The flag poll

Written By: - Date published: 7:47 am, September 21st, 2015 - 90 comments
Categories: identity, polls - Tags:

OK I confess I’m only writing this post because the chance to use that title tickled my fancy. But anyway:

Most Kiwis don’t want flag change – poll

The 3 News Reid Research poll shows just 25 per cent of people want to change the flag after seeing the four shortlisted options while almost 70 per cent say no. Six per cent did not know.

The shortlist was released at the start of September and the poll began a week later. The poll of 1000 eligible voters was taken from September 8 to 16 and has a margin of error of +/- 3.1 per cent. …

Key’s begging on the flag fiasco is getting pretty desperate.

90 comments on “The flag poll ”

  1. vto 1

    Flags are so outdated, we all have cellphones now don’t you know

  2. infused 2

    I love how you guys always quote these tweets from nobodys like they mean something.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 2.1

      They should know their place and wait for celebrity effluent to fight over.

    • save NZ 2.2

      Someone told me that ‘breaking news’ by the new TV3 ‘reporter’ linked to John Key and Ponygate, was that Mike Hoskings was seen using a vacuum cleaner for his car in Remuera!” Wow! That’s real news! Is that who you consider Somebodies and their news ‘means something?”

    • weka 2.3

      “I love how you guys always quote these tweets from nobodys like they mean something.”

      Cool, we’ve been saying for ages that Gower doesn’t mean anything.

    • appleboy 2.4

      You don’t know who Tova O Brien and Paddie Gower are? You have been spending too much time up Key’s arse looking for the sunshine.

    • Lanthanide 2.5

      Like well-known political editors for major news media in this country?

  3. Outofbed 3

    Hoisted on his own petard

  4. Ad 4

    My bet is Key will press on, change the flag, take a permanent 5% on his Preferred PM stats, and take the real prize:
    To permanently take the “nation builder” crown off Labour.

    We have been riding the laurels of the post-1940s New Deal definition of the state as a structural enabler. Key is remaking it to one in which the state is a series of contracts unified only by brand. The flag is that brand.

    Whether they win in 2017 or not, the prize for Key is permanence in the history books.

    • Pat 4.1

      a strange comment in light of the fact 70% oppose change

    • Olwyn 4.2

      That is an insightful comment Ad – I think you are in exactly the right ballpark with regard to what Key wants. However, to quote Robbie Burns, “The best laid schemes o’ mice an’ men / Gang aft agley”. Key has taken a largish risk with his logo flag, and so far the chances of it paying off do not look promising.

  5. esoteric pineapples 5

    Shame to see Chrystal next to the Prime Minister, even if it is at a fundraisers. Celebrities, sports people etc need to realise that John Key is highly disliked by a large percentage of New Zealanders now

    • Lanthanide 5.1

      Yip, she went to my high school in my year, although I didn’t really have anything to do with her.

  6. Ovid 6

    It’s also gratifying to see Labour gain 8 percent on their election result. That’s a good base to work on with an eye to 2017.

  7. Puckish Rogue 7

    http://www.3news.co.nz/nznews/political-poll-support-low-for-flag-change-2015092016#axzz3mJnGRKPe

    Gratifying to see National at 47% and Lab/Greens 43% but not so gratifying seeing Winston as King Maker again

    I just wonder what National will give Winston…at least it should mean the end of Peter Dunne so thats something

    • swordfish 7.1

      You’re derailing, of course, but what the hell…..

      …..that’s the 5th consecutive TV Poll (Colmar Brunton / Reid Research) that puts
      the combined Opposition ahead of not only the Govt Bloc but, indeed, the entire
      Right Bloc.

      Oppo Bloc averaging around 51%
      Govt Bloc averaging around 48%

      Big change from Election, Puckers, Biiigggggggg change.

      And I see, as a result, you’ve been forced to adopt a new strategy – suddenly now smuggling into your little bon mots a rather dodgy assumption that Winnie will automatically head in the Nats’ direction.

      Hilarious stuff.

      • Puckish Rogue 7.1.1

        Say you’re Winston Peters and you have the choice of either going in with National and being the second and only coilition partner and getting a lot of concessions or

        Go with Labour with Labour and get less concessions since both he and the Greens will have to share the concessions

        What do you think Winstons going to do, share the power or take as much power as he can

        Winston will previcate as he always does but he knows Key will pay him what he wants whereas Labour can’t because the Greens will also want theirs

        For example do you think winston would agree to the Greens being given the finance portfolio?

