Open mike 29/09/2021

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, September 29th, 2021 - 199 comments
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Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

199 comments on “Open mike 29/09/2021 ”

  1. Can we stop or slow climate change?

    A 15.45 minute video sponsored by the Gates Foundation which makes sobering viewing.

    The conclusion seems to be: yes, we can, but by God, we’d better start acting quickly.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiw6_JakZFc

  2. Gezza 2

    .

    The Pook Family pukekos who forage up & down my stream became quite a large extended whanau. Sweety Pook produced broods at least 3 times a year.

    https://vimeo.com/262116975

    ALL the adults, & any adolescent birds who can fly, feed & care for the pooklets. Bluey, the Patriarch or Koro, slept with all broods of pooklets every night, until they were old enough to build their own individual sleeping nests.

    Another poster on a forum that I used to post on disagreed with my opinion about something one day, & dismissively suggested I go and talk to my pukekos about it!

    So I did ! Aspen Pook just happened to be nearby over the fence at morning tea time.

    I gave him a quick summary of the situation, & Aspen duly offered his view (on the poster, not the topic – try as I might I just could not get them interested in politics.)

    So I went back to the forum & gave him 🐧 Aspen's opinion! 😎

    • DukeEll 3.1

      But Victoria is in lockdown, 270+ days of it. And it’s been world beating and lockdowns work to stop the spread.

      time for Dan Andrews and Jacinda Adern to admit defeat and allow that lockdowns won’t beat delta.

      • observer 3.1.1

        There have been many "lockdowns" around the world. The word is used for very different approaches. Ours in 2020 was unquestionably a success, while others were half-hearted and failed.

        I agree that Delta 2021 is tougher to beat. But when alternative actions to "lockdown" are proposed, we have to be hard-headed and honest about what they really entail.

        Part of Victoria's "lockdown" was the use of private security (unlike NZ) and the same has been suggested by opposition parties here. But in Victoria the security breach – and virus outbreak – was so bad it led to a full inquiry and damning findings by the judge.

        Unfortunately many of the alternatives are presented as easy options, when they are anything but.

        • I Feel Love 3.1.1.1

          & Victorias lockdown is barely comparable to NZs, apples & oranges. Lockdowns do work, unfortunately, and only work with public buy in. Crys of "we gotta give up!" undermine that public buy in & will ensure we clog up our crappy health system & a lot of sick &/or dead people.

          Nope, Labour are doing the right thing, until science says otherwise.

        • DukeEll 3.1.1.2

          Sounds the like arguments for socialism, <i> it wasn't real socialism</i>

          • Kiwijoker 3.1.1.2.1

            Of course if you get the little flu you couldn’t in all good conscience partake of our socialist health facilities.

            • DukeEll 3.1.1.2.1.1

              I'm double jabbed, wear a mask and don't have comorbities. As i'm responsible for my part in society beating this, it's unlikely i'll need too.

              buuuutttt.. If i did need it then that's the price society pays for me paying taxes and acting responsibly.

              Public goods aren't socialism.

          • McFlock 3.1.1.2.2

            Not quite.

            The "no true socialism" thing is a bit like Christians predicting the apocalypse: the general direction might have been outlined, but there aren't any objective milestones along the way. Basically, everyone claims to be on the cusp of it, but heaven has not yet been achieved and everyone who claimed it before was in error: this time we're right, lol.

            But NZ and Vic L4 are objectively different, both in specific businesses allowed to be open to the public and in the aggregate stringency index. Also, Vic imposed just enough to induce fatigue, so now they have (possibly superspreader?) anti-lockdown riots.

      • bwaghorn 3.1.2

        If we hadn't opened the aussie bubble we would most likely be ok still. Its Arderns on misstepon covid imho.

        Pays to ignore the squeaky wheel sometimes.

        • Kiwijoker 3.1.2.1

          I’m still waiting for all those who kicked and screamed for the open border with Australia to take personal responsibility for our current situation. After all they were happy to take the revenue and profits.

        • Chris 3.1.2.2

          That squeaky wheel's back with a vengeance. I don't think this government's got the balls to fight it. A particular vaccination rate being enough will be more down to luck than anything else.

      • UncookedSelachimorpha 3.1.3

        "… Jacinda Adern to admit defeat and allow that lockdowns won’t beat delta. "

        This one might or might not beat Delta, but has already been a success in undoubtedly restraining what would otherwise be a huge outbreak by now

      • DS 3.1.4

        Our lockdown works because it's strict. Australia's ones were too muppety.

        • DukeEll 3.1.4.1

          Victoria's is recognised as being one of the strictest in the world.

          Many, many countries have found a path through covid and are now moving on to a new normal. New Zealand is lagging as our governments policy is lockdown until 90% where there is Delta.

          This is completely unrealistic. If you believe the "experts" 90% vaccination won't happen. if you believe lockdown critics, it's unfeasible to keep people locked down until 90% without major societal impacts that will last long after covid is globally accepted.

          Dogmatically sticking to lockdowns until 90% is failing this country.

          • joe90 3.1.4.1.1

            Victoria's is recognised as being one of the strictest in the world.

            nah

            https://twitter.com/Thoughtfulnz/status/1440084603956461571

          • Ad 3.1.4.1.2

            We're slow but not disastrous. 8 new infections yesterday.

            Next Monday isn't too long to wait now.

            First one to the hairdressers wins.

          • Incognito 3.1.4.1.3

            Please stop spamming this site with your reckons and other brain farts.

            For starters, what is/was the stringency index of Victoria during its lockdown. Links required and not to other/more reckons.

            What does the Horizon survey show is the possible vaccine uptake of the eligible population of 12+ in NZ? Look it up, Google is your friend. The onus is on you to provide support for your reckons.

            Lockdown are not permanent measures, they’re temporary ones. The main reason lockdowns are less effective or fail is because breaches, same as breaches at the border and/or MIQ. When there’s a breach or leak the appropriate action is to correct it not throw away the baby with the bathwater and spit the dummy while getting your nappies in a twist.

            Hospitalisation, ICU, and death are major societal impacts too.

            Why do you believe “experts” and “lockdown critics” without any critical analysis?

            • DukeEll 3.1.4.1.3.1

              I don't believe them without critical analysis. I'm questioning the pathway through their rhetoric.

              Lockdowns cant' be permanent, but when they're the only tool in the toolbox as you haven't been to the hardware store in preparation, you need use your one hammer many times to insert the screws.

              Stingency index? does it really matter? the lockdown isn't working. But as a good little authoritarian your response to lockdowns not working is new, better, more stringent lockdowns

              Horizons poll is based on the opinion of survey respondents saying they would get the jab, which could take us to 90%. that’s a reckon

              • Incognito

                Countering rhetoric with reckons is a mug’s game. You believe your own ‘critical analysis’, that much is clear.

                Lockdowns are not permanent measures. You seem to want to take them off the table and out of the toolbox forever with a written pledge by Government and Dr Bloomfield that they will never ever use Level 4 lockdowns again even when people are dropping like dead flies. Might have to change at least one Health Act. Mate, you’re dreaming!

