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Open mike 19/09/2021

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, September 19th, 2021 - 104 comments
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Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

104 comments on “Open mike 19/09/2021 ”

  1. Gezza 1

    Somebody here yesterday asked whether there were even any family members left to receive compensation for the US's wrongful drone strike on an innocent family in Kabul.

    Afghan survivors of US drone strike: Sorry 'is not enough'

    "Sorry is not enough for the Afghan survivors of an errant US drone strike that killed 10 members of their family, including seven children.

    Emal Ahmadi, whose 3-year-old daughter Malika was killed on August 29, when the US hellfire missile struck his elder brother's car, told The Associated Presson Saturday that the family demands Washington investigate who fired the drone and punish the military personnel responsible for the strike."

    “That is not enough for us to say sorry,” said Ahmadi. “The USA should find the person who did this."

    "Ahmadi said the family is also seeking financial compensation for their losses and demanded that several members of the family be relocated to a third country, without specifying which country.

    Even as evidence mounted to the contrary, Pentagon officials asserted that the strike had been conducted correctly, to protect the US troops remaining at Kabul's airport ahead of the final pullout the following day, on August 30.

    Zemerai was the family's breadwinner had looked after his three brothers, including Emal, and their children."

    "'Now I am the one who is responsible for all my family and I am jobless,' said Emal Ahmadi. The situation “is not good”, said Ahmadi of life under the Taliban. International aid groups and the United Nations have warned of a looming humanitarian crisis that could drive most Afghans below the poverty level.

    Ahmadi wondered how the family's home could have been mistaken for an Islamic State hideout."

    “The USA can see from everywhere," he said of US drone capabilities. “They can see that there were innocent children near the car and in the car. Whoever did this should be punished.”

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/world/asia/300410616/afghan-survivors-of-us-drone-strike-sorry-is-not-enough

  2. Gezza 2

    Couple of items of interest on Afghanistan reported on Aljazeera tv news:

    “Taliban leaders have turned the Kabul building that housed Afghanistan’s Ministry of Women’s Affairs into the offices for the religious police, an ominous portent for women’s rights.”

    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/17/world/asia/taliban-women-ministry-religious-police.html

    And, according to Aljaz tv reporting, the Taliban have announced that all BOYS should return to their secondary schools from today. Creating fears that girls are not going to be permitted to attend secondary schools.

    Aljaz further reports that co-ed schools in Afghanistan (or it might just be Kabul) have been strictly segregated, & the Taliban have previously recently said that young women may return to Universities (but in segregated classes, & to bectaught only by women – which several female academics there have said will end up being impractical & unaffordable for many, so that it’s likely a tactic to ultimately achieve the goal of sending women back into their homes, while initially avoiding world condemnation). So this has created general confusion.

    PS: The Taliban leadership has apparently just said it will be making an announcement about when girls can return to secondary schools at some point soon.

  3. Gezza 3

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/300410641/covid19-pair-arrested-in-wellington-after-allegedly-travelling-from-auckland

    I’m losing count of the number of Auckland L4 lockdown breachers being arrested by the police all over the motu. Some folk up there are starting to go stir-crazy, it seems.

    • dv 3.1

      They have been released on bail to travel back to a court appearance in Auckland.

      Should have been held until they have shown no covid infection

    • Graeme 3.2

      Although I noticed that masks and social distance had suddenly become quite universal around Queenstown locals, including a couple of gentlemen who were prominent at the howl a month or so back. The sense of security from isolation, 'covid's just in South Auckland, none down here', gone and replaced by a quiet concern.

      Pleasing to see but last week very few were masking or distancing, and if you did you got shit. Retail staff were scared and very thankful to those that were masking. Retailers Assn has done a lot of good work educating employers and staff of the requirements and reasons for masking and staff feel vulnerable. It's pleasing to see some responsibility from the public, even if it is motivated by personal fear.

      • Gezza 3.2.1

        Yes, I'm in Welly. Just got back from my supermarket shopping. Everyone's masked up, including yours truly, & shoppers are all trying to keep a reasonable amount of distance from other shoppers at Level 2.