        Winston is neutral, to count him on any side is a mistake

        • swordfish 7.1.1.1

          You’re forgetting a simple concept, Puckers …

          REVENGE !!!

          … ruthless, determined, cold-blooded, unsparing, clinically-executed REVEEEEEEENNNNNNGGGGGE !!!!!!!!!

          • Puckish Rogue 7.1.1.1.1

            You’re forgetting that Winston wants a legacy, Key can offer him more and who do you think can cut the best deal Key or Little?

            • One Anonymous Bloke 7.1.1.1.1.1

              Given that they’d both have exactly the same things to offer, your question is drivel.

              • Puckish Rogue

                The concept might be a bit difficult for you to understand but Winston can choose to negotiate with only National or Winston can choose to negotiate with Labour knowing full well that Labour has to also negotiate with the Greens

                Winston can get more concessions from National because National doesn’t have to worry about any other party (sorry Maori Party)

                As an example if Winston and the Greens both want the finance portfolio then theres going to have to be a backdown by someone whereas National could give it to Winston

                • Lanthanide

                  “whereas National could give [the finance portfolio] to Winston”

                  Except they wouldn’t, unless he was on like 20%+.

                  It is unlikely Labour would give the finance portfolio to the Greens, either.

                  • Puckish Rogue

                    Yes of course its unlikely and the Greens have nowhere else to go so they’ll take what Labours gives them and be greatful like the lap dogs they are so yes unlikely

                    But not impossible

                • leftie

                  @ PR You have forgotten Peter Dunne that National has to make concessions to.

                  Winston Peter’s, who not only apologized for supporting the Nats in the 1990’s, hasn’t supported National in almost 20 years since, hates John key, and was very quick to support a Labour government under Helen Clark, and he thoroughly enjoyed the experience.
                  NZ First and the Labour Party are on the same page on a number of issues, as are the Greens. I think you will find there wont be such an issue as you may like to think.

                • Clemgeopin

                  Your theory is based on the latest poll. There are still 2 years to the election.

                  Just imagine if National by then is at 37%, NZF at 8% =45%
                  where as if Labour is at 40% and the Greens at 12%? =52%

                  or
                  Labs at 36%, Greens at 12% and NZF at 8%?=56%

                  or,
                  Labs at 36%, Greens at 10% and NZF at 10%?=56%

                  Early days! So no use of your idle talk just yet, because then you will need to keep revising your theory each time a poll comes out!

                  Be patient.

                  One thing is clear. Key’s, National’s and the RW star is fading, slowly but steadily compared to the last election result. Is it not?

            • Ovid 7.1.1.1.1.2

              Look at it like this, if Winston were kingmaker he’d either be supporting a 1st term government or a 4th term one. For the longevity of his influence, it would be much more likely for a 1st term government to gain a second term in 2020 than it would be for a 4th term government to gain a 5th.

              Further, a change in government allows a new policy direction, which would give him a lot more latitude. National is carrying a lot of baggage.

              • Puckish Rogue

                Theres also Winstons own statements about supporting the largest party first but what it really shows is you shouldn’t count on Winston until the election is done and dusted

                • You_Fool

                  He said he would talk to the largest party first; nothing about supporting nor about giving them a benefit in the decision.

                  • Puckish Rogue

                    True and thats why Winston should be considered neutral

                    • leftie

                      I do not think you see Winston Peter’s as being neutral though PR, I get the impression from you that you assume Winston Peter’s will automatically support National, and in my humble opinion, I do not think he will.

                • leftie

                  @PR Winston Peter’s said the only way Labour and the Greens had a chance of forming a government was with NZ First.

        • Pat 7.1.1.2

          is 2 years away and Winston could be dead by then…..numerical poultry

      • infused 7.1.2

        Peters ain’t going to go with Labour.

        • One Anonymous Bloke 7.1.2.1

          Just after the war with North Korea starts, eh. You should open a roadside stand: Madame Infused’s World of Wonders.

        • You_Fool 7.1.2.2

          And Peters won’t go with National either.

          Look it is pointless saying who Winnie will go with as no one knows but Winnie, and he won’t decide until such a time he is in a position to actually decide.

          There is equal reasons why he would go with either NAct or LabGrn and equal reasons why he wouldn’t go with either. He is also unlikely to sit on the cross benches, but then again he may do that anyway

          What it means is that there is no point going around claiming you know what Winnie is going to do other than to troll the otherside

          • McFlock 7.1.2.2.1

            yep, pretty much.
            I suspect that without winston NZ1 will become much more national’s ally (for a given meaning of the word – NZ1 has sensed it can clean up in the rural seats national has long neglected), but it’s a fool who tries to predict what winston will or won’t do.

