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Open mike 30/07/2020

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, July 30th, 2020 - 127 comments
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127 comments on “Open mike 30/07/2020 ”

  1. bwaghorn 1

    Jacqui dean just claimed national built 30 000 state houses. !!
    On news hub

    • Red Blooded One 1.1

      Did she raise her eyebrow?

      • bwaghorn 1.1.1

        No when challenged she stood her ground !!!

        Bat shit crazy stuff coming out of national these days.

    • Ed 1.2

      Jacqui Dean looks to be just another M.P. compromised by her support of the alcohol industry……

      ‘When questioned by Māori Party MP Tariana Turia, on why she was unwilling to take the same prohibitory line on smoking cigarettes and drinking alcohol as she took on BZP, Ms Dean said Alcohol and tobacco have been with our society for many, many years; It is estimated that alcohol-related conditions account for 3.1% of all male deaths and 1.41% of all female deaths in New Zealand.

      Dean’s Otago electorate is also home to approximately 5% of New Zealand’s wine production, described by the New Zealand Wine Growers Association as a new but aggressively expanding wine area, which is now New Zealand’s seventh largest wine region.’

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacqui_Dean

      • greywarshark 1.2.1

        There are so many ways that our standard of living and health is being decimated by the government and Treasury introduced neolib and freemarket systems. Alcohol has been around for ever but there was so much reaction about its affects in early NZ that it was banned, then reintroduced with control over hours, then after neolib some outlets could open 24/7. Alcohol can ruin people's will to work and stick to the tasks of their role in life, it also spreads to affect the family who adapt to the eccentricities of the addicted one, and the bad affects continue down generations.

        So alcohol in excess taking us down. Further down the post Treetop 4.1 talks about micro businesses failing, and the bad affect on those trying to cope with that. I think small business failure is very high -within three years most have either gone bust, or found it was an expensive lesson as to what they shouldn't do, or they sell out, probably at a loss. No way should people draw on their Kiwisaver. It is interesting that Bill English made serious throat-clearing noises about people saving to impress the old-fashioned ignorant of economics, or old people for whom that idea worked until we had National hyperinflation. But actually the economy feeds off people spending, not people saving, and it keeps many so short on wages they have to borrow to get through till the next payday, so there is business profit to the lenders of that money which can not be more than 100% on the actual loan. Kind eh. So National lie about money and people still soak it up as long the end is blaming the poor for their circumstances.

    • Molly 1.3

      Could be true… does she mean since 1936?

  2. Dennis Frank 2

    Since the Tea Party receded into history, then got Trumped, the latest hot trend in rightist politics in the US seems to be the one pioneered by an online anonymist: Q.

    The insurgent QAnon movement is causing headaches for the Republican Party leadership, who appear to be unwilling to condemn the group for fear of losing much-needed votes, but are also unwilling to give direct credence to a conspiracy theory-driven movement that is loaded with political baggage.

    https://unherd.com/2020/07/is-qanon-on-the-brink-of-power-in-america/

    For those who haven’t gone down the rabbit hole themselves, the broad QAnon narrative is a classic “new world order” conspiracy theory with an interactive and online twist. In QAnon world, the whole planet is controlled by a cabal of satan-worshipping pedophiles. Many QAnon adherents bizarrely believe that this cabal tortures children to extract a substance known as adrenochrome, which they purport (incorrectly) contains hallucinogenic and anti-aging properties. This cabal supposedly controls everything worth controlling, including politicians, the media, and entertainment.

    Trump is believed to be battling this cabal with the help of a group of military intelligence officials known as “Q Team”. The QAnon faithful hold that these military intelligence officials are releasing coded messages about the operation to defeat the cabal on simple messageboards. The posts from the anonymous entity known as “Q” started on the infamous 4chan board, but now Q posts exclusively on 8kun. QAnon followers believe that by decoding these imageboard posts, they can learn the truth of this dramatic, secret war of good vs. evil.

    Ah, good vs evil, where the christians come in. "Thiel is a self-described Christian", and kiwi since 2011 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Thiel#New_Zealand_citizenship)

    At his Park Avenue penthouse — 62 floors high and with a sparkling nighttime view of the Manhattan skyline — billionaire Peter Thiel last fall introduced to his friends an immigration hardliner who he would back with over $1 million to try and transform the Republican Party. https://www.vox.com/recode/2020/7/27/21333636/peter-thiel-kris-kobach-kansas-senate-primary

    Jesus would be thrilled that his followers are becoming so successful in infiltrating the US political establishment.

    While QAnon followers aiming for national offices tend to draw the most attention, QAnon followers are also running for state offices. There are currently 12 known state-level candidates who have endorsed or given credence to the conspiracy theory or promoted QAnon content.

    Looks like history repeating itself. Conservatives have been there & done that before, almost two centuries ago.

    The first third party in the United States, the Anti-Masonic Party, was dedicated to the proposition that freemasons were running a shadow government and were secretly plotting to control the world. Though the Anti-Masonic Party was short lived, at their peak in 1833 they controlled 10.5% of the House of Representatives.

    • Ad 2.1

      Jesus wouldn't recognize them on the street.

      And when he did he would kick their asses all over the park.

    • roblogic 2.2

      There's a lot of truth in the Q conspiracy– America *is* controlled by a cabal of crooks– but their solution (Trump) is wishful thinking in the extreme.

      Also, the Q propaganda is first-rate. Example

  3. Dennis Frank 3

    Looks like a sustained attempt by the chemical industry to poison nature is coming to an end, finally, here.

    Between 1962 and 1987, the site was used by Ivon Watkins, later Ivon Watkins Dow, which mademost of the 2,4,5-T used in New Zealand at the Paritutu site. A byproduct of 2,4,5-T is dioxin, a known cause of cancer. Agent Orange, made of 2,4,5-T, was used in the Vietnam War as a defoliant.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/taranaki-daily-news/news/122266021/corteva-considering-closing-manufacturing-operation-at-new-plymouth-site

    Ivon Watkins Dow later became Dow Agrosciences, which became Corteva Agriscience in June last year following the 2017 merger between industrial giants DuPont and Dow Chemicals.

    Climate Justice Taranaki spokeswoman Catherine Cheung said Corteva must decommission and remediate the site. "We don’t want to have contaminated land. It needs to be done properly.’’