        I get a bit hacked off with the mask fogging up me specs, but until we get everyone possible vaccinated, I'm quite happy to keep wearing a mask when out in public.

        • Ed1 3.2.1.1

          There is a two-sided 'body" tape that chemists sell that give a better air seal around the nose than the wire used in some masks.

          • Gezza 3.2.1.1.1

            Thanks Ed, might check that out when next in the chemists.

            I’ve got a couple of rolls of 1/2 inch micropore tape at home. Might experiment with that.

            • Forget now 3.2.1.1.1.1

              I find I can prevent my glasses fogging with stillsuit breathing (if you know Herbert's Dune); in through the mouth, and out through the nose. Though it does take a couple of minutes to switch back to more regular patterns when the mask comes off. Also, the bridge of the glasses helps hold the mask on too – but I am using washable cloth ones rather than wired disposables.

              • Gezza

                I bought 3 cloth masks, made in India, sold to me off my Dentist’s counter. He & his missus are both Kiwi Indians with still-strong connections to whanau back in the old country which, until Covid, they visit regularly. They’re both practising Christians & were selling them for an orphanage charity in India that they support.

                The only thing is they seemed to be a single layer cloth – but nope, I’ve just gone & checked them carefully & they’re lined: 2 layers.

                I’ve got a biggish box of surgical masks, so I’m using a few of them up first. They’re supposed to be one-use-only, but I go out from my home base relatively infrequently & often for only about 30 mins or so, so most the time I take it off in the car & re-use it a few times in Level 2, where there’s less risk of Covid being in the air & getting on the mask.

                In Level 4 lockdowns – when Welly’s had cases in the community – they get trashed after one use.

        • McFlock 3.2.1.2

          I just tend to wear my mask high, so that the glasses actualy hold the mask down on the bit by the nose that usually seems to be responsible.

          In the process of making some extra large masks to stop me bristles poking out the bottom though.

          • Gezza 3.2.1.2.1

            I notice on Aljazeera tv-shown Press Conferences that the Taliban & the Iranian leadership have the same problem, McFlock. 😀 I’ve just got a mo. Not so much of a problem.

        • Jenny how to get there 3.2.1.3

          There are lots of good video tips on line on how to fix this problem.

          • Gezza 3.2.1.3.1

            Kia ora for this, Jenny yes

            • Gezza 3.2.1.3.1.1

              She actually doesn't have much success!

              However it's a sunny, quite warm day today & I noticed when trying on my mask outside, there wasn't that much of a problem today.

              It may well diminish or disappear as the weather gets warmer – though no doubt we'll get a real "Polar Blast" barreling up the whole country sometime before the end of September. Happens every year.

      • AB 3.2.2

        "Covid's just in South Auckland, none down here…"

        Went for a bush walk here on Auckland's North Shore yesterday. Close to our home about 2km away. A bit hesistant as the track narrows in a lot of places and it was a nice day – but stuck our masks on and assumed others would too. Only about 20% masked – people puffing their way back uphill unmasked and right past others who were also unmasked and taking a breather. Completed our walk – albeit with a fair bit of backing into the bushes and keeping clear of others when we hit the beach at the bottom. Regretted the decision to go. Looked a bit like a case of "Covid's just in South Auckland, none up here…"

      • joe90 3.2.3

        Mask compliance here in Whanganui is nearly universal. Late last week I saw a kuia bawling out a group of school kids over their not wearing masks in a crowded main street. The whole lot donned the masks they were carrying.

        Retailers have been excellent, too.

        • Gezza 3.2.3.1

          Good on her. From my observations, they allow a fair bit of latitude to young kids & don’t always bawl out their tamariki for misdemeanors. When they do, I bet the kidz listen up !

    • Descendant Of Smith 3.3

      Nah they were escaping last time. Family on the Coromandel commented on how many Aucklanders were flying in by helicopter during lock down and/or arriving in the middle of the night.

      I think it is more that people have lost tolerance for the behaviour this time.

