Open mike 24/01/2024

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, January 24th, 2024 - 208 comments
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208 comments on “Open mike 24/01/2024 ”

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  1. Jenny 1
    24 January 2024 at 7:30 am

    One News last night.

    @@2:35 minutes
    Unidentified reporter: "Should New Zealand perhaps be putting more pressure on the United States to support a ceasefire in Gaza rather than taking the action, of supporting military action?"

    Winston Peters: "Can I say, that is not the view of the United Nations…."

    https://www.tvnz.co.nz/shows/one-news-at-6pm/episodes/s2024-e23

    That may be the view of Winston Peters, and the view of the US Biden administration. But it is not the view of the United Nations, including its General Secretary António Guterres.

    United Nations General Assembly vote by a large majority for a ceasefire.

    The 193-member United Nations General Assembly (UNGA) has voted overwhelmingly in favour of a resolution calling for a humanitarian ceasefire in war-torn Gaza. Tuesday's resolution passed with 153 countries voting in favour, 23 abstaining and 10 countries voting against, including Israel and the United States.

    https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/12/12/un-general-assembly-votes-overwhelmingly-in-favour-of-gaza-ceasefire#

    The UN supports a ceasefire in Gaza. Only the United States veto has prevented the UN from ordering a ceasefire in Gaza.

    In the highest decision making body of the UN, the US was isolated as the sole country to vote against a ceasefire in the Security Council. Even the UK, America's closes ally, could not bring themselves to vote against a ceasefire. The UK abstained on the Security Council vote for a ceasefire, the only Security Council member to do so. All the other members of the Security Council voted for a ceasefire in Gaza.
    The two highest bodies of the UN, the General Assembly and the Security Council, by a big majority both, "support a ceasefire in Gaza", only the minority of one country opposed a ceasefire in Gaza in the Security Council. And only a small minority of countries opposed a ceasefire in the UN General Assembly. The truth is, one country has overruled the United Nation's support for a ceasefire in Gaza

    https://news.un.org/en/story/2023/12/1144562

    A good follow up question for Winston Peters would be; Do you Mr Peters as the Minister of Foreign Affairs and Trade, support a ceasefire in Gaza as a way of stopping the escalation of violence in the Middle East, in particular, Houthi attacks on shipping in the Red Sea?

  2. dv 2
    24 January 2024 at 9:06 am

    Following a request from the United States, New Zealand is sending six personnel to the region to support future

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/politics/350156111/nz-deployment-red-sea-has-shades-iraq-labour-says

    SIX – that'll make a difference!!! HAH

    • Ad 2.1
      24 January 2024 at 9:10 am

      New Zealand already has 28 peacekeeping on the Israel-Egypt border, and we've had regular deployments into the UN peacekeeping zone in Golan Heights.

      This is not a moment for New Zealand to retreat in to sleepy Hobbit world.

      • adam 2.1.1
        24 January 2024 at 9:37 am

        One: This is not UN sanctioned so your comparison is horseshit.

        Two: We will engaged in espionage against another nation with no mandate from the UN.

        Three: This is an act of war, without a declaration of war.

        At least their are some brains in the labour/greens party who know this

        https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/labour-greens-warn-of-escalating-risks-as-government-deploys-military-to-red-sea/IJAVLADUZZA6RAHY7JECJE3FSM/

        • Ad 2.1.1.1
          24 January 2024 at 10:56 am

          We're never going to need or seek a UN mandate for spying. Five Eyes has no UN mandate.

          Nor should we wait around for a UN resolution to defend shipping. We should just do it. It has nothing to do with the invasion of Iraq.

          Nearly all of the shipping companies that support our economy have already stopped going through the Red Sea for fear of being targeted: MSC, Hapag-Lloyd, CMA, CGM, and Maersk. We are just getting inflation under control now and we don't need another spike due to increased freight costs.

          • Bearded Git 2.1.1.1.1
            24 January 2024 at 11:19 am

            A ceasefire in Gaza (and the occupied West Bank for that matter) and the ships would be able to go through again. It is that simple.

            All Standard contributors should be supporting a total ceasefire and a two state solution rather than getting hung-up on matters that will be resolved anyway if a ceasefire came into operation, such as the hostages, Red Sea shipping etc etc

            Best of all a ceasefire would mean bye bye Bibi.smiley

            • Ad 2.1.1.1.1.1
              24 January 2024 at 11:27 am

              Wouldn't it be great to have the power to cast a spell over all Standard commenters and make them all think and write just the way you want?

              We need actual independent thinking that involves walking and chewing gum at the same time.

              The walking part involves the defence of a key shipping lane against a non-state actor, and until there's attacks on the Malacca Strait this is about as basic a national interest as we can get.

              The chewing part is a basic recognition that Israel and Hamas will stop when they agree to which is no time soon, even if either of them said they wanted to.

              • Bearded Git …
                24 January 2024 at 2:58 pm

                Maybe you Ad (and many others on TS, sorry I should not have said “all” above) should watch this-it really is a must watch. It makes the point I was trying to make but much better.

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z68FNAq6xQk&ab_channel=nrockel

                I love it when she calls “the West” (Biden and Sunak) “cowboys”.

              • Ghostwhowalks …
                24 January 2024 at 3:42 pm

                Maybe the US attacks on Yemen in the last 10 years, over 100 in 2017 alone, have something to do with it

                Then theres the Saudi led ( US and British supported) attacks on Yemen after the Zaydi sect led rebels toppled the previous government – who fled to Riyadh and now operate as a Saudi puppet administration.

                1) A neighbour invading a country is bad when Russia does it but has Nato support when Saudis/Emiratis do it.

                2) Self defence is permitted when Israel does it but not when Zaydi/Houthi forces do so after over 10 years of attacks on their country.

                • SPC …
                  24 January 2024 at 4:05 pm

                  Your recognition of Yemen as the country of the Houthi is all your own – not that of the Arab league or the UN.

                  Russia ensured the survival of the Assad regime – something the Arab League now accepts as a reality.

                  The Arab League does not recognise the Houthi as the government of anything, nor does the UN.

                  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cabinet_of_Yemen

                  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presidential_Leadership_Council

                  Russia backs one government in Libya and Turkey another. Maybe it is a regional thing – though Russia now has a taste for regional hegemony disrupter role in Europe, if Medvedev's recent comments mean anything.

                  In August 2023, he stated that "Russia must destroy and fully dismantle the Ukrainian state that is a terrorist in its essence… Should it take years or even decades, then so be it.

                  On 17 January 2024 Medvedev said on his Telegram app channel that "The existence of Ukraine is mortally dangerous for Ukrainians. And I don’t mean only the current state … I'm talking about any, absolutely any Ukraine." He described Ukraine as "historical Russian territories.. Neither Ukraine’s association with the EU, nor even the entry of this artificial country into NATO will prevent [a new conflict]

                  https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=Medvedev

            • SPC 2.1.1.1.1.2
              24 January 2024 at 1:10 pm

              If all Standard contributors agreed and every nation in the world said stop the war on Ukraine, what would Putin do?

              If all Standard contributors and the world, including USA, called on the Israeli government to stop its military action in Gaza what would Netanyahu do?

              • francesca …
                24 January 2024 at 1:45 pm

                Doesn't matter what Netenyahu would do

                He'd be utterly powerless without the US providing billions of dollars of military aid

                Stop the weapons,stop the cash flow and he's done

                • James Simpson …
                  24 January 2024 at 1:51 pm

                  Stop the weapons,stop the cash flow and he's done

                  And so is Israel

                • SPC …
                  24 January 2024 at 2:42 pm

                  Israel is not dependent on the $3B now near $4B of annual aid (it is little more than that given to Egypt and Jordan each year for being part of the peace process).

                  The Israeli economy is much larger now than it was when that level of aid was set. This is indicated by the end of economic aid to Israel some time ago.

                  It is influenced by the USA setting terms for military supply, back in 1973 Israel knew an attack was coming but the Americans told them they could not attack first – they would only get military supply (munitions/ammunition), if they did not attack first.

                  In this case Hamas attacked first.

                  Since the attack by Hamas Israel has received military aid (missile and air defense systems – Iron Dome).

                  This chart shows that the significant military aid only comes in war time.

                  https://www.axios.com/2023/11/04/us-israel-aid-military-funding-chart

                  The possible actions open to Biden are

                  *to ask Congress to allow POTUS to make the economic aid to Israel contingent on the Israeli government supporting a two state peace process and outcome – on the basis that Netanyahu has brought this into doubt. Give POTUS leverage.

                  **to allow POTUS to be able to restrict supply of offensive weaponry to Israel to influence the continuance of war if USA wanted a cease-fire.

                  PS Restricting supply of air defence capability would leave Israeli civilians open to missile attacks and leave the nation hostage to external attack threats.

                  • SPC …
                    24 January 2024 at 7:01 pm

                    *to ask Congress to allow POTUS to make the annual economic military aid to Israel contingent on the Israeli government supporting a two state peace process and outcome – on the basis that Netanyahu has brought this into doubt. Give POTUS leverage.

          • adam 2.1.1.1.2
            24 January 2024 at 11:33 am

            We are just getting inflation under control now and we don't need another spike due to increased freight costs.

            Inflation is at 5% and we going to have that for the next decade, so if that your excuse to engage in a war – sheesh no words, just utter horror at your ability to justify war.

            And about 5 eyes, made the world a safer place has it – worst joke, never.

            How about we actually stand up to the problem in the region of the middle east and help sort this out, rather than this back door jingoistic bullshit.

            Free trade must be protected mantra is just shit – you do a good job of showing what is wrong with the left in many eyes – the apologism of globalisation and what is in essence a watered down and effectively useless version of a once great program of social democracy.

            No one is going to win any elections pushing that horseshit going forward.

            • Ad 2.1.1.1.2.1
              24 January 2024 at 11:50 am

              New Zealand is one of the most sea-trade reliant countries in the world. Both exports and imports. No one should be apologising for exporting and making the money we need to stay in biscuits, and we are so trade reliant now that we import most other things.