    I live just below the bottom of those photos in the report, around half a kilometer from their boundary, just far enough away to be free from paranoia.

    If they sell their huge unused land-holding and subdivide, it may become the choice real estate option in New Plymouth: particularly the ocean view side, a millionaire's row in waiting. I'm right on the city edge, look out the back window to the countryside across the way & mountain above. Native frogs in my back yard come up from the stream in between suburb & countryside – glad to see the last of the agri-poisoners!

    • Molly 3.1

      Dennis, taking in the photo, I envy you your home location, and I join with you in celebrating the exit of the blot on the lovely landscape. I hope the land is restored to health.

      • Dennis Frank 3.1.1

        Thanks, Molly, yes it'll be an interesting space to watch for a while, I suspect!

    • millsy 3.2

      My cousin was born with a cleft palate which possibly comes from being exposed to the chemicals at the plant (her parents lived near there around the turn of the 1970's). The first 20 years of her life was spent in and out of hospital getting it fixed up.

  4. Tricledrown 4

    Collins cashing in your super to start a business.

    SStupid idea considering 70% of businesses go broke in the first year,Desperate and Dumb

    • Treetop 4.1

      I would like to know the percentage of small established businesses which are failing.

      A failed small business just does not have a financial affect, it has mental consequences as well.

      • Draco T Bastard 4.1.1

        https://nzbusiness.co.nz/article/fail-expos%C3%A9

        Weir says the generally available statistics reveal 2000 businesses are liquidated every year in this country. “Around 45,000 [businesses] start in New Zealand yearly but about the same disappear. So while the number of businesses that officially fall into liquidation is relatively small relative to start-ups, most simply give up and disappear for reasons only the owners will know.”

        When you really look at the stats you have to wonder why the politicians are so caught up on the idea that its small business that drives NZ.

    • I Feel Love 4.2

      "But it's our money!" is the RW argument. I'd like to see KS untouchable to all Partys meddling.

    • Graeme 4.3

      This is classic Crusher. She's talking to the deep base who might not bother voting, not to someone who's been laid off because of covid.

      Even if she gets to be PM (highly doubtful), I doubt the policy will start many more businesses than she crushed cars. $20K is just seed capital, the prospective business person then has to go and get a bank to support them, so has to have a pretty good business plan. You'd be looking at $100K finance package for a business that's going to do as well or better than wages. If the business plan is good enough to get the banks attention, then it wouldn't matter if the $20K was in cash or KiwiSaver, it's still an asset and the bank might prefer it being in KiwiSaver.

      • Sacha 4.3.1

        It effectively liquidates part of the person's Kiwisaver so it becomes an asset the bank now has access to. Pretty clear who would benefit from such a move.

      • bwaghorn 4.3.2

        Deep down under it is the fact that right wingers think your a loser if you're an employee.

        They want us all self employed and scrapping for every cent .

        • AB 4.3.2.1

          In many cases it will be $20k into the pocket of some franchise owner – while the poor 'mark' who bought the franchise, will drive themselves slowly insane trying to scratch a living under impossible conditions.

          • bwaghorn 4.3.2.1.1

            To be brutally honest if your at the point where you need to bust kiwi saver your probably not cut out to run you own business,

    • solkta 4.4

      They gave an example of a plumber who has been laid off. How stupid is that. They would only have been laid off because there is not enough work yet they are supposed to risk their retirement savings competing with their former boss in the same market.

      • Draco T Bastard 4.4.1

        And most plumbers aren't employees once they get past their training anyway. There's a shortage of them (this seems to be a recurring issue) and they tend to be well paid and independent.

      • Pingao 4.4.2

        If you have the qualifications and you are a half way decent plumber you would be out on your own anyway.

    • indiana 4.5

      Are you suggesting that people should not even try? I know you are quoting your % from an article you have read once in the past, but I'd really like to know what type of business/venture makes up that 70%.

      • Draco T Bastard 4.5.1

        Its not a question of not trying but accepting that things aren't going to get better simply because someone became self-employed on a down in the market.

        But we do have to consider that National governs for the rich and those rich people are looking at those funds and thinking of how nice it would be if they were in their pockets instead of those of the poor. And so National invents some BS rhetoric that sounds good but will only work to shift those funds from the poor to the rich.

      • Treetop 4.5.2

        There has to be a better way of getting 20K for a start up other than partially/fully gutting Kiwi saver.

        • Draco T Bastard 4.5.2.1

          A 0% interest loan from the government would do it. Throw in freely available mentors and ongoing financial assistance (still at 0%) until its an obvious make/break and we'll probably get some good businesses going.

          In fact, all business loans should be direct from government and be at 0% with no fees.

  5. Dennis Frank 5

    R.D. Laing, the Scottish psychiatrist, introduced hypersanity more than half a century ago. https://www.psychologytoday.com/nz/blog/hide-and-seek/201908/hypersanity

    Mainstreamers inhabit a psychosocial head-space: normalcy. Representative democracy allows them to impose their hegemony on the rest of us via the binary format of National & Labour, here.

    As Laing puts it: "The condition of alienation, of being asleep, of being unconscious, of being out of one’s mind, is the condition of the normal man. Society highly values its normal man. It educates children to lose themselves and to become absurd, and thus to be normal. Normal men have killed perhaps 100,000,000 of their fellow normal men in the last 50 years."

    Mainstreamers exhibit their normalcy by empowering their political reps, trained by the education system, so the cause and effect relation between that and the hundred million of them who got eliminated in consequence, during the first half of the 20th century, never becomes clear to them. Normalcy is a fog in culture that persists.

    Those who transcend normalcy see through the fog to the deeper reality that encompasses all. The sleep of normalcy Laing refers to above can then lead to awakening from the normal. BLM, woke, etc.

    The Laingian concept of hypersanity, though modern, has ancient roots. Once, upon being asked to name the most beautiful of all things, Diogenes the Cynic (412-323 BCE) replied parrhesia, which in Ancient Greek means something like "uninhibited thought," "free speech," or "full expression."

    Diogenes used to stroll around Athens in broad daylight brandishing a lit lamp. Whenever curious people stopped to ask what he was doing, he would reply: ‘I am just looking for a human being’ — thereby insinuating that the people of Athens were not living up to, or even much aware of, their full human potential.

