National is pinning 2020 success on someone who is not in Parliament

Written By: - Date published: 10:24 am, June 22nd, 2019 - 135 comments
Categories: capitalism, Judith Collins, Media, national, same old national, Simon Bridges, social media lolz, the praiseworthy and the pitiful - Tags:

 

This advertisement appeared in the Herald this morning.  It clearly displays the desperation being felt within the National Party.

The proposition advanced by this rather expensive ad is that Chris Luxon will lead National to victory in 2020.

There are some problems with this:

  • Chris is not an MP and barring a by election in a seat, say Botany, will not be an MP until after the next election at the earliest.
  • He is completely untested.  Running an airline with, thanks to the last Labour Government, majority Government shareholding is one thing.  Running a country is another.
  • The thought that he will be another Key is fanciful.  Key was a media construct who at the end of his term had little to show for his term.  When your biggest disappointment is that you did not change the flag then you know you wasted your term.

With typical Tory arrogance elements within National think that they can parachute in someone with a business CV, spend money on creating a media persona, and then win.

It is a sign that elements within the party accept that Bridges is not up to the task.  And they would rather pump for a completely tested outsider than trust Judith with the job.

Update:

The National Party has denied formal involvement in the placement of the advertisement.

135 comments on “National is pinning 2020 success on someone who is not in Parliament”

  1. JustMe 1

    All this indicates that Simon Bridges days of being leader of the Opposition is nearing an end.  And all this despite Bridges claiming to be the leader of National at the next election.

    Sounds like some in National are contradicting each other.

  2. Is the ad authorised by National? If not The Herald and Brooks can be in trouble, from what I have read. It can also been seen as electioneering. 

     

    Trying to confuse people to vote for National in 2020?

    • higherstandard 2.1

      If this is authorised by someone in National they are a larger bunch of numpties than previously thought.

  3. Sacha 3

    Seems Mr Hisco is also available..

  4. Sacha 4

    … barring a by-election in a seat, say Botany, will not be an MP until after the next election at the earliest."

    Parties have more than once persuaded List MPs to step down early and shuffled newcomers up the List to replace them.

    • Wayne 4.1

      Sacha,

      You can't add someone new on the list between elections.

      Luxon either has to stand for an electorate seat, that is, go into an selection, or go onto the 2020 list. Presuambly he would be a special board appointment as happened with Brash and Groser.

      Audrey Young has a realistic take on all of this in today's Herald.

      • lprent 4.1.1

        My god! Some pages worth reading in the Herald this morning in the Opinion page. I can see about 4 pages that look like they may be worth reading. Still not enough to be worth paying $200pa for. That is more than the quarter for The Economist!

        There is a pretty obvious paid PR presence floating in behind Luxton – presumably some political muscle as well.

        Its going to be interesting seeing where this goes and how much strife it causes in the National caucus getting there.

      • Sacha 4.1.2

        Thanks for clarifying that detail.

  5. marty mars 5

    I bet paula and judith are pretty gutted by this… so close yet so far. Not fair really.

    • ankerawshark 5.1

      Maybe Paula and Jude will leak something on Luxton .  One of the Nats favoured ways of harming an opponent.

      Re the add,,,,,,,,,,,,I could have sworn it was an add for hair loss………….

    • Sacha 5.2

      They will not fear a renegade faction who needs to resort to newspaper ads to reach other party members. More signs of internal friction though.

  6. higherstandard 6

     'Some pages worth reading in the Herald this morning in the Opinion page. '

    You're a braver man than me. 

  7. observer 7

    I remember being told years ago, by an old political pro: there are many more former future PMs than actual ones.

    Luxon seems to think the media are more important than his future colleagues in caucus. He'll be learning the hard way.

  8. Its like an advert for the worst super hero TV show ever, about some smug middle aged white guy who when tickled and offered a tax cut, transforms into "The Incredible Middle Aged White Guy"…though, arguably, in this case he would appear to be transforming down a notch.. 

  9. Fireblade 10

    National claims large ad promoting Christopher Luxon in the party 'nothing to do with us'.

    https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/national-claims-large-ad-promoting-christopher-luxon-in-party-nothing-do-us

    • Sacha 10.1

      No surprise that the faction pushing Luxon lacks official support from the current Nat backroom bosses.

    • bwaghorn 10.2

      Seems like a nice bit of shit stirring being done by someone.  

      Simple simon should start a whitch hunt to find them . Hell it might be labours doing!!!🤣🤣😎

      • Fireblade 10.2.1

        Yep. Someone's having a laugh at the Nats comical leadership shenanigans.

        • observer 10.2.1.1

          The "authorised by" statement on the ad tells us otherwise.

          You'd have to believe that his name and address were used by somebody else, trying to discredit him – and then ask what you/anyone would do if they were fraudulently impersonated like that.

          Only the most desperate of conspiracy theorists would conclude "a lefty dunnit". It's not the Nats. But it is a Nat. With a name. (And now in need of a lawyer).

    • Editractor 10.3

      Is this a case of Luxon Luxoff then?

  10. CHCoff 11

    The man who wasn't there, but it's not John Key 2.0 ?