                Lockdown isn’t working because you say so? ‘kay, enough said.

                Correcting breaches and leaks in/of our public health measures is not the same as “more stringent lockdowns”. Before you irk me more with putting words and meanings in my mouth you’d better start reading comments here better.

                I see you didn’t find the Horizon poll. You can find it in my recent (https://thestandard.org.nz/fearmongering-or-telling-it-how-it-is/). The potential uptake was 85.5% of the eligible 12+ population based on a scientifically conducted survey.

                These results are from an online survey of 2,334 respondents in New Zealand aged 16 years of age or over. The survey was conducted between 24 and 29 August, 2021.

                The sample is weighted on age, gender, employment status, ethnicity, personal income and region to match the 16+ population and at the most recent census. It is also weighted to reflect the overall percentage of New Zealanders 16+ vaccinated as at 11:59pm on 29 August 20211.

                At a 95% confidence level, the survey has a maximum margin of error of ±2.0% overall.

                That’s a whole load of ‘reckons’ there plus a comparison with all the previous surveys. However, as a true hard-out post-modernist, you think that your reckon is equal to that!?

          • Drowsy M. Kram 3.1.4.1.4

            Many, many countries have found a path through covid and are now moving on to a new normal.

            The UK's "new normal" yesterday was 34,526 new cases and 167 deaths.
            The US's "new normal" yesterday was 61,570 new cases and 1,217 deaths.
            https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

            One reason this "new normal" is 'acceptable' in the USA and the UK is that the governments of those countries failed so abysmally to prioritise health.

            In the US of A, 710,000 tragic deaths have been attributed to the COVID-19 pandemic. That's a deaths rate of ~0.21% (i.e. slightly more than one in 500 US citizens), about three and a half times more than the recorded global average. In the UK, one in 500 have also died from COVID-19.

            In NZ, 27 deaths have been officially attributed to the pandemic, giving a death rate of 0.00054%, 110 times less than the global average.

            The point is, the USA's COVID death rate is ~385 times greater than NZ's. In this particular pandemic, you want to be this bloke (NZ); you do not want to be like these blokes (MUSAGA; FreedumUK).

            Unite against COVID-19
            https://covid19.govt.nz

          • DS 3.1.4.1.5

            That "new normal" you describe has mountains of corpses. If keeping our people alive is failure, then I'm happy enough with failure.

          • UncookedSelachimorpha 3.1.4.1.6

            "New Zealand is lagging as our governments policy is lockdown until 90% where there is Delta. "

            To my knowledge the government has never specified a percentage. You might be thinking of National there…

          • Kiwijoker 3.1.4.1.7

            Your narrative is just a repetition of the opinions of people like Key, Act and the brown nosing mindless mainstream media. The only thing you left out was the bit about Jacinta creating a “ climate of fear”.

            An “orchestrated litany of lies” seems to be an apt description.

          • Patricia Bremner 3.1.4.1.8

            Dukell, so Jacinda is 'dogmatic'!! Wow it was 'fixated' formerly.

            How is "lock down failing this country"? Facts.

            Now that is dogmatic, and fixated on "open up".

      • Tricledrown 3.1.5

        Dupe of feral with only 8 cases in NZ as opposed to 800 in Victoria you are spreading the virus of misinformation.

        Trying to bundle one jurisdiction into a totally different country with borders and NZ's health system which can't cope with even small numbers of covid patients.

      • Gabby 3.1.6

        It's been a fairly crap lockdown. Ockyland might not have the level of social cohesion it prides itself on.

      • Patricia Bremner 3.1.7

        Not our type of lockdown. e.g. Elite swimming still happened. 5 people to visit!!

  3. Jester 4

    Oh dear, it doesn't sound promising next week for Auckland with headlines in Stuff like "Auckland's move to level 2 unlikely if status quo continues". When you click on the article the headline changes to below that doesn't sound as bad.

    Covid-19: Auckland's boundary 'critical' if region moves down alert level – expert | Stuff.co.nz

  4. dv 5

    Geez
    Re Victoria
    There were thousands out on the streets protesting the lockdown- that probably accelerated the spread.

    So don't have lockdowns and have thousands out on the street and that will stop the spread.

    DUH

  5. UncookedSelachimorpha 6

    Interesting article from Ken Loach today on the current state of the UK Labour Party.

    For the Labour right, success in elections comes from reassuring the ruling class that its wealth and power are safe in Labour’s hands. The left must be reduced to its customary role of marching, demonstrating, a political sideshow. Rupert Murdoch will put his arm round Starmer or his successor, as he did with Blair.

    In a way it is useful for everyone to know for certain that UK Labour is no place for progressives, rather than deluding themselves. Will an alternative emerge?

  6. Gezza 7

    A SHOW OF CHINA'S FORCE IN THE AIR
    Al Jazeera English Sep 29, 2021

    China has shown off some of its most advanced aircraft, technology, and weaponry at its biggest air show.

    New prototype drones that can carry missiles and go on reconnaissance missions are on display in the city of Zhuhai.

    The show is being held as its rivalry with the US and other Western countries intensifies – along with disputes over the South China Sea and Taiwan.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7MWpuOJZiRU

    • Tricledrown 7.1

      Scary Gezza China is stretching its muslces .China has the technology and manufacturing capability to become the most advanced military on the planet.

      • tc 7.1.1

        Thanks in no small part on their ability to 'acquire' the technology others have developed.

      • Bruce 7.1.2

        Things maybe are not going so well there at the moment, this:

        https://www.reuters.com/world/china/chinas-power-crunch-begins-weigh-economic-outlook-2021-09-27/

        along with the building bubble bursting may keep them otherwise occupied

        • Patricia Bremner 7.1.2.1

          That show of might may be to shore up his image at home, similar to what the Russians used to do, and North Korea. Things are faltering in their economy.

      • McFlock 7.1.3

        we-ell not for a few years yet.

        It can definitely dominate the South China Sea, maybe take Taiwan if it's happy to get a bloody nose in the process, but there are a number of areas that will still take decades to develop.

        Their carrier force is still small and not yet anywhere close to the ballpark of 0 supercarrier task forces.

        Their long range strike capabilities are apparently limited by their engine tech (something about forming the turbine blades as cohernet individual crystal structures).

        Their hypersonic missiles are well-touted, but you need something to point them at. They mght or might not be able to have ubiqitous surveillance over SCS good enough to target vessels, but the Pacific in general? Probably not.

        And a lot of their tech is relatively untested. E.g. Russia sent SU57s to Syria along with personell and ground equipment (and a dismal effort by Kuznetsov).

        Anyone wonder why several NZ banks have had DDOS attacks and a major supermarket chain have sever IT disruptions recently? Someone's having fun: maybe a state actor just probing our infrastructure.

    • Ad 7.2

      Why do we need more uncritical war porn here?

