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Post-US Election Discussion Post

Written By: - Date published: 5:55 am, November 10th, 2016 - 269 comments
Categories: us politics, you couldn't make this shit up - Tags: , ,

In order to free up Open Mike and Daily Review for other conversations we are asking that all discussion, posting of links etc on the US election go in this daily dedicated thread rather than OM or DR.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

There will continue to be author-written posts on the US election as well, check them out, usual rules apply there too.

269 comments on “Post-US Election Discussion Post ”

  1. Tony Veitch (not the partner-bashing 3rd rate broadcaster 1

    Three observations on the election:

    – boy, did the DNC ever get it wrong! Bernie would have made a much more credible candidate.

    – this was as much a ‘brexit’ as brexit! The vote was anti-establishment and not so much for Trump as against the atypical establishment candidate. There’s lessons to be learned here for New Zealand next year.

    – if I were the Clintons, I’d be looking for a holiday home in a country without an extradition treaty with the US. Heh heh, they might even become neighbours of Snowden in Moscow, or share a room in the Ecuadorian embassy with Assange/

    • Lanthanide 1.1

      Fox news observed that each party chose the only candidate that the other candidate was able to beat.

    • inspider 1.2

      Biggest shock of the night, foreign reporter in front of Whitehouse channeling Martyn Bradbury “the polls were wrong because they only rang landlines”. It is just as wrong there as it was for here.

      • Invisible Axe 1.2.1

        So why are the polls wrong there but right here? So are National not as popular as the polls say?

        The thing that struck me last night was all the ‘experts’ completely baffled, “No one listened to Obama, Bruce Springsteen, Michael Moore or any other rich smug bastard”…Their missing millions voted & look what happened.

        • Ray

          “Their missing millions voted”
          45% didn’t vote!

          • Ovid

            2008 and to a lesser extent 2012 were where the missing millions turned out. The black vote dropped significantly this year.

            • Colonial Viper

              Prelim numbers say that Trump held the Latino vote at around the same levels as Romney 2012. Trump’s black vote went up from Romney’s pathetic 6% to a pathetic 8%, even as African American turnout fell.

            • Nick

              Clinton put a lot of the black vote in prison

              • Colonial Viper

                The era of the “superpredators”

                Also for many former inmates, they are permanently disqualified from voting.

          • save nz

            45% didn’t vote!

            Who can blame them! Look at the candidates.

            Then look at the policies of the Democrats.

            People are not happy with the way the world is going. War, inequality and social and environmental destruction. The democrat politicians are more concerned with their elite friends around the world and in the US and how to make more profit, than their own people. Trump understood that.

            So of the 55% of voters – looks like 30% wanted Trump and Republican policy. That won the election. Less wanted Clinton and Democrat policies.

            The secret is, you have to listen to the people and try to get it right to win.

            Obama won because he inspired people because he looked like change. He got some things right, but on TPPA and foreign policy he fucked up. Hillary looked like she was a lot worse than Obama and would have fucked up foreign policy even more by starting a war with China and Russia. No one wanted that, the US can’t even create peace in Afghanistan or Iraq (the opposite) and pushing in other countries to pitch in to kill civilians and create unrest.

        • dukeofurl

          I understand some polls did sample quite a lot of cell phones

          Pew Research Center will call 75% cellphones for surveys in 2016

          Does it make much difference?
          The researchers reported little difference between the results from the landline-only sample and the larger group of both landline and cell phone users: Pew

          • Wayne

            If Bernie had been the candidate, the loss would have been bigger. Middle America would have flocked to Donald even more decisively. Whatever you might say about Americans they are not about to elect a socialist.

            In any event all a bit irrelevant now.

            So what will Trump do?

            He will build his wall, but in truth that has little international impact (except for Mexicans).

            In his speech last night he doubled down on infrastructure. But he is also going to cut taxes. I reckon it will be debt funded at almost 0% interest rate. So federal debt will go from $16 trillion to around $20 to 25 trillion. After all we know Donald Trump is not put off by a little bit of debt.

            He won’t be able to do much about Iran, the deal is a multi-state deal that is locked in. He will ban US banks dealing with Iran, but that opens an opportunity for China.

            He will bomb ISIS, nothing changes there.

            He will spend more on defence. Lockheed Martin and Boeing shares will do well since it will mostly be combat planes and ships – paid for by debt. Maybe the superfund should have not been so quick to seel, at least of the Boeing shares, given that much of its revenue is passenger jets which in any event Air NZ has bought.

            Obama care is over but it will be replaced with something. In any event a domestic issue with no international impact.

            The big imponderable; China.

            TPP is dead, but China is sponsoring the RCEP, of which NZ and Aus are negotiating parties (the US is not). RCEP will happen. China is also building the “One belt, One Road” project. Essentially a massive infrastructure project across Asia to Africa and Europe (rail, highways, ports, trading centres). Much bigger than you can imagine. It secures Chin’s supplies and markets. The shipping part extends to Aus and NZ. It does not include the Americas, but you can bet your bottom dollar that Mexico will be real keen to join in.

            The US cannot easily push China around, China will push back. China have got Durente on board. They will get others such as Burma, Thailand, and Indonesia.

            Strategically the US cannot abandon the Asia Pacific. It is after all literally part of it.

            So perhaps more tension in the region, until people (Trump) realize that a deal has to be struck. He says he is a deal maker. This will be his big test of those very skills.

            • One Anonymous Bloke

              The value of your pronouncements re Sanders can be judged by the accuracy of your predictions re Trump.

              What will he do?

              He’ll double-down. A special prosecutor will be appointed, Clinton will be subjected to a show trial. Minority groups – especially Muslims – will be officially persecuted and eventually detained and murdered.

              You think it was all rhetoric, eh. I’d love you to be right. You’re wrong.

              • Wayne

                Will he double down?

                Why would he appoint a special prosecutor? It would be an enormous and unnecessary distraction.

                He has won, and in his mind that is what counts.

                The US is not Nazi Germany. Minorities are not going to be detained and murdered.

                Though I guess if you are an undocumented immigrant and commit a crime, you will be jailed and promptly deported – a bit like Australia with criminal NZ’ers.

                I am not saying it was all rhetoric.

                He will build his wall, he will cut taxes, he will build infrastructure and provide jobs. But he will borrow to do it.

                • Colonial Viper

                  Why would he appoint a special prosecutor? It would be an enormous and unnecessary distraction.

                  exactly. A simple administrative reprimand saying that she can never hold a security clearance again would be sufficient to make the point.

                  • dukeofurl

                    I think her public roles are over.

                    But it could be wise for Obama to make a pardon ( like Nixon got) to keep Guiliani out of the Clintons hair.

                • One Anonymous Bloke

                  That all sounds lovely. Peace in our time eh Wayne.

                • Jenny

                  “The US is not Nazi Germany. Minorities are not going to be detained and murdered.”

                  Exept for all “Undesirable Aliens” with out papers and their children. At last count 1.1 million people.

                  Donald Trump has promised that mass deportations of these “Illegals” will begin on day one of his presidency. And be completed within two years.

                  “on day one, I’m going to begin swiftly removing criminal illegal immigrants from this country.
                  “We’re going to send them back to where they came from,”
                  Donald Trump at Sen. Joni Ernst’s annual “Roast and Ride” event in Des Moines, 27 Aug 2016.

                  There are probably not enough, (secure), busses, planes, passenger carriages in the world, to forcibly transport that amount of people in that amount of time.

                  To forcibly transport that amount of people in that amount of time would mean the use of the cattle rail cars routinely used in the transport of millions of cattle from the hinterlands into the major US cities.
                  Cattle cars are cheap and readily available. Built to secure 300 pound steers and locked from the outside they are a proven cheap method for forcibly transporting millions of people at short notice.

                  Even under the best circumstances and even with the best of intentions many, especially the young, would die either in transport or in detention.

            • Adrian

              What the hell are you talking about? when Bernie was finally getting just a little bit of media coverage (late May, early April), as opposed to the blanket coverage that Trump was getting, Bernie was constantly running at over 10% against Trump, and running these sort of numbers while being activity undermined by the DNC. and all the while proudly calling himself an Democratic Socialist.

            • The Chairman

              “If Bernie had been the candidate, the loss would have been bigger”

              I disagree.

              You’re totally overlooking what has just taken place. US voters just sent a big fuck you to the establishment.

              Clinton and Trump were both widely disliked. However, Trump was deemed anti-establishment, whereas Clinton was largely seen as the establishment candidate.

              But if Sanders was the contender, he would have most likely won. He was also deemed anti-establishment, but is disliked far less than Trump and Clinton.

              • dukeofurl

                Sanders won?

                have you been awake!
                According to the latest results, Stein got 1,207,141 votes, which is 1 percent of the popular vote.

                She was running on a platform very much like Sanders ( she even wanted him to join her on the ticket)

                • DoublePlusGood

                  If Sanders was the Democrat candidate, that is very different from running as a third party candidate for a very much smaller party with negligible resources compared to the Democrats.
                  Plus, Sanders was packing out stadiums.

                  • dukeofurl

                    Would be , could be, should be.

                    Are you saying the 12mill that voted for him in Democratic primary didnt care for exactly the same policies when they were proposed by a woman?

          • Colonial Viper

            Landlines vs cellphones is a red herring for the failure of the polls, and for Nate Silver getting it wrong on Trump yet again.

            For starters, the conversation has to be around how the Clinton campaign, liberal left activists, and the MSM made it toxic and impossible for ordinary people to acknowledge that they actually supported Trump without being attacked as bigoted misogynists.

