Open Mike 29/11/2017

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, November 29th, 2017 - 174 comments
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174 comments on “Open Mike 29/11/2017”

  1. Ed 1

    The witchhunt continues.
    What a revolting media we have. Shall not watch how bully boys Garner and Richardson handle the story.

    There is a nasty underbelly to this country.

    ‘Poll: Do you think Golriz Ghahraman and the Green Party have misled the public about her past role as a human rights lawyer?’

    http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/shows/2017/11/poll-do-you-think-golriz-ghahraman-and-the-green-party-have-misled-the-public-about-her-past-role-as-a-human-rights-lawyer.html

    • Stunned mullet 1.1

      Not a witch hunt Ed just msm getting their money’s worth from a topical story.

      That so many commenters and authors here have moaned that it is a hit job,dirty politics etc is also somewhat trite in that if the shoe was on the other foot there would have been a number of authors here more than happy to put the boot in.

      This will be a salutory lesson to the new MPs in parliament that their past and present will always be there for the public to pick over.

      • Robert Guyton 1.1.1

        Bullsh*t, Stunned mullet. This business is nothing more than nasty mud-throwing. “Topical story” it is not; Ed is correct. It’s a witch hunt. In this day and age. Shameful.

        • Stunned mullet 1.1.1.1

          …and yet there was an article here and in the msm not so long ago about a nat member of Chinese origin that sparked considerable bigotry and howling from sections of the commenteriat.

          We are lucky in Nz that most of the population don’t really bother too much with politics as the partisan hackery displayed at this and other blogs is reminiscent of the shambolic political partisan hypocrisy on display daily in the USA.

          • Robert Guyton 1.1.1.1.1

            Do you mean the man who trained spies? How were discussions around that a witch-hunt? What bigotry was shown?

          • Andre 1.1.1.1.2

            There was and remains a major question about said MP of Chinese origin caused by his concealment of his relationship with China’s spying apparatus: if it comes to a question of a conflict between China’s interests and New Zealand’s interests, where will his loyalties and priorities really lie?

            In contrast, the hit on Ghahraman is that she didn’t go out of her way to highlight some aspects of her past work that simpletons with a reactionary view of how justice should work would find objectionable. She didn’t conceal those facts, she simply didn’t highlight them. So far there has been nothing come up to raise a question about her loyalties or integrity.

            • dv 1.1.1.1.2.1

              simply didn’t highlight them

              See eds comment at 3.1 below, re Kirsty Johnston reported on Twitter.
              To clear things up: I interviewed @golrizghahraman about six weeks before the election, we openly discussed her time in Rwanda as a defence intern. It (like much of her story) didn’t make my final story due to space. ’

              • Andre

                To my mind, being open about it in an interview falls in the category of not concealing. When the story came out without those bits and Ghahraman didn’t ask for a correction or supplement to give those facts the same prominence, that falls in the category of not highlighting.

                Your categories may vary.

                • mpledger

                  Can you imagine what would happen if a person went to a newspaper and said “I don’t believe you talked enough about this aspect of my life – I want you to give me the space so that it can be reported on”.

                  The newspaper would rightly say – “it’s out decision what goes into the newspaper, if you want your say then consider an ad and we may run it.”. (After they have finished laughing their heads off.)

                  Consider the jam-packed life this women has lead – how could she know which aspect of it that has been left out is going to be bought up by RWNJ’s.

                  And if Kirsty Johnson can’t say what is going to be newsworthy then who can? There must be few people who could outskill her.

                  • Rosemary McDonald

                    And if Kirsty Johnson can’t say what is going to be newsworthy then who can? There must be few people who could outskill her.”

                    +1000000

                  • Andre

                    As a general comment, I reckon you’re spot on.

                    In this specific instance, had Ghahraman gone back to Johnson with something like “I really think it’s important that a story like that includes the fact I was working for the defence, so it doesn’t appear I’m hiding something unsavoury that can get turned into a political attack”, I’d be surprised if that request didn’t get favourable consideration.

                    But really, she had already put the information out there in enough places for anyone to find if they cared to look. So any criticism of Ghahraman based on the idea she tried to hide her work for the defence is utter bullshit in my opinion. Particularly since she appears to have been forthright in her answers when asked. In stark contrast to most politicians questioned on a potentially uncomfortable topic.

            • Psycho Milt 1.1.1.1.2.2

              …the hit on Ghahraman is that she didn’t go out of her way to highlight some aspects of her past work that simpletons with a reactionary view of how justice should work would find objectionable.

              Thank you. So succinctly and accurately summed up that I nicked it for my own blog (with link to the original).

          • Psycho Milt 1.1.1.1.3

            …and yet there was an article here and in the msm not so long ago about a nat member of Chinese origin…

            …who used to work for Chinese military intelligence and for all we know still does; who is still a member of the Chinese Communist Party; and who spent half his maiden speech praising the Chinese government. I find those compelling reasons for suspicion that the bloke is actually representing the Chinese government rather than National voters. The only bigotry and howling in evidence is about a human rights lawyer, not a spook.

        • Pete 1.1.1.2

          Poll:
          Do you think that Newshub is peopled by idiots?

          Will they have one like that? Their poll is sort of bewildering, stunning, unbelievable, inexplicable, dumb, stupid, negative, vacuous, destructive. And bleak.

          And the saddest thing it is what we now expect.

          • savenz 1.1.1.2.1

            +1 Pete.

            Also another poll, “should the Herald be put to sleep due to being too ancient to be relevant to the NZ public apart from to Brash types.” (ACT now on 1%).

          • OncewasTim 1.1.1.2.2

            Or even another:
            Do you think our commercial media, subsidised through mechanisms such as the platinum fund, are doing the public a service?

      • Ed 1.1.2

        Your comment is shameful.
        And unsurprising.

      • Psycho Milt 1.1.3

        That so many commenters and authors here have moaned that it is a hit job,dirty politics etc is also somewhat trite in that if the shoe was on the other foot there would have been a number of authors here more than happy to put the boot in.

        If the boot was on the other foot? I wonder how that would even happen. First, the Greens would have to be running a dirty politics operation; second, National would need a human rights lawyer among its MPs. Chances of either of those approximate to 0.