      • roblogic 7.2.1

        Agreed. War with China will wipe out civilization in a flash. We were incredibly close. Trump was psychotic enough to push the red button. De-escalation please.

        • Gezza 7.2.1.1

          I’ve come to the conclusion that Xi wants any de-escalation to be on China’s terms. And unfortunately the Americans want it to be on the US’s terms.

          Both sides are really pushing hard at the edges of provoking the other. The Chinese by harrassing US & other foreign ships & planes, & the US and others by pointedly sailing into areas China’s claiming as ITS territorial waters.

          A major live-firing incident might not be all THAT far off. Then we will see whether one or both sides can calm down & negotiate. Xi, I worry, is possibly wanting to actually TEST China’s military against the US in some kind of a skirmish. What the US then does will be the critical factor, I imagine.

      • Gezza 7.2.2

        Sorry Ad. Didn’t mean as “uncritical war porn”. Saw it as relevant to the recent post on the CPTPP VS NUCLEAR SUBS, & the extensive commenting that that generated on China’s armament drive & its worryingly muscular foreign & military postures, re Taiwan & its claims to the South China Sea.

        This brief Aljaz tv news item looks at some of the most recent military hardware that the PRC is clearly adverstising to its potential adversaries. That drone they show is the biggest drone I think I’ve seen.

        There used to be in some quarters a belief that the Chinese weren’t great at inventing stuff, that they were basically copiers (same argument was often made about the Japanese). They’ve certainly been long-criticised for basically forcing foreign companies operating there to hand over details of their trade secrets – effectively purloining their intellectual property.

        But it appears to me that China is now fadt developing its own inventions – in areas such as AI & integrated military systems and hardware. It now seems to be past the point where it needs to get hold of other countries’ secrets.

        • Ad 7.2.2.1

          I'll generate a post on a China-related matter so we can focus the debate again.

          Generally I don't like video clips put up with very little commentary. Better to see one is capable of making a point.

  7. Stephen D 8

    National’s COVID plan is being released at 10.

    Presumably at the same time they will publish the modelling that tells them the number of cases to be expected, and the number of deaths.

    As another consequence of their plan, they also release their plans for instantly upgrading the ICU awards and how they are going to recruit the required doctors and nurses.

    It should make a fascinating read.

    • Muttonbird 8.1

      This very helpful graph by Gary Boyd is still live.

      It shows NZ is running a similar number of cases at day 43 after first Delta as Victoria. 5 weeks later Victoria just registered over 1000 new cases.

      That is what would be in store for us under the National Party plan.

      https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-19-09-2021/#comment-1817021

    • Tricledrown 8.2

      Nationals policy is stating the obvious pathetic publicity stunt.

    • joe90 8.3

      They care about their donor's businesses, not lives.

      Judith Collins says the National Party plan to let Kiwis into the country for Christmas has been "expert-reviewed", but it apparently doesn't put a number on how many could die as a result.

      But like driving, Collins says it will include some risk.

      "When we drive cars, we understand that there are going to be some people who are injured and occasionally people will lose their lives," she told The AM Show on Wednesday. "It doesn't stop us driving cars."

      https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2021/09/coronavirus-judith-collins-urges-govt-to-adopt-national-s-covid-plan-admits-it-could-result-in-deaths.html

      • Incognito 8.3.1

        Wrong analogy. When they find a technical fault with a type of plane all those planes tend to be grounded until checked and fixed if necessary. Driving a car is too innocuous, unless it is a car without WOF & Rego by an unlicensed and uninsured driver who’s over the limit and in bad weather conditions.

        • alwyn 8.3.1.1

          "Driving a car is too innocuous".

          Innocuous. Definition "not harmful or offensive". Synonyms include " unexceptionable, harmless, unremarkable, commonplace."

          There were about 350 New Zealand road deaths in 2019 and 320 in 2020. That is an unremarkable number is it? At what point would you begin to worry and how does the number that might bother you compare to the number of Covid 19 deaths that you will accept?

          • Incognito 8.3.1.1.1

            Obviously, the analogy was, as was Judith’s, to create a certain perception with the average Kiwi, who’d find driving a car rather innocuous indeed, I reckon, and generally considers themselves a better than average driver. That same person is unlikely to grasp for statistics of deaths caused by traffic accidents and compare those to predictions of fatalities caused by Covid-19, unless they’re you, obviously.

            You’re grasping for straws to score a silly point, as per usual.

            Your comment is dismissed as useless and irrelevant, as per usual.

      • AB 8.3.2

        Perhaps Judith has a car that once it has an accident, causes the car it just hit to careen of wildly and crash into another 3 or 4 cars, which in turn do the same, and so on, infinitely. (Or at least till all the cars on the road at the time are munted.)

    • Stephen D 8.4

      https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/452528/covid-19-national-s-plan-calls-for-vaccination-targets-to-end-lockdowns-open-borders

      So nothing that is not already either being done, or in the pipeline.

      What a croc.

      National's 10-steps:

      • 1. Supercharge the vaccine rollout
      • 2. Order vaccine boosters
      • 3. Upgrade our contact tracing capability
      • 4. Roll out saliva testing at the border and in the community
      • 5. Roll out rapid tests for essential workers and in the community
      • 6. Create a dedicated agency, Te Korowai Kōkiri, to manage our Covid-19 response based in Manukau not Wellington
      • 7. Build purpose-built quarantine
      • 8. Launch a digital app for vaccination authentication
      • 9. Invest in next-generation Covid treatments
      • 10. Prepare our hospitals and expand ICU capacity
      • Muttonbird 8.4.1

        10 bullet points, eh? Have they just joined Keys' 5 and Seymour's 5 together?

      • roblogic 8.4.2
        1. we already have the fastest rollout in the world, after a slow start because of supply chain issues (caused by, I dunno, a global pandemic!!)

        2. already done. duh

        3. uh-huh. like how? by cutting the health system like your lot did last time.? hard to believe

        4. already doing it. beginning to suspect that this isn't a "plan" merely a bunch of misinformed talking points.

        5. see (4) above. repeating themselves now?

        6. more bureaucracy? is this an attempt to kneecap the MOH or something? yayy let's invent new agencies in the middle of a crisis.

        7. how, when will it be ready. can we also have lamborghinis and flying unicorns?

        8. duh. "we are [already] working on new digital certificates"

        9. like ivermectin? no thanks, lets follow proper medical advice

        10. translation: "our plan will crash the health system and give everyone Covid, but we will chuck some more beds in ICU, she'll be right"

      • roblogic 8.4.3

        lol I wouldn't want my name on this list either laugh

        According to Collins and Bishop, the plan has been peer reviewed by experts. However, during today's announcement the pair declined to reveal any names. "We're not naming the experts we engaged with publicly, because they're in prominent positions and don't wish to be named publicly," said Bishop.

        National’s ‘Opening Up’ plan – in a nutshell | The Spinoff

      • Ad 8.4.4

        As the Thai Bhuddist asked me with his bowl out: who gives a phuc?