            • Rocco Siffredi

              “For starters, the conversation has to be around how the Clinton campaign, liberal left activists, and the MSM made it toxic and impossible for ordinary people to acknowledge that they actually supported Trump without being attacked as bigoted misogynists.”

              Exactly. It didn’t require a genius to work out expressions of support for Trump would result in a ton of abuse from a small, vocal segment.

              People simply lied to the pollsters in large numbers.

              • dukeofurl

                Polls are confidential !
                What you are saying doenst go along with how any telephone polls work.

                You make it sound the pollster go around knocking on doors and then leave a redmark on the door for Trump supporters.

            • Jay

              Exactly. And it’s no different in nz in my opinion

              • save nz

                Totally agree. I was at a few parties with some Democrat Hillary supporters prior to the election in NZ and boy were they extremely vocal in their support. You couldn’t get a word in edgeways about how people are dissatisfied with what is going on in the world. All the Clinton supporters could do was get agitated and blame racism and sexism and ignorance for why people did not like Hillary and may not vote or support Trump.

                So lesson to be learnt is don’t blame the voters if not enough people want to vote for you. To win you have to change to something people want to vote for and listen, not shut down what voters want.

            • Puckish Rogue

              Yes I wondered about this myself, when you look at the media in the USA (Fox excepted) it was all about Trump being either evil or a joke, how anyone voting for Trump is an idiot, a racist, an inbred hill billy

              You had celebrities coming out the ying yang imploring people not just to vote but basically vote Clinton however I think this might have backfired as, like me, a lot of people our probably sick of having highly paid entertainers telling us how to vote

              The other thing I’ve noticed is, like NZ since Helen Clark, is the rise of the “intellectual” Now we were lucky with Helen Clark but it seems since then that if a politician doesn’t have a certain level of education then they’re disparaged and I’d imagine its even worse in the USA

              The line being pushed was the Clinton was the most qualified person ever for being president which suggests that every previous president somehow wasn’t as qualified

              Hopefully this will be a wake up call to both the democratic and republican parties…but I doubt it

              • Richard Rawshark

                Brownlee.. woodwork teacher, kind of shoots holes through your whole, they vote national because they are educamated shtories

            • weizguy

              So what you’re saying is that we shouldn’t call people misogynists (even though they are) because they’ll vote for the guy that they’ve already decided to vote for?

              By not calling it out, you normalise racism. There should be consequences for bigotry.

              • Puckish Rogue

                Hi weizguy not sure if you’re replying to me, if you aren’t then please disregard

                “So what you’re saying is that we shouldn’t call people misogynists (even though they are) because they’ll vote for the guy that they’ve already decided to vote for?”

                No. I’m not saying that at all. I’m saying that the people who thought of voting for Trump didn’t like being called idiots (or worse) and so, when polled, lied to the pollsters and that gave Clinton inflated numbers

                “By not calling it out, you normalise racism. There should be consequences for bigotry.”

                There should be yes.

              • Colonial Viper

                By not calling it out, you normalise racism. There should be consequences for bigotry.

                The actual bigotry is coming from people like you, ironically.

                By the way 53% of white women voted for Trump. Trump also did (marginally) better with blacks and latinos than Romney did. They figured out that Trump was someone they could tolerate, maybe you could too.

                • weizguy

                  “The actual bigotry is coming from people like you, ironically.”

                  You’re having a laugh. Calling a bigot a bigot is not bigotry. This is not complicated. Trump was endorsed by the KKK, by the Alt-Right. He, and many of his supporters, demonstrated his bigotry throughout the campaign.

                  Not everyone who voted for him is a bigot, but there are plenty, and they are revelling in the mainstreaming of their bigotry.

                  “They figured out that Trump was someone they could tolerate, maybe you could too.”

                  We’ll see if they can tolerate being stripped of access to healthcare (particularly those women who might need an abortion, or access to healthcare through planned parenthood).

                • dukeofurl

                  Careful what exit polls you are listening too ?

                  “The polling guru Nate Silver, editor of FiveThirtyEight, said exit polls had done an “awfully bad job” on Tuesday night, initially predicting a Clinton landslide.

            • Lanthanide

              Nate Silver didn’t “get it wrong on Trump yet again”.

              All of the other polling aggregators had Clinton winning at 95%+.

              538 had her at 70%, and they repeatedly warned over the last several weeks that Clinton winning the popular vote and losing the EC was a very real possibility – and hence why they weren’t giving her a 90%+ chance to win (they gave Obama 91% chance in 2012).

              There wasn’t a single poll in Wisconsin that put Trump ahead. The average had her at +6% there and Trump has won by approx 1%. Why are you blaming Nate for that?

              And yes, cellphones vs landlines as being “the reason” the polls were off doesn’t apply in the US. They have a much more sophisticated polling landscape than either the UK or New Zealand and most of their polling companies that do phone poling, use both landlines and cellphones (there are even some that do cellphone only).

              • Richard Rawshark

                You don’t get it either, the only people who’d talk and take their time up with a pollster are?

                the rest of us just laugh and hang up.

        • Well Fed Weta

          One view expressed last night is that the polls were wrong because many Trump voters didn’t declare their voting preference to the pollsters.

          • Lanthanide

            There’s a lot of potential reasons.

            It may also be that the pollsters didn’t contact the right people in the first place, or that their likely-voter screen weeded too many of them out, or that once they had the data, the assumptions they applied to it were incorrect, creating the wrong results (NYT did a test where they gave identical polling data to 4 different companies, and got results of +4 clinton, +3, +1 and +1 trump – from identical raw data).

            • dukeofurl

              Some experts are saying its not a 3%+ margin of error , its more like 7%+

              What probably used to happen was they would adjust figures as the election came closer- but now far fewer polls taken which means the averages mean nothing. But this time they doubled down with an extra prediction of victory, which had stupid numbers at times of 80%

              Pollsters are just in the business of selling dreams, its not really that accurate – if it ever was.

        • Nick

          Michael Moore predicted Trump win

    • AmaKiwi 1.3

      “There are lessons to be learned here for New Zealand next year.”

      Winston understands, as he demonstrated in Northland.

      The provinces have been ignored in favor of a neoliberal system that puts obscene untaxed profits into the pockets of the Auckland real estate scammers and foreign criminals while producing nothing of value for the rest of us.

      • Invisible Axe 1.3.1

        Just finished reading the bio of the Red Hot Chilli Peppers singer, he has a few paragraphs about being ripped off by some Auckland real estate agents, NZ has a bad rep.

      • Bob 1.3.2

        Totally agree!!!

    • Redbaiter 1.4

      Have the left learnt anything from the US elections?

      Mark Latham needs to take over the Australian Labor Party.

      If Andrew Little can’t do it, Labour NZ needs someone like Latham to take over here.


      Identity politics and global warming BS is just going to continue to cripple the left.

  2. Lanthanide 2

    I’ve been wondering for a few months now, what the name Trump would come to mean (as in Hitler, Casanova, Einstein etc).

    I guess now we’ll see.

    • yep – will be interesting to see alright – trump now is totally in the spotlight and his every move will be watched carefully by those who wish him well and not.

    • mikesh 2.2

      Given its use in card games, the expression “to be trumped” will no doubt become a perfect metaphor in certain political situations.

    • aerobubble 2.3

      Feminists on NR this morning were telling, raging at Trumps womanizing…


      ..how did NR find a bunch of stupid women so quickly.

      Trump won because suburb women and rural men.

      Here’s thing. Trump does not want to control women’s wombs. For decades Republicians have wanted to. Its astonishes me that Trump goes left, and the left cant see it, just as they could not see Sanders resonating…

      Clinton lost because as a femistist she thought she could change men, that a bad economy was great if women keep men feminized.

      Now, no I see Trump as a fool, a very able politicially astute, fool. As with all declines, the elites try the same old things that keep failing.

      Trump is about to rush right in a double down on all the bad economics that pander to our lazy elites, without the huge growth from the militrary industrial complex, or tackling the obvious over remuniration in Americian boardrooms.

      Yeah, its four more years of the same mistakes, now how do i know this, because Trump cant fire Congress. Congress who are paid up boilerroom boys of big corp.
      There are no Trump Republicians, as Trump is not a Republician.

      And just if, just if, he does succeed in causing more climate change and grow the US economy in time for re-election, lol, he’ll have succeeded to do what feminists have failed to do, but wither the far religious anti choice lobby

      • weka 2.3.1

        Trump is prolife, has said that women who have abortions should be punished, and that he will roll back Roe vs Wade. How is that him not wanting to control women’s wombs?

        • Richard Rawshark

          Thanks Weka, you reminded me of the abomination of that, and they still voted him, Desperate to give man the middle finger, and as one said you could have put a elephant up against her.

          Us , working poor, we have had enough.. spin. That abomination confirms it.

          I get now how Hitler rose to power, one frustrated and powerless population given hope of making Germany great again, sound familiar?

          The similarities between both are astounding. Germany gave the middle finger to the world..they had had enough of bankers and whatever they focused there frustration on, are Trumps Jews going to be Muslims? probably. Will it get as bad as hitlers death camps, I doubt it, that extreme I don’t think americans could tolerate, but long jail sentences and mass prisoning, most likely.

          • weka

            There’s a whole thing here about why women who voted Clinton did so because she is a woman. On The Standard, the debate around that has been largely centred around anti-identity men are saying it’s stupid to vote for Clinton because she is a woman (although I’ve seen it expressed far more patronisingly and oppressively than that too). That, and the rape culture lines, have meant that this has been a very hostile place to talk about women’s politics.