    Those Herald subscribers have re-couped their value already me thinks.

  11. Muttonbird 12

    Internecine warfare breaks out in the National Party. Couldn't happen to a more deserving bunch!

  12. Editractor 13

    That's creepy as hell. Who knew that Key and Luxon are played by the same person – Stephen Joyce.

  13. Ad 14

    Mickey the only reason Labour leads this government is because Labour killed off Andrew Little and Jacinda Ardern (aww shucks …. me? Really? Ask me again … four times … who me?) stepped in and smiled. 

    This move was so close to the election that they had to reprint the billboards. 

    So if National supporters want to do a bit of speculation about someone fresh, I say good on them. They have plenty of time, and Labour have no reason to point the finger.

    • Dukeofurl 14.1

      national reprinted its billboards too…. same face different message

      • Ad 14.1.1

        National had their billboards printed in December 2016?

        • Dukeofurl 14.1.1.1

          No , not Key.

          Joyce changed their  campaign strategy  when Ardern became labour leader

          • cleangreen 14.1.1.1.1

            Joyce and Key are working to pull every lever quietly behind the scene for sure.

            “hollow men”; – volume two.

    • Muttonbird 14.2

      Bollocks. JA had been in Parliament for 9 years or are you claiming she was parachuted in too?

      Please stop apologising for the right wing, it makes you look like an idiot.

      • Ad 14.2.1

        Ardern was an unremarkable MP, and Ardern was the one claiming she never wanted to be leader. 

        • Muttonbird 14.2.1.1

          A remarkable PM though, and pretty sure she didn't say never. Also, there's a hint of misogyny in your comment at 14. This doesn't surprise me as you appear to align with those other old Labour types who are mistrustful of women.

          But here I am arguing with you on one of your bad days. 

          • Incognito 14.2.1.1.1

            My misogyny sensor must be off; where’s the hint?

            When Key took on the top job and joked, smiled, and waved where there hints of misandry or simply the humble beginnings of KDS?

            • Drowsy M. Kram 14.2.1.1.1.1

              "Labour killed off Andrew Little and Jacinda Ardern… stepped in and smiled."

              The choice of words does come across as a tad inflammatory to me.

              'Labour' replaced leader Andrew Little – Labour (and other political parties) have replaced leaders before, although it's more usual to do so after a loss, rather than immediately before a win.

              The implication of 'stepped in‘ (stepped up?), ‘smiled', and the rest is history, is clear – in Ad's (considered?) opinion, Ardern's most significant political asset is her smile.  As Muttonbird stated, however, Ardern is more than 'just a smile'.

              Ad's comment isn't in-your-face misogyny, but it is belittling towards Ardern. That's unsurprising and disappointing, but “aww shucks“, it’s just Ad.

              • Incognito

                Ok, thank you for your response. However, inflammatory or belittling are not “in-your-face misogyny”, as you correctly state; they are not misogyny full stop.

                There’s no hint that Ad was criticising or attacking the PM because of her sex nor was he displaying a hint of hatred towards her sex. Unless there’s factual support for this assumption (i.e. the accusation of a hint of misogyny), it is conjecture and more likely projection.

                This is why I asked if there was hint of misandry when people made inflammatory comments about or tried to belittle him.

                For the record and FWIW, I don’t see things the same way as Ad does and I could argue against his points without invoking false labels. In other words, if people don’t agree with him, or don’t like him kicking the proverbial ‘holy cow’ then they should lift their game and put up a decent (counter-) argument.

                These short winter days seem to make people short-tempered. Maybe they should start taking vitamin D supplements.

                • Drowsy M. Kram

                  Agreed, it's not misogyny at all, just wish more people could get over the idea that Ardern is PM because of her smile, and will remain PM because of her baby/wedding/whatever.

                  IMHO, comments such as Ad's have the potential to detract from the abilities/skills of high-achieving women.  Negative reactions/attitudes towards women in positions of power remain powerful levers.

                  They may court it (on their own terms), but when was the last time a male PM had to put up with such nonsense?

                  "This baby is a political liability to Labour and the government." /coming-up-babies/#comment-1494315

                  "No; that should be her official name
                  Three Point Bump Ardern-Gayford
                  And JuliaAnn’s would be named One Point Bump
                  " /its-a-girl/#comment-1496284

                  • Incognito

                    I agree that Ad could have worded it differently but maybe it was a deliberate provocation(s). The point is, for me, that many (all?) commenters here have sensitivities (bugbears) and triggers. When one makes a comment in good faith, with sarcasm, or to rattle a cage, for example, some commenters here choose to be detracted by their own thinking. I’d go as far as to say that the potential is almost always there waiting to be triggered. It doesn’t seem to occur to them that they may have misconstrued the comment and that they’re fact making assumptions and/or jumping to conclusions that might be wrong. Instead of asking for clarification or testing their assumptions, they go into attack mode and often target the ‘man’, not the ‘ball’. To give someone the benefit of doubt only works well when there is patience, trust, good faith, and mutual respect.