              We are indeed "standing up" or whatever in the Middle East and have done so for quite a few decades in our own small way.

              If we really think that we don't need to support the defence of the Red Sea, we should just imagine a world in which the US just stops, brings all its ships back, the Houthis win the Bab al-Mandab Strait, and we take the price increases to oil coming in and agricultural commodities going out. Ain't no one else going to help us or Maersk.

              Inflation was 4.7% for the last quarter, falling. The potential delays and near-term supply shortages are being as closely watched by markets as they were during COVID which was the real global trade crunch that affected us so badly.

              • Subliminal …
                24 January 2024 at 12:48 pm

                Your catstrophe fantasy is very much the stuff of colonialism. The Houthi have clearly said they will allow passage to all those that agree to not using the Red Sea to supply Israel and will allow passage to Israel when it stops its genocide of Palestinians and blockade of Gaza. All of which seem like worthwhile goals.

                It is not possible to say they are lying unless the conditions are met. And if they are lying? The bloodbath in Gaza will have ceased. Some results are worth a wee bit of inflation don't you think?

                • SPC …
                  24 January 2024 at 12:57 pm

                  The Houthi have clearly said they will allow passage to all those that agree to not using the Red Sea to supply Israel

                  Have they, can you provide a link?

                  Israel would get their cargo direct from Europe in that case …

                  If there had been no attacks on shipping simply using the Red Sea to transport cargo between Europe and Asia (with no link to Israeli stop offs or Israeli ship ownership) there would have been no UNSC Resolution.

                  • Subliminal …
                    24 January 2024 at 2:48 pm

                    Try this link. There are many such links.

                    https://www.palestinechronicle.com/largest-attack-to-date-what-is-happening-in-the-red-sea/

                    Perhaps you could supply a link to a targeted ship that had no links to Israel nor was bound for Israel before the US intervention that has resulted in the first loss of lives in the whole saga. Or not aligned in any way to the Western nations coalescing around the US since its intervention.

                    I would also note that it was perfectly ok for the UK navy to enable a Saudi blockade of Yemen that created the worst humaitarian disaster in the world prior to Gaza. They closed the Red Sea to all maritime traffic to and from the Yemeni coast!! But now? Oh rules based system of international order!

                    https://www.declassifieduk.org/paralysing-a-nation-evidence-emerges-of-royal-navys-complicity-in-saudi-led-sea-blockade-of-yemen/

                    • SPC …
                      24 January 2024 at 3:03 pm

                      A development because earlier attacks was resulting in calls for protection of shipping.

                      In a post on Twitter, Al-Houthi said that ships which announce “We have no relationship with Israel” will be granted safe passage by the rebel group through the Red Sea, Arabian Sea and Bab al-Mandab strait.

                      The post legitimises a trend seen in the Red Sea region of vessels using their AIS destination to broadcast messages aimed at deterring Houthi attacks.

                      The post called the measure an easy and inexpensive means of avoiding trouble.

                      “This step does not require militarizing the Red Sea and will not harm international navigation,” said Al-Houthi.

                      The impact of the declaration on risk perception in the region is likely to be mixed and highly political.

                      In the over 20 attacks by the rebel group on merchant ships since November 19, many of the vessels involved have no clear ties to Israeli interests or a destination in Israel, and yet have been variously targeted by missiles, drones, and small boats.

                      https://www.seatrade-maritime.com/containers/houthi-leader-makes-demands-red-sea-ships

                      Perhaps you could supply a link to a targeted ship that had no links to Israel nor was bound for Israel

                      See above

                      that has resulted in the first loss of lives in the whole saga.

                      Adding a rider are we.

                      Or not aligned in any way to the Western nations coalescing around the US since its intervention.

                      If western nations shipping are fair game, so are those that attack them.

                      The United Nations Security Council (UNSC) adopted a resolution Wednesday demanding that Yemen's Iran-backed Houthis cease all attacks on ships flowing through the Red Sea.

                      S/RES/2722 (2024)
                      24-004372/2
                      2. Demands that the Houthis immediately cease all such attacks, which impede global commerce and undermine navigational rights and freedoms as well as regional peace and security, and further demands that the Houthis immediately release the Galaxy Leader and its crew;
                      3. Affirms the exercise of navigational rights and freedoms by merchant and commercial vessels, in accordance with international law, must be respected, and takes note of the right of Member States, in accordance with international law, to defend their vessels from attacks, including those that undermine navigational rights and freedoms;
                      4. Commends the efforts by Member States within the framework of the International Maritime Organization, to enhance the safety and secure transit of merchant and commercial vessels of all States through the Red Sea

                      https://documents-dds-ny.un.org/doc/UNDOC/GEN/N24/009/28/PDF/N2400928.pdf?OpenElement

                    • Subliminal []
                      24 January 2024 at 6:59 pm

                      Oh great. Many ships but no names.

                      The Houthi action is a true r2p in support of Gaza within their limited means. It is hugely popular with the citizens of that country and is giving the Houthi extended influence over their whole country. Bombing them into oblivion and attempts at starvation have not defeated them. They have gone through exactly what Gaza is going through. They are unlikely to be cowed. Perhaps putting a stop to the rearming of Israel by the US would be simpler, before any further escalation in the Red Sea

                      Electronic Intifada on youtube

                    • SPC …
                      24 January 2024 at 7:18 pm

                      Maersk Hangzhao – ballistic missile attacks and 4 jet boats trying to board.

                      https://www.vesselfinder.com/?imo=9784300

                      https://www.cbsnews.com/news/missile-from-houthi-controlled-yemen-strikes-merchant-vessel-red-sea-uss-gravely-shoots-down-anti-ship-missiles/

                      It’s not just the Americans supplying arms – Germany is looking at their stock of tank shells (as per Iran and NKorea supplying Russia).

                • Ad …
                  24 January 2024 at 1:25 pm

                  Israel only gets about 5% of its trade through the Red Sea. It’s not a useful lever upon Israel at all.

                  The Red Sea is far more important to the rest of the trading world including ourselves, and we don't need to accept terrorists leveraging themselves in.

        • bwaghorn 2.1.1.2
          24 January 2024 at 12:32 pm

          Only 6 , should be 600 , you if the houthis wamy war go attack soldiers, don't go terrorizing merchant sailors out their earning a living, ?

        • SPC 2.1.1.3
          24 January 2024 at 12:46 pm

          There is a UN mandate.

          S/RES/2722 (2024)
          24-004372/2
          2. Demands that the Houthis immediately cease all such attacks, which impede global commerce and undermine navigational rights and freedoms as well as regional peace and security, and further demands that the Houthis immediately release the Galaxy Leader and its crew;
          3. Affirms the exercise of navigational rights and freedoms by merchant and commercial vessels, in accordance with international law, must be respected, and takes note of the right of Member States, in accordance with international law, to defend their vessels from attacks, including those that undermine navigational rights and freedoms;
          4. Commends the efforts by Member States within the framework of the International Maritime Organization, to enhance the safety and secure transit of merchant and commercial vessels of all States through the Red Sea

          https://documents-dds-ny.un.org/doc/UNDOC/GEN/N24/009/28/PDF/N2400928.pdf?OpenElement

          An act of war against whom? The Houthi are an armed gang in control of part of Yemen. To declare war one has to recognise the other party as having the status of a nation state.

          Al Qaeada in Iraq or Syria, Islamic State, Hezbollah, Shia militias in Iraq, Hamas and the Houthi are not nation state actors or governments of a (recognised) nation state.

    • Graeme 2.2
      24 January 2024 at 9:27 am

      This defence commitment is not much more than a continuation of our existing / past contribution to policing in the Red Sea / Persian Gulf. We've had personnel involved going back to Gulf War and at times a frigate participating.

      In 2023 Andrew Little released these documents which outline the circumstances of the past Government sending six personnel to the Gulf.

      https://www.defence.govt.nz/assets/publication/file/MARSEC.pdf

      Proactively Released Defence Documents

      HON ANDREW LITTLE, MINISTER OF DEFENCE New Zealand’s Maritime Security Commitments in the Middle East

      August 2023

      This publication provides documents on Cabinet’s December 2021 decision extend the mandate for New Zealand’s support to maritime security in the Middle East to 30 June 2024.

      The pack comprises:

      – the Cabinet minute of decision New Zealand's Maritime Security Commitments in the Middle East [ERS-21-MIN-0052] and

      – the Cabinet paper New Zealand's Maritime Security Commitments in the Middle East [ERS-21-SUB-0052].

      • Anne 2.2.1
        24 January 2024 at 9:40 am

        Judith Collins refused to say from which arm of the Defence Force these six 'personnel' are coming. The RNZAF are very much involved in maritime security exercises and of course the Navy. My money is on RNZAF and their intelligence unit.

        Edit:
        I’m starting to wonder whether this announcement from Luxon and Collins is a facade “look at us folks aren’t we decisive and clever” when its nothing new and the ground work was already in place.

        • James Simpson 2.2.1.1
          24 January 2024 at 10:44 am

          Of course its nothing new. A Hipkins lead government would have done the same thing.

          • Anne 2.2.1.1.1
            24 January 2024 at 10:55 am

            I think they would have waited for the UN to sanction such an undertaking. I don't know whether it [the sanction] will be forthcoming. I leave that debate to those far better informed than I am.

            • SPC 2.2.1.1.1.1
              24 January 2024 at 12:39 pm

              Was Parker not just forgetting our position as per involvement to June 2024 on maritime security in the ME. But also what a UNSC Resolution said.

              The United Nations Security Council (UNSC) adopted a resolution Wednesday demanding that Yemen's Iran-backed Houthis cease all attacks on ships flowing through the Red Sea.