  4. joe90 4

    But it's my body, my choice….fucking filth

    St. Luke’s reported that 92-94% of its COVID-19 patients in the past week have been unvaccinated. And 95-98% of its COVID-19 patients taking up ICU beds were unvaccinated.

    Here’s an even scarier statement, from the Idaho Department of Health and Welfare’s strategies during crisis standards of care:

    “Universal DNR Order: Adult patients hospitalized during a public health emergency, when crisis standards of care have been declared, should receive aggressive interventions; however, they should receive NO attempts at resuscitation (compressions, shocks or intubation if not yet intubated) in the event of cardiac arrest. The likelihood of survival after a cardiac arrest is extremely low for adult patients. As well, resuscitation poses significant risk to healthcare workers due to aerosolization of body fluids and uses large quantities of scarce resources such as staff time, personal protective equipment, and lifesaving medications, with minimal opportunity for benefit.”

    In other words, whether we’ve signed a “do not resuscitate” directive or not, everyone single one of us is now under a DNR directive in Idaho because we’ve reached crisis standards of care due to a deadly and overwhelming surge of unvaccinated COVID-19 patients in our hospitals.

    And it’s all entirely preventable.

    https://www.idahostatesman.com/opinion/editorials/article254287998.html

    (my bold)

    • Andre 4.1

      If it were up to me, I would now be setting up tents in the far corner of hospital carparks as the Unvaccinated Covid wards. And giving the directive that unvaccinated (but eligible for vaccination) covid patients are first on the list for triaging.

      Conventional triaging and medical ethics is built around events out of the control of those injured. But what we've got coming at us is very much foreseeable, and there is a very safe, very effective, and free precaution (almost) all of us can take against being a part of the coming problem (that unfortunately isn't quite 100% effective). However, some will refuse to do their very minimal bit for their community and help themselves at the same time.

      Responding to this problem is a society-wide values and ethics and resource-allocation issue, not a conventional medical ethics and triaging situation. Therefore conventional medical ethicists are not the right people for setting the response guidelines.

      Our government needs to be the ones to step up and give the hard word.

      • joe90 4.1.1

        A solution that doesn't require vaccination.

      • RedLogix 4.1.2

        If it were up to me, I would now be setting up tents in the far corner of hospital carparks as the Unvaccinated Covid wards. And giving the directive that unvaccinated (but eligible for vaccination) covid patients are first on the list for triaging.

        You could sell tickets – the morally superior vaccinated people could come and watch the spectacle of the 'filth' choking to death. Seems it would be popular.

        • Andre 4.1.2.1

          Nah.

          But I would set up another tent in a different corner of the carpark as a vaccination centre. So those that need the shock of seeing how nasty it is to nudge them into protecting themselves can get it done then and there.

        • KJT 4.1.2.2

          We won't discuss the morality of kids needing care after a car accident, for example, not getting admitted to hospital, because it is full of idiots who didn't get vaccinated, when it is easily available.
          Already happening in New York State, from a first hand description.

    • arkie 4.2

      US hospitals ration care amid shortages and Covid-19 surge

      Surges in coronavirus cases in several US states this week, along with staffing and equipment shortages, are exacting a mounting toll on hospitals and their workers, leading to warnings at some facilities that care would be rationed.

      In Alaska, the influx is so heavy the state's largest hospital is no longer able to provide life-saving care to every patient who needs it due to the influx of Covid-19 hospitalisations, according to an open letter from the medical executive committee of Providence Alaska Medical Centre this week.

      "If you or your loved one need speciality care at Providence, such as a cardiologist, trauma surgeon, or a neurosurgeon, we sadly may not have room now," the letter read. "There are no more staffed beds left."

      https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/world/451823/us-hospitals-ration-care-amid-shortages-and-covid-19-surge

      And isn't 'Rationing of Care' the canard deployed against socialised healthcare in the US?

  5. Anker 5
    • Happy Sufferage Day to the women of Aotearoa
    • DukeEll 5.1

      When do we get a non binary suffrage day?