    Following Laing & the mid-20th century human potential movement, hippies became the spearhead of a cultural transformation that swept through western civilisation. Psychedelic drugs were used to decondition us. Normalcy evaporated.

    Then a younger generation said "Nah! Too weird." They went back to the future via Thatcher, Reagan & Rogernomics. Normal transmission resumed. Good little consumer citizens, doing what they're told. When Diogenes was asked

    where he came from, he replied: "I am a citizen of the world" (cosmopolites), a radical claim at the time, and the first recorded use of the term "cosmopolitan."

    Some folks see the big picture, naturally. Some need intervention, such as from psychedelics, then they see it. The pandemic is producing intervention in normalcy, and imposing it on the masses. Only survivors will make the transition and become hypersane. The contagion curve shows no sign of levelling off.

    The culling process (shown by the death numbers) remains a slow build. Gaia is patient, tolerant of slow learners – but eventually they will run out of time. Normal is the loser's option…

    • Incognito 5.1

      Winners vs. losers; a nice dichotomy I had not heard in a while.

      • Dennis Frank 5.1.1

        It may get recycled somewhat during the election campaign. Voters are meant to be cognizant that Labour or National will win. Trouble is, when they get so busy copying each other all the time, poor normal folk get bewildered and find it hard to identify the winner. In normalcy, I mean. The PM seems an abnormal blip on their mental horizon, so expect them to spot her as a winner.

        • Incognito 5.1.1.1

          Of course, politics is a contest of ideas and the general election is the Olympic Games of (NZ) politics. I wonder who will win the gold glitter this time. Life is all but an enduring competition trying to outdo your fellow humans. In the end, you die anyway. Such is life.

    • weka 5.2

      Nice. I've got a lot of time for Laing.

      "The pandemic is producing intervention in normalcy, and imposing it on the masses."

      Yes. People respond in lots of different ways to being forced awake. I had had some hopes for NZ that we would step up a bit more on this front. Maybe that is happening it's just not being reflected in the mainstream institutions yet. Is suspect that every community now has more people preparing and future proofing their lives. The election will be telling. Which way will NZ jump?

  6. Adrian 6

    So JLR tables/doesn’t table 65,000 Nat donation transactions and details one Inner Mongolian donation of 150,000 dollars from a Chinese company with no known connections to NZ and not a word from the media that I have heard.
    Does the deafening silence mean the media is actually doing a bit more research or just ignoring it?

    • Sacha 6.1

      Weren't there already media stories months ago about that donation? Which would be why he was safe to mention it without triggering the threatened lawyering.

    • Draco T Bastard 6.2

      Probably ignoring it. The MSM is, generally, supportive of National.

      • I Feel Love 6.2.1

        Watch the Garner interview with Dean, he's really trying to help her out but her BS even he can't let go by (even if he still slags off Labour).

  7. Sacha 7

    Winnie, no sense of irony. https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300069404/dead-rat-spit-back-up-green-party-vote-to-repeal-waka-jumping-law-with-national-infuriating-winston-peters

    “By its actions the Green Party has demonstrated to voters that its word cannot be trusted. That is fatal.”

    “When a party can’t keep its word or commitments to its government partners, freely given, voters are entitled to view that party as untrustworthy,’ Peters said.

    • Incognito 7.1

      Peters is singing for his last supper and it’ll be his swan song unless we have a rogue poll on 19 Sep.

      • Tricledrown 7.1.1

        Ironic from Peter's now he is sabotaging the Coalitions deals.

        NZ first will be last at the election.

        Peter's is making a bigger Dick of himself every day the polls reflect his demise.He is out of touch with his messaging no ones listening.Back to the past ideas.

  8. aj 8

    I wonder if the govt considered charging all returnees for meals. Food is something they would have had to pay for if not in isolation, so a charge of say $50 for for 3 meals a day would not seem unreasonable.

    • Rosemary McDonald 8.1

      …$50 for for 3 meals a day would not seem unreasonable.

      Shopping wisely, one can feed an adult for a whole week on fifty bucks. Not including alcohol.

      • I Feel Love 8.1.1

        Interesting there hasn't been too much comparison with paying for returnees accom + food + power with how much benes or min wage workers make and have to live on.

        • Sacha 8.1.1.1

          It is a middle class 'problem', for sure. Which is why both Lab and Nats are addressing it in election year.

        • James Thrace 8.1.1.2

          All things considered, $285/day for the taxpayer to cover MIQ costs isn't that high.

          That's accommodation, food, security, army costs, healthcare and the rest of whatever additional costs there are.

          I have often opined on Twitter that while Citizens shouldn't be charged for returning, I'm not sure we should apply the same logic to permanent residents unless they are ordinarily resident in NZ.

          Permanent Residents are citizens of another country. I'm not sure of just how many PR visas have been issued to people who then promptly buggered off overseas, but if I'm reading DIA figures correctly, it looks like 500k PR visas issued in the last 5 years alone. I can't find figures for prior to 2015. If the last 5 years is anything to go by, that's a lot of PRs coming back to NZ after they haven't set foot in NZ for many years since they got their PR visa.

          It'd be nice to have the PR visa time bound requiring people to apply for citizenship after a set period like many other nations do.

        • Kay 8.1.1.3

          IFL, I suspect returnees wouldn't be expected to live on rice and beans.

          • weka 8.1.1.3.1

            darklol. Yet we expect thousands of others too.

          • I Feel Love 8.1.1.3.2

            Obviously not! Rice & beans. Also, are the detainees spending it all on alcohol, ciggies, drugs & pokies?

  9. Treetop 9

    So who is going to be the bridesmaid NZ First or the Greens?

    When it comes to NZ First they may not even make it to the after party?

  10. The Chairman 10

    The Ministry of Health is planning to fast-track the approval process for a Covid-19 vaccine, and won't rule out offering a supplier indemnity from any potential claims resulting from its use.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/422321/government-may-provide-indemnity-to-nz-supplier-of-covid-19-vaccine

    I have viewed a number of things online of late that bring vaccines into question.

    These are 3 main ones below.

