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Open Mike 23/12/2018

Written By: - Date published: 7:43 am, December 23rd, 2018 - 156 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

156 comments on “Open Mike 23/12/2018 ”

  1. Ed 1

    Looks like it was a suburban couple who caused all the drone mayhem in the UK….


    • James 1.1

      iF it was them – then I doubt it they did it because they lived in ‘the burbs’

      I’m sure it will come out they were climate change fanatics or just pissed off with the noise of planes despite them living in a flight path.

      • cleangreen 1.1.1

        James = another straw man.

        • james

          cleangreen = another hufflepuff.

          See how stupid your comment is?

          Try to discus the post as opposed to a single one line insult that has nothing to do with anything.

          • greywarshark

            Boring children. Will you stop squabbling and learn how to use self-control when making sharp criticisms or points on the blog?? You have been coming here long enough – you have served your apprenticeship, now show your skills and stop being foolish, or go to where you would fit in just great.

    • Matiri 1.2

      That’s the town where I grew up …. with my English mother and Kiwi father.

      • James 1.2.1

        Oh no – for goodness sake don’t let people know you were in the UK.

        Soon muttonbird will be demanding you show your residency application and the every outraged reason will be all upset.

        • reason

          Your Still being a Dick pick troll James … ugly little englishman

          I’ve explained when you deeply offended me ….

          It was when I was ” Feeling strong emotions and knowing the reality behind two suicides in my wider circle ”

          During that time, here at The Standard you posted ” a particularly shit stained troll post …. with you pretending to care about suicide … while painting the national party as off-bounds for criticism … according to you their dirty hands were clean …”

          Your response to what I wrote was ,,,, “oh here we go – poor easily offended (lack of) reason – who indeed is a snowflake” . … which you tried to back away from despite obviously responding to what i had written.

          Now your saying I’m easily outraged …. I wasn’t even outraged when you nominated the rape threatening Jair Bolsonaro as your pick for the most “charismatic” politician in the world.

          James ” I would happy bet you a months ban if you can find anything saying I admire Jair Bolsonaro.”

          Muttonbird …. “Well you did say he is more charismatic than Jacinda Ardern who you didn’t rate as charismatic at all despite her forming a government within a month of becoming leader of her party. That’s as big an endorsement of Jair Bolsonaro as you can get really.”

          Who other than James, thinks that picking rape happy right wing Jair Bolsonare for most charismatic world leader ,,, is anything other a sign of endorsment / admiration.

          • James

            I think I said always offended and easily outraged- your point tend to point this out as fact.

            You need to relax a little.

            • marty mars

              You’ve now had multiple chances to back off but you refuse to do that. Instead you ridicule a person for their pain. You’re a sad, ugly sack of shit jamesy.

              • veutoviper

                On this occasion I am going to disagree with you, marty. Muttonbird and reason have been doing a pile on of James for months now – making claims about James where their only backup of their statements has been selective claims and quotes that each have made about what the other or James has said – but with no links to the actual original statements/comments made by James or themselves in earlier comments. They also have had multiple chances to back off when challenged but have also refused to do so. James has the same right as anyone else to challenge such claims and to defend himself IMHO and this is a case of the pot calling the kettle black.

                • Bewildered

                  Agree a lot of projecting by commenters on this site about jsnes and then they all get prissy and oh so offended when cracks back, especially Marty who is as tough teak on his key board Ed in contrast is just fun

                • reason

                  Vetroviper …..I was disgusted when James made his troll suicide post …. he may as well have have pissed on the graves of the young teenage girl and the father of young children who were victims of our society…. and causing such sorrow to people I know and love.

                  I did not have the emotional energy to give him the serve he deserved at the time …… but I marked his troll card for future attention.

                  As for the fact James is an englishman …. he himself wrote it and I took note.

                  Ignoring the fact trolls are bad faith posters whose purpose is to waste time ….

                  …. to derail

                  … and to perform the tasks that sending a dick pick achieves … to Lower the tone … to offend …. and make site users experience unpleasant.

                  Ignoring all that ….. Tell or show me how to do a search of james post on this site and i actually will waste my time on him .. even though he could easily go yes or no ……a simple yes or no ….to the fact i have brought up about him.

                  James response to not denying ( the no option ) is as follows ….

                  James …. “Well – ive been insuiating that you are a fuckwit and you’ve never said anything about it … so that must be a valid citation you are a fuckwit.”

                  To which I reply
                  a) this is the first time he’s openly called me a fuckwit
                  b) this is an opinion …. not a fact …. different in that being english is a fact.
                  c) it’s an opinion from a troll / dickpick … and worth nothing.

                  If he were to call me something that was not opinion Russian or Chinese ….. I’d point out what a stupid clown he is.

                  I wonder why he hasn’t to me???? ….

                  A while ago I wrote a post on trolls and how they operate ….. it’s obviously time for another

                  James will feature ….. with him demonstrating the only consistent thing with a political troll is support for their ‘team’ …. which makes them morally inconsistent.

                  James will demonstrate this with his conflicting stances and attitudes to sexual assault …..

                  Featuring Waikato rugby players ….. a bullying hair fetish prime minister …. Oxfam …. and the Labour Party youth camp….. All of which evoked very different attitudes and posts from James.

                  Personally I’m trolls ……….. they are dishonest dick picks … and I try to spoil their fun ….

                  rip n8v child

                  • reason

                    Personally I dislike trolls ……….. they are dishonest dick picks … and I try to spoil their fun ….

                    rip n8v child …. a talented kiwi james spat on

                  • James

                    You’re sounding like you are losing it there Reason.

                    Quick question- why do you think being English is a bad thing? You seem to think it’s an insult or something?

                    It’s not cool to use casual racism like that.

                    And what is it that makes you so fascinated with doc pics? You’ve mentioned them like three times today.

