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Open mike 22/06/2019

Written By: - Date published: 7:00 am, June 22nd, 2019 - 226 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

226 comments on “Open mike 22/06/2019 ”

  1. Adrian 1

    Won't someone please start a GoFuckYou page for Israel Folau.

    • Red Blooded One 1.1

      Agreed 100%, the whiney little Neanderthal should have stuck to gripping the pig-skin and left the thinking and talking to the adults.

      • Morrissey 1.1.1

        It's the prolate spheroid used in American football—which, bizarrely, is hardly ever kicked—that is (colloquially) called "the pigskin." Nobody ever calls the footballs kicked—not "gripped"— by Folau and his confreres a "pigskin."

        • Red Blooded One

          Thank you for the lesson, however I couldn’t give a "flying football" about the technical terms of the game. I obviously picked up the term from too much time in the States and you knew immediately what the reference was to, so all’s good.

          • Morrissey

            Good on you, RBO! Have a good Saturday. (I share your sentiments about Folau and his bigoted friends by the way.)

            • Red Blooded One

              Cheers Morrissey, the gastronomical delights of the Kaitaia Market await. The happiest of days to you too.

      • Ad 1.1.2

        It's Pigskin's Lament.

    • That'd be an interesting concept when a good many of Israel''s contemporaries judge 'gayness' on the basis of whether or not they're a "top' or a 'bottom'.

      It's also a good enough explanation as to how one or two from Destiny's Church that once marched along Lambton Quay in black T-shirts could justify their hypocrisy.

      Fuckers .v. Fuckees

    • Adrian Thornton 1.3

      I think there are plenty more people who deserve a ' GoFuckYou page' rather than Folau.

      The guy is obviously a screw up, indoctrinated from birth by a fucked up guilt driven religion, obviously completely under the thumb of his ( 'You'll go to hell, son' ) Dad who is some kind of crazy fundamentalist Minister and has effectively destroyed his son's ticket to financial security…I feel sorry for him, what a disaster.

      Maybe you should punch up, there are plenty of people far more worth your energy than just giving this guy more oxygen, which he and we don't need.

      'Intervention by Israel's Folau's father prevented peace deal with Rugby Australia'


      • OnceWasTim 1.3.1

        "I think there are plenty more people who deserve a ' GoFuckYou page' rather than Folau."

        True enough @ Adrian.

        Personally I regard 'the Falou' as a patheticism. An adherent to the ' what plays in Vegas STAYS in Vegas ' loif stoil. Of the 'Oim exceptional' and YOU of the 'other'

        Make of it what you will. Full of Shite? I think there's a high probability

      • greywarshark 1.3.2

        So 'Adrian' is not you Adrian Thornton. I thought you'd gone minimalist.

        Could ' Adrian' please put something else beside that moniker to give more definition please? What about Adrian2 or AdrianZ etc. Adrian the Aardvark would be fun if you like Monty Python!

        • Adrian Thornton

          @greywarshark, "I thought you'd gone minimalist." no has ever accused me of that before…with good reason….stuff seems to be drawn to me by pure osmosis, luckily most of ir is interesting stuff.

    • halfcrown 1.4

      I like itlaugh

    • Gabby 1.5

      Does he need funding for removal of his sinful ungodly tatts? Izzy needs to bone up on his leviticus.

  2. Macro 2

    Meanwhile UK's leading candidate for next PM…

    Police called to loud altercation at Boris Johnson's home

    Police were called to the home of Boris Johnson and his partner, Carrie Symonds, in the early hours of Friday morning after neighbours heard a loud altercation involving screaming, shouting and banging.

    The argument could be heard outside the property where the potential future prime minister is living with Symonds, a former Conservative party head of press.

    A neighbour told the Guardian they heard a woman screaming followed by “slamming and banging”. At one point Symonds could be heard telling Johnson to “get off me” and “get out of my flat”.


    • Anne 2.1

      Symonds is heard saying Johnson had ruined a sofa with red wine: “You just don’t care for anything because you’re spoilt. You have no care for money or anything.”

      LOLS. And this is how far the Tories have sunk?

      God Defend Britain!

    • Observer Tokoroa 2.2

      Well Done Crazy Britain !

      You have voted a first class Eccentric – Boris Johnson – into the Prime Ministership.

      He has dumped all of Europe and insulted all of them. He has dumped all the Citizens of England – except the mad Tories.

      He is incredibly dumb. He seems also to have upset at rowdy midnight, one of his girl friends.

      He is the perfect Tory Englishman.

      The Poor of Britain should gather whatever bits of bread and butter they can. For the bastard Tories will set about turning the middle class and poor into blood and poxy bone – for decades.

      But then – the Brits only ever seek Eccentricity.

    • Adrian Thornton 2.3

      Thank you Marco, that hilarious news was just what I needed, first good laugh of the day, fucking brilliant stuff…" they heard a woman screaming followed by “slamming and banging”. At one point Symonds could be heard telling Johnson to “get off me” and “get out of my flat”

      The Thick of it couldn't have done a better job..in fact it has just occurred to me that having Boris as PM will be like that show, but in real time..and with Trump across the Atlantic, man, you couldn't make this shit up.

    • Matiri 2.4

      Didn’t Amber Rudd say Boris Johnson was not the man she would like to drive her home at the end of the evening?

    • UncookedSelachimorpha 2.5

      Boris will definitely win the Tory leadership now, no doubt about it

  3. marty mars 3

    terrible times getting worse

    President Trump has directed U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement agents to conduct a mass roundup of migrant families that have received deportation orders, an operation that is likely to begin with predawn raids in major U.S. cities on Sunday, according to three U.S. officials with knowledge of the plans.

    The “family op,” as it is referred to at ICE and the Department of Homeland Security, is slated to target up to 2,000 families facing deportation orders in as many as 10 U.S. cities, including Houston, Chicago, Miami, Los Angeles and other major immigration destinations, said the officials, who spoke on the condition of anonymity to describe the law enforcement operation.

    Washington Post Link here

    • Morrissey 3.1

      Clinton started this abuse of migrant families, and Bush II and Obomber continued the abuse. Trump is merely carrying on a well established practice.

      • RedLogix 3.1.1

        Bleeding all over the carpet for illegal migrants is stupid. It's idiotic to expend political capital on people who commit crimes.

        What do you imagine would happen if you tried to enter the USA illegally? At LAX or the Canadian border? Do you expect to be treated nicely, given a warm welcome and told 'don't worry about those stupid immigration laws you can stay as long as you like'?

        This is the dark side of empathy; making excuses for people who break the law and then whining when it turns out badly for them.

        • Morrissey


          Seeking asylum is not breaking the law.

          • RedLogix

            Asylum is not a mass loophole for millions of people to evade legal migration processes.

        • marty mars

          thanks for that christian view – jesus also said fuck them so well done to you not.

          Your view is inhumane imo especially as a well heeling immigrant to aussie yourself – that is you though – just a mess of privilege and insecurities wrapped up in dogma. Luckily your fundamentalism is not that common with thinking christians I know and care about – they oppose your attitudes as much as I do and youknowwho would.

          • RedLogix

            Straight to the personal attacks as usual. I guess that's what works in your world.

            • marty mars

              yeah in your world you seem to just 'forget' great swathes of people as if they never existed

              • RedLogix

                I'm the one here who consistently speaks to the need for a universal and principled system of globalisation that embraces justice and collective security for all the diverse peoples of the world.

                Yet when I do, you sneer at it.

                • marty mars

                  it is just a white wash

                  • RedLogix

                    I live in the hope that one day you might say something not quite so predictable.

                    • Robert Guyton

                      A slight adjustment gives you "white wish".

                      I'm good with that.

                    • marty mars

                      lol yes robert good for you that you are good with that meanwhile…

                    • RedLogix

                      Note carefully how marty still doesn't tell us exactly what his problem is with my argument. Either because he doesn't know, or he doesn't want to say.

                      And it's still just a personal attack on my integrity. He only gets away with it because as an 'oppressed minority' around here he's implicitly held to a much lower standard of behaviour.

                    • marty mars

                      lol you are such a victim – I love how you try with your ineffectual bluster to get me to do something – hey guess what knobhead – no! I will not act, behave or be the way that you want. Your arguments are bullshit based upon white supremacy and men's rights idiot lines. I think you are dumb dumb and you know it. But still you put your bogus line "why can't the world be like I want it" – I love it – keep wailing it. I respect LEFT thinkers not you.

                    • RedLogix

                      You never own your argument marty, most of the time its personal attacks and lies. Now you are reduced to directly accusing me of being a white supremacist and a mens rights something or other.

                      Is there anything else bad I'm supposed to be?

                    • marty mars

                      more sobbing cos you're not getting your own way – lol – what next i wonder – try shaming again that's always a funny one from you…

                    • RedLogix

                      No-one 'gets their own way' here. This is a place for debate and discussion; there are no 'winners or losers'. You are free to make your case just as anyone else is; it's just that you seem to prefer to bully and shame people into submission if you don't agree with them.

                      Why that is only you can know; I don't pretend to understand your motives. But I do know that it's tedious and predictable; it's like trying to talk with a golem.

                    • marty mars

                      "Golem is an animated anthropomorphic being that is magically created entirely from inanimate matter (usually clay or mud)"


                      bully and shame time eh – the funny thing is you are so ignorant that you don't realise you gave me a compliment – thanks dumbarse lol

                    • RedLogix

                      But not a mind of it's own.

                    • marty mars

                      lol just cos I won't dance to your tune – hey mr privilege you have been shown to be the utter dickhead you are today – I've really enjoyed it thanks for that lol 🙂

                    • RedLogix

                      Whatever amuses you marty. Personally I think it's better you take it out on me here than the people who have to live with you.

                      Still anytime you want to engage in good faith I'll be here.

                    • marty mars

                      thats nice of you ta – you have displayed some nasty qualities today – a bit like your snide comment about me and my family in your last comment. This is what you and your types do. You can't actually debate because you are too full of anger and self loathing. I get it – you and your types have fucked this world and you feel guilty so you project against others including little children being detained. That is your level – low, very low.

                      I know you're a very sad, inadequate man.

                    • RedLogix

                      In the meantime I'll keep wanting the best for you. Sleep well.

                    • marty mars

                      lol – get over your bigotry and become someone decent and then I'll give a fuck

        • Red Blooded One

          making comments like "What do you imagine would happen if you tried to enter the USA illegally? At LAX or the Canadian border? Do you expect to be treated nicely, given a warm welcome and told 'don't worry about those stupid immigration laws you can stay as long as you like'?" is as inflammatory and frankly stupid as if I said "All undocumented arrivals should shot on the spot" It happens every day at LAX, undocumented people arrive they are treated firmly but fairly until they are either deported or let in. I don't think anyone here is suggesting what you are saying.

          • RedLogix

            It happens every day at LAX, undocumented people arrive they are treated firmly but fairly until they are either deported or let in.

            That is precisely what I'm saying. Either satisfy their immigration process legally or accept that you are going to be deported.

            • Ad

              Massive poorly controlled immigration is the only reason the left is dying across the entire world.

              • RedLogix

                Thank you. Illegal migration was one of maybe two or three issues that enabled Trump. Why anyone thinks more of it will help is beyond me.

                And of course when children are tangled up into it, the potential for tragedy becomes unlimited.

              • WeTheBleeple

                Who is causing this massive movement of people?

                Could it be right wing neo-con warmongering has some responsibility?

                As in cause (War) and effect (Running for your life).

                It is ironic how the scum who breed unrest then get to cash in politically by spinning it as if they themselves are under attack.


                • RedLogix

                  Who is causing this massive movement of people?

                  I've written to that many times. Most people are deeply attached to the places they grow up in. It's home, it's where they belong, it's where they have connections. They typically only move in large numbers if their home becomes an oppressive shit hole with little hope for their children.

                  And yes big nation hegemonies, warmongers and economic pillaging all play a part. They always have, it's nothing new and certainly the Western 'neo-cons' are only one of many threads to this story.

                  My argument is simple and consistent; globalisation has become an unstoppable human project and the logical coherent path forward is to implement it properly. Bring the age of empires to an end.

