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Open mike 25/06/2021

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, June 25th, 2021 - 67 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

67 comments on “Open mike 25/06/2021 ”

  1. Sabine 1

    The Eastern Busway is a dedicated busway, similar to the Northern Busway, for the car-dependent eastern suburbs, which includes new bus interchanges at Pakuranga and Botany and the Reeves Rd flyover.

    Once built – the completion date has been pushed out from 2025 to 2027 – it is expected to carry 30,000 people a day between the rapidly growing south-eastern suburbs and the rail network at Panmure.

    One of Auckland's biggest transport projects, the $1.4 billion Eastern Busway from Panmure to Pakuranga and Botany, has been put back two years following a surprise cut to Auckland's Transport budget.

    Auckland councillors yesterday learned the $940 million capital budget they signed off for Auckland last month in their long-term budget no longer exists. The new budget is $820m.

    Well, maybe they could ask the government for some dosh, and rather then ask for a busway tell them that you need a bicycle lane or two on the motorway to combat climate change by getting people out of the car.


    • Ad 1.1

      Botany and Pakuranga just don't care.

      They haven't seen the pt benefits like North Shore have. Won't bother them.

      • Sabine 1.1.1

        Well, then, it is all good then. Labour surely won't need these votes come the next election. Next.

        • Incognito

          One is the electorate of the allegedly anointed new Leader of the National Party, the other one is the electorate with the largest National Party majority of all electorates in the country.



          Both Ad and you are correct.


          • alwyn

            Well at least you are honest about the Government's approach.

            If you don't vote for us you will get nothing. They are learning from the Singapore Government I see. They are notorious for this behaviour.

            • Incognito

              Good grief! Both Sabine and you are so bloody ignorant and yet so happy to parade your ignorance here in full view. You are such time wasters; your comments are full of venomous bile and bullshit.

              In addition, are you sure you don’t want to make a comparison with the North Korean government?

              • alwyn

                "In addition, are you sure you don’t want to make a comparison with the North Korean government?"

                You are certainly much closer to the Parties in Government that I am. Would you say it was appropriate to equate them or have you already told us too much about the way they operate?

                • Incognito

                  You most certainly are much closer to the politicians than I am, so I’ll leave it to you to consult with them on your silly and irrelevant comparisons with other regimes. Meanwhile, please ignore and cover up your ignominious ignorance.

              • Sabine

                Not so fast, dear Incognito. Not so fast.

                2020 election Papakura (https://www.parliament.nz/en/mps-and-electorates/historical-electorate-profiles/electorate-profiles-data/document/DBHOH_Lib_EP_Papakura_Electoral_Profile/papakura-electoral-profile)

                COLLINS, Judith (NAT) 20,266 55.63

                PABLA, Jesse (LAB) 12,780 35.08

                GREENING, Toa (NZF) 2,778 7.63

                BHANA, Raewyn Teresa (MAOR)607 1.67

                Botany (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Botany_(New_Zealand_electorate))

                NationalChristopher Luxon 16,661 53.23

                LabourNaisi Chen 11,890 38.0

                I might be ignorant to some who don't like what i have to say, and i have no issues with that, i do not endevour to please just for the sake of pleasing.

                But that comment by Ad in regards to the many different people of these two electorates – that they simply don't care about public transport – is lazy at best, callous at worst.

                But then maybe Labour is not disappointing the National voters in these electorates but rather their own voters. But then everyone knows that Papakura and Botany are the two

                electorate with the largest National Party majority of all electorates

                and thus it is good and ok to cancel a much needed Busway, and never mind the Labour voters. They just need to move to a more appropriate area were National MPs don’t get voted in.

                I might be ignorant to you Incognito, but i am not willfully blind.

                • Incognito


                  Stop digging and why don’t you read the NZH link in your own comment @ 1. You may not be wilfully blind, but blind nonetheless.

                  Ad doesn’t comment here to please either but he does provoke people in firing up their lazy ignorant brains. Some think he’s lazy and callous, but his comments just go over their head.

                  And who said that cancelling the Busway is “good and ok”, except you? You’re seeing and hearing things that don’t exist AKA strawmen and tilting at windmills.

                • Ad

                  Panmure station figures are up strong. Not Pakuranga. Maurice Williamson and the local board poisoned public opinion against pt for years. And was last Labour in 1969, and never will be.

                  Papakura is getting a big SH1 widening, plus massive subdivisions and town centres. Train pt is small but steady. Papakura has never, ever been Labour, and never will be.

