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Open Mike 28/11/2017

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, November 28th, 2017 - 201 comments
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201 comments on “Open Mike 28/11/2017 ”

  1. Ed 1

    Soper’s daily whinge and smear against the government.
    He really is a nasty piece of work.
    This time he has a go at Golriz Ghahraman.
    What a slimeball.


    And there there is Trevett’s petty attack.
    ‘Ardern flourishes in ‘swamp of secrecy’


    The Herald really does not like this government.
    And it has miserable puppets who would sell their soul for a pay cheque.

    • DH 1.1

      I wonder if Soper can see the irony in his closing line;

      “It’s just that one side has been consistently and conveniently highlighted over the other.”

      Didn’t take long to get from Kiwiblog and Whaleoil to the Herald did it.

      • Ed 1.1.1

        Brilliant observation.

      • Carolyn_nth 1.1.2

        Remember how John Key’s new government in 2008, came in on a raft of two track dirty politics and soft media infotainment spin? And then they were like the deer in the headlines, without much of a plan, so…..

        2009 John Key’s much touted Job Summit, threw up “3 Big Ideas”. Audrey Young raved in the NZ Herald:

        The most expensive proposal from the summit was for an equity investment fund involving the Government and private banks as partners.

        The most expensive single pledge given yesterday came from Warehouse founder Stephen Tindall, who said the Tindall Foundation would put $1 million towards “bottom-up” training that helped improve people’s access to information and services.

        At the summit, Mr Key said the public-private investment fund would be “a pot of investment money to help New Zealand companies get the access to share capital they need to grow their cake and therefore to create jobs”.

        Mr Key said completing the walking track would cost about $6 million.

        Adding a cycle track would create huge tourism opportunities.

        He singled out for mention a possible public-private fund to help increase tourism.

        He also said he wanted to fast-track implementation of National’s youth guarantee scheme which covers the transition from school to training or study.

        • Zorb6

          The Thiel deal,worked out rather well.For Thiel of course,although Joyce said it was Labour’s fault.

        • Puckish Rogue

          Spinning like a spinning thing:


          But she admits that her profile page on the Green Party website, which states that she has put African leaders on trial for abusing their power, “could be clearer”.

          Theres a slight difference between prosecuting war criminals and defending war criminals

          [lprent: You are simply lying at several levels. But I think this is easier to demonstrate rather than explain at any level..

          1. There is no significiant difference between defending and prosecuting. Both are part of a court process that leads to judgement.

          2. Her bio actually said – read it carefully

          Her studies at Oxford, and work as a lawyer for the United Nations and in New Zealand, have focused on enforcing human rights and holding governments to account. Golriz has lived and worked in Africa, The Hague and Cambodia putting on trial world leaders for abusing their power, and restoring communities after war and human rights atrocities, particularly empowering women engaged in peace and justice initiatives.

          3. Putting people on trial is not a prosecution prerogative. It applies to both defense and and prosecution.

          4. I think you are trolling and as a local prosecutor and judge, we clearly don’t need a defense. Therefore there should be no trial to look at the actual circumstances.

          5. Banned for 1 month for crimes against robust debate..

          6. This is not arbitrary in anyway. It is a simple matter of arbitrary lynch mob justice without due process.


          • One Anonymous Bloke

            And since Golriz Ghahraman has experience of both, she knows an infinite amount more about the difference than you do, but then so does the stenographer.

            • Puckish Rogue

              I bet she also knows that saying you prosecuted war criminals sounds a lot better than saying you defended them

          • amirite

            there’s a slight difference between ‘defending war criminals’ and working as an intern on a defence team for the war criminals

            • One Anonymous Bloke

              That line of attack is an attack on the entire justice system. Shall we start listing which National Party MPs have worked as defence lawyers?

              Everyone who works in a courtroom enables the prosecution of alleged offenders.

      • Psycho Milt 1.1.3

        Didn’t take long to get from Kiwiblog and Whaleoil to the Herald did it.

        It never does. The Herald should cut out the middle-man – ditch Soper and put DPF on a retainer for its right-wing propaganda stories.

        • Sanctuary

          Yup, from sewer to MSM as the National party smear machine cranks up and all the MSM journos gather around the outflow pipe mouths agape. After all, Farrar negates the need to think, or to resrach, and he helpfully even writes your questions for you.

          Soper in particular seems to have decided to wage a misogynistic war on anyone who dares to commit the crime of being young, female and more powerful than him. Linda Clark got it 100% right when she pretty much name checked him and his attitude and told he needed to wake up or ship out.

          • Anne

            It’s obvious what the Nats and their MSM enablers are trying to do. The accusations are going to come thick and fast through to the end of this parliamentary session (ie. just before Xmas) leaving a trail of perplexed voters to gather around the barbecues wondering whether they made the right choice voting for Labour/Green or NZ First – whichever. It doesn’t matter the claims are nothing more than garbled rubbish. Its the first part of a slow, subliminal manipulation of their minds.

            I noted the sharp edge of cold fury in Barry Soper’s voice at the first stand-up media interviews which followed Winston Peters’ announcement. I knew then he was going to take a vicious approach and he has clearly influenced the little wife, Heather DPA.

    • Antoine 1.2

      Ghahraman is a genocide enabler


      [RL: This smells like a particularly silly attempt at trolling. End it here. No further warning.]

      • DoublePlusGood 1.2.1

        How exactly do you come up with that piece of nonsense, Antoine?

      • Psycho Milt 1.2.2

        Antoine is a dog felcher.

        Do I have this game right? It looks like fun but I’m not clear on how to play.

      • Antoine 1.2.3


        Ban me if you want, I believe what she did was wrong.

        [RL: I don’t care what you believe here, I do care that you dropped a controversial comment with no supporting argument or citation. That ‘smells’ very much like typical hit and run troll behaviour. I moderate on behaviour not content; make your case honestly and I’m unlikely to intervene.]


        • adam

          Bot Antoine, I see you added can’t read to the list of your idiocy.

          If you need help with a word, feel free to ask.


        • One Anonymous Bloke

          You realise that without defence lawyers we can’t put people on trial at all? If you want genocide and other human rights abuses to be prosecuted, you have to have court staff.

          Take your notion to its logical conclusion and you’re effectively saying that the International Court of Justice enables war crimes, and that our court system enables murder.

          Is that what you’re saying?