      • Gezza 5.1.1

        Quite likely that somebody’s already beavering away trying to organise that.

        • Anker 5.1.1.1

          Yes Gezza, apparently therre was a protest on women's suffrage day in Dunedin calling for trans rights. I am informed the protesters countering the women's celebrations seem to have no idea what women's suffrage was about. That women had to fight hard for their right to cast a vote.

          • Forget now 5.1.1.1.1

            Was there Anker? I haven't heard anything about that myself (but then the last time I bothered marching in protest was against the TPPA, so people know better than to ask me along), and I am familiar with a few takatāpui kaiwhakahē o Ōtepoti. Do you have a link?

            This is the closest I could find (from yesterday), but then again – I don't use Twitter or suchlike:

            Local feminists are marching for their rights in Wellington and Dunedin on New Zealand Suffrage Day, this Sunday, in protest against two bills before Parliament that the women say will erode their rights; the Births, Deaths, Marriages and Relationships Registration Bill and the Conversion Practices Prohibition Legislation Bill…

            The Wellington protest will take place on Sunday, 19 September, at 12.00pm, at Te Aro Park, and a rally will be held at the Octagon in Dunedin from 11 am.

            https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO2109/S00093/wellington-and-dunedin-feminists-rally-for-disappearing-rights.htm

            • Anker 5.1.1.1.1.1

              Didn't realize it was a protest by women about the bills.

              It makes more sense as to why others would counter protest. I don't have a link.

              I agree about prisoners being able to vote.

              Mixed feelings about kids below the age of 18.

      • Anker 5.1.2

        Duke Ell you are joking right?

        Sufferage became universal for males for all males in 1879 (as opposed to male land owners only being able to vote)

        In 1867 the Maori seats were established so Maori males could vote.

        Then women got the vote in 1893, the first country in the world that allowed women to vote. Women fought hard for this in NZ and in other countries. In some countries like Switzerland women didn't get the vote till the 1970's.

        Voting rights were restricted biological sex. That's why suffrage is celebrated by women.

        • DukeEll 5.1.2.1

          Suffrage celebrations need to be more inclusive then to avoid problems.

          Universal perhaps….

          • Anker 5.1.2.1.1

            No I think it is good as it is DukeEll.

            Women have always celebrated suffrage on our day 19th September. It was then that we were included. We are remembering how hard our sisters fought to be included.

            • I Feel Love 5.1.2.1.1.1

              The protests were against SUFW hijacking the Suffrage Day celebration (there were posters saying the Octagon even was organised by the SUFW to oppose self ID thing), not against the Suffrage Movement.

              • Anker

                Oh I think describing it as a high jijacking is a bit extreme.

                We are women. Its our day, we can use it to highlight issues some of us are concerned about.

              • weka

                Afaik, it wasn't SUFW, it was Women's Liberation Aotearoa and Mana Wāhine Kōrero. And they didn't hijack a Suffrage Day celebration, they organised it. They have a FB page if you want to look it up.

          • Forget now 5.1.2.1.2

            The universal in "universal suffrage" refers more to the right to both; vote for, and stand for, elected office. Universal suffrage in NZ was deemed to have been achieved even before women and Māori got the right to vote. Māori votes were problematic from 1867 (when they were worth about a quarter as much as Pākehā by population, and weren't permitted to use secret ballots, or electoral rolls) all the way up until 1992 with the adoption of MMP that finally gave (those who chose to risk discrimination for identifying as) Māori a proportionate voice in parliament.

            https://nzhistory.govt.nz/politics/maori-and-the-vote/twentieth-century

            However, I would argue that we have not yet reached true universal suffrage due to age restrictions (particularly in the 16-17 age group; which I think is currently before the courts based on the HRA, but even younger might be feasible through proxy). Also the removal of voting rights for prisoners, and preventing those convicted of a crime punishable for more than 2 years imprisonment (even if the actual sentence is less than that). Plus NZ citizens losing the right to vote if they have been out of the country for too long (3 years, I think – that's going to be an live issue come 2023).