      • AB 1.1.4

        Nope. It’s a hit job.
        Garner and Richardson and similar types hate her because she’s smart, left-wing, female, non-white, articulate and wants to do good in the world. The last one really winds them up because it shows up their own shallow, self-interested wallowing in comfort.
        And they are also horribly internally conflicted because she’s attractive at the same time and they find themselves hating something they fancy. This makes them even more idiotic and irrational.
        I regard them as like a t*rd that won’t flush away – obscene and embarrassing.

      • Not a witch hunt Ed just msm getting their money’s worth from a topical story.

        No, it’s a witch hunt designed to undermine our duly elected government. Basically, typical Dirty Politics from the RWNJs.

        • BM 1.1.5.1

          For fucks sake man, this is what National copped for the last nines years, it’s part of being in government, it comes with the territory.

          The left needs to put on its big boy/big girl pants and deal with it otherwise it’s one term if they’re lucky.

          • marty mars 1.1.5.1.1

            Rubbish drongo the gnats NEVER had to put up with this bullshit.

            This is dirty politics run by dirty smearers. You cannot handle how fucken scummy your side is – deal with it loser.

            • McGrath 1.1.5.1.1.1

              The media ceases to be your friend when you’re in government. This is only the start of the media fun and games. BM is right, a better strategy is needed than just crying wolf about “Dirty Politics”.

              • McFlock

                Are you kidding me? The media habitually fellate the nats inside or outside government. Tories need to be overwhelmingly incompetent before the media start to feed on them. As in Brash incompetent. But if they don’t get a leftie scalp every year or so, the media get pissy.

                And the fact that the nats had a well-established conduit from their leader’s office, through supposedly independent bloggers and into the msm… one wonders where they got this latest lie from.

                • Loop

                  McFlock you are totally correct about media fellating the natz in or out of government. I have noticed a trend recently. If labour is looking at making fairly major political decisions, the article nearly always adds a response from blinglish, as if his input validates or is more valid than the new governments. They just have to keep as much of the spotlight on him as they can!

                  • One Anonymous Bloke

                    Journalists should seek and publish contrary opinions next to one another.

                    Too often they simply re-publish press releases without seeking rebuttal at all.

                    So, for example, we get Steven Joyce running his mouth, presented as though what he says can be trusted, and the journalist involved doesn’t so much as pick up a calculator, let alone ask for third-party corroboration.

                    This laziness does them no favours: “Finance Minister cannot do sums” makes a far better story than “Finance Minister says opposition cannot do sums.”

                • McGrath

                  Seriously?! The media were on crusade to get National at the end. It was a never ending series of “got ya” attempts.

                  I am seeing a parallel with Key and Ardern. Both started off as media darlings. The media loved Key at the beginning but turned on him in the end. The same will happen with Ardern. Other politicians are fair game from the get go though.

                  • Lol you are dreaming buddy and trying to rewrite history. Key is a joke comparred to Jacinda. He is not even in the same league.

                  • McFlock

                    Key never had it as bad as Ardern has it now.

                    For ever gotcha attempt against the nats (and those were mostly the result of national infighting) in the final year, there were two against Labour and/or the greens – and it’s funny how tory bloggers and commenters always had an inkling that someone on the leftish was going to have difficulties. Maybe a post by slater parroted by one of his lickspittles who comment here, usually the previous evening to prime the pump.

                    Ardern is not a “media darling”. The media hype that up to make it look like she’s getting a free ride, but it’s damning with shallow praise while inventing shortcomings in substance. So far they’ve got nothing, so they repeat things like “gosh, they repeated exactly what they initially said, so they’re backtracking on the number of trees”-style lies.

                    • McGrath

                      “Key never had it as bad as Ardern has it now”

                      You reckon? Key was getting it with both barrels with the “Dirty Politics” non-event. Key’s self-inflicted stupidity with his hair pulling episode also saw some serious heat. Arderns ride has been gentle at best in comparison. The media have yet to go to town on her, which they will rightly or wrongly.

                    • garibaldi

                      To McGrath @ 3:53…..”Non event”? You’re obviously still on planet Key .Read the book .

                    • McFlock

                      Key got some criticism from the MSM for dirty politics came out, but that’s how hard he had to try to get stick from them: it required a book that documented, step by step, the full dirty politics machine coming from the Beehive (and then the cops turning over the author’s place) simply to get bad emough that he had to throw a minion under the bus.

                      Similarly, the media were pissed when the cops executed search warrants over the audio recording of a public cup of tea.

                      Key had to work to get media criticism. Ardern simply just has to give an update on how a policy is going, and the farcical allegations of backtracking are dutifully reported.

                    • McGrath

                      To Garibaldi @ 6:43
                      “Dirty Politics” ended up being a non-event as Joe/Jane public got sick & bored of the MSM ramming it down people’s throats 24/7. Add the Fat German to the mix and all it achieved was to shake complacent Nats to the polls securing outright victory on the night. These days, shouting “Dirty Politics” at everything is on the same level as Trump shouting “Fake News” at everything.

            • Johan 1.1.5.1.1.2

              BM is definitely a loser for trying to justify RWNJs disgraceful behaviour while in opposition.

              • Muttonbird

                His positioning is that it’s ok to to attack the government because Labour did it too. The corollary is that it’s ok for Labour to use dirty politics, stats manipulation, public service hit-jobs, and to obfuscate the transparency of government because that’s what National did.

                I expect to hear only messages of congratulations from BM and other RWNJs if and when this happens.

          • Draco T Bastard 1.1.5.1.2

            this is what National copped for the last nines years

            No it’s not.

            1. The MSM were most definitely cheer-leading for National
            2. Nothing that was levelled against National was a made up smear as this is
            3. Dirty Politics shows that made up smears is National’s Modus Operandi

            The left needs to put on its big boy/big girl pants…

            Actually, that would be National and other RWNJs having to own up to their smear machines – or held to account and jailed.

      • patricia bremner 1.1.6

        So Why is there no Poll asking people about J Key’s lies about the American spy programme being finished and replaced. That continued for a year!! A whopper!!

        Papers have just been “discovered” But the silence is deafening!! It is all “Look at this fudging by a green.”

        Very selective. What about the Nat DHB Waikato chief executive debacle?

        • BM 1.1.6.1

          Key’s no longer in politics, it’s like dredging up dirt on Helen Clark.

          Both, yesterdays people who no longer hold the publics interest.

    • tc 1.2

      Demographics Ed, they’re playing to their sports jock red neck audience.