                • Bruce

                  I copied this from an article I red yesterday, seems to sum it up.

                  I will leave you with these eloquent words by Brendan Woodhouse:

                  “You show me a fighting aged male and I will show you a man who can work. Show me the man that you’re frightened of and I will show you a gentle soul who is scared. You show me an economic migrant, an invader or a crook, and I will show you a mirror. For we are all the sons and daughters of migrants. We, as people, have always moved. And we have all benefited from their misery.

                  In order for you to be rich, to buy cheap clothes and to talk on your phone, someone will slave for you. It is our ease of living that has made them poor. It is our exploitation that makes them run. Not just the West, but the rich all over. We are the creators of migration, the benefactors and the blind. We turn our eyes to their suffering yet expect them to take all that comes. We buy brands that exploit, and expect everything for cheap, cheap, cheap.

                  But when a boy, or a man can not see how they can survive, we expect them to drown silently in their poverty, whilst we book our holidays in the sun. And we will use our passports to fly to almost any destination on this earth. We, the rich can seek employment wherever we like, and we can just pop to Paris for a weekend away. But when the man who suffers for our opulence wants to do the same, we say no, don’t come, you should stay.

                  We, the creators of their misery, define ourselves as the victims of their pain. We cry and complain that someone steals the job that we’re too lazy to do. We take their oil, their minerals, their produce and their lives, yet it is ‘we’ who call ‘them’ the crooks. And it is we that call ourselves the victims of their pain. You say that they come for our welfare state, yet I’ve met thousands of people crossing this sea, and every single one of them wanted to work. Can you say that about the people back home? I certainly can’t!

                  You talk of losing our culture but when we can turn our backs to the poor, then I think it’s a culture that we can lose. You say that we should help our homeless first, yet when we see the man on the streets, we walk by. We each live in a blanket of self righteousness, myself included, stating that others should do something to change. Be it for the homeless, the lonely or the displaced, we form our opinions from the warmth and comfort of our homes.

                  But unless you have walked one mile in their shoes, then don’t tell them where they should go. For we are their reflection. We were all made the same. It is by chance that we were born with opportunity, as it is by chance that they were born in the dust. And it could be by chance that our choices are taken away. Their struggle is our struggle, for if it was not them, it would be us.

                  You think that leaving all that you have known is easy? You think that crossing that sea is a choice? Then you don’t know how many are lost to this journey. You don’t know the pain that they take. And if you want to talk about choices, then you should acknowledge that it is only us who can choose!

                  We have one life. Let’s not waste it on hate. Only love!


                  • RedLogix

                    OK those are fine sentiments. Now in practice how does this translate into immigration policy?

                    Does 'love' mean 'open borders'? Do you invite every homeless person you see into your home?

                    • Bruce

                      No not every, but do share my house with others who would struggle to find stable accomodation in the free market because I am privilaged enough to be able.

                    • WeTheBleeple

                      "Does 'love' mean 'open borders'? Do you invite every homeless person you see into your home?"

                      Do you make false equivalence? Still using the only brought up by you open borders nonsense?

                      I got some spare money recently. I took the money and gave it out to the homeless. What a fool I know as it's a bottomless ocean and we must build walls against the rising tide of brownies displaced by western extremity and extravagance.

                      But there's no such thing as spare money aye, the Rothschild's don't have enough yet so obviously we don't either. Who wants to cater for basic human needs when there's superyachts to be had.

                      We can't all sit at the top of the pyramid now, can we?

                      I could'a got 20 bricks and some mortar with that money, to wall off my heart.

                    • RedLogix

                      More power to you Bruce. Question though, is your generosity unlimited and unconstrained? Do you maintain some control over who you invite into your home and how they behave?

                      Or do you just let anyone who turns up stay as long as they like?

                  • Gabby

                    Let's go and fix their countries so they don't want to leave brooce. Prolly cheaper in the long run.

              • AB

                A reason, if not the only one.. 'The left' needs to say clearly that states have the right to secure borders and to set their own immigration policies. In fact these things are essential to creating viable socialist/social democratic societies that will work for everyone. We certainly need an international framework that discourages discrimination (race, religion etc.) in immigration policy, enforces humane treatment and includes an obligation to take a certain number of refugees. It would be desirable to have a mechanism whereby countries that create refugee crises by waging wars or imposing economic sanctions, pay reparations for their crimes. Problematic to implement though.

                Most importantly concerted global effort on climate change to minimise the expected refugee crisis. Fast forward 60 years – with 3 degrees of warming and boatloads of thousands of dying people washing ashore on Ninety Mile Beach. Our ability and inclination to be welcoming will be tested.

                • RedLogix

                  Good. That is the groundwork for something useful.

                  Borders are important. Neither totally open nor totally closed borders work. Like the cells of all living creatures they have to be selectively porous, allowing what is desired and necessary in, and repelling all else.

                  Just like everyone operates their own home … family, friends and guests are welcome, everyone else either negotiates or keeps out.

                  At the scale of the nation state these are not easy conversations; but tainting them with hand wringing, grandstanding and virtue signalling only makes them harder.

                  • WeTheBleeple

                    "hand wringing, grandstanding and virtue signalling only makes them harder."

                    More! What about wailing and gnashing of teeth?

                  • greywarshark

                    You are pathetic RL. Presenting yourself as a man of practicality, rolling up your sleeves to sort problems out. The world has been waiting for your pragmatic decisions. As if no-one understands the problems. If solving the difficulties was easy it would have been done already.

                    I suggest that you stop being a keyboard warrior and do some work assisting. Get to where you can do something physical and help solve the border problems and the unwished for immigration. You will find it is beyond your puny strength to do much, but every little helps the individuals presently being treated like a swarm of locusts.
                    You refer to a formal, federated world government. (At
                    10 am) Goodness gracious, the USA could be doing that with all the powers at their command. Does it occur to them to act in an intelligent and humane way as needed? We see it does not. And it never will do.

                    I have put up a comment and some info into what makes the Mexicans run. Such long standing embedded troubles can’t be lectured or wished away.

                    • RedLogix

                      Goodness gracious, the USA could be doing that with all the powers at their command. Does it occur to them to act in an intelligent and humane way as needed? We see it does not. And it never will do.

                      Yet at the end of WW2 they were instrumental in the formation of the United Nations. There are moments in history when unsuspected change is not only possible, but inevitable.

                      No-one imagined the fall of the Berlin Wall until it happened; yet now in hindsight most people understand the largely hidden forces that compelled it to happen.

                      As for your 'keyboard warrior' accusation; that is not the reason I am here. I'm not here to fight anyone or convince anyone of anything. I gave that conceit away years ago. Nor for that matter has anyone the faintest clue what I also do when I'm not typing here. While I've been more open about my own real time life here than most people, I've never explained how I usually multitask and that it's a bad assumption to imagine this is all I do. (It isn't necessarily a smart thing on my part, there have been more than a few occasions when I've mis-read something or gotten the sequence of a conversation wrong.)

                      It is also a bad assumption to think my ideas around global unity spring from nowhere, and that I lack sound evidence for them working at scale.


              • Jenny - How to Get there?

                Massive poorly controlled immigration is the only reason the left is dying across the entire world.


                You wish.

                We will not allow millions upon millions to die because of our actions.

                India: 50.6C degrees shows that we need to organize climate immigration to countries with cold weather.

                ……Countries such as Germany and New Zealand have already stated what measures will be taken (without any guarantee) untill 2050. But they are decisions based on the interests of companies and not the world population. Statements aimed at appeasing the impetus of children and young students who take to the streets of these countries in sad and desperate demonstrations and strikes, which should never happen if our civilization were intelligent and rational.

                But the children, the elderly, the peasants and the workers of India now live above the acceptable human limit. How to prove? A challenge is enough: which of the readers would be able to leave their mother or their young child in a fanless or without air conditioned room with a temperature ranging from 40C to 51C as it does in India? No conscious person would live in a similar situation of their own free will if he had another choice….

                ……The struggle to open borders for the people of India and climate immigration from now on must be part of the struggle of all the climate activists who today organize protests in a large number of countries around the globe. Particularly, I hope that from our small great leader, Greta Thunberg, and all the activists from Sweden, who gave rise to Fridays For Future.

                Tomi Mori, Japan.

                June 5, 2019.


    • JanM 3.2

      Predawn raids, eh. Takes me back to Auckland in the 70s 🙁

    • WeTheBleeple 3.3

      RL thinks it's all about choices. Living in a bubble. Are the unaccompanied children seeking sanctuary to blame? Do you think they deserve a concrete floor in a cage, no toiletries, no bed, vilification, beatings, rape…

      'He walked 150 miles north, making sure to skirt La Arrocera, a broad swath of scrubland known for migrant kidnappings and assaults. He slept on the doorstep of a church after finding the migrant shelter burned to the ground.'

      Many of the Merkins are an evil pack of pricks. And highly unlawful.

      Yet you are of the opinion the immigrants are merely 'people who have committed crimes'. A self-important, unfortunately typical right wing, and largely inhumane position.

      That which you condone speaks very clearly of who you are.

      Many of these people, a large number of whom are unaccompanied minors, are running for their lives.

      But what is a brown life worth to an American if they don’t come with their own garden tools, aye.

      • RedLogix 3.3.1

        Are you arguing that the USA/Mexican border should be open to anyone who decides to cross it because 'sanctuary'?

        If so then make the case honestly, instead of hiding behind the terrible plight of these children.

        • WeTheBleeple

          I aint hiding nothing. I aint being dishonest and fuck you for the accusation. You are the one who thinks the law trumps humanity.

          Fear over feelings, greed over gumption. The right wing way.

          • RedLogix

            Go on answer the question rather than venting at me.

            The law is how we do humanity on a collective scale. That's the point of it. If we don't like it or we think it's not working, then it should be changed.

            Breaking it however usually only leads to more inhumanity. Like what the parents of these children have done to them. As I said above, if I tried to enter the USA illegally and got my children involved there would be zero sympathy. As one of those awful white guys everyone hates, it would of course be all my fault.

            So rather than just telling me what a terrible person I must be, how about outlining exactly what changes you would make to fix this problem.

            • WeTheBleeple

              What a ridiculous statement

              " Like what the parents of these children have done to them."

              You mean when they were killed and shit, totally unacceptable! But I'm sure you have examples of bad brown parents to back this farcical crap.

              and this

              "The law is how we do humanity on a collective scale."

              The law is built by rich men for rich men. It protects wealth, not humanity. The humanitarian parts of it were hard fought for, not by rich men, but humanity. The rich try to remove the humanity from law at every opportunity.

              "hiding behind the terrible plight of these children."

              Really. You think their plight might be better if they were treated with humanity, you know, that thing you think the law stands for yet it also is used by you specifically, to dismiss the plight of these children.

              You're not worth my time.

              • RedLogix

                Everyone agrees that having these children in this situation is a recipe for tragedy … abusing me for it is completely misdirected anger.

                As is all the useless hand wringing in the absence of any actual solutions.

                • WeTheBleeple

                  You feel abused by me saying your statements are farcical crap, or saying you're not worth my time?

                  Where did the bad man touch you?

                  • RedLogix

                    So still not willing to commit to an actual solution. What would YOU do to help this situation.

                    • Ad

                      It would be a good start if NZ Labour stuck to their election promises from only 2 years ago and brought immigration down by tens of thousands.

                      If they completed that promise, they would not need New Zealand First to prop them up because they would suck NZFirst into a husk.

                      More seasonal workers from poor Pacific Islands is great. But not more than that.

                    • Poission

                      If they stuck to their policy,we would not need 10000 extra houses per year,and it would constrain the growth of cars by around 20000.


                    • marty mars

                      whew ad thank god no one listens to you and your ideas

                    • Jenny - How to Get there?

                      “More seasonal workers from poor Pacific Islands is great. But not more than that.”


                      If people are good enough to work here then they are good enough to live here.

                      Why does it not surprise me that you support this form of legalised bonded labour, which has led to so much injustice and exploitation.