          • Antoine


            There is a role for defense lawyers in the legal system and we need a legal system. That doesnt mean I have to like or endorse those who choose to defend heinous crim inals.


            • One Anonymous Bloke

              No. That isn’t what you said. Your endearments and endorsements have no value, so with-holding them is of no consequence. However, you made a very specific allegation against people who work on legal defence teams – that their job enables crime.

              Are you now backing down from that into a vague sense of disapproval? If so, how about you take some personal responsibility for your disgusting false accusation?

              Grow a spine.

              • Antoine

                To work to get a guilty criminal acquitted, enables more crime of the same sort. I don’t resile from that


                • One Anonymous Bloke

                  First the verdict, then the trial. Joseph Nzirorera would be proud of you.

                • McFlock

                  That’s not actually the role of a defense lawyer, any more than the role of a prosecutor is “to get an innocent person convicted”.

                  Often the morally bankrupt or hard of thinking reduce the functions to simply “get a guilty criminal acquitted” or “innocent person convicted”, but the role of the court is to try to determine the truth. The prosecution present their case, the defense present the case as it appeared to the defendant, and the court decides. Neither party in an adversarial system is allowed to mislead the court, AFAIK. Correct me if I’m wrong.

                • Macro

                  And it’s ok to work for a company that sells a product that kills people and has killed more than the all of Rwanda?

    • Wayne 1.3

      Why is it unreasonable to point out that Golriz Ghahraman acted for the defence in the genocide trials. When you read her bio on the Green website it gave the impression she was prosecuting genocide, not just in Cambodia but also in Rawanda.
      Now I have no problem with her acting for the defence, but she should not have given the wrong impression.
      It is not unfair for a journalist to point that out. It is not the act of a slimeball to do so, nether is it sexist.
      This site is always saying how terrible National MP’s on the basis they are all psychopaths and liars. But you can’t stand even the slightest adverse comment about those from the left.

      • One Anonymous Bloke 1.3.1

        What about accusing her of enabling genocide? Which is what “the left” is actually defending her against.

        Can you help me understand right wing thinks on this issue please? When you collaborated with Nicky Hager, were you enabling war crimes or Al Quaeda?

        What about the Law Commission? You definitely must’ve enabled some pretty serious crimes there, and I don’t just mean the things the National Party wanted 😉

        • David Mac

          Yes, if we use that ruler to measure Golriz every lawyer that ever defends a criminal is somehow implicated in the crime.

          It’s crucial that the crime and the analytical dissection of it after the event are mutually exclusive.

          If Golriz’s bio implies she rode around the world on a big white stallion solving the war crime woes of the world, if we all agree everyone is entitled to a quality defence, she did. I lie in mine, I was useless at Rugby.

        • Wayne


          My comment was in response to Ed’s initial comment, but there have been so many other comments added, it is distanced from that – probably also the result of using an iPhone.

          David Farrar on Kiwiblog put the issue in quire a reasonable way, but some of the commenters on his site, not so much. But then some commenters on any of the main political sites use extravagant language accusing people of all sorts of things, and acting from the basest of reasons. The Standard is certainly not immune from that.

          • Psycho Milt

            DPF put it in as appalling a way as Phil Quin did – as a propaganda call to all those on the right who’d like to skip the human rights stuff and get on with the punishments.

            • greywarshark

              Some one on radio recently was saying how much was paid by observers to watch when they had really brutal punishments. I don’t think that human nature has left those of today unconcerned about the niceties of justice and rule of law, more enlightened than in the past.

              There are some amazing things in this piece:
              If a crowd was denied the spectacle of an execution on the allotted day, occasionally there was some gruesome compensation. In England in 1221, Thomas of Eldersfield was reprieved from hanging at the last moment; in a show of mercy, he was blinded and castrated instead. Robert Bartlett describes the scene: ‘the eyes were thrown to the ground, the testicles used as footballs, the local lads kicking them playfully at the girls’.

              Here is some homework for you in case you hadn’t caught up with these. Good primary school info.

          • rhinocrates

            David Farrar on Kiwiblog put the issue in quire a reasonable way

            Farrar? You say “reasonable” because it suits you. “Tendentious” and “disingenuous” are words that come to my mind. You know perfectly well that the Penguin never lets his hands get dirty in public and encourages his troll farm to do the dirty work for him.

            but some of the commenters on his site, not so much

            What a pity that because we lack your smarmy manners we’ll never be admitted to your gentleman’s club of “reasonable” men. Oh dear.

      • adam 1.3.2

        Come on wayne, we have all looked at the whale oil – we are far from that gutter.

        Have you ever put a comment there about the sexist, homophobic, and racist garbled crap that comes out of those sad excuses for human beings mouths?

        • rhinocrates

          Wayne has never experienced racism or sexism directed against him personally and therefore it does not exist or at least is not significant.

      • Ed 1.3.3

        If you can’t see why it’s unreasonable, you need help.

    • But in fact at the Rwandan Tribunal she was representing the war criminals in the genocide of around eight hundred thousand Tutsis. She complained about how poorly resourced the defence was. It was as though the United Nations didn’t really believe in the process, she opined.

      Ah, I see. He’s the type of person who thinks that people once accused of a crime shouldn’t have any defence and would probably do away with the trial altogether. And, once the trial is over and they’re found guilty, say that the lawyers who made up the defence team are just as bad as the ones found guilty.

      Yeah, got it.

    • mary_a 1.5

      Ed (1) … proof Natz (through Joyce) still pulling the strings of msm, with NZH dredging up whatever is possible to smear the coalition government, regardless of how truthful or inconsequential it is!

      Golriz was doing her job, as most lawyers are expected to do. Look at Key’s former job as a currency trader. Bet some of the activity there wasn’t above board! Was that ever challenged by msm? No!

      Natz will give itself a breakdown at this rate!

  2. eco maori 2

    Congratulations to Prince Harry and Megan Markle for there engagement there wedding is good for OUR worlds society.
    I only advocate Vapours as a tool to give up smoking as I’m using Vapours to give up. The only thing we should be breathing into our lungs is clean air we need to set a age limit R 18 and a display/advertising restrictions to limit the appeal and take up of vaping by our youth. PS your a bit out numbered Hillary you need a lady friend on the breakfast show Ka Pai

    • adam 2.1

      Monarchy, we don’t need no stinking monarchy.

      • Macro 2.1.1

        But The Treaty adam is between Maori and the Monarchy – not the NZ Govt. This is an issue that if NZ were to progress towards complete independence from England would need to be resolved.