            People who want to destroy identity politics are part of the ongoing misogynistic culture that means that the largest left wing blog in NZ doesn’t have any women writing consistently from a feminist perspective. Were there any posts in the last 6 months by women about the election that looked at women’s issues? Consider how extraordinary that is when one of the most powerful nations on the planet for the first time has a woman running for president.

            When we (the women) raise this issue (about The Standard), we get told all sorts of things which boil down to ‘shut up and fit in’ (apologies to the men here who are supportive, but we need active support not just passive support).

            Now, imagine what that is like when you are in a space that doesn’t accept that women have rights on their own terms. And now not only is the person in charge a misogynist, but many places in the US have now just been endorsed to tell women what to do. If Roe vs Wade goes, it will not only affect abortion access, it will roll back many of the gains that women have made. Not little middle class obsessions (/sarc), but serious as fuck shit like whether we get to have our own politics and human rights. And that will happen in the culture even where it doesn’t happen legislatively.

            We don’t have to look at Hitler to think about how bad things might get. I don’t know if it will get that bad. It’s possible, but I think it’s also possible that the more moderate aspects of the right in the US will restrict the evil. The point I am trying to get to here is that it’s not a choice between where we are now and genocide. There are many, many degrees of horror in between, and the whole suppression of identity from left wing men thing is a huge contributing factor to that. Basically anti-identity men are aligning themselves with racism, misogyny, and pretty much every other oppression that real people are fighting all the time.

            The thing that really, seriously, fucks me off is that we could have spent the lest 6 months talking about what the working poor, and I would add, the underclasses need in terms of political movements (plural) and what we can do. Instead we have had a bigotry-driven debate that has basically just said, our turn now, you lot can fuck off and die. *that* is Trump culture.

            (sorry, needed to get that out).

            • Richard Rawshark

              Hey it’s ok Weka, I didn’t know you were a lady, I wrote along reply but deleted it, not today mate, i’ll chat another day, I can see your in enough pain..

              • weka

                Look forward to it RR.

                (already saw the comment in trash, just know that the anger is not at men, it’s at the patriarchy and people who support it. Plus, my politics include the working poor and any other group that supposedly voted Trump or didn’t and who are disenfanchised. We all need to be at the table. That task at hand, IMO, is how to talk across the lines and what to do about the people that want to keep the lines).

            • Manuka AOR

              It would make a good Post, Weka, somewhere down the line… A necessary one. In fact your comment as-is would do it (as a Post/ Discussion topic)

  3. Lanthanide 3

    Hey, maybe Gareth Morgan can learn a thing or two from this…

    • aerobubble 3.1

      Morgan already knows that moving money around, is unproductive and hugely incentivized by our current legistlative regime, and growth likewise in eating several times Earth resources, is very very profitable. If only the wealthy could live forever they might start caring when they get rich, when they look around from their ivory towers at the desecration.

  4. Andre 4

    For the second time in recent history the Electoral College system fucks over the popular vote and delivers the presidency to a spectacularly crap candidate.

    • Garibaldi 4.1

      Get over it Andre. You have been banging on about how great Hillary is for weeks .She is crap and the world will be better without both the bloody Clintons.

      [I think it’s time we stopped with the misrepresenting other people’s views. There has been a lot of saying that someone who votes Clinton supports or loves her when it’s blatantly not true, and then the subsequent more subtle but important debate gets lost in the aggro that follows. It’s a false, lazy and disingenuous argument and it’s been a consistent problem here for months. By all means say what you think about Clinton, but I’m going to start calling people up when they push the meme that choosing Clinton = loving Clinton when that is the opposite of what someone says (this may apply to Trump too). I’ll consider it a derailment and probably trolling/flaming – weka].

      • mike 4.1.1

        Your ignorant prejudices are showing Garabaldi, if had been the other way round you’d be whinging about how the whole thing was rigged.

        • Garibaldi

          Thank you Mike. As it happens Clinton did rig things when she shafted Sanders and now she’s paid the price.
          My “ignorant prejudices” are more a statement about your own. Have a nice day.

          • dukeofurl

            The voters chose Clinton over Sanders, 4 million of them.

            The caucuses were much more favourable to Sanders, but those were mostly unrepresentative activists, not everyday voters.

            Time to get over that Sanders just lost, and hes never coming back

      • Andre 4.1.2

        Y’know, I’m actually a member of the class that’s likely to have its privilege further reinforced by the Trump presidency. I’m white, male, likely well past the mid-point of my life, wealthy enough that I’d pay more tax under Clinton and less under Trump.

        It’s actually not likely to affect me much that Trump will bend the emissions curve up and Clinton would bend it down. It won’t affect me that Trump will likely seek to impose all kinds of further hassles on women, minorities, the poor, out-of-favour religious people. In my area of expertise, my job prospects are likely to improve from Trump’s stated intention to boost military spending.

        My choice of Clinton as the best choice on offer comes from a sense of empathy for those a Trump presidency will genuinely hurt, in the US and globally. Yes, I would have much preferred Sanders or O’Malley, or a long list of others that didn’t put their hands up.

        But there always comes a time when you have to swallow hard, seriously look at the realistic paths ahead, and choose the best even though it’s far short of what you want. It really looks to me like a minority of my fellow Americans have let their desire to scream “FUCK YOU” has combined with blind tribal loyalty and a fucked-up electoral system to bring us to this really scary point.

      • aerobubble 4.1.3

        Hilliary could only have sat around for four years unless she won a landslide and took Congress, since she failed to get out ahead of the Sanders momentum, she would have, like many US voters could see, of achieving little.

        Trump does have the same problem, it’ll all depend on pork and how flexble Republicians are. History shows they are very adept at gridlock.

        • dukeofurl

          You forget many things she would have done.
          Primarily Obamacare is finished now without the Presidency to keep it going, and as CINC she would control the military- strangely some seem to think she did this job for the 8 years of Obama, but the responsibility has to rest with him. lets be clear Clinton was nothing like the power behind the throne that Cheney was during Bush presidency.

    • Colonial Viper 4.2

      Trump ran a smarter, tighter game on far less money than the Clinton campaign, against the daily villification of the corporate MSM.

      If the Democrats don’t learn from their defeat, and especially from the fact they now do not hold any single branch of the US Govt, they deserve what they get.

      • Lanthanide 4.2.1

        Except Kelly Ann Conway made a statement around 8pm, saying it was unfortunate that the RNC didn’t really work with their campaign as much as they would have liked.

        It’s the sort of “softening” statement you make when you’re expecting to lose – just like Nigel Farage said he’d thought that Remain had squeeked out ahead of Leave.

        So I don’t think Trump’s team really thought he would win, either.

    • Kevin 4.3

      Winning the popular vote by around 200,00 out of approximately 119 million is hardly a ringing endorsement Andre.

      • Andre 4.3.1

        But somehow, losing the popular vote by 200,000 is being portrayed as a stunning endorsement of Trump. Because of a fucked-up electoral system.

  5. Paul 5

    I wonder if New Zealand voters will now follow the example of UK citizens and US citizens, with Trump and refuse to tell the poll organisations who they are going to vote for.

    Why Trump won.


    • Puckish Rogue 5.1

      That might explain why the Greens don’t do as well as their polling suggests on election day and why NZFirst does better

  6. Cinny 6

    Hills has finally given her concession speech. I thought it was very rude of her not to address her supporters last night, they fought hard for her.

    Time to depart politics quietly Hills.

    As for Agent Orange, time will tell how that plays out.


    • miravox 6.1

      ” I thought it was very rude of her not to address her supporters last night”

      I don’t know, understandable that she may have needed a bit of time to reflect and compose herself.

      Good speech.

      • Cinny 6.1.1

        Yes she would have needed a bit of time, but all those supporters just streaming out of venues, many in tears, she should have been a good ‘mum’ and put her feelings a side and offered them some support and direction on the night. Aunty was brave enough to do that back in 2008

        Yes good speech

      • Rocco Siffredi 6.1.2

        “I don’t know, understandable that she may have needed a bit of time to reflect and compose herself.”

        Not very presidential eh?

        • save nz

          Clinton’s advisers needed time to write her a new speech!

        • miravox

          Pretty sure that presidents have plenty of time before public appearances to compose themselves.

          I did read that she had 2 speeches prepared.

    • red-blooded 6.2

      Clinton was gracious and composed. Her speech lived up to the values she championed throughout the campaign. It’s hard to imagine Trump managing such dignity and self control. He would have been railing and making wild accusations.

      The US system is shit. Any two party government locks people together who belong in different parties. It can deliver a result like this, with the loser of the popular vote winning the election. The US need to look hard at their system (but don’t hold your breath for a challenge to the almighty constitution).

      • Cinny 6.2.1

        Totally agree with you about the shite USA system, wonder if there is any movement for change in that?

        I’m so thrilled Hillary lost, so am celebrating that aspect.

        It will take me a long time to deal with the fact that psycho Agent Orange is president, because it’s just a game of conquests for him, reality will smack me in the face sooner or later.

      • Rocco Siffredi 6.2.2

        “The US system is shit. Any two party government locks people together who belong in different parties. It can deliver a result like this, with the loser of the popular vote winning the election. The US need to look hard at their system (but don’t hold your breath for a challenge to the almighty constitution).”

        The system is working exactly as intended. It is, by design, there to ensure a balance between parties and that is what it has done.