                  No loss either way.

  2. Incognito 2

    Suppose I were to approach you with a suspicious substance and offer you the choice of sniffing it, touching it, tasting it, or having it injected directly into your body, I suspect few would choose the last option.


    Indeed, this is the closest I’ve seen in a while that attempts to explain the visceral-emotional reaction of some to vaccination in general and against Covid vaccination in particular. To be clear, it is not phobia of needles per se, but fear of what’s in the syringe.

    • Forget now 2.1

      Unfortunately modern vaccines aren't the sort of thing where you can give people the recipe and let them make it for themselves.

      It is new biotech with low, but significant, side-effect risks (and I certainly wouldn't be touching Sputnik 5!), so the hesitant who are waiting and seeing may be be persuaded by the lack of adverse effects as their peer groups are vaccinated over the coming months. I guess, once the willing team-members are fully vaccinated, vaccine-averse kiwis can be given a few vials to play with (I am thinking in a teaching lab to demonstrate that the contents are as stated – though if they want to rub it on their skin and see what happens, that'd be expensive, but sure; if it helps increase familiarity). Really we have to distribute any unused vaccines to our neighbours more urgently.

      No one is safe until everyone is safe.

      • GreenBus 2.1.1

        "No one is safe until everyone is safe." Is 80%, the so called herd immunity enough?

        Maybe the anti vaxers would account to this option and leave more vaccine for 3rd world countries that might never be rid of covid19?

        • Drowsy M. Kram

          Yep, this link suggests that if 80% of NZers were fully vaccinated with the Pfizer vaccine (which is at least 85% effective against all COVID-19 variants that have evolved to date), then that would be sufficent to realise the benefits of herd immunity.


          Note that herd immunity is just what it says – in the event of Covid-19 infection, unvaccinated individuals will still be at (much) greater risk of developing a life-threatening illness than their vaccinated conterparts.


        • Drowsy M. Kram

          Caveat – I'm just grabbing stuff off the Internet. The R0 of the original Covid-19 virus is 2.5; the Alpha variant has an R0 of 3.75, and the Delta variant has an R0 of 5.


          Don't know what % of NZers would need to be vaccinated with the Pfizer vaccine to achieve herd immunity against the Delta variant, but someone here will.

          • Andre

            The over-simplistic formula just considering R0 and vaccine efficacy is that the proportion needed to be vaccinated for herd immunity is greater than (1-1/R0)/e.

            So if the Delta variant has R0 of 5, and the Pfizer vaccine has 85% efficacy against it, herd immunity should be achieved when over 94% of the population is vaccinated. Or if the Pfizer vaccine has 90% efficacy, then the herd immunity threshold is 89% vaccinated.

            Those thresholds appear unlikely to actually be achieved, particularly since the anti-social arsehole anti-vaxers do seem to be getting a small amount of traction. Particularly within specific communities.

            Once everyone in NZ that wants vaccination has received it, it's very unlikely the borders will remain closed, or any restrictions on movements imposed. So a likely outcome is that there will be large pockets that don't reach herd immunity and will suffer local outbreaks.

            • Drowsy M. Kram

              Ta very much Andre; agreed it seems unlikely that NZ will achieve 94% or even 89% Pfizer vaccine coverage, but one can hope.

              Depressing (although not surprising) that COVID-19 has already evolved an R0 sufficient to outsmart initial strategies to achieve herd immunity via vaccination. So it's possible that herd immunity will be achieved only once COVID variants have spread through the more concentrated pockets of unvaccinated NZers, hopefully without overwhelming public health services.

              Nevertheless, those who choose to have the Pfizer vaccine will be largely protected against serious Covid-related illnesses, at least for now. which will spare our nurses and doctors. It's a no-brainer – get vaccinated people!

      • Incognito 2.1.2

        I cannot make head nor tail of your comment, sorry.

        • Forget now

          It was more in response to the linked newsroom piece than directly to your comment; Incognito. The WSJ is paywalled, so I can't see much on the needleless options for overcoming vaccine hesitancy. The potential (1 in 200,000) blood-clotting with the AstraZeneca vaccine in under-60s was mentioned in the linked piece, Pfizer and Moderna seem to increase heart inflammation risk in adolescents.

          According to data from the US Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS), there were 347 observed cases of heart inflammation in the week after the second vaccine dose in males aged 12 to 24. That compares with expectations of 12 or fewer cases for males in that age range based on US population background incidence rates, the CDC said.