        • greywarshark

          You reveal yourself RL as steeped in certainties you have devised and then there is no need to range around looking at other factors.

          The Mexican border situation has no doubt been examined and written about in documents that would fill a room, on discs that would line a cupboard. If there is someone who visits this blog who can give us a rundown of 200 words even I invite them to do so as comment as a blog member.

          If that person would like to do a post giving the Mexican view, then please suggest it to the Standard. I think there is interest in guest posts.

          Mexico has been dominated by the USA and warped by it finding a ready market for illegal drugs there. The country has been decimated by corruption because of that. If the USA changed its drug laws to medicalise the problem, and to allow home-grown and organised cannabis growing, the high prices would go down and the Mexican trade would gradually plateau and stabilise.

          Here is some background on Mexicans' difficulties.

          Manufacturing in Mexico grew rapidly in the late 1960s with the end of the US farm labor agreement known as the bracero program. This sent many unskilled farm laborers back into the Northern border region with no source of income. As a result, the US and Mexican governments agreed to The Border Industrialization Program, which permitted US companies to assemble product in Mexico using raw materials and components from the US with reduced duties. The Border Industrialization Program became known popularly as The Maquiladora Program or shortened to The Maquila Program.

          Background from Huffington Post.

          Carlos Slim, the richest man in the world, rules 80% of the landline telephone services in Mexico and 70% of the mobile ones, according to Moody’s, the economy ratings researcher. Moreover, Emilio Azcárraga, the owner of Televisa, captures 80% of the media. At the same time, Germán Larrea and Alberto Bailleres (the latter recently awarded with the Belisario Domínguez medal) are the owners of all the mining sector with Grupo Minera México and Industrias Peñoles. And the same thing happens with construction markets, banking, food service and even with drugs, when in 2011, Forbes included the impoverished drug lord Joaquín Guzmán Loera “El Chapo” in the list of the wealthiest people in the country with a fortune of 1 billion dollars. One position above the owner of Banamex, Alfredo Harp Helú.

          Assessing how Mexican men and women consider the good and bad of aid to help them if in poverty,

          • RedLogix

            I think I mentioned this before; in my last job I had a Mexican colleague whom I got reasonably close to. His life story would make your ears bleed. On another occasion I worked three weeks in Central Mexico and while it was a very short visit and I only saw a narrow slice of a relatively safe part of the country, the security and paranoia of everyday life was palpable.

            So don't lecture me about the difficulties Mexico faces. All I want is someone to make the honest and open argument that the solution to all these problems is for the USA to open it's border with Mexico.

            Because interestingly enough this is exactly what my Mexican friend argued for; he sincerely wanted the Mexican states closest to the USA border to become part of the USA, effectively moving the international border south. And he made a good logical case for it.

            • The Al1en

              So don't lecture me about the difficulties Mexico faces.

              Yeah, 'cause you went there for three weeks and worked with a Mexican. 🙄

              I don't believe anyone is arguing for open borders, so to keep requesting they say it as a foil to your position is a bit stupid. I assume what most people are wanting is the immigrants, once there, to be treated humanely, ie, not having children put in cages.

              • RedLogix

                Legal immigrants don't get their children separated from them.

                • The Al1en

                  So your hung up about the legality aspect of really poor, under threat of pain, death or oppression, not going through official channels in order to get safety for them or their families and the chance of a better life.

                  Well that makes putting kids in cages all right then.

                  • RedLogix

                    No I'm not saying it's a good thing to separate children from their parents. That's a perverse strawman; no-one wants that.

                    But arguing that refugees should be able to turn up at any international border and cross to safety with no consequence is practically indistinguishable from an open border.

                    • The Al1en

                      So with a natural disaster, war or famine, you're saying people shouldn't make for a safe haven, but stay put because there are consequences of having closed borders. Fuck me, you're gonna be shitting it when all the climate change refugees come a knocking.

                      The thing with illegal is that it's subjective, despite even the letter of the law. We all know stealing is wrong, but I'd never condemn someone for pinching a loaf of bread to feed their kids. In the current climate fostered by the us government, where the president calls out caravans of rapists and murderers, I wouldn't bother with a checkpoint either.

                      I guess you can wank off and clutch your pears about open borders and the law, take pot shots at the lefties with a conscience, but at the end of the day, if enough people come, there isn't a wall high enough or enough like you to stop them.

                    • RedLogix

                      but at the end of the day, if enough people come, there isn't a wall high enough or enough like you to stop them.

                      OK that sounds absolutely the same as an open border. If not tell me the difference.

                      In that case why demand the just USA has open borders. Why not say Mexico, or China, or Saudi Arabia … hell there are over 200 countries in the world. Most of them are safe enough. Just let people wander wherever they want.

                      It's not an unreasonable argument, I just want you to make the case for it openly and honestly.

                      We all know stealing is wrong, but I’d never condemn someone for pinching a loaf of bread to feed their kids.

                      Fine with a few loaves of bread. What about a whole vanload? Is there some minimum threshold of criminality that’s justified here?

                    • The Al1en

                      Irrelevant what you call it, what point you think you're making and to who, or how much resolution you achieve from it… I'm not your sticky sock. Why should I care?

                      These people are refugees and deserve to be treated humanely while the undesirables are sifted out.

                    • Robert Guyton

                      "clutch your pears"

                      Lovin' it!

                    • The Al1en

                      "clutch your pears"

                      Lovin' it!

                      There should be spell check apple for that sort of thing lol

                • Sabine

                  actually yes they do.

                  Cause up until now seeking refuge at a legal port of entry is still legal in the US.

                  But then surely you would have no issues taking baby jesus from mary and joseph and admonish them for running away from King Herodes and his henchman who killed all the baby boys to prevent the king of israel to come of age.







                  • RedLogix

                    King Herodes and his henchman who killed all the baby boys to prevent the king of israel to come of age.

                    Last I looked Trump isn't ordering the murder of all immigrant's first born. Although it would surprise me if some of the more rabid left will try this on.

                    Otherwise the links you provide all helpfully (yes I read them) outline the general process of claiming asylum in the USA. As with almost all other countries, it is not granted automatically. There is a process, and one that the host country gets to determine. Trump's administration has tightened up on it substantially as claiming asylum is an obvious ploy to bypass normal immigration procedures. Again the USA does not have this problem on it's own.

                    Originally asylum was a relatively uncommon process that only a relative handful of people applied for in what were usually clearcut circumstances. Over time it's range of applicability has extended greatly and the numbers of people are no longer insignificant.

                    Increasingly the distinction between a legitimate asylum seeker and an economic migrant attempting to bypass normal process has become less obvious. It's even more difficult to assess when the person claiming it has traveled through other 'safe' countries, but with far less desirable economic prospects to settle in. This naturally tests the willingness of desirable host nations to uphold their end of the deal without limit.

                    For obvious enforcement reasons, the USA is generally unwilling to allow entry to people without documentation, and without their status being clarified first. It's a large country and it's far too easy to disappear in. Ultimately undocumented arrivals are going to be detained for a period. And if charged they will be imprisoned for another period before being deported.

                    The question simply is, should their children be imprisoned alongside the adults or should they be looked after separately. There are merits to both arrangements, and obvious downsides as well.

                    But one of the options is not "oh dear you have children with you, we'll just have to give you a free pass".

            • WeTheBleeple

              Nobody has said to open the border up. This is you making shit up, putting words in mouths that aren't saying any such thing.

              "But as of April, children have been separated from their parents with much higher frequency, which has led to the creation of “tent cities” to hold thousands of separated children. Those beds cost $775 per person per night, HHS told NBC News."

              For that price you could have them in 5 star accommodation with room service.

              Very poorly managed. Atrocious some might say. But there’s a buck to be made, aye.

              • RedLogix

                Yup, we know the numbers of people arriving at the border has increased substantially and the demand on these facilities has probably increased beyond what was planned for. It's completely unsurprising that they aren't being managed as well as they could be.

                That's one of the worst aspects of Trump's regime, he's weakened the leadership and lines of accountability in the Federal govt so that this sort of thing is more likely to happen. Still the people running these facilities are likely not monsters, they're doing their best to handle a very shitty job with the resources they have.

                But if parents drag their children into this mess, we do not get to complain about them being 'separated'. As pointed out elsewhere this has been standard US practice for a very long time, well before Trump.

                The root causes of this mess are complex and way deeper than just Trump; it irks me to see it exploited just to vent.

                • WeTheBleeple

                  "But if parents drag their children into this mess"

                  You are so dishonest. A reasoning facade for utterly vile sentiments. Adopt a story to fit your narrative (which you've not supplied yet, as it's strategic not to openly bash the brownies, just make broad statements about their parenting instead).

                  Already stated they're often running for their lives, but lives mean nothing to THE LAW. Pfft.

                  The money available suggests there are plenty of options and opportunities to raise standards.

                  But not if an accountant is in charge. Contracters will buy sports cars from this, for the economy!

                  That's about all the bullshit I can stomach for one day. Good luck convincing people we're calling for open borders due to giving a shit.

                  • RedLogix

                    Already stated they're often running for their lives

                    What all the way through three or four Central American states?

                    The dishonesty here is people saying these people should be able to illegally cross the border as 'migrants' and face no consequence. That is directly equivalent to an open border, just without anyone saying so.

                    • Macro

                      Warren Binford:

                      Almost none of the children that we interviewed had come across the border themselves alone.

                      Essentially, they came across the border with family. And they are trying to be reunited with family who are living in the United States. Almost every child that I interviewed had family, parents, uncles, aunts, grandparents, siblings here in the United States who are waiting for them and are ready to care for them.
                      Warren Binford:

                      You know, the goal for all of these children is eventually to place them with their family.

                      The facilities that you’re saying they’re supposed to be transferred to, those are not required by law. That’s just the way that the administration is doing it. These children can be placed with their families immediately, if we wanted to do that.

                      And so, basically, what we’re doing is, we’re taking children away from their family at the border. We’re putting them in inhumane conditions in Border Patrol facilities, where they shouldn’t be at all, not even for a few hours. And that 72 hours, that’s the maximum that someone is supposed to be kept there.

                      And the children are supposed to be moved through these facilities as expeditiously as possible.

                    • RedLogix

                      Well that's a relief. Send them off to their families already legally in the USA and problem sorted.

                      Can you imagine any unintended consequences from this however?

                      The USA, like most other developed Western nations, has an ongoing problem with illegal immigration. And as Europe has discovered, the difference between refugees and economic migrants isn't always obvious. And the demand is essentially endless.

                      Dealing with this humanely is a terrible challenge; it goes well beyond Trump.

          • Ad

            Carlos Slim has no relevance to an immigration debate for the US.

            What matters is any policy that's different from Trump's approach.

            The most developed one is that advanced by previous President Obama.

            The first of those was the Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals (DACA) programme.

            To be eligible, applicants had to have arrived in the US before age 16 and have lived there since June 15, 2007. They could not have been older than 30 when the Department of Homeland Security enacted the policy in 2012. It was a deferral of action rather than a pathway to citizenship.

            But the killing of Merrick Garland’s shot at the Supreme Court meant there wouldn't have been a majority in the Supreme Court to defend it, and then Trump actively killed it.

            Democrats have this year passed the Dream and Promise Act that would provide a full pathway to citizenship for about one million undocumented migrants within the US. Most of them are Mexicans.

            It was killed off by Republicans in majority in the Senate.

            It most certainly would have been vetoed by Trump if it had got any further.

            Major immigration reform that is more generous to central America would require, for a start:

            – a hard liberal tilt to the Supreme Court (probably 3 retirements)

            – a Democrat majority in both the House of Congress and the Senate

            – a Democratic President

            – top to bottom reform of ICE (which would take most of a term)

            Not going to happen any time soon, in short.

            And nor will the US allow strong UN scrutiny, to get amplified through the global media. They may be mean but they're not dumb.

            If there's a Democrat strengthening in either Congress or Senate you might get some softening of enforcement. But otherwise liberal immigration policy is a knife through any campaign other than in the state of California.

            • RedLogix

              But otherwise liberal immigration policy is a knife through any campaign other than in the state of California.