          • weka 5.1.2.1.3

            "Suffrage celebrations need to be more inclusive then to avoid problems."

            What problems?

  6. joe90 6

    The Brexit shambles continues.

    Exclusive: The government is bracing itself for supplies of beer, fizzy drinks and meat to be hit by a severe shortage of CO2, with supermarkets and restaurants expected to be affected in the coming days.

    The Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Defra) was warned on Thursday that shortages of CO2, caused by the closure this week of two major fertilizer plants, would affect manufacturers across food and drink industry, PoliticsHome understands.

    […]

    The CO2 shortage is set to compound ongoing disruption to food and drink supplies caused by chronic shortages of lorry drivers, processors, and other workers in the UK's supply chains.

    The labour shortages, which have been exacerbated by the coronavirus and Brexit, have resulted in household names like McDonald's, Gregg's, and the Co-op running out of certain items in recent weeks, with the disruption expected to worsen in the coming weeks in the run-up to Christmas.

    https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/beer-and-fizzy-drink-supplies-at-risk-from-co2-shortages

    • Andre 6.1

      But there is still adequate food.

      And surely the NHS is going gangbusters from getting the 350 million quid a week that used to go to the EU.

    • Gypsy 6.2

      "The Brexit shambles continues."

      Or you could look to a slightly more nuanced response.

      The final outcome of Brexit is uncertain. In my view the EU is a bloated bureaucratic that has long ago lost it's way. The sooner it returns to a simple trade pact the better.

      • joe90 6.2.1

        And beer drinkers' response to any shortages of their favourite tipple will be slightly nuanced, too.

      • McFlock 6.2.2

        Gotcha. UK was doing fine for fizzy drinks, but their labour laws only caught up on them now… because brexit.

        Bojo basically crashed out of the EU, and none of the predicted failures were mitigated in any way.

        Some people would rather rule over peasants in muck than live in a developed and equitable society.

        • Gypsy 6.2.2.1

          "but their labour laws only caught up on them now… because brexit."

          On the contrary. The article states "Decades of anti-union legislation has tilted what was always an unequal relationship between workers and capital even further in the latter’s favour. "

          "Some people would rather rule over peasants in muck than live in a developed and equitable society."

          Well based on voting trends at the last election, those peasants must be voting for muck. In the 2019 British election, the Conservatives won more working class votes than labour. "Boris Johnson's party out-polled Labour by double-digit figures among both manual workers and households with incomes below £20,000".

          • McFlock 6.2.2.1.1

            On the back of 300mil quid a week, and other bullshit.

            The basic problem with that article is that unionisation wouldn't stop EU drivers making cross-channel deliveries. So unions or not, crashing out of the EU was still a predictably stupid thing to do.

            • Gypsy 6.2.2.1.1.1

              "The basic problem with that article is that unionisation wouldn't stop EU drivers making cross-channel deliveries."

              There is a shortage of lorry drivers. To deliver product INSIDE the UK.

              Brexit was the best thing to happen to the UK in decades. The working class have well and truly spoken.

              • McFlock

                So the "nuanced" view is that if Brexit hadn't happened, there'd still be the same shortages now?

                Because it seems to me that if they had enough drivers before Brexit, and not enough drivers after, then maybe that's an issue they should have fucking considered and solved before crashing out of the EU.

                Just like the fisheries, just like the NHS workforce, just like the NI problem, just like their role as a European financial centre.

                Even if the destination is worthwile (doubtful), the incompetent way they left is beyond Thatcher.

    • Poission 6.3

      The Brexit shambles continues.

      More the energy crunch due to large increases in natural gas prices.

      With the large fertilizer manufacturers shutting production of Nitrogen and ammonia urea,there will be large increases in food costs,and the cost of building materials such as waste pipes,guttering etc.

      Electricity has also (like NZ) skyrocketed in Europe.

  7. Ad 7

    24.

    No Kentucky Fried for several more weeks.

    • Andre 7.1

      Well now, that sucks great hairy months-unwashed balls.

