s touch. He wasn’t cool, but people liked that. If anything, his dorkiness translated into empathy and sincerity.”

    4.) Repeatedly insisting that the victim had in fact chased himself down and then stabbed himself to death, the victim advocate Garth McVicar noted that the angry man wielding the knife had nothing to do with the killing.

    5.) Judith Collins said she was most concerned about those close to Mr Ross. “I just feel SO SORRY for his wife and family. It’s so appalling.”

    6.) “Israel is a law-abiding state,” said Mr Netanyahu.

    7.) The blogger Cameron Slater issued the following statement: “I don’t break the law, and that’s the end of the story.”

    8.) Assistant Commissioner Alan Boreham assured the media: “Look, integrity is absolutely critical to the New Zealand Police. It’s a core value.”

    9.) Addressing the shooting down of an Iranian commercial airline plane by the USS Vincennes, which killed 290 civilians, President George H.W. Bush said: “I will never apologize for the United States. I don’t care what the facts are. I’m not an apologize-for-America kind of guy.”

    10.) President George W. Bush solemnly announced that the United States would “be standing with the people of Afghanistan and Iraq until their hopes for freedom and liberty are fulfilled.”

    If you made it to the end of that with a straight face, congratulations. You are either braindead, or your name is Ingrid.

  10. greywarshark 10

    We need pageantry and rituals and fun and laughter and light-hearted poking at serious topics, now and then. People like this are national treasures.

    Former McGillicuddy Serious leader Graeme Cairns now divides his time between penny farthings, medical training and street theatre, and his latest endeavour “doing pennants” features a bicycle-powered sewing machine.

    The McGillicuddy Serious Party was founded to contest the 1984 election with its campaign plank of the Great Leap Backwards.

    It predicted upheaval, chaos and the breakdown of society as we know it and a plan to insulate New Zealand from the worst excesses of the future.

    • WeTheBleeple 10.1

      I knew a couple of those boys doing uni in Hamilton when I was a Hamiltonian. Loads of fun and very smart. Fridgehenge was my favorite. Lots of old fridges in a circle in a paddock, and lots of cider.

      • greywarshark 10.1.1

        Fridgehenge! Please stick around WtB won’t you. You are a fount of creative thinking with laughs as well; great mix.

    • Anne 10.2

      Cairns has no desire to revive his great political movement, despite McGillicuddy Serious once being the fifth-biggest party in the country.

      Shame. I want to vote for them.

  11. greywarshark 11

    Iraq, it got hit badly. It gets pushed to the side by the latest outrage but here is a plea to think again of us.

    life and society refugees and migrants
    6 Dec 2018
    Iraqi priest in NZ: ‘Please save our people’
    From Checkpoint, 6:13 pm on 6 December 2018
    Listen duration 13′ :42″

    Auckland-based Catholic priest Fr Douglas Al-Bazi was tortured by terrorists in Iraq and sheltered thousands of people fleeing from Islamic State. He tells Alex Perrottet his harrowing story and says New Zealand should be taking more refugees suffering genocide in the Middle East

    I haven’t listened to it yet but I guess I must. As I asked querously before ‘Do I have to worry about everything?’ and thought it seems that I do, I should put this on my list of important human things to be concerned about and act to assist.
    They have a good case surely. Perhaps we should look each day, and refer and describe a group that should be in our minds for the fraction of time necessary to ensure they stay in society’s consciousness. So today Syria.

  12. Ed 12

    The monopoly of the press by National supporting billionaires erodes our democracy.
    Breaking up that monopoly should be a priority of the coalition Government.

    [lprent: Ed needs to get up later. This morning he gets the late morning award. ]

    • tc 12.1

      Power, building materials, fullers ferrys, supermarkets, fuel etc etc crikey don’t stop at the media as oligopoly/duopoly behaves as a combined monopoly.

    • bwaghorn 12.2

      You’ll be pleased to know Mark Richardson came out in support of the air nz strikers this am then .