              Exactly. You have to understand what you're up against before you stand a chance of fixing it. And the reason why this is, that the American working class, and increasingly their shrinking middle class, are not in the mood to be generous. People feeling under pressure, threat and insecurity themselves are much less likely to be open to more immigration.

              Trump understood this perfectly, he understood the depth of betrayal felt towards the liberal elites and Democrats in particular. He exploited it mercilessly.

              This is why it pisses me off when lefties sneer at Trump and underestimate how efficiently ruthless he has been. Hell we wasn't supposed to get past the first primaries, then he won them, then he won through to President, then he survived more the first year, then he wasn't going to survive Russiagate … and on and on. And still we whine about how unfair it all is.

              Ad is on the money. Stop insulting the people who voted Trump, stop treating them as ignorant, racist rednecks, stop sneering at the 'flyover states' and win back their trust to the extent possible. Interestingly candidates like Andrew Yang are doing just this, going directly to the working class vote and talking to them intelligently.

  4. Pat 4

    "The Bill does not introduce any policies to actually cut emissions: New Zealand has very few policies to implement this bill," it said.


    And wont for some time to come…..time, something we cant produce.

  5. ianmac 5

    In this day of precise tracking you would think there would have been a precise location for the downed drone. Within a few centimetres. Of course the USA would claim International waters but, but…

    • Cinny 5.1

      But, but.. dodgy as situation. Apparently the drone had been flying around for 4 hours sending back intel in real time before being taken out.

      Apparently there was a second aircraft… but USA doesn't want to talk about it…

      Iran's elite Revolutionary Guard Corps (IRGC) said on Friday that a second manned US aircraft was flying close to the Navy RQ-4 Global Hawk that was downed, but said Iranian forces chose not to attack the plane as it carried about 35 crew. There has been no comment by the US about a second manned aircraft.


      • WeTheBleeple 5.1.1

        Well you can't paint them as evil and irrational nuke toting lunatics hellbent on the destruction of the west when they display humanity now, can you.

        The propaganda must be upheld.

        Bet the US is ruing the day they ever let the pesky internet out of the bag.

      • Gabby 5.1.2

        Thy'll have bits of the drone no doubt, to prove it wasn't splashed in international waters like.

    • fustercluck 5.2

      So Trump declines a military attack that would have killed scores of people over an unmanned drone and this blog cannot give him any credit for showing restraint. He clearly articulates proportionality and reason and the ostensibly anti-war left is silent on this display of discretion. Typical. You people need your Hitler and will not acknowledge any examples of behaviour that contradicts your Drumph is worse than Satan illusions.

      • WeTheBleeple 5.2.1

        You mean the strike he recalled after calling it? Very big of him.

        • fustercluck

          Bleep, you are making shit up as you go along. And I think the people who were not killed would be pretty happy about it, no matter the stage of deployment.

        • Macro


          • RedLogix

            Note the trick being played here; the reader is assumed to be a nice good person, one of the "Us", while the bad people are othered as "Trump Supporters".

            It's a transparent ploy and the use of it by Clinton (deplorables) is one of the reasons Trump won in the first place.

            • Macro


              • RedLogix

                The reason why Trump won was the polarisation and uber-partisanship of the US electorate. Trump is an incompetent, narcissistic con-man; and many of the people who voted for him knew this to some degree. At least the handful I've spoken to first hand have said as much.

                Yet they preferred to vote for him than Clinton, often against their obvious class interests.

                Some of it will be an innate conservatism, some parts of the USA are not ready for a woman President, some of it will be racist, although at least some of the same people voted Obama.

                It's my view the core reason is because the Democrats and Clinton had alienated them in their own homeland. The 'deplorables' comment was only the tip of a very deep iceberg of contempt and disrespect the coastal elites had dumped on them for several decades. The gutting of their economic life, the sneering condescension labeling their concerns and social conservatism as racist and misogynist, the constant exclusion and othering was the reason why Clinton lost the unlosable election.

                Trump really is as blatant and manipulative as your link shows, he truly demonstrates that once a people lose respect for the truth, and lies become the common currency … then trust is destroyed. Without trust a nation fast descends into dysfunction.

            • WeTheBleeple

              "I'm here in Texas, to try understand why alpha males need a support group. [accent mine]

              "We've recognised that there is a role for men"

              Masturbatory celibates Bwahaaa! They control their impulses – except for sexism and racism and violence and being fucking tards.

              "There is a war on masculinity going on in the west"

              Trump supporters, gotta love em. Misunderstood and all that.


                • WeTheBleeple

                  So you didn't have time to watch the video. But you are smugly deflecting from it. Here's a quote from right near the end, as it is in relation to your video too:

                  "You can't have a great civilisation, without the men who built it."


                  Hope they enjoy their beloved leader's environmental rollbacks. America will be a total shithole before they're grown. And that's without the climate change results of their 'great civilisation.'

                  Humans are cancer?

                  I've heard some of them are very fine people indeed.

                  • RedLogix

                    Did you imagine I couldn't couldn't build a bigger, battier strawman than you if I needed to?

                    • WeTheBleeple

                      Proud boys are not straw men, they're noodles.

                      When it comes to engineering and tech, I place high value on your input. Here, well, you are not a people person are you, unless the tie is right.

                      At one stage you say its the refugees (let's use the right term here) should take responsibility for the lack of human rights they receive. Because THE LAW.

                      Then, you say it's the left's fault for helping Trump into office.


                      Then it clicked. AH! – this is the personal responsibility the right wing always go on and on about (if you say it often enough, it must be so).

                      Trump gets in, the left must take responsibility. Children get caged, the parents must take responsibility.

                      Not the people caging kids, nor the people voting Trump…

                      They get a free pass as being right wing they are obviously already very fine people indeed.

                      Proud boy proud.

                    • RedLogix

                      Here, well, you are not a people person are you, unless the tie is right.

                      I'm definitely not given to telling people what they want to hear; but then neither are you when it comes to it. You feel perfectly entitled to offend me and I've not objected to that.

                      At one stage you say its the refugees (let's use the right term here)

                      Anyone can claim to be a refugee, but it is up to the nation they are trying to enter to determine whether their claim to asylum is legitimate or not. (Or the UNHCR may be involved.) If you can think of an alternative arrangement I'm all ears.

                      Trump gets in, the left must take responsibility.

                      Giving Trump sole responsibility for winning however gives him way too much credit.

                      Children get caged, the parents must take responsibility.

                      So far the left has remained utterly silent on this point, as if it didn't exist at all. The obvious truth is that if these people had not involved their children, then none of them would be in this awful detention. General US policy is to avoid imprisoning children alongside their parents, as it has been successfully argued elsewhere this amounts to punishing them for crimes they are innocent of. Again this is not necessarily something Trump dreamed up just to be a nasty man.

                      But in wider terms yes, I've frequently argued that rights and responsibilities both complement and balance each other. Your rights almost by definition, entail my responsibility in some form. This is a very old line of thought common to all the major religions. No need to invoke some fleeting fad to explain it.

                  • Poission

                    Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell.

                    Edward Abbey


            • Muttonbird

              Rubbish. The reader is anyone. It's you, the Trump guy, who takes offence.

              • RedLogix

                Link to anywhere I have said that I openly support Trump.

                My argument is that the left, being so possessed of it's intellectual and moral superiority (which is virtually indistinguishable from racial superiority), totally underestimated Trump right from the outset. Right when he declared as a candidate he was treated as a joke; yet here we are four years later living with the consequences of this terrible mistake.

                Trump is an awful President, he's utterly unfit for the office and arguably the worst they've ever had. The only thing worse is a regressive left utterly unwilling to acknowledge the role they played in putting him into power.

                • KJT

                  Isn't calling the US democrats "left" a bit of a stretch.

                  Trump, or almost anything but BAU, seemed a better alternative because the Democrats have abandoned the "left" and embraced the kleptocracy, just like the GOP.

                  • RedLogix

                    I'd actually agree with that; and especially after the GFC it drove a deep cynicism through the entire US electorate toward the political establishment as a whole. Although it could not have been the sole cause, because if it was then as you say the GOP would have been equally if not more repugnant.

                    2016 was always going to be an outsider's election, wide open to a candidate who could connect directly with the electorate, bypassing the BAU Party messaging. It was either going to be someone principled like Sanders (who I supported strongly) or a populist like Trump.

                • Sabine

                  oh dear. are you upset that your supporting of the inhumane treatment of children as little as 4 month old in trumps refugee concentration camps might makes other people think that you might be a closeted Trumpster?

                  oh ….sad!

                  • RedLogix

                    For a start they are not Trump's concentration camps. They predate him by a long way.

                    For a second they are not concentration camps; comparing these detention centres with Nazi death camps is weak at best.

                    For a third nowhere do I support the children being in these places; they shouldn't be there.

                    The problem arises because the USA is now enforcing long standing law, detaining the parents of these children, and charging them for first time offenses. Just like you or I might be if we tried to enter the USA illegally. But because their children are not charged with a crime they are not permitted to be jailed together.

                    Unless you think the children should be returned to the border and set loose with no protection at all, or alternatively imprisoned with other adults and punished along with their parents, then inevitably the US authorities will have to house them somewhere until something can be sorted out for them.

                    It's a highly undesirable situation and everyone agrees on this.


                    • Sabine

                      These are Trumps concentration camps especially these new ones.


                      but you could state that he is for once trhifty in re-purposing or re-opening the old concentration camps for japanese americans during the second world war.

                      2. concentration camps definition (Merriam Webster)


                      Definition of concentration camp

                      : a place where large numbers of people (such as prisoners of war, political prisoners, refugees, or the members of an ethnic or religious minority) are detained or confined under armed guard —used especially in reference to camps created by the Nazis in World War II for the internment and persecution of Jews and other prisoners

                      vs Death Camps ( as in use in Nazi Germany)

                      (Merriam Webster)


                      Definition of death camp

                      : a concentration camp in which large numbers of prisoners are systematically killed

                      and generally speaking all the death camps that existed on this planet be they german or other all started as a concentration camp.

                      and i leave you with this – something smarter people then i said so well.

                      for evil to exist good man must do nothing

                      Bad laws are the worst sort of tyranny

                      and me thinks you doth protest much.

                      and last but least, it is legal in the US to come to a legal port of entry and claim asylum. Non of these people have broken the law by showing up at a border post claiming asylum. No matter how much you want to pretend and lie about them breaking the law.

                    • RedLogix

                      and last but least, it is legal in the US to come to a legal port of entry and claim asylum.

                      True, but then again it is up to the host nation to decide how to then process you. Just claiming asylum is not an automatic free entry, totally bypassing normal immigration processes. If not then everyone could simply enter any nation by smiling broadly, say "Aslym" loudly and walk on past everyone else who have to produce legal things like passports and visas.

                      The USA has long had the policy of detaining anyone entering the country undocumented, whether they claim asylum or not, for very practical enforcement reasons. If they are not deemed to be legitimate asylum seekers then they are imprisoned for illegal immigration offenses. None of this is new, except that the Trump administration tightened up by charging first time offenders, thereby increasing the numbers substantially.

                      This is no defense of Trump. The story on the Mexican border has always been ugly, but like Russiagate, it's the wrong thing to attack him on.

                    • Sabine

                      you claim this is ‘not’ a defense of the shartcannon – yet you have done nothing but defended him and his children concentration camps and the abuses therein committed by the children concentration camp jailers.

                      This is no defense of Trump. The story on the Mexican border has always been ugly, but like Russiagate, it's the wrong thing to attack him .

                      No it is not wrong to attack him on what is the consequence of his government, the doing of his government, the consequence of his 'rhetoric' 'aka all Mexicans are rapists and murderers' (golden elevator and all), it is the consequence of the work his employees do, his acting Secretery of this and that, hiss underlings and his signature on any piece of toilet paper that he waves. (nothing he signs has any value what so ever, he will change his mind, think he did not get enough of a deal etc and will just wipe his arse with what ever he agreed too). It is correct to attack him as the buck stops with him. If in your prison 5 people would have died since December 2018 we would argue that a. you don't do your job and are responsible, or b. you do your job and it is your employer who is responsible, c. you do your job, see nothing wrong with the illegal orders and support and defend your employer – you choose, after all its your prison and your job. And in the US at least 5 kids have died in Trumps concentration camps for kids (two in december and three since)



                      as for the russian crap, never commented on it, never will. but yeah, nice try of deflection.

