Open mike 26/07/2023

Written By: notices and features - Date published: 6:00 am, July 26th, 2023 - 140 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

140 comments on “Open mike 26/07/2023 ”

Comments are now closed

pat 1

26 July 2023 at 7:42 am

"Parker took the opportunity to step aside from that role when cabinet was reshuffled in the wake of Kiri Allan's arrest. He later told reporters that holding the revenue position was untenable."

https://www.interest.co.nz/public-policy/123211/national-party-says-chaotic-government-getting-more-divided-all-time-latest
- Drowsy M. Kram 1.1
  
  26 July 2023 at 8:21 am
  
  Some interesting comments under that Interest.co.nz opinion piece:
  
  – it’s not that the socialists love the poor, it’s their hatred of the rich that drives them.
  
  Jesus wept. What drives capitalists – their 'concerns' about poverty and the planet?
  
  What Jesus said about capitalism [9 April 2012]
  This doesn't mean Christ accepted poverty as an inevitable characteristic of the economy, or part of the divine plan. Rather, he says, the divine vision is that poverty be abolished, but as long as it persists, God and God's people must always take the side of the poor – and be among them.
  
  Hmm, what would that lovely Mr Luxon say; he of the seven properties?
  
  He said he continued to care about the Labour cause, describing himself as “an agent for change, for progressive change”.
  
  https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/132611615/david-parker-untenable-to-remain-revenue-minister-after-wealth-tax-rejection
  - Ad 1.1.1
    
    26 July 2023 at 10:44 am
    
    Luxon is Supply Side Jesus.
    
    https://www.beliefnet.com/news/2003/09/the-gospel-of-supply-side-jesus.aspx
    - Drowsy M. Kram 1.1.1.1
      
      26 July 2023 at 2:10 pm
      
      Thanks Ad, very good – "a supply side Jesus pioneer" + "keep our swords legal"
- pat 1.2
  
  26 July 2023 at 6:38 pm
  
  Why am I unsurprised that the substance of the post remains uncommented upon.
- Nigel Haworth 1.3
  
  26 July 2023 at 8:43 pm
  
  It is a sad moment when a principled stand on the fundamental platform for a fairer society is described by a competent journalist as petulant. Such was the gist of Claire Trevett’s recent Herald piece on David Parker’s exit from the Taxation portfolio. The argument that one must stay silent on fundamental matters to sustain party unity is simply wrong. I understand well why Mr Parker found his position to be untenable in the face of a “Captain’s Call”, a modern initiative, which the Labour Party should, I believe, eschew.
  
  The support for significant taxation reform is now shared across a spectrum from Piketty to Hickey and should be front and centre in Labour’s policy commitments. Delay on this front makes the task harder in the future.
  - Drowsy M. Kram 1.3.1
    
    26 July 2023 at 9:43 pm
    
    The support for significant taxation reform is now shared across a spectrum from Piketty to Hickey and should be front and centre in Labour’s policy commitments. Delay on this front makes the task harder in the future.
Dennis Frank 2

26 July 2023 at 8:22 am

Momentous development in constitutional law:

The Israeli parliament on Monday passed a law stripping the Supreme Court of its power to block government decisions, the first part of a planned judicial overhaul that has sharply divided Israeli society and drawn fierce criticism from the White House.

The controversial bill passed by a vote of 64-0 in the Knesset. All members of the governing coalition voted in favor the bill, while all opposition lawmakers walked out of the chamber as the vote was taking place.

Former Israeli Prime Minister Yair Lapid said he would file a petition with the Supreme Court on Tuesday to block the law and has urged the military reservists not to refuse to serve until the court delivers its ruling.

The so-called reasonableness law takes away the Supreme Court’s power to block government decisions by declaring them unreasonable. Its passing could trigger a constitutional crisis – if the court declares the law itself is unreasonable.

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/07/24/middleeast/israel-supreme-court-power-stripped-intl/index.html

In a democracy, who holds supreme power? Executive or judiciary? The theory of popular sovereignty holds that the people are supreme, therefore any govt they vote in exercises ultimate power. The theory of the establishment is that constitutional tradition prevails over popular cowboy govts. The Israeli PM is a popular cowboy trying it on. Principled folk would argue he has a mandate to do so. So, the people or the judges?
- Ad 2.1
  
  26 July 2023 at 9:42 am
  
  A quite unremarkable reform that makes it much closer to New Zealand's own system.
  
  No issue.
  - AB 2.1.1
    
    26 July 2023 at 10:46 am
    
    One has to consider both the powers of the courts and the way in which the judiciary are appointed. The US has the worst of both worlds in terms of the Supreme Court – politically-appointed judges and the power to block legislation. The sanest combination is probably quite limited powers to block legislation and independently-appointed judiciary. I don't know anything about the Israeli Court System so don't know if Netenyahu's changes are in this direction or away from it. No doubt much of the alarm is caused not by the precise constitutional nature of the change, but about who is initiating it and whether it is just the opening gambit.
  - SPC 2.1.2
    
    26 July 2023 at 12:34 pm
    
    The scale and persistence of the protests must indicate the lefties there are irrational, I suppose.
    
    It's just a pity that the size of the leftie vote in Israel is no longer on the scale of the protests. Labour is the smallest party in their Knesset with just 4 seats, just above the 3% threshhold. And Meretz is gone. They now have to merge, or risk being seen as vote wasters.
    
    The wider ME sees it as the beginning of the end of the Israeli state. It's certainly the end of the culture which built the homeland state and defended it.
    
    This is beyond the cultural war in the USA. This is their Weimar Republic on the precipice moment.
  - Craig H 2.1.3
    
    26 July 2023 at 2:57 pm
    
    If there is to be supreme law (like a constitution) and ordinary law, the question arises of what to do when the legislature passes ordinary laws which contradict supreme law, particularly if it is a genuinely unintended consequence.
    
    Obviously that doesn't have to be resolved by the judiciary, but that has become a traditional approach. Could use the NZ approach of referring conflicts back to the legislature to resolve, but if for some reason, there is no resolution, it does call into question the supremacy of a constitution.
Adrian Thornton 3

26 July 2023 at 8:22 am

AAhh Joe Biden, possibly the most corrupt POTUS in our life time….this guy has no shame…

Gallery Sold Hunter Biden’s Art to Major Dem Donor Appointed to Special Commission by President Biden

"The New York art gallery representing Hunter Biden’s exorbitantly expensive painting collection sold his artwork to a Democratic-donor socialite whom President Biden appointed to a special U.S. commission of international significance.

Despite the assurance of the Biden administration that the president’s son, for ethical reasons, would be left in dark about the identity of his buyers, Hunter later discovered the identities of two of them, sources told Business Insider. One of those two clients received a presidential privilege in the form of a commission placement.

The buyer in question was California investor and philanthropist Elizabeth Hirsh Naftali, who contributed $13,414 to the Biden campaign and $29,700 to the Democratic National Campaign Committee this year, Insider reported.

Biden announced Hirsh Naftali’s appointment to the Commission for the Preservation of America’s Heritage Abroad in July 2022 — eight months after Hunter’s art debuted at the gallery"
https://www.nationalreview.com/news/hunter-biden-gallery-sold-art-to-dem-donor-appointed-to-special-commission-by-president-biden/

…and that is just the tip of the iceberg in the USA, of course we all know about the Biden's many and varied super dodgy 'business' dealings in the Ukraine….nothing tosee here folks…well according to RNZ,who of course rarely cover any of this, but of course cover every stupid thing about Trump, like he is somehow any worse than Biden…jeez give me a break!…they are both just stinking piles of shit.

Though I guess Trump's instinct seems to be to keep the US within it's own boarders, which would make the World a safer place for most of the rest of the World, especially for those in the most of the Middle East, most of Asia, most of South America, better they keep the hell out of Europe too as it turns out, so I guess for that one thing alone he could be marginally better…
…if having a more peacful world is your thing that is, which I know isn’t really the bag of the new Liberal imperialist class..but who cares what they think right?
- mickysavage 3.1
  
  26 July 2023 at 8:58 am
  
  You should find out what Putin has done.
  - Francesca 3.1.1
    
    26 July 2023 at 9:43 am
    
    but but…whatboutism!
  - Sabine 3.1.2
    
    26 July 2023 at 11:52 am
    
    Putin has children that sell shitty art for nigh on a million dollar to rich donors? got any links to bolster that claim?
  - Adrian Thornton 3.1.3
    
    26 July 2023 at 6:13 pm
    
    But am not discussing Putin here, I am discussing Biden…we get to hear all the bad things about Putin (and Trump) quite regularly enough on western MSM don't you think?
    