      The smears are working, as they keep it in the limelight, so they’ll not stop anytime soon.

      It’s what happens when there’s no enforceable regulations fining broadcasters for this irresponsible behaviour.

      Richardson’s role is to play himself, a misogynist egocentric opinionated ex sports jock.

      • Ed 1.2.1

        There are really lovely people out there…..

        • tc 1.2.1.1

          Sure are Ed and they mostly don’t watch these egotists on tv3.

          Curran needs to bring the hammer down on the MSM as it’s cowboys and shills are negatively impacting open discourse.

          • Ed 1.2.1.1.1

            Yes we need a democratic media,not one owned by the finance industry.

            • Carolyn_Nth 1.2.1.1.1.1

              It’s more we need a better kind of media – hence the need to RNZ+.

              Also, basically, the government need to start leading the news agenda in their own way – with more positive, honest stories, that will engage the general public in a democratic way.

            • Grantoc 1.2.1.1.1.2

              What would a ‘democratic media’ in NZ look like Ed? How would it work?

              How do you create a ‘democratic media’ in a country like NZ without using authoritarian, essentially undemocratic methods to bring it into existence? e.g. preventing private ownership of media platforms (I presume that this is what you mean when you refer to it not being owned by the finance industry) – which raises the question as to how it would be funded?

              • …essentially undemocratic methods to bring it into existence? e.g. preventing private ownership of media platforms…

                Private ownership is anti-democratic itself due to its effect of removing power and wealth from the people.

                In fact, it’s authoritarian and even dictatorial.

                – which raises the question as to how it would be funded?

                The government, being the issuer of the NZ$, can afford all resources in the country. In fact, they already own all the resources in the country.

                It’s really not a question of funding at all. It never has been. It’s a question of the lies told to make people believe that all wealth flows from the rich.

          • James 1.2.1.1.2

            Peters is doing that for her – trying to get monies from journalists for publishing the details of hisbover payments.

            Deputy PM suing journalist for something they repeated which was true. Is this what the msm is going to be like under this government?

            • Grey Area 1.2.1.1.2.1

              “Deputy PM suing journalist for something they repeated which was true. Is this what the msm is going to be like under this government?”

              It may have been true but how did these “journalists” become privvy to Peters’s private information? That’s the point you’re missing.

              This whole thing was a Dirty Politics smear and it was facilitated by those so-called journalists. That is what an undemocratic media looks like James if you need a comparison.

            • Bearded Git 1.2.1.1.2.2

              @James That was a Dirty Trick that cost the Nats the election…..despite all the howls from journalists saying Peters is threatening freedom of speech by investigating how the pension leak got out, I think the NZ public has a right to know what transpired here……doubtless English and Joyce were up to their neck in it.

            • Draco T Bastard 1.2.1.1.2.3

              Deputy PM suing journalist for something they repeated which was true.

              That doesn’t mean that they should have repeated it. It was private information and not in the Public Interest.

              Then there was the fact that it was WINZ’ mistake which wasn’t made clear or even hinted at. In fact, IIRC, it was made out to be Winston purposefully rorting the system.

              And at that point there it becomes a calculated smear.

              Now, I happen to think that people who engage in a calculated smear, especially to influence an election, should be held to account.

            • One Anonymous Bloke 1.2.1.1.2.4

              James, think of some of the things I could* repeat about you which are true, which nonetheless might breach your privacy.

              Imagine if I were to do this with malice. Would you consider that a crime? Are you cuddling up to crims, James?

              *if I knew anything about you other than what I can read here.

            • cleangreen 1.2.1.1.2.5

              James are you that gullible?

              “Peters is doing that for her – suing journalist for something they repeated which was true.”

              On that note then answer this;

              Do you believe everything journalist say do you???

              You asked “Is this what the msm is going to be like under this government?”

              As to the jouranists he is suing;

              In this case they pejured themselves by soliting “private documents”

              Do you believe in our human rights to privacy?

              You are a National supporter, we note, and I guess you believe it was fundermentally right for John Key to allow us all to be exposed to wide ranging survielllence by a back door system to the foriegn NSA as he did allow this, so you maybe have no concerns for privacy rights for all then???

        • Stunned mullet 1.2.1.2

          Yes there are. You should get off the Internet and chat to more of them face to face.

      • Morrissey 1.2.2

        …their sports jock red neck audience

        Don’t call bigots “rednecks”. The most vicious bigots in New Zealand are people like Garth “The Knife” McVicar, Don Brash, Leighton Smith, Mike Hosking, and John Ansell—other than the Knife Man, they’ve never done a day of hard work in the sun between them.

        • rhinocrates 1.2.2.1

          I would add Mapp to that list – the mask definitely slipped yesterday.

          • Macro 1.2.2.1.1

            Yes if he – a Law Commissioner – could not see that how an International Criminal Tribunal for Rwanda run by the UN would involve Judges, Prosecutors, and Defence….then he is not fit to be a Law Commissioner.
            The statement on the Green web site was entirely accurate. It was he and his ilk who are the ones being duplicitous.

            • Stunned mullet 1.2.2.1.1.1

              You have completely misrepresented what Wayne Mapp said.

              Thank-you Golriz

              • Muttonbird

                It’s too late for Wayne. He didn’t read the rules.

                • Stunned mullet

                  i have no idea if he did or didn’t read the rules.

                  In my opinion he often posts quite reasonably and is often subjected to abuse by other commenters for no other reason than who he is.

                  • McFlock

                    That’s a fair comment in his case, he normally is pretty reasonable, and on occasion some people in my opinion do react disproportionately to what he says simply because of who he was.

                    But he tried to overegg what was basically a reasonable description on a party bio page. He also overegged comments people made here about Turei as being “completely uncritical”. And he’s been commenting here long enough to know that anyone referring to a dataserver as a conscious entity risks a ban.

                    And if Macro significantly misrepresented what Wayne said (I don’t think they did), it was far less significant than the degree to which wayne misrepresented the party bio issue. As far as I am aware, nobody has presented a single interview where she in any way concealed what her various roles were. Literally the only instances I’ve seen tories present were her brief party bio paragragph (which is at worst ambiguous, but she probably did authorise the final version), and news articles that use their own words and own shoddy editing to describe what she did. The raw material she provided them, however, was open, honest, and explicit.