                      I still think you do protest much, and you are promoting human rights abuses on children as little as 4 month old cause 'law and order' and other assorted bullshit – even tho they have a legal right to do what they do, and you are flat out lying about their rights.. Go check your morality and above all go ask yourself whom would Jesus – the son of refugee seeking people, who left their country to protect their toddler son from the baby boy murdering hordes of King Herodes lock up in a camp without beds, 900 in a room fit for 125 and so on. Or maybe even better, go have a discussion with your priest/chaplain/preacher. Cause you seem to have lost something somewhere and that would be common decency.

                    • RedLogix

                      Cause you seem to have lost something somewhere and that would be common decency.

                      It's a common mistake on the left to confuse loud virtue signalling with decency. It's also very common when you have no argument to make the attack personal. Every time we do that, we just broadcast our weakness and lack of effective solutions.

                      The question of undocumented migrants turning up at the Mexican border long predates Trump. Hell I've seen it for myself back in the 90's. For many years the numbers were not so large and the politicians ignored it for the most part. But as the years went by the cumulative impact became more apparent, and their rate of arrival grew. Along with serious drug and crime problems, it became an issue ripe for a populist like Trump to exploit. For him it was a low-hanging fruit waiting to fall.

                      Logically there are the following broad options for responding to this.

                      1. Total compassion. Everyone who turns up at the border claiming to be a refugee is granted automatic citizenship, free entry and as many ponies as they like. Very humane, very decent. Left wing purity compass screwed on tight.

                      2. Other extreme, build a wall and repel all boarders. Not very pretty but it does have the great merit of no children being held in custody. Although quite a few might die in the desert.

                      3. Middle path, detain them as they arrive and determine what to do with them. Some will be bona fide refugees and can be granted asylum, but it's not reasonable to think everyone who turns up will be.

                      In the meantime if the parents are held in custody for either processing or have been charged, then either you hold the children in the same prison with adults (which has it's own obvious risks) or you need to keep them relatively safe somewhere else until you can determine what to do with them on a case by case basis.

                      Obviously neither case is ideal, but my challenge to everyone here who thinks this is so very obvious… would YOU walk YOUR children over the USA/Mexican border undocumented, knowing all this will very likely happen to them?

                      You can argue unconstrained sympathy for their often desperate plight if you want, but that really amounts to reverting to Option 1, open border for anyone who claims asylum. It's not a bad choice, but then you have to convince the American people it's a good idea. They get to vote on it after all.

                    • Sabine

                      you say

                      Logically there are the following broad options for responding to this.

                      1. Total compassion. Everyone who turns up at the border claiming to be a refugee is granted automatic citizenship, free entry and as many ponies as they like. Very humane, very decent. Left wing purity compass screwed on tight.

                      bullshit : People arrive at the border claim asylum. boarder patrol takes names, photos, copies of passports and send to processing. Maximum held time allowed currently: 76 hours. After this time a few things already can be established, i.e. any relatives in the country, and address/sponsor etc, any issues from the country of origin (i.e. criminal back ground check), families can be held together – mother /child, men / boys, women/girls until the holding times runs out and people are either a. deported, b. send ot relatives until a hearing is convened, c. get send to refugees organisations. (as was done under the previous republican and democratic presidencies, in fact Obama was taken to court in regards to family detention – but that was Obama and that is a different standard).

                      But you can also hold them in pens without beds, with lights on 24 hours, without blanket and with people dying and becoming ill with transmittable diseases and MAGA!

                      2. Other extreme, build a wall and repel all boarders. Not very pretty but it does have the great merit of no children being held in custody. Although quite a few might die in the desert.

                      Bullshit; Wall already exists and has been doing so for quite a few years. Many have already died, hence why you have do gooders leave water/food/maps etc in the desert for people to survive. Something that you can now be charged with a felony and up to 20 years in Prison. MAGA!

                      3. Middle path, detain them as they arrive and determine what to do with them. Some will be bona fide refugees and can be granted asylum, but it's not reasonable to think everyone who turns up will be.

                      Bullshit: Cause currently ALL who arrive are detained, have their children taken from them irrespective of age, are being separated from their children sometimes even deported without them as the jailers can't even be asked to run a proper ledger of the children they kidnap. Thus thousands in the system with no names to them, their relatives, anything. Two year old toddlers are notoriously bad at memorising adresses.

                      Never mind, you have spend many many words today defending the abuse of children under the guise of law and to be honest its just yuck.

                    • RedLogix

                      And you have just spent many bolded letters proving you haven't read a word I said.

                      The USA does not routinely permit undocumented people entry into the country without detention. It's far too easy to just disappear in a large country; already there are many millions of undocumented people living in the USA and quite reasonably they don't want this situation to expand without limit.

                      Fact-checkers say that the only thing that has changed is the Justice Department's decision to criminally prosecute parents for a first-time border crossing offence. Because their children are not charged with a crime, they are not permitted to be jailed together.

                      Under a 1997 court decision known as the Flores settlement, children who come to the US alone are required to be released to their parents, an adult relative, or other caretaker.

                      If those options are all exhausted, then the government must find the "least restrictive" setting for the child "without unnecessary delay".

                      The case initially applied to unaccompanied child arrivals, but a 2016 court decision expanded it to include children brought with their parents.

                      According to the New York Times, the government has three options under the Flores settlement – release whole families together, pass a law to allow for families to be detained together, or break up families.


                      The first option of releasing whole families together is not going to mean free entry to the USA, it will mean deportation back over the border. Where experience informs everyone that they will attempt to recross and hope to evade border controls as millions have done before them.

                      The second option of detaining families together is reasonable if you have the facilities to manage it properly. However putting children into adult prisons is a fraught exercise in it's own right, and is currently not legal.

                      The third option is what they have defaulted to out of sheer political gridlock. Given the increasing numbers involved, this was always going to be ugly, and the current regime has no political motivation to do a competent job of it. I'm certainly not defending the mess. No other nation separates families like this and it arises because the Federal govt has become incapable of making rational decisions. The hyper-partisanship of Washington breeds fuckups like this.

                      Such is the noise that it’s hard not to think that it’s more important to some liberal activists to use these children’s plight to bash Trump, than to achieve a humane outcome for them.

                      But as I keep pointing out, short of effectively opening the border to all comers and making the problem go away … the USA by itself has no good solutions to the problem of tens of thousands of people wanting to migrate to the better life it offers. This problem is way bigger than Trump and his incompetence.

                • WeTheBleeple

                  Yes that's obviously a great argument if you're five years old.

                  "We did it?"

                  Yes, and no supper!


          • ianmac

            Brilliant thanks Macro.

        • Gabby

          Jeepers bleepers, better than not recalling it.

      • Observer Tokoroa 5.2.2

        Hello Mrs and Mr fustercluck

        Seeing as you are so close to the President of the United States, and seeing he is a wonderful wonderful person, could you ask the President to return the children he has separated from their parents?

        I know it could only have been for the betterment of the President, but separating them from their parents forever is not what Nature intends.

        Do You and Mrs fustercluck do the separations on behalf of the President? Take some of the work load off him ?

        Could you give me the name of the most recent child that you separated from its parent? Or have you never given the separated kids a name?

        Many Thanks

        • fustercluck

          The separation of children from parents who break the law is pretty ordinary worldwide. Putting kids in "cages" was extant in Obama's time and leftists gave it a pass (see: https://qz.com/1291470/photos-immigrant-children-detained-at-the-placement-center-in-2014/).

          There is abundant human trafficking, including children being sold for sex and child pornography happening all over the USA southern border. It is simple child welfare practice to take steps to protect kids and obtain evidence that those adults with whom they are apprehended committing a felony (unlawful crossing of an international border) are actually their parents or guardians and actually have their best interests at least somewhat in mind.

          The entire "Trump is separating families" canard is bullshit. If you were on the USA southern border, facing drug cartels, human smugglers, a catastrophic level of rape, murder, etc., you would as a matter of first priority take all kids to a safe place and try to figure out what is going on with them and why they were being dragged across a border. To suggest otherwise is simply stupid. Or perhaps an endorsement of the pedophiles who seek to exploit at least some of these vulnerable kids.

          • WeTheBleeple

            If Obama did it too it makes it all worse, not better.

            Both Favreau and Muñoz argued that the Trump administration’s policy of separating families at the border is different from the Obama administration’s handling of unaccompanied children.

            “This policy is new, cruel, and unprecedented,” Favreau tweeted. “It was not an Obama policy. It was not a Bush policy. It was not a Clinton policy. That is a fact. And that is what all of us – Democrats and Republicans – should want changed as soon as humanly possible.”



            There's an expert on concentration camps, try reading something longer that a Trump tweet.

            Concentration camps, you know, that term you've tried call TS members liars over.

          • Observer Tokoroa

            Hi Clusterfuck

            Yes – I am aware that as you say lots of kids don't get far. They get blasted off the face of the planet.

            America and Britain are good at killing women and children. They obviously are the kings of queens of death. They train very hard to be the best Killers.

            But as you say, Every one does it, so why not Mr trump and Mrs Trump. It's a good thing to murder kids. After all Americans and English people are civilised. They have the right to do anything to anyone at any time.

            I am glad the Asians are getting their act together so well. Trump knows he can't match them. And that will save a few lives.


            • fustercluck

              I am sick and tired of straw man arguments.

              I said that it is reasonable to separate kids from the adults they illegally cross an international border with, especially given the human trafficking, drug smuggling, rape and murder that are rampant along the USA southern border.

              You go off on a tangent about blasting and killing kids.

              I think we can all agree that killing kids is not good.

              I think we can also agree that blindly leaving kids with cartels, smugglers and rapists is to be avoided too. Hence, law enforcement must separate the kids from the adults until facts are ascertained.

              Do you disagree with doing this?

              I suppose you support leaving kids with pedophiles, human traffickers, and the like?

              • Macro

                Yeah! Much better to kidnap them, then take them to the camps where they can be sexually abused in peace.

                WASHINGTON — Thousands of accusations of sexual abuse and harassment of migrant children in government-funded shelters were made over the past four years, including scores directed against adult staff members, according to federal data released Tuesday.

                The cases include allegations of inappropriate touching, staff members allegedly watching minors while they bathed and showing pornographic videos to minors. Some of the allegations included inappropriate conduct by minors in shelters against other minors, as well as by staff members.

                Rep. Ted Deutch, D-Fla., released the Health and Human Services Department data during a hearing on the Trump administration’s policy of family separations at the border. The data span both the Obama and Trump administrations. The figures were first reported by Axios.

                From October 2014 to July 2018, the Office of Refugee Resettlement, a part of Health and Human Services, received 4,556 complaints. The Department of Justice received an additional 1,303 complaints, including 178 allegations of sexual abuse by adult staff.


      • Cinny 5.2.3

        trumps narrative on the surface appears like he is the good guy….. didn't attack because 150 people would have been killed. A lovely rhetoric in his election cycle.

        However his apparent provocation towards war as per his current military movements in said zone speaks a different story. War kills more than 150 people and USA military movements appear to be encouraging war by baiting Iran.

        His behaviour is of interest, but not praise worthy until more facts are revealed. This is due to his outstanding record of lies.


        So I just googled ‘trump lies’ and look what came up, article is 7 hours old and via Washington Post, link below…

        Trump’s Iran reversal exposes one of his most dangerous lies

      • AB 5.2.4

        Yes – Trump has done the right thing for now. And ideally someone can get in his ear and persuade him to sack Bolton and Pompeo who have cooked up this pack of lies. The problem with Trump though is that there is a sense that anything good he does is inadvertent – and will be followed by something terrible a day later.

        I assume that he remembers what his base wants (no new wars) and that he promised them that in 2016. If Trump can spin himself as the guy who avoided war with Iran (after nearly provoking it the first place, though he won't mention that) then he is going to get a bump in support. And in fact – if that was his strategy all along, then he may actually be the 'stable genius' he claims to be.