          So it's not like there is no rational reasons to be cautious of vaccines (though the risk-reward balance is firmly on the side of vaccination), despite what the link said:

          Since the reasons for vaccine hesitancy are not rational – vaccines demonstrably work – they cannot be addressed by merely reiterating impressive statistics. It’s time to explore other factors making people reluctant to accept vaccines proven safe and effective.

          I just didn't like the suggested fear tactics much, so suggested alternatives. And got a bit rambly too…

          • McFlock

            Rationality isn't assessed in a vacuum. If there was no benefit to taking a drug, no matter how small the risk, it would be irrational for anyone to take it.

            In a country with half a million deaths from the disease, worrying about a few hundred non-fatal adverse events associated with the prevention is highly irrational.

            You're being chased by a serial killer. The only route of escape is a footbridge over a gorge. the bridge is new, shiny, of apparently solid construction, and millions of other people fleeing the serial killer have run over it with barely a trip or stumble.

            is it rational to demand an engineer's report on the bridge, demand to see the schematics and maintenance logs, spend hours youtube-searching bridge construction techniques, and generally express bridge-hesitancy while the serial killer is catching up to you?

          • Incognito

            Sorry, but whose “fear tactics” are you talking about?

            • Forget now

              Agar's (in your original link at comment 2.0):

              One way to coax the vaccine hesitant might be to make deaths from the coronavirus seem more frightening. Something like that worked in the public health campaign against smoking

              • Incognito


                I wasn’t too sure whether you were referring to fear tactics by anti-vaxxers.

                If only you had given the full quote of that thought:

                But I suspect another strategy is likely to be more successful in coaxing the hesitant to vaccinate.

                I’m not that keen either on fighting fire with fire and fear with fear. However, as we know, and as Agar mentioned, campaigns that confront people with the possible consequences of their bad behaviours can be quite effective in helping to change these behaviours. Agar mentioned anti-smoking campaign but equally drink-driving campaigns can be very confronting and upsetting.

                In the early stages of the pandemic, Covid-19 was portrayed by some as just another flu or even a mild one compared the Spanish Flu Pandemic in 1918. Some fobbed off the fatalities as ‘old people who would have died soon anyway’. This was used in the context of the shocking fatalities in Lombardy-Italy but also Sweden. Interestingly, the same ‘dry wood’ metaphor has been used to bolster a vaccination strategy.

                Anyway, much of Covid-19 was sometimes portrayed as mild, moderate, and almost benignly natural. The reality is that many people have suffered so-called long covid and some severe cases had their lungs destroyed to a point at which a lung transplant was the only option.


                Early outcomes after lung transplantation for severe COVID-19: a series of the first consecutive cases from four countries

                I can see some similarities with smokers dying of lung cancer except that smoking is a choice. Without necessarily pushing vaccines down people’s throats, we can at least be honest about the possible outcomes of this disease, which is still evolving, may I add.

      • Gabby 2.1.3

        The vaccine averse could be left alone until they recognise it is safe, at which point they can pay for it.

  3. Foreign Waka 3

    Do landlords put pressure on to get exemption to find a ruse not to pay?


    And this is in the news:

    Another deal for the rich at the expense of the taxpayer. When will the government officials realize that the tax they collect is not their money.


    • Jimmy 3.1

      The thing that annoys me is that private landlords have to ensure their properties are up to a certain standard (eg. heat pumps, insulation etc., often a higher standard than their own homes), whereas the government (the biggest landlord) do not.

      "In a fiery exchange in Parliament yesterday, Associate Housing Minister Poto Williams confirmed just 11,345 of a total 66,000 state houses currently meet the standards."


      • Foreign Waka 3.1.1

        The government has set the rules and should be the first to follow those showing how its done. It cannot be a case of do what I say not what I do. Absolutely.

        However the article is about tax deduction of tax on interest. No one can do this when they have a mortgage. I would argue that, If this is right for landlords, it must be right for any owner of a home paying a mortgage.

        • Sacha

          The basis for the difference is that for a landlord the interest is a business expense.

        • Jimmy

          The difference being, the landlord is producing assessible taxable income ie. the rent he's collecting, therefore, just like any business borrowing money to produce income that is taxable, they should be able to reduce the income by having the interest as a tax deduction.

          Living in your own home and paying a mortgage, produces no taxable income. ie. it is a personal expense.