      • Tony Veitch (not etc) 2.1.2

        Paraphrasing from ‘Blazing Saddles?’ lol

      • Cinny 2.1.3

        I agree with your comment Adam, but I also have to say, it’s awesome when two people fall in love and get married for the right reasons, his mum would have be thrilled.

      • greywarshark 2.1.4

        Give me monarchy not Trump or Key or Shipley. Let’s have the real thing not the nouveau riche.

        • solkta

          You want a genuine old English German lady who thinks her shit don’t stink? WTF for?

          • greywarshark

            She speaks more nicely than you. I like a bit of style in my leaders.

            • solkta

              But she is no leader of ours. She has done absolutely nothing as our Head of State. She was very polite in how she told Maori to piss off when ask to have some honour and look at the treaty her institution signed.

              Oh, and i don’t want to be your leader.

    • Psych nurse 2.2

      Ah but will she then be deported like all the other foreigners married to Brits.

  3. eco maori 3

    So your show is more gender equality Ka pai

    • cleangreen 3.1

      I now see that the national opposition is attempting to stall the new government’s plan to stop labour/NZF/Greens coalition “17 goals” and run then out of time, by jaming Labour with over 6200 “spam” questions.

      So Jacinda needs to show Government “leadership” and need to rush through an urgency bill to reverse the national party changes they (national) placed to allow this attempt to close down the new government, and restore the former system preventing this “tea party style” abuse of our parliamentary system..


      “The Government is going all out to tick off all 17 goals on its 100-day plan.

      A hundred days. Just over three months. It sounds like plenty of time until you blink and realise a month has passed since the Government was sworn in. They have until February 3.”

      • garibaldi 3.1.1

        I think you are right cleangreen. It is time Ardern showed some steel and dealt with these National ratbags. There is nothing nice about the Natz, they are at war and need to be exposed for their spiteful anti democratic behaviour. New Zealanders deserve better.

        • cleangreen

          Yes garabaldi;


          Labour coalition only have – 6th 7th 8th, – 12th, 13th, 14th December; – and the xmas party celebrations need to be be put in there somewhere we assume too.

          hey have their budget to release and befre 3rd February need to make good on the ’17 goals’ as the ‘100 day pledge’ to NZ.

          Labour have just six more days in parliament these emails this year, so we are screwed unless Jacinda can change the legislation today.

          Or else Labour are left bound up with these 6200 ‘spam’ emails now and labour now has no choice but to pass a ’emergency bill’ to stop “email spaming” forthwith.

          it is preventing government to function under legislation national passed. Remove all National legislation labour must in all areas also.

          I knew national would leave ‘hand grenades’ to stymie this new government so they need to remove all national toxic legislation now.

          • veutoviper

            That sitting calendar for 2017 is the one originally in place prior to the election and is now out of date.

            Following the swearing in of the new government a revised sitting programme for the remainder of 2017 was drawn up in conjunction with the proposed sitting calendar for 2018.


            So Parliament will sit for the next four weeks from today, Tues 28 Nov through until 6pm Thurs, 21 December – not just the two weeks originally planned (6th 7th 8th, – 12th, 13th, 14th December).

            Is is highly likely that Parliament will also go into urgency in order to get the PPL legislative amendments through and possibly other legislative business prior to the Christmas/New Year close down – including possibly reversing some Nats legislation.

            • cleangreen

              Thanks for giving us the updated sitting schedules veutoviper,

              I went on the usual site but being that the new government had “a minefield” of changes that were needed to be made with the whole moviing of the old tired national mob out into the ‘lower government’ buildings and the new labour coalition Government newly placed on the ninth floor of the ‘Beehive building’.

              We know only to well how difficult that two weeks it took to get the new Government communications up and running.

              I understood all this as I was employed by the ‘fourth largest communication company globally’ (Bell) and used to place new systems in Government buildings also.

              As our many NGO emails went un-anwered for weeks until we got hold of a Government secretary and were told that a “new communication system was in the process of being installed” and they had problems, so I guess this is catch up time for all.

              • veutoviper

                No problems, cleangreen.

                The Parliament website has actually been very quickly updated this round after the election. The new MPs were listed etc within a day of the election etc. and other needed amendments up very quickly.

                However, I did find it took a few minutes to relocate the link on the Parliament website to the revised sitting schedule for 2017. I knew that it had been changed but it was not immediately visible because it was included in the article re the proposed 2018 sitting programme.

                Having worked in government for many years in Wellington (including very closely working with and in the Parliament precinct), I am pretty sure the actual Parliament website (and related staff etc) would have been unaffected by the physical moves, changes to communications etc related to the change of government, relocation of MPs and parties. Fun days, but actually very much highly planned and managed chaos!

                • cleangreen

                  veutoviper thanks for that.

                  All good now we need to ‘stand in line with national waiting for the reples from the 42 emails we have sent the new government’.

                  Now our NGO representing many communities wonder if the national email nonsene has now prevented the Labour coalition government from responding to other questions for the community also now?

                  So that puts the public interest now behind national party’s own interests, and that means national wont care about their own impact upon our communities interests?

                  Maybe national should have thought clearly how their ‘obstruction’ process over 6200 emails of questions was going to impact on all NZ communities.

      • Puckish Rogue 3.1.2

        Maybe the government could answer the questions properly: https://publicaddress.net/legalbeagle/questions-but-no-answers-with-thanks-to-david/

        • veutoviper

          An interesting take by the ever-pedantic Graeme Edgeler, but i also suggest people read the comments which put things into a bit more perspective in terms of National’s actions while in government. In particular, it is worth reading Katherine Moody’s comment here


          This includes a number of replies by Key and his ministers to very similar diary related questions while in government. The wording of these replies is not only similar to one another of these Nat Ministers, but also to that now being used by the new Labour/NZF/Green government Ministers.


          Hon Bill English (Minister of Finance) replied: As Minister of Finance I have a large number of meetings in Wellington and around New Zealand. I do not believe it is a good use of staff time to itemise my meetings or engagements, nor attempt to list the names of every person I met over the course of a month. If the member is interested in a specific issue or organisations then I might be able to provide more detailed information.