      • KJT 8.4.5

        Don't forget. "And tax cuts"!

      • alwyn 8.4.6

        "So nothing that is not already either being done, or in the pipeline.".

        Are the current Government really supercharging the rollout? The figures say the the opposite seems to be happening. In the first week of September, when they seemed to be trying, there were 387,000 first doses. Last week there were only 144,000. Why the slowdown? We have only vaccinated 65% of the total population so far so there would appear to be about 1,800,000 people who have had a single dose yet..

        https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300417126/covid19-nz-first-doses-drop-to-lowest-rate-since-july-government-still-consulting-on-vaccine-certificates

        https://www.health.govt.nz/our-work/diseases-and-conditions/covid-19-novel-coronavirus/covid-19-data-and-statistics/covid-19-vaccine-data

        Have our Government ordered vaccine boosters? When did they do it, how many have been ordered and what are the delivery dates for these?

        Expand our ICU capacity? Have the current Government really done that? We may have a bit more equipment but we don't appear to have the people to use them. According to ICU doctor Craig Carr, who is the New Zealand regional chair of the Australia NZ Intensive Care Society. "We now have more equipment compared with 18 months ago, but we actually have very few extra staff, and in some instances, we've got fewer staff,"

        https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-coronavirus-delta-outbreak-have-we-boosted-hospital-icu-capacity-enough/BYKEKZQYWNBFKWQ5ZEE5Q5PWNE/

        That is just 3 of the 10 items but I can't see that, as you appear to believe, the current Government is already doing these things. I haven't bothered to check out the other 7 items but I don't really expect to find the Ardern Government is doing any better there. Perhaps you could provide some evidence that they are, if you can find any.

        • Barfly 8.4.6.1

          I understand it's 2 years to train an ICU nurse…..how's that crystal ball going

        • Tricledrown 8.4.6.2

          The number of ICU beds has increased from 150 to nearly 700.

          But that would need to increase to 2,000 or3,000 just to cope with Nationals policy.that would require 1,000's more trained staff do we steal them from other countries who are struggling.or do we wait 6 to 10 years of training to bring up the numbers.

          National can make any claims they like but none can be met because by the time they theoretically get into power 2023 the world will be different.

          Alwyn the govt has ordered nearly 6 million doses of astra zeneca. Millions of Johnson and johnson's vaccine.

          Then the govt will have over 2 million spare doses of Pfizer enough to give all vulnerable groups a booster dose.

          Mixing vaccines may give higher immunity.

          Luckily we have the research from countries in a far worse situation than us.

  8. i see that Hooton has crawled out from under his rock again. calls for govt to give up its Covid response, and civil disobedience if he doesn’t get his way. what a dork.

    Matthew Hooton on LinkedIn: Covid 19 Delta outbreak: Expert says 'very resistant' tail puts level

    • Jenny how to get there 9.1

      The scenes of violence and rioting in Australia against covid mandates and restrictions inflamed by Far Right figures and personalities.

      Convince me that Mathew Hooton is a far worst than a dork.

      Dictionary definition: Dork – A person regarded as stupid, foolish, awkward, clumsy, etc.

      Calling for, (inciting), civil disobedience, against the government's efforts to contain the virus, needs to be condemned in the harshest terms. In my opinion the words sabateur and traitor are not too harsh to describe Mathew Hooton.

      • Incognito 9.1.1

        Let’s see if I have this right.

        The scenes of violence and rioting in Australia against covid mandates and restrictions inflamed by Far Right figures and personalities.

        If opponents=bad then advocates=good

        • roblogic 9.1.1.1

          Not sure what you're saying there Incognito. But death-cult capitalism is self evidently "bad" for most of the human race, and the planet

          • Incognito 9.1.1.1.1

            Nah, I’m trying to capture Jenny’s apparent ‘reasoning’ in simple logical language, i.e. the enemy of enemy is my friend kind of stuff and everything else flowing from there. Way too much focus on who some of the protesters are and not enough of the reasons why some do join the protests. Another variation is shooting the messenger but not addressing the message. You can also see this here on TS in how some commenters want to deal with people who have questions, doubts, reservations, hesitations about getting vaccinated against Covid-19; it is not open-minded listening to others’ concerns but hardline exlusion to far-out corners of our public health system if not of our society in general. A public debate is needed, as always, but not on those terms. IMHO.

          • Jenny how to get there 9.1.1.1.2

            roblogic

            29 September 2021 at 11:42 am

            Not sure what you're saying there Incognito……

            (You're not the only one).

            Incognito

            29 September 2021

            Nah, I’m trying to capture Jenny’s apparent ‘reasoning’ in simple logical language,….

            …….A public debate is needed, as always, but not on those terms. IMHO.

            I have been very clear, that I think that this debate should be held with the various grass roots stake holders in society. Faith Groups, Unions, Employers, Sports Associations, etc.

            It would be great if you could tell us where and with whom in your Honest Opininion this needed public debate should be held.

            • Incognito 9.1.1.1.2.1

              Since you addressed this roblogic I won’t pre-empt his reply to you.

              The main difference between roblogic and you is that he gets it and you don’t, generally speaking.

            • roblogic 9.1.1.1.2.2

              OK, so we won't censure Hooton for treason after all? Boring 😛

              • Kiwijoker

                Remember what happened to Lord Haw Haw.

                • roblogic

                  I looked it up, interesting story. Yes Hooton is a propaganda merchant for the other team. I think some of his Covid reckons are dangerous and irresponsible, in the middle of a life threatening pandemic, but not quite in the category of treasonous communications in wartime

    • tc 9.2

      The paid shill does as requested.

      Soon he'll probably be pimping Jude's replacement as part of nationals PR machine just like he did with muller.

    • I Feel Love 9.3

      A few other RW "influencers" have also been hyping civil disobedience, & sad we're not like the Australians. I bet Hooton would be nowhere near the Frontline.

      In better & more sane news, the port workers are at 95% vaccinated! Showing disinformation can be fought against, & also very few people listen to fucking Hooton

    • Tricledrown 9.4

      If we were fighting a war Hooton would be locked up for undermining the effort .

  9. Stephen D 10

    The Locations of Interest list is down to under 100. Surely a good sign.

    https://www.health.govt.nz/our-work/diseases-and-conditions/covid-19-novel-coronavirus/covid-19-health-advice-public/contact-tracing-covid-19/covid-19-contact-tracing-locations-interest

    I don’t keep chickens, so entrail reading is not an option.

  10. joe90 11

    Bye.

    A North Carolina-based hospital system has fired roughly 175 unvaccinated employees for failing to comply with its vaccine mandate.

    Why it matters: It's one of the largest-ever cases of mass terminations spurred by a vaccine requirement. Over 99% of its 35,000 employees have adhered to the mandate, according to Novant director of media and influencer relations Megan Rivers.

    https://news.yahoo.com/north-carolina-hospital-system-fires-174903386.html

    • joe90 11.1

      Almost like mandates work…

      On Monday, as the deadline for vaccinations for about 600,000 nursing home and hospital workers arrived, it seemed that bet had proved to be at least partially correct.