                    When Ad, for example, makes statements that don’t go down well with some here, they pull ridiculous accusations against him rather than deal with his points. I’m not here to defend Ad but he’s written hundreds of posts here and many more comments and yet people seem to accuse him of being some kind of RWNJ!? So, either Ad’s history here is incongruent with the ‘raison d'être’ of TS or the other commenters have the wrong end of the stick.

                    Just because we can read something into a comment or an uttering doesn’t mean it was intentional, not even at a sub-conscious level. Yet we often seem to project it back onto the sender as if this was exactly and absolutely the case without a shadow of doubt.

                    People get so defensive over certain things (or people). One is not allowed to say anything about ‘sacred cows’ that could be perceived as negative or criticism or risk being pulled over hot coals by an offended and/or angry ‘believer’. Often this turns into a mob piling on the [expletive of choice].

                    It is becoming frustrating and predictive; the pattern is so clear to see yet it keeps on happening as if nobody else is seeing it. Habit, ignore and deny, stubbornness, or something else altogether?

                    • Drowsy M. Kram

                      The apparent intent of Ad’s comment @14, and his reply @14.2.1, upset me.  I assumed the wording accurately conveyed Ad's assessment of events and Ardern, and didn't consider the possibilty that Ad (also?) intended the comments to be provocative.  Not sure what purpose(s) might be served by any such provocation.

                      I reacted to the apparent intent of Ad's comments (my interpretation might have been wrong), and attempted, in my comments, to explain my concerns.  Reviewing my comments, it's clear they could be considered provocative.

                      Do appreciate Ad's posts and comments, including those I disagree with – in future will restrict myself to reading only.

                    • Incognito []

                      Although I replied to your comment, I was really hoping to reach an audience larger than one (i.e. you).

                      I call it as I see it and we all do that. What Ad’s true intentions were, I don’t know. It is a possibility that he was aiming to be provocative or maybe he phrased it badly.

                      Being provocative can be a useful tool in debate (rhetoric) but it needs to be used wisely IMHO because it can easily get out of control.

                      I do appreciate your considered comments here so please keep it up.

                    • Drowsy M. Kram

                      Thanks Incognito, that’s helpful analysis/advice.  I do find it difficult to identify the (wider) motives/intentions of some authors/commenters here, and there could be all sorts of reasons for that.

                      Sometimes authors/commenters are difficult to 'pigeonhole' – they can present non-ideological, well-informed views, and show a willingness to consider and even adopt other points of view.  And often I lack the intelligence, information and/or experience(s) needed to appreciate a particular post, comment or (point of) view.

                      Pigeonholing the more frequent commenters is convenient, although getting it wrong is embarrassing!  I read what a particular commenter writes through their assigned ‘pigeonhole lens’ (it’s a crude lens: political affiliation, affiliation to other commenters (picking 'sides'), ideology/bugbears, commenting style, etc.) – over time the prescription of some lenses changes.

                      Not defending or recommending pigeonholing – it's a practical way for me to 'consume’/filter the quantity of writing on this blog.  An interesting (chaotic?) experiment would be to remove 'commenter identifiers' for (say) one OM/DR a week.  Waffling now; probably waffling from the start.

                      Btw, appreciate the good moderating ‘job’ you’re doing – well reasoned comments/appeals can really calm things down, but it must be trying at times.

                    • Incognito []

                      Very good comment, thank you! I’m in the same boat as you and often have to second-guess innuendo, meaning, intention, purpose, humour, etc., in comments and even in posts. I’d like to think it is not due to lack of intelligence but the way written language is used here to communicate 😉

                      Many topics are incredibly complex and/or sensitive too. Pigeonholing is a heuristic IMO and we all do it to some extent; it’s a mental shortcut with the drawbacks that shortcuts tend to have. The struggle is even worse when moderating and getting it wrong is worse than embarrassing but it needs to be done, sometimes …

                      BTW, I’ve had the exact same thought to remove user names by way of experiment to see if and how this would change discourse. Maybe I’ll suggest this in the back-end or I could do it on one of my own posts and turn on moderation from the outset and then after some time (a few days?) back-fill the original user names. I think it would be a fun experiment 🙂

                  • WeTheBleeple

                    Sounds like he hates babies and women.

                    [These accusations aimed at Ad are a vile personal attack. Lynn recently warned you to rein it in. Withdraw and apologise today or suffer the consequences of your appalling behaviour here – Incognito]

                    • Incognito

                      See my Moderation note @ 6:43 AM.

                    • WeTheBleeple

                      No I will not withdraw it.

                      The words 'sounds like' are accurately descriptive of the feeling given by some of the posts.

                      In your words: When one makes a comment in good faith, with sarcasm, or to rattle a cage, for example, some commenters here choose to be detracted by their own thinking. I’d go as far as to say that the potential is almost always there waiting to be triggered.

                      I actually thought it was someone trolling, not Ad. Triggered me listening to rehashed kiwibog lines coming from him. Then my sarcasm triggered you.

                      Your interpretation that it is a 'vile personal attack' is incorrect.

                      Wave your stick about if you must.