    To bad our media seems to believe it is in the business of creating, molding and driving news narratives, rather than just reporting on them and letting the public make up it's on mind…but then it turns out that even people who should react to this fact with dismay…seem to be quite okay with it…and that my friend, is the bit I just don't understand.
- ianmac 3.2
  
  26 July 2023 at 9:06 am
  
  Adrian is now the spokesman for the Maga loonies. After 5 years of investigation by Trump appointed investigators there has not one bit of evidence found to incriminate Joe Biden. The two items Hunter has been charged with after those 5 years is a late IRD tax payment which he has since paid and owning a gun that he wasn't entitled to own.
  
  The rest is wild conspiracy Maga rubbish Adrian and you might be wise to avoid any rabbit holes. They trip you up.
  - Blazer 3.2.1
    
    26 July 2023 at 9:20 am
    
    So Joe's definately not the…BIG GUY!!
    - ianmac 3.2.1.1
      
      26 July 2023 at 9:26 am
      
      Even if Joe was the "Big Guy" that is not evidence of malfeasance.
    - Peter 3.2.1.2
      
      26 July 2023 at 10:47 am
      
      I have it on good authority, (numerous YouTube interviews with people outside Trump rallies and attending JFK Jr Lives rallies), that Joe is not the President.
      
      I also have it on similarly good authority that the Biden's are a 'crime family' guilty of all sorts of crimes, financial, political, sexual, moral and other stuff so unimaginable you have to make it up.
      
      The answer to any and all dilemmas facing the US is that the most ethical, moral, intellectual, honest, humble, compassionate, altruistic family in US history should be given total reign in that land. Arise King Donald.
      
      Really though, as for them 'both being just stinking piles of shit' because one is, jeez, give us a break.
      - ianmac 3.2.1.2.1
        
        26 July 2023 at 11:23 am
        
        USA is claimed to be the "greatest democracy" and "leaders of the world" yet sunken into a swamp of fantasy. Worrying to hear a NZF candidate claiming "sexualisation of schoolkids" and "Wokeism " in NZ schools with Winston supporting it on Morning Report.
        
        Visubversa 3.2.1.2.1.1
        
        26 July 2023 at 12:53 pm
        
        You might like to have a look at the RSE curriculum and what is being taught in our schools.
        
        "Hutt Valley High’s lessons are based in gender identity theory, an unscientific belief system that seeks to redefine boys and girls. Despite the fact that New Zealand parents are overwhelmingly opposed to gender identity theory, our Ministry of Education has been attempting to introduce these types of lessons across New Zealand. At Hutt Valley High, they have succeeded.
        
        The underlying messages sent by Hutt Valley High’s lessons are that:
        
        Your biological sex was arbitrarily assigned to you, and can be changed.
        
        Whether you are ‘really’ male or female depends on your feelings about gender roles, and is independent of your biology.
        
        Girls who don’t feel comfortable with the stereotypical female gender role should consider medical gender transition (as should boys who don’t feel comfortable with male stereotypes).
        
        Disagreeing with any of these beliefs is unacceptable (i.e. ‘transphobic’).
        
        These messages are false and potentially harmful. Hutt Valley High’s lessons risk nudging vulnerable adolescents into a descent into lifelong medical dependency."
        
        https://plainsight.nz/what-hutt-valley-high-school-is-teaching-kids-about-sex/?fbclid=IwAR0jpIpsxSjtzHF0X9HamVigmykZm8modZrfcztROrpnL3xfw20lwNh0bbA
        
        Anker 3.2.1.2.1.2
        
        26 July 2023 at 1:55 pm
        
        The claim is true. I am glad a politcal candidate is speaking up
        
        Roy Cartland …
        
        26 July 2023 at 4:10 pm
        
        With you there (possibly for the first time, but with you all the same).
      - Phillip ure 3.2.1.2.2
        
        26 July 2023 at 11:31 am
        
        Just a trump corruption reminder..
        
        Trump built skyscrapers in manhattan in the 70's …using undocumented labour ..
        
        Now ..there are two industries that the mafia controlled/profited from…the garbage industry…and the construction industry..
        
        The teamsters union were/are the public face of the mafia..
        
        And there is no way trump could have got away with that…unless he was very well connected ..
        
        Then he built casinos for them to launder their money in..
        
        Trump is 'the most corrupt potus' ..and by a country mile…
        
        And I don't see another coming anywhere near him..
        
        And this is why trump must face the legal consequences from his actions…
        
        If only to protect american democracy .
        
        So that at sometime in the future someone smarter than the orange clown.. doesn't get the chance to do a trump…
        
        Adrian Thornton 3.2.1.2.2.1
        
        26 July 2023 at 6:02 pm
        
        "And this is why trump must face the legal consequences from his actions…
        
        If only to protect american democracy"
        
        You can't really be that naive…can you?
        
        Phillip ure …
        
        27 July 2023 at 11:14 am
        
        My noting of the need for this check to be installed…is not a wholesale endorsement of the american political system..
        
        It is politically agnostic…
        
        And I am noting the imperative that must be driving those pushing for trump to be held to account..
        
        Understand now..?…or do you need more explanation..
        
        Or are you just an apologist for trump..?
- Ad 3.3
  
  26 July 2023 at 9:42 am
  
  What's the corrupt bit?
  - ianmac 3.3.1
    
    26 July 2023 at 11:23 am
    
    Dunno Ad.
- tWiggle 3.4
  
  26 July 2023 at 10:30 am
  
  Similar US isolationist ideas prevailed in the late 1930's and initial stages of WW2. How did that turn out for them?
  - Adrian Thornton 3.4.1
    
    26 July 2023 at 11:18 am
    
    Are you actually seriously equating this moment in history with the Nazi invasion of Europe and Russia?….holy crap buddy, you must have drunk even more of the Cool Aid than most of the new Liberal pro war crew around these parts….and that really is saying something!
- SPC 3.5
  
  26 July 2023 at 12:18 pm
  
  The first article merely showed the White House was concerned about the ethics of the situation.
  
  And the later link, did not show any prior purchase before the appointment, but did note the position gained was an unpaid one.
  - Adrian Thornton 3.5.1
    
    26 July 2023 at 1:42 pm
    
    Like so much that Joe Biden has anything to do with, it looks and smells very much like something really dodgy…even the Washington Post is going to cut Biden free soon it seems..
    
    Yet we’re still left with a motley collection of odd and unsavory figures sending a lot of money through a lot of companies to a lot of members of the Biden family, with little explanation why. Comer contends that bank records confirm more than $10 million in payments, run through at least 20 businesses, mostly limited liability companies, to the president’s son Hunter Biden; the president’s brother, James Biden; James’s wife, Sara Jones Biden; Hallie Biden (widow of Joe Biden’s son Beau, who died in 2015); Hunter’s ex-wife, Kathleen Buhle; Hunter’s current wife, Melissa Cohen; and, as Comer noted, “three children of the president’s son and the president’s brother.”
    
    Just what goods or services did all those Biden family members provide to those companies?"
    
    https://www.mediaite.com/opinion/washington-post-column-drops-hammer-on-biden-family-receiving-foreign-millions-maybe-its-entirely-coincidental/
    
    …pretty sure most US Liberal press will follow suit before long, not only is the man obviously suffering seriously from age related age issues that even the most staunchest Biden supporter can't possibly ignore, he has also obviously been involved in some really dodgy as fuck business dealings with various foreign entities…the guy is damaged good, shit he can't even stay with Trump in the election polls for 2024…or even DeSantis in some polls FFS….
    https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/latest_polls/2024/
    
    But you lot just keep on telling yourself that I am a Trump troll and Putin puppet if that keeps the lid on (for a little longer) the giant bucket of fermenting bullshit you guys have been sitting on and feeding for so long……but hey, you go right ahead a believe whatever makes you happy.
    - SPC 3.5.1.1
      
      26 July 2023 at 1:50 pm
      
      So we, those others not in lockstep, are all of one category of humanity for you to quickly sum up?
      