              S/RES/2722 (2024)
              24-004372/2
              2. Demands that the Houthis immediately cease all such attacks, which impede global commerce and undermine navigational rights and freedoms as well as regional peace and security, and further demands that the Houthis immediately release the Galaxy Leader and its crew;
              3. Affirms the exercise of navigational rights and freedoms by merchant and commercial vessels, in accordance with international law, must be respected, and takes note of the right of Member States, in accordance with international law, to defend their vessels from attacks, including those that undermine navigational rights and freedoms;
              4. Commends the efforts by Member States within the framework of the International Maritime Organization, to enhance the safety and secure transit of merchant and commercial vessels of all States through the Red Sea

              https://documents-dds-ny.un.org/doc/UNDOC/GEN/N24/009/28/PDF/N2400928.pdf?OpenElement

        • SPC 2.2.1.2
          24 January 2024 at 12:52 pm

          The RNZAF are very much involved in maritime security exercises and of course the Navy. My money is on RNZAF and their intelligence unit.

          With our new planes (continuing our AWACS capabilities) some have been trained up, and here an active operation, rather than an exercise.

          Navy would be interested in the air defence of ships side of it.

          Army would have an interest in identifying (battlefield) targets.

          • Anne 2.2.1.2.1
            25 January 2024 at 10:29 am

            My choice of the word 'exercise' was misleading. The RNZAF carry out regular patrols in the southern oceans. They are well versed in search and identification work. They also team up with other countries from time to time and carry out advanced exercises in this type of work. The navy of course is also involved in such exercises. I'm talking from long past experience as a non-military briefing officer.

            Given the nature of the Red Sea deployment, RNZAF personnel together with the Navy would seem the most likely arms of the DF to be involved in this mission.

            Btw, what does AWAC stand for? Tried to google, but likely military sources listed met with 'failed' links. In other words they had been blocked. Interesting.

            Edit: the point is, there is no need for Collins’ attempt at secrecy. It has been par for the course for decades, so I am assuming she is attempting to make it sound like something new and dramatic.

  3. Robert Guyton 3
    24 January 2024 at 9:12 am

    Mitre 10 does the right thing …

    "Rivers are normally named after ancestors, they have spiritual connections to both the physical environment and the people … many Māori believe that their rivers have a mauri, or a life essence inside them," he said.

    "Calling something like a toilet roll holder by a sacred name, such as kaiiwi, is disgusting and offensive."

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/culture/350156115/mitre10-changes-culturally-insensitive-product-names

    • weka 3.1
      24 January 2024 at 10:28 am

      Lokos like Legacy were doing some brownwashing. Imagine the marketing consultant meeting were that was decided.

      • Robert Guyton 3.1.1
        24 January 2024 at 10:47 am

        Brownwashing toilet fixtures 🙂

      • bwaghorn 3.1.2
        24 January 2024 at 12:37 pm

        Or maybe they thought let's get some Maori language out their, forgetting that Maori are very precious about all things they own.

        • James Simpson 3.1.2.1
          24 January 2024 at 2:00 pm

          It can be very difficult to know when you are committing cultural appropriation. It is very easy to offend, even when you think you are doing the correct thing.

          In my opinion it is best to steer clear unless your use of that language for marketing purposes has been approved by someone, with the right to approve that use.

          • bwaghorn 3.1.2.1.1
            24 January 2024 at 2:57 pm

            I've used karaka roof paint on houses, is that OK, what if I have a bit over and clad the long drop at the camp site, seriously people need to get over themselves, this is why seymour is on the rise and trump will win the next election,

            • James Simpson 3.1.2.1.1.1
              24 January 2024 at 2:59 pm

              You are using a product with a Maori name. You didn't give it that name.

            • Robert Guyton 3.1.2.1.1.2
              24 January 2024 at 7:53 pm

              "karaka" is a Māori colour name, not the personal name of a sacred mountain/ancestor.

              Big diff.

        • weka 3.1.2.2
          24 January 2024 at 6:49 pm

          Or maybe they thought let's get some Maori language out their, forgetting that Maori are very precious about all things they own.

          dunno about that. I think Māori generally are quite generous with te reo. However, putting kupu Māori on toilet things is akin to sitting your bum on the table you and others eat at. Some people think it's fine to do that, but it's not something a manufacturer should promote.

          So I agree with you that sometimes companies just want to get some of te reo out there, but it should be done with a modicum of awareness and respect.

    • Robert Guyton 4.1
      24 January 2024 at 9:59 am

      Thanks, ianmac – Steve Braunias is a smart thinker and the book will be valuable for understanding Golriz' story.

      "She entered Parliament in 2017. The dislike was immediate. Ghahraman first became a public figure when she featured on the famous North & South cover in April 2017, when art director Jenny Nicholls and photographer Toaki Okano staged a very Vanity Fair / Annie Leibovitz portrait of seven Green MPs. It remains the only photo of Chlöe Swarbrick in a dress, lol. Ghahraman modelled a long, very glamorous, very sparkly green dress. (At least some readers will instantly think: “Did she steal it?”). Social media responded with rage that an MP should dare to wear an evening dress, dare to be a beautiful woman, dare to be upfront and in your face. It set the tone for the next six years of rage."

    • Anne 4.2
      24 January 2024 at 10:13 am

      Another quote:

      I thought the most revealing passage in Know Your Place was a dialogue she had with former defence minister Ron Mark.

      He: “You know, Golriz, I think about what you and I have been through in our lives [Mark was raised in foster care] and I wonder how we’ve come out of it okay, we’ve ended up normal.”

      She: “We’re not normal! You’re obsessed with war planes and I’ve been in therapy for three years.”

      Golriz is not only beautiful, she is highly intelligent. She will heal and no doubt prosper in another field of endeavour.

  5. adam 5
    24 January 2024 at 10:12 am

    So is Luxton a committed liar? Or just a tool to divide the nation?

    The daily blog points out the issues around national, and their support of acts shitfuckery – is now into total divide the nation mode. No safety valve here.

    https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2024/01/24/to-arms-to-arms-luxon-lied-about-treaty-principles-bill/

    • Ad 5.1
      24 January 2024 at 11:00 am

      The curiosity will be whether Luxon gets the shaming treatment that Helen Clark got, or enough rowdiness that he stays away like Key did, or whether he pulls something out of a box like Andrew Little did a term ago.

      Are Maori iwi ready to turn their hui into political muscle, starting at Waitangi?

  6. infused 6
    24 January 2024 at 10:36 am

    This is NSFW Chris Luxon's Favourite Porn Sites

    I do find it a little funny, but imagine if this was done when Jacinda was PM? Maybe something was done like this im unaware of.

    • mac1 6.1
      24 January 2024 at 11:12 am

      The site has this disclaimer saying it is satire and parody, but considering the contact address, it's not political either.

      'ChrisLuxon.org is a satire and parody publication. All content contained within this website and on accompanying social media accounts, however similar to real events, is fictitious. Any real, semi-real or similar names, places, people, products, services and locales are used purely for satirical purposes, and the corresponding story details are purely fictional. The articles contained herein are to be considered satire, parody, surrealism, and humor. Any resemblance to actual persons, businesses, or events is entirely coincidental.

      Images on ChrisLuxon.org site may consist of original photos, stock photography, and creative commons photos. We have done our best to attribute the creators of such photos based on the information available to us. Use of these works does not suggest that the respective authors endorse us or our use of the images. Contact porncorexxx@gmail.com for queries"

      I'm also unsure of "creative commons photos" as mentioned in the disclaimer. Are these otherwise known as fakes and AI altered mischief?

      Considering the spelling of ‘humor” instead of ‘humour’ the site is probably not even of NZ origin.

    • Drowsy M. Kram 6.2
      24 January 2024 at 11:38 am

      Brilliant infused – thanks for the (slap)heads-up laugh

      Wonder if Shane Jones (Minister for ‘Resources’) has a similar website. Former National party MP Andrew Falloon probably had one.

      https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/21-07-2020/the-andrew-falloon-saga-how-it-unfolded

      • alwyn 6.2.1
        24 January 2024 at 6:55 pm

        Would you have been so amused, and enthusiastic if the website had been about Jacinda Ardern, or Golriz Ghahraman perhaps?

        • Drowsy M. Kram 6.2.1.1
          24 January 2024 at 11:56 pm

          I'd have been none the wiser about this joke at our PM expense, had it not been for infused's comment. Like them, I found some content on that satirical site (which they linked to) amusing – like something out of a modern version of A Week of It.

          Would you have been so amused, and enthusiastic if the website had been about Jacinda Ardern, or Golriz Ghahraman perhaps?

          Perhaps, if the parody had been light-hearted. Our politicians (and their supporters) can be so thin-skinned sometimes – "Can't you tell when I'm joking?"

          How Kiwis Went From Decent To Disgusting.
          Sadly much of the vitriol was of course much worse than that nonsense. There were horrific things said, with threats, and the most revolting misogyny you’ve ever seen. One of our greatest ever leaders, a person who when thrust into incredibly challenging, unforeseen, circumstances reacted calmly, and kindly, showing great humanity, was subjected to what I think must be the most vicious attacks ever directed at a single person in this country.

          And the attacks weren’t simply out of frustration with lockdowns, or MIQ, or anything like that. They were personally targeting Jacinda as a woman, and her family, and I have never felt so ashamed of my country in all my life.
          …
          But we didn’t see the outright viciousness and nastiness with Chippy as Labour leader, as we had with Jacinda, and you don’t have to be a rocket scientist to work out why.

          Poem shared by National candidate ‘disgusting’, disrespectful to Ardern, MPs say [20 April 2023]

          • alwyn 6.2.1.1.1
            25 January 2024 at 11:23 am

            I'll bet you were an admirer of the wonderful songs by people like Tom Scott.

            I mean how could anyone not admire the wonderful lyrics like

            "That's why I'm going to kill the Prime Minister. I'm going to kill the Prime Minister, because we are down and suffering and the motherfucker ain't doing nothing. Going to kill the Prime Minister.

            One of these days I'm going to fuck your daughter. This poor boy going to make his seed, going to wake up in your girl – well hello Miss Key."

            That is much better than soppy songs like We Shall Overcome isn't it?