                      [This is not about Ad but about your behaviour. You also crossed the line with RedLogix on Open mike 22/06/2019. You cross the line many times, and you were warned, only recently. In other words, you exhibit a pattern of behaviour and I seem to have missed the sarcasm tag, each and every time. In any case, there is only so much you can put behind a sarcasm tag before it becomes something more sinister.

                      I do not want to wave “my stick”. I want you to self-moderate and control your comments especially when they are “triggered”. The moderation note stands to the end of the day for you to reconsider your decision because I do act in good faith – Incognito]

                    • Incognito []

                      See my Moderation note @ 12:34 PM.

                    • WeTheBleeple

                      'you exhibit a pattern of behaviour'

                      Yeah I do.

                      I argue with people who make despicable comments, and I get heated. Sometimes I say dumb shit. Sometimes I deliberately ruffle feathers to see if any fleas jump out. Sometimes I get things totally wrong.

                      And I apologise.

                      While people who don't get my context might call or accuse of me all sorts of things; or follow me round being smart asses with personal stuff they pick up – and apologies do not come. Those people include Mods. Hell I've banned myself so as not to respond OTT to Lyns abuse of others twice.

                      I hold this stuff against nobody except deliberate trolls, ughh.

                      I apologise to RL I certainly could have done better there.

                      But on principle I'm not apologising to Ad for a personal attack as there wasn't one. I'll apologise for an off comment that was a reply to an off comment.

                      Make what you will of that. We're all a bit frazzled we just came very close to another war amongst all the other madness. You can time me out if you think it'd help.

                      [Thank you. Acknowledging this is self-moderation, which is what I hoped to achieve. I’m still mightily unimpressed about what you said about Ad but progress has been made and I hope it will continue. You do make many good comments here so keep up the good work and leave the (personal) insults at the door please.

                      BTW, the only active Moderators currently are MickySavage, Lynn, and I and we all have limited spare time. We also moderate in different ways. Please remember that there are many more silent readers of the site than there are commenters and even fewer authors of whom Ad is one – Incognito]

                    • Incognito []

                      See my Moderation note @ 6:04 PM.

                    • WeTheBleeple

                      That is fair. I just now realised I (think I) never kick up a ruckus in HTGT, maybe that's my safe space when my heads not on straight.

                      I need to take that same level of respect to the wider blog. It weirds me out now TBH, the variance is obvious.

                      Onward and upward.

                • patricia bremner

                  Andrew offered to stand down.   Finally caucus agreed just as he was considering fighting on.  When told of the decision he nominated Jacinda.

                  Ad, nobody killed off anybody,  even politically,  as Jacinda appointed him to the front bench.

          • Kat 14.2.1.1.2

            "A remarkable PM though.."  That is exactly why a number of people just cannot handle that Jacinda Ardern has more than risen to the challenge of being Labour leader and has become a hugely popular PM, garnering international respect and prestige into the mix. Apparently she should have been making "hits" when she was an MP and now getting the whip out for a few of her ministers. Some people are just not worth bothering about, unfortunately they vote and unfortunately they make up about 40% of the electorate. And we wonder why this country struggles at times. Ignorance is not always bliss.

          • Ad 14.2.1.1.3

            Popular Prime Minister who is remarkable for being popular, emoting at the right time, and having a baby.  

            But leading a government that is changing absolutely fucking nothing. 

            The only difference between Ardern and Key is that his children were already grown up when he came into politics.

            • WeTheBleeple 14.2.1.1.3.1

              "absolutely fucking nothing"

              that's the weight of your opinion.

              • Ad

                Look across this country and give me a statistic that shows improvement.

                • WeTheBleeple

                  No. You make the ridiculous statements, you back them up. 

                  • New view

                    No Ad doesn’t have to back it up because there is nothing too back up. JA is a good speaker has a great personality and done a great job carrying our flag but in my opinion she is a piss poor politician that promised the world when electioneering but has delivered bugger all. She has stood by a housing minister that should’ve been tipped out months ago and the pathetic back down over the capital gains tax showed she has no backbone for real Government but still likes to front it. A lot of comments here bag National but at least you know what you’re getting and they actually get on with it. The only thing you know about this Government in my opinion, is that they’ll do anything to stay in Power. 

                    • WeTheBleeple

                      What a lot of utter shite.

                      National sold assets, fancied themselves new flag bearers, picked on young girls, doxed public members, gave the mates contracts, cashed in the earthquake, ignored insurance claims…

                      Off the top of my head. 

                      What's tragic is some people still believe they are capable of finding NZ on a map of NZ.

                    • New view []

                      WTB. Yes National sells assets. They don’t say they don’t. Some people think that’s a good idea some people don’t. The rest of your comment is emotional clap trap

                    • ankerawshark

                      New View.  Twyford has overseen the build of 3000 State houses and I like around 60% of Kiwis believe Kiwibuild is a good idea too.  Maybe you would if you were a first home buyer, seeing houses being snapped up by investors and or boomers.

                    • New view []

                      Twyfords Kiwi Build deficit is 16500. You can talk up what’s been built Or talk down what was promised. It’s easy to promise unattainable targets to get elected. That’s my beef with this Government. If they thought they could build them they were naive and incompetent. If they new they could never meet the targets they are cynical and power hungry. It’s not good enough to say, but their hearts in the right place. 