      Do you want to be taken seriously, or not?
    - Phillip ure 3.5.1.2
      
      27 July 2023 at 11:20 am
      
      If it walks like a 'trump troll/putin puppet'..
      
      And if it talks like a 'trump troll/putin puppet'..
      
      It probably is a 'trump/putin puppet'..eh..?..
Dennis Frank 4

26 July 2023 at 8:28 am

A victory for the Greens:

On Tuesday evening, less than two weeks after the court ruling, Shaw announced Cabinet had made a decision to almost entirely align with the commission's advice going forward.

"Today is an important step forward in helping us to meet our domestic and international climate targets. The new settings put us in lock step with advice provided by the Climate Change Commission in 2022 and 2023," he said. Cost-of-living impacts were expected to be minimal – a $10 rise in the price of carbon would only add $1.67 to the average household's weekly budget.

https://www.newsroom.co.nz/surprise-decision-restores-climate-commissions-legitimacy

Labour seems to have done a positional shift here. I'd welcome views from Labour insiders re any cabinet infighting that produced this shift!
tWiggle 5

26 July 2023 at 8:32 am

Kate Hannah speaks out about on-line silencing by targetted gender-based violence on the Spinoff.

She talks about her own experience, as founder of the Disibformation Project, and mentions a new UN report on gendered violence, which summarises the outcomes of the negative on-line attacks:

"At a societal level, targetted female and gender-based violence is a threat to open, peaceful, democratic societies. Evidence shows that gendered disinformation and targeted hate campaigns form narratives that go beyond attacks on individual women and LGBTQIA+ people, to attacking their rights more broadly, often with an end goal of polarising and destabilising democratic societies.

It can erode individual and collective rights to participate in shared civic spaces and discourage women from being involved in public life or cause them to self-censor.

It can also increase tensions that lead to violent conflict, with some arguing that online threats against women in public roles should be included as a gender-sensitive early warning indicator for conflict.

There is also a growing body of research showing the specific security threat posed by individuals who perpetrate acts of targeted violence, many of whom display concerning online misogynistic behaviour, domestic violence, or threatening online communication."
- Dennis Frank 5.1
  
  26 July 2023 at 8:48 am
  
  The reason the left succumbed to this shit lies in the inertial effect of political psychology: minority rights. The focus in the 1970s was on achievement of recognition of those, then thro the '80s they were integrated via consensual acceptance.
  
  Identity politics morphed this via activist narcissism. Personal subjective views got more media play than shared views built on an ethical basis as common ground.
  
  Consequently the past decade has featured the alphabet soup tribe becoming toxic in a flow of media sensations. The only interesting dimension of the trend is the emergence of collective narcissism as a feature of small minority groups.
  
  Harm done to victims by trendy lefty lynch mobs is indeed a worthy focus for media and all. A corrective remedial force must emerge to deal with the sociopaths.
  - Drowsy M. Kram 5.1.1
    
    26 July 2023 at 9:43 am
    
    "Narcissism" you say (twice) – tribal toxicity – trendy lefty lynch mob sociopaths!
    And something about "alphabet soup"
    - Dennis Frank 5.1.1.1
      
      26 July 2023 at 10:02 am
      
      You should try Incognito's word-salad framing. Works just as well to evade the point. And I wouldn't assume left-wingers are incapable of learning the difference between individual and group narcissism – the analytical trend into discussing that has been percolating along nicely in recent years. Leftists tend to be partial to such academic fashion trends…
      - tWiggle 5.1.1.1.1
        
        26 July 2023 at 10:39 am
        
        Gee, DF, almost like rights should not be universal, but only for the comfy majority. That comfy majority may be buddhist against muslim in Myanmar, hindu against any other religion in India, white against people of colour and sunni against shia (and vv) in many places.
        
        Anywhere that fear is riled up by cynical political actors to gain and maintain power.
        
        weka 5.1.1.1.1.1
        
        26 July 2023 at 10:56 am
        
        Speaking of universal rights, do you believe that the exceptions in the Human Rights Act that enable female-only spaces and services (think Rape Crisis or sport or women's changing rooms at work) should be retained or removed so that TW can have access to those female only things?
        
        https://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1993/0082/latest/whole.html#DLM304212
        
        tWiggle …
        
        26 July 2023 at 12:25 pm
        
        https://gal-dem.com/transphobia-in-sexual-violence-services/
        
        In the UK, trans women have used, and volunteered for, rape-crisis and domestic violence organisations. This 2021 article shows the big divide within the UK sector, where on-the-ground non-trans workers disagree with trans-exclusionary policy brought in by management, but fear for their jobs. And that is at a time when the 2010 UK rights legislation clearly prohibits gender-based discrimination.
        
        I disgree with the GC trans exclusionary position held by some here at TS, especially because it has eroded the existing services trans women have had, and used without issue, particularly in the UK and US.
        
        That's taking things away from people. It shows a particularly damaging belief that rights for minority groups somehow take away rights from the majority (Dennis Frank's denounciation of 'identity politics'). Where, instead, I know through changes in my own lifetime, that inclusivity action, by expansion of rights and by equity initiatives, makes our society more diverse and interesting, and better to belong in.
        
        Real-world evidence validates that access of trans women to gendered spaces and services in the last decades has not caused problems from the 100,000 or so trans women in the UK, and the 11,000 trans women in NZ. And self-id in countries like Brazil and Ireland, covering a billion or so people, has not caused floods of penises into bathrooms. Your point about universal rights and 'women-only' spaces is what?
      - SPC 5.1.1.1.2
        
        26 July 2023 at 11:23 am
        
        There will always be people manipulated into the "fashions" of the time.
        
        For example NOW’s (National Organisation of Woman – USA) dedication to the equal rights of the feminine gender/women, now incorporates those who are transgender.
        
        And so there are now, women's organisations built around, not doing so.
        
        And predictably there are LGB groups that exclude the transgender and seem to be abandoning the word queer while doing so. All because the established LGBQ added the T.
        
        The word narcissism is one commonly thrown around, to infer some particular knowledge of the psychopathy of others.
        
        This is all the sign, of a certain cultivation of the evolved civilisation sentience, that such matters gain significance. As with the Weimar Republic. Before the retreat back to the old certainties of atavism, or that old time religion, kingdom come. So much washing off of guilt to allow a return to being pure and righteous.
        
        A bit like confession of addiction, to redeem the collective self. As Hollywood Babylon did with the adoption of a Hays Code. And the SEC did after the excesses of Wall Street.
        
        SPC 5.1.1.1.2.1
        
        26 July 2023 at 11:32 am
        
        Can someone explain why this post could not be further edited within the 10 minutes?
        
        I’ll continue.
        
        Yet ultimately it is the concept of market forces natural law “order out of chaos”, a god of mammon that humanity is subject to, so that there is a return to innocent acceptance of over-rule – rather than the knowledge/guilt of human dominion.
        
        The great joke on joe public is that the elites manipulate the market all the time to take advantage of it, to grow their own wealth.
        
        It’s all propaganda designed to diminish the power of voters, so elites can retain privilege.
        
        Of course the people are given something to vote against, hate on, so their consent can be seen to be made.
  - Anker 5.1.2
    
    26 July 2023 at 1:58 pm
    
    Mostly agree DF
    - Dennis Frank 5.1.2.1
      
      26 July 2023 at 2:28 pm
      
      Cool. The interesting thing about political commentary is the inter-generational context. Folks get socially conditioned to a norm, then the co-construction of social reality shifts into consolidating a different norm. So if there's areas of similar views across generations, there's also significant differences.
      
      Those differences can be experienced as a barrier or divide, yet also explored for potential to articulate further common ground by resolving the differences. As a centrist within the Greens I had to establish common ground with the leftists & thereby learnt the art of consensus-building via practical politics.
      
      The notion of intersectionality is what differentiates minority politics nowadays from that era of 30 years back. The sociopolitical system has gotten more complex. We just had the red-green & blue-green dimension plus the pale Green & deep Green dimension – along with the leftist/centrist divide that caused the Values Party schism in the '70s and has persisted since then.
- roblogic 5.2
  
  26 July 2023 at 9:01 am
  
  Who watches the watchers?
  
  Who defines what is hate speech, disinformation, propaganda?
  
  Who should be the moral arbiters of public discourse?
  
  Who elected Kate Hannah?
  