    • DukeEll 7.2

      When do we admit that lockdowns aren’t working?

      why not move to level 3 and make mask wearing mandatory outside of the house at all times. We have to open up at some point

      • Ad 7.2.1

        Working fine for everyone outside of Auckland.

        My guess is with the NZHerald at 90% double-hit before reopening.

      • alwyn 7.2.2

        They are flat out on the 9th floor of the Beehive trying to come up with a story that lets them scrap the lockdowns without either

        1. Saying that the original estimates of the deaths expected were greatly exaggerated or

        2. having to say that there will be some deaths from Covid 19.

        That sounds quite a feat.

        • KJT 7.2.2.1

          Meamwhile Collins and co are trying to find a way of saying we should, open up immediately, and accept however many deaths and disabilities, as well as the economic loss to businesses and workers, that were largely able to carry on business as usual, due to the success of comprehensive but short lockdowns, without actually saying it.

      • Incognito 7.2.3

        Oh dear, we have a Plan B parrot that tripped over a few logical fallacies and fell in a rabbit hole. Please enlighten us, in your own words, as to why you claim that lockdowns in NZ are not working.

        • DukeEll 7.2.3.1

          Cases are constant as are the mystery numbers. Shows covid is in the community and getting aroind

          I never said plan B. I said level 3 with more mandatory restrictions to enjoy it. Open up just enough to give Aucklanders some relief but keep it safe.

          • Incognito 7.2.3.1.1

            I never said plan B.

            You didn’t have to, it was crystal clear; in fact, no link required or desired, this time, as it would show you as the Plan B parrot that you are.

            Shows covid is in the community and getting aroind [sic]

            That comment shows a profound misunderstanding of lockdown, which is exactly because of spread in the community. In all reality, the peak has passed, but the tail is long (and hard), and most if not all news cases are linked to existing clusters within 24 hours and occur in households of known positive cases. Lockdown is definitely working, even against the much tougher Delta variant.

            • DukeEll 7.2.3.1.1.1

              So how’s your profound misunderstanding of lockdown and the level system going?

              • Incognito

                Very well, thanks.

                I hope you enjoyed the briefing at 4 pm by Ardern and Bloomfield and found it informative and educational. Lockdowns do work indeed!

                In fact, it works so well that they have decided to use it again:

                For the Mangatangi community to the east of Maramarua and the southeast of Miranda on the firth of Thames, a section 70 order has been put in place extending the road boundary currently around Auckland.

                This area, under the advice of the Director-General of Health Doctor Ashley Bloomfield, is in a "bespoke Level 4'' arrangement for five days.

                That means getting tested, staying home, and monitoring symptoms until that deadline is up.

                https://www.newsroom.co.nz/relief-for-auckland-more-rules-for-mangatangi

      • McFlock 7.2.4

        It's tough, but it is working. Sydney and Melbourne show that if you ease off this sucker even a little bit, Auckland will be counting deaths by the day. Maybe when damned near everyone is double-jabbed, but not before.

    • AB 7.3

      I'd like to see some analysis on how onward transmission is still occurring at L4. The inference given at the 1PM today was that it isn't through the consumption of essential services, i.e. it's not unrelated people using the same dairy, laundromat, etc. Rather it's due to inter-household contact, either due to outright bubble-breaking, or to special circumstances where someone from one household has to provide support to another household. And if that's the case, I don't see how you stop it without tightening controls even further and/or throwing more resources and people at it.

      • Andre 7.3.1

        From the live feed at about 1:21 pm today: https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/300410256/covid19-nz-live-24-new-cases-discovered-all-in-auckland

        For the most part many of the activities of people infectious in the community, are essential visits.

        They haven't tended to see cases spin-off from locations of interest such as pharmacies and supermarkets. They're seeing transmission within households.

        The weasel wording of "for the most part" and "haven't tended" suggests to me that some is indeed happening. Which would have an easy solution: instead of them having to go out on their essential trips, deliver their essential supplies instead. The government can easily stump up the delivery fee.

      • Incognito 7.3.2

        Most if not all new cases can be linked to known existing cases within 24 hours.