                    • Grafton Gully

                      You love to celebrate royal occasions, are obsessed with the class system, do everything by the book, love to queue and drink tea all day ?

                    • James []

                      I do love a good cuppa.

                    • reason

                      Losing it ? …. this is what losing it looks like ….. “Well – ive been insuiating that you are a fuckwit and you’ve never said anything about it … so that must be a valid citation you are a fuckwit.”

                      Being an English man is not a bad thing … unless you are a bad Englishman …. Being an immigrant is relevant when commenting on Maori rights & racism,….which you have not held back from …. Or absolving right wing political choices and racism for NZ’s high suicide rates, particularly severe for Maori ….. Or when you bash NZ people on benefits ,,,,, or telling us there has always been NZers living in cars …. etc etc

                      Trolls may be mainly a threat to billy goats …. but Troll is a poor description of what your sort do on the internet.

                      You share the most in common with dick picks …. unsolicited Sending your ugly self.

                      To Lower the tone … to offend …. make site users experience unpleasant…. and your unpleasantness have more of a negative impact on women.

                      If it appears I troll the trolls …… then technically I could be called a dick whacker ……

                      and your one of the dicks ….. james

                    • James []

                      Dear snowflake – By god your grammar is terrible.

                      Did you not study English ?

    • Ed 1.3

      It may be more complicated…
      Sounds like a good alibi.

      “Forensic squads are now said to be searching a van outside their home but the probe was thrown into confusion as Mr Gait’s boss John Allard said he was at work.

      Mr Allard, who runs a double glazing firm in Crowborough, said he could ‘account for Paul’s movements between the hours of 7am and 5pm last Monday to Friday’.”


      • greywarshark 1.3.1

        I was wondering when these drone hazards become regarded as terrorist attacks. Because they are just as bad and done for a malign reason, actually without any real brain reason being applied at all.

        ‘Duh, I’m really keen on these drones and thought it was a good thing to do. And it tests the defences of the airport too, so I’m being helpful really.’ /sarc

  2. Ed 2

    Chris Hedges nails it.

    “We Can’t Fight Climate Change if We Keep Lying to Ourselves

    The inability to see what is in front of our eyes replicates the blindness of all past civilizations that celebrated their eternal glory at moments of precipitous decline. The difference is that life across the whole planet will go down this time. It is comforting to pretend this is not happening, to foster false hopes and fool ourselves with the myth of human progress, but these illusions only tranquilize us at a moment when we should be rising in collective fury against those who are orchestrating our doom.”


    [Ed, you’ve been told repeatedly not to spam the site. Put up your own opinions, please. TRP]

    • Tuppence Shrewsbury 2.1

      It’s too early for this bull shit practise of using quotes as comments. Intellectual dishonesty on a Sunday morning

      • cleangreen 2.1.1

        Tuppence Shrewsbury = “straw man extreme”

        • greywarshark

          You present my own thoughts. It is a cunning plan the RWNJs have – to take on the role of irritated superior committed supporters of this blog about anyone who gathers ire from the moderators. Like the sneak at school sucking up to the teacher to get a jibe at another student.

          and maui
          I agree with you. I really want to know what is being said in other outlets and by people of note, and videos, but not a line of them opened up all the way down the screen from the same person. Even when they are from different people, it is possible to have a video battle between 2 or 3 people. Restraint, think of what others would want Standadistas.

          I don’t mind a paragraph that lays down an opinion with context. Joe90 does this quite often and it is very enlightening. So Ed is at fault when he takes over the site publishing other’s opinions and spreading his statements and thoughts to excess.

          I have suggested that it would be good if we limited our comments; to say 5 an hour, then we would either get a bunch or more spaced, but not dominating the flow. We need to keep up the flow, I do miss so many of those from even the past year, and of course further back.

      • mauī 2.1.2

        We could just ban anyone who posts a quote or video… that would be the end of about half the commentariat.

    • cleangreen 2.2

      es Ed these ‘straw men’ – James and Tuppence Shrewsbury need to learn the term “in the real world” reality that climate change is now upon jus and nothing they try to believe will change the fact that we are locked into a catastrophe of a climate now spinnng out of control.

      They will reap what they sow eventually.

    • Ed 2.3

      I agree with Chris Hedges. I said he nails it.

      By the way, many other people put up links with even less comment. Save NZ at 3 for example.

      I am confused.
      What have I done that other don’t do.

      [This has been explained to you many times, by multiple moderators. Banned till Jan 1, 2019. TRP]

      • Drowsy M. Kram 2.3.1

        Ed, thanks for your comments and links this year – admire your perseverance.

        Wishing you well for the Xmas-New Year ‘break’.

    • SPC 2.4

      Maybe there should be a links to commentary page set up each week.

    • SaveNZ 3.1

      What I despise the most about the rise of the ‘woke left’ is that they have lost sight of actually changing the fundamentals of equality aka valuing and accounting for at a government and economic and social level all the work that (mostly women) do that is unpaid and their part in ignoring the environmental impacts of unlimited growth.

      We expect ignorance and lack of action from the right wingers but the sad news is that now the woke left is more likely to spit the dummy at Rachel Stewart, attack the centre left while giving their questions to the Natz, support Karel Sroubek’s residency while not much peep about NZ prisoners not even being able to vote, give water rights to Chinese overseas interests while apparently being oblivious to the human rights abuses over there or the environmental impacts, not a peep out of all the immigration scams from people paying for their job https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/107073384/the-big-scam-the-tip-of-an-immigration-scam-iceberg to dowry scams and the marriage of a special needs teen with mental ages of 7…. https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12123831

      • OnceWasTim 3.1.1

        Would you say that the ‘woke left’ have a lot in common with what we used to call the Chardonnay Socialist, and that it’s a phenomenon that’s directly proportional to their level of comfort within the particular bubble they inhabit?