  It's a bit rich for her to complain about misogyny in the darker corners of the internet when the "young NZer of the Year" and a bunch of left wing activists openly assaulted women in Albert Park earlier this year and cancelled their right to speak in public. And a few days ago the MSM colluded again to suppress a pretty mild ad from Family First stating basic biological reality.
  
  Disinformation indeed.
  
  (stating it plainly: IMO the Disinfo Project has morphed into a propaganda attack on free speech and an organ of elite narratives – especially focussed on othering dissidents and whistleblowers – the antithesis of open democratic discourse & the fourth estate’s duty to hold the powerful to account)
  - Drowsy M. Kram 5.2.1
    
    26 July 2023 at 9:55 am
    
    Imho it's a bit rich to assert that "the young NZer of the Year" assaulted women in Albert Park earlier this year – "Disinformation indeed"?
    - roblogic 5.2.1.1
      
      26 July 2023 at 10:28 am
      
      Nice misinterpretation there. I think you missed the point
      
      https://democracyproject.nz/2023/04/12/bryce-edwards-the-need-to-take-disinformation-seriously/
      
      To clarify: Lal endorsed the misogynistic Albert Park violence and subsequent cover-up.
      - SPC 5.2.1.1.1
        
        26 July 2023 at 11:20 am
        
        No, you accused a particular person of assaulting others at an event.
        
        This is either true, or not true.
        
        roblogic 5.2.1.1.1.1
        
        26 July 2023 at 11:27 am
        
        Lal was a part of the whole debacle. AFAIK "they" did not directly assault anyone. Personally I am more concerned about the violence and coverups than litigating one sentence I wrote
        
        SPC …
        
        26 July 2023 at 11:48 am
        
        To clarify: Lal endorsed the misogynistic Albert Park violence and subsequent cover-up.
        
        Your link provides no supporting evidence for either assertion.
        
        roblogic …
        
        26 July 2023 at 12:22 pm
        
        ignoring & justifying violence against women is not a great look mate.
        
        SPC …
        
        26 July 2023 at 12:37 pm
        
        Alex Penk and Brendon fn O'Neil of the Spectator. Really.
        
        Relevance to your claims about …
        
        weka …
        
        26 July 2023 at 7:17 pm
        
        You said,
        
        To clarify: Lal endorsed the misogynistic Albert Park violence and subsequent cover-up.
        
        None of the links you have provided support this assertion. Because you are making a specific claim about a public figure, you have to be able to back that up now.
        
        When you do, please provide the quote as well as the link.
        
        roblogic …
        
        27 July 2023 at 8:26 am
        
        Damien Grant: We're having a free speech moment. It isn't going well | Stuff.co.nz
        
        … why did Posie Parker require protection – is because Hill, Minister Wood, O’Brien, Lal and even Justice Gendall had all contributed to an environment where the use of violence was not only being legitimised, but had become a moral necessity.
        
        Why would you want to cancel Shaneel Lal? – Plain Sight – Dane Giraud
        
        Lal, and the now former Pride director Max Tweedie, drove the smear campaign against both women’s rights campaigner Posie Parker and local feminists ahead of her ill-fated March visit. After an attempt to deny her entry into the country was rejected, the pair shifted their focus to organising a crowd to chase women out of a public park. A few women were violently assaulted. The message sent was clear – oppose us, and we will physically hurt you.
        
        Lal's tweets about "Terfs" are inflammatory and celebrate the Albert Park mob.
        
        "Good riddance Nazi TERF"
        
        "Yes #fuckallterfs"
        
        "A lipsticks for TERFs" (accompanied by a picture of superglue)
        
        source: Bully fronts anti-bullying campaign – by Garwhoungle (substack.com)
        
        weka []
        
        27 July 2023 at 10:02 am
        
        thank-you. And thanks for just going and doing that instead of arguing about it or not doing it, this mod is very grateful.
        
        You said,
        
        It’s a bit rich for her to complain about misogyny in the darker corners of the internet when the “young NZer of the Year” and a bunch of left wing activists openly assaulted women in Albert Park earlier this year and cancelled their right to speak in public.
        
        I’m not aware that Lal assaulted anyone. I agree he is partially responsible for the set up for the violence that happened, and that’s different from assaulting people.
        
        The truth is sufficient, we don’t have to embellish it. I’m going to make a mod statement soon, because all sides at the moment are making exaggerated declaratory statements without evidence and it has to stop. It’s a significant drain on my moderator time, and it also drags TS commentariat into the culture war instead of upholding robust debate.
        
        SPC …
        
        27 July 2023 at 1:33 pm
        
        @roblogic
        
        Let's hope your own smear campaign against Lal (reinforcement of the message of Grant et al) does not incite any violence, given you think there is correlation between having a position and what others do.
        
        weka []
        
        27 July 2023 at 2:17 pm
        
        Lal used his considerable media reach to preach terf=nazi bigot. It wasn’t simply a position, it was activism and propaganda.
        
        Both sides need to calm the fuck down. I have some hope that people like rob will. I have no sense that people like Lal will until they get slapped down. The response from Spark was a good public embarrassment for him, I doubt that he will have learned much but in time the tide will shift on the kind of extreme position he takes, because of the kinds of actions it leads to.
        
        roblogic …
        
        27 July 2023 at 2:05 pm
        
        I will keep that in mind for the next time I am explicitly inciting a riot, given my massive platform and public profile.
        
        SPC …
        
        27 July 2023 at 3:49 pm
        
        the use of violence was not only being legitimised, but had become a moral necessity.
        
        The crowd seemed intent on making noise and kettling the protest, little more.
        
        the pair shifted their focus to organising a crowd to chase women out of a public park. A few women were violently assaulted. The message sent was clear – oppose us, and we will physically hurt you.
        
        They were was no attempt to chase anyone out, nor any attempt to organise any attack (no one came armed) and what incidents there were were inter-personal apart from some jostling of the K-J K's protection team on the way out.
        
        Any smears seem to have been of a two way street.
  - Anker 5.2.2
    
    26 July 2023 at 2:00 pm
    
    100% Roblogic
- Visubversa 5.3
  
  26 July 2023 at 9:40 am
  
  She makes the mistake of thinking that there is something called LGBTQA++++ and that their interests are all the same. In reality, the L, G and B are same sex attracted and everything south of there is straight.
  
  Our rights as same sex attracted people rest on the idea that same-sex attraction is real and normal and should be afforded the same rights and respect as heterosexuality. That is all we want – the same rights as straight people.
  - Dennis Frank 5.3.1
    
    26 July 2023 at 10:12 am
    
    Good comment. Analytical flair in the culture wars really ought to balance a differential tendency with an integral tendency otherwise it remains inherently partial. Since culture arises from commonality, human groups can't survive easily without doing both concurrently. In geopolitics, the splitter syndrome wears the technical term balkanisation.
    
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkanization
    
    I suspect culture wars aren't much fun for most participants (harm done) but are entertaining for splitters. When minority group leaders are splitters rather than consensus builders, they produce toxicity.
  - tWiggle 5.3.2
    
    26 July 2023 at 11:08 am
    
    Funny that both Visubversa and roblogic are happy to discount gender-based online calls for violence because of the person making that message.
    
    If you attack people and groups right to exist, not their ideas, then that is open discrimination. I detest Posie Parker because of her manipulative provacateur actions and some extreme violent comments she made against trans people, and has never apopogised for. I don't call for her annihilation (as she threatens women who disagree with her). I don't threaten her with violence, I challenge her disgusting views.
    
    And baby with bathwater. Hannah opposes violent anti-gender online speech in her commentary, which in number primarily attacks women. By trying to discount that message because of the messenger, VS and RL (and now others here) expose their discrimination for us to see. Baby with bathwater.
    - weka 5.3.2.1
      
      26 July 2023 at 11:19 am
      
      If you attack people and groups right to exist, not their ideas, then that is open discrimination.
      
      This is a good point. It's why I focus on gender identity ideology and its impacts on women rather than focussing on trans people.
      
      Funny that both Visubversa and roblogic are happy to discount gender-based online calls for violence because of the person making that message.
      
      That's not it though. The disagreement isn't because it's Hannah making it, it's because the DIP is so partisan and not honest about that.
      