                  • weka

                    He has a history of posting reasonably, and I agree he gets attacked for who he is and what his politics are. But in the past four or five months something changed, and now he often comes across as trolling or astroturfing. That’s what he was doing the other day when he got banned. If we wants to align himself with the Dirty Politics crowd he’ll need to be more careful in how he expresses himself.

              • Macro

                This is what Mapp wrote:

                The issue is not whether Golriz Ghahraman can defend criminals, even of the very worst kind. It is whether she represented herself correctly on the Green website and on various interviews. Giving an impression, or indeed saying directly that she was motivated to prosecute the worst human rights offenders, when that is not in fact the whole truth is bound to lead to difficulty. That is especially so when defending the oppressed has been virtually her whole reason to become an MP.

                my bold
                By saying that she was not represented herself correctly is in effect saying that the statement on the website is duplicitous. This representation of the statement by Mapp can only be construed as such if this statement was in anyway untrue

                Her studies at Oxford, and work as a lawyer for the United Nations and in New Zealand, have focused on enforcing human rights and holding governments to account. Golriz has lived and worked in Africa, The Hague and Cambodia putting on trial world leaders for abusing their power, and restoring communities after war and human rights atrocities, particularly empowering women engaged in peace and justice initiatives.

                Indeed in Cambodia she acted for the prosecution.
                Her work in Africa and The Hague and Cambodia was under the auspices of the UN. In Rwanda under the International Criminal Tribunal for Rwanda. The need for defence advocates in criminal proceedings is well understood and should be obvious to a Law Commissioner. So his call that the statement was duplicitous was itself duplicitous. The Green website statement was entirely factual and calling it ambiguous was simply false (and he would have known that).

          • marty mars 1.2.2.1.2

            Yep. I get very offended by his spin and it disappoints me to see how low he is in his assertions of known and proven untruths.

    • Ed 1.3

      And now bully boy Soper joins in.
      There is now quite a long list of old rich men ready to put the boot in….

      Such balanced coverage from our awful media.

      http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11949313

      This sooooooo smells of dirty politics.

      • Sanctuary 1.3.1

        “…This sooooooo smells of dirty politics…”

        Soper tells us “…Well a series of photos have been sent to me,…”

        Who by Bazza? Quinn? Farrar? Slater? What a complete prick. He is abusing his position to shameless launder dirty politics into the Herald. The old bastard really has no excuse. He is as dirty as Slater and twice as compromised.

        Soper should Google Mervyn Thompson, and pray modern young woman are not as radical as their mums and aunts.

        • Ed 1.3.1.1

          It wouldn’t be interesting to find out what information compromises Soper so much that he can be relied on to so reliably write hit pieces for his owners.

          And make du Plessis Allen toe the part line as well.

          • Reality 1.3.1.1.1

            Soper in his workplace has displayed extreme temper tantrums worse than a two year old. Thoroughly nasty individual. For him to be doing character assassinations on others is total hypocrisy.

            • Muttonbird 1.3.1.1.1.1

              I’ve heard Lloyd Burr is a preening gallery bully-boy in the parliament precincts also.

          • OncewasTim 1.3.1.1.2

            Well maybe (applying Soper’s own standards) we should ask his former partners what they think of him.
            But even though he isn’t, we’re above all that yes?

      • Patricia 1.3.2

        Seems to me that it might be open season on high profile Green Party women.

    • Morrissey 1.4

      I’m just watching Garner’s aggressive and disrespectful inquisition of Golriz now. His demeanour has been cold and harsh throughout. What a contrast with his adulation yesterday of that shepherd-killing coke snorting groper.

      Transcript coming up.

      • Ed 1.4.1

        Couldn’t bear to watch

      • halfcrown 1.4.2

        Agree 200% Morrisey I saw this disgusting inquisition, It is a pity that prat Garner does not show the same “gotcha” enthusiasm with English over the Todd Barclay affair and the Chinese Spy they have in the National party. Just two items that come to mind. I am sure there are many more if they wanted to get stuck into something.

        • Morrissey 1.4.2.1

          He’s got that ghoul Don Brash on after 8 o’clock. The contrast in tone will be instructive.

    • Macro 1.5

      Last week it was the Refugees on Manus and the offer to resettle 150 per year here. This week it’s to be Golriz..
      What piece of vile, redneck hatred, bias, and bile will they dream up for next week?

      • greywarshark 1.5.1

        It sounds like they are at least reliable in their standard of choice for subject and method. So good to check on to see the latest visceral sacrifice and blood letting. Drs Noooooo.

    • mary_a 1.6

      Absolutely spot on there Ed (1). It is a witch hunt and a vicious one at that, against a strong successful woman. Golriz and others like her it seems, is for some reason deemed a threat by middle aged/old, bigoted white men!

      Next, the ducking stool will be brought out, demonstrating how backwards NZ is becoming in its mindset!

      • North 1.6.1

        Mary_A…….”[Golriz] deemed a threat by middle aged/old, bigoted white men!” Add ‘narcissistic’. That’s why I try very hard to avoid both Garner and Hosking……their appalling narcissism.

  2. Sanctuary 2

    The thing to remember about Soper, Garner, Richardson, Hoskings etc is their influence is in freefall. No one listens or reads them who isn’t looking for confirmation bias. The Murdoch press in alliance with the Blairite chattering classes couldn’t stop Corbyn and here the constant barrrage of attacks on Labour didn’t stop them being able to form the government after the last election.

    Under FPP systems old and angry white men and what they represent have clung on to their influence because they can still command pluralities in marginal electorates. Under MMP the last election exposed their electoral bankruptcy in NZ. The National party strategy of driving NZ First and the Greens out of parliament so casually racist white folk can rule unimpeded by pesky upstart refugee lawyers from Iran didn’t work and will never work as demographics change.

    • greywarshark 2.1

      But the old white men’s bile becomes more concentrated and more charged as time goes on. If they explode some day, watch out, the effects will be destructive.

  3. dv 3

    BUT she TOLD a reporter before the election of her involvement.
    BUT it was edited out because of space requirements!!!!!

    So who hid what??????

    • Ed 3.1

      Kirsty Johnston reported this on Twitter.
      She doesn’t seem impressed by her editors.

      ‘The story was supposed to be part of a pre-election series, but we used it when she was elected. Call me naive but I assumed getting defence experience was normal, not a big deal, and there were other more relevant things to include’

      ‘To clear things up: I interviewed @golrizghahraman about six weeks before the election, we openly discussed her time in Rwanda as a defence intern. It (like much of her story) didn’t make my final story due to space. ’

      • dv 3.1.1

        Thanks ed, for the reference. Could not find it again.