        Sorry to be so deep and meaningful (or unmeaningful) so early on a Sunday morning.

        By the way, It’s good to see Fonseka and Kilgallon calling out the bullshit. They join others who’ve been trying for quite some time – at RNZ and even one at Granny as well as some in unions, Alistair McClymont and the guy in Chch, Migrant Worker’s Association.
        My ‘impression’ is that I L-G and Faafoi are listening but its taken a while for them to get a handle on things but its going to take a bit more time for INZ and the Labour Inspectorate to effect a huge cultural and structural change and so far it’s all a bit depressing to watch.

      • marty mars 3.1.2

        Your continued use of woke left shows me you’re part of the problem.
        You co opt words you don’t understand to build arguments against groups you aren’t part of.
        You may as well be a rwnj imo.

      • patricia bremner 3.1.3

        Not totally correct here SaveNZ. Extra inspectors have been reporting rorts involving migrants causing those employers to repay them, lose the right to hire them. Several scams have been prosecuted. Work is being done on forced marriages.
        The water rights were established under the previous Government. Later ones have been turned down.
        I see OncewasTim has outlined cases, so I’ll leave it there.

    • KJT 3.2

      One of our few politicians, with a heart.

    • SPC 3.3

      And ironically the most obvious solution to the problem of unpaid work is one feminists have not advocated.

      Payment of income support (at dole level) to the non working partner.

      1. For those with children under 5 no work test.
      2. For those doing voluntary work (including those doing unpaid caring work) no work test.
      3. For those without children or children over 5 with a work test.

      • KJT 3.3.1

        UBI. Used to be family benefit.
        Green party working on it now, but unconditional child support, paid to all mothers, kept the majority of children free from poverty in the sixties and seventies.

  3. James 4

    Not content with just having teachers strike now this government is going to have school principals marching on Wellington.


    • millsy 4.1

      Principals upset that their schools will lose the privileged position they have in the current education environment.

      • Ed 4.1.1

        Maclean’s and Auckland Grammar are the schools mentioned.

      • stunned mullet 4.1.2

        What is this privileged position they have in the current education environment ?

        • JanM

          Schools were set up in competition to each other under Tomorrows Schools rather than the co-operative model which previously existed. Certain schools worked to gain advantage, less for their students, more for the ‘reputations’ of their fiefdoms. All sorts of shenanigans have been operating from excluding local children, taking selected children from out of zone, and preventing children who may fail from sitting NCEA exams. While this may make the schools look good to the great unwashed, it flies in the face of the intention of public education to be offered fairly to all children. If you want to play silly beggars like that, open a private school, don’t rort the state system.
          To the best of my knowledge, only one school principal (at Cambridge High) has actually been caught and dealt with operating in this way

        • millsy

          Winner and loser schools have been created thanks to the TS reforms.

        • millsy

          TS have created winner and loser schools.

      • Ed1 4.1.3

        It is not clear why some principals are objecting to the proposals – from the article :
        “Taking power away from boards would create “bland, one-size-fits-all” institutions and destroy the role of communities in schools, Hargreaves said.

        He called on parents to oppose the recommendations and said parents had already been quick to voice their backing for him.

        Parents wanted to know they could have an impact on their children’s education through the board of trustees’ parent representatives, he said. “To think that that’s going to be passed over to another faceless bureaucracy is what really worries them,” he said. ”

        Some of that is refuted later in the article, but it is not clear at all what the specific concerns are, or whether they have correctly interpreted the proposals.

        Pooling resources in a local area does make sense for maintenance, property development, contracting, HR advice and services, and clearly there needs to be some consistency about zoning to ensure that is consistently applied (where needed) so that we have a reasonable level of fairness to both schools and potential pupils – as seen by the community not necessarily by individual schools.

        There has been an unseemly rush to jump to conclusions. I applaud the openness of the report to discussion, and I suspect the time given will not be long enough for some areas of concern. Articles looking for conflict are not helpful at this stage – it would have been interesting to have heard how the concerned principals believe the proposals would have the results they predict – I suspect they are imputing a detailed reasoning of their own to broad proposals where the details is currently absent.

    • KJT 4.2

      Principal’s that have been gaming the current system to maximize their own pay and power, at the expense of students and their communities are upset.

      My heart bleeds for them.

      • Herodotus 4.2.1

        citation to this rant ???
        Also nice to see that some here have so little regard to Principals thinking that their motivation is solely to max their pay – nothing to do with the students ??
        And I note that the McLeans principal was previously Principal of Wesley, so has the experience from 2 differing perspectives.

        • KJT

          I taught at both a high decile and low decile school.

          The low decile had a much higher standard of teaching, and children with family support, had better results than the high decile. In other words, if the low decile school had excluded students likely to get lower marks, as the higher decile one did, in many subtle ways, they would have way “out performed” the high decile.

          Those principal’s are from colleges that are able to pretend they are better schools by cherry picking students, simply perpetuating a class system. To the detriment of education for most children.

          • Herodotus

            I am sure then that only these 2 marching will gain little coverage, and would be a poor reflection on both. Yet I gather the march will number more than 2 and will cover a wider range of communities than just Epson and Bucklands Beach. And the Principals that march, will be doing as a display for their concern for current and future students, not selfish self interest to get paid more 🤑

            • KJT

              If they were really concerned for the future education of NZ children, they would not be trying to continue the, failed, competitive model exemplified by “Tomorrows Schools”.

              • Herodotus

                How do we know that the proposed changes would be an improvement of Labour’s “Tomorrow Schools” ?
                Looks to me like a power grab by a few bureaucrats/idealists. Similar perhaps to The 84 Labour Govt and how they introduced “Neoliberalism” – and look how that has turned out, and we have been dealing with that Labour govt decision since 😤

                • millsy

                  So what would you do then? Carry on with the competitive model? All TS has done is introduce the concept of ‘white flight’ to this country.