    • James 12.3

      Do you know what a monopoly is?

      What exactly are you trying to break up ?

    • greywarshark 12.4

      How come on the 12 December I am looking at Ed’s comment at 8.42am while the comment’s time is 10.17 am. Is Ed in another country, are you in Oz Ed?

      • Andre 12.4.1

        Have a think about who might have the ability to change the timestamp on a comment and why that choice might be made.

        • greywarshark

          Duh why should I do that. I have enough to worry about wondering if I should change my booking to get me and family to our Christmas family meeting.
          Do i have to worry about everything in the world? Apparently I do.

          • Molly

            grey – lprent has left a comment on Ed’s that indicates he has changed Ed’s timestamp so that it will not be at the top of Open Mike.

            • Robert Guyton

              That’s elegant, lprent.

              • veutoviper

                I am assuming that lprent uses this same ability on an automatic basis to move another poster’s comments to the end of the previous day’s OM.

                It is quite fascinating watching this whole thread move slowly down the numbering system as new comments appear here on OM.

                • greywarshark

                  Yes commenters need to understand the numbering system and how it works. I sometimes insert mine under someone’s who I concur with rather than trail under some who are WOS in my opinion.
                  And if not carefully placed, a reply gets so far away from the original
                  comment, it becomes irrelevant especially if there is no reference in it to hook it up by the number or name.

            • Anne

              What happens when we get to 1017am in real time? Does Ed zoom out of his present spot and goes to the bottom, or do all those ahead of him disappear and he ends up back at the top again? 😛

              • Andre

                Nothing happens to the comment or thread following. Ed just appears in the comments sidebar, making it briefly falsely appear like he’s going to participate in an actual discussion rather than doing his usual early morning spray and walk away.

                • veutoviper

                  Interesting and there was an entry in the sidebar at about 10.17am and his comment and the thread are now set at number 12 – and the next new ‘start’ comment at 10.40am came in under it at 13.


                • Anne

                  I was being facetious as Ed’s expense. 😎

                • greywarshark

                  He does seem to care about issues, perhaps more than you Andre from whom I get a whiff of cynicism and possibly even sneering from time to time.

            • greywarshark

              Thanks Molly.

              I remember back in school the really bright, keen interested persons who were up with the lesson and always had their hand up with the answer for the teacher. Sometimes that was me. The other kids get p.o. It’s wise to let others go first Ed – I do notice that you tend to be up with the birds to get the first worms!

  13. SaveNZ 13

    60% of sunscreens are misleading, not acceptable. What happens if they are misleading, surely they get a massive fine, not just a shrug or a slap on the hand? There seems to be a double standard when businesses rip people off and profit from it and when individuals rips people off and profit from it.

    Consumer NZ report shows most sunscreens not living up to label claims


  14. CHCOff 15

    Farmers,, to protect yourselves they need to be the liveblood of their communities and the local communities the identities of the farmers.


    To cut themselves off from this is to be driven off the land. National, Fed Farmers are not your friends to this, are not on your side, are not on the same team. They butter you up with the high prices, the imported labour, you are better than your community & immune to the quietly rising bank rates and costs of living. But then the bubbles in your returns are removed more and more.

    And the local market and culture is gone. Your biggest asset in stability. Your biggest card for brand identity and connection to external markets, where you don’t need the middle men of trade homogenization and are at the whims of fluctuating rates amidst all the other brands of X, Y & Z.

    Because you have the advantage of your boutique local community chains and markets that no one else has.


    • Draco T Bastard 15.1

      Farmers stopped being the lifeblood of the community when they dropped below supporting 50% of the economy. IIRC, that was back in about 1920. Even if they still employ ~7% directly I would be surprised if the total employed due to farming gets above 10%.

      Simple maths really.

      • CHCOff 15.1.1

        That is simple maths.

        Some more simple logic could be also that the ground floor stopped being important, when all the others were built on top of it; or the region’s resources lost their importance once the town grew up in the middle of it.