        • garibaldi 3.1.1.1

          Genocide was committed by both sides in Rwanda. Genocide was done by the USA in Vietnam. Genocide is being done in many places, such as Myanmar and Palestine and with the Kurds. Yet it is such an emotive word it is avoided when the narrative doesn’t suit the West.
          This Golriz business is a superb example of DP at work. A storm in a tea cup is inflated into a major confrontation by well coordinated media dickheads without a brain between the lot of them. Shame on them and their employers.

          • greywarshark 3.1.1.1.1

            They, the media dickheads, have brains all right, the problem is that they are diseased, in an advanced state of breakdown and so presenting skewed thoughts.

    • James 3.2

      In every paper ?

    • mauī 3.3

      It’s also on her publicly available online CV. Not exactly hard for anyone to find.

  4. Carolyn_Nth 4

    Interesting extra charges being brought by Peters against some Nats and Lloyd Burr, regarding his super over-payment.

    Newsroom reports:

    Peters, aged 72, is also alleging in an unorthodox draft Statement of Claim filed with the High Court at Auckland that prominent Newshub political reporter Lloyd Burr is a “National Party political activist”.

    He also wants money from one of the country’s top civil servants, the head of the Ministry of Social Development, Brendan Boyle.

    In the draft Statement of Claim filed on Monday, Peters seems to be challenging the legality of the past (and previous) governments’ ‘No Surprises’ policy where civil servants were expected to brief ministers on politically controversial matters.

    He calls “unlawful” the actions of Boyle, in telling two ministers about Peters’ super overpayment. He claims Boyle “knew or was reckless if he did not know” that the two ministers Anne Tolley and Paula Bennett “would utilise the intended plaintiff’s private MSD information for political purposes including discrediting the intended plaintiff in the forthcoming general election”.

    “If”, Peters’ draft claim goes on, “the no surprises policy is lawful” then Boyle breached it in any case.

    Peters calls the group of National ministers and staffers, which also included Steven Joyce, English’s chief of staff Wayne Eagleson and party communications officer Clark Hennessy, by a made-up title, the National Party Re-election Committee and gives it the acronym NPRC throughout his document.

    He claims this “NPRC”, once informed by Boyle, would attempt to use what Peters has previously labelled a “mystery” error to “discredit him with the intent of reducing [Peters’] party vote to below five percent and to prevent him from winning the electoral seat of Northland”.

    On the media’s reporting of the story, Peters alleges the “NPRC” arranged to leak the fact of his overpayment “to the media by use of journalists who were part-of and/or sympathetic to the National Party campaign to be re-elected — or alternatively would be reckless as to their obligations” when they knew of the payments.

  5. Carolyn_Nth 5

    Whoa! NZ Herald’s David Fisher on John Key’s lies about the Moment of Truth, and still won the election that followed.

    Sir John Key’s story of how and why he canned a “mass surveillance” programme are at odds with official papers detailing development of the “Speargun” project.

    The issue blew up in the final days of the 2014 election with Key claiming the programme was long-dead and had been replaced by a benign cyber-security system called Cortex.

    Key always claimed the Speargun project to tap New Zealand’s internet cable was stopped in March 2013.

    But new documents show development of Speargun continued after the time he had said he ordered a halt – apparently because the scheme was “too broad”.

    Instead, they show Speargun wasn’t actually stopped until after Key was told in a secret briefing that details were likely to become public because they could be in the trove of secrets taken by NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden.

    • Cinny 5.1

      Wow, geez am so glad he quit being PM, is such a liar, and with stories like this coming out, once again one wonders what were his real reasons for quitting, because the… resigning for family reasons or health is such a bogus excuse, used often by Catholic priests when they have committed heinous crimes.

      “The NZ Herald has found – after three years of refusals and information going missing – that the former Prime Minister’s version of events doesn’t match that of documents created at the time.”

    • His ‘Sir’ needs to be removed ASAP and he probably needs to be jailed for lying to the people of NZ as a public servant (Unfortunately, that latter doesn’t appear to be a crime despite it being immoral).

      • cleangreen 5.2.1

        Yes Draco exactly,

        I stand in support to have Sir removed from this dispicable man as he has been proven to be untrustworthy and honest at every turn.

        Defrock the man.

  6. Ed 6

    There is such a fuss made of our ‘free’press but as every arm of our media is an uncritical propaganda outlet for neoliberalism, how is it democratic?

    • Carolyn_Nth 6.1

      Except for some egs, as above: David Fisher; Kirsty Johnston.

    • Grey Area 6.2

      Brent Edwards was talking about freedom of the Press on Morning Report today. I I agree with him that freedom of the Press is important to a healthy democracy but so are journalists not being agents of Dirty Politics and the media not engaging in hatchet jobs and witch hunts.

      Morning Report

      • Ffloyd 6.2.1

        Absolutely agree G A. That is just what I said to my husband when I heard this, this morning. Our so called media is getting too precious by half.Why do they think that they can print any unsubstantiated and highly inflammatory garbage they like and not get pulled up on it. Key has gone. Time they realized it and learned how to be real journalists and not just purveyors of their own opinions.

      • Ed 6.2.2

        Freedom of the press means freedom for the 1% to own the press,
        I don’t want or need that freedom.

  7. gsays 7

    Something isn’t right, or I am missing something.

    A wife pushes her husband, he falls, and dies.
    Coroner and others accept her version of events, no charges are laid.
    Five years later, the guilt is too much and the wife confesses.
    The wife (Susan Mouat), is now appealing her sentence of home detention.

    It gets curiouser, Susan Mouat had 16 convictions, mostly for violence and threatening against her husband, Bruce Mouat.

    I can’t help but feel if the genders were reversed, home detention would not be the sentence imposed.
    https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/99305539

    • Cinny 7.1

      Home D is cheaper than jail, that’s the only reason I can think of.

      Gender should have nada to do with sentencing, circumstances yes, but gender NO.

    • savenz 7.2

      Unless he was violent when he was drunk… often family violence results in convictions of the abused as well as abuser as they file charges against each other.