                  And there was still things like school choice and parental involvement before 1989. I remember my auntie and Uncle sending my cousin to a school the next suburb over even though they lived 600m from their local school. And this was in 85/86.

                • Draco T Bastard

                  How do we know that the proposed changes would be an improvement of Labour’s “Tomorrow Schools” ?

                  Wrong question.

                  We have a failing system. We know the previous system worked better even if not perfect.

                  Why would we not change the existing system to something that previously worked better while also changing the parts of it that weren’t the best?

                  Looks to me like a power grab by a few bureaucrats/idealists.

                  Looks to me like you’re talking out your arse and scaremongering.

            • millsy

              Schools will have the option to retain a lot of their powers under the proposals.

              Parents input into the running of schools will probably be strengthened, as they will have a layer of support to turn to if they are having problems with their school.

              As well, the TS setup is such that parents are largely passive consumers. Also, central government can shut down schools by Fiat.

        • Foreign waka

          Herodotus, the proposed changes are to put the financial, HR and H&S measures into professional hands. Principals should focus on the delivery of curriculum and the training of teachers to deliver an ever more skilled based job. This would be the convincing part of the choice of school if you really want to make such distinction. Nothing is holding anybody back to make donations, but it would be more transparent. Oh! is that the problem?

  4. cleangreen 5

    Protecting our environment & health.
    In association with other Community Groups, NHTCF and all Government Agencies since 2001.
    • Health and wellbeing.
    • East Coast Transport Project.
    • Save our Gisborne/Napier/Wellington rail project.
    • “No sale of Napier Port campaign”

    23rd December 2018.

    Subject; “So far it has been a nerve racking slow way back to a rail rebuilding industry we had all over NZ once.”

    ‘No thanks to the – “National Party rail wrecking machine that we witnessed over the last 30 yrs.”

    “It is now time to restore our ‘whole essential regional rail services in earnest”

    Dear rail stakeholders,

    Merry Xmas all,

    ‘This is hopefully just the beginning of our desperately needed rail renaissance.’

    Otago Daily Times
    Dunedin 16 | 10
    Sunday, 23 December 2018
    Send us news & photos
    More jobs in pipeline for revived Hillside.
    By Tim Miller

    South Dunedin’s Hillside workshops. Photo: ODT
    Six years after they were shuttered, the South Dunedin Hillside workshops are slowly coming back to life.
    KiwiRail is advertising for tradespeople to work on wagon conversions at the workshops in Hillside Rd.
    The advertisement says the work is varied and will cover all aspects of locomotive and wagon maintenance and repair.
    People having experience working with heavy plant and machinery, heavy automobiles, locomotives, and ships are encouraged to apply.
    KiwiRail rolling stock asset services general manager Adam Williams said about six new jobs were expected to be added to the 12 staff already working at the workshops.
    There had been significant growth in forestry logs being transported by rail, and KiwiRail had been preparing for some time for the ”Wall of Wood” to come on stream, Mr Williams said.
    Part of KiwiRail’s strategy involved converting existing container wagons to transport logs.

  5. Herodotus 6

    Good wishes to all those helping out at food banks cooking and serving lunches over this week and helping in some small way those less fortunate,
    Hopefully next year the need will be severely reduced

  6. gsays 7

    There is a comedy piece on stuff at the moment.

    Amongst other bits there is this gem about the national party: “In the hope it will keep the party’s rep as a slick operating unit – looking leaderly and switched on “…..

    For more giggles- https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/109528733/stacey-kirk-political-slates-wiped-clean-wont-stay-that-way-for-long-in-2019

  7. halfcrown 8

    There appear to be crisis talks by our government AGAIN with by another parasitical corporate called Amazon over the filming a TV version of Bored With The Rings in NZ
    We do have the money to pay out further corporate welfare when there are so many other issues that are more urgent to fix, and wage rates lowered for the benefit of another pack of parasites and being conned by the so-called benefits (yet to be seen ) to NZ
    Amazon needs to be told pay your fucking tax, no handouts from the NZ taxpayers, and no subsidised low wage rates for any people employed, that the NZ taxpayer has to subsidise with something similar to welfare stamps given to Amazon employees in the US.
    We don’t need more tourists, the countries infrastructure can barely cope with the massive inflows we are experiencing at the moment, and we certainly do not need further cheap unskilled immigration.
    Frankly, before any decision was made I would like to see an enquiry into the so-called benefits the last great fiddle the fucking spiv did with Warners and Jackson and how much NZ really benefited, as I cannot see any when we still have a high rate of child poverty. Also, and if no benefit to NZ, Amazon to be told to fuck off and pay the tax you have avoided on your way out.


    • KJT 8.1

      Subsidies to local productions, as the Ozzies do, has resulted in much greater benefits than, giving up labour laws, and huge amounts of money, to overseas corporate’s.

    • Draco T Bastard 8.2

      The only thing that private business seems efficient at is demanding ever higher subsidies from governments.

      Unfortunately, modern neo-liberal governments seem efficient in giving them.

      • Ad 8.2.1

        Everyone relies on the state.

        • KJT

          Neo-liberal business, relies on the State even more, but they refuse to fund it.

        • Draco T Bastard

          A society is a complex series of cross subsidies. That’s how societies, communities, work.

          Businesses, though, have been telling us for decades that subsidies are bad and that there is no society.

          Given this the best thing to do when a business demands subsidies is to say no.

          • shadrach

            I don’t know of a single business that has been “telling us for decades that…there is no society”. Can you name one? Business relies on societies to sell their goods and services. These societies are their markets, and businesses soon learn that they ignore them at their peril.