      • aerobubble 6.2.3

        The ivory tower Republicians left the floor of the Republician party empty, and a dottery old man wanders in pulls down his pant and plants one of the smellist shits ever in the middle of the room.

      • Leftie 6.2.4

        +100 Red-blooded.

    • Leftie 6.3

      Prevent a riot?

    • Leftie 6.4

      “they fought hard for her” and she acknowledged that. Her words of appreciation to all of her supporters reflected genuine, heartfelt feelings.

  7. Manuka AOR 7

    I’m allergic to his voice. Skin crawls, stomach retches when I hear it. Worse than any hangover.

  8. Cinny 8

    Will Parliament have a motion with out notice today to congratulate Agent Orange on his win?

    Outgoing PM is going to be pissed, no TPPA for you, wonder how Groser is coping with that, ahaha ha ha. PS Agent Orange will see right through you Key, don’t matter if you both love golf, the new president will call a spade a spade.

    • left_forwRd 8.1

      No, he’ll call a spade, a wheelbarrow and half of the people will believe him and think he is the greatest who speaks it how it is!

    • left_forward 8.2

      No, he’ll call a spade, a wheelbarrow and half of the people will believe him and think he is the greatest who speaks it how it is!

    • AsleepWhileWalking 8.3

      Thank you, Trump!

    • AB 8.4

      Trump may attempt to renegotiate the TPPA to make it even more favourable to US corporations. Key and Groser will cravenly fall into line

      • aerobubble 8.4.1

        You mean Trump will double down on inefficiencies in the globalized economy that have done so well for working stiffs like him.

        oh, wait, its that Trump is 77? and is just trying to build his families reserves backup to pass on like his dad did him. Got one of those negative mortgages, wonder why our elites are out of touch.

    • Wayne 8.5

      Well he might be an outgoing PM, but that might also be in 2020.

  9. tc 9

    Well it’s going to be entertaining that’s for sure.

    Michael Moore sums it up well so let’s see how long Donald takes to make good on the campaign promise to go after Hilary, a concept the opposition should consider here over SCF payout, sheep gate, power generator flogging etc.

    • Garibaldi 9.1

      Yes we have a whole new paradigm now and it’s going to be interesting to say the least.
      Upheavels galore, but I still feel safer with Hillary out of the picture.

    • … a concept the opposition should consider here over SCF payout, sheep gate, power generator flogging etc.

      After the current government got in, the right-wing blogs were full of demands to prosecute Clark, Cullen et al for “corruption.” Be careful what you wish for.

      • Eyre 9.2.1

        I see this all the time on the standard, about the SCF payout. It was labour who gave them the government guarantee.

        • Invisible Axe

          I see this all the time from desperate spinners it was English who re-guaranteed SCF to th e government guarantee, after getting advice not to. Labour did it first, then National.

        • dv

          BUT it was the NATS that extended it AGAINST treasury advice.

          Ditto axe.

      • Richard Rawshark 9.2.2

        really for what?, you are so full of it.

    • aerobubble 9.3

      Trumps contract is short on fine print.

  10. Andre 10

    Stocks that are up: defense contractors, private prisons, big pharma, exchange traded funds investing in Russia…


    Auto manufacturers seem to be generally down

    • Colonial Viper 10.1

      And just like BREXIT all the Wall St types had been saying that a TRUMP win would mean disaster for the financial markets.

      Not true, again.

      • Lanthanide 10.1.1

        The UK pound is at it’s lowest level against the US$ since 1985 where it reached $1.05. It’s quite feasible if Brexit goes ahead (which I still doubt), that the pound will eventually breach even that level.

        Big banks and car makers are seriously talking about pulling out of the UK, since they’ll lose the access they need to Europe if the UK leaves the EU. Then there’s the matter of Scotland.

        Let’s just see how well the US economy is doing 12 months from now, eh?

        • Colonial Viper

          The UK pound is at it’s lowest level against the US$ since 1985 where it reached $1.05. It’s quite feasible if Brexit goes ahead (which I still doubt), that the pound will eventually breach even that level.

          If it happens, that would be awesome and great for UK farmers, producers and manufacturers.

          • Lanthanide

            Not for all the people who were employed by those banks and car manufacturers, you know, the high-paying jobs in the economy.

          • McFlock

            You remind me of Roger Douglas, waving your hands at a sudden and massive pivot in the economy like it’s a good thing rather than a boost to the suicide rate for the people who can’t keep up with the change.

        • aerobubble

          Shrinking Londons finacial industry, lower pound helps exporters, and the cream’ no jail time for Blair.

          The US however looks much worse, since the old ways arent going to be overhauled, Trump does not have a clue, he said as much, he’s going to rely on
          people to bring in, yes men from the entrenched lobby groups. There is no plan B for a man that makes money in gambling, building by lowering wages or churn out cheap degrees.

          Brexit is about Thatcher, if Thatcherism aint working, break it up and dont wory about the fallout. Trump is however old school scam, promise the earth deliver little. We can only hope a seventy year old whose only desire now is to leave a family fortune to his heir.

      • weizguy 10.1.2

        Did you happen to have a look at the financial markets yesterday? Or did RT tell you everything was fine?

  11. Mr Nobody 11

    While Trump may not be the President that we might think America needs, clearly Americans feel different.

    I look forward to Trump being able to “normalise” relations with the Russians and focussing on America instead of trying to solve the rest of the worlds problems.

    • dukeofurl 11.1

      Well see how that works out, its likely that his national security team will be the same old deplorables from the Bush years.
      Thats how they work the best, have an ingenue like Bush or Trump or Reagan in charge ( and to some extent even Obama) and work behind the scenes to make the facts fit the outcomes they want.

      • Colonial Viper 11.1.1

        Well see how that works out, its likely that his national security team will be the same old deplorables from the Bush years

        Not if Lt Gen Michael Flynn has a say they won’t.

        • dukeofurl

          Flynn is just another ingenue, he will be edged out by people like Breedlove who wanted to supply weapons to Ukraine as nato commander, so they could have their own version of Syria ( and millions of refugees flooding west !)

          What poosible role would Flynn have that makes any sense. ?

  12. TheExtremist 12

    Scary thing is the republicans control the White House, the senate and congress. Trump has unlimited power.

    • marty mars 12.1

      yep there will be minorities quivering today. Wonder how long before an emboldened trumpite starts sorting stuff out.

    • Cinny 12.2

      Terrifying that is

    • millsy 12.3

      Just like BHO had back in 2008. Only this this time, the GOP aren’t going to fold up and give everything up to their opponents, like Obama on healthcare.

    • save nz 12.4

      Sounds like the Natz here. Maybe Labour could learn a lesson about Cunliffe and what happens when you destable your own leader.

      With Clinton she would have won if she had reached out to Sanders in a real way as deputy, or what have you and got his voters on board. Instead the nasty fight prior to the election left many left voters angry.

  13. Tautoko Mangō Mata 14

    Glenn Greenwald hits the nail on the head.

    The indisputable fact is that prevailing institutions of authority in the West, for decades, have relentlessly and with complete indifference stomped on the economic welfare and social security of hundreds of millions of people. While elite circles gorged themselves on globalism, free trade, Wall Street casino-gambling, and endless wars (wars that enriched the perpetrators and sent the poorest and most marginalized to bear all their burdens), they completely ignored the victims of their gluttony, except when those victims piped up a bit too much — when they caused a ruckus — and were then scornfully condemned as troglodytes who were the deserved losers in the glorious, global game of meritocracy.


    • Garibaldi 14.1

      Good one. That Greenwald quote is spot on in my view.
      Is Labour intelligent enough to take heed and take measures to capitalise on Americas rejection of current policy( which is puppet Key’s policy of course)? I wait with baited breath but fear the caucus is moribund.

      • dukeofurl 14.1.1

        That may be true but its a small chance they get what they ask for. Its the Republican party thats running things remember- God, guns, abortion, military, no obamacare etc.

      • Richard Rawshark 14.1.2

        Me too, will they get it, or are they actually part of the problem just like national?

    • Olwyn 14.2

      Yanis Varoufakis thinks along similar, though not identical lines. He says, Donald Trump’s victory marks the end of an era when a self-confident Establishment preached the end of history, the end of passion and the supremacy of a technocracy working on behalf of the 1%. But the era it ushers in is not new. and Passion has returned to politics but not in a way that will help the 80% left behind since the 1970s…Passion is exploiting the anger of the 80% to re-arrange power at the top, while leaving the 80% moribund, betrayed and divided. And it is our job to stop this. It is our job to harness passion in the cause of humanism. https://yanisvaroufakis.eu/2016/11/09/trumps-triumph-diem25-on-how-progressives-must-react/

      In short, we should not expect too much from what is essentially a change of guard at the top. It is time for Bernie/Corbyn supporters and the like to organise and form stronger cross-border connections.

      • Bill 14.2.1

        I’m hopeful.

        There’s the potential for far more good to come out of Trump’s presidency (organised reaction to it) than could ever have come out of a Clinton presidency.

        Odds are that a Clinton presidency would just have seen the ‘same old, same old’ bumble along for yet another four years, eight years…

        • Olwyn

          I agree. The establishment-approved proxy left has been unseated by the (seemingly) establishment-rejected right, leaving a gap for a renewed, committed left to gain traction. Here’s hoping anyway.