          People who are not landlords, seem to get annoyed as some are actually running at a loss ie. the rent received is less than the mortgage interest (negative gearing).

          Grant has now ring fenced this (that I agree with), ie. they cannot reduce their other taxable income by the loss.

          I do not agree with the non-deductibility of interest though. If a guy borrows $500k and buys earth moving equipment and hires the equipment out, the interest is deductible. If a landlord borrows $500k for a house and rents it out, the interest is not deductible – seems wrong to me.

          • Sacha

            I recall reading that the fatal distortion happened when govt removed deductibility for pension funds compared with rental housing.

            • Nic the NZer

              I maybe saw comments putting this forward when Robertson was justifying calling the usual standard of interest deduction a distortion. Its a complete piece of fiction however, I never saw any reasonable argument being made here.

              Deducting interest is in virtually all cases of business legitimate. The main thing the NZ rule change favours is any business which can source funding without going directly to the bank, so larger businesses.

              • Sacha

                I agree about business. This was about pension fund investments – believe it may have been by Hickey or Easton or similar. No time to look today sorry.

              • Sacha

                Found one example from Hickey last year though I'm sure I read it in a few places now in more detail: https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/opinion-analysis/300175287/how-past-generations-pulled-up-the-property-ladder-on-todays-youth

                One of the most important changes was little noticed at the time, but has had a huge impact over time. Before 1989 there used to be a tax break for putting money into private pension funds. Given there was no such tax break for capital gains on property and business assets, it was deemed an unfair advantage for pension funds and removed with the aim of creating a ‘level playing field’.

                New Zealand is now almost completely on its own now in the western world as not providing any tax breaks or incentives for saving into managed or pension funds, which go on to invest in companies, bonds and other financial assets, and not taxing capital gains or wealth.

          • KJT

            Not a good analogy.

            The thing is that earth moving equipment is depreciated.

            And, if you sell it for more than the depreciated value, you are taxed on the difference.

            Land appreciates, and, mostly isn't taxed on the gain. So long as you are careful about what you "intend".

            An anomaly.

            • Jimmy

              Thats a long bow to draw. Most business assets are depreciated. Several years ago you could depreciate your residential property too. If the intent is there to produce taxable income, eg. Rent then the business can deduct the costs including interest. Now that they have said no to residential tax deductions there is an anomoly.

              • KJT

                Not at all.

                You could depreciate, buildings, not land!

                • Jimmy

                  Yes I meant buildings only in my comment. But you can no longer depreciate residential rental buildings.
                  Land has never been depreciated.

      • Incognito 3.1.2

        All private rentals must comply within 90 days of any new or renewed tenancy after 1 July 2021, with all private rentals complying by 1 July 2024. All boarding houses must comply by 1 July 2021. All houses rented by Kāinga Ora (formerly Housing New Zealand) and registered Community Housing Providers must comply by 1 July 2023.


        Link in RNZ article points to wrong article.

  4. Adrian Thornton 4

    here is an interesting piece from the very good and reliable Consortium News on the current fracturing of the Left in the US…it is well worth a read.

    "There’s been a new public fracturing of the intellectual left, typified by an essay last week from Nathan J. Robinson, editor of the small, independent, socialist magazine Current Affairs, accusing Glenn Greenwald and Matt Taibbi of bolstering the right’s arguments. He is the more reasonable face of what seems to be a new industry arguing that Greenwald is a wolf in sheep’s clothing, setting the right’s agenda for it."


    Or watch the two main players debate their positions…

    • Incognito 4.1


      I lost sight of Robinson and I used to read Current Affairs on a regular basis. Maybe time to reacquaint myself with them again.

      • Adrian Thornton 4.1.1

        No worries, I to used to read a bit of Current Affairs and Robinson myself, but have to say I have been pretty shocked on his position on this particular important issue, his nuance on any Left/Right crossover and Left/Right populism can only be described as reactionary and short sighted…and that doesn't even get into his stand on cancel culture, which he staunchly defended, only to then promptly get cancelled himself….


        • Incognito

          Those were interesting reads, thank you. I skipped the video because I prefer written material.

          I now also remember Robinson being ‘fired’ by The Guardian from his little gig.

          It was hard to reconcile that both pieces were written by the same person and seemingly about the same person but then I realised that he used Robinson as a pivot for his own narrative.

          I now also realise why Robinson and Current Affairs disappeared off my radar a while back. I might have a look to see if they warrant my time and attention.