            • Draco T Bastard

              I don’t know of a single business that has been “telling us for decades that…there is no society”. Can you name one?

              It’s all part of the delusional ideology introduced by Thatcher, Reagan, Douglass.


              and businesses soon learn that they ignore them at their peril.

              They ignore society all the time. That’s what all those business confidence polls are about.

              • shadrach

                You didn’t say they ‘ignore society’ (which is in itself a nonsense claim), you said businesses have been telling us for decades that “there is no society”.

                This is a nonsense statement that you must have plucked straight from your fundamental orafice.

                Businesses can neither ignore or deny society, for the simple reason society comprises their customers! But there us much more. Societies and businesses are co-dependent. Business supplies goods and services, pays tax, employs people, supports charitable causes, the list goes on and on. If you seriously believe what you have written, you are so far out of touch of not just reality but history you are bordering on delusional.

                • Draco T Bastard

                  You didn’t say they ‘ignore society’ (which is in itself a nonsense claim), you said businesses have been telling us for decades that “there is no society”.

                  They do both.

                  It’s a fundamental part of the business psyche to put themselves above others. To invent excuses as to why they don’t have to work for the good of society. Why we suddenly Corporate Social Responsibility is a thing.

                  The Only Corporate Responsibility Is to Increase Profits

                  In 1970, just as the idea of corporate social responsibility was gaining traction and influential advocates in the United States, the economist Milton Friedman published a short essay titled “The Social Responsibility of Business is to Increase its Profits.” Possibly the most provocative single contribution to the history of business ethics, Friedman set out to show that large, publicly owned corporations ought to be about making money, and the ethical obligations imposed by advocates of CSR should be dismissed. His arguments convinced some and not others, but the eloquent and accessible way he made them, combined with the fact that his ideas were published in a mainstream publication—the New York Times Magazine—ensured their impact.Milton Friedman, “The Social Responsibility of Business Is to Increase Its Profits,” New York Times Magazine, September 13, 1970, accessed June 7, 2011, http://www.colorado.edu/studentgroups/libertarians/issues/friedman-soc-resp-business.html.

                  I’m pretty sure that there are a number of business people out there who still agree with Friedman and Thatcher. Hell, I know business people personally who say so.

                  Societies and businesses are co-dependent.

                  Yes they are. The problem is that most business people think that everyone else, who is not in a society, are totally dependent upon them. Considering that the laws have been drawn up to make that true I suppose that they’ve got a good case for it. As soon as government starts making it not true they start going on about communism and reds under the bed.

                  BTW, I note that I’m providing links.

                  You’re talking out your arse.

                  • shadrach

                    “It’s a fundamental part of the business psyche to put themselves above others.”
                    Rubbish. Again. Business relies on it’s customers, and it’s customers are society. But I’m still waiting for you to post links supporting your claim “businesses have been telling us for decades that “there is no society”. Still waiting.

                    “The problem is that most business people think that everyone else, who is not in a society, are totally dependent upon them. ”
                    Where do you get this crap? Who are these ‘most business people’? Smart business people recognise that their business is dependent on society, not the other way around. If they don’t they fail, because they continue to produce goods and services no-one wants.

                    “The Social Responsibility of Business is to Increase its Profits.”
                    And here’s an excellent response. https://journals.aom.org/doi/10.5465/amp.24.3.11

                    You clearly have no idea of how business works or what it contributes, so I’ll back up the article above wiht something simple for your New Years reading:




                    • Pat

                      “Rubbish. Again. Business relies on it’s customers, and it’s customers are society”

                      You conflate a target market with society….an industry that markets say housing to high wealth individuals thinks not of the impact of its actions on any segment that is outside its target market…and nor can it as if it does it will lose market share to a competitor who does not.

                      The weighing of overall benefit to society of market actions was the role of government…a role abandoned some decades ago.

                      Now the real political power exercised in a democracy is relative to the ability to consume/invest.

                    • Draco T Bastard

                      Rubbish. Again. Business relies on it’s customers, and it’s customers are society.

                      And that would be why businesses are always screwing down wages right?
                      Why they don’t like unions?

                      Yes, over the last few years there’s been a big build-up in socially conscious businesses. I note that the first thing that Forbes article does is blame the actions of the employees. See, this is called blame shifting and, when you get right down to it, whitewashing.

                      Is it possible for a business to be part of society? Yes. Are they? No. They’re just there to make a profit and unearned income for their owners.

                    • shadrach

                      “You conflate a target market with society…”
                      No, I don’t. A target market is not necessarily static. A target market can change, as a business expands, contracts or diversifies. But a target market is a subset of society.

                      “….an industry that markets say housing to high wealth individuals thinks not of the impact of its actions on any segment that is outside its target market…and nor can it as if it does it will lose market share to a competitor who does not.”
                      Rubbish. You assume that the pursuit of profit can always be achieved by ignoring everything outside a firms target market. You simply have no idea what your talking about.

                    • shadrach

                      “And that would be why businesses are always screwing down wages right?”
                      They aren’t always screwing down wages. In some cases business will pay more to get a higher quality workforce. It is the market that ultimately determines what a job is worth, with moderation from outside elements such as the minimum wage.

                      “Why they don’t like unions?”
                      Who? Are you seriously suggesting all businesses ‘don’t like unions’?

                      “Is it possible for a business to be part of society? Yes. Are they? No.”
                      Of course they are. They employ people. They pay tax that is used to pay for stuff you use.

                      “They’re just there to make a profit and unearned income for their owners.”
                      You really don’t have a clue do you? Where dd you develop this hatred for business? Is it jealousy that without business society as we know it could not function?

                      And I’m still waiting for you to post links supporting your claim “businesses have been telling us for decades that “there is no society”. Still waiting.