    • North 7.3

      From personal ‘at-the-coal-face’ observations throughout the years since Home D was introduced, the availability of Home D is more impacted by how well off you are than by gender. Generally the well off can propose a Home D address which ticks all the Corrections/Police boxes. The poor so frequently can’t. “Off to jail with you poor person!” Same applies to electronically monitored bail.

  8. eco maori 9

    The Labour and national spokesman on breakfast look like they were having a good debate before going on camera. I no I’m not using my Maori spelling correctly but ha everyone gets it I already had a lecture from my wife . We got 2 mokos for 2 days I take my hat off to you Lady’s for all the hard work in razeing our mokos they keep me busy. Ka pai

  9. greywarshark 10

    Wikipedia is again calling for money, and suggesting to me that you might just give $3 which if everyone did would provide all they need for yonks. I don’t know just what it costs, but it must cost a lot in hardware, software, and particularly time, and they do a hell of a good job.

    Those of us who treasure the ability to have open facts easily accessible, which are moderated and checked by people with integrity who care for high standards of information and clear thinking, please give them some dough. And we should do it regularly. I can’t afford much but if I keep pumping in some then this boon to us all will keep going. Also with The Standard.

    We have to do what we say, we want democracy, we support democracy, we can’t just sit at a keyboard and say so, we can’t just demonstrate and protest, we need all of our input of those who will do more than just lift a finger to a key and drop it.

    We need ongoing commitment, money, etc. to keep the good institutions, entities formed going, have to keep them from dropping away. They are hard to start, to build, to refine, to nip and tuck, expand here limit there, fit for purpose, they must be treasured and kept running. We need respect for each other, disagree and discuss, learn and amend, with some backslapping and congratulations, praise now and then. And we should always keep in mind and know, that always we will be a minority. Keep the yeast working in the loaf etc. Let’s do it.

  10. Brigid 11

    The truth will out.

    Today at the Swiss Press Club in Geneva, 21st Century Wire Associate Editor Vanessa Beeley presented a dossier on the dubious UK-backed NGO known as the ‘White Helmets’ which included up-to-date information on their links to al Qaeda affiliates in Syria, as well as exposing the western propaganda organisation’s many bogus claims, including having ‘saved 99,220 lives‘ since the western-funded construct based in Turkey was created in late 2013.

    Despite the efforts of alleged ‘free speech’ advocate NGO Reporters Without Borders to shut this event down, Swiss Press Club head Guy Mettan went ahead as scheduled. Reports Without Borders even went as far as to draft a formal complaint demanding the event be cancelled, alongside protestations by UK-based ‘Syrian opposition’ group Syria Campaign.

    http://21stcenturywire.com/2017/11/28/vanessa-beeley-presents-new-white-helmets-expose-to-swiss-press-club-geneva/

    • greywarshark 11.1

      Cripes who to believe these days? I saw an image of white helmets supposedly doing good and thought positively about them, now it sounds as if they are a plant or a device to appear and be well regarded.

      Then the Reporters without Borders – what are they? Are they like the one I looked at yesterday the Veritas outfit in the USA, so busy trying to prove wrongdoing in the media, that they will use wrongdoing to get quotes that they can manipulate for their own ends.

      Do lots of young-ish people think that you can make up morality and ethics as you go along simply based on expediency at the time?

      • Brigid 11.1.1

        I don’t think it is necessarily the youngish people at fault, but those with an agenda, i.e. NATO, Israel, Saudi, UK, US.

        “In 2007 the IAEA promoted false information about Israel’s bombing of a supposed nuclear reactor in Syria, burying clear evidence that the site was in fact not a reactor. Claims that a sarin gas attack last April was carried out by the Assad regime are similarly dubious. Just as the false claims of “weapons of mass destruction” against Iraq were used to initiate a war that destroyed Iraq, these claims seem aimed at taking down two more of Israel’s perceived enemies, Syria and Iran.”

        https://israelpalestinenews.org/false-claims-syria-lay-groundwork-destroy-israeli-targets/

      • Andre 11.1.2

        Hey greywarshark, I recommend you do a bit of research on 21st Century Wire before deciding how much credibility you’re going to give their reports.

        • greywarshark 11.1.2.1

          Really you have hit on the point I was making thank you Andre.

          • Andre 11.1.2.1.1

            Oh, and you’re awfully charitable to Project Veritas. Right-wing sliming operation is closer to the mark. They get their videos and then very selectively edit them to create the appearance of something that just isn’t there.

            https://www.salon.com/2017/11/28/reminder-james-okeefe-has-a-history-of-failing-to-discredit-journalists/

            Personally, I tend towards suspicion of any of these alternative sources. If it looks like they’ve actually got an interesting story, then I’ll go to the effort to research the source, and start looking for corroboration from other more reliable sources.

            So to take the White Helmets story as an example, the people making allegations about close links between the White Helmets and terrorists pretty much all trace back to RT (Russian government propaganda), Eva Bartlett and Vanessa Beeley (in turned linked to RT and InfoWars) etc. They make claims that appear to have been reliably debunked (such as claiming that a number of rescue videos showing a child named Aya are actually staged using the same child, debunked by closely looking at the child who is clearly different). The alternative view, that the White Helmets are more or less what they claim to be (with a layer of glossing themselves up on top), appears to be corroborated by the likes of Medecins sans Frontieres, so I find that view a fair bit more credible.

            On the relatively rare occasions one of the likes of NYT, WaPo, TheGuardian, CNN etc really do get a major story badly wrong (such as Iraq WMDs in 2003), one or more of the others will be presenting the counterview (in 2003 that was the reports of Hans Blix the UN weapons inspector working in Iraq, carried by most of those outlets at the same time).

      • Ed 11.1.3

        Believe independent media before the media owned by the finance industry.

    • savenz 12.1

      Should ban it outright. Foreign investment is just another word for future profits going offshore. I’d like to see a maximum percentage (say 15%) only of assets in any area being owned offshore from commercial property to forestry.

      Also a yearly tax on those holding assets offshore but sure under the trade agreements that’s not possible because they are all designed to keep the neoliberal model going and not worry about trifle’s like local jobs or wealth or smaller countries becoming banana republics.

      • Should ban it outright. Foreign investment is just another word for future profits going offshore. I’d like to see a maximum percentage (say 15%) only of assets in any area being owned offshore from commercial property to forestry.

        Should ban foreign ownership outright as it just makes the people of NZ serfs to foreign owners.