    • Olwyn 14.3

      Yanis Varoufakis thinks along similar, though not identical lines. He says, Donald Trump’s victory marks the end of an era when a self-confident Establishment preached the end of history, the end of passion and the supremacy of a technocracy working on behalf of the 1%. But the era it ushers in is not new. and Passion has returned to politics but not in a way that will help the 80% left behind since the 1970s…Passion is exploiting the anger of the 80% to re-arrange power at the top, while leaving the 80% moribund, betrayed and divided. And it is our job to stop this. It is our job to harness passion in the cause of humanism. https://yanisvaroufakis.eu/2016/11/09/trumps-triumph-diem25-on-how-progressives-must-react/

      In short, we should not expect too much from what is essentially a change of guard at the top. It is time for Bernie/Corbyn supporters and the like to organise and form stronger cross-border connections.

      (my second go at posting this comment)

    • save nz 14.4

      +1 TMM

  14. Adrian 15

    Trump hates the TPPA for completly different reasons to us. All those things we hate about it Trump wants to make tougher and more favourable to America.
    He is not on our side.

  15. Well, it’s great news for fans of right-wing nationalist authoritarian demagogues. Now the USA has joined Russia and Turkey in having a loudmouth obnoxious blowhard to “protect” the ethnic majority of the country from having to live in the 21st Century. Very encouraging for Le Pen etc in Europe.

    Must be weird to be an American woman right now, though – not only did your country reject the idea of a female PotUS, it rejected her in favour of a guy with a trophy wife whose best-known comment on women is “Grab ’em by the pussy.” I guess, at least it’s good to know where you stand.

  16. well sounds like key concedes the TPPA is goneburger – nice.

  17. Paul Campbell 19

    Not the leader of my free world

  18. gsays 20

    interesting observation is that 53% of white women voted for trump.
    the co-chair of ‘women for trump’ alluded to a backlash from those who were made to feel ashamed for voting for trump. lots of women remained silent about their choice.

    part of the election result ‘shock’ seems to stem from convoluting the personal revusion for an individual, versus the contempt the average joe and jane blow have for the ‘establishment’.

    also cheers to weka and others for their mahi in having the seperate posts.
    most of the moderation has been spot on.

    • Colonial Viper 20.1

      Across all genders Trump got 42% of the female vote; Clinton got 54%.

      That’s a ~1% wider gap than Romney in 2012. It appears that women as a whole were not greatly swayed to go Democrat by the liberal left argument that Trump was a sexual predator and misogynist.

      • gsays 20.1.1

        even at 54% for clinton seems to be a failure of sorts.

        while i am aware of the dangers of decribing female voters as a block,
        the rhetoric, soundbites, articles, tv commentary and trump’s distsateful, candid, predatory utterances, all hinted at a far higher female vote for clinton.

        all of which underlines the contempt for the establishment and the lot of the average american is fairly dire.

        BIG lessons for labour here.
        not to be seen as ‘the establishment’ – dis-associate with the neo liberal reforms perhaps?

        • Bill

          all of which underlines the contempt for the establishment and the lot of the average american is fairly dire.

          BIG lessons for labour here. not to be seen as ‘the establishment’ – dis-associate with the neo liberal reforms perhaps?

          SNP rout of Labour. Nothing to see there.
          Corbyn’s ascendancy. Nothing to see there.
          BREXIT. Nothing to see there.
          Trump? Probably nothing to see there either.

          Now’t so blind…

      • Bill 20.1.2

        Erm. Trumps misogyny is an observation – not an argument.

        But stacking one person’s misogyny against 40 years of being told the boot on the neck is necessary for your own good, and looking to the alternative candidate who was instrumental in the placement of that boot, and weighing that back against promises about how the boot will be lifted… (see no2 in the comment below)

        Post-US Election Discussion Post

        • aerobubble

          Republicians want to control womens wombs, so Trump, whose alledgely and quite open misogeny, has caused maybe a few abortions, is now the leader of a party thats was once anti abortion. yeah, cant see how women could vote for that, not.

      • Lanthanide 20.1.3


        In 2012, males went R by +7 and females went D by +11.

        in 2016, it was males R +12 and females D by +12. That’s a 24 point gap, the largest in US history.

  19. Mike the Lefty 21

    The Democrats had their chance to be progressive with Bernie Sanders and they blew it, opting for the “safe” ultra-establishment figure of Clinton.
    A victory for American hate merchants, the Klu Klux Clan and the pro-gun lobby.
    It brings to mind the phrase: “Be careful what you wish for….”

    • gsays 21.1

      hi mike: two things,
      did folk vote for kkk, gun rights etc or against more of the same?

      if bernie was bernice would he had been shafted by the dnc?

    • aerobubble 21.2

      See here’s how liberals respond. Buy a gun. Politicians take you seriously then.

  20. millsy 22

    I knew this would happen. Right from when he first announced he was running for POTUSA.

    • Colonial Viper 22.1

      I figured it out once I saw his debate performance in the Republican primaries. Put some money on him then, as well.

  21. ianmac 23

    When Clinton wheeled out all those elite speakers, I wondered if that would have a counter effect on those who feel disconnected? Not envy so much as angry contempt.

    • Puckish Rogue 23.1

      I think it would, it annoys me when celebrity’s are wheeled out in such fashion as in the USA (fortunately its no so bad in NZ) and start telling people how to vote

      So you have someone without a college degree (or even with) finding it hard to get a decent paying job and then they have to listen to Katy Perry (or substitute anyone else you like) telling them to vote for the establishment

      Yeah I’d be angry as well

  22. rich the other 24

    Its said that for every action there is a reaction .
    The Trump victory is the reaction, it seems around the world people have had enough of political correctness and the long list of society manipulating ideology .
    Winners and losers , the Brits have just had a boost in their position when dealing with the EU , the free traders must be worried , the ttpa is gone and the climate change proponents have had a real kicking .
    Interesting times .

  23. Xanthe 25

    My take on the polls is that they have become a tool of the campaign. In general the predicted winner gets a boost. The data is selected to give the appropriate answer. Normally this works. Sometimes it dosen`t. It would be useful to examine this hypothisis in terms of US and brexit , ie what are the specific conditions under which influencing election results thru misleading polls stops working?)

  24. James 26

    Democracy working at its finest.

    I’m sure Trump will work better with Key (a business background) than Little (a union man) moving forward- so I think that’s another plus for national for next year.

    I also think Winnie is on the wrong track – nz does not have the same issues as the UK or the US – we don’t need a brexit or a circuit breaker – the voters will be happy enough with 4 more years of National or a move to labour/greens.

    There just isn’t a need to go against the ‘norm’.

    • aerobubble 26.1

      Key is a currency trader who tells people what they want to hear in order to gain their confidence having regarded stats an market movements, Trump however is on the other end of the phoneline who just won POTUS off selling how he wa going to change the contract for working stiffs. Yeah, so alike. Little, who? Little has yet to even attempt to resonate with anyone or thing.

      How did we get out of the depression? wars? War to dislodge old unequal thinking, for humanism and a lower working week, higher wages and a entertainment industry.
      Automization means lower hours work, less jobs, more leisure time, and yes even universal income puting everyone in competition, networked, and flexible. Old big corp loses in such a world of work.

      • Garibaldi 26.1.1

        AS usual I totally disagree with you James, so I must be on the correct track.

        • aerobubble

          Unfortuately for you we live in the ensemble, where the correct track is now even harder to discern due to the momentus election of an outlier who has promised to lead the leftbehind movement. It must sux to live a life where you know whats going to happen, another stupid boomer hey.

  25. pat 27

    Well I guess the remote chance that CC would be seriously tackled is gone….confirmation that human beings are collectively self destructive.

  26. Manuka AOR 28

    Will this be Trump’s “spiritual/ evangelical advisor” I wonder:


  27. mike 29

    Can’t have politics without an ‘establishment’. Read Roberto Michels and his Iron Law of Oligarchy in “Political Parties’.

    Human groups need to cooperate to kill Mammoths, and plans must be laid. Leaders and followers develop from this need.

    He also points out in ‘moderation theory’ how political systems (establishment oligarchies) eventually incorporate and digest populist groups, and nothing much changes.

    He wrote this stuff in the early 1900s. There have been a lot of attacks on ‘the establishment’, or ‘elites’, since then, and humans have experienced the destruction and loss of life caused by ‘anti-establishment’ leaders like Lenin, Mussolini, Franco, Hitler and Mao.

    Understandable anger at injustice must be coupled with our ability to reason. Simply snarling and hitting out blindly leads to terrible outcomes for many of our fellow humans. As Rwanda showed us.

    Attacks on ‘the establishment’ usually play on people’s fears, just as in the present situation in the US. Yes Reganomics has screwed many of us, and corporations have become faceless oligarchies controlling us, but it is only through strong and peaceful democratic government based in reason, not the rabid sensationalism of news media, ‘talkback or demagogues’, that can right wrongs.

    Simplistic panaceas based in fear as a response to injustice are never the answer.

  28. Sable 30

    Well hopefully this should see an end to the TPPA and peace between the superpowers.

    Jill Stein would have been wonderful as would Bernie but Trump will do at a pinch.

  29. Morrissey 31

    Allan Nairn: Did the FBI Hand the Election to Donald Trump?
    Democracy Now!, 9 November 2016

    “If it turns out that Trump wins narrowly in the Electoral College, it would be entirely fair to say that the FBI swung the election to Trump. And I don’t think anyone has ever claimed that J. Edgar Hoover swung a presidential election. I mean, Hoover had people assassinated. He tried to drive Martin Luther King to suicide. He blackmailed presidents. But I don’t think he ever swung a presidential election. In the case of Comey specifically, it looks to me like he probably had his hand forced by his people, because the FBI, as an institution, is just as it was in Hoover days. It’s been, I guess, somewhat reformed since then, but it’s still a deeply right-wing institution. … He saw that his people were going to leak the information about Weiner’s laptop anyway, so he had to come out and say it. So, it’s not so much Comey trying to hand the election to Trump, I think, as the FBI trying to hand the election to Trump.