        • Draco T Bastard

          I didn’t say that they stopped being important. I said that the stopped being the lifeblood. The reason for that is because they no longer relate to everybody and the percentage is dropping.

          If we got serious about climate change the number of farms and farmers would drop to ~1/3rd of what we have now.

          It’s long gone that they did relate to everybody and it’s not coming back and they really should drop this leaning on past glories that they seem to think is still important and still valid.

  15. ianmac 16

    I bet no one can guess what Battler Simon will ask in Q1 today at Question Time. You would think that by now he would know that he will make no headway against Jacinda.

    Q1 Hon SIMON BRIDGES to the Prime Minister: Does she stand by all her Government’s statements and actions?

    • veutoviper 16.1

      And he didn’t. Bridges is still on about any representations by Ministers etc on the Sroubek case but he isn’t and is unlikely to make any progress on that. He really is walking on shaky grounds on that one IMO but cannot say why. Bridges really is not very clever. Mitchell has gone very very quiet recently. LOL

      Today’s Questions to Ministers

      Hon SIMON BRIDGES to the Prime Minister: Does she stand by all her Government’s statements and actions?

      KIRITAPU ALLAN to the Minister of Finance: What progress, if any, has been made on implementing the Government’s economic policies?

      Hon AMY ADAMS to the Minister of Finance: Does he stand by all of his statements and actions?

      Hon JUDITH COLLINS to the Minister of Housing and Urban Development: How many houses built, bought, or underwritten by the KiwiBuild programme are contracted and scheduled to be ready for owner occupation by 1 July 2019, and when will the first KiwiBuild houses in Te Kauwhata be completed?

      MARK PATTERSON to the Minister of Conservation: What alternatives to 1080, if any, is the Department of Conservation involved in using or researching for pest control?

      Hon PAUL GOLDSMITH to the Minister of Transport: Does he think that the purpose of transport policy is to make it easier for New Zealanders to get around quickly, efficiently, and safely?

      Hon SCOTT SIMPSON to the Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety: How many workers have gone on strike so far in 2018, and does he believe it is reasonable for union workers at Air New Zealand to threaten strike action on the 21st, 22nd, and 23rd of December?

      JAN TINETTI to the Minister of Education: What proposals has he seen on the future of schooling in New Zealand?

      Hon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE to the Minister of Immigration: Other than Karel Sroubek’s lawyer and family members, who made representations on his behalf in respect of the deportation liability that was the subject of the Minister’s decision on 19 September 2018?

      Hon NIKKI KAYE to the Minister of Education: What advice, if any, has he received on the potential estimated cost of implementing recommendations in the report by the Tomorrow’s Schools Independent Taskforce?

      TAMATI COFFEY to the Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs: What recent announcements has he made to protect consumers and businesses from unfair commercial practices?

      JO HAYES to the Minister for Whānau Ora: Does he agree with the Prime Minister’s statement on Whānau Ora incentive payments that “the Minister has said he is looking at the way that some of those arrangements work with Whānau Ora”?


      Then the usual Wednesday, General Debate for an hour, followed by the last Members’ Day of the year. Regrettably the Members’ Bills to be considered are Nat ones, sponsored by Nick Smith and Jonathan Young in that order, ie:

      The Tasman District Council (Waimea Water Augmentation Scheme) Bill – First Reading

      The New Plymouth District Council (Waitara Lands) Bill – Second Reading

      They may then move onto continuing the Committee stages of Simeon Brown’s Psychoactive Substances (Increasing Penalty for Supply and Distribution) Amendment Bill.

    • I loved the way he asked a supplementary question in such a way as to give the PM a free hit in reply, then repeated the question so she she could whomp him again. Simon’s a slow learner.

  16. SaveNZ 17

    Sign if you want to

    Give the Māori seats the same level of protection as every other seat in Parliament.


  17. Pete 18

    Years into the future I see Michael Woodhouse on his deathbed asking questions of the most significant event in the years of his time: “Who made representations about Karel Sroubek?”