    Kennedy said “it’s not hypothetical that vaccines cause injury, and that injuries are not rare. The vaccine courts have paid out four billion dollars” over the past three decades, “and the threshold for getting back into a vaccine court and getting a judgment – [the Department of Health and Human Services] admits that fewer than one percent of people who are injured ever even get to court.”

    He mentioned another reason not to trust blindly any company currently producing vaccines in the United States. Each one of the four vaccine producers “is a convicted serial felon: Glaxo, Sanofi, Pfizer, Merck.”

    “In the past 10 years, just in the last decade, those companies have paid 35 billion dollars in criminal penalties, damages, fines, for lying to doctors, for defrauding science, for falsifying science, for killing hundreds of thousands of Americans knowingly.”

    https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/kennedy-jr-warns-parents-about-danger-of-using-largely-untested-covid-vaccines-on-kids?fbclid=IwAR1lb6wSSOXZvCS3WB9QNpLPuHd4GuOb093NfzmgjOuJDsFHoSKFq0aYl6s

    • Andre 10.1

      Kennedy Jr is a long-term peddler of misinformation, misrepresentation and all-around bullshit that's just opportunistically using the increased interest in vaccines to grab more clicks. FFS, Kennedy is still a supporter of Andrew Wakefield, the proven fraudster willing to falsify data that played games with vulnerable kids' health apparently just to line his pockets from lawsuits. Kennedy's own family strongly repudiates his views and actions.

      https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/116449847/the-disgraced-antivaxx-doctor-the-supermodel-and-the-measles-epidemic

      https://arstechnica.com/science/2019/11/robert-f-kennedy-jr-is-the-single-leading-source-of-anti-vax-ads-on-facebook/

      https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2019/05/08/robert-kennedy-jr-measles-vaccines-226798

      https://www.sciencealert.com/anti-vaxxers-seize-virus-moment-to-spread-fake-news

      If a vaccine becomes available for use in New Zealand, it will have already undergone field trials involving tens of thousands of volunteers that will be very closely monitored. Because of our COVID-free status, we're likely to be a long way down the list to get supplies, so there will have been millions of people already vaccinated elsewhere in the world. So, there's very little to be concerned about here in NZ.

      https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/world/422197/covid-19-moderna-pfizer-start-decisive-vaccine-trials-eye-year-end-launches

      https://www.news-medical.net/news/20200705/Oxford-COVID-19-vaccine-trials-move-to-stage-3-human-trials.aspx

      If it weren't for the gratuitous risk the unvaccinated pose to the very few people that have genuine medical reasons to not get particular vaccines, I'd be very much in favour of idiots sucked in by anti-vax bullshit to just let the disease cull themselves out of the herd

      • weka 10.1.1

        who decides what a genuine medical reason is?

        It seems most likely that covid vaccines will be released on scale because of the pandemic and bypass some of the usual processes in developing meds. This is likely to cause harm. It's ok to have a conversation about that potential harm and what it means. Downplaying that or out right denying is unhelpful, and will fuel the other side. Either side of the pro-anti debate taking dogmatic or fundamentalist positions won't serve us.

        • Rosemary McDonald 10.1.1.1

          We need to be able to have conversations that address skepticism about the safety and efficacy of vaccines without demonizing doubters.

          https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2019/05/08/robert-kennedy-jr-measles-vaccines-226798

          • Andre 10.1.1.1.1

            Funny how bad-faith artists that get called on their bullshit are quick to cry demonisation.

            • Rosemary McDonald 10.1.1.1.1.1

              Ummm. Andre, buddy. That quote came from one of your links…the one denouncing Robert Kennedy.

        • Andre 10.1.1.2

          In this case, The Chairman is mindlessly posting clickbait by a repeatedly debunked proven bullshit artist without applying even the most rudimentary credibility checking. In this case, Kennedy is full of misrepresentations, distortions, partial truths and all the other tricks of those with intent to mislead.

          It really gets tiresome seeing the same misinformation posted again and again. A brief search of something like anti-vax debunked brings up tons of articles examining the claims made and showing the actual facts of the matter. It's very basic level "ability to assess information credibility".

          Personally I'm done with coddling the feels of idiots that see something then spread it around mindlessly. That kind of bullshit just helps the malicious among us get traction.

          As for determining genuine medical reason, there are things like allergies to components, being immunosuppressed, previous reactions etc etc. Basic skills in navigating around information sources and assessing their credibility finds it very easily. Here's the CDC brief guidelines:

          https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd/should-not-vacc.html

          • weka 10.1.1.2.1

            how many anti-vaxers do you know in real life Andre? How many people that aren't full on anti-vaxer but have concerns?

            • Andre 10.1.1.2.1.1

              Two anti-vaxers that I know of for sure. Three more I don't know for sure either way, but are susceptible to the same bullshit clusters of beliefs and misinformation, and inability to try to fact-check, that seem to go hand-in-hand with anti-vax, so they're probables. I've lost count of how many have expressed concerns or hesitancy and then been pointed to accurate information, and then gone on to embrace vaccination.

              Given my social circles and family tend to be in facts/evidence oriented occupations that value skepticism and consideration of alternatives highly, I consider those numbers of anti-vaxxers and hesitants fairly high.

              • weka

                My point here would be that ridicule and ostracisation is radicalising people away from science. I know these communities quite well, not from an outside, finger pointing, we can force you to change pov, but they're just normal parts of my community. Telling them they're stupid doesn't change them, it entrenches their views.

                NZ is on the cusp of a number of radicalisations, and we really should be paying attention to this. Treating people who have concerns about the covid vaccine like shit won't make them more likely to accept the need for vaccination.

                Myself, at the start of the pandemic I started off thinking a covid vax would be one of the few I might need in my remaining lifetime. Now I'm more cautious, not because of conspiracy theories, but because I can see it will be rushed and that there will be a disability cost and that we will vaccinate before having a good understanding of the disease, and pro-mandate people arguing that disability doesn't matter can in fact get fucked. If you want to solve the problem of lowered uptake, then address the valid concerns and support them being resolved in other ways. People mostly want to feel safe and secure, attend to that and it will get easier.