                • patricia bremner

                  Ad what is your problem? Improvements Imports,  income levels,  NZ housing builds, parliamentary debates, world opinion,  university rankings,  trust that the Government will "rise to meet occasions and problems effectively" Maori Language, The future of Mental health and Railways looks to be in hand,  plus the move from oil and natural gas to hydrogen ,  oh and gun control has begun,  all started in under 20 months.A great Leader.  Stats?   You find those to disprove the list which is here!! Lol lol

                • ankerawshark

                  Ad "astatistic that shows improvement"

                  Minimum wage increased twice,

                  Increase in salary for nurses and teachers.

                  600 (I think) extra sencos in schools

                  3000 state houses built ?  Kiwibuild houses built

                  Best start for parents when they have a baby ? $60 a week

                  Energy payment up to around $700 per year for low income and beneficiaries.

                  these are just a few I can think of.   But by all means Ad criticize.  And do feel free to vote National.  They did sweet f a.  But really those are the two realistic options we have in NZ

                  • adam

                    I could go through and pull apart what you wrote bit by bit – especially the housing issues.

                    But in reality ankerawshark that be pointless, because you won't address the underlying economic loonicy which this tinkering is doing sweet bugger all to fix.  

                    This government is supporting, indeed wholly thrown its weight behind, a far right economic ideology. And whilst it does that, people lives will continue to be wreaked, families will be destroyed, and our society will slowly wither. 

                    The economy needs to change, and without it changing – no amount of feel good projects are going to help. 

                    • WeTheBleeple

                      "economic loonicy "

                      loonicy like loonicy we've never seen before! 

                      Helping the poor!

                      Kept mad Turks from our doors!

                      Drained the shit out of walls!

                      Has the world enthralled!

                      But some are still sore!

                      As she has no man balls!

                      Old irrelevant white men, whinging about a woman

                      Higher than they'll ever be, she's a real good'n.

                • ankerawshark

                  Ad "astatistic that shows improvement"

                  Minimum wage increased twice,

                  Increase in salary for nurses and teachers.

                  600 (I think) extra sencos in schools

                  3000 state houses built ?  Kiwibuild houses built

                  Best start for parents when they have a baby ? $60 a week

                  Energy payment up to around $700 per year for low income and beneficiaries.

                  these are just a few I can think of.   But by all means Ad criticize.  And do feel free to vote National.  They did sweet f a.  But really those are the two realistic options we have in NZ

                  • marty mars

                    + 1 yep they are the facts which horrify the gnats… and ad

                    • cleangreen

                      Labour coalition are bringing back regional rail to get 'truck mania gridlock off our roads'

                      'Mr tarmac' (Joyce) is hating the thought of resurecting the 'peoples railway' that he attempted to totally destroy.

                • adam

                  Well said Ad, glad you got touched by reality.  

                  The problem is we are still firmly in the grip of far right economics.

                  And no amount of smiling, babies, an tinkering is going to help. We need solid change. Personally I'd like the centre left to catch on to this, but I won't hold my breath. 

            • Dukeofurl 14.2.1.1.3.2

              "his children were already grown up when he came into politics."

              They were still in primary school back in 2002…17 years ago 

            • Ankerrawshark) 14.2.1.1.3.3
              • Ad I couldn’t disagree more.  Ardern manages her team well, she manages her coalition partners well and she fields the media perfectly……
              • she showed outstanding leadership after the Chch massacre.  She managed to get cross party agreement over changing the gun laws (even Chris bishop praised her leadership when petition was presented to parliament.   Then off to Paris to do what she could re FB live streaming such things.
              • the coalition is getting things done.  If I hear one more person slam kiwi build I will scream.  Now the only chance our kids could buy a house.  They are paying outrageous amount for shitty accommodation currently.
              • oh and did I mention mental health, increases to the minimum wage, increases to WFF.   
              • But Ad if you rather have National, that’s up to you
              • adam

                "Squirrel"

                Or more centre left b.s. coming from you Ankerrawshark). You get that politics is more than pretty little things?. It is the underlying economic and economic decisions which make people lives. We live in a country which is beholden to far right economic ideology. An ideology that is wreaking people lives, the fact that a left wing party is running with this bat shit crazy economic ideology is at the very least, heartbreaking. 

                To play lesser of two evils card is a sad joke – that line of think gave us trump. You know people who are desperate vote for demagogues, NZLP know this too. I don't know why so many of the centre left think it is acceptable to carry on this situation of economic loonacy. 

                • The Al1en

                  All right, slogan boy, outline in a couple of paragraphs exactly what you'd locally do economically and socially, and internationally policy wise, paying specific attention to how you would persuade the 90% of current, so called neo lib voters to back your plans.

                  Prove you're more than the equivalent of a political tiny Tim of intellectual thinking.

                  • Charlie

                    You won't get anything new other than "go left". It's all these dimwits like Ad, Adam, etc can chant, they have bugger all policy ideas and just throw rocks. Pissing on the tent is all they have to offer.