          Hon Steven Joyce (Minister for Economic Development) replied: I hold a large number of meetings both formally and informally each month with a wide range of people and discuss a wide range of topics. I do not consider it reasonable use of official’s time to provide the Member with a comprehensive list of all such meetings, nor is it feasible as the information requested is often not specifically captured by my records. If the Member could be more specific about a particular area of interest I would be happy to consider his request.

  4. Grey Area 4

    English just on on Morning Report claiming National had raised the bar for transparency in government over the past 9 years and that Labour needed to up their game as they were stuck in time a decade ago. LOL. This from the party that totally subverted the OIA request process over the past 9 years.


    He was also asked if Smith was right in claiming National won the election. He wouldn’t say yes or no but his reply was something like “well we got the most votes
    and that’s really unusual”.

  5. Rosemary McDonald 5

    Okay, so I’m more than a tad uncomfortable with Ardern’s reluctance to release the 33/38 page coalition discussion document….

    But, but, Bill ‘the Lizard’ English’s sanctimonious prattle is genuine high end, puke making hypocrisy…. http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/political/344807/new-govt-has-no-follow-through-national

    “By any international standard the last government was open and transparent, and this government, as with many other things, has expressed these high-minded intentions and then fails to follow through.”

    Mr English said the previous National-led government lifted the bar a long way on transparency.

    “We stressed the early release of cabinet papers, the full release of budget documents, including draft reports which had not really been done before.

    “The extensive release of data because that’s such an important part of being able to monitor what a government is doing and how it is doing it.”

    This …. http://www.treasury.govt.nz/publications/informationreleases/ris/pdfs/ris-moh-fcc-may13.pdf Bill, is not ‘raising the bar’.

    PS….thinking that a ‘leftish’ government would be uncomfortable with such a heavily redacted justification for legislation that removed the rights of New Zealanders I did email the Head Office and requested that the blanked out bits of this document be revealed.

    Heard nothing yet. I guess they’re busy trying to spin not releasing documents their coalition partner said would be released.


    • Puckish Rogue 5.1

      Well thats the thing isn’t it, you can say things in opposition that you can’t say or do when in power

      its easy to talk transperancy when you’re the opposition but a different story when you’re in power as Jacinda “transparent” Ardern is now discovering

      • cleangreen 5.1.1

        Puckish Rougue; –

        So the last Government (National) recieved 105 emails from our NGO over five years as I am secretary of it, and only two of the 63 National ministers only answered (on one small section of only of a small”side issue”.)

        1/ Is this because we are not officially a government agency but an NGO Puckish Rougue?

        And more to the point (PR) question two; –

        2/ Are we to expect the same from this new Labour lead government too (PR) Puckish Rouge; – or are you just another “PR” for the last corrupt government ?

        • Puckish Rogue

          I’d have thought that if you campaign on openness and transparency then you should be open and transparent when in power

          • adam

            And donkey did the same, and I did not see you complaining when he was not transparent.

            Just pointing out your hypocrisy Puckish Rogue, just your hypocrisy.

          • cleangreen

            Predictable reply from an ‘obstructionist’ so do us all a favour & get over loosing Puckish Rougue eh!

            You failed to answer question 1+2 I asked you; –

            Yet is it because you are you afraid too?

            If so then you are guilty of what you claim Labour coalition are guilty of , now that we clearly see you are doing now?

            So dont blame Labour for not answering your fabricated 6200 spam emails (PR).

            You are totally wrong if you think labour will be stymied by your oppostion party’s little plan as the labour coalition wont be stopped.

    • Grey Area 5.2

      Sitting on a 2016 report into the benefits of rail because it doesn’t fit with dinosaur National Party “thinking”, that’s being transparent.

      • cleangreen 5.2.1

        1000% Grey area.

        Rail is the enemy to a former national Government with a man running it (s joyce) who is rightly called “the tarseal king” who we believe he has interests in trucking we have been informed.

      • Cinny 5.2.2

        + infinity Grey Area

  6. eco maori 6

    The show must go on I don’t see these people logic in following me around everywhere I go Im sure there are other people that deserve there attention. My neo liberal neighbour must have run out of fireworks you see there are a lot of these people in this little suburb they use fireworks to try and intimidat me. My dates were wrong it’s been 13 years of harassment from the Gisborne man and about 3 1/2 years that he landed his glider on the farm. The Rock one time I got challened to drink a jar of rum can’t remember what happened but a m8 told me I was getting a long with the best crayfishmans daughter lol the next time this guy 2 weeks before try to fight me I put him in his place he made out he was over it and his m8 challenged me to drink a jar of rum woke up the next morning broke ribbs squash nose this guy waited till I fell asleep and attacked me that was a good lesson I don’t get pissed and always have a gard up. Kia kaha

  7. Ad 7

    In Singapore, when the economy starts doing really well again, the public servants get a one month bonus:


    All 84,000 civil servants will receive a year-end Annual Variable Component (AVC) of one month’s pay – higher than the 0.5 month they received in 2016, according to their Public Service Division.

    That would motivate those lovelies in MBIE and Treasury and DPMC to pull their finger out and make some serious moves.

  8. Probably this will blow up – I was a bit surprised that she was on the defense team.


    • Andre 8.1

      Have you read Andrew Geddis’ piece on Pundit?


      That’s kinda the thing about human rights; even the worst of the bad guys have some. It’s part of the complexity of being a human rights lawyer that sometimes you’re defending them.

      • marty mars 8.1.1

        Thanks. I get human rights are universal and our system provides support for all sides and I struggle with it. I struggle that mass murderers get more rights than the many they murdered. I struggle that a sicko can do sicko things throughout their life and at the 11th hour have a big realisation and seek forgiveness. I struggle with these moral dilemmas.

        • Andre

          Working the defence is something I couldn’t do. My personal revulsion at someone’s deeds would really interfere with fulfilling my obligations to that person’s defence.

          Personally I’m of the opinion that someone that deliberately interferes with someone else’s human rights should forfeit their own. However, even in that mindset, there’s still the issue of determining what culpable deeds have actually been done. But as a general view, it’s at odds with the whole philosophical structure around justice that we’ve built up over time. And I’m really not interested in trying to think through the wrinkles of trying to replace that structure, especially since there’s no chance significant change will happen. At best there will be tinkering around the edges.

          • marty mars

            Yep I’m a bit like you on all that. I tend to imagine neutral is a fallacy in a lawyer anyway but compartmentalism isn’t.