        Also a yearly tax on those holding assets offshore but sure under the trade agreements that’s not possible because they are all designed to keep the neoliberal model going and not worry about trifle’s like local jobs or wealth or smaller countries becoming banana republics.

        True as we’ve been informed many times that FTAs prevent the banning of foreign ownership. Which means that these FTAs are all about forcing trade rather than free-trade.

        • Ed 12.1.1.1

          Complete ban needed for our sovereignty.
          And take back land sold to foreigners previously.
          At the price they paid.

      • greywarshark 12.1.2

        Hey if we could become a banana republic we might get somewhere. We might have animals and pohutukawas die off with changes from climate and multi million people movement, but when it gets warmer we could start growing our own bananas and have another export crop. We wouldn’t be able to sell them to each other because that would upset the import business of some monopoly foreign corporation but hey you can’t have everything. When you are as small as NZ on the world stage, we can always find a dear little mousehole to creep into, so to speak.

  11. eco maori 14

    To all the people out there that are trying to give up smoking here is some information on our human anatomy when one has high blood pressure this is a result of the food we eat the stresss that we have in our lives and a oppressed culture in my view. So what happens is high blood pressure puts more strain on one’s blood vessels and what happens when a system is under pressure well something burst and that is not good if one of your blood vessels bust in your brain that is a stroke and if you survive that you could be in a state of being totally immobile someone will have to wash you everything you do now will have to be done by a care worker.
    So I say again look at your mokos and no that you are the only one who will care and teach your mokos right from wrong
    E.C.T.Go to the doctors and get your blood pressure checked an get the medication to lower your blood pressure to safe levels. I have had to dubble my blood pressure medication because of all the wasted attention that they are giving me. I notice that with my blood pressure back down to normal levels I’m not sweating no were as much as I use to
    And I feel a lot better high blood pressure can cause a lot of health problems I no a lot of people who do not go to a doctor and a few that have passed that are of the same era as me and thats not good Ka pai

    • greywarshark 14.1

      Neighbour died early because of emphysema. Was sucking in little ‘sips’ of air at the end. The lungs are so important and we take them for granted I reckon.

    • McFlock 14.2

      BP is one of the most important health measures (as long as you measure it regularly and don’t freak out just because you had a spike that day).

      Years ago, when I was still young, I was working 80 or hundred hour weeks for a short period. Had a few hours off, so watched that night’s episode of buffy. Felt a drip-drip-drip, had a spontaneous nosebleed. Veins popping in my head is not good, thinks I, so go to the doctor. The nose was fine. But my 180/120 blood pressure was very close to being hospitalised out of general principle. After lots of tests, the nephrology folk decided that although my lifestyle wasn’t pristine, the main reason my blood pressure was high was “well, it just is”.

      So that was the first thing to break as I aged and, frankly, modern medicine is about the only reason I’m alive today. Although I do find it fascinating what drives it up and down at each visit to the doc.

  12. savenz 15

    Still no applicants for $150k adventure park job

    http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2017/11/still-no-applicants-for-150k-adventure-park-job.html

    That’s interesting on why the job has not been taken. One reason could be lack of advertising or nowadays with so much insecure work, many are reluctant to move their lives away because anyone can lose their job within 90 days… or get no compensation if anything goes wrong.

  13. savenz 16

    Lessons for NZ deforesting (Landcorp selling off land into foreign ownership as we speak as well as clearing for dairy), damming for irrigation for Dairy in drought areas, continuing pollution of our lakes and rivers and giving water away virtually for free across conservation land to be sold offshore.

    “The Amazon effect: how deforestation is starving São Paulo of water
    A drought two years ago triggered fighting, looting and official ‘states of calamity’ across the metropolis, with the army preparing to send in troops. Now, new warnings suggest it could happen again – and point to a surprising culprit”

    https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2017/nov/28/sao-paulo-water-amazon-deforestation

  14. eco maori 17

    I have already told the story of how my teeth got accidentally knocked out with a hammer while someone was killing a opposum. Well here’s another story on my first day at high school Yes I made it to high school I had to sow up some old pants and the uniform was a bit small I had plastic wing tip shoes and purple socks I did not know my socks were purple I found out from this elder girl who called me captain purple an said my socks were purple lol I told her we’re to go as I did not no I was colour blind and still though they were blue later on that day someone was trying to bull me while I was swimming in the school pool and when I told him we’re to go I spat my teeth out in the pool I got a m8 to help me find they but the bell rang and he went to class so 1 hour later I found my teeth and joined him I class. We fast forward a couple of years and my crew m8 made a mistake on a fishing boat I ended up in the drink the skipper just about had a heart attack as they turn around to pull me out of the sea I said a couple of foul words and spat my teeth out lol never going to find those. Ka pai

    • greywarshark 17.1

      eco maori
      You’re no toothless warrior and definitely a survivor! Ka pai also

      • Mister Smokey 17.1.1

        Eco maori, Greywarshark speaks true and has told ya!

        All I’ll say is, keep fishing, catch the right fish one day, and there they’ll be, your clackers, right there on the plate. Ataatanui!

  15. Big claim coming up next year. The analysis and information on this one will be epic – what was lost will be found, will be shared and will move us toward tino rangatiratanga.

    Below from fbook.

    KAUPAPA INQUIRY 2018

    The Mana Wahine claim is set down to be heard by the Waitangi Tribunal in early 2018 as per the memorandum issued on 16 November 2017 by Chief Judge Issac.

    “Claims alleging prejudice to Māori women arising from Crown Treaty breaches have been set down for separate inquiry in the kaupapa programme. The claims relate mainly to the status and treatment of wāhine Māori, in both historical and modern times. The claims allege that the Crown has failed to protect the rangatiratanga of Māori women and their right to non-discrimination on grounds of gender, with serious prejudicial consequences for their social, economic, cultural and spiritual well-being and their access to leadership roles”

    • greywarshark 18.1

      One possible claim would be hard to deal with. I remember hearing about this Maori woman of standing who took a pakeha husband. She married him and her ancestral land went with her, and became her husband’s estate under pakeha law at that time. When he divorced her, he owned all her people’s lands and their resources at his disposal. This was about the time of the whaling so must have been early on. Anyway the tribe lost much. It would be sad if it was true and it did happen. How to recover that or reasonable compensation?