                    • The Al1en

                      I agree. Unless there's policy ideas being put forward, then all there will ever be are slogans and insults, which, by the way, centre left isn't one. It's said like it's a bad thing.

                      What we don't need are people who rail against national governments, slagging off labour and the greens, and then go and vote for national's support partners at the election. That's just really silly, eh, TT?

                    • adam

                      So Keynesian economics, ecological economics,  or indeed any form that Social Democracy with a different economic structure is a step to far for you ah Charlie?

                      Feel free to carry on with the usual crap from the centre left on this site, personal abuse to make up for your lack of ability to think. 

                  • adam

                    Go do your right wing shrill thing somewhere else the al1en, you really are a low life tory scum bag. 

                    • The Al1en

                      So you refuse to provide a policy platform and competent analysis of how you'd sell it to the NZ public, then? Blimey, slogans and insults, who'd have guessed it? Clue, I did. lol

                      Again I'm no more a tory than you are a credible political commentator. Easy.

                      And it has to be said, because people may have better lives than you, made more of their talents, or achieved more in life than a chip on a shoulder, it doesn't make them scum, middle class or worthy of your desperate attacks. But you can't see that with all your negativity and hatred. Never mind, come your glorious revolution, you'll be all right then. 🙄

                    • adam

                      Sorry you can't read, and you have no comprehension.

                      I'm not going to debate with a faux left wing asshole like you the al1en, because anyone who calls anyone a "crippled cunt" is a low life piece of tory shit. I thought that would be obvious to anyone with half a brain. 

                      As for all the "boohoo/poor me crap" your peedling to make yourself feel better – It just tells me you have no grasp on the real world. Which is another reason why you need to f*&k off back to tory land, you sad sack of shit. 

                    • The Al1en

                      Well at least you pulled back on the racism this time and didn't tell me to go back home to the tory land I came from. That's a big improvement. I guess even the stupid ones are capable of learning the rules of the game.

                      It still doesn't change the fact that all you offer up are slogans and insults, and when you've been directly challenged to provide some sort of policy agenda to back up your views, the quite farcical understanding of NZ politics make you look like a broken, limp dick, trying to willy wave.

                      I'm quite capable of handling your brand of nasty, so I'll keep on asking, given how we're all supposed to be right wing/faux left/neo lib scum supporting this right wing/faux left/neo lib government, what are your policy ideas to make your rim clinging utopia come to pass? And how do you intend to convince the 90% of voters who you frame as scum to get on board?

                      It's a platform for you to shine. You don’t have to debate, just put the program out there in the real world we’re living in.

                    • adam

                       

                      Your a sad little man the al1en, with no comprehension skills, I see still just makes shit up. 

                      Let me just reiterate – because you are  so stupid you need to be told like a hundred times before you can understand. 

                      Go do your right wing shrill thing somewhere else, you low life tory scum bag. 

                      [You’re in fine form, Adam, but please take it down a few notches. Thanks – Incognito

                      What is wrong with this thread no. 14?]

                    • Incognito []

                      See my moderation note @ 8:22 PM.

                    • The Al1en

                      I have seen the posts you've made since I just asked you to, so well done for that, even if not directly after my post.

                      The hate I see, and take in my stride. What you haven't done, though, is provide details. It all looks very much like more slogans with no meat on the bones. Lets see some flesh. Tell us how you're convincing the voters you call scum.

                • ankerawshark

                  OK Adam, I hear your point of view about underlying economic  ideology. And I don’t dispute that.  Do you have any practical suggestions for a way forward with that? 

                  Ad asked for any statistics that had changed under the coalition and I listed some.   You may well think its centre left bullshit, but actually all I did was list facts.  No one asked me for an ideological take on things.  

                  I am a pragmatist.  I get a vote every three years and its either a National lead or a Labour lead Govt.   IMO nobody has presented a credible third option that would change that scenario.  I also try to do other things that might improve the world as and where I can.   I realise you may not approve of this or have a different view point of what needs to happen and I accept that.

                  I did everything within my power to get Labour voted in, because I believed and still do, that National were and remain scumbags, who don't give a shit about people.

                  I am not sure how you conclude that the lesser of two evils gave us Trump.  I guess you might mean that if he had of made it through the primaries, Bernie Saunders would have beaten Trump.  I am not sure we can ever know that. Maybe you have some information that supports a Saunders win.

                     

                  • adam

                    Yes, Social democratic ones. 

                    Two quick changes to the economy, remove the reserve bank act for starters, and take us off  dependance on a single commodity – as in milk – as quickly as possible. 

                    Follow this up with a green new deal approach to the economy, somthing like the Green New Deal being talked about in the US. 

                    https://www.vox.com/energy-and-environment/2018/12/21/18144138/green-new-deal-alexandria-ocasio-cortez

                    Radical ideas, mass devolution within the economy and move it towards a parecon economy.  Remove the trading banks – only have co-op banks. Shut down the stock market, and make it illegal to exploit individuals or groups for economic gain. Mutualism and Co-operative economic programmes given the opportunity to grow.