      With just days or even hours to spare, thousands of health care workers got inoculated, according to health officials across the state. And while thousands more workers remained unvaccinated, and thus in danger of being suspended or fired, the rush of last-minute vaccinations appeared to blunt the worst-case scenarios for staffing shortages that some institutions had feared.

      […]

      In the Bronx, Dr. Eric Appelbaum, the chief medical officer at St. Barnabas Hospital, said that some unvaccinated employees who had been anxious about getting the shot had simply put the matter out of their minds — until the mandate made it impossible to ignore any longer.

      As recently as last Wednesday, more than 20 percent of the hospital’s roughly 3,000 staff members had yet to get their first dose. By late Monday morning, that number had plummeted to just 6 percent, Dr. Appelbaum said.

      https://archive.li/r9YYT (nyt)

  11. Jenny how to get there 12

    The vaccination campaign has 'hit a cliff'

    "First doses have dropped massively"

    Top down, mandated restrictions by the appointed authorities work to a point. But only to the point where they start to encounter resistance, non-compliance and possibly even hostile defiance.

    To get to 90% vaccination coverage, mandates, regulation and compulsion alone, will not be enough. We need to win hearts and minds as well.

    The government need to fund a society wide targeted information blitz.

    Every sector; Faith Groups, Unions, Employers, Sports Associations, need to be on board, and provided with the resources to encourage their parishoners, union members, employees, players & supporters, to get vaccinated.

    Your country needs you….

    Your church needs you….

    Your union needs you….

    Your employer needs you….

    Your family needs you….

    Get vaccinated

    • Incognito 12.1

      Henry Cooke didn’t mention the word “mandate” once. Only authoritarians and other fearful control freaks do, without giving it much thought, it seems.

      • Jenny how to get there 12.1.1

        Henry Cooke never mentioned the word mandate. I never said he did. I was talking about the government's mandated lockdowns, and other mandated restrictions, the internal border between Auckland and the rest of the country, and the MIQ facilities at the national border, both of which are continually dealings with openly defiant rule breakers. And more and more breaches.

        I was pointing out that these government mandated restrictions on freedom of movement, (which I support), have their limitations, especially if the government can't take the people with them.

        I was suggesting that we need to win people over to willingly support measures like vaccination, rather than force people to have vaccinations by top down mandates.

        I think this is a fair comment. I don't know how you can possibley make out that this comment, makes me an 'authoritarian, fearful control freak'?

        I am in fact a convinced democrat.

        The more democracy the better.

        So I can understand where you are coming from; Maybe you would like to explain your reasoning behind your ad hominem insults.

        • Incognito 12.1.1.1

          You said that “[t]op down, mandated restrictions by the appointed authorities work to a point” and that “[t]o get to 90% vaccination coverage, mandates [my bold], regulation and compulsion alone, will not be enough”. I suggest you learn to word your comments better if you’re not actually in favour of and advocating for mandates from above. As it stands, very many comments of yours come across with a distinct whiff of authoritarianism and its handmaid absolutism. Just saying.

          • Jenny how to get there 12.1.1.1.1

            "As it stands, very many comments of yours come across with a distinct whiff of authoritarianism and its handmaid absolutism. Just saying." Incognito

            You keep saying this, but never give an example. How about give us just one example, just one, of my "very many comments" that you claim "come across with a distinct whiff of authoritarianism".*
            |Even in this case. Dispite how you try and twist my meaning. I was very clear, I was not calling for more top down mandates. i was instead advocating an appeal to all groups to willingly support the government's vaccination campaign, How on earth you can claim that calling for more grass roots consultation with all the stakeholders in society rather than top down imposed mandates is something "Only authoritarians and other fearful control freaks do" escapes me.

            “Has a whiff of…” is an admission by you that your disagreement is a subjective view.

            This is not the first time that you have said you don't like "the smell" of my comments.

            An emotional response, suggestive of smell, whiff etc, are not objective fact based criticisms.

            (Typed words literally don't have a smell, even less so on a computer screen).

            I am sorry you disagree with my views, but I do not apologise for them, just because you disagree with them.

            All I ask is that if you don't like my views, but feel moved to comment on them, instead of indulging in fact free personal ad hominem insults, provide a rational fact based critique, of why I am wrong,

            You never know, we all might learn something.

            At the very least it will lift the level of debate.

            • Incognito 12.1.1.1.1.1

              You wrote this, and I’ve added my emphasis, so that you can follow my reading of it:

              To get to 90% vaccination coverage, mandates, regulation and compulsion alone, will not be enough. We need to win hearts and minds as well.

              That doesn’t read to me as “i [sic] was instead [my bold] advocating an appeal to all groups to willingly [my bold] support the government's vaccination campaign”.

              It reads to as in addition to. Your comments are ambiguous and lack clarity of meaning and they often don’t pass the sniff test.

              • Jenny how to get there

                There is no contradiction.

                I used the word 'instead' in the context of instead of mandated compliance alone. Not instead of all mandated compliance. You are deliberately trying to twist my meaning with selective cherry picking.

                I am not against all regulation, (and never said I was) My view is that it needs, as much as is possible to be done with a mandate. Simply imposing regulations especially around sensitive areas of people's freedom of movement, (lockdowns), and bodily intrusion, (injections). Disempowers people and leads to the sort of scenes we saw in Australia. We don't want that here. If we want to get to 90% vaccine coverage, (which is a very high bar,) it is my opinion, that it can't be done with compulsion alone.

                Therefore I suggested that the governent begin an outreach program to win over the various grass roots stakeholders in society. Unions, Faitth Groups, Sports Bodies, Employers, etc.

                I really can't understand your objection to such an idea.

                • Incognito

                  As usual, you’re going around in circles; so many words, so little clarity.

                  Let’s see whether you can shed any light on what you actually mean.

                  What specific “mandate”, “mandated compliance”, “regulation”, or “compulsion” do you have in mind when trying to achieve 90% vaccination coverage of the 12+ eligible population if it is not a mandate to get vaccinated?

                  Try keep your answer under 100 words and to the point, please.

                  • Jenny how to get there

                    '

                    Human beings are social creatures, generally speaking, where our peers go, we go.

                    If all the various disparate groups and organisations that make up our society can we won over to the vaccine campaign, their members will be won over too.

                    • Jenny how to get there

                      This initiative is being done in a partunership between the Canterbury District Health Board and local Businesses.

                      If we are to achieve the 90% target, which is something few countries have been able to achiever. It is my opinion; We need lots more initiatives like this.

                      '90%, we're worth it' Canterbury businesses get behind Covid-19 vaccination campaign

                      Lee Kenny and Cate Broughton – Sep 29 2021

                      …..An ambitious campaign has been launched to get 90 per cent of eligible Cantabrians jabbed by Labour Weekend – in less than four weeks time.