                • Andre

                  Anyone that has a genuine medical reason not to get vaccinated is one of the people vaccine programmes are trying to protect. But if you are genuinely one of those people, and you still choose to amplify anti-vax messages, I can take a darwinian view of that. I'm just disgusted on behalf of those with genuine medical reason not to be vaccinated that are put at unnecessary risk by that kind of stupidity.

                  As for valid concerns, one of the anti-vaxers main techniques is to take an absolutely miniscule number of problems and blow them way out of proportion. Furthermore, of the very very small number of reported reactions, a tiny proportion of those have any long-term effects and the vast majority fall into the category of short term discomfort.

                  Then there's the attribution problem where many of the long term problems blamed on vaccination aren't in fact due to vaccination, or at worst were an underlying latent problem that would very likely have occurred at some time due to illness, but the mild immune system stimulation that usually accompanies an effective vaccine happened to be the trigger.

                  https://www.researchgate.net/publication/287411502_The_urban_myth_of_the_association_between_neurological_disorders_and_vaccinations

                  I can't be arsed actually trying to put a number to it, but I'd guess the chances are pretty good that for any rural resident the drive to and from the clinic is way riskier than the vaccination.

                  • weka

                    you still haven't said who decides what is genuine. Is it the MoH? My GP? The CDC? Who? And how do they determine that? It's fine if you can't answer that, but having faith in an ideological position isn't good enough for health policy.

                    I'm not amplifying anti-vax messages, I'm saying that anti-vax and pro-mandatory vax position are both problematic and making the situation worse. That you can't tell the difference between what I am talking about and antivaxers basically supports my point there.

            • Mpk 10.1.1.2.1.2

              Exactly weka. Any medical intervention has risk attached and should only be pursued after careful thought. Both my children had most vaccinations but their are enough cases of damage to make you look carefully at what you are exposing your children too. To say we should blindly follow what we we are told is the right path has led to pain and guilt for some parents. Dogmatism when all you are trying to do is what is right by your children is never helpful

              • weka

                One of the big problems is that adverse reaction reporting has not been handled well historically. Even now, people are minimising adverse reactions as an acceptable cost, but the knowledge on this is foggy and messy.

              • Incognito

                Any Covid-19 vaccine will be different in that the most sensitive target population are the elderly, not children. Most clinical trials are done with healthy volunteers and elderly will be poorly represented if at all in such trials. This may have implications for assessing efficacy as well as risks of side effects (adverse events) occurring.

                https://theconversation.com/why-vaccines-are-less-effective-in-the-elderly-and-what-it-means-for-covid-19-141971

                • weka

                  do you think there will be an initial vaccine for elderly people rather than one for the whole population? So more like a flu vaccine rather than a measles one?

                  • Incognito

                    Bit busy at the moment 🙁

                    Short answer is that I don’t know. I’d focus on the most vulnerable people first (i.e. mostly the elderly but also diabetics, etc.), i.e. a targeted roll out. For ‘herd immunity’ a much larger section of the population would need to be vaccinated. I have no idea if two vaccines would make sense from a medical PoV and/or logistically and economically. Interesting question though 🙂

                    • weka

                      we also don't know yet if it's possible to have a vaccine to immunise most of the population against covid, and how long that will last. If it ends up being like the flu vaccine then the conversation changes a bit.

                      So many extremely interesting things still being discovered about the illness and how it effects people's immunity, CV system, nervous system etc. I'm not seeing a good understanding yet about chronic illness from covid, and think there is good reason for caution with the vaccine. If we're vaccinating to 'go back to normal', I think we need to have a very robust discussion about all the costs of that.

          • weka 10.1.1.2.2

            As for determining genuine medical reason, there are things like allergies to components, being immunosuppressed, previous reactions etc etc. Basic skills in navigating around information sources and assessing their credibility finds it very easily. Here's the CDC brief guidelines:

            So you have position that only genuine medical reasons are valid for not vaccinating, but you don't have a position on how that should be assessed in NZ? Or are you saying that the state should take the CDC list and apply it irrespective of individual clinical assessment?

            • weka 10.1.1.2.2.1

              I'm guessing I'm not on the CDC list. My GP has told me in the past to not get a flu vaccine. There will be many people in my situation who don't fit into your philosophical position on vaccines who would be at risk from the kind of mandates I suspect you would prefer. Medical science isn't infallible, and taking hardline positions makes good health care harder not better.

              • Andre

                It may be that taking hardline positions makes good health care harder (but I'd like to see evidence of that before I accept it as likely fact), but any harmful effects will be tiny in relation to the harmful outcomes caused by the spreading of lies and misinformation that's currently going on, as exemplified by the anti-vax mob. 83 pointlessly dead Samoans being just one illustration of this.

                • weka

                  Sure, I understand that the pro-mandated vax crowd are happy enough to sacrifice others on principle without actually designing good systems that might mitigate that. I equally understand why some parts of the community will say fuck you to that position.

                  I'd like to see some evidence that anti-vaxers were responsible for the Samoan deaths. Instead of say the NZ and Samoan govts, or the MoH in NZ. Or neoliberalism for that matter. It's pretty easy to point fingers.

                  Afaik, in NZ, the MoH position is that the number of intentional non-vaccinators is less of a problem than the number of people who don't vaccinate because of lack of access or awareness. The whole anti-anti-vax stuff occludes this.

                • Rosemary McDonald

                  83 pointlessly dead Samoans being just one illustration of this.

                  https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12333910

                  Samoan children hospitalised with measles died after catching MRSA.

                  (A pity the article is behind the paywall..) It is an interesting read and goes a long way to explaining how a usually mild illness with an historic death rate of 1 in 10,000 cases had such a devastating impact in Samoa.

                  As for spreading misinformation….

                  ….this report from 2018

                  https://indopacifichealthsecurity.dfat.gov.au/sites/default/files/Samoa%20Report%20-Scoping%20Mission.pdf?v=1540363081

                  speaks of how The risk of any further outbreaks of vaccine preventable diseases of childhood is declining as immunisation coverage improves.

                  The most recently available (2014) estimates of vaccination coverage range from just above 90% for three doses of diphtheria-tetanus-pertussis (DTP),oral poliomyelitis (OPV)vaccine and the first dose of measles-rubella (MR) vaccinedown to 78% for a second dose of MR.