                    Alongside that I'd push Ecological Economics, try having a look at Tim Jackson here a download. 

                    http://www.sd-commission.org.uk/data/files/publications/prosperity_without_growth_report.pdf

                     

                    • The Al1en

                      Social democracy isn't really that radical, and most labour people will identify with it, though you'll note it operates under liberalism and embraces capitalism, something you're very opinionated on, usually including the word scum. How do you reconcile the ideology you now aspire to with your usual words?

                      "a political, social and economic philosophy that supports economic and social interventions to promote social justice within the framework of a liberal democratic polity and a capitalist mixed economy. The protocols and norms used to accomplish this involve a commitment to representative and participatory democracy, measures for income redistribution and regulation of the economy in the general interest and welfare state provisions. In this way, social democracy aims to create the conditions for capitalism to lead to greater democratic, egalitarian and solidaristic outcomes."

                    • adam

                      Piss off  the al1en, you tory hack – go troll someone else.

                    • The Al1en

                      Whose trolling? I'm asking you to explain your obnoxious attitude towards people, like me, who are long term backers of social democratic politics, when it appears you're now advocating for the same thing, even though it's not radical nor way outside the long standing remit of centre left labour parties everywhere.

                      Why not cut the attitude, drop the insults and attempt to clarify your position?

                    • ankerawshark

                      Ok thanks Adam.  I appreciate your reply.  and I will read the link (just had a quick look at it already).

                      Take care

                    • adam

                      I've asked you to piss off the al1en, because you use violent threats and abuse.

                      Then if that fails you go the whole poor me routine. 

                      Your faux leftism is sad. 

                      [And I asked you nicely last night to take it down a few notches – Incognito]

                    • Incognito []

                      See my moderation note @ 2:43 PM.

                    • The Al1en

                      You're boo hooing enough for all of us, mate. Very tedious.

                      I'd much prefer reading, now that you've finally found social democracy, how you intend to walk back on the insults to like minded centre left labour/green voters you've repeatedly called middle class scum. How do you reconcile that nasty generalising position when they believe in the same ideology you now profess to?

                       

                    • adam

                      Oh do bugger off the al1en you tory fuck.

                      You have never retracted your threats of violence, nor apologised for  calling me a 'crippled cunt' 

                       

                      p.s because you actually lack any comprehension skills I'm not a social democrat  – I'd just be happy if retards like you actually started acting like one, rather that the tory scum bags that you do act like. 

                      [Third and last time I ask nicely for you to please drop the aggro against The Al1en and move past what’s in the past – Incognito]

                    • Incognito []

                      See my Moderation note @ 1:48 PM.

                    • The Al1en

                      You still crying about me stating no matter how racist you were towards me, I'd never insult you in an equally appalling way by calling you a crippled cunt, for example? But then going on to call me a retard by way of an insult. 🙄

                      So about you now not being a social democrat but wanting the same things social democracy brings. What's that all about? You want the 'middle class scum' to do what they've already been doing for years? Okay.

                      By the way, you know social democrats and even socialists can be from all walks of life, from the working class to lords and ladies? Which brings about another question, what is the class system in NZ? Is it really about class or about income? I see many people with loads of money and no class whatsoever. Or is it just a slogan you throw about with all the others?

                • WeTheBleeple

                  Conspiracy theorist much?

              • marty mars

                + 1 yep we are seeing change happening – nice list there thanks. We don't need the fake fair weather friends cos they are not friends at all just gnats.

                • adam

                  You could try looking at the economy marty mars, and see that many of the systems that the last government used make life horrendous for  many people, are still in place  – ready to be exploited by them again. 

                  If we do not fundamentally change in how we run the economy, what the hell is the point? Or is it just – 'ra ra' own team won, good fun partisan shit fuckery – your now a fan of. 

                  • marty mars

                    sure adam I know you think your brainy and have worked it all out but guess what? we already know… it's sorta old news… yes the economy blah blah blah – how about this buddy – try voting and being on the team that MAKES change rather than the one that just talks about it.

                    • adam

                      As always you got nothing marty mars.

                      Well don't complain when the nats do their thing, if all you got is the same old same old. 

                      By the way you may have noticed I don't say much on here these days, because I'm actually doing things to change our society for the better – rather than thinking that doing the same thing will produce a different result. 

                    • marty mars

                      good for you

            • marty mars 14.2.1.1.3.4

              The only difference between Ardern and Key is that his children were already grown up when he came into politics.

              What a pathetic commentary for this blog – ffs the sooner we get into deeper leftie politics the sooner we will find the dags dropping off naturally.

        • Dukeofurl 14.2.1.2

          English had said many times  he didnt want to be PM/party leader again either

      • marty mars 14.2.2

        + 1 exactly – seems a rewrite of herstory there – sad to see some supposedly labour people be so close to the gnat lines but not surprising from ad

        • Hanswurst 14.2.2.1

          Agreed. When Labour were in opposition, Ad was all incrementalist and sneered at any suggestion of seriously left-wing policies. Now labour is in government, and increments aren't enough.

          • adam 14.2.2.1.1

            NZLP are not incremental at all.

            No fundamental economic changes have happened in a incremental way. 