          • RedLogix

            Without wanting to selectively misquote you:

            Personally I’m of the opinion that someone that deliberately interferes with someone else’s human rights should forfeit their own.

            as I think you clearly understand, the whole point of a trial is to determine culpability as an outcome, not as an apriori assumption. Or to put it in the more familiar parlance “innocent until proven guilty”.

            That’s not just a human right, it’s a very real protection we afford defendants due to the enormous disparity of resources between the state and the individual. From this came another famous legal dictum ‘that it’s better ten guilty people go free than one innocent person be convicted”. In other words it is a concious feature of our legal system to weight the odds in favour of the defendants. Even culpable ones.

            Part of the problem here is the internet has let us all indulge our fantasies of playing at judge, jury and executioner to the extent that these old and important ideas have become diminished, sometimes dismissed altogether.

            • marty mars

              They are just ideas not truths or absolutes, they are human conceived and made and thus are fallable and subjective.

              For instance, innocent until proven guilty etc is mocked by police and judicial discrimination based on skin colour!!!

            • Andre

              Those are all points that need to be repeatedly hammered, particularly with the likes of Quin that don’t get it.

              But I think your point below at 8.2 expresses a key idea most concisely: if the accused doesn’t have a capable defense team, then the whole process lacks legitimacy. In that context, the defense is just as important as the prosecution for delivering justice. For the victims as well as broader society.

        • Molly

          There is also the idea, that the defense is as robust and lawful as possible, reducing the chance of a mistrial or a later successful appeal.

          The justice system needs to be robust and competent and lawyers with integrity on both sides will improve it.

    • RedLogix 8.2

      Her final quote nails it:

      Ghahraman said she has never met Quin, but that his comments showed “an embarrassing lapse in understanding”.

      “No one is saying there is no such thing as genocide. It’s like saying a defence lawyer [defending someone charged with murder] in our justice system here is a murder-denier.

      The whole point is that in order for a trial to have any legitimacy it’s essential for the defendants to have access to a legal defense. Someone has to do this. Quin’s failure to understand is not just embarrassing, it’s kind of chilling.

      • Muttonbird 8.2.1

        Very odd. His point seems to be that defence lawyers somehow endorse their client’s alleged crimes and that to be a defence lawyer you mustn’t have strong morals.

        Quin seems a vindictive type and I suspect he’s jealous of other’s achievements.

        • marty mars

          He seems unhappy with the website info where it played up certain aspects.

          • Muttonbird

            I read the opposite. That he didn’t have much problem with the green website (I did read that somewhere but can’t find it), but that she chose to work on the defence team saying, “of all the ways to save the world, she chose to send killers back to the villages where their victims’ families are trying to rebuild their lives.”

            He must find all defence work reprehensible.

        • RedLogix

          Most likely Quin has just picked up the ‘doofus of the week’ award off Nick Smith, but it’s an especially bizarre charge to lay against her, given what I personally understand of Gharaman’s family story,

      • One Anonymous Bloke 8.2.2

        It’s kind of right wing nut job.

      • marty mars 8.2.3

        What about mob lawyers – are they just giving their clients a fair go. Lawyers are just like other people – fallable, greedy, stupid and selfish – and with all the qreat qualities too, like compassion.

        I get the system and I find it challenging as well.

        • One Anonymous Bloke

          ‘Everyone’ hates defence lawyers until they’re accused of something.

        • RedLogix

          All those things may well be true in general marty, but in this instance it’s was a young barrister doing tough work, (pro bono IIRC) in a tough environment for all the right reasons.

          Indeed that’s the main focus of the interview; the vast gulf between the realities on the ground in Rwanda and NZ.

          • marty mars

            There are lots of jobs I couldn’t and wouldn’t do and I have some admiration and at least respect for those that can, even with the personal cost that this must entail for them. This is one of those cases.

        • Macro

          Marty is it ok for a lawyer to work for a company that sells a legal product that has lead to the death of millions world wide?

          • marty mars

            I think moral questions are often the most intellectually interesting.

            I think yes and also no if they ignored evidence in their defence/legal/work with the company to ensure the company could continue to make profit. Hard to prove though ☺

            • Macro

              But isn’t that the task of lawyers working for a company to protect the “rights” of the company to sell it’s wares? And you are aware that National’s Chris Bishop worked for Phillip Morris?
              And the task of a defence lawyer is to protect the rights of their client – no matter how heinous their crime may have been.
              Should a rapist be given a fair trial or a paedophile? Of course they must -otherwise our society descends into lawlessness, such as was the case in Rwanda. If the accused were to receive no defence, then the subsequent conviction would have no more merit than the summary justice they metered out to those they slaughtered.

              • Yes I understand all that and I still find it morally murky for me.

                • Macro

                  Unfortunately Marty – as G.E. Moore (a late British Philosopher) explained “goodness” is like “redness” – it is a simple concept that cannot be broken down into constituent parts. Either you perceive redness or you don’t.
                  I can only say that by their actions you shall know them. Does Gloriz act in a good way or a bad way? Having met her and seen the work she has done (not only acting as a defence lawyer) she is a good person – as are all the Green MPs.
                  I hope that is of some help.

      • Grantoc 8.2.4

        I agree with your comments about legal process Redlogix.

        But Im not sure though if thats the issue here. Isn’t it that Ghahraman and the Greens deliberately fudged her role in the Riwanda war crimes legal process so that the punters would assume that she was on the side of the angels; not the devils, so to speak.

        Therein lies her and the Greens problem.

        • Macro

          She was perfectly open about what her role was in Rwanda before the Election – because she was a Green candidate – such news was decided not to be published by the MSM – because of “lack of space”. Well I guess it’s much more important to tell us about Bill’s smile

    • Puckish Rogue 8.3

      I have no problems with her being on the defense team though why you’d volunteer is beyond me but her profile page on the Green website was, at best, misleading:

      “Golriz has lived and worked in Africa, The Hague and Cambodia, putting on trial world leaders for abusing their power.”

      Says nothing about defending world leaders either and she herself says “could be clearer”

      • adam 8.3.1

        How those panama papers working out Puckish Rouge? Or the polls buddy? How many more lies do we have to suffer though? Oh wait – you could just revert to type as a racist we all know you are…

        Still spinning and lying I see – Oh well can’t be helped, I suppose. It’s what you do.

      • lprent 8.3.2

        “Golriz has lived and worked in Africa, The Hague and Cambodia, putting on trial world leaders for abusing their power.”
        Says nothing about defending world leaders either and she herself says “could be clearer”

        Completely irrelevant. How long is the bio? A few paragraphs?