            John Key and his daughter should be proud to be the subject of such wonderful lyrics is probably your reaction. After all if he didn't get it it is because John Key was just thin skinned.

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gh5Slaqe7c8

            • Drowsy M. Kram 6.2.1.1.1.1
              25 January 2024 at 1:03 pm

              I'll bet you were an admirer of the wonderful songs by people like Tom Scott.

              I admire Tom Scott, but not for his songs. Your assertion that I'm an admirer of the "wonderful lyrics" you quoted, and you guess at my reaction, suggest a very thin skin indeed. Just my opinion.

              And thanks for making me aware of this other Tom Scott – appreciate it.

              Now that I have your attention, may I remind you that

              130,000 ELIGIBLE PEOPLE UNDER 25 HAVE NOT YET ENROLLED.

              The current PM does not care about these people. He does not care about the growing gap between the rich and the poor in our country. He does not care about the native people of our country. He does not care about the planet we depend upon to survive, the living organism that we as humans are a functioning part of. He does not care about the right we should all have to an education. He only cares about him and his friends.

              I do not want to literally kill this man. I do not wish to have sexual relations with anybody related to him. Let’s not pretend a silly little song ever changed anything. Last I seen famine was still going pretty strong since ‘Heal The World’ came out. It’s just a song. No different from Thatcher era punk. Anyone ever heard “Maggie you’re a cunt”..?

              What’s important is that we ENROL TO VOTE so that we have a chance to select someone to represent us who understands the concept of empathy.

              I’m fed up with this dude. But if you want to vote for him, that’s your choice. Personally, I’m voting Greens but you can vote for whoever you like. You can choose between a whole bunch of different people who represent a whole bunch of different ideologies. That’s the beauty of the political system in NZ.

              Please respect my right to express my disappointment for the leader of our country.

              • alwyn …
                25 January 2024 at 2:42 pm

                Sorry but I don't find the parody website about Luxon as being in any way funny. Neither do I find a song about murdering Key anything like just a silly little song.

                They are just like the comments that were apparently made about Ardern, or Ghahraman or Bennett or English or almost any other politician.

                If you are going to complain about one you should complain about them all. And no, I haven't seen any of the remarks that have apparently addressed to most of them. I am prepared to accept that they do exist but I can only say that I find remarks like the ones in that song as offensive enough to be out of any level of acceptability and not just passed of as being thin skinned and not really meant.

                • Drowsy M. Kram …
                  25 January 2024 at 10:26 pm

                  Sorry but I don't find the parody website about Luxon as being in any way funny.

                  Please don't apologise alwyn, naturally not everyone will find that website funny. A sense of humour is unique – like fingerprints.

                  18 Satire Examples Spoofing Politics, Film, & Literature [19 Jan 2024]
                  Satire is a literary device that uses exaggeration, irony, humor, allegory, or ridicule to point out the shortcomings or even vices of society.

                  It’s a way to criticize and expose flaws in ideas, individuals, and groups of people. Successful satire is often political in focus, but this isn’t a requirement.

                  If you are going to complain about one you should complain about them all.

                  Who's complaining? That you’re "prepared to accept" there is some truth in Nick Rockel's opinion [“horrific things said, with threats, and the most revolting misogyny you’ve ever seen“] is really quite encouraging.

                  Still, since you’re complaining about the website that infused linked to @6, perhaps you should complain about all the websites that satirise, parody and lampoon Kiwi policitians – I’m sure you know where to draw the line.

  7. Muttonbird 7
    24 January 2024 at 11:19 am

    Those government policies sit alongside the proposed Treaty Principles Bill to diminish Māori opportunities to be Māori in public life. For the Act Party, this is necessary to protect democratic equality.

    In effect, the proposed bill says that to be equal, Māori people can’t contribute to public decisions with reference to their own culture. As anthropologist Anne Salmond has written, this means the state cannot admit there are “reasonable people who reason differently”.

    Equality through sameness is a false equality that liberal democracy is well-equipped to contest. Liberal democracy did not emerge to suppress difference. It is concerned with much more than counting votes to see who wins on election day.

    Professor Dominic O'Sullivan touches on what I've been trying to show about ACT de-culturing, or homogenising, the country.

    Checking and balancing the powers of government requires the contribution of all and not just some citizens. When they do so in their own ways, and according to their own modes of reasoning, citizens contribute to democratic contest – not as a divisive activity, but to protect the common good from the accumulation of power for some people’s use in the domination of others.

    Te Tiriti supports this democratic process.

    ACT's proposed renege and rewrite of the Treaty does exactly that, allow some people to accumulate power for the domination of others. Further deregulated and increasingly unbridled capitalism ensues.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/how-the-treaty-strengthens-democracy-and-provides-a-check-on-unbridled-power-dominic-osullivan/UTUMQGDGCNDR7DV73FIXFKSIOM/

  8. Jilly Bee 8
    24 January 2024 at 11:50 am

    Last evening I stumbled across an article on my Tablet, published in the Herald about a bar owner who had been in Court mainly about a 'celebration' when Jacinda Ardern had handed in her resignation last year which had got our of control. I endeavoured to find said article on the Herald website on my PC to refer to and include the link, but it seemed to have disappeared in the proverbial puff of smoke and I have since been unable to locate it. The bloke involved appeared to be a total misfit (trying not to be too judgemental in my description about him, in line with Weka's directive) and he made an absolute ass of himself at the Court hearing yesterday and finally had to be removed by security. The Judge's decision is yet to be delivered. The rabbit hole must be getting larger by the day for people of that ilk. I was so angered by this individual and do despair. What the hell are we coming to.

  9. gsays 9
    24 January 2024 at 12:27 pm

    We have all been made aware of Act's desire to mess with Te Tiriti by using the Treaty Principles Bill.

    For give my ignorance but is the public able to make submissions around this?

    It gets tiresome reading about Act/Seymour's tosspottery, it would be empowering to do something about it.

    • Gosman 9.1
      24 January 2024 at 12:53 pm

      Of course the public will be able to make submissions on this. This is why it was part of the coalition agreement between ACT and National to ensure it would get past the First reading stage so it would then go to Select committee and people could get engaged. The real issue is many people don't want any debate on the topic as apparently "Racism".

      • Robert Guyton 9.1.1
        24 January 2024 at 1:00 pm

        Seymour seeks to lever open the can of worms that is public opinion so that he and his monied backers can inject their disguised venom into the minds of New Zealanders.

        • Muttonbird 9.1.1.1
          24 January 2024 at 1:24 pm

          Normally the submissions process is a way of flexing a weak democratic system in that the voice of the disenfranchised is muted while the voice of the resourced elite is amplified. Wayne Brown runs this agenda, Auckland City constantly seeking submissions on the radio.

          While shadowy funding for the far right ACT party propaganda has increased dramatically to this end, I hope this time they have bitten off more that they can chew because the opposition is significant and probable not short of (human) resources themselves.

          • Gosman 9.1.1.1.1
            24 January 2024 at 2:53 pm

            Where is your actual hard evidence for this "shadowy funding for the far right ACT party propaganda"? The most I've seen is some rather long bow drawing which tries to link ACT with the TPU with Atlas. ACT has to publish it's list of donors over a certain figure. This should make your job easy.

        • Gosman 9.1.1.3
          24 January 2024 at 2:33 pm

          Can't you handle dealing with racists? They tend to be the easiest opponents to deal with as their logic is so flawed. You just point out that genetically there are more differences within racial groupings than between them and we all come from a tiny genetic stock of humans a short time ago in scientific terms and are so mixed that racial distinctions are not really scientifically justified.

      • Incognito 9.1.2
        24 January 2024 at 1:17 pm

        She [Finance Minister Nicola Willis] said that for Act, having a debate about the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi was a priority and that National had agreed to support them having this debate at select committee.

        With all due respect, holding a debate is not the function of a select committee. Making submissions is hardly a substitute for meaningful exchange.

        Ultimately, the purpose of a committee’s consideration is to decide whether to recommend to Parliament that a bill be passed. From what is being said, I can’t see such a recommendation being made with this bill.

        In the meantime, what damage is done, especially when the bill does not reflect what Te Tiriti actually says?

        https://newsroom.co.nz/2024/01/24/acts-treaty-bill-wont-pass-but-the-damage-will-have-been-done/ [opinion piece by Lianne Dalziel; currently behind paywall]

        What she said.

        • Gosman 9.1.2.1
          24 January 2024 at 2:59 pm

          What damage? How can any damage be done by having a discussion? Unless someone is actively promoting violence or even agression against people as a result. There is no indication that is going to happen.

          • Incognito 9.1.2.1.1
            24 January 2024 at 6:04 pm

            Stay with us, please. You mentioned engagement and debate @ 9.1, which I countered using Dalziel’s words.

      • weka 9.1.3
        24 January 2024 at 1:27 pm

        The real issue is many people don't want any debate on the topic as apparently "Racism".

        again with the sophistry.

        1. you don't say what you mean by the 'topic'. Te Tiriti? The proposal of a referendum? The parliamentary process?

        2. I'm seeing lots of people against' ACT's racism fronting up and debating. The objection is that the Treaty itself is up for debate. Most people I know are ok with a public discussion about the Treaty, it's how it's being done in this instance that is the problem.

        3. wanting to rewrite the Treaty to remove Māori power and insert libertarianism in our constitution is racist by definition.

        • Robert Guyton 9.1.3.1
          24 January 2024 at 1:37 pm

          It's plain to see where Seymour's motivation comes from; rich businessmen who loathe the treaty because it thwarts their ambitions, and an ideology that seeks to mislead with sophistry.

          Seymour is the worst possible champion for any discussion around our treaty.

          • Gosman 9.1.3.1.1
            24 January 2024 at 2:29 pm

            How does it thwart their ambition? Please give an example of a rich persons ambition being thwarted by the Treaty that will be unthwarted by the changes being proposed.