        • leftie 7.1.2.3

          Why not Infused? Winston Peter’s supported the previous Labour government and loved it.

    • NickS 7.2

      at least it should mean the end of Peter Dunne so thats something

      Probably not, Dunne’s still got a strong hold on his electorate and to for him to loose it would require cross party co-operation vis strategic voting or Dunne retiring/dying.

  8. mac1 8

    Maybe just a chance to use a good pun for a title, but I hope it won’t be your Last Post, Anthony.

    As for the changing of the flag. I would like to have it changed, but don’t like the given alternatives. There will be no way to know, the Key has organised it, whether Kiwis want a change, (except by opinion polling), if they vote the first referendum choice down in the second referendum and keep the original.

    If a change of flag is not accepted in the second referendum, how long would it take before this initiative would be taken up again? At the moment, there is no real reason to adopt a new flag apart from an untested desire for change.

    Happily, the next time there would be an opportunity to get the questioning priority right, incorporating it into a wider republic versus monarchy debate. Then, a republic would need a new flag.

    • Clemgeopin 8.1

      I think this flag stunt should be suspended until the PEOPLE indicate a strong (Average 60% plus) desire for change through a series of media polls.

      In the meantime, suspend these two referendums and ask Key and his millionaire class mates to pay back the 26 million dollars or what ever it is they have squandered on this completely mismanaged and blatantly manipulated fiasco so far.

  9. Another anonymous person 9

    Well I guess I should stop yawning and make my fist tiny input about the flag.
    From the beginning I found this completely futile and a terrible waste of energy and resources.
    I have not followed it, but could not miss it cropping up in front of me thrust in my face. Its all about John Key and what he wants.
    There never was any genuine intention to involve the people of New Zealand.
    So really I reckon under slightly different circumstances, John Key has the personality like Vladimir Putin. I wonder if he dreams of that?
    While I think the Flag is not important enough to bother with doing anything about, I think differently over the hymn which passes for a national anthem. I would wake up for a mission to change that.

  10. cogito 10

    Keep the flag and press Key’s nose into the floor of the cowshed where it belongs.

    • save NZ 10.1

      I think you mean press Key’s nose into the money markets floor – John Key can’t even hammer a nail let alone milk a cow, unless the cow is a metaphor for the entire country.

    • leftie 10.2

      Cognito yep, keep the Flag and Change the PM.

  11. Another anonymous person 11

    Sadly I don’t feel any optimism arising by any party rising or falling in the polls.
    My experience is that all parties are much the same, and regardless of which kids the voters enough that they get elected, we are all worse off – but a debate might be had as to why that is [global or local factors or both]. Nobody will agree on that either.
    Because I gave up voting, I’m told that “by not voting I can’t complain!”;

    but there is an all to neglected flip side to that – Those who did vote can’t complain either because by voting they gave legitimacy to the sham electoral process and just have sour grapes over the outcome. Democracy seems a very corruptible thing.

    Honestly, I cannot bring myself to lend my support or consent to any of them. I dread Labour and the Greens as much as National, United future and NZ First.

    • cogito 11.1

      Change is possible. Just think of the popular support for Jeremy Corbyn.

    • Amy 11.2

      Then what alternative do you propose? Representative democracy has many weaknesses but is much better than the alternative.

      Despite what you may feel or believe, NZ is more free than most countries. And democracy is not only central government. In this country we have real power to change things radically in local elections. Even democracy right down to local school boards!

      When I moved to NZ from my home country of China, it took a very long time to fully understand that here we are free and just how precious that is.
      . If you doubt that, what about this blog? It is openly anti Key. Try that in China and you will truly learn what evil and the lack of power to influence truly is.

      That is one of reasons I comment on here occasionally. To be free to express opposing views is rare in this world.

      • cogito 11.2.1

        “To be free to express opposing views is rare in this world.”

        Too many people take our democratic traditions and institutions for granted, and people like Key take every opportunity to undermine them and manipulate them for his own power/ego-driven purposes.

        That is why it is crucial that people speak up and speak out. We need to maintain the integrity of our democratic institutions and drive out those who are intent on corrupting them – Key being a prime example.