                    • Pat

                      lol…already you walk away from and qualify your original statement.

                      “Rubbish. Again. Business relies on it’s customers, and it’s customers are society. But I’m still waiting for you to post links supporting your claim “businesses have been telling us for decades that “there is no society”. Still waiting.”

                      Go ahead and name one company or product that demonstrates that “Businesses can neither ignore or deny society, for the simple reason society comprises their customers!”

                    • shadrach

                      “lol…already you walk away from and qualify your original statement.”
                      I haven’t walked away from anything.

                      “Go ahead and name one company or product that demonstrates that “Businesses can neither ignore or deny society, for the simple reason society comprises their customers!””
                      Kodak. Kodak ignored the shift to digital photography (among other trends). They filed for bankruptcy in 2012. The demise of Kodak, and it’s subsequent regeneration, is well documented.

                      Then there’s…
                      Pan Am

                      And there are many, many more. I can give you the reasons each failed if you like; all relate to a failure to relate to the changing needs of their customers.

                • Pat

                  Thank you for providing examples of companies that did indeed ignore their target markets (and competitors) and consequently failed…..society continued.

                  Pity you remain unable to distinguish between the two

                  • shadrach

                    Oh so you were looking for an example of a single business failure that brought down the whole of society? Why didn’t you just ask that? Or are you actually sidestepping?

                    What you fail to understand is that business and society have a type of co-dependency. Not a single business and society. The failure of a single business can harm society, but it won’t destroy it. But the success of a society is largely dependent on the success of business generally, because of employment, tax revenues etc.

                    I can help you to understand by asking you this…in a world without business, who would employ all of the people currently employed? Provide the tax revenue that pays for your hospital visits and the roads you drive on? Who would provide the goods and services you use? Provide the independent blogs, such as the one we are having this discussion on?

                    • Pat

                      “Oh so you were looking for an example of a single business failure that brought down the whole of society? Why didn’t you just ask that? Or are you actually sidestepping?”

                      Deliberate misinterpretation and absurdity appear to be a theme with you….I sought a single example of a business/product that considered society as opposed to target market …I wont hold my breath waiting as it is obviously beyond your ken.

                    • shadrach

                      “I sought a single example of a business/product that considered society as opposed to target market ”
                      What? That is gibberish. And it isn’t what you wrote. Here’s what you wrote:

                      “Go ahead and name one company or product that demonstrates that “Businesses can neither ignore or deny society, for the simple reason society comprises their customers!””

                      I named several. Then you changed the question to:
                      “…companies that did indeed ignore their target markets (and competitors) and consequently failed…..society continued.”

                      You are simply being dishonest. And you’re squirming. So I’ll give you another chance:

                      “I can help you to understand by asking you this…in a world without business, who would employ all of the people currently employed? Provide the tax revenue that pays for your hospital visits and the roads you drive on? Who would provide the goods and services you use? Provide the independent blogs, such as the one we are having this discussion on?”

                    • Pat

                      as i gift you zyzzyva I ask how many opportunities should be presented to the wilfully obtuse?
                      (clue, the answer isnt ’42’)

                    • shadrach

                      “as i gift you zyzzyva I ask how many opportunities should be presented to the wilfully obtuse?”
                      You mean how many opportunities should you be given to answer my simple question? Go on. You’re the one criticizing businesses. Tell us who’ll employ people and generate tax revenue for welfare, for housing, for health, for education….

    • halfcrown 8.3

      Oops a typo It should read ‘We do NOT have the money etc

  8. Cinny 9

    Holiday info for any driving through or coming to Motueka.

    Our main st (High St) is bumper to bumper this time of year, if you see anyone struggling to cross the road, or exit a driveway, please stop and let them cross/through.

    It only takes a couple of seconds. THANKS 🙂


    The best sneaky car parking in town is behind Whitwells in the main street.

    The cheapest fuel is at the self serve NPD at the beginning of town, just after the one and only roundabout.

    Enjoy your visit 🙂

  9. Morrissey 10

    Paddy Ashdown R.I.P.

    A memory from someone who met him:

    Never liked his politics, and didn’t like his public image; and this was duly reinforced when I once had the misfortune, with a handful of other people, including a French couple, to spend an evening with him & his wife Jane; he spent the entire evening chatting up the French woman, in French, rudely ignoring the rest of us, and embarrassing his wife.


  10. Ad 11

    Lord of the Rings tv series is coming!

    • Morrissey 11.1

      Will they pay the technicians and actors a decent wage this time?

      • greywarshark 11.1.1

        Jobs, interest by government, the minimum wage has just gone up, and perhaps people here can think up some jobs-rich projects that might become permanent, and put these to government while it is receptive to financing start-ups.

        (Tip: Do a business plan, study your projected market, think about the angle you are going to appeal to.)

    • millsy 11.2

      The movie industry will be dead in 10 years. Online steaming services and suscriber TV will take it’s place.

      • James 11.2.1

        You do know that this is being produced by amazon right ?

        And the movie industry won’t be dead – movie theatres may be – but not the movie making industry- they just change how their product is delivered.

        • millsy

          As I said before. Stories being told in this format will overtake the standard 2hr movie. Marvel’s works are the only thing holding up theatres at the moment.

          Even Star Wars has failed to ignite audiences, though that is probably down the storyline of the new trilogy more than anything else

          • James

            You need to get out more:

            Incredibles 2, bohemian rhapsody, mission impossible fallen, fantastic beast, the meg. All huge box office success and not marvel.

          • KJT

            Original movies still hit the mark, at times.

            Star wars was a fresh and original take on the Sci-fi movie, in it’s day.

            Moviemakers failing to inspire audiences, with endless sequels and re hashes of old movies, is not surprising.