        When I do my three page CV I barely touch the surface of anything on my work history. You’re looking at what I did ina company for 2-4 or even 11 years in a single paragraph. It was like that from when I was 26. By that time I’d had a 10 year work history and several degrees. It had skim paragraphs about time in the army, working as a farm hand, as a barman, a factory machine operator, technical salesman, factory manager, and computer support.

        If you want to be be a idiot, then go ahead. Just don’t be surprised if people sum up your CV as “FOOL”

      • Macro 8.3.3

        And we have a lawyer in Parliament who worked for a tobacco company….
        (tobacco related deaths are around 5 million per year)

  9. Sparky 9

    This caught my attention. Not sure why they feel we need more cops but anyway…..


  10. Bill 10

    US is seeking the extradition of a British guy (Lauri) for stuff English courts didn’t lay charges over. And apparently …

    The US government know that their claims against Lauri will never be tested in court. The way extradition works means that prosecutors do not have to show any evidence to the British authorities. And because those US prosecutors reserve the right to try Lauri three times, in three different districts, with a potential sentence of 99 years, they know he would be under enormous pressure to accept a plea bargain.

    Ninety-seven per cent of federal defendants in the United States never get a trial because they are offered a choice of either accepting years in prison if they plead guilty or risking decades to have their day in court. What Lauri is being offered in the United States is not a trial but blackmail with a potential life sentence attached.


  11. Morrissey 11

    State-sponsored adulation of shepherd-murderer moves into overdrive

    Tuesday 28 November 2017

    RNZ National, 7:24 a.m.
    GUYON ESPINER: …. [drily amused] I’ve been taken to task for asking what Harry’s going to wear.
    SUSIE FERGUSON: It’ll be a uniform, of course!
    GUYON ESPINER: Of course it will. ….. [grovel, grovel…]

    three, a.m. show, 7:25 a.m.
    DUNCAN GARNER: Royal correspondent Dicky Arbiter, good morning!
    DICKY ARBITER: [beaming] The Twitter universe has come alight! …[widens his eyes to indicate his great joy]… Like any young couple in love, they’re not hiding their love for each other!
    AMANDA GILLIES: She wore a BEAUTIFUL new coat, designed by Line the Label. What does this mean for dress designers in the U.K.?….[grovel]….
    DICKY ARBITER: They’ll look on her as they did Harry’s mother—as a clothes horse rather than a work horse. They do a tremendous amount of good work; let’s focus on what they DO rather than on what they wear, for a change.
    DUNCAN GARNER: Yeah, I’m WITH you on this!
    DICKY ARBITER: [worshipfully] Harry was a soldier. He was at the sharp end in Afghanistan. …. The couple meeting and they see each other across a crowded room, and that’s IT!… They just clicked, just like a jigsaw puzzle. … Younger people see them as role models. ….

    7:52 a.m.
    DUNCAN GARNER: Are you interested in the royal engagement? Some of you are. Some of you aren’t at all! That’s next!

    Advertisements (paid ones, not free ones for the Royal Family)….

    7:54 a.m.
    DUNCAN GARNER: Okay, welcome back. So much feedback for the royal wedding!

    MARK RICHARDSON: Prince Harry was happy before this American came along. Well maybe not happy, but he was having a good time.

    AMANDA: He wasn’t happy, he’s said that.

    DUNCAN GARNER: Our poll question this morning is: “Do you care about the royal engagement between Prince Harry and Mehan Markle?” Well, not everybody does, it seems. Stuey says: “There are lots of unsung heroes in the community. He’s a privileged pillock and welfare beneficiary.”

    The others in the studio—Gillies, Richardson, and social presenter Shannon Redstall—titter with pity and amusement.

    DUNCAN GARNER: The woooorld of Stuey! I tell you what, Stuey, you can be the producer for the next sixty-threee minutes, and you can decide what’s going to be on the television.

    8:02 a.m.
    DUNCAN GARNER: Coming up on our panel is Rawdon Christie, broadcaster and royalist. We’ll be talking about Prince Harry, because Stuey hasn’t had enough of that yet…

    8:35 a.m.
    DUNCAN GARNER: All right, some things we don’t know about Meghan Markle. Everybody’s talking about this right now! …She has two adopted dogs, Bogart and, and….
    DUNCAN GARNER: Yes! You know that? …. Mark, you seem sad.
    MARK RICHARDSON: He was my guy. He was my royal guy!

    8:42 a.m.
    DUNCAN GARNER: We can’t get away from royal news today! It appears the royal couple may be related….

    Open mike 08/12/2014

    • Grey Area 11.1

      I think you’ll find it was Mihinirangi Forbes.

      • Morrissey 11.1.1

        Thank you, it was Mihi Forbes. That slurping and licking sound coming from Espiner’s microphone somewhat diverted my attention.

        • Morrissey

          The groveling continues….

          Jim MORA: What is it about this union that makes people so joyful? Is there hope for the world in it, or what?

          …..extended groveling from Mora and his two Panelists continues for three minutes….

          The Panel, RNZ National, 4:46 p.m.

  12. cleangreen 12

    Awesome transcribing there Morrissey,

    Is that done by electronic voice recognition or done manually by you?

    I as a secretary need the program if it is done electronically.

  13. Morrissey 13

    No. 12: Prince Harry

    Groping in England….

    Prince Harry has been photographed groping and kissing girls in a London nightclub. Britain’s The Sun newspaper printed pictures – taken earlier this summer – of Harry and his brother Prince William, partying at London’s Boujis nightclub. … He had his hands all over her and was kissing her on the face. At one point he reached his arm around her and gave her a proper grope on her breast. ….

    Groping and snorting in Las Vegas…

    The giggling prince’s demeanour here is a world away from his attitude following the firestorm of controversy that engulfed him after his fun and games in his hotel room. He and his friends took over a £1,000-a-day VIP bungalow at the MGM Grand Hotel for one of its infamous Wet Republic pool parties.

    These raucous alcohol-fuelled events are popular in Vegas and involve several thousand young people attempting to get as drunk as humanly possible while pulling members of the opposite sex in the fierce sunshine.

    By the end of the day, say those with intimate knowledge of such events, the pools contain more urine than water and couples are openly having sex.