                      Businesses have thrown their weight behind the plan, which aims to make Canterbury the most Covid-19 protected region in the country.

                      …..Local marketing and communications company Harvey Cameron has collaborated with the Canterbury Clinical Network, the Canterbury District Health Board and the Canterbury Chamber of Commerce to produce a quick fire campaign – dubbed ‘90%​ Canterbury – we’re worth it’ – within days.

                      https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/126517374/90-were-worth-it-canterbury-businesses-get-behind-covid19-vaccination-campaign

                    • Incognito

                      That doesn’t answer the question not does it provide any clarity of what you meant, just more bedazzled befuzzled irrelevant nonsense. At least you kept it <100 words, this time although you replied to yourself (!?) with something else that has no hint of “mandate”, “mandated compliance”, “regulation”, or “compulsion”, which is consistent with the piece by their colleague and fellow Stuff author Henry Cooke, as I commented on previously.

    • Tricledrown 12.2

      No travel on airplanes without vaccination and testing.

      Social media should shut down conspiracy theorists or at the very least promote science and vaccine efficacy.

      • Gypsy 12.2.1

        "Social media should shut down conspiracy theorists or at the very least promote science and vaccine efficacy."

        Shutting them down is giving them currency. They simply find another platform, and scream how true they must be because they were shut down. Some real medical professionals giving simple explanations of the actual science is the way to go IMHO.

  12. Robert Guyton 13

    "As farmers, families like mine received an enormous amount of benefit from the state, had almost no constraints on our actions, and often paid almost nothing in tax. In terms of per capita investment by the state, there has never been such a privileged class in New Zealand history."

    "At heart their message is simply a plea to stop the clocks. For some, it is proving very hard to move on from living in a past version of New Zealand where they were the nation’s most privileged citizens."

    The politics of nostalgia in the Groundswell protests.

    An illuminating read.

    https://www.newsroom.co.nz/stop-the-clocks-the-politics-of-nostalgia-in-the-groundswell-farmer-protests

    • Ad 13.1

      +10

      worth the read

    • bwaghorn 13.2

      The ones that dont pay alot of tax (some do by the way) are the ones heavily indebted, the system is rigged in favour of the those that borrow and pour any money left over from interest rates into spending on capital development.

      They dont want people debt free because they will be less productive, I read a ealy 1900s nz article that stated this but have never been able to find it again sorry.

      As for the groundswell I'd love to see a reporter go ask a good number of them next time what they are in fact protesting, I'd imagine most haven't a clue,

      • Patricia Bremner 13.2.1

        Fonterra have many farmers in a bind. Banks have high self interest, so unless you are factory farming life can get difficult. Those farmers trying to pivot to less destructive farming methods need support with $ incentives to transition imo.

    • ianmac 13.3

      A bit sad really in that the farmers are not able to give a clear slant on just what their prime beef is. Is Groundswell really a farming lobby or people with a purely right wing political agenda? Not Fed Farmers or National Party? Hmmm?

      • bwaghorn 13.3.1

        Top pun that man!!

      • Robert Guyton 13.3.2

        Groundswell? Loose affiliation of the disgruntled, the disorientated and the dismayed. Bound to succeed in overturning what the rest of us have already come to terms with 🙂

    • gsays 13.4

      Thanks Robert, very insightful.

      It isn't just political power they want the clocks wound back for. A return to a time where the primary producer is paramaount in their local market, as opposed to having to meet the supermarkets often one-sided terms and conditions.

      Not unreasonable in my view.

  13. mpledger 14

    How is Stuff funding the daily stories about people missing out on MIQ spots? When ever they have comments on the story, the main theme is "yes, it's tough for everyone but we have to manage returns so our people and our economy are safeguarded". Yet story, after story, after story – it feels like a funded campaign.

    Where is the story after story about people catching covid-19 in the community and having their lives turned upside down – where is the balance? Or just anyone who has been screwed by lockdown – funerals, hospital visits etc.

    • Anne 14.1

      Yes. The media supported campaign to denigrate this government reminds me of similar campaigns from past political climes including the latter half of the Helen Clark regime followed by the insidious campaigns against David Shearer and his successor, David Cunliffe – not to mention the officially sanctioned effort (at least in part) to discredit Phil Goff. I noted Barry Soper's latest diatribe has another go at the "government ruling by fear" meme :

      https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-delta-outbreak-barry-soper-labour-looks-rattled-and-pms-under-pressure/B7PTZL6XVH6ZQD4UGDIBMG5KPY/

      These second rate tabloid journos are an integral ingredient of these insidious campaigns, while the first-class journalists and commentators have been banished to the back of the room. You find them in places like newsroom;

      https://www.newsroom.co.nz/politics/covid-is-not-a-choice-for-sick-children-sir-john

    • bwaghorn 14.2

      It would be nice if they pointed out that over 100 000 have come through miq ,just for balance.

    • NZFemme 14.3

      Disclosure: I'm currently in MIQ – day one at the Crowne Plaza after returning from the UK where I've been living and working the past 3 years until my visa expired in August.

      I've been (and still am) on 4 different private FB groups as I've gone through the process of securing an MIQ voucher over the past 4 months. There are 1000's of people in the groups, and there are often requests made to them/us from journalists/reporters for returnees stories. (and no shortage of stories). No funded campaign needed.

      • Incognito 14.3.1

        Welcome back in NZ and here on TS smiley

        • NZFemme 14.3.1.1

          Thank you! It's wonderful to be back. (I got all tearful as we flew into the airport last night with the Southern Sky above me again…) smiley

          • Ad 14.3.1.1.1

            Nothing like seeing that land underneath you from the air once more.

            • NZFemme 14.3.1.1.1.1

              It was the loveliest of sights. heart Followed by hearing the familiar cadence of the kiwi accent, and the army/defence man on the bus telling us we'd be 'sweet as' once we'd had our first clear PCR and could have a daily walk. I didn't realise how much I missed the voices of people who sound like me! (Mind you, I've been living in Newcastle where the Geordie accent reigns and I'm not sure who had more trouble initially being understood- me, or them.)

              • Patricia Bremner

                Welcome back. Our son posted a video of a crowd of Kiwis doing a spontaneous haka on the Gold Coast. It was really rousing, and was greeted with cheers and clapping. Grant said he felt a real sense of "us".

                This virus has made us rethink much. Hope it goes well for you. Feel free to chat here about your experiences. We haven't quite turned into Hobbits yet.

              • bwaghorn

                I still recall the first sight of aotearoa I had after 2 years away ! 24 years 11 months ago . Had a return ticket to the uk but never used it.

      • Anne 14.3.2

        Welcome home NZFemme. 🙂

        It would be interesting to know what kind of stories the journalists/reporters are after… whether they are interested in the good experiences or just the bad ones.

        From what we have heard thus far, it seems to be mainly the bad ones.