      • mauī 5.2.5

        Trump is merely toying with the left yet again.

        There was similar lefty outrage over the raised Mexican tariffs, yet that has prompted Mexico to help with the migration issue and work towards solving the problem.

        • Macro


          The so-called "new" initiatives had been agreed between The US and Mexico weeks previously. There was nothing new in it. That has been reported by numerous sources, and was evidenced by the piece of paper Trump held in his hand during an interview.


          And from the Washington Post:

          President Trump has claimed for two days that he secured a secret immigration deal with Mexico — beyond the one announced Friday. But the White House has declined to disclose any details, and Mexico has denied it. Confronted with understandable skepticism that such a deal exists, Trump produced a folded piece of paper from his breast pocket Tuesday.

          And a particularly good photographer, The Washington Post’s Jabin Botsford, snapped an image that reveals some of the document’s contents. That image allows us to glean some clues. …

          Essential the analysis is that this whole “Secret Agreement with Mexico” thing is just another giant helping of word salad from Trump.

          • mauī

            So did Trump get the deal done or not? Sounds like he did.

            As Mexico races to slash Central American migrant numbers by a July 22 deadline to satisfy demands by US president Donald Trump and stave off future tariff threats, Mr López Obrador, who is to meet his Salvadoran counterpart Nayib Bukele in Tapachula near the Mexico-Guatemalan border on Thursday, is facing a political backlash even from allies over his government’s handling of the crisis.


            • Macro

              No he didn't get the deal done! It was already in existence before he threatened the tariffs. That's the whole point. It is just another example of how he perverts the truth. Like in the latest example of this air strike he called off. First he sets up the threat – then he backs off – but always the result was a foregone conclusion. He is simply playing to his base who, then think he is a marvel. Most Americans see through him now, and are growing tired of his antics.

              • WeTheBleeple

                Oh well, back to Twitter for a new talking point! cheeky

                • RedLogix

                  Still it highlights the obvious fact that Mexico has been playing these refugees off against the USA. Most are fleeing violence and poverty in Central American countries like El Salvador, Guatemala and Honduras and staying, for many, could mean a death sentence.

                  Yet the obvious question arises, why is Mexico exempt from providing a safe haven for them? While it is a country with many problems of it's own, objectively it has a Human Development Index that's mid-range, and is capable of safely absorbing a considerable refugee influx. Yet for some reason most seem to want to make the arduous and dangerous trek with their children, the length of Mexico to the USA. If a simple fear for their lives was their primary motivation, this makes no sense.

                  The USA has every reason to think many refugees are primarily economic migrants, and that claiming asylum is simply a way to bypass normal legal migration.

                  Again I'm not diminishing the many complex and difficult stories that most refugees will have. Life in most developing countries, while improving generally, is still way harder than we are accustomed to in the developed world, and the very human motivation to move somewhere better is totally understandable.

                  Mass migration, like climate change, is a challenge no single nation is equipped to solve. Yes the Trump regime will make an ugly hash of it like it does pretty much everything else; what I object to is the left exploiting the misery of these people primarily to score points against Trump, rather than asking ourselves some hard questions about the issue in the whole.

                  • WeTheBleeple

                    Don't imagine for one minute that you speak on my behalf or understand my motivations. You show a distinct lack of understanding of any nuance that doesn't suit your globalist white is right fantasies.

                    "To score points against Trump." Yeah, cos that's all it is.

                    You also do not speak for the US, delusional to think you do:

                    "The USA has every reason to think many refugees are primarily economic migrants, and that claiming asylum is simply a way to bypass normal legal migration"

                    There will always be people trying to rort the system. Like you (and certain criminal administration) using economic migrants to hide behind.

                    So now the children have to deal with inhumane conditions, lack of rights, parental separation, assault, rape, deaths…

                    And you are OK with this but backtracked a bit now claiming you care – but the law, but the economic migrants, but the drug smugglers, what would you do, what's your plan… and on and on it goes.

                    Somehow, in your mind, they had it coming? You can't retract your poison it's printed here in black and white, screeds of it – 'reasonable' garbage:

                    "What did they expect if they illegally…"

                    Human rights, that's what I'd expect people to expect.

                    • RedLogix

                      You show a distinct lack of understanding of any nuance that doesn't suit your globalist white is right fantasies.

                      Where did you get that particular piece of racist drivel from? Because I refuse to buy into the Universal White Guilt pogram the authoritarian collectivists insist is the only legitimate form of left wing expression allowed to white people.

                      Unsubstantiated allegations being the staple diet of authoritarians everywhere, why am I not surprised.

                      "What did they expect if they illegally…"

                      There is every reason to argue that a large fraction of the refugees arriving at the US/Mexican border are primarily economic. There is little reason to think they 'fled all the way through Mexico in fear of their lives'. (Or if they did, then exactly what the hell is wrong with Mexico and why are they not being held to account?)

                      Therefore entering into the USA undocumented is a choice they have made, and unlike you I still believe in the old fashioned idea that individuals are at least to some degree responsible for their actions.

                    • WeTheBleeple

                      Ah yes, the universal white pogrom. A term made by you for you to play victim. VICTIM. How TF you got there, well…

                      Apparently, a victim of racism. Same kind of line the Proud Boys trot out believing they are victims of feminism.

                      Real men are not afraid of others having rights.

                      "Unsubstantiated allegations being the staple diet of authoritarians everywhere"

                      then says

                      "There is every reason to argue that a large fraction of the refugees arriving at the US/Mexican border are primarily economic"

                      "I still believe in the old fashioned idea that individuals are at least to some degree responsible for their actions"

                      Yes, you are.

                    • RedLogix

                      My crime it appears is that I hold all cultures and ethnic groups equal; of equal dignity and value. While at the same time valuing individual differences and diversity as a strength.

                      By contrast the authoritarian collectivists teach a doctrine that erases the individual and recognises people merely as members of a group. In this case I'm allocated as white, male, privileged and oppressor. And then insists my only legitimate response is one of guilt and contrition. This is bullshit, I refuse to be nothing more than an avatar for my group interests.

                      And is precisely why I annoy some people here so much. I have my own voice, my own experience and my own truth that I will speak to without fear.

                      As for my 'unsubstantiated allegations' … I made a reasonable case as to why most refugees at the US/Mexican border are probably economic in nature. Unless you can show these people were chased the length of Mexico by gun toting criminals, they cannot be said to be 'fleeing for their lives'. They may well be fleeing chronic poverty, violence and dysfunctional government in the homeland, but once they got to Mexico what is their pressing motivation to try to enter the USA? It's economic.

                      You accuse me of a lack of nuance, why then is the left silent on this?

                      Honduras, Guatemala and El Salvador are, by all accounts, countries ravaged by gang violence, drug trafficking and extreme poverty. It’s these elements that have driven wave after wave of illegal immigration to the U.S., drawing the ire of President Donald Trump.

                      And yet the bond market views the nations — especially the first two — as stable, almost safe, investments. In some cases, they can borrow at similar rates to regional powerhouses Brazil and Mexico.

                      It’s an odd thing, almost improbable sounding. And it reveals a surprising truth about these countries: They all have rock-solid fiscal accounts.

                      How’s that possible in such destitute places? Because, it turns out, they earmark precious little money to basic social programs. Not only does this save them cash, allowing them to hold down their budget deficits, but it has the effect of encouraging the poor — those who would benefit the most from greater outlays for healthcare or housing — to emigrate.

                      This in turn has an added advantage for these nations: The migrants send growing quantities of dollars to their families back home, generating a steady flow of hard currency that is a central pillar of their economies. (For some perspective, their value is roughly 30 times greater than the aid money that a frustrated Trump pulled from the countries this week.)

                      When all of these elements are stitched together and viewed holistically, it can appear as if the economic model these governments have adopted is one based on exporting people. That might be an over-simplification — and it may not be the governments’ intent — but it is the net effect of the policy mix, according to longtime observers of the region.


                      Maybe because it doesn't fit with the 'bash Trump at all costs' narrative?

                    • WeTheBleeple

                      Yeah nice speech. But you have shown your true colors.

                      You are an apologist. You took a similar 'reasoning' stance after the Christchurch attack.

                      "The white pogrom."

                      You sir, are pathetic. Much like Trump's admin trying to paint themselves as victims.

                      'What about the vets, whatabout the homeless' – yeah, they should fucking fix that shit too.

                      Instead, corporations siphon > $4000 pw per child. you could buy them a house with that.

                      History will remember every one of you trying to justify this shit. And so will I.

                      Done. Not worth reading or engaging with.

                    • RedLogix

                      And in the end all you had was bluster and assertions of your moral superiority.

            • WeTheBleeple

              Doesn't even warrant opening Maui

              US President Donald Trump: and

              Mr Lopez Obrador: and

              Nayib Bukele

              I think he meant

              Mexico's President Lopez Obrador and

              El Salvador's President Nayib Bukele.

              Do Brown people's titles not count? Why do you have one you sound mighty white.

              Seems some self important Americans spinning shit as usual. Dare I now open it finding two counts of bias (prejudice?) in the excerpt…

              Financial Times wants money for this drivel. I guess if you're a wank banker type you'd want some self reinforcement after a hard days trading and twerking.

              Total spin, try again. Or better yet, don't.

  6. aj 6

    This whole 'Trump the humanitarian' story is probably BS. It's more likely the drone was within Iranian airspace anyway and this is Trump's way out and get some brownie points. Yes, I know this interpretation is just as likely/unlikely as any other. The first casualty in war is truth.

  7. greywarshark 7

    Would it be true to say that NZs don't know much but they know what they don't like – unfortunately any thinking stops there?

  8. Observer Tokoroa 8

    He has made America Great. oh yeah

    He is the greatest President America has ever had. oh yeah

    Is that the reason DonaldTrump is so disliked and ridiculed ? Also, America is no good at winning wars. North Korea was a terrible pathetic loss

    But Vietnam, must go down as the greatest most useless war of all History. Americans, pure and simple are made for Golf and Baseball. That's all.

    Nobody believes anything Mr and Mrs Trump prattle on about.

    • WeTheBleeple 8.1

      They couldn't take half of Vietnam, but love to bomb from their high ground.

      If they start a war, will we be so stupid as to sign up. Why of course. White people in power are afraid of everything that is not a mirror.

      • bwaghorn 8.1.1

        Na cant see this government joining in . Another reason to be thankful the fucktard nats are out of power.

  9. Herodotus 9

    I hope our tax dept. is on to this.

    House sold in 2011 for $7.55m sold 7 years later for $6.9m. A 8.6% decrease, whilst over the same time period houses increased by 100% 🤫

    The wife of former ANZ New Zealand boss David Hisco bought the couple's Auckland family home from her husband's employer for substantially less than its capital valuation in 2017.

    Deborah Walsh paid $6.9 million in July of that year for the lavish St Heliers property, less than the $7.55m ANZ paid when it bought the house in early 2011.


  10. bwaghorn 10


    The education minister needs to go bang heads and sort this mess out . Dont experiment with kids futures.

    • In Vino 10.1

      All attempts at education are still experiments to my mind.. But the whackiest and silliest experiment would be the voucher system as proposed by Silly Seymore of the ACT party.

      Market forces are blind, and cause almighty crashes. We should not be crashing any schools ever. There are kids in those schools.

      Even that rubbishy argument "one size does not fit all" that the Charter schools used is silly: this particular school shows that central control is needed to limit risk. Experimentation should be done within the state system, with safety nets.

      It would be wonderful if our Ministry of Education evaluated carefully what works, researched the same thing overseas, and proposed worthwhile policies. Instead, the Ministry seems intent upon covering the backsides of whatever educationally illiterate Govt is pushing bloody stupid policies at the time.

      • greywarshark 10.1.1

        Sensible Sentencing Policy – Before being sent to Parliament politicians prior to elections shall have done a one year entry course covering philosophy of democracy and how to problem solve and critical analysis, and a few other things. Then three terms and they are ejected out of the cannon into a nice safety net like all prisoners should have.