      For instance, Visubversa's critique is that the DIP using LGBTQI+ framing creates significant problems for homosexual people. It's the ideas within LGBTQI+ that push the problems. We've not been allowed to talk about that freely thanks to No Debate, and now we have a progressive org enforcing homophobic ideology. That's all legit critique.
      
      Likewise, rob is pointing to the ideological positioning of the DIP.
      
      I'm all for not focussing on Hannah and the DIP and talking about the ideology, but in the absence of that conversation, there will be push back against orgs and people who are actively suppressing debate and refusing to engage with critique of their positions. The only way left to respond to that is to push harder.
      - arkie 5.3.2.1.1
        
        26 July 2023 at 12:26 pm
        
        enforcing homophobic ideology
        
        This is a ridiculous claim. It's equivalent to the argument that prioritising Māori and Pasifika to improve inequitable health outcomes is racist.
        
        The bandying about of the 'ideology' term ignores that those who are endlessly claiming there is 'No Debate' are also followers of an ideology, one that seeks to exclude trans people, supported by such 'progressive' organisations as Family First.
        
        weka 5.3.2.1.1.1
        
        26 July 2023 at 12:37 pm
        
        as an example, there are lesbians being pressured to like girl dick. Please explain to me how this is not homophobic?
        
        arkie …
        
        26 July 2023 at 12:49 pm
        
        The Disinformation Project is 'pressuring lesbians to like girl dick'? That is your claim?
        
        now we have a progressive org enforcing homophobic ideology
        
        Even if I accept your framing of an uncited example, no one is or is even capable of forcing anyone to be attracted to anyone else. That said, plenty of trans people aren't straight, being trans isn't a sexuality. Just like plenty of bisexuals are in straight relationships but are still part of the community.
        
        weka …
        
        26 July 2023 at 1:17 pm
        
        The Disinformation Project is 'pressuring lesbians to like girl dick'? That is your claim?
        
        No, they have an ideological position which supports the subculture that is shifting the definition of homosexuality from same sex attracted to same gender attracted.
        
        You said you wanted to talk about ideas, that's what I'm doing. I'm talking about those ideas play out in RL with unintended consequences. Have you heard about the cotton ceiling?
        
        no one is or is even capable of forcing anyone to be attracted to anyone else.
        
        Of course. They can try though, which is why we have conversion therapy legislation.
        
        I will ask you again, how is pressuring lesbians to like girl dick not homophobic?
        
        arkie …
        
        26 July 2023 at 2:30 pm
        
        how is pressuring lesbians to like girl dick not homophobic?
        
        This is a textbook leading question but I will answer it however your ideological position will prevent you from accepting the answers:
        
        No one is pressuring anyone to like anyone
        
        Some trans women are lesbians
        
        https://genderminorities.com/2021/06/06/rainbow-experiences-research/
        
        Visubversa …
        
        26 July 2023 at 3:30 pm
        
        No lesbian has – or ever has had, a penis. They can call themselves a "lesbian" until the end of time but nobody can be forced to believe them. Your "evidence" has the language of gender ideology and is therefore reflective of a homophobic cult.
        
        arkie …
        
        26 July 2023 at 3:38 pm
        
        And you have no evidence but your own exclusionary ideology. Your argument is circular, your antipathy to the existence of people different from you is transphobic. You can hold these beliefs but they do not reflect the views of the majority of people.
        
        weka 5.3.2.1.1.2
        
        26 July 2023 at 12:40 pm
        
        The bandying about of the 'ideology' term ignores that those who are endlessly claiming there is 'No Debate' are also followers of an ideology, one that seeks to exclude trans people, supported by such 'progressive' organisations as Family First.
        
        I go on about No Debate, but my ideology is that of gender critical feminism, not RW gender conservatism. Do you know what the difference is?
        
        It says much that you are unaware of the strong left wing GC movement, and all the work it is doing to push back against the conservatives positions on gender.
        
        arkie …
        
        26 July 2023 at 12:53 pm
        
        Why do you insist on making claims about what I am aware of?
        
        I mentioned Family First as they were cited by RL. I note that you haven’t pushed back on that.
        
        weka …
        
        26 July 2023 at 1:11 pm
        
        Why do you insist on making claims about what I am aware of?
        
        Because it's preferable to saying that you appear to be intentionally misleading the debate.
        
        Do you know what the difference is between conservative positions and left wing GC ones?
        
        weka …
        
        26 July 2023 at 1:13 pm
        
        I mentioned Family First as they were cited by RL. I note that you haven’t pushed back on that.
        
        Push back on what? He pointed to the problem of the MSM collaborating to refuse advertising to something that was pretty mild. Do you think that didn't happen?
    - roblogic 5.3.2.2
      
      26 July 2023 at 11:34 am
      
      I have been very critical of the Parliament protests and its disgraceful misogyny and violence. And quite harsh on Julian Batchelor and his anti Maori crusade.
      
      I am an equal opportunity critic of bullshitters.
      
      Posie Parker probably belongs in the “BS” category too, but that doesn’t justify the way that she and her supporters were treated in Aotearoa.
      - weka 5.3.2.2.1
        
        26 July 2023 at 12:40 pm
        
        this is a very clear and useful comment.
  - arkie 5.3.3
    
    26 July 2023 at 11:25 am
    
    Bisexuals are definitionally not 'sex attracted'.
    
    The vast majority of lesbian, gay and bisexual people are supportive of, and not concerned at all about the existence of trans people or any supposed 'ideology'.
    
    The queer community has always included trans people and efforts to exclude them are ahistorical, confused and ideological.
    - weka 5.3.3.1
      
      26 July 2023 at 12:06 pm
      
      The vast majority of lesbian, gay and bisexual people are supportive of, and not concerned at all about the existence of trans people or any supposed 'ideology'.
      
      What makes you think this?
      
      I agree about the queer community comment, but do you accept that there are significant numbers of LGB people who don't ID as queer and don't see themselves as part of that community?
      - arkie 5.3.3.1.1
        
        26 July 2023 at 12:20 pm
        
        https://thespinoff.co.nz/society/02-06-2023/vast-majority-of-new-zealanders-believe-trans-people-should-be-protected-from-discrimination-poll
        
        Can you quantify 'significant'? Otherwise what makes you think that?
        
        weka 5.3.3.1.1.1
        
        26 July 2023 at 12:46 pm
        
        The latest global survey from Ipsos – the LGBT+ Pride 2023 survey – shows that 84% of New Zealanders believe transgender people should be protected from discrimination in employment, housing and access to businesses.
        
        That's my understanding too. That's not the same as "The vast majority of lesbian, gay and bisexual people are supportive of, and not concerned at all about the existence of trans people or any supposed 'ideology'."
        
        When we look at yougov polling in the UK, it's very clear that most people support the human rights of trans people (as above), and draw the line at TWAW and accessing women's changing rooms.
        
        Have a look at what happens to women's positions when they understand that a TW can be a man with no surgical treatment.
        
        weka …
        
        26 July 2023 at 12:48 pm
        
        this is worth highlighting. You appear to think that people who object to TWAW are inherently anti-trans human rights. They're not.
        
        arkie …
        
        26 July 2023 at 1:00 pm
        
        My example is the 'vast majority' of NZers, which automatically includes LGB NZers.
        
        The UK is not the same as NZ.
        
        You have failed to quantify your claim of 'significance' and you again make up claims about my beliefs.
        
        weka …
        
        26 July 2023 at 1:08 pm
        
        I know what you did, but I countered that by pointing out that your vidence didn't match your claim.
        
        I then made the argument that most people support trans rights but don't support transgressions of women's rights and I provided a reputable polling company in a similar country.
        
        Yes, the UK isn't NZ. We don't do adequate polling on this in NZ. I wonder why.
        
        You have failed to quantify your claim of 'significance' and you again make up claims about my beliefs.
        
        Just been dealing with other things, will get to it in a while.
        
        arkie …
        
        26 July 2023 at 2:26 pm
        
        Here's some UK evidence then:
        
        Lesbians are the most supportive of trans people
        
        Of all LGBT+ identities, other than trans and non-binary people themselves, lesbian young adults were most likely to say they know a trans person (92%), and most likely to say they are “supportive” or “very supportive” of trans people (96%).
        