    • save NZ 11.3

      What policy would get you to vote again? Just interested because the right’s agenda is to get voters to feel it is not worth voting and that every party ‘is the same’. There are pretty clear differences – however in this country last election – I too struggled to find someone to vote for. That I think is part of the plan. Confusion.

      Undermine people with trivia or mimic messages i.e. ‘Reduce poverty’ and ‘working for families’ so that really important stuff gets left out or ignored or real issues look to be addressed by each party but are not. i.e. National address poverty by Social Bonds. The message is the same as the Greens (to reduce poverty) but the Greens obviously have a completely different take and it’s difficult to get it across in a sound byte why the Natz reducing poverty strategy is going to fail or is not even true without looking negative.

      Those that are more successful at countering the attacks have smear campaigns and ultimately leave politics or are replaced.

      Natz have it all worked out. But when are the opposition going to have a counter strategy not a Lite strategy and actually try to stop the rot and lies infesting this country.

      It is clearly not just a NZ problem. It is an international political problem where by people’s rights fought for are being eroded and increasingly powerful individuals and corporations have zero accountability and politicians in their pockets via donations to boot.

    • Clemgeopin 11.4

      Shame on you. You do not understand what a democracy means nor deserve one. Think about it.

  12. Chooky 12

    Great Post +100 ….”Most Kiwis don’t want flag change – poll”….LUV IT!.

    XX kiss kiss …made my day!

  13. swordfish 13

    Interesting that when Key first floated the idea of a flag change in early 2014, the most recent previous opinion poll on the issue (July 2013) had suggested 61% for a new flag / 39% against.

    3 of the 4 polls on the issue before July 2013 had opposition to change easily outnumbering support.

    So, I wonder if Key and his advisors decided in early 2014 that public attitudes were beginning to shift quickly in favour, only to find over the subsequent 20 months (up to the present day) that, in fact, no such transformation of opinion had taken place, with virtually every poll finding clear opposition (mixed with considerable apathy) to a change.

    • Clemgeopin 13.1

      One reason for that is Key made it his personal ego trip and National party agenda without making it a collective endeavour by not consulting with and taking the opposition political parties into confidence. Then he very stupidly manipulated the whole process. Dumb.

  14. swordfish 14

    Key says question in latest Flag Poll “not sophisticated enough”

    http://www.3news.co.nz/nznews/key-flag-poll-question-not-sophisticated-2015092107#axzz3mK4NVjOT

    You gotta laugh.

    • maui 14.1

      It’s a bit like watching state Venezuelan TV six months out from a revolution.

    • Jo 14.2

      We’re gullible simple folk of course, sadly not yet sufficiently granulated to understand the conceptual subtlety of such an unsophisticated question.

  15. The Gormless Fool formerly known as Oleolebiscuitbarrell 15

    But 70% of us like Coldplay.

  16. vto 16

    Bounced this around a few contemporaries and non-contemporaries the last few days and what amazed me was the massive difference in views, with seemingly no political affiliation machination going on. Intensely personal and variable – couldn’t be estimated with reference to the person’s political leanings.

  17. Dazzer 17

    I suspect this will come back and bite the left and rightly so.

    Labour’s policy at the last election was similar enough: “review the design of the New Zealand flag involving flag design experts and with full public consultation and involvement”.

    The only issue I can see is that many on the left seem to think only the left can define positive change. A fair degree of Key Derangement Syndrome has followed.

    Hence, most on the left seemed to relish in the lack of engagement the public had with the process and seemed to actively encourage it. Then all of a sudden, options were presented and the same who were cheering the apparent lack of interest (and were likewise not engaged) all of a sudden wanted to be engaged. Where was the discussion on the Peak when the panel was engaging – there was plenty of comment about the lack of interest.

    If people don’t want to change, that’s democracy at work (altho I think that’s where the line about sheep gets played out??). That so many on the left have made it political rather than an opportunity to define who we are says much about the left.

    The flag will change eventually I have no doubt and I’m equally sure we will then see this as an opportunity missed.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 17.1

      So the 70% who don’t want any part of Shonky’s vain clusterfuck, which involves neither full public consultation nor design expertise, are “The Left”?

      Your argument is very very feeble.

      • Dazzer 17.1.1

        That wasn’t what I was saying.

        I’m happy for the process to come out with that result.

        What I was pointing out that those who appeared to be deliberately choosing to not engage then became those who demanded engagement when the option they liked wasn’t chosen.

        Not to mention that the approach was similar to that proposed by Labour. So suggesting that a policy that Labour proposed last election is Shonky’s vain clusterfuck simply highlights my point which I should thank you for so do.