                  Tragically, in July 2018, two infants were killed when almost inexplicably nurses mixed the MMR vaccine with a muscle relaxant.

                  https://www.stuff.co.nz/world/south-pacific/117952035/nurses-fatal-vaccination-error-in-samoa-was-against-parents-wishes

                  The government halted the vaccination program and the previously rising rates of vaccination plummeted. A vacuum demands to be filled, and in swooped the anti- European medicine brigade.

                  The chronology is very important Andre.

                  • Andre

                    I've had a look for other reports suggesting the Samoan deaths were due to MRSA and found nothing other than the link to your paywalled Herald report. So for now, the credibility on that looks low.

                    But I'm trying hard to work out what you're trying to suggest here, Rosemary.

                    Best I can get to is you think that 83 kids dying that had measles (and maybe got MRSA at the hospital they went to for treatment) that were infected with measles because they weren't vaccinated, probably because of anti-vaxxer activity leveraging off a previous medical operator error (no fault whatsoever of the vaccine), that makes spreading around anti-vax misrepresentation and distortion all good?

                    • weka

                      are you saying that low vax rates in Samoa in 2019 were due to anti-vaxers?

                    • Andre

                      @weka: There's a plethora of credible articles reporting that anti-vaxers had a significant role in Samoa's low vaccination rate, and a complete absence of anything credible saying the opposite.

                      https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/dec/18/these-babies-should-not-have-died-how-the-measles-outbreak-took-hold-in-samoa

                      https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=samoa+measles+anti-vax

                    • Rosemary McDonald

                      Best I can get to is you think that 83 kids dying that had measles …. makes spreading around anti-vax misrepresentation and distortion all good?

                      No, Andre, and do think you are deliberately misinterpreting the information supplied.

                      According to the 2018 report there were no worries about the uptake of vaccinations in Samoa. None.

                      Then in July two Samoan babies were killed by incompetent nurses.

                      The Samoan government suspended the (previously lauded ) vaccination program.

                      More about the multiple factors that led to the tragic deaths from this measles outbreak.

                      https://www.noted.co.nz/currently/currently-world/samoa-measles-how-its-faring-after-the-epidemic

                      There are numerous articles and studies detailing the extreme prevalence of MRSA in Samoa. Go and do the research.

                    • weka

                      The Samoan government suspended the country’s vaccination programme for 10 months, despite advice from the WHO that the country immediately restart the programme. By 2018, only 31% of infants had been vaccinated.

                      “When you pause for 10 months that’s enough time for thousands of kids [without immunity] to accumulate,” said Jose Hagan, regional immunisation specialist for the WHO.

                      “It’s really hard to know how much to attribute to the anti-vaxxer messaging,” said Hagan. “They’ve certainly been extremely active in Samoa, for perplexing reasons. They’re flying all the way to Samoa to spread this message.”

                      While these events played a part in reducing the immunity level; health experts and government sources in Samoa have told the Guardian that once the disease arrived on Samoa’s shores, its impact was worse than it needed to be because of mismanagement.

                      I didn't read through the whole article.

                      /shrug.

                    • weka

                      by all means pull out what you think is in the Guardian piece that supports your assertion.

                  • weka

                    thanks, I'd forgotten that part of it. Buy hey, let's blame it all on the small % of people in NZ who choose not to vaccinate against measles.

                    • Rosemary McDonald

                      weka….the vaccination rates in Samoa only fell after the two babies were killed by the criminally incompetent nurses.

                    • weka

                      yes, I got that (had forgotten about that side of it). I was being sarcastic about Andre's argument.

                    • weka

                      the thing that really bothers me, and it's why I have some understanding of the anti-vaxer position, is the blind faith that mainstream medicine is the best we can do and that mostly it's all good. I'd really like pro-mandatory vax people to spend some time looking at the very large body of evidence of where medical science has fucked up.

        • McFlock 10.1.1.3

          It seems most likely that covid vaccines will be released on scale because of the pandemic and bypass some of the usual processes in developing meds.

          My understanding is that they're not so much bypassing the usual processes, as doing some of them in sync and speeding up the process and intervals between the stages.

          E.g. different vaccines have different types of construction facility. Normally you wouldn't invest in building a factory unless the thing passed all trial phases, and then a business case was made for it (because capitalism).

          But they know how to mass produce each vaccine early on in the development, so Gates is building something like seven factories for the seven most promising vaccines in development. Some, maybe all, of those will fail trials at some stage. But if one is shown to be effective and safe, millions of doses could be produced in short order.

          And business plans in this case are pretty quick beyond calculating production costs, because we know the objective is to treat almost everyone, and there's solid funding for that goal.

          But I haven't heard they're nixing the I, II, & III trials, which are the main safety and efficacy safeguards?

          • weka 10.1.1.3.1

            I would have thought time was a critical component of trials. Not for building factories but for seeing adverse effects, as well as allowing for appropriate processes between lab and human society.

            I haven't checked to see who these two scientists are, but some interesting points in this article,

            Some vaccines are fast-tracking through the regulatory system before studies are completed and with minimal details of experimental results being released. Executives of a big pharmaceutical company whose vaccine is among those closest to the finish line recently sold their stocks after releasing “positive results” that were superficial, partial and that included three of eight healthy young volunteers experiencing severe adverse events.

            Events like this are causing the public to become skeptical. A promising vaccine should have solid data to back it up. Those touting vaccines against COVID-19 that are in clinical trials should be asked to provide comprehensive details and results of their study. This enables objective and rigorous evaluations by the broader scientific community. A lack of complete transparency would be cause for concern.

            https://theconversation.com/fast-covid-19-vaccine-timelines-are-unrealistic-and-put-the-integrity-of-scientists-at-risk-139824

            We also know that a lot of covid research is being released as preprints and not standing up to scrutiny. That alongside the huge issues that medical research has had with its peer review process in the past few decades, I'd say the rationales for caution are sound. The economic and financial pressures are going to be huge too, as well as career ones. Big potential for problems.

            • McFlock 10.1.1.3.1.1

              Caution is reasonable.

              But the executives selling their stocks after an overtly positive announcement that had some not-so-positive details? Yeah, they don't think the company will be selling millions of doses of that vaccine. They think it won't finish the trials.