        In comparison, 89% of LGBT+ people overall said they were “supportive” or “very supportive” of trans people, and just 69% of non-LGBT+ people said the same.
        
        https://www.justlikeus.org/blog/2023/03/31/trans-day-of-visibility-ally-lesbian/
    - Visubversa 5.3.3.2
      
      26 July 2023 at 1:18 pm
      
      You are confusing the past – when the vast majority of trans people were gay men at a time when sex between men was unlawful and some of them internalised their homophobia and "transed away the Gay". There were also a few lesbians who endeavoured to be more like men for personal protection and/or at the bequest of their "straight acting" girlfriends. All these people were same sex attracted and very much part of the LGB community.
      
      Today, with Homosexual Law Reform and Marriage Equality, there is no longer the impetus for that kind of "gay conversion therapy". Today's trans identifying people are quite different. Many are heterosexual, the men have wives and children and when they "identify" as women, they also identify as lesbians. The same with many of the young women who reject the pornified and oppressive female gender roles of today and seek to identify their way out of their oppression. They identify as gay men and then have problems finding sexual partners as they do not have when gay men want.
      
      It is this kind of sexual repression and resentment that drives a lot of the vitriol – particularly against lesbians who are just not interested in a "transbian".
      - SPC 5.3.3.2.1
        
        26 July 2023 at 2:16 pm
        
        Society has always had its narrative order.
        
        One stated that homosexuality was caused by idolatry and those of faith therefore could not be homosexual.
        
        Another that if there was a bad harvest blaming a woman could give the community hope as they waited for another harvest.
        
        But eventually science comes to the party and explains the natural world and human biology, chemistry and psyche a little better.
        
        Reckons are useful, and each individual has them.
  - SPC 5.3.4
    
    26 July 2023 at 11:58 am
    
    There was a period of common cause – it was of course the equal rights and protections for people regardless of religion, race, ethnicity, sex, sexuality or gender identity.
    
    It seems to be a separation between sexuality and gender identity, as to common cause. As if their equal rights and or protection could conflict.
    
    Our rights as same sex attracted people rest on the idea that same-sex attraction is real and normal and should be afforded the same rights and respect as heterosexuality. That is all we want – the same rights as straight people.
    
    All fine, but then there is the common cause with those who deny any reality (or normality) to gender identity where this is different to biological sex.
    - Visubversa 5.3.4.1
      
      26 July 2023 at 1:22 pm
      
      Sorry – what reality/normality is there in the idea that people have a "gendered soul" which supersedes biological reality? Where is the test for this "gender reality"?
      
      The truth about your sex is in every drop of your blood. If you are going to state that something should overcome that – you better have a good definition of it and some sort of ability to prove it.
      - SPC 5.3.4.1.1
        
        26 July 2023 at 1:29 pm
        
        Thanks for so explicitly, explaining my point.
        
        Visubversa 5.3.4.1.1.1
        
        26 July 2023 at 3:22 pm
        
        Thanks for demonstrating that you have no arguement. You are welcome to believe in gender ideology – I am welcome to not believe in it.
        
        SPC …
        
        26 July 2023 at 3:41 pm
        
        That I have not made a case, is not evidence that I have no argument. It's not the point being discussed, which was related to the end of common cause.
- weka 5.4
  
  26 July 2023 at 11:00 am
  
  I'm with roblogic on this one. The moral high ground to make these statements was lost because of the lack of condemnation of the male violence against women at LWS in Auckland, as well as the use of violence to prevent NZ women from speaking.
  
  It's just too jarring, and imo what Hannah is doing with this partisan approach is engaging in the culture war.
  - tWiggle 5.4.1
    
    26 July 2023 at 11:27 am
    
    Rather a fallacious argument to discount Hannah's right to comment on gender-based online violence, weka. By that same logic, VS and RB are disbarred from any comments on this topic because they have not denounced the actual physical violence against a woman exercising her right to freedom of expression in Batchelor's PN meeting.
    
    Hannah is in an excellent position to make an informed comment: she works with this revolting material every day.
    - roblogic 5.4.1.1
      
      26 July 2023 at 11:44 am
      
      I do not discount Hannah's personal right to comment, no doubt she has experienced some of the worst dregs of humanity online. But her article turns a blind eye to others not of her political persuasion and the equal amount of shit they have to deal with.
    - Sabine 5.4.1.2
      
      26 July 2023 at 11:58 am
      
      Has that person defined the women that they speak of? female women, male women, non binary women of both sexes?
      
      IF not, it's meaningless drivel.
      
      And females getting bullied, what else is new, i mean this is NZ a country with sky high domestic violence stats.
      
      As or Albert Park the only ones that were getting the bash there were the middle aged women – maori and pakeha – that came for a meeting of their peers to a public park. Not a single male women or a single female man were harmed.
      - tWiggle 5.4.1.2.1
        
        26 July 2023 at 12:43 pm
        
        Not true, a known neo-nazi the crowd pushed around a tiny woman counter-protest marshall. He continued to harass her physically until a trans woman in blue gave him a good punch on the shoulder, after talking with the marshall briefly.
        
        Apart from this, the juice incident, the young man who punched the woman, the motorbike hit on Marama, and thuggish behaviour by Posie supporters, the Brian Tamaki mob, where is the orchestrated anti-woman violence in the counter-protest in the thousands, in which many ‘bio’ women came along to protest noisily against PP.
        
        weka 5.4.1.2.1.1
        
        26 July 2023 at 1:04 pm
        
        you need to provide the evidence for those. Putting you in premod until you do. The MSM made a mess of reporting this, so we may as well get it sorted out now. I'm not doubting you so much as wanting clarity and to sort out the facts from the hyperbole (feel free to point me to other comments that need to provide evidence too).
        
        Evidence means,
        
        links *and quotes to support each specific claim
        
        if using video/audio, a time stamp to the relevant bits.
        
        Each claim means,
        
        a known neo nazi pushed a counter protest marshal around
        
        continued to harass her
        
        stopped when a TW intervened
        
        thuggish behaviour by Posie supporters (plural)
        
        tWiggle …
        
        26 July 2023 at 3:49 pm
        
        Saw the harassment of the marshall 'with my own eyes' on an extensive video analysis, virtually frame-by-frame on BHN. The man was post-incident id’d as a neo-nazi.
        
        Unfortunately BHN has taken down their clip, so I cannot say any more than I was an eye-witness to credible visuals that clearly showed this sequence of events. I have discussed these events at TS before weka
        
        Are you using your site capacity to censor my posts with no warning ? Where is my post on UK media?
        
        weka …
        
        26 July 2023 at 4:20 pm
        
        No, I'm not censoring you, you're in premod, which means none of your comments will appear until you've provided evidence. This is to make sure that people provide back up for claims of fact (see the site Policy) and don't create work for the mods having to chase them up. We've been using this method for a long time.
        
        In this case you have explained why you can't provide evidence, but I'm going to ask you to link to the person and place that used to have the video up.
        
        You also need to provide evidence for the last claim in my list.
        
        I've explained moderation and expectations to you before.
        
        .https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-15-06-2023/#comment-1954626
        
        I'm not willing to allow such loose claims of fact on such a controversial topic. Again, if you see other people needing to be pulled up on this please let one of the mods know (we will need a link to the specific comment and a brief explanation).
        
        tWiggle …
        
        26 July 2023 at 5:33 pm
        
        Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, weka. Where is your evidence/link that trans lesbians are pressuring 'real' lesbians into sex? And where is Anker's link for the former judge discrediting the Disinformation Project?
        
        You ARE censoring me if you hold only me to your moderator standard of providing proof (in a debate you hold a contrary position on, I point out), but do not hold yourself or others who continue a thread I initiated this morning to the same requirement.
        
        weka …
        
        26 July 2023 at 7:11 pm
        
        This is now being discussed in the back end. I'm going to ban you for 24 hours so the mods can finish that conversation.
        
        My suggestion is this:
        
        Take some time over the next day to reread my two (unbolded) moderation comments. I've explained quite clearly what is needed (two simply pieces of evidence and how that needs to be done).
        
        If you don't want to provide evidence, then please withdraw the claims you made.
        
        If you can do either of those two things then no further ban will be likely.
        
        I've also explained how you can get moderators to look at other comments you think are a problem.
        