        • One Anonymous Bloke 17.1.1.1

          That’s a lovely shiny new definition of “similar”. Do you believe the things you type?

        • McFlock 17.1.1.2

          Not really.
          It’s another example of national taking decent policy and screwing it up on all levels, for far greater cost that it requires.

        • maui 17.1.1.3

          Labour will: review the design of the New Zealand flag involving flag design experts and with full public consultation and involvement.

          That’s a long way from using a select roundtable to do the decision making, foisting the process onto the public, using celebs and media to push certain ideas, etc.

        • Keith 17.1.1.4

          Why would anyone get involved in what strongly appears to be a rigged process. God knows Key is anything but a straight shooter when it comes to any due process, just read Dirty Politics!

          And if the “left” is now up around 70% then fantastic!

          • AB 17.1.1.4.1

            Yep – another corrupt process from Key. Like the Sky City Deal – no direct, documentary evidence of actual corruption, but a corrupt process.

    • cogito 17.2

      “an opportunity to define who we are”

      What we currently have is an opportunity to lick Key’s backside.

      Thankfully most people are realising this and are expressing their opposition.

    • Gabby 17.3

      You didn’t really read what you copypasted did you? Read the 2nd sentence. The quote.

    • Clemgeopin 17.4

      What choice? 3 ferns and a poor depiction of a koru!

      Key, the panel and the cabinet are playing DIRTY manipulated games here! Can’t you see it? Let us not allow these crooked and cunning bastards to get away with it.

  18. Keith 18

    Hence Key dragged Little into the mire. Farrar would have been telling him for the past few weeks and certainly since the desperate “Richie” stamp of approval on a silver fern that no one gives a shit about their/his flag choices or the process. So mug someone else, blame them and deflect the hit.

    Its ironic though that National have for so long dumbed the population down with their deliberate confusing miselading management style, relying daily on the great kiwi pastime of not thinkiing about anything to do with politics. And so when Key wants us to vote on a new corporate logo, its too hard!

    Brilliant!

  19. Neil 19

    Its totally disgusting that Key used a fund raiser for cervical cancer to push his vanity flag project, events like those are not the time or place to be promoting his flag change project & politics. Key obviously has no scruples or morals.

  20. Morrissey 20

    KEEP THE FLAG, CHANGE THE PRIME MINISTER.

  21. Lloyd 21

    I spent almost a year driving around London with a New Zealand flag on my cars front window. It had New Zealand written underneath it in a font about one fifth the size of the flag. I got tired of Londoners saying “so you’re an Australian” after glancing at the flag.

    If Londoners can’t tell the difference between the New Zealand flag and the Australian flag, we could save money and just fly the Australian flag. Who cares?

    • Pat 21.1

      of course, being Londoners they may have been taking the piss

    • cogito 21.2

      Plenty of examples of similar flags including eg Russian vs Dutch, Italian vs Irish, Danish vs Norwegian, Iraqi vs Syrian.

      No reason to change.

  22. Lloyd 22

    I used to be concerned that if Muslim terrorists saw a New zealand flag they might attack New Zealanders for what Abbot’s thugs were doing. Now we’ve joined the insanity in Iraq this concern has been somewhat obscured by what kiwis may be doing in Iraq.

    If we adopt a black flag with a white fern on it I am sure the US military will see it as an ISIS flag and New Zealanders will be killed by “friendly fire” in the Middle East under that flag. Choosing a black flag with a silver fern might be the best choice for a country that wants to keep out of the middle east debacle.

  23. JanMeyer 23

    Worrying poll for the “progressive left” as shows how conservative (small c) and change averse most of us really are. Perversely (or not), consistent with John Key’s, and National’s, relentless ongoing popularity

  24. Grindlebottom 24

    I was for a change of flag until I saw the logos the dopey panel came up with. None of them look anything like a national flag compared to the national flags of most other countries. Talk about the stupidity of giving a serious job to total amateurs.

    I’d rather keep the current flag for now and start over again in a few years time, this time getting people experienced in flag designing and/or heraldry maybe to come up with some decent choices.

  25. Tanz 25

    The choices are all awful, including the bland and meaningless Red Peak. It’s all for the wrong reasons too, such as glory for Key and going republic, cutting off those so-called wicked Colonial (that gave us such a rich back-story, and all the trappings of enriched civilisation, what the West is built on, which the left loathe)…ties!!

    Keep the flag, pulease.

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