            • Robert Guyton 9.1.3.1.1.1
              24 January 2024 at 2:32 pm

              Look instead, and listen to, Gosman, the position taken by those aforementioned and ask yourself why they back, bankroll, anything at all.

              • Gosman …
                24 January 2024 at 2:40 pm

                You come across as so conspiratorial. There is little to distinguish you from say an anti-vaxxer. Next you will be telling me to "Follow the money". If you have evidence present it. If you don't then don't expect me to blindly accept that what you are stating must be the truth. At the moment you are just giving your unsupported reckons.

                • Robert Guyton …
                  24 January 2024 at 2:55 pm

                  Just as Key was the wrong person to change the flag, Seymour is the wrong man to change Te Tiriti o Waitangi.

                  Both ventures required a sympathetic figurehead.

                  Neither had one.

                  • Gosman …
                    24 January 2024 at 3:00 pm

                    Noone involved in the Govt is seeking to change the Treaty of Waitangi. You are creating a Strawman to beat down.

            • weka 9.1.3.1.1.2
              24 January 2024 at 4:23 pm

              How does it thwart their ambition? Please give an example of a rich persons ambition being thwarted by the Treaty that will be unthwarted by the changes being proposed.

              One way would be to undermine Māori stopping seabed and conservation land mining. Micky wrote about it the other day, in a post you commented on so I assume you read.

              The conspiracy theorist in me thinks it is all about access to minerals. Māori have been some of the most determined protectors of the environment in the country. If their rights are extinguished then this removes a major impediment to gathering minerals in National Parks and in our oceans and shores.

              https://thestandard.org.nz/which-side-are-you-on-2/

              Maybe that's where you got your conspiracy theory line from. You can stop that derail right now. If you want to accuse specific people of this, you need to explain clearly and in depth your argument, and it better be bloody good. because at the moment you look like either you don't understand the arguments being made, or you're trolling. Don't make me put my mod hat on.

        • Gosman 9.1.3.2
          24 January 2024 at 2:28 pm

          What do you mean how it is done? What is being opened up for debate is the concept of the Principles of the Treaty. This is referred to under legislation but there is not such definition of what these means in the Treaty itself. It has essentially been left for various unelected people to define these over the past 30 or so years. The proposed wording in the legislation being put forward defines exactly what these Principles are so that other legislation can utilise it. Noone is attempting to re-write the Treaty nor remove it from law as part of this process.

          • Robert Guyton 9.1.3.2.1
            24 January 2024 at 2:50 pm

            When a sensible person recognises that butter wouldn't melt in the mouth of the person speaking, they react accordingly.

          • Incognito 9.1.3.2.2
            24 January 2024 at 3:14 pm

            Noone is attempting to re-write the Treaty nor remove it from law as part of this process.

            RW righteousness often morphs into disingenuity, and key players often masquerade as “useful idiots” (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Useful_idiot), which makes you what?

            Legislating to make English an official language will change absolutely nothing. It is a complete and utter waste of time because English is in fact an official language of Aotearoa. It doesn’t need a law to make it so. Te reo Māori, on the other hand, had to be added by legislation, as it was in 1987, and NZ Sign Language the same in 2006.

            […]

            The Māori Language Act 1987 was introduced after the Waitangi Tribunal held te reo to be a taonga that the government was obliged to protect under the Treaty of Waitangi. It also established the Māori Language Commission, which was renamed Te Taura Whiri i te Reo Māori, to promote the use of the language.

            Promoting its use is the key here.

            https://newsroom.co.nz/2024/01/24/acts-treaty-bill-wont-pass-but-the-damage-will-have-been-done/ [opinion piece by Lianne Dalziel; currently behind paywall]

            Step by step, cut by cut, chipping away at the relevance and impact of ToW, and removing corresponding parts from NZ law, may turn out to be more effective than a quasi-attempt at a full-frontal attack.

            • Gosman 9.1.3.2.2.1
              24 January 2024 at 3:34 pm

              If you say so. You seem to have this insidious plan to eliminate the Treaty of Waitangi from NZ all figured out. Of course lot's of people think the same sort of thing about topics like Fluoride in the public water supply or Vaccines. No real hard evidence but a lot of reckons.

              • Drowsy M. Kram …
                24 January 2024 at 4:32 pm

                Some are of the opinion that for decades after the Treaty of Waitangi was signed, it was more honoured in the breach than the observance.

                "To me, the central aspect of the Treaty is respect for property rights and that's where I think a lot of things went wrong because indigenous property rights were not respected." – Finlayson

                Might be why there have been so many treaty-based claims and settlements in recent decades, with still more in the pipeline. Sure, ACT pollies are 'small govt' ideologues, but (imho) best not to rock the good ship Aoteoroa NZ until outstanding claims have been sorted – in a few more decades, or so.

                David Seymour: A vote for ACT will keep National on the right
                [Jan 2023]
                The ACT Party leader, and potential coalition partner for National, is prepared to – again – turn down a ministerial role, even one as the coveted finance minister, in order to pursue his party’s policy interests.
                …
                The party’s big focus next year will be on crime and the economy, and a referendum on the Treaty of Waitangi, something Luxon has already ruled out, but which Seymour said is a bottom-line.

              • Incognito …
                24 January 2024 at 6:09 pm

                So, you’ve got no counter argument and resort to diversions and a pathetic reply. What a waste of time!

        • David 9.1.3.3
          24 January 2024 at 3:06 pm

          It is my understanding that the referendum is about the principles of the Treaty. Nothing more, nothing less. The Treaty itself is not up for debate, nor is there any suggestion that the Treaty is being re-written (as if that were even possible).

          In 1989, Labour set out 5 principles "for Crown Action on the Treaty of Waitangi". (Is there going to be a referendum? The Treaty Principles Bill explained (1news.co.nz)). My personal view is that those principles are sound, and I am opposed to this issue being determined by referendum.

          However, as stated in Teara, the Treaty principles are "always evolving to suit changing beliefs and circumstances. " (Principles of the Treaty of Waitangi – ngā mātāpono o te Tiriti o Waitangi – Te Ara Encyclopedia of New Zealand). Surely a conversation about those principles should be welcomed as part of our nations democratic, constitutional process.

          When Tuku Morgan claims that the bill represents "an all-out attack" on Māori that "will roll back race relations in this country by 50 years" (same reference) he is dangerously misrepresenting the issue, and in my view stoking the fires of dissension.

          I believe you are expressing a sincere concern, but one that is misplaced. My sense is that there are enough NZ'ers of good faith who will participate in this conversation reasonably for the benefit of all, but only of extremists (on both sides) are not allowed the oxygen to inflame division.

          • Gosman 9.1.3.3.1
            24 January 2024 at 3:36 pm

            [SARC] Yeah but these people know what REALLY is going on. They see behind the facade and know that people are trying to do over everyone [/SARC].

          • weka 9.1.3.3.2
            24 January 2024 at 4:15 pm

            It is my understanding that the referendum is about the principles of the Treaty. Nothing more, nothing less. The Treaty itself is not up for debate, nor is there any suggestion that the Treaty is being re-written (as if that were even possible).

            Real politik: if you want to stoke a culture war from within government, don't attack the Treaty directly (eg suggest removing the Treaty, or say you want to rewrite it). Instead, say you want to look at the principles instead. As if the principles aren't key to how the Treaty functions in the real world.

            Your 'nothing more, nothing less' is false I suggest you rewrite your comment quoting ACT and Seymour and see how it scans.

            Surely a conversation about those principles should be welcomed as part of our nations democratic, constitutional process.

            Obviously a conversation about the Treaty principles is important. If you read my comment again (that you replied to), then you will see I already said this.

            As Robert Guyton has been pointing out, many in NZ have been having those conversations for a long time. It's an ongoing conversation that anyone can take part in, in various ways.

            ACT don't want that. As I have been pointing out how we have that conversation matters. ACT want a different thing entirely. They don't want us to engage and develop over time, they want to impose their own interpretations on the country.

            • David 9.1.3.3.2.1
              24 January 2024 at 4:52 pm

              I think you're being dragged down a rabbit hole. There isn't a single major political party in NZ proposing removing or rewriting the Treaty. For that matter I would question whether there is even a legal vehicle to achieve anything like either of those outcomes.

              Anyway:

              "As Robert Guyton has been pointing out, many in NZ have been having those conversations for a long time. It's an ongoing conversation that anyone can take part in, in various ways."

              No, 'anyone' cannot take part in this conversation, clearly. Not even 'many'. The principles of the Treaty have been determined by governments and courts, with little recourse to wider public debate.

              Perhaps Kiingi Tūheitia was speaking to us all when he said "There’s no principles, the Treaty is written. That’s it.” and "Don’t look to the courts to understand the Treaty, look to the marae.”

              • weka …
                24 January 2024 at 6:10 pm

                you have to supply a link every time you quote. Please supply a link now before you comment further.

                Please read this,

                https://thestandard.org.nz/moderation-notes-in-election-year/

              • weka …
                24 January 2024 at 6:39 pm

                There isn't a single major political party in NZ proposing removing or rewriting the Treaty.

                You appear to not have understood my point, I suggest reading my comment again.

                Anyway:

                "As Robert Guyton has been pointing out, many in NZ have been having those conversations for a long time. It's an ongoing conversation that anyone can take part in, in various ways."

                No, 'anyone' cannot take part in this conversation, clearly. Not even 'many'. The principles of the Treaty have been determined by governments and courts, with little recourse to wider public debate.

                Sure they can. Robert has talked about it in terms of local body government. Many people have been talking on social media. Anyone can submit on legislation. People can go on to marae. And so on.

                Māori have an awesome ability to network and then organise politically, non-Māori could learn some things from that.

          • Muttonbird 9.1.3.3.3
            24 January 2024 at 9:07 pm

            It seems to be a moving feast because the (deliberately) leaked report outlines three completely different new principles to the ones you linked to from last November. I guess all that shadowy funding hasn't got the decent lawyers in yet. I also suspect this is why no one trusts ACT (and National) not to change things as they go. They are simply not trustworthy people.