        Most if not all transmission takes place within households.

        Most of the activities of people who are deemed infectious in the community are (for) essential visits.

        One possibility is to provide extra assistance to those identified households, e.g., using some kind of personalised chaperone system with experienced health care professionals from within the local community. This might help break the so-called long hard tail of this Delta outbreak in Auckland and allow the rules to be somewhat relaxed for the rest of the greater Auckland region that is in lockdown and the rest of the whole country sooner rather than later. In other words, more tailored and targeted measures with more flexibility and nuance reflecting the specific and local circumstances rather than the current crude blanket measures that seem to obey the rule (mantra) that one size fits all. How hard can that be?

        • AB 7.3.2.1

          Yes, maybe something new needs to be done, even if it is hard. Throwing 'wrap-around' care at households where someone is identified as a close contact – so they literally don't go anywhere until negative Day12 tests are returned, or into MIQ if tests are positive. Low numbers of such households presumably make it feasible.

          But I guess everyone is scared of scenes like we saw in the early days in Wuhan with full PPE-wearing cops positioned outside people's front doors and physically shoving them back inside.

          • Incognito 7.3.2.1.1

            Thanks for being constructive, much appreciated.

            Yes, it would have its own set of difficulties and would indeed require some finesse for want of a better word.

            I was thinking of allowing members of those households to continue to go about their ways under lockdown rather than give them full house arrest and without extra limitations and restrictions that could stigmatise them in their (local) communities.

            A fully vaccinated professional could show them the do’s & don’ts, including mask-wearing and hand-washing, for example, and also chaperone them safely from a discrete distance without looking like a bodyguard in full armour, so to speak. Maybe appoint one member of the household as gatekeeper and observer of QC and adherence to good practice, but this may not gel well with certain socio-cultural norms within those households.

            Things need to be tailored or they won’t work at all and possibly even backfire; intra-household wedges are not desired outcomes.

            We need more lateral thinking and solutions after more than 18 months of dealing with this pandemic. We also need boldness combined with kind firmness.

            Edit: give them kits for daily saliva testing

          • Ed1 7.3.2.1.2

            I had a friend in Wuhan Province during their initial lock-down. They used a lot of workers to man intersections and then building entrances – eventually taking orders for shopping and delivering them for residents. It minimised contact between households and enabled a successful and orderly lockdown. there may have been police involved, and they were quick to use full body covering including masks. I did not hear of any widespread unrest; most of the population readily complied with requests. Whether that would have worked here is a moot point; they have a much higher density of population in cities than we do – and China is one of the few countries that has better Covid statistics then we do.

            • Incognito 7.3.2.1.2.1

              Whether that would have worked here is a moot point; they have a much higher density of population in cities than we do –

              I don’t follow your logic here.

              – and China is one of the few countries that has better Covid statistics then [sic] we do.

              Is that so? Is that a fact or your opinion?

        • Anne 7.3.2.2

          … provide extra assistance to those identified households, e.g., using some kind of personalised chaperone system with experienced health care professionals from within the local community. This might help break the so-called long hard tail of this Delta outbreak in Auckland and allow the rules to be somewhat relaxed for the rest of the greater Auckland region…

          Its a no-brainer. Lets be honest for once about the problem in Auckland:

          This outbreak appears pretty much confined to one ethnicity and in large part is caused by too many people in one household and the tendency to socially meet in large numbers eg. church functions. Setting aside the reason for this scenario which I know is not entirely their fault, it would be absurd if the whole of the Auckland region should continue to suffer the consequences of a L4 lockdown.

          It was pertinent to the recovery process up until now, but any continuation would be harmful to Auckland and the rest of the country. Instead concentrate resources into the group who are currently topping the 'cases chart' and assist them to overcome the plight so many are currently in.