    And it’s really important to note that since the ’90s, up until the—there was a period from the ’60s through the ’90s when all sorts of people—the press, the left, liberals—were basically attacking institutions like the FBI, like the CIA, like the U.S. military. But since the ’90s, a lot of liberals, at least, have basically dropped that attack and have started to make these institutions somewhat sacred and not questioning them. And now it’s, you know, coming back to bite…”


  30. Sanctuary 32

    It would pay not to be distracted by the liberal obession with identity politics in Trumps election. Ultimately, Trump increased the GOP vote amongst Hispanics and 53% of college educated women voted for him. It was all about the economy after all. The salaried liberal chattering class that obsesses about gender and ethnicity issues lives a bubble cushioned from the economic consequences of neoliberalism. Hopefully, this is the final stake in the heart of the middle class liberal elite who have arrogated the banner of the left to themselves and claim to have a majority of the population on their side.

    • Lanthanide 32.1

      “53% of college educated women voted for him”

      No, 53% of white women voted for him.

      There is no breakdown for education and sex in the exit polls:

      21% of people voted for Trump even though they thought he was dishonest. 20% of people voted for Trump even though they thought he didn’t have the right temperament for the role.

    • weka 32.2

      It would pay not to be distracted by the liberal obession with identity politics in Trumps election. Ultimately, Trump increased the GOP vote amongst Hispanics and 53% of college educated women voted for him. It was all about the economy after all. The salaried liberal chattering class that obsesses about gender and ethnicity issues lives a bubble cushioned from the economic consequences of neoliberalism. Hopefully, this is the final stake in the heart of the middle class liberal elite who have arrogated the banner of the left to themselves and claim to have a majority of the population on their side.

      This is a well concealed lie that needs to be brought to light. Because the people I’m listening to today aren’t people crunching numbers and spitting them out to suit their own political class agenda, but instead the people from the communities who think that gender and ethnicity are important and that Trump is going to impact on them majorly. Those are Black Americans. Women, including Black, Latino, working class and underclass women. People who live with the reality of the economic consequences of neoliberalism every day, and who are quite reasonably fearful that things are about to get a lot worse.

      So when you tell that lie, that Blackness, being female, basically any class that isn’t solely defined by economics, that these are simply obsessions of the middle class liberals, you are rendering those people and their politics invisible. Let’s just hope you don’t also take part in their active oppression beyond that, because one of the big fears I’m hearing is around the endorsement of class hatred.

      Yes, the middle classes have to be held accountable, but not by lying about what matters to people across the board. I reckon people who want the death of identity politics should just be more honest about it, and acknowledge who you are willing to throw under the bus to achieve your aims.

  31. Manuka AOR 33

    Syrian refugees, and Palestinians, to suffer the most:

    The Syrian people will be the first to suffer from his election. The doors of the United States will be slammed shut in the face of would-be Syrian refugees, with maybe an exception made for Christians

    Trump is poised to antagonise Iran by revoking the nuclear deal negotiated by the Obama administration

    Lastly, another regional “strong man” whose relations with Washington will greatly improve under Trump is Benjamin Netanyahu. Thus, another direct victim of Trump’s election will be the Palestinian people as Netanyahu will be given more of a free hand in dealing with them than any Israeli prime minister has had since Ariel Sharon in the aftermath of the September 11, 2001 attacks.

  32. Bill 34

    Initial thoughts (in no particular order)

    1. Trump came out with shit against so many sections of US society, that he can’t move on any without incurring the wrath of all. Whereas previously a President might have moved on (say) Latino’s and been able to do it in isolation, there’s a damned good chance that people are now realising (or about to realise) the old maxim that “an injury to one is an injury to all” The caveat is that to be effective people need to organise. Now.

    2. Trump will not deliver a single one of his campaign promises around “making America great again” (because he’s essentially just a blow hard) and disenchantment will swell the ranks of 1 above.

    3. The liberal press will be out to get him and will, at least short term, amplify anything coming from no. 1 above. My only reservation is that they’ll initially peddle fear and incomprehension that will act to paralyse efforts to organise. Medium and long term when they start to decry effective action and act to contain the momentum that threatens any prospect of a return to some liberal status quo, it will, hopefully, be too late. There is a window of opportunity, but 4 & 5.

    4. Handwringers need to put their hands to better use.

    5. Fence sitters need to take a walk.

    6. Trump is no anti-establishment figure and will be a puppet for corporations in much the way that Clinton would have been a puppet for Wall Street. The difference is that she could have gotten away with it. Trump won’t.

    7. Liberalism should have been killed off over 100 years ago. Better late than never.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 34.1

      1. How many tank divisions do his future victims have?
      2. Climate deniers running the EPA, a show trial for Clinton.
      3. The Liberal media were out to get Putin too.
      4, 5 & 6. See 1.
      7. Yes, there are going to be killings. Think Christmas Island on a grand scale.

      • Bill 34.1.1

        What has successful organising and mobilising got to do with tanks OAB?

        You want to take on a state with violence? You’ll lose. Yes, heads will be broken. That’s always been the case.

        Your comment suggests you ascribe to the school of thought that says ‘keep your head down and your mouth shut cause it’s all a bit “yikes!”…reads like you’re a hand wringing, fence sitting, middle of the road kind of a guy.

        Putting Clinton on trial (unlikely) and pulling out of Paris and what not has nothing to do with ‘making America great again’. That was all about jobs and security and rebuilding infrastructure, military capacity and whatever.

        Western media angling for ‘official enemies’ is relevant, how?

        What has burying a discredited and increasingly reviled political philosophy got to do with the collapse of an isolated and resource depleted civilisation? (I’m guessing that was what your reference to Christmas Island was about, yes?)

        • One Anonymous Bloke

          It suggests that to you does it? It follows your usual pattern of projecting your shit onto me so that comes as no surprise.

          I fully expect Trump to double down on his campaign rhetoric – the internment camps, the show trials, the violence against political opponents. You think he’s all about jobs and security and rebuilding infrastructure. I hope I’m wrong.

          A good sniper keeps his head down to kill the other guy first.

          • Bill

            It was you who made mention of tanks, not me. That kind of extreme interpretation of what it takes to orgainsie and mobilise is often enough an opening line used by fence sitters, hand wringers and the like before they lead into the ‘Mr Sensible’ realms of ‘it can’t be done’.

            As I said in the original comment, it’s highly likely that as long as people organise, Trump can’t effectively move against any single minority or section of society even if he wants to, because he’s already created some sort of nascent inter-related fucking hornet’s nest of common cause.

            You think otherwise?

            And he won’t deliver on a fraction of the positive stuff he promised because, as his record shows, he’s just a narcissistic blow hard who’s not entirely connected to reality. (It’s all about generating short term adulation) And the disenchantment that will produce will add numbers to those already geared against him.

            You think he’s suddenly going to against a lifetime of bluster and bullshit and actually deliver?

            I know sweet fuck all about shooting people. But I’d have thought a sniper keeping their head down would never actually get around to shooting at anyone. And I might reckon that to be a good thing.

            • One Anonymous Bloke

              It’s a reference to Stalin, who allegedly wanted to murder all the Catholics.

              “That will upset the Pope!”
              “Fuck the Pope, how many tank divisions does he have?”

              As you say, Trump will move against one section of society at a time. Once the machine is in place (large parts of it already exist) he can aim it at anyone he cares to. I sincerely hope I’m wrong.

              “some sort of nascent inter-related fucking hornet’s nest of common cause” sounds choice. Personally I don’t think enough people will lift so much as a finger. Be great to be wrong about that too.

        • One Anonymous Bloke

          Do you really not understand the reference to Christmas Island, Bill? That the model for a death/torture/slavery machine has had its nth road test? And no-one worth spit gives a shit?

          And you think those liberated citizens of the USA are going to stop it? Please, I hope so too.

    • adam 34.2

      One thing you missed Bill, how pissed off some of the libertarians are. I think we are going to see a split in the right over this, a big one. And soon. It will be interesting.

      The rest I agree with and I’ve started the conversation with some of the yanks I talk to on line.

      I went with a line paraphrasing Jill Stine – “Now that you don’t have to suck up the lesser of two evils…”

    • Colonial Viper 34.3

      Initial thoughts (in no particular order)

      Even though the entire power establishment seemed to be backing Trump, i do believe that IF he gets to do a full 8 years, his accomplishments as POTUS will compare very favourably to Obama.

      Which of course ain’t saying much.

      IF he gets 8 years. He has to make it to inauguration first.

      • Bill 34.3.1

        He’s a vacuous and incredibly narcissistic puppet CV. You saying that an unelected and unaccountable “power establishment” (odd term) pulling his strings will see good things eventuate?

        Nah. Trump is as establishment as the Clinton and the establishment has lost its credibility in the eyes of many, many people. Trump lied about where he was coming from to get elected and will reap a whirlwind.

        People organising to build a multi-faceted colossus with indefatigable momentum is where any good things are going to be coming from.

        • Richard Rawshark

          It’s like this I think Bill.

          What you say is correct i’d add on though, his make America great again and his bullshit to the blue collars about how he’s for them yadda yadda, well here you go rich boy, we’ll give you the POTUS, and we have 300 million guns, make our day..