        Three further points:
        
        wasting moderator time and/or arguing about moderation are two fast pathways to a ban. If you slow down and read what I said you will see an easy way to get out of premod and how to avoid a ban
        
        You may feel like this is unfair, but I'm cutting you slack here. Other commenters on other topics would have been banned by now.
        
        the Policy says this
        "This includes making assertions that you are unable to substantiate with some proof (and that doesn’t mean endless links to unsubstantial authorities) or even argue when requested to do so. Such comments may be deleted without warning or one of the alternatives below may be employed. The action taken is completely up to the moderator who takes it."
        We don't require pre-emptive evidence with every comment, but anyone here can ask any other commenter for evidence if it hasn't already been provided. The key here is to actually ask, and do so in a clear way that people can understand.
        
        https://thestandard.org.nz/policy/
        
        weka …
        
        28 July 2023 at 10:44 am
        
        MOD NOTE: It's two days later and you haven't responded. I'm drawing a line under this so I don't have to waste more time on it. You are now out of premod and off the ban list.
        
        This is your final warning. Next time you refuse to provide back up for claims of fact when asked, and/or you ignore moderation, and/or you hassle moderators or try and fight about the moderation, I will simply ban you so that I don't have to waste my time any further. I don't know how long that ban will be, maybe a few weeks or a month. But if you give me grief I will ban you until after the election.
        
        To be very clear, this has nothing to do with the topic. I want you to keep bringing your arguments to TS, you just have to work with the rules like everyone else. This is to do with you ignoring moderation and picking a fight about it.
        
        Anyone else that behaved as you did two says ago would already have been banned, but I'm cutting you slack because I think the debate on TS is better served by you being able to comment than not. There are limits to that however.
        
        Please read this post for how evidence needs to be presented, and ask if you are unclear,
        
        https://thestandard.org.nz/moderation-notes-in-election-year/
    - weka 5.4.1.3
      
      26 July 2023 at 12:11 pm
      
      I'm not discounting her right to comment so much as pointing out that she doesn't have the moral high ground.
      
      It's not hard to ascertain what rob, V and I think about say the woman who was assaulted at JB's meeting. You can just ask.
      
      (fwiw I think it was assault and I hope she presses charges. I also think activists need to be aware of the undisciplined situation they are putting themselves in. I expect they already know that, I hope they get strategic about it. There's an opportunity here to use the Justice System to get the JB crowd to shift back into societal protest norms. But that also takes us back to LWS and what the fuck the police were not doing).
      
      But can you tell me what statements DIP have made about the violence at LWS?
      - tWiggle 5.4.1.3.1
        
        26 July 2023 at 12:54 pm
        
        The Disinformation Project deals with online calls for violence. Isolated incidences of physical violence at an overwhelmingly peaceful counterprotest is kind of outside their brief.
        
        If there had been an outpouring of murder and rape threats online from NZers against Posie Parker, as there was against the protester who merely poured juice on PP, and against Lal simply for organising a peaceful counterprotest that repeatedly emphasised non-violence, then we would have heard of it from Hannah.
        
        roblogic 5.4.1.3.1.1
        
        27 July 2023 at 2:42 pm
        
        This comment highlights why we really need to "let women speak" for themselves rather than believe everything that outfits like TDIP spoon feed us.
        
        Here are a couple of items you won’t see in the NZ news:
        https://twitter.com/ReduxxMag/status/1616910618703040514?s=20
        https://reduxx.info/new-zealand-womens-rights-campaigner-mobbed-attacked-by-trans-activists/
        
        SPC 5.4.1.3.1.2
        
        27 July 2023 at 4:06 pm
        
        Sure the DIP deals with online information/activity that relates to incitement to violence here (not overseas).
        
        In so far as public events/activities here, any threats or planning of acts of violence.
    - Anker 5.4.1.4
      
      26 July 2023 at 2:13 pm
      
      Kate Hannah has every right to speak up about her experience as a woman on line.
      
      But I think" on-line violence" is an oxymoron as violence is physical and happens in the real world (like in Albert Park). Language however hurtful isn't violence and changing the definition of violence is unhelpful. Not to take away from verbal threats of violence which are against the law.
      
      TDP has been very well critiqued in the media, shortly after Posie Parkers visit. The commentators spanned across the left right divide. Then a retired district court judge reviewed their work including their metholodogy and completely discredited them. The DIP exist to re-inforce an indeological narrative and thus their purpose is propaganda. They have likely won a $500,000 contract to carry out this work. Both the fact that they do it and the fact that tax payers pay for it is disgraceful. I hope the new NACT govt cancell their contract or if they can't, don't renew. We have spies that are specialists in monitoring citizens who may be a danger to our society. They are trained to do this job and do it in secret.
      - gsays 5.4.1.4.1
        
        27 July 2023 at 10:31 am
        
        While I essentially support your views on this wider subject, I do take issue with;…"as violence is physical and happens in the real world (like in Albert Park). Language however hurtful isn't violence and changing the definition of violence is unhelpful".
        
        A few years back I was involved as a Scout Leader at a Jamboree. A few of our senior female Scouts asked if they could have an all girl patrol. We agreed. For the first two days they were unstoppable, tight, co-operative and happy.
        
        Activities on day 3 included building a raft and going around a buoy and returning. It didn't go well is an understatement. The nasty back-biting and ganging up that occurred was shocking. Often out of earshot or in quiet moments. That evening the patrol members were 're-assigned' to other patrols.
        
        The point I am making (finally) was illustrated at a korero we had at the first night back at Scouts a few weeks later. While not speaking of the events outlined above, a young female Scout observed that "when a female wants to hurt you, you stay hurt".
        
        I know of those who possess a 'wicked tongue', constantly undermining, questioning one's worth or ability and happily highlighting short-comings.
        
        I accept that on-line carry-on is a step away in severity from real world and I have more than a few questions about DIP's beginnings, funders and true motive but words do matter.
        
        Anker 5.4.1.4.1.1
        
        27 July 2023 at 11:02 am
        
        I actually agree Gsays. Verbal harrasment can be devastating.
        
        No question.
Bearded Git 6

26 July 2023 at 10:05 am

And Jason Ake has quit. Well that was predictable.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/kahu/rnz-board-member-jason-ake-quits-telling-board-chair-i-wont-be-constrained-because-im-on-a-crown-board/4ZEWHO5WXJF3NCGKRQZC3YCJ6E/
- Dennis Frank 6.1
  
  26 July 2023 at 10:15 am
  
  Dunno about predictable. Does a rebel get street cred by caving to political pressure?? Tradition has it that he who fights & runs away will live to fight another day, so I guess one ought to acknowledge his pragmatism. A rebel has to learn to develop solidarity in common cause, so maybe that will be his learning curve…
- Ad 6.2
  
  26 July 2023 at 11:21 am
  
  Incapable of reading the job description;
  
  should never have put himself forward for nomination.
  - bwaghorn 6.2.1
    
    26 July 2023 at 12:27 pm
    
    Na it'll be another case of the effects colonialism and white people, not recognizing Akes right to do things differently
  - SPC 6.2.2
    
    26 July 2023 at 12:51 pm
    
    Sure the job description is designed to prevent any capacity to have any relevance.
    
    Empty chairs at empty tables. Sums up what so much of bureaucracy has become.
  - Belladonna 6.2.3
    
    26 July 2023 at 5:47 pm
    
    He doesn't seem to have considered the potential conflicts of interest in his multiple board roles
    
    I told Jim the problem I have got is I sit on Te Whakaruruhau and part of my mandate on that board is to be noisy around political stuff. With the election coming forward, there’s going to be more of this, so I said I’m out.”
    
    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/kahu/rnz-board-member-jason-ake-quits-telling-board-chair-i-wont-be-constrained-because-im-on-a-crown-board/4ZEWHO5WXJF3NCGKRQZC3YCJ6E/
    
    And, given the publicity around Rob Campbell earlier this year, he really should have….
roblogic 7

26 July 2023 at 12:36 pm

CNN posts "obituary" for twitter

Elon Musk has officially killed Twitter. The zombie platform lives on as X, a disfigured shell of its former self | CNN Business

“Twitter, the text-based social media platform that played an outsized role on society by serving as a digital town square, was killed by its unhinged owner Elon Musk on Sunday. It was 17 years old.

A zombie Twitter, known only as X, reluctantly endures. A warped and disfigured platform, X marches on like a White Walker, an ugly shell of its former self under the command of a loathsome leader.

Whereas Twitter was once a fountain of authoritative information, X is a platform where trolls can pay a small fee to have their ugly content boosted ahead of reputable sources.