            Nah, those are rewrites/adjustments of the articles of the Treaty as far as I can see:

            https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/507090/government-confirms-leaked-document-was-a-ministry-treaty-principles-bill-memo

            Still, it is part of the playbook ACT and their lackeys use to confuse and disrupt; denial, innocence, changing information, competing statements, and deferral. You can see this played out in real time by the three headed Taniwha government.

            • David 9.1.3.3.3.1
              24 January 2024 at 9:44 pm

              "It seems to be a moving feast…"

              It does. I'm not even sure the bill is drafted yet? I've already stated I oppose a referendum on the principles of the treaty – I tend to agree with Jim Bolger who said "If they're going to be considered at all they have to be considered in a calm and reasonable way and referendums are not there for calm and reasonable discussion." Is there going to be a referendum? The Treaty Principles Bill explained (1news.co.nz). However I see value in this conversation, and the process of getting more people engaged in it.

        • Gosman 9.1.3.4
          24 January 2024 at 6:07 pm

          How is anything you mentioned racist exactly? Stating ALL people in NZ have equal rights and duties is not favouring or putting down any ethnic group. On the contrary it would be racist to state one group based on ethnicity should have more rights than others.

          • Incognito 9.1.3.4.1
            24 January 2024 at 6:16 pm

            In other words, removing collective Māori power is the goal, be it real or imagined, in the present or in the future.

            QED

          • weka 9.1.3.4.2
            24 January 2024 at 6:18 pm

            On the contrary it would be racist to state one group based on ethnicity should have more rights than others.

            Who has said that? Please be specific and quote and link.

            Stating ALL people in NZ have equal rights and duties is not favouring or putting down any ethnic group

            Don't need to mess with the Treaty to do that though eh.

            Seymour's racism is in trying to remove acknowledgement that there are biases against Māori built into the system. For instance, Māori are more likely to end up in prison, because the government runs policy that makes Māori disproportionately poor, and the various system Māori engage with, eg the Justice system, treat Māori with bias enough times for it to count against them.

            The Crown stole land from Māori, introduced laws that made life very difficult for Māori, and ran policy likewise. There is no equivalent for non-Māori in NZ, so this idea about all people should have equal rights is again sophistry.

            Of course all people should have equal rights, but atm they don't. There is bias in the system as well as historical injustices.

            • Gosman 9.1.3.4.2.1
              24 January 2024 at 6:27 pm

              I didn't state anybody has stated that. I am contrasting what ACT is saying with the opposite view which would be the racist one. I am doing so to show how the view expressed is not racist.

              All your other views which can be combined under the tag of “Systematic racism” are eminently debateable. There maybe multiple reasons why Maori might have a higher rate of negative statistics than other groups beyond the system is racist against them.

              I personally think it is related to the effects of rapid urbanisation post WWII. Prior to this the gap between Maori and non-Maori was not so noticeable. It would also explain why Pasifika people have similar high rates in the negative statistics versus Chinese and Indian people. The same applied to Irish and other poor European communities moving enmasse from rural to urban environments in the 19th and early 20th centuries.

              • weka …
                24 January 2024 at 6:32 pm

                good to know you have to put up a straw man argument to make your point.

                Your understanding of racism is stunted Gosman. You can choose to think that is what racism is, and ignore the other aspects of the phenomenon, but you will not be able to follow the politics here.

            • Gosman 9.1.3.4.2.2
              24 January 2024 at 6:35 pm

              Do you know what parts of NZ have the highest deprivation rates for Maori Weka?

              • weka …
                24 January 2024 at 6:41 pm

                make your point if you have one Gosman.

                • Gosman …
                  25 January 2024 at 7:14 am

                  My point is if the effects of colonialism was what causes the social problems facing many Maori today you would reasonably expect the areas of the country where these effects were the greatest should have the worst problems and the areas where the impact of colonisation was the least would not have as high an incidence os such issues.

                  As both the Far North and East Cape were impacted less by colonisation as compared to say the South Island, Waikato, and Taranaki it suggest the causal link you are suggesting are not as strong as you suggest given these are the areas of the country with some of the worst social statistics.

                  • weka …
                    25 January 2024 at 8:05 am

                    As both the Far North and East Cape were impacted less by colonisation…

                    in what ways were they 'impacted less'? Please be specific.

                    • Gosman …
                      25 January 2024 at 8:49 am

                      In terms of land loss and disruption to cultural connections and support.

                      Both those regions of NZ have among the highest rate of land still under Maori control (either through the Maori land court or in local hands). They also have among the highest rates of Te Reo speaker in the nation. The rate of people who speak and understand Te Reo is 8 % in Northland and 14% in Gisborne as compared to less than 2 % for the South Island (see https://www.ethniccommunities.govt.nz/resources/our-languages-o-tatou-reo/languages-spoken-by-region/). Maori also make up a greater proportion of the total population in those regions and there was less settlement by non-Maori.

                      Following the logic behind your argument these places should have better statistics among local Maori than areas where they were heavily impacted by British colonisation like the South Island. This is not the case as you will see by this as members of Nga Tahu have better social statistics than the average of Maori in NZ.

                      https://ngaitahu.iwi.nz/assets/Documents/Ngai-Tahu-population-statistics-report-2016.pdf

                    • Muttonbird …
                      25 January 2024 at 8:57 am

                      ^ The inference being that the unfinished job of colonising Northland and the East Cape should proceed with haste, for their own good.

                      The Maori way is inferior, the Pakeha way is superior. The Maoriness of Maori is a disease which must be treated in order for them and the country to succeed. Look, over the last generation it's already spreading to non-Maori!

                      I think ACT leaders, candidates and voters genuinely don't think they are racist because the racism is so deeply embedded it seems natural…

  10. Robert Guyton 10
    24 January 2024 at 1:20 pm

    Luxon at Rātana – will he say National will NOT allow ACT's anti-Māori proposal to go beyond first reading and will he apologise to all Māori for allowing it to have gotten this far?

    • weka 10.1
      24 January 2024 at 1:28 pm

      I'm guessing not, but a commitment and apology is absolutely called for.

      • Gosman 10.1.1
        24 January 2024 at 2:44 pm

        What is he going to apologies for – Hurt feelings?

        • Robert Guyton 10.1.1.1
          24 January 2024 at 2:47 pm

          Fomenting discord.

          • Gosman 10.1.1.1.1
            24 January 2024 at 3:19 pm

            Oooerrrr!!! Formenting discord. How awful! Next he might actually spill some milk which will cause people to breakdown in tears.

        • weka 10.1.1.2
          24 January 2024 at 5:42 pm

          What is he going to apologies for – Hurt feelings?

          Letting Nat's coalition partner get this far down the track of monkey wrenching the Treaty.

          • Gosman 10.1.1.2.1
            24 January 2024 at 5:56 pm

            Except that is not what is happening. It might be what SOME people think is happening. But those people are wrong and National doesn't need to apologise for their miscomprehension.

    • Gosman 10.2
      24 January 2024 at 2:43 pm

      Given the fact he has now hinted he might be convinced to swing the National party behind passing the proposed legislation at a 2nd reading I suspect he has recived focu group and internal polling that suggests there is a lot of support for it and he won't be ignoring that to curry favour with a group who tend not to support National anyway.

      • Robert Guyton 10.2.1
        24 January 2024 at 2:47 pm

        "… a group who tend not to support National anyway."

        Māori?

        • Gosman 10.2.1.1
          24 January 2024 at 3:04 pm

          No. The people who attended the Hui on the weekend which did not include the majority of Maori nor did it only include Maori. I think John Campbell was there for example. I doubt National is going to lose sleep over not making John Campbell happy.

          • Robert Guyton 10.2.1.1.1
            24 January 2024 at 3:11 pm

            Pfffffffft!

          • Incognito 10.2.1.1.2
            24 January 2024 at 6:26 pm

            Your straw men are tedious. Nobody here argued that the Hui included [did you mean represented?] the [?] majority of Māori. John Campbell was just one among about 10,000 and he was there in his capacity as reporter, AFAIK.

      • James Simpson 10.2.2
        24 January 2024 at 3:41 pm

        I fear you are correct Gosman. This is pure populism.

        The 3 waters debacle was in my view the issue that Labour lost control of, and resulted in a wide spread anti Maori backlash. That ultimately saw them lose support and in the end, the election.

        That showed us that the general population is not yet ready to embrace a full 50 50 partnership, and any government that tries to do so will be rejected (in the medium term at least).

        National will know that and their internal polling will be confirming that.

        I wouldn't be surprised if they end up supporting the referendum.

        Noisy protests will only strengthen their resolve and support with their base.

        • Gosman 10.2.2.1
          24 January 2024 at 3:53 pm

          Why do you fear this? What you should fear is negative outcomes. I've yet to see someone articulate what these are exactly beyond vague accusations that Maori will be screwed over. How they are going to be is not mentioned just that is of course what will happen.

          Populism is not necessarily bad by the way.

          • Incognito 10.2.2.1.1
            24 January 2024 at 5:00 pm

            Populism is not necessarily bad by the way.

            Yeah, nothing wrong with RW populism. Tax cuts, anyone? \sarc

          • adam 10.2.2.1.2
            24 January 2024 at 7:32 pm

            Still defending your parties inability to honor a contract.

            How very droll

          • Robert Guyton 10.2.2.1.3
            25 January 2024 at 12:13 pm

            A question about David Seymour was asked, Gosman, and I thought you were the person to answer it:

            Muttonbird wrote:

            Why has David Seymour been too scared to speak or even present himself at Tūrangawaewae and now Rātana?"

            • Gosman 10.2.2.1.3.1
              25 January 2024 at 3:12 pm

              He sees no point in turning up to be told some Maori are unhappy. He is well aware some Maori are unhappy. He also has never attended the Ratana meet up as he thinks it is a waste of time give Ratana's political leanings.

              • Incognito …
                25 January 2024 at 3:49 pm

                Ahhhh!