              The time factor is always there – some things can't be rushed, cultures only grow at a regular rate, some reactions can take time to develop. But some things can be sped up with more work hours (overtime or additional staff), and some things (like building a factory and doing a trial) can be done at the same time without compromising safety.

              The preprint issue is a common route in fast-evolving situations: if lots of people are facing the same unknown situation, knowing what others have tried as soon as possible is better than waiting for reviewer number 3 to argue why the wrong bayesian equation for confidence intervals was used. It was extremely effective during the 20(14?) ebola epidemic.

              Bear in mind it's a global pandemic. We're not talking about a research paper into a condition which 5 people in the world have. We can sit back and ruminate upon these issues as an intellectual exercise because we aren't facing the same problems as most of the rest of the planet. If they produce a vaccine that actually has a genuine mortality rate, it could still be preferable to letting the damned covid have its way.

              • weka

                yeah, let's not sit back and ruminate, but let's lay everything out on the table and look at it properly.

                Mortality isn't the only issue here, but even there, who gets to decide?

                • McFlock

                  Decide what?

                  regulators decide if the vaccine's effectivenes and safety meet levels to be approved for general use – and they might take the current pandemic into account when doing that math.

                  Health officials decide if it gets added to the schedule, and for whom.

                  Funders, including employers, decide whether to pay for people to be vaccinated.

                  Governments will take the externalities into account when deciding whether vaccines should be mandatory (I doubt it, but dolt45 taught me never say never), or whether unvaccinated people will be in mandatory isolation to protect themselves and others, or whether it looks like enough people will get the jab to protect the decliners so who cares about them.

                  In NZ, I wouldn't be surprised if we kept the border controls and didn't vaccinate using the first vaccine to be released, at least for a few months. But in a place really hard-hit by covid-19, I would be equally unsurprised if they threw the first vaccine available at everyone possible, as long as the adverse reactions were at least an order of magnitude below what covid causes. If only to let the crematoria get some downtime.

                  • weka

                    decide who should be vaccinated.

                    What we don't yet know is the efficacy of any vaccine, so a lot of this is kind of moot until we do know.

                    • McFlock

                      I mean, it's not anything new in that regard, so we pretty much know the answers along the likely front of vaccine efficacy vs disease adversity, and the available supplies.

                      If there's a reasonable vaccine and a rando case comes up in a year or two, chances are the govt'll just vaccinate the people most at risk – known close contacts like family and any cops or medical staff who attended, alongside all the standard testing. There might even be a local lockdown. But what with the clusterfuck on the rest of the planet, there likely simply won't be enough stock to be lining up schoolkids and so on throughout the country on an annual basis (or however long the protection lasts).
                      They would probably also jab high-risk professions, e.g. border staff and people working in the isolation centres.

                      When global pandemic controls get it in hand, and more supplies are available, it's quite possible the MoH will enable GPs to prescribe/administer it, but pharmac won't fund routine administering like with the flu vaccine.

                      It'll be like if you want to travel to some parts of the planet 8 months ago, you have the option to drop $x00 on various shots for diseases endemic in those areas, but the govt won't give you those vaccines for free. can't remember the specifics, but a colleague went off the beaten track in Asia a few months ago and shots were an issue.

                      BUT

                      it might get added to the vaccine schedule in future years if covid isn't eradicatable, and just becomes endemic. So same as MMR or what have you.

      • Rosemary McDonald 10.1.2

        If a vaccine becomes available for use in New Zealand, it will have already undergone field trials involving tens of thousands of volunteers that will be very closely monitored. Because of our COVID-free status, we're likely to be a long way down the list to get supplies, so there will have been millions of people already vaccinated elsewhere in the world. So, there's very little to be concerned about here in NZ.

        So. The above being true, why would our government not expect the pharmaceutical company to be liable for any injury caused by their product?

        • Andre 10.1.2.1

          Harm from a vaccine is currently one of the things ACC covers, so if the government did indemnify a vaccine manufacturer it would appear to make absolutely zero difference to any individuals within New Zealand. Any liability issue would appear to be between the government or ACC or Pharmac or Medsafe, and the manufacturer.

          If it did happen, it wouldn't be the first time. From The Chairman's link:

          The Ministry did not rule out offering indemnity to a vaccine supplier, as has happened previously.

          Documents obtained under the Official Information Act show the previous Labour government accepted liability when it sourced a bird flu vaccine.

          In May 2007, the Ministry of Health obtained 100,000 vaccines from Baxter Healthcare, at a cost of up to $3.4 million.

          But as part of the purchase, the government had to provide indemnity to Baxter.

          • Incognito 10.1.2.1.1

            Exactly! The indemnity issue is not a health & safety one but a commercial/business decision so that companies feel free to register their product for the NZ market as it lowers their exposure to financial risk/liability in case something goes awry in a previously untested population (think Māori and Pacific Islanders who may have confounding risk factors).

    • joe90 10.2

      Dude, you've omitted one of the leading alt-covid voices.

      ///

  11. Stephen D 11

    With the policy the Nats are putting out it is obvious they have realised they have no way of winning the treasury benches this election or next.

    The transport policy was just ridiculous. probably undoable given the geology of the Brynderwyns and Kaimais. And uncosted. So not a real policy at all. If they go into 2023 with it, general laughter all around.

    The raiding Kiwisaver is just as silly, nonsense really. 70-80% of small busineses fail in the first few years. So no business and a big dent in your retirement savings.

    As for the charging of all Kiwis returning. Typical punitive stuff. And given our Bill of rights, probably unenforceable.

    Judith has given up. And it shows.

  12. Ad 13

    Zimbabwe just confirmed a $3.5b deal to compensate white farmers.

    https://edition.cnn.com/2020/07/29/africa/zimbabwe-compensation-white-farmers/index.html

    Now that would be a really interesting proposal to run in Taranaki – especially to get the European farmers off those Waitara blocks.

  13. Adrian 14

    Mugabe was an huge fan of cricket, apparently the white administration played cricket radio commentaries from all around the world into his cell 24 hours a day for years. Hated the game beforehand but realised he had to understand it and love it to stop it from having the effect they wanted.