    • ianmac 18.1

      Weird eh? Do they think that someone whose aunty is the second cousin of a Labour MP reckons that someone ought to speak up for Sroubek but in fact they thought they were backing a new brand of bacon. Sroubek Bacon.
      Still you have to give Bridges and Woodhouse credit for the doggedness needed to uncover the said aunty’s name. And won’t the Opposition be thrilled with Aunty Jenny’s name. Wow!

      • taxicab 18.1.1

        Turns out that the name they have been desperately trying to be spoken in an answer is a one ‘Richie Hardcore’ seemingly a friend of Clarke Gayford and a kick boxing associate of Sroubeck . National desperate to make Jacinda look guilty by association . Question that should be asked of the opposition is how did they get a copy of the representations . Looks like National has left the Public Service stacked with informants . Interesting that the MSM didn’t cover this when the Penguin at Kiwiblog published this weeks ago and got no traction on it . In the end Woodlouse spat the name out himself . Shows the level of desperation in National to get a headline putting the PM in a bad light because her partner knows someone who knows someone .

        • mac1

          And how many people is that? I’d like a dollar for every person who knows a person I know!

          New Zealand is like that. One of the great things about meeting another Kiwi is the second question.

          Q1. “So where are you from?
          Q2. “Do you know so and so from there?”

          I met a man in the street in Greece who had a Kiwi accent. He asked where are you from? I told him. “Oh,” he said. “I met a winemaker from your area in Gibraltar on a yacht. Can’t remember his name.”

          I could, though.

          So, if National is trying to link our PM into the Sroubek affair because someone she knows knows someone, then that is patently ludicrous.

          It’s ‘guilt by association”, very tenuous and would be laughed out of court, and out of any reasonable debate. Pfffffft!

        • ianmac

          Yeh. Actually I know a chap who played chess with a woman who once took a selfie with John Key. Luckily the then Opposition didn’t find out about my association with Key or all Hell would break out. Phew!

        • ianmac

          Really taxicab? Do you mean to say that the Opposition wasted dozens of questions to get that??? What a strategy. No wonder the Opposition looks so flat.

      • Anne 18.1.2

        You mean like this:

        This is especially for lprent because I know how much it means to him. Its his kinda music.

  18. bwaghorn 19


    If you brought coastal property in the last 10 years tuff luck no compo you were warned about sea level rise.
    Before that maybe there is a case.

    • Gabby 19.1

      But surely RICH people will be compensated?

    • Draco T Bastard 19.2

      Considering the dangers of beach-front houses – they were warned. As a child it may seem nice to have a house on the beach. An adult should know better.

    • RuralGuy 19.3

      Fantastic, I presume that as this government are going to compensate land owners for climate change impacts, that I should expect a subsidy should my farm suffer any loss of productivity or value from climate.

  19. David Mac 20

    It’s hard to imagine the Captains of Insurance resigned to “Oh well, my bad luck, there goes 8 million” as their Takapuna boxes of architect spunk go under.

    • Draco T Bastard 20.1

      In this hyper-capitalist, individualistic society – its not our problem.

      If they’re that concerned about it they should probably be contacting their insurance agents and making sure that they’re still insured.

      • David Mac 20.1.1

        Hyper capitalist….sheesh. We’ve got it pretty sweet bro. 12 year old girl got her legs blown off in Homs today, what happened in your suburb?

        You will die waiting for the revolution you dream of Draco. Waiting on a bus that is never coming is a crap way to rip up 70 years. Buy a Subway franchise man!

        • Draco T Bastard

          Trying to save the world from the greedy schmucks is worthwhile even if I don’t manage it. The people left over after the ecological collapse brought about by those same greedy schmucks will have something to work with.

          • David Mac

            There’s a vein of envy that runs through your comments Draco.

            We are all greedy. You are a ‘The Standard’ bandwidth gluttonous pig.

            As sins go, we all fall victim to the temptation of greed.

            Some people don’t know when to stop stacking money and others don’t know when to get out of the fridge.