          • Incognito 7.3.2.2.1

            As an aside, to be really effective, public health measures need to be taken and tailored to the people who need it, i.e., know your audience. This means great(er) involvement of local community medical centres and GPs. This is one major reason why I’m quite wary of the abolishing of the DHBs, which are indeed a shambles, and replacing them with a more centralised structure and system. Public health happens at grassroots and patient level, not in boardrooms on top floors of tall buildings by managers in suits with bonus payments based on meeting KPIs. Same could be said about many societal issues, for that matter.

            • Anne 7.3.2.2.1.1

              I think most community health centres and GPs are involved now. What I suspect happened is the government did not have sufficient vaccine to go too hard out and that is why they delayed bringing in the bulk of the medical clinics. Whether that was an error of judgement or they were constrained by sticking to one brand or for some other reason I don't know. Whatever, the situation has now changed.

              We'll have to wait and see the fine print re-the proposed new Health Boards but there is little argument the country has way too many DHBs. I trust Andrew Little to set them up in such a way they will not turn into big corporate-type conglomerates. We had a good health system prior to neoliberalism. In fact it was regarded as one of the best in the world.

    • Jester 7.4

      I still think it will be KFC from Wednesday morning.

  8. weka 8

    • joe90 8.1

      Obviously The Onion for RWNJ's has a certain crossover value.

      What's next, their lib owning anti-vaxx schtick?

      • weka 8.1.1

        the irony there is that no-one on the left with a job they care about would dare satirise the impact of individiualising pronouns on people's jobs. Or the English language.

        Or how contradictory gender identity theory is,

        "Because gender is a social construct, and I was born this way."

    • Ad 8.2

      This animation is just a weaker copy of another parody, from Abbott and Costello in 1945:

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sShMA85pv8M

      For those unaware of this kind of history, it’s called “Who’s On First?”

  9. weka 9

    Easy to understand progress graphic of NZ, NSW and Victoria cases since first delta case in community.

    https://public.flourish.studio/visualisation/7264270/

    • Muttonbird 9.1

      At 34 days NZ's and VIC's graphs are identical. If it's L4 keeping us there, any lifting of it will see our graph follow VIC's.

      I can tell you now, Auckland isn't happy. Five more weeks at L4 to try suppress that graph when just a few people are not following the rules and ruining it for everyone else is going to result in some serious social division.

      It used to be that naming and shaming rule breakers worked a treat. The government seems to have gone gun-shy yet again…

  10. Morrissey 10

    The moment Russiagate took the person I love most by Serena Sopwith-Fotherington, Daisycutter Sports News, Dec. 18, 2021

    [deleted]

    [I have no idea what the hell that was, but deleted because at least some of it was a cut and paste from a BBC website. Morrissey, you haveto make clear what are your words, and what are someone else’s and you have to do so in a manner that other people, including the mods, can understand. Use the blockquote tag, or some other way of making it clear – weka]

  11. Herodotus 11

    I will not utter profanities, but 🤬. And leave any other reactive comments to myself and go online and order a bottle of Whisky or 2. By the time they are finished Auckland maybe at level 3 🙁

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/three-new-covid-cases-in-waikato-including-two-school-students/J5A3QM6T4QSFKCFL7IYUVJPZQA/

  12. Gezza 12

    Bugger.

    Forgot to get a 4 pack of Tip Top Boysenberry Trumpets when I shopped at the supermarket today. No treats in the house at all today. I blame the guvermint.
    (It’s not their fault, I just often blame all guvermints so I can move on from my trauma.)

    ISRAEL CAPTURES LAST TWO PRISONERS WHO TUNNELLED OUT OF HIGH SECURITY PRISON

    Aljazeera tv is reporting that Israeli police have just recaptured the remaining two Palestinian escapees from an Israeli high security prison.

    The Israelis might now be able to stand down the thousands of police, security & other IDF personnel who have been deployed in the Palestinian occupied territories during the hunt for the fugitives, fearful that they might have been planning to stage attacks in Israel.

    A Palestinian Rights Group says the Israelis have arrested over 100 Palestinians since those 6 prisoners escaped a few weeks ago. Their troops, a female Palestinian representative of the Group says, have also been roughing up & harassing & detaining hundreds of Palestinians while searching for the escapees.

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