                The tireless champion of free speech doesn’t want to listen to others who may be unhappy about what he said and disagree with him. One wonders what the partnership really means to him – a cold shoulder if he doesn’t get his own way?

                The great instigator of public debate about ToW has already made up his mind about the topic and about the people who may object because he’s heard it all before. This bodes well for the Select Committee process and any public submission round, if it gets this far.

                The wannabe pretender who is not really interested in debate at all, doesn’t want to engage, but just wants to force his views through in an underhand authoritarian manner. Is he not an elected politician and representative? Sounds like something Wayne Brown would do with some lame excuse from a Deputy.

                Still, he could always do a ‘hard-hitting interview’ on one of his preferred Platforms of ‘pubic engagement’.

                And then there are the jokers & apologists who stick up for him and quite possibly also voted for his party.

                And the Machiavellian tactics of the coalition government are becoming clearer and more blatant each and every day.

                What an absolute shambles!

                • Gosman …
                  25 January 2024 at 5:01 pm

                  Where did you get the idea the free speech means you have to listen to others? Free speech means people are not shut down. There is no requirement for people to listen or even care.

                  • Robert Guyton …
                    25 January 2024 at 6:09 pm

                    That's it! About your claims, I don't care 🙂

                  • Incognito …
                    25 January 2024 at 7:23 pm

                    Look up the difference between free speech and monologue. Discuss in 1500-2000 words. 15 pts. Hand in no later than 29th February.

                • Gosman …
                  25 January 2024 at 5:23 pm

                  A Politician has an obligation to engage with the public. That does not mean they need to engage with every Tom, Dick, or Hone that is holding a public meeting or get together. These people are entitled to attend an event or arrange a meeting with him is they so desire it.

              • Muttonbird …
                25 January 2024 at 7:20 pm

                It was a great opportunity to make the case he is so confident about. To show that he's not anti-Maori and concerned with their welfare. But he didn't do that because he's not concerned with Maori, he would like to reduce that culture to one of a number of cultures.

                But Seymour is not concerned with taking the nation with him because he knows only 51% is required at referendum stage. Achievable with huge funding from wealthy Pakeha. This is the flaw in democracy scumbags like David Seymour exploit.

                He didn’t turn up because he’s scared his performance in real world debate might destroy the optics of his calm abolishment of Te Ao Maori.

                • Anne …
                  25 January 2024 at 7:43 pm

                  You forgot to add that he didn't turn up also because he is basically a coward. Cowards avoid events that might show them up for being what they really are – shallow, vindictive low-lives whose aim in life is to bully others into submission because it makes them feel better about themselves.

                  Come Waitangi Day, don't be surprised if he announces at the last minute that his security detail have… warned him to stay away and he has decided to heed their advice. It will depend on what happens between now and then of course, but there is no way he will put himself in a position that could lead to an exposé of his real agenda.

                  • Muttonbird …
                    25 January 2024 at 7:55 pm

                    Waitangi is an interesting one because the trust board will want everything down the line, impartial and safe but will also want people to be abler to express their views. Can't clamp down on your own to protect a racist from rude words.

      • SPC 10.2.3
        24 January 2024 at 4:16 pm

        NZF has already said it will not go beyond a first reading, their MP votes would be needed to do so.

        NZ First MP Shane Jones was a little clearer, quick to confirm New Zealand First won't support it further.

        "We'll participate in the process to have the bill tabled in Parliament, debated in Parliament, referred to Select Committee, and after that we won't be voting for it," he said.

        https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2024/01/prime-minister-christopher-luxon-not-ruling-out-voting-for-treaty-principles-bill-at-second-reading.html

  11. Incognito 11
    24 January 2024 at 1:33 pm

    The inevitable mission creep of the coalition government. \sarc

    The razor gang is wielding the austerity knife to gut the State from the inside out, so that it can no longer fulfil its oversight duties & responsibilities to maintain a well-functioning democracy.

    The scale of the cost pressures facing the service were $3.5 to $4 million a year, so the additional cuts would double that gap if they were implemented.

    Neither the Office of the Clerk nor the Parliamentary Service were on the list of 21 agencies targeted for budget cuts by National before the election.

    https://newsroom.co.nz/2024/01/24/nicola-willis-to-cut-parliaments-budget-by-3-5-million/ [by Marc Daalder; currently behind paywall]

  12. Robert Guyton 12
    24 January 2024 at 2:37 pm

    From the live broadcast at Rātana Pā, the kaikorero sang,

    "One day a taniwha

    Went swimming in the moana …"

    Then made reference to "toru" – the coalition, but I missed his meaning.

    Did anyone here catch it?

  13. Robert Guyton 13
    24 January 2024 at 2:58 pm

    Shaun Jones, "Don't spoil the day with your complaining, come to Waitangi and we'll explain all!"

    Arrow.

    Gant.

  14. Robert Guyton 14
    24 January 2024 at 2:59 pm

    Peter's is being a dick and receiving boos and derision. Arguing with tangata whenua as though they were the media!
    Now, he’s appalling to any xenophobes in the audience – “foreigners are coming to take what’s yours!”
    Too late, Winston. That happened before the treaty was signed!

  15. Robert Guyton 15
    24 January 2024 at 3:09 pm

    Now Luxon is Māorisplaining.

  16. Robert Guyton 16
    24 January 2024 at 3:11 pm

    Luxon used the word, "devolution"

    Genius!

  17. James Simpson 17
    24 January 2024 at 3:25 pm

    Trump wins New Hamsphire….

  18. SPC 18
    24 January 2024 at 5:24 pm

    The RB target of 4% inflation by the end of 2023 was not met (because of the 1.8% Sept quarter). The Dec quarter was only 0.5%, so it came in at 4.7% for the year.

    It looks well positioned at 0.5% in the last quarter to be under the 3% target for the end of 2024.

    The risks are rent and rates (water infrastructure) and building costs (and maybe power if Genesis plans for another price increase are indicative) – all tracking well above other sectors.

    https://www.1news.co.nz/2024/01/24/inflation-rate-falls-to-47-as-economic-cooling-continues/

    Hilariously and rather obviously

    Taypayers’ Union policy adviser James Ross disagrees with this and said that “this inflation is driven by unsustainably high government spending

    If the government does not help councils with their water issues, watch rates soar and the TU advise sale of their assets (so the same people who made money buying power company shares off the central government can do the same with council water assets).

    An honourary chocolate fish award for those who can explain how “unsustainably high” government spending increases the price of food, the cost of rent, construction and rates …

    • Nic the NZer 18.1
      24 January 2024 at 7:01 pm

      The slightly elevated inflation rate never had anything to do with excessive, or even particularly high government spending. The following link references an analysis by Joseph Stiglitz describing the inflationary episode as transitory (would abate after the transitory circumstances dissipated).

      https://billmitchell.org/blog/?p=61491

      Simply put the inflation was related to various supply side impacts of the pandemic and Ukraine invasion and monetary or fiscal policy are unable to do anything to really change that outcome.

      The RBNZ policy has however been pretty damaging to the country. The impact of the monetary policy has been to push landlords to increase rents, driving rental inflation and to generate a small amount of excess unemployment (related in scale to the GDP fall).

      The main stream however conceives inflation as always demand driven and related to excessive wage rates. The obvious contradictory to this narrative fact's being, wage increases have lagged inflation and any corporate price increases have never been passed onto employees (the price increases generated excessive profits instead). This was rather gently highlighted during the election campaign to the right wing parties, but somehow their overall narrative that the economy has been too good to most people (which was somehow causing inflation), took hold. Unfortunately for a lot of economic commentators the mechanism supposedly generating the outcomes can be entirely assumed to exist, even if contradicted by actual economic statistics.

    • David 18.2
      24 January 2024 at 8:41 pm

      Earlier last year, Thomas Coughlin summarised research conducted by Treasury economists here Government spending stoked inflation – Treasury paper – NZ Herald.

      In essence, Treasury economists "sought to disentangle the supply and demand components of the inflation spike" The research found that "supply and demand drivers that the model can explain have contributed roughly equal amounts to annual inflation in the past year, although different models give different estimations”.

      They also break down the various elements of demand and supply side components, and the timing of how and when they each impacted most. (“While supply and demand contributed roughly equal amounts to inflation, they did not always contribute equally at the same time.”)

      • Nic the NZer 18.2.1
        24 January 2024 at 10:09 pm

        Even if you attribute a portion to demand and a portion to supply that may not be very relevant to economic policy however. There were certain classes of goods for which there certainly was a big bump in demand, particularly items relating to large numbers of people suddenly working from home a lot more. However this excess demand is still a rather temporary impact and eventually people have furnished their home offices even if there was a bit of a temporary shortage of these kinds of items. Businesses supplying such goods would have made out well from this high demand whether they increased their prices or not.

        What was not found in such research (and its kind of the whole narrative), was excessive NZ wage growth preceding inflation. Were that to have occurred it would be easily identified in regular economic statistics.

        Also with such analysis, when your answer largely depends on how you specified the model, this mostly says your model doesn't work the way the economy actually functions or how your narrative implies. In terms of this particular research treasury likely applied the standard assumption that all prices (including wages) are flexible, or at least flexible enough that supply and demand will drive the prices to an equilibrium. Research into how prices are actually set (like surveys of price setters in businesses) typically find more than half of all prices are determined as average cost + margin. If your using the wrong model to work out proportions attributed to supply and demand then the proportions you get out are simply meaningless numbers.

        • David 18.2.1.1
          25 January 2024 at 12:20 am

          Thanks Nic. I’ve found the Treasury summary of the work of their economists at https://www.treasury.govt.nz/publications/research-and-commentary/rangitaki-blog/feu-special-topic-decomposing-inflation-supply-and-demand-drivers, which may answer some questions about the modelling. It seems to me fairly clear that government spending has some impact on inflation (and economist Cameron Bagrie has the same view https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2022/07/economist-cameron-bagrie-on-whether-government-spending-is-driving-inflation.amp.html), however it is in the composition of cause where the debate takes place.