  11. Poission 11

    coming to the nz film festival the documentary on Thomas Piketty’s book.


    • greywarshark 11.1

      I have been looking for basic details on the NZIFF website and bring you the fruit of my peregrinations! This was list of dates and places late in 2018. My note: May be subject to changes so check, but for Auckland is right.)

      NZIFF is run by a charitable trust and encourages lively interactions between films, filmmakers and New Zealand audiences in 13 towns and cities around the country. The dates confirmed for NZIFF 2019 are:

      • Auckland, Thursday 18 July – Sunday 4 August 2019
      • Wellington, Friday 26 July – Sunday 11 August 2019
      • Dunedin, Thursday 1 August 2019 – Sunday 18 August 2019
      • Nelson, Wednesday 7 August 2019 – Wednesday 28 August 2019
      • Christchurch, Thursday 8 August 2019 – Sunday 25 August 2019
      • Gore, Thursday 15 August 2019 – Sunday 25 August 2019
      • Timaru, Thursday 15 August 2019 – Sunday 25 August 2019
      • Hamilton, Wednesday 21 August 2019 – Wednesday 18 September 2019
      • Palmerston North, Thursday 22 August 2019 – Sunday 8 September 2019
      • Tauranga, Thursday 22 August 2019 – Sunday 15 September 2019
      • Masterton, Wednesday 28 August 2019 – Wednesday 11 September 2019
      • Hawke's Bay, Thursday 29 August 2019 – Sunday 15 September 2019
      • New Plymouth, Thursday 29 August 201 – Sunday 15 September 2019

      Last updated:

      Friday, 5 October 2018

      • greywarshark 11.1.1

        NZIFF – International Film Festival
        Wellington dates 26 July – 11 August
        I can't find any further information about date and have run out of time.

        Helen Kelly – Together.

        Correction: the printed NZIFF 2019 programme indicates ‘Helly Kelly – Together’ as receiving its World Premiere in Auckland. Its World Premiere is in Wellington.

        I want people just to be kind. It would make a hell of a difference.

        Helen Kelly


  12. greywarshark 12

    Brexit could apparently be stopped in The House of Lords for two one year, if the EU would agree more time to allow more thoughtful discussion.


    Parliament Act 1911
    The result was the Parliament Act 1911, which removed from the House of Lords the power to veto a Bill, except one to extend the lifetime of a Parliament. Instead, the Lords could delay a Bill by up to two years. The Act also reduced the maximum lifespan of a Parliament from seven years to five years.


    Parliament Act 1949
    The Parliament Act 1949 further reduced the Lords' delaying powers to one year.

    This Bill was under the Parliament Act group:
    European Parliament Elections Act 1999
    (so surely any EU matter would come under Parliament Act rules?)

    This matter could be affected by the House of Commons Library briefings referred to at the end of the link page.

    • Sabine 12.1

      honestly why would the EU give them anymore time then they already did?

      Why? Because England can't get its act together and do what they said they would / want to do? Exit.

      I mean how much more meaningful discussion does the EU owe to England (leaving our Ireland and Scotland on purpose here) and the Tories as they are the ones that actually can't get their shit together?

      Or is that a case of entitlement of 'i want all the benefits/privileges but non of the shared burden" ?

      • The Al1en 12.1.1

        It's Northern Ireland, and labour, under Corbyn, have at no time looked like their shit is in one piece.

        • Sabine

          i should have been more precise, the Republic of Ireland and Scotland.

          And i haven o idea what you are talking about re Corbyn. He is the leader of the labour party and is absolutely inconsequential and does not currently run the government. So yeah, not sure what you are on about.

          • The Al1en

            It's still Northern Ireland. The republic isn't part of the UK. NI is.

            And you wrote

            the Tories as they are the ones that actually can't get their shit together?

            Well, to be fair, labour have been all over the place on this too, and would, if in government, be equally as fractured over brexit as the tories are, perhaps more seeing most back benchers and party members are pro remain, despite some traditional areas voting to leave.

            Anything else you need clarification on? Like using ‘then’ instead of ‘than’, for example?

            anymore time then they already

            • Sabine

              i was leaving out Republic of Ireland – part of the EU and staying, and Scotland who is wondering about holding another referendum of independence so to be able to join the European Union. They are not the ones responsible for the current mess that is 'great britain' and the great embuggerance that is brexit and tory leadership.

    • Pat 12.2

      "This great Brexit outsourcing calamity has turned us all into semi-informed pundits, required to have a clear view on issues that are complicated, mysterious and unknowable. It’s like being trapped at a three-year-long dinner party with guests you don’t know or particularly like. We’re all thoroughly fed up with it and want to go home. Except that our former home seems impossibly out of reach."


      • greywarshark 12.2.1

        Pat I'm sure that expresses thoughts perfectly.


        The EU might feel like kicking UK but its a destabilising thing to have them leaving. What the EU could do is look at what to do to make it more relevant to the various countries and reduce Greeces austerity etc and keep the EU strong – it is as near to sanity as any large bloc of countries and we need some sanity.

        • Sabine

          you do remember that england voted to leave?

          and you do remeber that the EU is not a single person/country but a group of people and countries of which England voted to not be part anymore.

          so frankly, it is time for England to carry the consequences of its action, as a reminder that voting has indeed consequences.

          so frankly the only ones i pity are those under 40 …..but the rest? Will have to learn to live with Tory England and all its english grown, invented, made into law austerity that over the last few years has killed so many.

      • WeTheBleeple 12.2.2

        joe90 posted a link further down that is very informative. If you click through and explore the map showing all the ties it is a very illuminating depiction of the fossil fuel industry supported by Trump admin and various other players (PR, media, nationalist parties…) interference pushing for Brexit on behalf of the fossil fuel industry.

        And then – a big carve up on whatever public utilities they can get hold of: a typical disaster capitalist MO.


        So yeah, the waters are muddy as all hell – I'm leaning towards deliberately muddied.

        Poets muddy at their waters – to make them appear deep.

  13. greywarshark 13


    Have you had a chance to see this (if you wanted to)?


    Honouring the unheralded bravery of the Australian and New Zealand soldiers who fought in the ‘Battle of Long Tan’, one of the most savage and decisive engagements in ANZAC history, director Kriv Stenders’ film is a war story of uncommon emotional intensity. Daunting combat scenes recall the against-the-odds bravado of Lone Survivor and Black Hawk Down, but it is the internal fight of the men outnumbered – and how they chose to define heroism in the moment – that resonates loudest of all.

    “On 18 August 1966, for three and a half hours in a rubber plantation called Long Tan, Major Harry Smith and his inexperienced company, of mainly conscripts, fought for their lives against 2,500 seasoned Viet Cong and North Vietnamese soldiers. With their ammunition running out, casualties mounting, and the enemy massing for a final assault, each man searches for the strength to go forward with honour, decency and courage. A tremendous cast… bring the battle and each soldiers’ heroism vividly to life. Danger Close: The Battle of Long Tan is the important story of men caught up in a politically unpopular war, whose courage has long been under-acknowledged.” — Sydney Film Festival

    • Exkiwiforces 13.1

      Cheers for the link Grey, I got an email from my local RSL saying its hitting the screen here in Darwin. I hope to see this one on the big screen as I missed seeing 6 Days on the big screen.

      I see the ockers keep referring to the OC of D Coy 6RAR, old Harry Smith as the hero of Long Tan. But if you ever read the books on the of Long Tan or watch a few interviews, Harry would say it was the 3 Kiwi's (Willie Walker RNZAC, Murray Broomhall and Capt Maurice Stanley both RNZA that made up his FO party at Coy HQ and his CSM Jack Kirby that made his job a lot more easy to do. Capt Stanley use to a speaking tour once a yr around the major NZ Army bases until he passed away a few yrs ago and talking about what happen on that day. There are a lot of unsung hero's that not only in D Co, but also those back a Nui Dat which had only been est a few mths early after their from Bien Hoa Airbase on the other side of Saigon.

      The BC, Major Harry Horner for 161Bty pretty much ran the whole Fire Support for D Coy out of 161 Bty HQ even his aussie CO move in to oversee the him and pretty much left him to get on with the job of running 18 guns plus the Yank 155mm Bty of 4 or 6 guns and Air Support and he making sure the gunners didn't run out of ammo which they almost did at one time. In which yanks started to fly it in by the truck load as it got very despite to a point, I believe yanks even offer B52 bombers which was politely turned down as the troops were like 50-100m apart which the yanks couldn't believe at the time.

      Those not involve were running crates (2per crate) of 105mm rounds to the gunline either from the shell dump and later from the LZ's dotted around the Dat. Heck even two very NZ officials one a civvie and the other was the senior NZ officer in South Vietnam (both old Gunners from WW2) tour around 161's lines at the time muck in to move the rounds.

      Little Pattie was having her rock concert at the time and she was and she about 1 as the first rds went down range and the first 18 gun fire mission went down range, she remembered seeing people getting very calmly garb their gear buggering off and the fourth or sixth 18 gun fire mission she had stuff all punters left. By that time someone decide to get her and I think Col Joy out of the Dat and to Vung Tau. She recalls looking out of the Huey seeing the whole of the Dat in a flash of red as all the guns were firing by that stage non stop and think am I ever going to see the boys again as she thought that Nui Dat was under attack at that time. Only to realise sometime later that the guns were supporting D Coy who were in a lot of trouble at the time.

      The Battle of Long Tan pretty much broke the back of VC/NVA forces Phuoc Tuy and with skills that the Australians and Kiwis learnt from their time in Malaya and Borneo almost of all Phuoc Tuy (about 90-95%) was a not go area with very much reduce operations until the ANZAC's left in 71-72 as they realise these guys weren't like the yanks nor fought like them either.

      On my last trip to Phuoc Tuy, I managed to a chat to a few ex VC/ NVA vets when their minders weren't present as the Government doesn't like talking about ANZAC's activities in Phuoc Tuy because of Long Tan. The local vets have a lot of time for the Aussies and Kiwi's soldiers and I also manage to get some range time as well shooting a few rifles and MG's with me knocking all the tgts over including their version of a Jungle lane with them acting as Range safety. Turning around to them they had a nod and smile, but I didn't also I realise had a peanut galley following as well watch me shoot etc apparently they were giving the young lads and ladies a lesson on how to move and shot in the Jungle. As these westerners from Australia and New Zealand know how to live and fight in the jungle and you want them on your side not the other way. As one of youngers ask why is the frang shooting etc.

      The Battle of Long Tan by Lex McAulay is a good read along with Harry Smith's Book is another good read and there is one other which I don't have on the Battle of Long Tan.

  14. Philip Ferguson 14

    Maire Leadbeater is an indefatigable campaigner in solidarity with the struggle for freedom by oppressed peoples in the Pacific.

    Her new book, 'See No Evil', is on the struggle in West Papua and really should be read by anyone/everyone in this country concerned with human rights and freedom.

    I recently interviewed her for Redline: https://rdln.wordpress.com/2019/06/21/the-freedom-struggle-in-west-papua-interview-with-solidarity-activist-author-maire-leadbeater/

    [white space deleted]

    • Exkiwiforces 14.1

      Thanks for the post the Phillip, as I had a read of it last night when I couldn't sleep (bloody nightmares from Peacekeeping) and I wouldn't mind buying the book as I last yr spent my sick leave prior to my medical discharge at the chief library in the NT Government buildings reading about West Papua, East Timor and ANZUK Forces in SEA.

      But until the various left wing unions, organisations, political parties and individuals from Australia and NZ that give active and moral support to President Sukarno, and to his Communist Party apologise in supporting President Sukarno and his actions in West Papua after the Dutch were booted out in some rather dodgy events by the UN and by the Yanks.

      From the evidence I've seen the yanks pretty much forced Brits, Dutch and Australians hands over West Papua which in turn meant that NZ really had no choice in the matter but full in as they couldn't do SFA about it from a diplomatic or military POV. Just like ET in 1975 when old Bill Rowling had to after he had put the NZ Armed Forces in Standby and then cancel the Standby alert ass the Brits and Australia did SFA about it and no doubt the Yanks had a hand in it as well.