  14. Dennis Frank 15

    News from last night: https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/122286406/mps-reach-across-the-house-to-ban-female-genital-mutilation

    It’s taken 12 years, and required a change to Parliament’s archaic rules, but a group of female MPs have come together to ban female genital mutilation, in all forms. A cross-party group threw aside party allegiances and joined forces to bring New Zealand’s laws around FGM in line with international guidelines. They created a joint Member’s Bill – a way for MPs to have new laws debated outside the Government programme.

    Wall said FGM was “part of our legacy of sexual violence, sexual abuse, sexual exploitation”. “I think this is what Parliament's all about. It's about bringing positive change, and community-driven change in a way that de-politicised it. “For us, it was about being clear that any form of violence against women, we have to do everything we can to eliminate it and to stand up and say, these practices are archaic, and they will not be tolerated in New Zealand.”

    National’s Anne Tolley took the idea first to Mallard, and then Parliament’s powerful business committee, which makes decisions on proceedings in the House. She’s now hoping for a permanent change to Standing Orders, the rules that govern Parliament.

    “We went to the Speaker and asked if could we break with history basically, and have the bill in the name of four members to represent cross party. We are proposing that we change the Standing Orders to allow this to happen more often. So that if we want to do this, again, people don't have to go through that process of convincing the Speaker and taking it to the business committee and getting their approval. That it would just be a matter of course. There are cross party groups in a number of areas, working on mental health, on suicide, so [there are] a number of things that they would be able to put forward.”

    Wall and Tolley are members of the Inter-Parliamentary Union, a global organisation of national parliaments. Tolley said she would be taking the idea to the forum.

    Good to see this. The use of lateral thinking by parliamentarians is particularly welcome! Cross-party consensus is rare and I hope they succeed with their initiative to make it easier to get – and also in the international arena. Well done, all involved! 👍

  15. Adrian 16

    Heron must be the most naive bugger in the universe. He didn't check Boags computer because he took her word, she said the bloody stuff came off her computer FFS.

    Walker did it to show he wasn't racist, oh FFS he has form so he is.

    • RedBaronCV 16.1

      And where is the howl from the media about why we are still paying Walker. I'm afraid it really grates on this taxpayer that we are tossing him apparently some $60000 to hang around until the election doing who knows what if anything for the electorate. Any other job -he'd have been down the road long time ago.

      • Cinny 16.1.1

        And an MP throwing a wobbly and leaking info because someone called him a racist, is completely childish.

        Also I'm annoyed at the muller puff piece in yesterday's herald. Apparently his mental health difficulties are a result of hamish walkers actions. He won't be returning to Parliament this year but is another nat that is happy to take the pay packet

        • mike appleboy 16.1.1.1

          I don't believe for a moment that the leak was because he was upset over being called racist. This was pure dirty politics aimed at discrediting the government. The 'gosh I was so upset at being called racist' is pure smoke screen and a more 'palatable' story than the truth.

          I laughed out loud at the story saying that he just coincidentally called Boag and she just happened to have something on hand to help…bollocks. Why is this story not featured in NZ Herald or Stuff today?

    • I Feel Love 16.2

      It's how the elite treat each other, it's us below the stairs that are dragged out in handcuffs and our houses turned upside down.

    • And likewise, Heron took Woodhouse at his word. The mystery homeless man must find comfort in this, at least. They must have gone to school together.

    • PaddyOT 16.4

      WELL, BUGGAR ME !

      Is someone short a weetbix from their box ?

      Hamish Walker is still cited giving a misleading excuse to Heron QC and then Heron QC has not appeared to investigate this false justification for its flaws in the reports written findings. Heron's following analysis in the report seems to unwittingly validate Walker instead.

      Walker was able to still state along the lines that being distressed about being called a racist because of his actions, ie. from "firing off a press statement warning up to 11,000 people were headed for Southland from India, Pakistan, Korea",
      Walker to Heron then finger points deflecting to Boag and a ghost constituent of his.

      ( NB. The email is only about " confirmed COVID 19 cases as of 9.00am 2 July 2020. ( not the 11,000 Walker needed to validate his claim) Further, the email footer has the Privacy Act prohibitions and the title in caps MEDICAL IN CONFIDENCE )

      Again to the investigator, (Heron), Walker MP, is able to still justify his illicit actions using his anger as a motive- similar to his earlier expressions to the media. " Calling me a racist is Labour's default tactic when they are unable to defend their blatant failures. It's not about race," ;
      "It's about the countries these Kiwis are coming from.( re NIMBY xenophobia of Koreans, Pakastanis and Indians).

      However, the smack in the face flaw is that even now we are to believe that Walker just wanted evidence to prove countries of origins. Walker stated that he was following up a constituent's concern he only " intended to identify the countries the returning New Zealanders were coming from."

      The fact is millions of people could already have told Boag and Walker WHERE the confirmed and probable cases came from WITHOUT breaching the law and compromising individual's privacy and safety !!!! For months, then and still anyone can follow origins on a globally accessible public database.

      https://www.health.govt.nz/our-work/diseases-and-conditions/covid-19-novel-coronavirus/covid-19-current-situation/covid-19-current-cases/covid-19-current-cases-details

      Sorry Mr.Walker but BS# to you. Please also note In your time frame up to 2 July people came from … everywhere. Southland should be so lucky.

  16. JohnSelway 17

    Loved this analysis by Paul Krugman

    "I've long been struck by the intensity of right-wing anger against relatively trivial regulations, like bans on phosphates in detergent and efficiency standards for lightbulbs," Krugman writes. "It's the principle of the thing: many on the right are enraged at any suggestion that their actions should take other people's welfare into account." According to Krugman, far-right Republicans equate irresponsibility with "freedom." "This rage is sometimes portrayed as love of freedom," Krugman observes. "But people who insist on the right to pollute are notably unbothered by, say, federal agents teargassing peaceful protesters. What they call 'freedom' is actually absence of responsibility."

  17. observer 18

    Everybody knows that my predictions are never wrong*, so here they are:

    TV1/Colmar Brunton poll at 6 pm –

    Lab 52 Nat 35 Greens 4 NZF 2 ACT 4 Others 3

    (*except the rogue ones, they didn't count)

    • ScottGN 18.1

      I reckon you’ll be about right apart from the Greens will probably be just over the threshold between 5 and 6%.

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