    “GROPERS” is presented by GroperWatch, a division of Daisycutter Sports Inc.
    No.1 George Herbert Walker Bush; No. 2 Bill O’Reilly; No. 3 Al Franken; No. 4 Robin Brooke; No. 5 Lester Beck; No. 6 Arnold Schwarzenegger; No. 7 Joe Biden; No. 8 Rolf Harris; No. 9 Harold Bloom; No. 10 Sir Jimmy Savile; No. 11 Dr Morgan Fahey

    • ThatcherForEver 13.1

      Shit, now using The Sun and Daily Mail as your news sources….

      • Morrissey 13.1.1

        Putting aside their smirking and winking approval of Prince Harry’s appalling behaviour, what is inaccurate in either of those accounts?

    • cleangreen 13.2


      You have great memory recall; – I guess nmy chemical poisoning back in 1992 while last working in Canada hurt my brain as I now have poor memory recall.

      Especially if I now get exposed to some perfume’s, diesel exhaust, synthetic rubber smells, and many others.

      That is why I love things to be ‘cleangreen’.

      So I need to use a tape recording and a “very patient wife of 45 yrs” to transcribe the event. (she is my one love, – once married; – us both)

      Thanks for all that information morrissey.

    • If you’re going to run this series, you really ought to read up a little about “consent” – what it means and how it might be relevant to these posts. Because otherwise you could just end up looking like a grumpy old man who needs to get laid.

      • cleangreen 13.3.1

        Shit Psycho Milt,

        Thats a bit harsh on Morrissey,

        I find his scribbing of public affairs issues quite refreshing.

        Especially since the ‘media’ fail to cover ‘in depth’ public affairs issues today Morrissey is trying to expose them in a transcibed way and if the persons involved dont like their words repeated were are we left then????

        Democracy is born from free speech.

        • ThatcherForEver

          His sources include “The Sun” and “The Daily Mail”.
          Geat “credible” sources of info.
          Interesting how the Left like to lambast the media; until a story is published that suits their way of thinking

        • Psycho Milt

          Different Morrissey comment, Cleangreen. This is the one about gropers, not the radio transcript.

          My issue with it is it makes no case for the sexual activity being non-consensual and yet lumps it in with the activities of people like Rolf Harris and Jimmy Saville. What makes a “groper” is lack of consent, not the fact of touching someone.

      • Morrissey 13.3.2

        Fair comment, Milt, assuming Prince Harry respected the women he groped. I find that highly unlikely. The women seemed to be initially upset but were eventually flustered into smiling and accepting the mistreatment. Donald Trump and Harvey Weinstein indulged in similar behaviour, and their victims were socialized into grinning and bearing it, or simply keeping quiet.

        • Psycho Milt

          Who gives a rat’s ass whether he respected them? Get hold of a dictionary and look up the word “consent” before you go posting about it.

          • Morrissey

            Sure, give that coke-snorting lout the benefit of the doubt if you want. You think someone who kills shepherds from the sanctuary of a helicopter gunship, then soaks up the adulation of the Murdoch press which dubbed him “The Big H”, gropes only willing women at those orgies.

            I have a bridge to sell you if you’re interested.

  14. joe90 14

    Addled dotard shows his condescending racist slip.

    President Trump: "We have a representative in Congress who they say was here a long time ago. They call her 'Pocahontas.'" pic.twitter.com/9zML2RVFtP— CSPAN (@cspan) November 27, 2017

    WASHINGTON—For a year and a half, President Donald Trump has been denounced by Native American leaders for calling Democratic Sen. Elizabeth Warren “Pocahontas.”

    He just did it again — at an event honouring Native American war heroes.

    Trump held a White House ceremony on Monday to celebrate Navajo “code talkers,” who used their language to transmit secret messages during the Second World War. After complimenting the code talkers, Trump said, “You were here long before any of us were here. Although we have a representative in Congress who they say was here a long time ago. They call her Pocahontas.”


    The jab at Warren was not the only part of the Monday event that was called offensive. Trump decided to make the speech in front of a portrait of president Andrew Jackson, who is notorious among Native Americans for signing the 1830 Indian Removal Act that forced Natives off of their land and produced thousands of deaths.

    Trump also referred to his chief of staff John Kelly as “the chief.” And he suggested he was not personally familiar with the history of the code talkers.

    “And I have to say, I said to General Kelly, I said, general, how good — here he is, right there, the chief; he’s the general and the chief — I said, how good were these code talkers?” he said.

    Kelly’s response, according to Trump: “Sir, you have no idea. You have no idea how great they were.”


  15. greywarshark 15

    Glyphosate. Another 5 years for it as part of Roundup by the EU on the basis of it possibly being carcinogenic but one can’t be sure till enough people die.
    It came up after WW2, where chemicals were used regularly to deadly effect.

    Glyphosate was first synthesized in 1950 by Swiss chemist Henry Martin, who worked for the Swiss company Cilag. The work was never published.[18]:1 Stauffer Chemical patented the agent as a chemical chelator in 1964 as it binds and removes minerals such as calcium, magnesium, manganese, copper, and zinc.[19]

    The European Chemicals Agency (ECHA) maintained their current classification of glyphosate as a substance causing serious eye damage and as a substance toxic to aquatic life, but did not find evidence implicating it to be a carcinogen, a mutagen, toxic to reproduction, nor toxic to specific organs.[17]

    Monsanto’s last commercially relevant United States patent expired in 2000….
    Farmers quickly adopted glyphosate, especially after Monsanto introduced glyphosate-resistant Roundup Ready crops, enabling farmers to kill weeds without killing their crops. In 2007, glyphosate was the most used herbicide in the United States’ agricultural sector and the second-most used in home and garden (2,4-D being the most used)…

    In many cities, glyphosate is sprayed along the sidewalks and streets, as well as crevices in between pavement where weeds often grow. However, up to 24% of glyphosate applied to hard surfaces can be run off by water….

    In 2015, 89% of corn, 94% of soybeans, and 89% of cotton produced in the United States were genetically modified to be herbicide-tolerant….

    Use of glyphosate to clear milkweed along roads and fields may have contributed to a decline in monarch butterfly populations in the Midwestern United States.[172] Along with deforestation and adverse weather conditions,[173] the decrease in milkweed contributed to an 81% decline in monarchs.[174][175] The Natural Resources Defense Council (NRDC) filed a suit in 2015 against the EPA, in which it is argued that the agency ignored warnings about the dangers of glyphosate usage for monarchs.[176]…

    (No heading for honey bees though)- so :

    Seems like they are prepared to throw stuff at bees and as long as they keep flying, then the bad individual or combined effects of these chemicals is downplayed.