      I have always consider Marie to a be the smartest one from her family unlike her idiot brother Keith who couldn't make a Peacekeepers asshole no matter how hard he tried to be one, or both of her parents after what happen in Blackball in the 30's and the fact that she had that crazy pom (just read his RN service records aka FAA and Dolphins he is mad as a cut snake) as a partner in crime but a top bloke as well. But it was her comments during and after INTERFET that she realise the need to have well trained and well equipment combat forces for Peacekeeping/ Peace Enforcement missions such INTERFET was in the end a Chapter 6 1/2 mission on NZ's door step. I finally thought had that they would now fully understand the need for such people like me, my cousin in the NZ Army at the time with NZBATT1, all my mates in the NZDF at time of ET and Lenny's death in ET wasn't in vain after all.

      [Loads of white space deleted]

  15. Macro 15

    More Shock and Horror from the maniacal world of Trumpland.

    Trump Administration Plans to Reclassify High-Level Radioactive Waste as Low-Risk

    The Trump administration is planning to reclassify high-level radioactive waste as low-risk, in a bid to cut as much as $40 billion from cleanup costs at nuclear weapons production sites around the U.S. A top Energy Department official called the proposal a “responsible, results-driven solution” to the problem of nuclear waste disposal. The move was condemned by environmentalists and scientists who say the waste needs to be contained in facilities deep underground. In a statement, the Natural Resources Defense Council said, “The Trump administration is moving to fundamentally alter more than 50 years of national consensus on how the most toxic and radioactive waste in the world is managed and ultimately disposed of.”

    I mean – you couldn't make this shit up! no 😠

    • Sabine 15.1

      “If there’s a new regulation, they have to knock out two. But it goes far beyond that, we’re cutting regulations massively for small business and for large business,” Trump said during the signing of the order, while surrounded by small-business leaders.


      and caring about the environment is for suckers and besides humans are not either a profit centre (kids in cages is good business) or a cost centre (army veterans that need medical care or housing).


      • Macro 15.1.1

        Yeah the mayhem that f**king vandal is causing is just simply tragic. The EPA – which was actually established under Nixon's presidency (which I always find hugely ironic). Now under Trump's two grievous Secretary appointments (Pruitt and now Wheeler) the EPA has been reduced to a shell, and rubber stamps anything and everything industry wants. All references to climate change have been removed from their website and experienced researchers have been dispersed to the winds.

        Just the other day the EPA approved the release (and application) of a pesticide that is highly toxic to bees.


        • WeTheBleeple

          End game genocide?

          Allow air pollution, radiation, add to diversity loss and (subsequent) crop loss, and bring climate change denial to a town near you.

          Could he possibly make it worse? Of course he can. Flint water for all!

          • Macro

            But don't worry – when you get ill there won't be "ObamaCare" but there will always be that beautiful US health plan "TrumpDoesn'tCare".

  16. greywarshark 16

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=12242932 Despairs for justice: menacing encounter…22/6/2019

    Reading about the sleazy invaders from the UK who trailed trash everywhere they went, spoiled their food when they had eaten most of it and then declared it contaminated and refused to pay, stole anything they wanted, and created mayhem – (now we know how Maori felt prior to signing the Treaty) – there is a feeling of foreboding and horrified fascination reading about the further misadventures of the Dorans now they are back 'home'.

    This link is about the Dorans: Irish travellers who have invaded a once quiet hamlet in the area of Wychavon District Council, Worcestershire, England.

    Last line of article: 'Have we really reached the stage where one family can hold a village to ransom for £600,000 and still have the law on their side?'

    I don't know about the priorities of UK Councils. I read a while ago about the banning of a design on a headstone for a dedicated snooker? player having his hobby pictured on his gravestone at the public cemetery. Whether they can handle out-of-society family gangs is unclear.

  17. joe90 17

    Masters of the fucking universe want it all.

    New evidence reveals how a tightly concentrated global network of politicians and corporations with close ties to the Trump administration is working on behalf of powerful US fossil fuel interests in Britain and Europe.

    Several candidates who were in the running to become the next British Prime Minister — Boris Johnson, Jeremy Hunt, Dominic Raab, Michael Gove, Andrea Leadsom, and Steve Baker — are part of this pro-Trump network.

    The evidence comes thanks to a network map produced by independent investigative media outlet DeSmog UK, exposing for the first time the astonishing array of connections between President Donald Trump, right-wing lobbies in the US, and far-right parties in the UK and Europe.

    Published after a leaked recording showed US secretary of state Mike Pompeo threatening to interfere in British democracy to block opposition leader Jeremy Corbyn, the map unveils the extent to which US corporate lobbies with a direct line to senior Trump officials are backing both mainstream British politicians and European far-right extremists.


    • OnceWasTim 17.1

      "Masters of the fucking universe want it all"

      They do @ Joe. The funny thing is that they're the first to scream for mummy if and when it all goes tits up – and eventually, it always does

    • Macro 17.2

      Meanwhile Oregon….

      Republican law makers awol and heading to the hills:

      Oregon Republicans are on the lam to avoid voting on a major climate change bill

      “Send bachelors and come heavily armed,” one Republican state senator warned police.

      Twelve Oregon Republican lawmakers are on the run from the law, having fled the state Senate in Salem on Thursday to deny quorum for a vote on a major climate change bill. The legislation would establish a statewide cap-and-trade scheme for carbon dioxide.

      Democratic Gov. Kate Brown authorized state police to find the lawmakers and bring them back. They are each being fined $500 for every day there aren’t enough senators for a vote. (So far, it’s been two days.) Oregon State Police said they are also coordinating with law enforcement agencies in nearby states to find the Republicans.

      Brown lamented the stunt to avoid passing the bill. “It would have been historic for Oregon, historic for the country, and frankly historic for the world,” she said during a press conference Thursday. “Unfortunately, Senate Republicans have failed to show up and failed to do their jobs.”


  18. FYI

    I've just spent most of the past hour on what is best described as a conference call with somewhere in Californ I Aye – customers taking advantage of a 7-11.

    How far removed in terms of a daily life from Trump's America.

    What did become evident however is that lil 'ole NuZull remains ( just as it always has ) as the pimple on the arse end of the Whurl if and whenever the shit hits the fan.

    Maybe there's a lesson in all of that eh possums?

  19. greywarshark 19

    A quiz – a little bit light-hearted for political junkies.

    From Andrew Gunn 22/6 The Press – Stuff.


  20. greywarshark 20

    I don't think there is a spiritual hell – it is with us now and when we die we shall be free. It is not ISIS that is at fault, it is the male accession to violence and desire to in control and be powerful. And it is a mark of weakness and desperation and hollowness that kills.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=12242923 Murder in the Atlas Mountains: Two Scandinavian women brutally slain by IS supporters 22/6/2019

  21. greywarshark 21

    I was hoping to search my comments but I got 'nothing'.

    So I thought that didn't work, I'll try it in reverse, so I entered 'nothing' but didn't get any of me, just about 50 nothings. So there are some spare if someone needs some nothing.

  22. greywarshark 22

    Cars have knock for knock – what about cyclists/pedestrians.

    Cyclist who knocked over woman on phone must pay up to £100,000.


  23. joe90 23

    But not #ConcentrationCamps.


    SAN FRANCISCO (CN) – The Trump administration argued in front of a Ninth Circuit panel Tuesday that the government is not required to give soap or toothbrushes to children apprehended at the U.S.-Mexico border and can have them sleep on concrete floors in frigid, overcrowded cells, despite a settlement agreement that requires detainees be kept in “safe and sanitary” facilities.

    All three judges appeared incredulous during the hearing in San Francisco, in which the Trump administration challenged previous legal findings that it is violating a landmark class action settlement by mistreating undocumented immigrant children at U.S. detention facilities.

    “You’re really going to stand up and tell us that being able to sleep isn’t a question of safe and sanitary conditions?'” U.S. Circuit Judge Marsha Berzon asked the Justice Department’s Sarah Fabian Tuesday.


    Multiple times a month, U.S. Border Patrol arrives at Banner-University Medical Center Tucson with “noticeably pregnant women,” according to an OB-GYN resident who works there. The hospital’s obstetric triage department is essentially an emergency room for pregnant people, and officers with the federal immigration agency regularly bring in newly apprehended pregnant migrants for medical evaluations. Once the hospital visit nears its end, multiple health-care providers have said Border Patrol “pressures” them to provide a “cleared for detention letter.”


    The health-care providers confirmed that the obstetric triage department is not the only unit receiving Border Patrol’s request for letters clearing migrants for detention. Staff working in the trauma department and the hospital’s emergency room have also received these requests to “clear” migrants for detention who were experiencing health emergencies like renal failure.

    “At least once a week a doctor is writing one of these letters,” Varner said. “People come to us in such bad shape, like 45-year-old men in [immigration] custody who are dying from the flu, but Border Patrol is still at the hospital asking for a letter clearing them for detention.”


    • joe90 23.1

      Seems the reckoning is that if you're cruel enough to children all those brown people will simply stop coming and 'Murica will safe.

    • joe90 23.2

      Of course these kids have no one to blame but themselves for breaking the law, eh^^.


      A chaotic scene of sickness and filth is unfolding in an overcrowded border station in Clint, Tex., where hundreds of young people who have recently crossed the border are being held, according to lawyers who visited the facility this week. Some of the children have been there for nearly a month.

      Children as young as 7 and 8, many of them wearing clothes caked with snot and tears, are caring for infants they’ve just met, the lawyers said. Toddlers without diapers are relieving themselves in their pants. Teenage mothers are wearing clothes stained with breast milk.

      Most of the young detainees have not been able to shower or wash their clothes since they arrived at the facility, those who visited said. They have no access to toothbrushes, toothpaste or soap.

      “There is a stench,” said Elora Mukherjee, director of the Immigrants’ Rights Clinic at Columbia Law School, one of the lawyers who visited the facility. “The overwhelming majority of children have not bathed since they crossed the border.”


  24. greywarshark 24

    About Hisco's prowess. Bernard Hickey writes:

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/on-the-inside/392358/bernard-hickey-the-smiling-assassin-returns-for-his-biggest-hit 18/6/2019

    Hisco successfully managed the merger [with National Bank] with barely a blip in customer service and market share. He also quietly presided over a reduction in ANZ's exposure to dangerous dairy loans, flicking on some of the weakest lenders to other banks. For example, ANZ let Allan Crafar move his more than $200 million of loans to Westpac before the poorly managed farming group collapsed under a welter of animal mistreatment allegations and effluent treatment fines. Westpac suffered heavy losses in the subsequent receivership and sale of Crafar Farms….

    A much less intrusive and public inquiry into bank conduct and culture here by the Financial Markets Authority and the Reserve Bank found the big four in New Zealand had better cultures than Australia, despite some breaches, but it failed to name and shame any culprits. Effectively, the banks here got off light.

    However, the veil was beginning to slip in recent months, particularly around ANZ. The Reserve Bank announced in mid-May it had discovered ANZ had not been using the correct model for calculating its own capital for five years, apparently due to an internal oversight. This came at the same time as the Reserve Bank was proposing banks effectively double their capital reserves at a cost of more than $20 billion. The Reserve Bank immediately ordered ANZ to increase its capital by $285 million to $760 million….

    Hisco has always appeared a gregarious and robust character when I've interviewed him. He was popular inside the bank and widely recognised as the head of New Zealand's banking scene, rivaled only perhaps by the Reserve Bank Governor. ANZ is also enormous, relative to the size of the New Zealand economy. Its loans and capital are worth $163 billion, or just over half of New Zealand's GDP. ANZ produces almost $2 billion of profit each year, making it New Zealand's most profitable entity and its biggest private company…

    Key said yesterday a relatively junior staffer was responsible for the model failure. Quite rightly, the Reserve Bank would question why the chief executive and the chairman did not know.

    Key's removal of Hisco was the least he could do to protect the bank, to show leadership for the big four banks' reputations here, and to protect his own position, especially in the eyes of the ANZ group board, which he is a member of.

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