  5. Ad 5

    President Biden appears to have figured out one big solution to Trumpism: split the hard right off and work with the centrists to get stuff done. Key players include Senators Kyrsten Sinema (Arizona Democrat), Rob Portman (Ohio Republican), Jon Tester (Montana Democrat), and Mark Warner (Virginia (democrat).


    Some highlights of what's been released so far are:

    • Roads and bridges: The plan includes $109 billion for roads, bridges and other infrastructure projects. This is $50 billion less than Biden requested initially.
    • Public transit: The plan also provides $49 billion for public transit, $66 billion for rail, $25 billion for airports and $16 billion for ports and waterways.
    • Water and power systems: $55 billion will be invested in water infrastructure and $73 billion in the nation’s power structure. Some of this money would be used to eliminate the nation's lead service lines and pipes.
    • Broadband investment: The plan would provide $65 billion to make improvements to the country's broadband system. Originally, Biden wanted $100 billion to ensure citizens have reliable, high-speed internet. However, the President lowered his ask during negotiations.
    • Electric vehicles: The bipartisan plan also includes $7.5 billion to build a network of electric vehicle chargers along highways and in rural and disadvantaged communities. The goal is to build 500,000 electric vehicle chargers. Another $7.5 billion will go toward making thousands of school and transit buses electric.


    It's not a cure for Trumpism, the package has got a bit to go, and it doesn't mean there's bipartisanship on immigration or Police or anything else. But it is Biden's promised new functioning Washington.

    • Adrian Thornton 5.1

      Don't worry Ad there is plenty of bipartisanship between Trumpism and Bidenism on immigration, The Police and funding Israel

      Kamala Harris tells migrants 'do not come' during talks in Guatemala

      Biden backs funding more police to fight crime wave


      Power Up: Biden administration approves $735 million weapons sale to Israel, raising red flags for some House Democrats


    • Molly 5.2

      Well, that is one curated view of Biden.

      Here is another: Bandaging the Corpse by Chris Hedges.

      The established ruling elites know there is a crisis. They agreed, at least temporarily, to throw money at it with the $1.9 trillion Covid-19 bill known as American Rescue Plan (ARP). But the ARP will not alter the structural inequities, either by raising the minimum wage to $15.00 an hour or imposing taxes and regulations on corporations or the billionaire class that saw its wealth increase by a staggering $1.1 trillion since the start of the pandemic.

      …This act will, at best, provide a momentary respite from the country’s death spiral, sending out one time checks of $1,400 to 280 million Americans, extending $300 weekly unemployment benefits until the end of August and distributing $3,600 through a tax credit for children under the age of 6 and $3,000 per child ages 6 to 17 starting on July 1. Much of this money will be instantly gobbled up by landlords, lenders, medical providers and credit card companies. The act does, to its credit, bail out some 1 million unionized workers poised to lose their pensions and hands $31.2 billion in aid to Native communities, some of the poorest in the nation.

      But what happens to the majority of Americans who get government support for only a few months? What are they supposed to do when the checks stop arriving at the end of the year? Will the federal government orchestrate another massive relief package? I doubt it. We will be back where we started.

      …The Biden administration — and Biden was one of the principal architects of the policies that fleeced the working class and made war on the poor — is nothing more than a brief coda in the decline and fall, set against which is China’s rising global economic and military clout.

      The loss of credibility has left the media, which serves as courtiers to the elites, largely powerless to manipulate public perceptions and public opinion. Rather, the media has divided the public into competing demographics. Media platforms target one demographic, feeding its opinions and proclivities back to it, while shrilly demonizing the demographic on the other side of the political divide. This has proved commercially successful. But it has also split the country into irreconcilable warring factions that can no longer communicate. Truth and verifiable fact have been sacrificed. Russiagate is as absurd as the belief that the presidential election was stolen from Trump. Pick your fantasy.

      • Adrian Thornton 5.2.1

        Good ol' Chris Hedges, never one to pull his punch's or get get suckered in by the centrist liberals masquerading as the Left…thanks for that link.

      • Ad 5.2.2

        To that old catastrophist, everything is just bandage.

        • Adrian Thornton

          Well I guess he now works in the US prison system so gets to see first hand the direct result of a broken US model of governance still following blindly an ideology that relentlessly destroys the planet along with the living things that inhabit it through it's insatiable need for endless, unsustainable growth…before then worked extensively as a war correspondent, saw and experienced the result of western imperialism on the ground..so I assume that maybe those things shaped his writing and positions in his writing that we read today?