        • I feel love

          “Movie theatres are on the way out” like guitar bands and vinyl. Cinema is still a big deal.

      • Ad 11.2.2

        Tv series Mill. Tv series.

        Remember when tv was going to die?

        • millsy

          That is what I mean. The fact that they are making a TV series and not a movie speaks volumes. Game of Thrones would never have worked as a standard 2 hour film trilogy.

          • I feel love

            You don’t think GOT done it’s dash? I know the books are never ending and ongoing (possibly to never be complete) but like the Walking Dead there doesn’t seem to be an end, it’s like soap opera, there’s no complete story arc, it’s just on and on. Movies are forced to start and finish, they tend to be disciplined and tight, t.v. can meander, which is good for a little while but if things don’t end they get boring. Breaking Bad was excellent because you knew it had a climax, though I hear there’s a sequel/prequel? Some series are too short, some are too long, but there’s something about a good ending.

      • greywarshark 11.2.3

        ‘Online steaming services’? Not everybody watches pron in any of its shades of grey.

    • halfcrown 11.3

      I would sooner see a Bugs Bunny cartoon

    • KJT 11.4

      Not many movies that I wait impatiently for the finish. LOTR was one of them!

      Cost more than ten good local productions also.

      • I feel love 11.4.1

        Hopefully Jackson isn’t part of the t.v. series, Mortal Engines totally bombed, maybe he should try a new, original (heck, a local story) idea? & not rehash someone else’s book. He’s a technical genius but a terrible story teller. (I actually thought the Ring and Hobbit movies would be better t.v., they are tediously long).

      • veutoviper 11.4.2

        I did not even make it to the end of the first of the trilogy – had to leave the movie theatre due to the volume of the sound and ended up with a three day migraine as a result. Still shudder with the memory. Tried to watch the sequels on video and again gave up.

        • KJT

          To be fair, I found the Hobbit, books, tedious as well.

          Jackson is not a storyteller. I think he should have stuck to splatter movies, where he was a Master.

          • In Vino

            If you are going to be fair, KJT, The Hobbit (book) was a single, fairly short children’s book. Eminently approachable for all.
            The Lord of the Rings (book) was the long trilogy. I was mildly annoyed by the way Jackson fooled with the books in the first trilogy of films (Lord of the Rings) but could tolerate it. To me, The Hobbit (films – a bloody long overblown trilogy from a single child’s book) is a load of bollocks, which really does throw Jackson’s failings into sharp relief.

            • KJT

              Correct. Should have said LOTR.

            • Robert Guyton

              Dammit! Missed this interplay – as mentioned before, I have (now) 20 copies of The hobbit and plan to use them in a tutorial manner with youngish students. While the story isn’t entirely perfect for the modern child, it provides great opportunities for all sorts of learnings and discussions – for which I thank JR Tolkien very much. I found Jackson’s movies impossible to enjoy, because of the focus on battle and gore. Tolkien too, did war heavily, understandably. I’m someone who finds the Tom Bombadil material intriguing, and btw, who is Radagast the Brown 🙂

              • Ragadast the brown was one of the Istari or wizards ( Gandalf and Saruman were also in the order) He doesn’t come into the story much except in fellowship where he unwittingly relayed Saruman’s message to gandalf leading to Gandalf’s imprisonment in his tower. Ragadast lived somewhere out west and loved birds and animals.

        • Kay

          @vv- I’d been hearing horror stories about the sound volume in the theatres from day one, so even had I the slightest interest in fantasy movies and hadn’t been so put off by the media reporting Peter Jackson on the front page every time he sneezed and trying their utmost to get him a sainthood, they lost themselves many patrons due to the volume button.
          Proud to say I still haven’t seen any of the movies via any platform and no intention to 🙂

  11. Exkiwiforces 12

    Following on from comment last night on the reason why old “Mad Dog” pop smoke over the Trump administration.

    Open Mike 21/12/2018

    Another one has pop smoke over Syria as well.


  12. bwaghorn 13

    Is that tax working group looking at taxing robots a tax equivalent to the income tax that every worker would have paid that the robot puts out of work . ??

  13. joe90 15

    Hows sad. Jules is going to have to clean up after himself.

    An Ecuadorian court has dismissed the appeal of WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange’s defense, which requested lifting the home rules imposed on the whistleblower in the Ecuadorian embassy in London, the South American country’s Foreign Ministry said.

    “A court in the Pichincha province today [December 21] confirmed the legal force of the special protocol published by the Ecuadorian Foreign Ministry in October in order to regulate [Assange’s] living in Ecuador’s embassy in London,” the Foreign Ministry said in a statement.

    The court decision was related to the fact that the home rules “do not violate any constitutional rights” which was claimed by Assange’s lawyers, the statement pointed out.


    • James 15.1

      If he dosnt like it – he could always leave.

    • Drowsy M. Kram 15.2

      Assange’s whistleblowing and award-winning journalism proved a thorn in the side of many; he will pay the price for the rest of his life, which is only to be expected.

      As ‘John Doe’ (“My life is in danger.“) showed, some whistleblowers must protect themselves.

      Doe said growing global income inequality and corruption allegedly enabled by Mossack Fonseca motivated his actions. Doe also said the papers demonstrated the injustices perpetrated by the industry that creates offshore companies and blamed governments for allowing offshore havens to proliferate, saying he leaked the documents “simply because I understood enough about their contents to realise the scale of the injustices they described.


    • francesca 15.3

      I’m in agreement with the UN Working group on
      Arbitrary Detention as far as Assange goes.
      There’s a ghoulish delight some people have in seeing him go down


      • SPC 15.3.1

        The UK deserves Brexit, and the USA deserves Trump for what it has done to Assange (Snowden deserves the medal of freedom)

        Empires that persecute whistleblowers deserve to fall. They prove themselves worthy of nothing less.