        • NZFemme 14.3.2.1

          Hello Anne, smiley

          Generally the reporters requests are for returnees experiences with specific aspects of the MIQ booking system and its evolution. For example, back in June/July they wanted to communicate with returning citizens about the use of third parties; the reasons people were resorting to it, and the actual technical process of booking. (This was when you had to sit at your computer refreshing constantly for hours at a time for weeks if you wanted any chance at all to book a spot – this was my experience, with a few all-nighters as well thrown into the mix)

          There was also a call out for stories from people living with disabilities who were unable to use the system at all, as it wasn't set up to be accessible for them. (Kiwi citizens who are blind for example, or those with physical disabilities that wouldn't allow for the use of lightening fast keyboard use for hours on end)

          There were requests from reporters for kiwi citizens who were being refused emergency allocations under the different criteria. (there are around 350 emergency allocations set aside every 2 weeks, but only 50% of them are generally allocated. Brigadier Rose King, joint head of MIQ, has said that "this is a limit, not a target".

          Now they are interested in stories from returning citizens who are navigating the new MIQ booking system, which is more of a lottery system – so you enter your passport number when the lobby opens, and are then assigned a random number, which indicates where you will be in the queue for that specific room release. (They have just run the second room release under the new system yesterday)

          There have been a couple of independent film-makers in the ex-pat community who put a call out for returnees to follow them through to their returns, and their experiences when back in NZ. (I don't like to be filmed so never put my hand up for these! Or any of the other requests.)

          I guess the reality is that good news doesn't really get the ratings, and unfortunately, from the returning citizen's perspective, the MIQ booking system itself has been pretty horrible to navigate. And it really is the booking system itself, rather than the need to isolate/quarantine at a facility, that has so many returning citizens despairing.

          I do feel very lucky to have been able to come home. It was a bit scary there for a while, as I didn't want to be an illegal overstayer in the UK, and be unable to work or rent. Thankfully the UK govt put in place a visa extension scheme called 'Exceptional Assurance' for citizens from countries with no flights home, or in the case of New Zealand, 'no room at the inn' so to speak, to at least make sure we don't end up with black marks on our passports. I don't know how much longer they will continue the scheme though, as they extended it somewhat begrudgingly again only after an intervention from the NZ High Commissioner.

          • Anne 14.3.2.1.1

            Thankyou for your in-depth reply. It will take some time to digest it all.

            I understand how stressful it must be for those desperate to return to NZ but I guess the government is trying to manage and absorb not too large a number of returnees at a time so as not to run the risk of compromising our Delta variant status. Hence the need to stagger the MIQ places over a longer period. Hopefully most will be able to return by Xmas or soon afterwards.

            There was also a call out for stories from people living with disabilities who were unable to use the system at all, as it wasn't set up to be accessible for them. (Kiwi citizens who are blind for example,…

            I find it a bit disingenuous they concentrate on the disabled because of course we are disadvantaged no matter what situation we find ourselves in. As someone who now has to live with severe arthritis I can attest to that. It comes across to me as an opportunity to include a few sob stories because they think it will create a stir among the great unwashed. I use the term "unwashed" only in a rhetorical sense.

            Years ago I worked in a NZTV entity so I know a little bit how the journos' and broadcasters' minds work.

            • NZFemme 14.3.2.1.1.1

              Anne, yes, that request did feel opportunistic – it came after an RNZ story on the 30 complaints to the Human Rights Commission about the lack of accessibility, one of which was spurred by the President of the Blind Union being unable to utilise the system. It felt like other media outlets were trying to play catch up with their own versions.

              What feels yucky to me also, is the attempts to make MIQ and the issues of returning citizens into a political football game. It just ends up creating even more division between Kiwis who need to come home, and Kiwis at home. I really don't believe for a minute that Seymour or Collins care about Kiwis stuck overseas – it feels like they just see a crack in Labours wall, and want to wedge it open wider to score political points, flapping our stories about like gloating bait. But there is a crack…

              I think given that New Zealand's ex-pat community is so large, and the ability to facilitate the numbers seeking to return is constrained by the infrastructure available to keep everybody safe – both returning kiwis and kiwis on the ground – sadly, it may be well into 2022 before the appx 30,000 who tried for spots in yesterdays room release can return. I really wish it was otherwise.

              • Anne

                My goodness, you've got it sussed and you have only just arrived back into the country.

                You are right about Seymour and Collins – and Chris Bishop. They have been playing politics with Covid from the start and with some success. They don't give a damn about the plight of overseas Kiwis. They're just using them as a stick to beat the government with. Sad that a lot of NZers are falling for it.

  14. Tricledrown 15

    Nationals wish list .

    Building stand alone miq facilities considering labour material shortages and that National are not in power so they can make any old claim it likes.

  15. Tricledrown 16

    FAS disability costs should be funded by the alcohol industry.

    • Patricia Bremner 16.2

      Absolutely Tricledown.

    • gsays 16.3

      That was an enlightening piece on RNZ this morning. When FADS was highlighted the way it was, I couldn't help but think there was a 'deserving sick' vibe to the PTB thinking.

      By alcohol industry, you mean consumers of alcohol.

      • Barfly 16.3.1

        The actual change in consumer price would be quite low I believe

        • gsays 16.3.1.1

          Are you trying to tell me the mega breweries would 'absorb' any new taxes or increase in excise?

          • Barfly 16.3.1.1.1

            I'm saying the public would barely notice the increase if it was simply passed on to them…..however under the philosophy of never let a chance go by I could easily imagine alcohol manufacturers and importers wail loudly so as to make additional profit under the mask of "It's a TAX"

  16. DS 17

    Building specialised MIQ away from Auckland is actually a good idea. Just not in the way National intends. When the Northern Hemisphere Winter brings mountains of fresh corpses, New Zealand will belatedly realise it can't re-open borders in 2022 either

  17. Patricia Bremner 18

    As with Tuberculosis, sanitoriums for safe recovery may well be needed for MIQ and as more people end up with long covid.

    National's plan is bereft of any ideas for unvaccinated children under age 12.

    No doubt users would have to pay for testing vaccine boosters and hospital stays?, true to their "User pays" values.

    The Government must take the people with them.

    What have the polls consistently said Judith? Something you did not want to hear?

  18. KJT 19

    National. Promises Covid for Christmas!

  19. Personal statement: Brian Tamaki and his ungodly protest do not represent me. He is a public menace and a wolf in sheep's clothing, seeking to profit from a public health crisis. 2 Corinthians 11:5 warns against "super-apostles"

    https://www.gotquestions.org/super-apostles.html

  20. Chris T 21

    Ouch.

    45 new cases.

    I am thinking bye bye level 2 next week Auckland

    If it is. I feel for you. 🙁

    • It's not as bad as it sounds: 33 of the 45 are household contacts, of the 12 remaining, 6 have known links at the moment. And most of these cases were expected.

      Chippie summed it up well at the presser: National promises Covid for Christmas!