          Just in regards to your comment about how prices are set, I would concur with what you describe as the ‘standard assumption’. The cost+ model is generally subservient to the market, and I would suggest that the cost increases in the building industry showed that clearly.

          • Nic the NZer 18.2.1.1.1
            25 January 2024 at 12:44 am

            All spending has the potential to impact inflation of course. But I think economic commentators and economists should really make it more clear what the assumed mechanism is there. Of course any model of inflation is anticipating particular behaviors by price setters to generate it.

            The rather simplistic story about excess demand really needs to examine a few points, such as if your making excess profits due to price hikes shouldn't that be firstly shared with the work force? This is much more a political discussion, rather than some automatic mechanism where pricing decisions are calculated of course.

            The cost + pricing model has rather different outcomes from a supply and demand based pricing model. There are certainly supply and demand based prices in the economy (say wholesale energy prices) but even in these cases there are some pretty strict rules about allowed bids and a whole electricity market infrastructure needed to have regular market clearing prices. And if your model is not using the right mechanism then the numbers your getting out are largely nonsense (this is true of any model actually).

            • David 18.2.1.1.1.1
              25 January 2024 at 10:23 am

              "but even in these cases there are some pretty strict rules about allowed bids and a whole electricity market infrastructure needed to have regular market clearing prices. "

              Those rules apply in more regulated parts of the market, utilities etc, but not so much in other areas. In the construction industry, supply side factors (eg material shortages) added to demand shortages (in part caused by stimulus) to create excess demand that drove up prices. Of course in some cases those price increases were limited to the extent of the supplier cost increases, but there will have been plenty based on the 'make hay while the sun shines' economic 'theory'.

              • Nic the NZer …
                25 January 2024 at 10:54 am

                That is the point, yes. Its likely that only with strict rules and regular public clearing that flexible pricing is a functional model. Also some of the rules are more or less aligned with electricity public policy, like requiring wind farms to offer a zero bid.

                In other cases you can base your model on supply and demand being the price drivers, but you still need to demonstrate that with real world evidence your model is correct. This would be a massive hurdle for such an understanding to get over in fact, because the participants don't think this is how they are setting their prices this way and neither do they adjust their prices in line with changes in supply and demand. Basically the real world evidence is stacked directly against how the economy is supposed to work here.

                Its also relevant here that the main macro models are unable to implement other pricing mechanisms as, the expected behaviors are much less constrained when you don't assume agents are profit maximizing with flexible pricing. This is why they are going to go with that assumption in the modeling exercise, though its not telling us anything really about the state of the NZ economy or the governments economic policy.

      • SPC 18.2.2
        24 January 2024 at 11:17 pm

        It is generally acknowledged that government wage subsidy and money for local/regional projects kept the economy ticking over and the RB put too much money through banks into the housing market all while easing deposit ratio's and delayed a tightening too long.

        Of the four* demand factors, only one was government spending

        government spending, the Reserve Bank, and New Zealand’s then-hot housing market ….*

        https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/government-spending-stoked-inflation-treasury-paper/RF63AMUQC5GRJFI5YN2A4ERZWY/

        *and a shortage of workers 2021-2022/2023 placing upward pressure on wages.

        • David 18.2.2.1
          24 January 2024 at 11:54 pm

          Yes, the Treasury economists were clear government spending was only one of many factors. I agree about the RB – although as Michael Reddell points out, they weren’t alone (https://croakingcassandra.com/2023/03/16/new-zealands-monetary-policy-mess/).

          • Nic the NZer 18.2.2.1.1
            25 January 2024 at 8:30 am

            Here is an analysis of the developed country with the lowest inflation rate across the period, and a reasonable analysis of how the central bank contributed to that outcome.

            https://billmitchell.org/blog/?p=61341

            https://billmitchell.org/blog/?p=61468

            https://billmitchell.org/blog/?p=61510

            Unfortunately, Michael Reddell is clearly incapable of understanding the relevant economics involved here, and would be against such a policy. He seems to prefer the negative impacts of the inflation be urgently pushed most harshly onto renters and people in precarious employment (via interest rate hikes) as a priority. This is the primary outcome of NZs monetary policy response to this inflationary period.

            While in the best case it is for certain NZs inflation would have been higher than Japan (pretty much regardless of the policy), as a lot of impacts are related to companies monopoly price setting power in NZ (not easy to improve quickly). But NZ could have had lower inflation in a more fair manner simply by extending the QE policy (which sets the monetary policy rate to zero) and leaving it up to fiscal policy to subsidize those who were badly affected by inflation (with measures like public transport subsidies being extended, etc…).

            • David 18.2.2.1.1.1
              25 January 2024 at 10:37 am

              The merits of Modern Monetary Theory is a much bigger discussion. I've read a number of critiques finding for and against. But the debate is healthy – and a lot of economists are watching Japan.

              • Nic the NZer …
                26 January 2024 at 6:22 pm

                The merits of MMT are rather irrelevant to the way that monetary policy is being implemented and its consequences. This is because MMT is the practice of doing economics when starting from a realistic model of how monetary institutions work (and proceeding from there). While you may well understand the economy better and maybe implement better economic policy with a better understanding, MMT is not a policy regime. Meanwhile the RBNZ is applying a particular policy regime using NAIRU targeting to specify monetary policy.

                Economists have been following Japan for 30 odd years of course with the hope of developing an understanding. Some have been regularly predicting some kind of imminent economic collapse owing to their monetary policy, and some others developed MMT.

                • David …
                  26 January 2024 at 6:57 pm

                  I disagree that MMT is not a policy regime. In fact that's exactly how the Bank of France describe it. The Meaning of MMT | Publications (banque-france.fr). Their critique of MMT is brutal BTW.

                  As for Japan, it's open to debate just how long, and to what extent, Japan has been implementing MMT. Modern money theory and its implementation and challenges: The case of Japan | CEPR

                  Perhaps it's the old case of you put 10 economists in a room and you get 11 different answers.

                  • Nic the NZer …
                    26 January 2024 at 7:58 pm

                    "As for Japan, it's open to debate just how long, and to what extent, Japan has been implementing MMT."

                    That's exactly the point, MMT is not a policy regime. As far as I am aware the BOJ or Japanese government have never asked any MMT economist what they should do. Quite the opposite MMT economists have considered the Japanese economy (and many others) through their framework while developing MMT (in particular Warren Mosler and Bill Mitchell each did this independently before collaborating).

                    But its possible to consider every monetary economy using MMT, as far as I am aware. The differences in institutions often tells you a few key things about what to expect, in fact.

                    I've only skim read it of course, but that document is quite funny, if bordering on polemical. Apparently MMT needs to contrast itself with the QTM approach. I put the date of the RBNZ officially rejecting that in 1986 (in the unlikely event anyone there ever believed it was viable at the time), around the time all central banks swore off it as a policy. Apparently that's still a corner stone of mainstream economic thinking which needs addressing.

                    Anyway, while there is fairly obvious potential for policy improvements once the basics of MMT are applied, you really couldn't analyze existing economic performance using a policy regime. Probably the most disliked suggestion from MMT is to de-mystify government spending in some simple ways, by stopping debt govt issuance and simply moving all public payments directly into the central bank govt accounts. According to MMT this regime would perform … identically to a country running QE policies (the monetary policy rate becomes zero due to an excess of clearing funds). The only difference there is that it becomes a lot more clear that the government doesn't have a spending constraint, which should improve public understanding of economics and economic policy. On the other hand anybody who understands the NZ economy via MMT already understands that the government doesn't have a spending constraint today. Incidentally this is why the country wasn't bankrupted by the pandemic, despite regular missives in the pre-ceding decades that the country was almost bankrupt and needed to seriously constrain its budget.

  19. Muttonbird 19
    24 January 2024 at 9:28 pm

    Why has David Seymour been too scared to speak or even present himself at Tūrangawaewae and now Rātana?

    He does pretend to want to debate the relevance of te Tiriti o Waitangi so the least he can do is engage in the debate he and his backers have invented.

    I suspect he only wants to debate within the womb of parliament, and the bassinet of big shadowy funding, rather than out in the real world.

    We have a cloistered activist here!

    • adam 19.1
      24 January 2024 at 10:29 pm

      It's a party of shirkers and people who's word or handshake is meaningless as they will welch on you, as quick as look at you.

      From it's founding click to the current mob, the total worst of NZ culture festering together.

      I expect nothing less.

    • Robert Guyton 19.2
      25 January 2024 at 8:51 am

      Gosman will know!

      Let's ask him.

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    5 days ago

  • Overseas decommissioning models considered
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  • Release of North Island Severe Weather Event Inquiry
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  • Justice Minister to attend Human Rights Council
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  • Patterson reopens world’s largest wool scouring facility
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    5 days ago

  • Speech to the Southland Otago Regional Engineering Collective Summit, 18 April 2024
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    6 days ago

  • Government to introduce revised Three Strikes law
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  • New diplomatic appointments
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  • Humanitarian support for Ethiopia and Somalia
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  • Arts Minister congratulates Mataaho Collective
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  • Supporting better financial outcomes for Kiwis
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    7 days ago

  • Trade relationship with China remains strong
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  • PM’s South East Asia mission does the business
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  • $41m to support clean energy in South East Asia
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  • Judicial appointments announced
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  • Comprehensive Partnership the goal for NZ and the Philippines
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    1 week ago

  • Government commits $20m to Westport flood protection
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    1 week ago

  • Taupō takes pole position
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  • Cost of living support for low-income homeowners
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  • Government backing mussel spat project
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    1 week ago

  • Government focused on getting people into work
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    1 week ago

  • Clean energy key driver to reducing emissions
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    1 week ago

  • Earthquake-prone buildings review brought forward
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  • Thailand and NZ to agree to Strategic Partnership
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    1 week ago

  • Government consults on extending coastal permits for ports
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    2 weeks ago

  • Inflation coming down, but more work to do
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