          But rich boy, if your dicking with us, we will rip you a new one as you are everything that’s wrong with the world and here you are bullshitting for power.

        • Colonial Viper

          Your criticisms of Trump may be spot on, but I stick to my point. If he gets a full 8 years as POTUS, his term of office is going to compare very favourably to Obama.

          Trump lied about where he was coming from to get elected and will reap a whirlwind.

          Nah. You call Trump vacuous and incredibly narcissistic but he beat all the corrupt career DC insiders, the entire Democratic establishment, the entire Republican establishment, the hammering of the corporate MSM, and all on a campaign budget the fraction of Clinton’s.

          So if you cannot see skill, depth and judgement displayed just in that accomplishment you need to open your eyes.

          And BTW anyone who runs for the job of POTUS is going to have a fucking huge ego. It’s an absolute pre-requisite.

          Also, Trump said at many of his populist rallies that he used to be the ultimate insider, on the other side of the line. He’s never hidden the fact that he is a big money man who has cut plenty of controversial business deals in his career.

          So I think he’s been pretty open with who he is and where he has come from.

          • Rocco Siffredi

            “So if you cannot see skill, depth and judgement displayed just in that accomplishment you need to open your eyes.”

            Funny isn’t it? He’s just run circles around just about every single pundit, expert, insider and media figure, and it’s Trump that’s the idiot……

            • Colonial Viper

              Clearly vacuous with no judgement

              • Bill

                Where was there any mention of him lacking judgement? The judgement ,or lack thereof, resides with those forming an opinion about him.

                • Colonial Viper

                  You think he can be vacuous AND have judgement?

                  • Bill

                    ffs CV. “How do I get what I want for memememe?” Lot’s of judgement and calls come into that.

                    “What I got to offer or what are my reference points?”

                    Well, the first question is probably a kind of constant refrain running through Trumps mind. The second never crosses it. He’d disappear into an internal chasm of ‘not a fuck of a lot if anything at all’ if he ever looked.

            • Bill

              The same pundits, experts, insiders and what not who failed to understand the ascendancy of the SNP, Corbyn, BREXIT…

              He didn’t run rings around them. He read peoples’ sentiment. They didn’t.

          • Bill

            People desperately wanted something that wasn’t a continuation of 40 odd years where the boot has been placed firmly on their neck. Sanders gave them that, but didn’t get over the line.

            You know how badly people yearned for something different; something that wasn’t a continuation of the ‘same old’? Badly enough to take a punt on anything or on anyone. The world could have been thrown at that sentiment and it wouldn’t have changed. And Trump simply played to it – he’d be for the little guy against the big guys and he’d chase those big guy varmints alla the way outta Washington DC…forgetting to mention his own despicable crew of corporate lobbyists who are poised to take over.

            Trump’s hypocrisy aside, it’s precisely like BREXIT. And the liberal reaction – decrying apparent racism and what not is precisely the same too.

            Now Trump isn’t quite the showman that Ozzie Osbourne was back in his day, though he is good. But that’s all he is – a performer. Having the ability to confound a stage presence with other more meaningful or substantial attributes..like a well set moral compass or intelligence or empathy isn’t really an ability worth aspiring to.

            Anyway, they aren’t the best documentaries ever made, but ‘You’ve been Trumped’ and ‘You’ve been Trumped Too’ give, I think, a reasonable insight into how vacuous he is and how he presumes to interact with the world and people around him.

      • Puckish Rogue 34.3.2

        You seriously believe…something will happen?

        • Colonial Viper

          The globalist agenda is decades old and worth trillions of dollars to the richest most powerful most well connected thousand people in the world.

          If Trump does not bend sufficiently to their requirements there will be push back against Trump.

          He was never supposed to win this election. It was supposed to be either Jeb Bush or Hillary Clinton.

          • Puckish Rogue

            I like a good political thriller as much as the next person but we’ll see if this comes to pass

            • Colonial Viper

              Just check out the craziness around the Comey and Wikileaks stuff. The background stories to what we saw in public must be wild. Maybe we will find out in 10 or 20 years.

              I think the “political thriller” stuff is going to keep going…

              • Puckish Rogue

                In that case I’m glad the most pressing stuff we have to deal with is the PM pulling ponytails

      • Andre 34.3.3

        “He has to make it to inauguration first.”

        Is Alex Jones saying the lizard-people are displeased and will take action?

  33. Puckish Rogue 35


    Protests have broken out across the United States following news of Donald Trump’s election victory.

    In California, thousands of students took to the streets around the University of Southern California to yell anti-Trump profanities and chant “not my president.”

    Video from Portland journalist Mike Bivins showed a flag being burned as a crowd cheered and clapped. Other video showed students yelling “F*** Trump, smashing news stands and setting fire to rubbish bins.

    Well of course they are, I mean they didn’t get their way so of course they’re going to protest

    What else are they going to do, accept the result… pfft whatevs, I’m just surprised they haven’t retreated to their safe spaces

  34. Colonial Viper 37

    By the way, very droll choice of intro words for today’s post, “The Day After.”

    As an aside – here is President Obama in 2011 making jokes about the “Trump White House.”

  35. The Chairman 38

    Trump’s win is being labeled a white-lash against a black president. Overlooking the fact both contenders were/are white and Obama was/is on his way out regardless.

    • Colonial Viper 38.1

      The statistics are remarkable though. Both white men AND white women broke for Trump.

      Many were saying that women were going to decide the result of this election. And in a way they were right.

      White women were decisive in their participation: 53% went for Trump including 45% of them who had with College educations.

      For women without a complete college education, a massive 62% broke for Trump.

      All these women went with Donald J Trump rather than give their vote to the first white woman president.

      – White voters, who make up 69% of the total, voted 58% for Trump and 37% for Clinton.

      – Non-white voters, who make up 31% of the electorate, voted 74% for Clinton and 21% for Trump.

      – White men opted 63% for Trump and 31% for Clinton; white women voted 53% for Trump and 43% for Clinton.

      – Among non-college-educated whites, 67% voted for Trump – 72% of men and 62% of women.

      – Among college-educated whites, 45% voted for Clinton – 39% of men and 51% of women (the only white demographic represented in the poll where the former secretary of state came out on top). But 54% of male college graduates voted for Trump, as did 45% of female college graduates.

      – More 18- to 29-year-old whites voted for Trump (48%) than Clinton (43%).


      • Lanthanide 38.1.1

        The bigger determinant was college education, rather than male/female.

        • McFlock

          makes me wonder whether high school education was a determinant, too

          • dukeofurl

            None of the above
            This chart showing directly the vote by county ( by %) with Clinton on one axis and Obama on other ( the line down middle is both received the same % of that countys vote)

            The small ( GOP) counties for slightly more for Obama than Clinton, ie 20% vote for Clinton was 25% vote for Obama

          • Lanthanide

            Yes, there is a bit of a sliding scale. The more education you have, the more likely you were to vote Clinton rather than Trump.

            But the big shift-change was in college vs non-college.

  36. Ad 39

    Climate Change and energy policy will be one to watch under Trumpm. He’s on the record as a climate change denier who contends that it’s a hoax perpetrated by China.

    Under the President’s command:
    The Environmental Protection Agency, the Department of the Interior, Department of Energy, NASA, and the Commerce Department that holds the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration. That’s his easy targets, to defund, redirect, and squash.

    But next:
    He can ignore or pull out of the Paris Agreement. This 200-country pact came into force last Friday. The Morocco rule and instrument negotiations are underway right now. For those who want more, at this point in the world’s history there isn’t more.

    And next:
    The Clean Power Plan. This provided comprehensive rules for states including pollution-reduction targets for all existing power plants. Guaranteed President Trump will put Supreme Court nominations in place that block and reverse this. Trump = unregulated coal.

    And next:
    “Soft” energy and climate policy issues. By October this year, more than 80 businesses with a total of $5 Trillion market capitalisation, had signed up to a White House initiative pledging to bring their operations in line with Paris climate goals. Also, the DEA soft loans for renewable energy are on the block. Trump has no such commitment to influencing the market for sustainable energy.

    The only thing keeping the Obama climate initiatives alive will be Senate intransigence. But that won’t last.

  37. Puckish Rogue 40


    Interestingly I agree with a number of things he says in this, its a crazy world we live in

  38. mauī 41

    So we’ve just witnessed the biggest revolution in US politics in our lifetime. The left commentary seems to be saying they didn’t do it the lefty liberal way so they can get screwed, we want no part of this – give our establishment back. Carry on America with the decades long destructive regime until we get our ducks in a row and it’s our turn.

    Shit, someone just tore down a massive wall that’s been there forever and everyone’s staying put thinking no I have no interest to see what’s on the other side.

  39. McFlock 42

    Well, everything in his campaign pointed to trump being an orange mussolini, but I guess we’ll just have to see.

    Got a friend who just moved back to the states a few weeks ago – on the plus side I might be seeing her again sooner than expected lol

    I for one welcome our new oompah-loompah overlord…

  40. Jenny 43

    The shocking reality of Donald Trump’s plan to deport millions

    One day – hopefully soon – when the presidential candidacy of Donald Trump reaches its ignoble end, perhaps we’ll better understand how a real estate mogul-turned-reality TV star turned-politician could become the front-runner in the Republican primary. But for now, we must take Trump at his word: If elected president, he plans to deport all 11 million undocumented immigrants – including their U.S. citizen children. What’s more, Trump claims he’ll do it all within 18 months to two years. It is, according to Trump, just a question of “good management.”

    “The leading GOP candidate is talking about ferreting out, arresting, and forcibly removing a population of men, women and children roughly the size of the state of Ohio.”