X is a platform where identity verification no longer exists and impersonation is only a paid subscription away.”
- SPC 7.1
  
  26 July 2023 at 12:43 pm
  
  Doing in plain light of day what his satellites are doing to the night.
  - bwaghorn 7.1.1
    
    26 July 2023 at 6:13 pm
    
    Not only the night, 100% cell coverage world wide!!! No where to hide.
SPC 8

26 July 2023 at 1:25 pm

Missing, last seen with this man

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/13061/production/_130412977_b17e095d-a7dd-4c86-8e23-d15aded671b2.jpg.webp

Mr Qin Gang attended a series of events in June including meeting US Secretary of State Antony Blinken.

There is a new foreign minister of China, the old one 2013-2022.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-66299379

The more recent one, apparently gave our Foreign Minister Nanaia Mahuta a major dressing during her visit to Beijing in March.

The Australian reports that Mahuta copped an "epic haranguing"; by her counterpart Qin Gang, quoting sources familiar with the incident.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/nanaia-mahuta-received-dressing-down-from-chinese-foreign-minister-reports/QLPJDQEJ5JEQJLQT4UMA7E6M4Q/

Old Arawa saying, when hosting woman of the Tainui, …do not shout so loud that one can later only whisper when the man comes to town.

PS – we could respect the man from Foggybottom, but we know the man with the resignation shadow, the wise feed him.
- Dennis Frank 8.1
  
  26 July 2023 at 1:32 pm
  
  I liked this bit:
  
  Under the Chinese Communist Party system, foreign policy is formulated by a high-level official, who then directs the foreign minister to implement it.
  
  So you have a puppeteer & a puppet. Perhaps the minister thought being a protege of Xi gave him more autonomy than his controller deemed appropriate?
  - SPC 8.1.1
    
    26 July 2023 at 1:35 pm
    
    And of course to Xi, your and my policy was sound – but he could not make it work, so it's on him.
SPC 9

26 July 2023 at 1:54 pm

Those who realised that a rent freeze was the best way to manage the cost of living crisis were right.

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/money/2023/07/trade-me-data-kiwi-renters-paying-2600-more-a-year-than-last-year.html
- Phillip ure 9.1
  
  26 July 2023 at 3:36 pm
  
  Greedy/grasping rent-rackers are running amuck…
  
  Expecting them to act in a reasonable/fair manner is delusional..
  
  Rent-freezing/wofs are the minimum actions urgently needed..
SPC 10

26 July 2023 at 2:01 pm

Proof the earthling is a potato head.

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/world/2023/07/there-s-a-gravity-hole-in-the-indian-ocean-and-scientists-now-think-they-know-why/_jcr_content/par/image.dynimg.full.q75.jpg/v1690227217696/cnn-GRAVITY-HOLE-1120.jpg

"The Earth is basically a lumpy potato," said study coauthor Attreyee Ghosh, a geophysicist and associate professor at the Centre for Earth Sciences of the Indian Institute of Science. "So technically it's not a sphere, but what we call an ellipsoid, because as the planet rotates the middle part bulges outward."

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/world/2023/07/there-s-a-gravity-hole-in-the-indian-ocean-and-scientists-now-think-they-know-why.html?ref=ves-nextauto
- Dennis Frank 10.1
  
  26 July 2023 at 2:37 pm
  
  Yeah I read that yesterday. We got taught the oblate spheroid view in college physics (mid-late '60s). That asymmetry is now more complex. I suppose the effect of the anomaly on plate tectonics is the guts of the research. Wait until a modified theory becomes output after the research…
  - SPC 10.1.1
    
    26 July 2023 at 2:59 pm
    
    Not me, while I did 6th form physics, I used the class for history revision (an option available to those choosing a new subject in the 7th form year – they allowed a 4 subject UE pass), thus an easy A. E = mc2 and the basics of the atom etc (or was that 4th form, I got an A in 4th form science).
    
    They seem quite aware that they still have something to work out. Modified and or upgraded position and all.
joe90 11

26 July 2023 at 2:30 pm

Yes please.

The Taxpayers’ Union has heard from sources that Nicky Hager is working on a book which is focused at the Taxpayers’ Union. We are aware of him approaching former members of staff asking them to breach confidences.

Chairman of the Taxpayers’ Union, Laurie Kubiak said:

[…]

“It is no surprise the Taxpayers’ Union is Mr Hager’s latest target. He is coming for us because we are successful.

https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO2307/S00177/pre-election-books-avoiding-false-impressions.htm
- Dennis Frank 11.1
  
  26 July 2023 at 2:48 pm
  
  Could be fun.
  
  “Hager is very good at collecting disparate facts and then weaving them to suit an interpretation using selective and partial use of those facts."
  
  How else can he front as a partisan??
  
  We are successful because we have hundreds of thousands of subscribed supporters, and more than 23,000 donors. There is a very sad history of hacks and theft of data from centre-right groups in New Zealand.
  
  Have-nots hacking haves, ha! As if wealthy folk don't have a right of privacy in the view of leftist hackers. Selective morality is a partisan thing. Hypocrisy.
  
  In the United Kingdom, security services have been more proactive in assisting think tanks to defend themselves from politically motivated cyber-attacks.
  
  An actual bleat! They think they're a think-tank, not just a union. Well then, spend the goddam donations on security like the Brits then! Spit that dummy!
- bwaghorn 11.2
  
  26 July 2023 at 2:56 pm
  
  Is that the same tax papers union that that took the wage subsidie ?
  
  Surly a national party stalking horse would be squeaky clean!!!
- Drowsy M. Kram 11.3
  
  26 July 2023 at 3:02 pm
  
  He [Hager] is coming for us [the Taxpayers’ Union] because we are successful.
  
  Does Kubiak consider 'PMs ruling out a CGT or wealth tax' to be a success? Probably.
  
  “Journalists should also be wary of relying on Mr Hager’s claims. His last book Hit & Run, resulted in an enquiry led by a former Supreme Court Judge, and a former Attorney General and Prime Minister. They concluded that the “principal allegations” in Hager’s book “are not accurate”.
  – Kubiak [Chairman of the Taxpayers' Union]
  
  Hit and Run inquiry: Reactions throw doubt over trust in New Zealand military [4 August 2020]
  Does the report agree with the military or Hager and Stephenson?
  
  Hager has responded. He argues that "after nearly ten years of denials, the Inquiry has confirmed the main allegations in the book Hit & Run." And he concludes "The report contains the most serious findings against the NZSAS and NZDF in their history. This should prompt a lot of soul searching inside the New Zealand Defence Force."
  
  Gordon Campbell doesn't accept the report's findings at all. He has written a scathing response, suggesting it amounts to a whitewash and does not sufficiently deal with the military misadventure and misinformation in question.
  
  Campbell doesn't accept there was no Defence Force cover-up. Furthermore, he does not believe the Defence Force will fix the problems identified: "Can we really expect an organisation with this bunker mentality to reform itself voluntarily, from the inside?"
  
  "This bunker mentality", eh? A fair description of Kubiak's mentality too, imho.
- SPC 11.4
  
  26 July 2023 at 3:09 pm
  
  "Breaches of confidence", do employees have to sign contracts to keep their knowledge of the TU to themselves?
  
  "Centre-right organisations as victims of cyber attacks" … oh so it is a centre-right organisation then …
Ad 12

26 July 2023 at 3:39 pm

Otago Regional Council's staff tell the Council that banning dairy farming in some areas needs to be an option.

https://www.odt.co.nz/regions/dairying-gun-river-action-urged

So it's not just Green Party policy, it's also official advice to one of the worst and most dysfunctional regional councils in the country.
SPC 13

26 July 2023 at 3:57 pm

The case for banning the mobiles from schools.

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/shows/2023/07/newshub-nation-researcher-says-social-media-changing-kids-brains-wants-it-treated-like-other-addictive-substances.html
Roy Cartland 14

26 July 2023 at 4:16 pm

With you there (possibly for the first time, but with you all the same).
Hunter Thompson II 15

27 July 2023 at 10:13 am

According to news reports, the Long Bay snapper poacher was warned 5 times by DoC staff about his illegal activities.

Shows what a stern rebuke will do, doesn't it?

I doubt if the $4,000 fine will be paid, unless he poaches more fish to get the dosh, making the whole judicial process a laughing stock.