      • gsays 21.1.1

        All together now:

        The first day of Christmas,

        National got for me

        A trip to E.D. …

      • Cricklewood 21.1.2

        Still at least 6 out and about probably another 6 on top… covids tentacles are winding back into the community… think thats the number to watch because Aucklands pretty damn busy and social distance is reducing… work bubbles are mixing… in the line for a pie and a coffee…

        Do we hold our nerve, or do we go back to level 4 in a bid to stamp it out? Look how efficiently it spreads in NSW which is sorta in a level 3 lockdown…

        I suspect the govt will have to decide quickly….

    • Ad 21.2

      Damn this second jab I had yesterday is washing me out much worse than the first one. I'm about 20% down in energy today whereas I was 10% down on the first one.

      • Chris T 21.2.1

        I won't go into too much detail on my first one as don't want to put anyone off except it involved a bit of vomiting the next day, but I was the opposite.

        Reallybad the first. Perfectly fine the second.

        Different bodies react differently I guess.

      • joe90 21.2.2

        I thought I was good to go after the second – for a little over 24 hours and then it hit me. Came over all hot and flustered and generally feeling like shit so I took to the scratcher. Got up next AM as good as gold.

        • Anne 21.2.2.1

          The second shot apparently leaves some extremely fatigued. Sounds like Ad is one of them.

        • McFlock 21.2.2.2

          looks like I lucked out on those, then – barely any problems whatsoever. To the degree that I had a wee sore bit on my arm from the injection, then realised that I'd gotten the shot on the other arm lol.

          2nd shot had nothing I can recall (except the memory loss maybe? lol).

      • AB 21.2.3

        Similar. Felt so tired after the second one that I had to lie down for about 4 hours – after that I was fine.

      • Barfly 21.2.4

        First dose I was a bit crook second dose pretty much flattened me – runny nose, exhausted and aching all over = about 3 days of snoozing with sedatives and pain killers (from my prescription supply)

      • Patricia Bremner 21.2.5

        Watch for any shortness of breath ,that needs a check, otherwise rest and fluids.

      • bwaghorn 21.2.6

        Cheers you lot got mine coming in t minus 9 days , how about stiff upper lip its allgood as a response

        • Anne 21.2.6.1

          Don't worry. Side effects are short and for the vast majority very mild if any at all.

        • chris T 21.2.6.2

          I found the best bet if you are working during the week is just try to get it if you can either on a Friday arvo' or Saturday. Then if you have a bit of a reaction you have a day or 2 to get over it.

          Worked for me any way.

  21. Pete 22

    When the world goes crazy about someone 'crossing the border' or 'escaping,' the report of the Auckland cop helping his whanau or friends doesn't read well at all.

    The stories of the hardship and the harrowing stories about people missing funerals and weddings are legend already.

    Accepting the news story as is, the man put his personal feelings and wishes ahead of his responsibilities. Fair enough, good for him. No doubt he weighed things up, looked at all the angles. He came to the right decision for him, the wrong decision for all others who have have suffered adverse border rulings.

    But, the system expects everyone who is in a fraught position to bite the bullet and not cross. The system expects that border checks will stop them. Most will turn and go home, their attempt foiled. On the surface it is easy to infer the guy abused his position, his word or uniform to get through.

    If his priority is to his family or friends let him leave the police and do other things. His mana will be enhanced in his whanau because he was prepared to sacrifice his job for them. Sure he was in a tough position. It's 2021, he and they haven't got that on their own.

    He is a pillock, I'm sure his superiors will want his guts for garters.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-delta-outbreak-auckland-police-inspector-at-centre-of-alleged-border-favour-breach-is-top-iwi-liaison-officer/U6Q7DL7PB5HO5TJ4A2SXLEOICE/

  22. Joe90 23

    Another 500 CCU nurses and 200 ward nurses to staff the the extra 100 CCU beds and 800 ward beds proposed?

    Dopey tory pricks really do live in lala land.

    https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/21071149/nationals-covid-19-plan.pdf

    • Cricklewood 23.1

      Easy to talk shit in opposition… bit like Phil Twyford and his 10000s of kiwibuild homes…

    • Adrian 23.2

      They really haven't got a clue. When this virus passes and that will probably be 'hopefully faster than we might assume what then with all the excess beds and very expensive equipment that needs replacing even if isn't doing anything because of redundancy of the technology. In normal circumstances we have plenty of ICU/HDU beds. Now nurses, it takes a long time to train an ICU nurse .

      1, they need patients to train on, even now we only have an extra 3 or 4 covid ones a day.

      2.. there is a huge array of equipment to master it is almost a 5 year apprenticeship.
      3.. it takes a pretty special person to be one. It is one on one care usually for 12 hours with very little time off ( 12 hours so that the number of nurse changes a day is minimised because changeovers are when mistakes happen ) and the expert observational skills required to look after someone who is pretty much comatose take a long time to acquire.

      We are so lucky the Nats were put out to pasture.

      • ghostwhowalksnz 23.2.1

        Train an ICU nurse ?

        Its a 2 semester course at Auckland University , a few hours per week plus study. of course supervision still needed once graduated.

        For this course, you can expect 40 hours of lectures, 160 hours of reading and thinking about the content and 100 hours of work on assignments and/or test preparation.

        https://courseoutline.auckland.ac.nz/dco/course/NURSPRAC/702A

        Its like teaching, to become 'fully qualified' means you have reached top of scale after 8-10 years. Still can be a classroom teacher during that time with mentoring

        • Incognito 23.2.1.1

          So much ignorant nonsense, nowadays sad

          It takes three to four years to train an ICU nurse after graduation, and seven to nine years to train an ICU doctor.

          https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/300414293/covid19-icu-staff-plead-for-kiwis-to-be-vaccinated-amid-bed-nurse-shortage

          • Ghostwhowalksnz 23.2.1.1.1

            Ever heard of surgical registars…they are specialist doctors in training. Still treat patients.

            Same goes for existing RN, indeed the course mentioned above requires them to be working in intensive care while studying.

            Thats how a major hospital works , people in training are everywhere.

            • Incognito 23.2.1.1.1.1

              I think you mean surgical registrars – yes, as it so happens, I have heard of them.

              As you rightly point out, training an ICU (Critical Care) Nurse requires much more than one course at University.

              The question was not what nurses (or doctors) in training can do in and as part of their training, but how long it takes to train them and complete their training. It is even in National’s Plan, strangely enough:

              It takes around a decade to train specialist nurses and doctors for ICU, which is time we don’t have.

              Who would have thought?

              Different candidates have different entry levels and thus different entry points. Well, duh!!

    • Muttonbird 23.3

      That's also an un-modelled estimate where they've just halved the 80% numbers. Not particularly rigorous, mathematically or medically.

  23. coreyjhumm 24

    I think taking the vote on leadership away from labour members and allowing caucus to pick the leadership should be opposed, it's nothing but a power grab from the labour right, caucus may have given us Ardern but also Goff and Shearer there's nothing to say Ardern couldn't have won a primary.

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