  16. rhinocrates 19

    Interesting because The Economist is the neoliberal’s Pravda:

    (They insist on calling it ‘liberalism’, which is in economic history, more or less correct, but it gets wrongly associated with liberal social progressivism when in fact it’s a monoculturalist, assimilationist ideology… but that’s another story)

    http://www.economist.com/news/books-and-arts/21731615-robert-peston-has-not-single-family-member-or-friend-who-voted-brexit-he-aims?fsrc=scn/fb/te/bl/ed/amemberoftheliberaleliteonhistribesfailingshairshirttime

    The very elites that have devoted so much energy to rigging the system for their own advantage did little to address Britain’s fundamental problems, and have frequently compounded them. A disproportionate share of Britain’s wealth goes into feeding the housing industry rather than into starting businesses. A third of British firms have seen no growth in productivity since 2000. The north-east and Wales are some of the poorest regions in northern Europe. No wonder 52% of the British population took the chance offered by the referendum to give the finger to their betters.

  17. joe90 20

    One wonders whether any of the nat’s very own blue dragon donors received any warnings.

    Turnbull government ministers have questioned the loyalty of the strife-prone Labor senator Sam Dastyari to Australia after a report that he tipped off a Chinese political donor that his phone was probably being tapped by security agencies.

    Fairfax Media reported on Wednesday that Dastyari had warned the Chinese Communist party-linked political donor Huang Xiangmo last year that his phone was probably tapped by government agencies, including the US government.

    https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2017/nov/29/sam-dastyaris-loyalty-to-australia-questioned-after-he-tipped-off-chinese-donor

  18. adam 21

    If you have the time 15 minutes. This is quite disturbing video, the prosecution of the J 20.

  19. repateet 22

    Some pundits have Nikki Kaye as a possible future National leader. I think she has the key attributes.
    Today in the House the answer to her prime question showed what a smart-arse she is.

    Mind you, trying to turn something like whether kids can start school before they’re 5 into the issue of the century, is a challenge. Except to those who think saying kids can’t start before they’re 5 is the crime of the century.

    • Chris 22.1

      Maybe you could give a list to the opposition on what it is you think is important enough to hold the govt to account on.

      And they will have a guide to work with

      • repateet 22.1.1

        If you saw Ms Kaye you might understand.
        “Hon NIKKI KAYE to the Minister of Education: Does he stand by his statement in relation to changing the age at which children can start school that it is “not unusual for a Minister or Government to state its intention” on an issue before going through the Cabinet process; if so, why?”

        She was trying to be smart and continue the implication to cretins that Hipkins was up to no good, was out of order and consequently not up to the job.

        The initial answer was that Kaye as Minister had done the same thing with a $37million announcement which hadn’t gone through the due process she thinks Hipkins should have used.

        The ‘list’ would only have to say “Something serious and meaningful not mindless politicking which merely accentuates the dumb things National did and the way they acted in Government and the churlish childish state they are in now.”

        Witness witless Simon Bridges today (and just about every day) too.

        • Chris 22.1.1.1

          I think you should read the Hansard for the last 25 odd years

          This is hardly a new phenomenon

        • Chris 22.1.1.2

          But I do agree it is rather pointless

          • Pete 22.1.1.2.1

            Thank you. I was astounded at Ms Kaye’s performance. I can understand her wanting to hold Hipkins to account and have him justify his approach but to do it and so openly expose herself?

            • cleangreen 22.1.1.2.1.1

              Agreed Pete,

              Niiki Kaye is just another paper tiger tring to show teeth but the act is far less convincing than she thinks.

              She should learn “softly sloftly catchie monkey” not the stupid bark of a rabbid dog; – like all her clan on that side of the house.

  20. Zorb6 23

    Rising rents is a huge problem.It seems increasing the accomodation supplement,just fuels a rise.Houses sitting empty,idle land banking,this Govt needs to address the issue,quickly.
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11949430

    • Muttonbird 23.1

      I read there’s 8000 odd Air BNBs booked in Auckland for the summer period. Queenstown has moved to restrict temporary Air BNB providers because these places are sitting idle all year when families could be living in them.

      I’d be very happy if this government threw Air BNB out of the country altogether until such time as we had enough houses for people and until such time as we moved away from amateur landlordism as a vehicle to retirement.

      • weka 23.1.1

        “Queenstown has moved to restrict temporary Air BNB providers because these places are sitting idle all year when families could be living in them.”

        You sure about that? I thought they were just making people register as a business and pay higher rates.

        • Muttonbird 23.1.1.1

          My read was that many houses were empty for 10 months of the year in the middle of an accomodation problem. That and the obvious lobbying from the hotel industry in Queenstown wanting Air BNB providers to be treated the same as hotel accomodation providers.

          It’s the same argument for Uber. The model is unsustainable, in Uber’s case because only students and part timers will be able to drive for those low wages and are they able to meet transport regulation requirements? In AirBNB’s case because it takes too much housing off the market, empty for 10 months of the year.

        • Muttonbird 23.1.1.2

          Are you an Uber and Air BNB user?

          I used Uber a couple of times in Chiang Mai – THB100 instead of THB300 for a tuktuk which is fine. Uber drivers wouldn’t pick up in tourist areas though.

          I used Air BNB once in Sydney for my family (I didn’t go). They were in an apartment block in Freshwater Beach and had to pretend they were family members if questioned by other members of the community. Hardly a pleasant experience.

          The point is when you have providers doing business (in AirBNB’s case) which affects the housing stock and the neighbours then you’re always going to get problems.

          It’s not all about getting cheap holidays.

      • Ed 23.1.2

        Evict air BnB and Uber.
        Companies that do not pay their fair share of tax are not welcome.

  21. Muttonbird 24

    My question: Is Lloyd Burr a National Party activist? He was certainly privy to information delivered by senior National Party ministers and/or senior government aligned public service officials in the formation of his story.

    Computer says, yes.

    http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2017/11/winston-peters-told-to-stop-harassing-journalists.html

    • Ed 24.1

      Lloyd Burr is a National Party activist.

      • One Anonymous Bloke 24.1.1

        In the event that that is true, his employer is still responsible for ensuring that his work is up to scratch. Peters is making a scapegoat.

        • Ed 24.1.1.1

          Nothing wrong with a scapegoat.
          It will serve as a message to the other National Party activists working in the media; Garner, Hosking, Soper, du Plessis Allen, Richardson, Trevett, ……

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