      • McFlock 15.3.2

        Never really understood ther angle on that. Cops aren’t supposed to act like it’s a game of Bull Rush and stop chasing a fugitive just because he made it to “Safe”.

        They’re supposed to sit outside until he comes out to face justice.

  14. Dennis Frank 16

    Trump was looking good as a result of the US economy doing well. No longer. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-46637680

    “”The Stock Market just reached an All-Time High during my Administration for the 102nd Time, a presidential record, by far, for less than two years,” he tweeted in early October.. Since Mr Trump wrote that tweet, the Dow Jones Industrial Average has fallen more than 4,300 points – a 16% decline.”

    “Due to a combination of rising interest rates, the president’s trade wars, the impending government shutdown and indications of slower economic growth, the now long-in-the-tooth bull market may be coming to an end. December has seen the biggest market decline since the Great Depression and the largest drop in any month since 2009.”

  15. Morrissey 17

    Worth a listen

  16. James 18

    Here is a recommendation for al if you have time over the Xmas period – podcast called serial.

    I’m part way thru season one and absolutely hooked.

    True story told amazing well.

    It’s not politics – and it would be interesting to hear different views on “who did it” – I have no idea. And it’s possible a terrible miscarriage may have happened.

    Anyway – available everywhere that streams podcast and it’s freeeeeee.

    • aj 18.1

      When you finish that, watch American Vandal on Netflix, a very clever and funny parody of true crime documentaries such as Making a Murderer and Serial.

  17. Morrissey 19

    No one in Britain with an IQ of 3 figures takes Michael Gove seriously.
    Here is one of the reasons for that…..

    • DJ Ward 19.1

      Nobody with an IQ of 3 figures takes funny pictures of a person as information to judge a person as credible. The Farage picture is a pretty good match. Sometimes if a persons IQ is larger than nearly everybody else all that’s left is pointless personal attacks as you can’t debate them and win.

      • Morrissey 19.1.1

        Nobody with an IQ of 3 figures takes funny pictures of a person as information to judge a person as credible.

        Gove’s almost complete lack of credibility and respect has nothing to do with his looks.

        The Farage picture is a pretty good match.

        True. I think you’d agree with this writer, i.e., moi, that the Gove/Pob match is a bit of a stretch.

        Sometimes if a persons IQ is larger than nearly everybody else all that’s left is pointless personal attacks as you can’t debate them [sic] and win.

        Michael Gove’s IQ is larger than nearly everybody else’s, is it? You’re possibly the first person in the world with an I.Q. of more than 100 to note that. Please enlighten the rest of us, who’ve been under the impression that Gove was nothing more than an embarrassment to himself and indeed to the Conservative Party.

  18. Ad 20

    I just played soccer on Brighton Beach Dunedin with 7 15 year olds.

    Ate sand, tackled dog, saved some goals.

    Dunedin is my best city in New Zealand.

  19. Ad 21

    Corbyn finally shows his colours and backs full Brexit even if the government falls.

    No second vote, no soft Brexit, no Scandi Brexit.

    His party is going to cream him.

    • Exkiwiforces 21.1

      Well I’m not surprised that “young” Corbyn has finally come out supporting a full Brexit, as he has form for being a Anti EU over the years. Any true Labour MP would know the true impact of EU membership over the years has had on the British working class and the under Class, which has force down wages. enter level jobs have dried up as they have taken by EU nations and number of minor and large companies have moved over the EU countries over the years before Brexit.

      The middle class Toffs that infect the British Labour Party support remaining in the EU as it’s in their own self importance along with middle/ upper class Toffs of Lib Dems and some of the Tories as it forces the working/ under class in their place and know their place in society.

  20. Pat 22

    where will you and yours be in 2022?

    “Kevin Anderson of the Tyndall Centre for Climate Change Research, has consistently criticised IPCC reports for magical thinking, for assuming that at some point in the near future technology will be both invented and rolled out on a mass scale that will suck carbon dioxide from the atmosphere (so-called negative emission technologies). At the moment, there are none that are close to being ready to be mass produced. Take these out of the most recent IPCC report and instead of 12 years to stop dangerous climate change we have just three.”


  21. sumsuch 23

    Parliament is as full of procedure as this place I suppose. There seems to be more substance in other blogs. 12 years, which we all agree about, yet this terrible surround sight media trivia continues.

  22. Eco Maori 24

    Some Eco Maori Music for the minute

  23. Eco Maori 25

    Eco Maori totally agrees with JK Rowlings views on the Cameleon Corbyn his true colours and loyaltys lie with the weathy he is in the wrong party.
    JK Rowling, a longtime critic of Jeremy Corbyn, has mocked the Labour leader’s position on Brexit in sixteen biblical-style tweets.
    In a series of tweets entitled “The visitation of the Corbynites: a festive thread”, the Harry Potter author claimed the possibility of “Saint Jeremy” bringing a jobs-first Brexit was “bollocks” and described Corbyn as “in third place after Pontus May”.
    JK Rowling and the Angry Corbynites – truly a Twitter row for our times
    Ellie Mae O’Hagan

    Read more

    Rowling wrote: “And she did answer, ‘How shall the poor fare under Brexit, which thy saint hath always in his secret heart desired, yet he hath not admitted what was in his heart, lest fewer attend his next sermon on the Glastonbury B stage.’
    “And they did answer, ‘Saint Jeremy will achieve a miracle, and he shall bring forth a jobs-first Brexit and all the land shall rejoice.’ And she did answer, ‘Bollocks.’”
    Ka kite ano


  24. Eco Maori 26

    The sandflys think there intimadation is working but not against Eco Maori Im just looking after my mokopunas and having a little break well desreved I say ka kite ano

  25. Eco Maori 27

    Some Eco Maori Music for the minute

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