            • David Mac

              I’m sorry Draco, you’re not a gluttonous pig. You’re passionate about your view of the world and a desire to share that view is mere testament to that passion. We need more people that care as much as you do.

              How would you feel about being crowd funded into your own Subway franchise?

              • In Vino

                David Mac – don’t overrate yourself, and don’t judge others by your own miserably low standards. Greed is your own quality. Love it if you must, but don’t try to impose it on us all like a religion. Your hot air is unimpressive. Go somewhere else.

                • greywarshark

                  In Vino
                  I usually like your take on things. David Mac tends much to the RW
                  and the pragmatic.approach which ought to be considered when thinking about anything, but not automatically adopted.

                  • Draco T Bastard

                    the RW and the pragmatic.approach

                    Right-wing and pragmatic would be an oxymoron.

                    Such ideas should be considered and then, more often than not, thrown out as they’re simply not connected to reality in any way, shape or form.

  20. eco maori 21

    Kia ora The Am Show
    Japan best symbol of the year is correct disaster the world is heading towards a massive disaster .
    Cohen 3 year’s jail does not look good for someone.
    Yes people have to respect Tangaroa and its beautiful creatures if one does not it could end badly .
    Its cool that Air NZ & there workers have come to a agreement to sort out there differences in a office and not striking .
    Mark I seen that Dennis Conner is back to challenge for the Americas Cup .
    Chris what happened to the hot dry year that was forecast just a few months ago what about climate change ??????????.
    Genetic therapy engineering is not acceptable at all but selecting embryos is ok that is not quite trying to be god and when one try’s to do that it ends up being a big mess.
    Kia ora to Andrew good skills to get in 2018 your sustainability qualification .
    Ka kite ano P.S I like Noam Chomsky view on things

  21. eco maori 22

    I say equality is needed to correct this big mess that men are making of Our world .
    Susan Atkins: ‘We must take the threat to women in public life seriously’
    Catherine Baksi
    On the republication of 1984’s Woman and the Law, the co-author says the legal system remains ‘male-centric’
    Susan Atkins is co-author of the pioneering book Women and the Law, which examines the way the law has treated women at work, in the family, in matters of sexuality, fertility and violence, and in public life. It is a study of the law’s attitude to women and how it reflects the influence of economic, social and political forces, revealing a deep-rooted, male-centric gender inequality. “Only when women are aware of the extent of the discrimination against them, of how it operates and of how to use the law and to influence law reform to their own ends will further progress be made,” it says.

    The book was first published in 1984, when society and law were going through a period of transition. In 1973 married mothers gained a status equal to that of married fathers. Equal pay and sex discrimination legislation was changing the workplace. The Abortion Act 1967 expanded the grounds upon which abortion was legal in Britain. The introduction of the contraceptive pill in 1974 gave women greater control over their fertility, and the Domestic Violence and Matrimonial Proceedings Act 1976 strengthened the civil remedies available to victims of abuse.
    We need to use laws to correct this in our society as some men will fight Equality with all the power they have and because of this it will take centuries to correct this imbalance of power that is leading us down the road of disaster . Ka kite ano links below


  22. eco maori 23

    This is a scramble to keep burning carbon in Australia after there next election as it looks like the morrison moron COAL coalition government will be rolled trump will be lonely when the may government gets rolled out of government to then most will be flipping him the bird
    The morrison government has sent a clear signal that it is prepared to provide taxpayer support for both new and existing coal plants, opening registrations of interest in its controversial new power generation underwriting program.
    Labor and the Greens are opposed to any taxpayer support for coal projects, and will continue efforts once parliament resumes next year to try and frustrate the Coalition’s program, potentially by attempting to amend the government’s “big stick” divestiture bill, which stalled in the final sitting week, to include a prohibition on power companies receiving commonwealth support Ka kite ano


  23. eco maori 24

    Eco Maori say bring back Bernie Sanders he will clean up trump and the mess he is making of OUR world ka kite ano P.S I seen the show with Michelle


  24. eco maori 25

    We did not see this story in OUR Worlds media Ka pai they have voted to pull the war machine out of Yemen I hope aid will be sent in to the poor children
    The Senate is due to vote on Wednesday on whether to cut US military support for the Saudi-led coalition fighting in Yemen, amid deepening scepticism over the Trump administration’s alliance with Riyadh.