            • Hanswurst 14.2.2.1.1.1

              I actually agree with you. However, Ad's advocacy of incrementalism always seemed to be chiefly about governments needing to take the electorate with them in small steps, rather than about incrementally reinventing the economic wheel, and that was what I was referring to. There's a difference between stating one's own views and commenting on contradictions in what others have said.

          • greywarshark 14.2.2.1.2

            Have you considered that it was the right line for that stage of the election-political cycle.   But that now so many things have not gone forward, he is getting impatient.   Change us all around us and taking a different line than a year or so ago is not the end of the world when it is a supporter.   A politician might even find it necessary to change.

            • Hanswurst 14.2.2.1.2.1

              Have you considered that it was the right line for that stage of the election-political cycle.

              Yes. However, I've never seen him say as much, and what I would actually expect from someone who pushes the sort of (in the context of NZ since the 1980s) centre-right economic policy that Ad has for years, then turns around and sneers at a government doing more or less exactly what they had been demanding, is that they might put their hands up and admit that they were part of the problem, rather than constantly throwing out threadbare and contradictory arguments with an air of smug, detached superiority.

  14. Janice 15

    JLR is not about to resign, so Botany by-election is not a goer.  They will have to persuade someone like Nick or Jerry to resign (I can dream can't I), and parachute Luxton in there, to get him in before the next election. 

  15. Incognito 16

    Someone is trying to muddy test the waters.

  16. observer 17

    A good summary here from the Spinoff website:

    https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/22-06-2019/the-curious-case-of-the-national2020-newspaper-ad-that-national-disavows/

    So, we know who placed it – not the official National party, but a rich right winger with an agenda. $20,000 is a lot of money to spend on undermining Simon Bridges, when he does it so well for free. Should have spent it on legal advice.

    • Dukeofurl 17.1

      promoter statement is a Christchurch address …Luxton is from Christchurch before his corporate career took off.

      • observer 17.1.1

        Stick to the known facts. Drawing ridiculously long bows is not necessary.

        We know who placed the ad.

    • WeTheBleeple 17.2

      Theory: He's shitting himself his loan sharking days are numbered. He wants to be rid of Simon and get someone who he thinks might save the day for his greedy little grubbings. Spent 20K rather than dropped interest on his short term high interest loan sharking; cos a free rein draining the arteries of the poor is worth well more than 20K long term.

    • michelle 17.3

      so the rich are getting upset are they so they start spending wads of cash so the spoilt little serve serving pricks of which we have many in our country can get there own way 

  17. Paul Campbell 18

    I dunno, looks like Muldoon to me

  18. observer 19

    Media interest: lead story on TV3, closely followed by TV1.

    The Nats will be spewing. With friends like these, who needs enemies?

  19. SPC 20

    A spokesperson for National says they will be taking no action. 

    Must come under the cover of "pretty legal",  done by someone with money, has low standards and who supports National …   

  20. AB 21

    Luxon would be worse than Bridges. The delivery would be more fluent but the content inferior – burble burble business bollocks burble burble kiwis burble business bollocks dynamic burble bollocks economy business bollocks. Guys like this should be three a penny but are paid way more than they are worth.

    "I prefer the company of peasants because they have not been educated sufficiently to reason incorrectly" (Montaigne)
     

  21. ankerawshark 22

    AB …..love it

  22. Formerly Ross 23

    The advert is a take-off of Dick Frizzell's "Mickey to Tiki". It's sort of appropriate as I always thought John Key was Mickey Mouse.

    https://www.prints.co.nz/page/fine-art/PROD/8217

  23. ankerawshark 24

    Formerly Ross, yes National and their supporters don't seem to mind copying others with no respect for copy right.  I guess they will say this rip off of Frizzel is pretty legal

  24. cleangreen 25

    "National Party are a toxic pool of sharks".

  25. Key is in trouble over the Hisco saga, so now he is trying to divert attention away from that by bringing up the bloody flag issue again.

    A real devious bastard, he is.

     

  26. JustMe 27

    If New Zealanders are stupid enough to vote for Luxon or any other National MP then will that mean John Key may get his way with a flag change?

    Meaning Key recently indicated if he was still part time prime minister of New Zilland he would have made the flag change himself and to Hell with the democratic process of letting the NZ Public have a say.

    Luxon comes across as a John Key supporter.  He(Luxon)will obey his Dearest Leader John Key and if Key said "I want the flag changed and I don't care what the public think" Luxon will merely reply "Seig Heil Mein Fuhrer".

    If Key tells Luxon that he wants GST increased will Luxon again meekly obey?

    And so we will have it in that from a distance Key will deem himself as an absolute leader(dictator)and Luxon will be the face of National.   Gawd that is enough to make one cringe at the thought.

    • greywarshark 27.1

      That's an uncomfortable thought JustMe.    The leader who won't lie down and stay down is awkward .

  27. Ffloyd 28

    Wouldn't there be a copyright on that image? Plagiarism at its finest.

     

  28. soddenleaf 29

    Luxon is irrelevant, Key was such a dishonest lazy lousy PM that he needs to be framed as a authority by his PR people. Maybe allegedly as part of his Luxons exit package. Tax switch was a hand out for wealthy people, it was the height of lying to say it was balanced.

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