    Then on Radionz we are suffering from leptospirosis which there have been another 93 in NZ for half the year. On and on and our environment and health constantly compromised.

  16. beatie 16


    More ‘blame the victim’ bullshit. Apparently throwing more money at beneficiaries won’t help. Why not? It helps everyone else.

    • greywarshark 16.1

      The NZ Initiative a RW thinktank. And lying in heaps.
      (Looking at the link that beatie gives above.) They present themselves as cool and rational and informed. They cherry pick the information they disseminate. They quote macro information, quote averages, and then present us with little direct information about individual groups.

      With double the income-per-person than what was in 1970, a minimum wage up 50 per cent (inflation adjusted) and better medical care boosting life expectancy and reducing child mortality, you’d think New Zealand would be in its heyday.

      It sounds good – double the income of 1970 – how was the inflation adjustment done, what was the base line, apples with apples? Housing has gone up horrendously since 1970, rentals are up, accommodation supplement always trails and the system is its own moral hazard. So that wouldn’t be rosy, but it isn’t mentioned. Instead we hear about child mortality, a nationwide measure, and life expectancy which is a population measure that is of vague concern to someone trying to manage on a pension.

      Dr Bryce Wilkinson is just another RW fellow traveller packing a good story against beneficiaries whose opinion and solutions are discounted when pitted against a comfortable professional RW bottom, or even an erect spinal column of bias which is the healthy method of IT work now; (standing, perhaps they could let Peter try it out).

      [Peter] has experience in technology and IT but isn’t able to sit in an office chair for longer than three minutes without getting excruciating pain.
      “They should do a proper work assessment to see what my experience is and what jobs I can do based on my ability. I’m happy to work from home,” Peter said.
      “To me they’re just trying to save costs without any care for the long-term solutions for the beneficiary.”

      Wilkinson said a beneficiary’s shortage of money was a symptom rather than a cause of poverty. Instead efforts needed to be made to address drug addiction, alcoholism, mental illness, low skills, poor parenting and a lack of understanding of work habits.
      Policies that increase job and income growth must be valued to complement welfare. The report stated the welfare system should “nourish rather than smother self-help”.
      “State welfare support is a balancing act. A good system must guard against beneficiaries who could work but do not. This is a waste of human potential and an unwarranted burden on their fellow citizens.”

      One notices, one does, the little homily at the end from the stern but just and prudent arbiter of these lives of people who are faulty and unable to take advantage of opportunities that are commonly available, for those who have the ability to exert themselves./sarc

      The slimy words of callous, self-centred people are for the purpose of impressing their peer group in society, as to whose fault it is that ‘these people’ are languishing out there. However the dossier that TS has built up over the years gives us examples that ensure we understand the problem in the round, the whole vicious circle that ensures that the welfare system doesn’t work, because the RW don’t want a good, working, society of happy people. Such people are harder to squeeze the last juice out of.

  17. joe90 17

    RWNJ pays a woman to pretend to be a victim of sexual assault in an effort to discredit reporting about the sexual assault of women and girls.

    Take a bow filth, that really does take the biscuit.


    • Andre 17.1

      Looks like it’s Project Veritas and James O’Keefe again, huh? Such a charming lad.

      • joe90 17.1.1


        A brief history of James O'Keefe self-owns, in light of today's WaPo story 1/— Will Sommer (@willsommer) November 27, 2017

        • greywarshark

          Interesting but there appears to be a patch with two bits that don’t join up.
          Don’t know how that gets straightened out.

  18. piper 18

    Its now settling down now,holiday time ,to respect our coalition government,as others chance to talk about democracy,as three political parties say, this is our march to our lands care.

  19. piper 19

    Who in the national party,is going to release the conversations with New Zealand First,who they attempted to negotiate a control deal.

    • weka 19.1

      good point.

    • NewsFlash 19.2

      The 38 page doco that the Nats are trying to obtain from the Coalition has been reduced to 33 pages because someone changed the FONT size!!!

    • Cinny 19.3

      I reckon the only reason the nats want to see it is because they want to know why and how they missed out, they just aren’t handling losing the election very well at all.

  20. piper 20

    Time the duck,to say,open debate,speakers are open to say,under discrection.However,general debate,is not allowed with notes.

  21. greywarshark 21

    It’s funny (strange) how so many are going through this small item from Golriz sieving it word by word like someone panning for gold.

    Yet Key was here for decades and I don’t think anyone went through his past sorting out where his money actually came from. Did anyone actually know how much he made from selling out a day before… from buying a penthouse that was being rezoned …. from not paying his full tax or by selling a day after the withholding period… etc. And it seemed to be his money that was the main attraction, that gave him gravitas. Once he had that it was such a laugh that he was okay, so free to not care about cheeky comments about peeing in the shower and other things like sitting in a cage with a jerk and a microphone.

    • Ed 21.1

      I think was liked the powerful finance industry that owns NZ’s corporate media.
      He was a useful puppet for them

      Golriz isn’t.

  22. Ffloyd 22

    Is anyone allowed to ask English what the contents of his 200 or so texts to his lady friend were about. I am sure Nz ers want to know. In the interest of transparency and all.

    • Anne 22.1

      But Floyd those texts (270 odd wasn’t it) were to do with his electorate – sort of like the electronic equivalent of “notes” between him and his local secretary. He didn’t believe they came under the auspices of the OIA. Now, someone else has said that just in the last 24 hrs. Oh that’s right, the Prime Minister. I guess she has taken her cue from the previous Prime Minister.

  23. eco maori 23

    Many thanks to all the teachers in NZ you have a very important job and I take my hat off to uses Ka pai

  24. piper 24

    Bill,cleaned up.

  25. David Mac 25

    Lets give im a good kickin then make him shout.

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]

  26. Antoine 26

    While we’re talking about Ms Ghahraman, my other problem with her is that she is a refugee who seeks to bring in more refugees. Feels a bit like a Trojan Horse scenario


    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]

  27. Tanz 27

    There is a reason that the Greens almost halved their voter support and lost seats this election…fringe party lunacy, shows what a bastard and undemocratic system MMP is (Winston 2017 may be the straw that broke the MMP back…eventually, and finally). Just as ex National MP Shane Ardern..

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