    How would Trump actually deport 11 million people in less than two years? 
    The leading GOP candidate is talking about ferreting out, arresting, and forcibly removing a population of men, women and children roughly the size of the state of Ohio. Setting aside the Constitution for the moment – something most of Trump’s immigration platform ignores – let’s imagine what a grand scale deportation would mean in real terms. It’s frightening, extreme – and decidedly un-American.

    • Cinny 43.1

      That’s scary as, sounds like the dawn raids only a million times worse, FEMA camps ready to go no doubt.

      Some of those in the military will be rubbing their hands with glee at the prospect of being paid to bully others in this manner.

      The chat rooms of military style video games will be awash with recruiters soon if not already, because that is one of the ways the USA military recruits.

  41. Jenny 44

    “Trump eyes mass deportations for millions”

    Trump’s promise to deport millions of “Undesirable Aliens, according to NBC was on the Republican Party website.

    The Republican’s campaign website now includes a relatively detailed, 1,900-word outline of the Trump immigration plan, which does in fact call for the end of birthright citizenship, the 14th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution be damned. But in context, Trump appears to support deporting Americans, too – it’s the practical result of a policy that plans to keep families together, while also vowing mass deportations of all undocumented immigrants.

  42. Cinny 45

    Once again I feel so very very proud that I voted Greens last election, this feeling has occurred on a number of occasions over the last two years.

    Proud of you Meti 🙂 Thank you so much for not supporting Trump in such an important setting, aka Parliament today. I’m with the Greens on Climate Change, more power to them <3 THANK YOU GREENS YOU'VE DONE IT AGAIN.
    Whose got guts? The Green Party of Aotearoa NZ (Y)

    4:11 on the clip

    • Jenny 45.1

      All honour to the Green Party and their leaders. Shame on Labour and the Government.

    • Jenny 45.2

      New Zealand ‘Centrists’ and Right Wingers stand up in parliament to vote their support for the election of President Trump. Because he was “elected democratically”.

      So was Hitler.

      (And for much the same reasons, and with much the same rhetoric).

      I wonder whether those rushing to congratulate President Trump, abandoning all principle in the process. Would have done the same for Hitler? Because he too was “democratically elected”.

      Hitler becoming Chancelor in 1933 resulted from the democratically elected seats that his party held. As head of the party, Hitler could either be directly elected to a position, like the one he lost to Hindenburg, or he could gain the Chancellorship by his party having a clear majority in the Reichstag and get appointed by the President, OR HE COULD become Chancellor without a clear majority via a coalition government… It is the last option that saw Hitler rise to power and the “back room deals” many Americans lament as having got him there, were simply a normal part of forming a coalition government in a democratic parliamentary system. Hitler’s party was elected, it formed a legitimately democratic coalition government with a condition of that coalition being Hitler’s appointment to the chancellery… Which was just the German title (although much weaker position) of Prime Minister. So yes, Hitler was elected via his role as party leader within a democratic institution.


      Being elected doesn’t make, wrong right. People of conscience and with the courage to speak out, do it because they know this to be true.

      For having the courage of their convictions, as Ginny said of the Green Party in Parliament today “more power to them”.

      Shame on the rest.

      • Cinny 45.2.1

        Strongly agree, shame on the rest. Good point re Hitler and democracy for sures.

      • Richard Rawshark 45.2.2

        Be nice for one of the western leaders to say, Trump if he commits human rights violations we are going to freeze there accounts :).

        eh John?

        Ball less I agree, not sure what Labour said either.

        But Metiria Turei impressed me with her standing on principles and fuck the consequences kind of way.

        • Nic the NZer

          We should start by freezing the accounts of various Australian’s for the human rights violations already committed?

  43. Jenny 46

    “Early Stages of Persecution”

    At first, Jews were deported as “undesirable aliens” or sent to the concentration camps, where they thought they were just going to stay for a while.

  44. Siobhan 47

    Not to ‘celebrate’ THE Election…but in honour of Gov. Jerry Browns Proposition 57 which will seriously dent that states mass incarceration problem…so its not ALL bad news this week.


    (The song is about Brown, kinda mean, but awesome)

  45. Jenny 48

    “Our two countries share a strong relationship and I look forward to that continuing. Over the coming months we will be looking to build close ties with the incoming Trump Administration.”
    John Key

    Donald Trump’s announced intention to deport over 11 million undocumented immigrants and their US citizen children, beginning “on day one” of his presidency and complete it within 2 years, needs to be greeted with revulsion by the rest of the globe.

    Instead of cosying up to the Trump presidency, as John Key is currently doing, John Key should be publicly threatening to cut all diplomatic ties, if there is even the slightest sign that President Trump intends to carry through with his plans.

    The Latest: Trump promises ‘I will not let you down’

    • North 48.1

      Key would suck up to The Devil when doing otherwise would require balls……the classic ball-less man(?) in my view.

      Anyway, what I wanted to say is that in Trump’s victory there are positives. The chief one I see is that eventually real change will occur but only on account of the incompetence and grossness of Trump. God some swivel-eyed Trump surrogate on CNN right now…….Gingrich for Secretary of State…..?

      Imagine the neon atop the Trump White House for Fuk Sake. A clown at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue.

      If Trump smashes neo-liberalism then all good and I will thank him. But aren’t we really gonna get a transfer of power from one power to another power. It’s not as though Trump’s ever been a true friend of the working man. As a spoilt silver spoon in mouth child to start with.

      But will there be change ?…….probably not. Trump will be a damp squib overborne by vanity. Trump’s just a stage in the journey towards a real America which because of the importance of the USA means real World. It’ll take 40 years sadly for the yolk of rich people on whichever side is thrown off. There will be a Ceaucescu moment eventually.

      • Colonial Viper 48.1.1

        I laugh at how people keep underestimating Trump. Next time the Democrats should put forward a stronger candidate.

      • Jenny 48.1.2

        “But will there be change ?…….probably not.”

        Unfortunately there will be change. And just like in Germany, even the establishment won’t be safe, and will be made to suffer, one way or the other.

        The establishment mandarins who control the Democratic Party and who promoted Hilary Clinton over Bernie Sanders, may yet live to rue the day they chose one of their own, over the popular Left anti-establishment DP candidate, deemed by them to be “too extreme”. Only to see the anti-establishment mood of the American people captured by the extreme Right.

  46. Colonial Viper 49

    Arizona just called for President Elect Trump, and its 11 electoral votes push Trump up to 290 electoral votes now, the number I have predicted for the last 2 or so months.

    A clear, outright win for the anti-establishment change candidate.

  47. Richard Rawshark 50

    Lots of shootings.. bad shit going down

  48. Richard Rawshark 51


    bad bad stuff, and 4 or 5 I think shot at seattle protest..

    this ones massive by the look of the pic and video on Stuff.

  49. Jenny 52

    For Centrist establishment politicians the lessons of a Trump victory should be clear.

    Embrace the Left or lose to the Right

    Arguably, Trump won because the Democratic Party establisment centrists misreading the mood of the country refused to embrace the Left.

    Staring down the barrel of a fourth term National government Labour in New Zealand are facing the same dilemma.

    Will Andrew Little become another Hilary Clinton?

    Will Andrew Little arrogantly spurn the Left?

    Mana and the Maori Party look likely to join up.

    Combined, Mana/Maori will have a major say in forming the next government, taking at least one or even two Maori electorate seats from Labour.

    Currently, the weak negotiating position of the Mana Party means such a hook up between the Maori Party and the Mana Party will be on the Maori Party’s terms.

    Which will translate into another National led government.

    Just like the Democrats who spurned anti-establishment Bernie Sanders and reaped the bitter reward.

    For Labour the choice is clear. Accomodate Hone Harawira or again reap the bitter reward of another National led government.

    Kelvin Davis a proven capable MP, in recognition of his worth, needs to be kept high on the Labour list, and edorse Harawira as the electorate MP for Te Tai Tokerau.

    In my opinion this would increase Davis’s mana not detract from it.

    Can this be so hard to do? Afterall Andrew Little, the Labour leader is a List MP.
    A stronger negotiating position for Harawira will drag the whole Maori/Mana coalition to the Left, ensuring a Labour led government.

    Can Labour and Kelvin Davis swallow their pride enough to be able to do this. Or as Chris Trotter likes to say, will Labour again choose to keep control of the losing side rather than risk losing control of the winning side.

    • Peter Swift 52.1

      There is no great movement for change in NZ, no anti establishment undercurrent boiling away, so no real parallel with the us. Besides, cuddling up to mana and the mp isn’t the answer for Little and labour anyway.
      For one they don’t have the numbers, and two, being national party parliamentary stooges, they clearly don’t represent the left.

      And if Hone does go and crawl back to the house under the maori party skirt, will he get the same vitriol from the extreme left like the greens did when it was suggested they could work with national? Knowing how double standards work, I doubt it.

      • Invisible Axe 52.1.1

        “There is no great movement for change in NZ, no anti establishment undercurrent boiling away, so no real parallel with the us.” Not learnt anything I see…

  50. Peter Swift 53

    Just wishing it were true doesn’t mean it actually is.
    If there were anything in it, you’d see it reflected on the streets, in polling, in by elections and so forth and there’s nothing.
    I think some confuse a personal need for change, amplified in an echo chamber like on here, and assume the wider public is at their backs pitch forks in hand.
    Not saying it won’t happen, but it hasn’t yet, so any lessons learnt has been incorrectly applied to our NZ situation.

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