    The independent senator Bernie Sanders succeeded in forcing a vote on the resolution after a Republican revolt on 28 November – driven in part by outrage over the Saudi murder of the Washington Post columnist Jamal Khashoggi – defeated the Trump administration’s efforts to stop it going to a vote.
    ‘Yemenis are left so poor they kill themselves before the hunger does’
    Read more

    Wednesday’s vote marks the first time a measure invoking the 1973 War Powers Resolution, asserting congressional supremacy in matters of war and peace, has progressed so far in the Senate. The vote comes across the backdrop of peace talks in Stockholm in a UN-brokered effort to halt a war that is thought to have already killed many tens of thousands of civilians, mostly from coalition bombing and starvation, largely as a results of the coalition’s strategy of economic strangulation.
    Links below


    Fast facts on Bernie Sanders ka kite ano

  25. eco maori 26

    Here my video on Bernie Sanders take 2 ka kite ano P.S someone is stuffing with my computer

  26. eco maori 27

    Well I did find the story but not in the big web sights of Aotearoa

    In a rare break with President Donald Trump, the US Senate has voted to move ahead with a resolution to end military support for the Saudi Arabian-led coalition in the war in Yemen and lawmakers vowed to push for sanctions against the kingdom in the new year Ka kite ano links below


  27. eco maori 28

    Kia ora Scotty from Te karere
    I did back vaping but only as a tool to give up smoking I now have some concerns about the oil as we don’t no what is in it but ka pai to the kuia for using it to give up smoking I am still using mine
    Our maori Rugby players had a good season this year
    Yes its better to treat the addiction than lock em up like some fools back Pee and dariydack are killing our tangata
    Ka kite ano PS I started watching a bit late ka kite ano

  28. eco maori 29

    Kia ora Newshub
    Well that’s a logical move as there is a need to target the importers of hard drugs as these kill people weed well no reports of people dying from a over dose from consuming weed .
    I did a post on how the world treats our Wahine the leaders of our country need to set a good example to our youth that Wahine are not just here for men’s use and need to be respected .
    The way I see it Lloyd is they did not want a coo just before Christmas may and brexit
    or boris in power.
    Yes we have to plan for climate change to minimize loses of life and money thanks to shonky and bridges we have no real plan to mitigate the phenomenon bridges togs are getting messy .
    What that tx tells me is that bridges is grabbing at straws and looks like a kid who is not happy .
    Congratulations to Jemma and Richie on the new baby
    Simon I see that Te papa displaying some of the great Chinese Terracotta Army of Qin Shi Huang that is awesome .
    Alex hope we have some good weather but it does not look like it with that weather map
    Ka kite ano P.S for got to edit last nite

  29. eco maori 30

    Kia ora James & Mulls
    The Allblacks awards Sam Brodies try was up there with was it Joes try the chicken.
    You guys look so young in the back yard cricket last night
    Ka pai to Honey Hireme and Jarred Waerea Hargreaves for there Rugby league awards
    yes James one need’s boots to play league lol
    That a good challenge from the Basket ball team the young fella did quite good
    O so there was Steven Adams and Temura Morrison acting with Jason Momoa in Aquaman I will be going to see that movie. I have just watched Frontier another of Jasons movies . P.S the Pacific Stars are shining ka pai
    Our wahine sports star are shining bright to
    Ka kite ano

  30. eco maori 31

    Jokes on Eco Maori Mulls I quite like humour but the jokes on you its on air that you stated that Ka kite ano P.S your m8 are abandoning ship lol

  31. eco maori 32

    Some Eco Maori Music for the minute

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