          Maybe Rachel Maddow is more you cup of tea?

          A Court Ruled Rachel Maddow’s Viewers Know She’s Not Offering Facts


  6. Foreign Waka 6


    Greed and what they can get away with is obviously the only rule here. No exemptions. In fact, given that there are no tourists to speak off its NZlanders themselves who are the perpetrators – no more excuses.

  7. Byd0nz 7

    See the little Bulldog doing some agitating sailing of their little boat in Russian waters at the behest of Uncle Sam.

    Better they put their money to better use at home where it's needed to fight Covid instead of playing Paper Tiger games.

    • greywarshark 7.1

      I'm not up with the play Byd. Briefly who, what, are you referring to?

      • Byd0nz 7.1.1

        Sailing a UK Navy boat to agitate in Ukraine.

        • greywarshark

          Can't let a good ferment go off the boil eh.

          • McFlock

            Well, bojo's a dick but so is Putin.

            I found the wee dance amusing, though.

            If the Russians fire warning shots to protect their maritime territory, that's fine.
            If they fire warning shots to stop other nations entering the waters of a third party, that's generally called a "blockade" and is an act of war (which is why the US avoided the term "blockade" in the cuban Missile crisis).

            So the Russians are claiming they fired warning shots, while the British are saying that there was just some coincidental noisiness as their ship travelled through Ukrainian waters.

    • Pat 7.2

      Disturbingly wars often appear during the demise of economic systems

  8. weka 9

    Reddit banned lesbian female only subreddits (those that exclude trans women, irrespective of content), but allows groups like this to stay. This is important for understanding why gender critical feminists are doing what they are doing. This stuff from Reddit is tech bro sanctioned misogyny, and is largely accepted by the left.

  9. greywarshark 10


    The plan is part of the government's work to strengthen social cohesion, in response to the Royal Commission of inquiry into the Christchurch terror attack.

    Frankly I hate the sound of this. It is so stupid to try to control speech by suppressing it. The wrong words, even spoken in jest, could become a blackmailing tactic against people afraid to lose their jobs, shown up by our increasingly witch-hunting, puritan world. Nazi propaganda brought naive children in to their service, reporting on parents!

    Our governments are so pathetic and irrational – we know this by previous Labour opening us up to laissez faire trading which in centuries before was disastrous for principled civilisation. They should have recognised this but no, steam ahead, was the call. Mark Twain should have been a counter-call, that's where the depth of the river was constantly checked to prevent running into a new sandbank in the ever-changing river. But we had no practical, knowledgeable pilot in 1984 and we appear to have newbies now putting forward their notions as policy with no allowance for the unintended consequences which come with all change. On this theme I have put link to Don McGlashan singing Anchor Me with memories of Helen Kelly.

    And further I find that Mr Faafoi is in charge of not only Broadcasting but Justice and Immigration as well. Is he capable of looking at what we need for Just-us or is he inflated with a desire to look big in the world – making his mark etc. He is ex-journalist with BBC and TVNZ; if we got National back in, could we end up with Mike Hosking as Min. of Justice dealing out behavioural controls on all the unsatisfactory people he picks on! Oh lordie, lordie.

    Here is Anchor Me played by Don McGlashan for Helen Kelly's memory on television.

    • Ad 10.1

      +100 Grey

    • Ad 10.2

      We are a scoldingly litigious country.

      Our intelligence +defense community should just do their jobs.

    • Nordy 10.3

      I suggest you actually read the proposals and engage with them, rather than make sweeping generalisations and personal attacks to try and support your concerns.

      • greywarshark 10.3.1

        I suggest Nordy you think about whether it is an appropriate proposal to bring in and about the lead politician involved. Why is it that citizens are constantly having to fight legislation that is poorly thought out and which once in will have huge ramifications? I suggest that you give us a break by not supporting such proposals. It wears out thinking citizens to have to monitor supposed intelligent well-meaning pollies.

        • Incognito

          Everybody is free to make a submission and nobody should be discouraged from exercising their democratic right to make a submission. I do hope that many will make submission and I don’t expect for one second that I’d agree with all of them, if I were to see and read them all, which is extremely unlikely. A proposal such as this needs input and feedback from many quarters. Nobody has a monopoly on wisdom (an oxymoron) and/or The Truth. This site values and encourages robust debate, not the exclusion of others and their opinions.

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