Trump’s not so bad: the inject bleach edition

Written By: - Date published: 10:15 am, April 25th, 2020 - 152 comments
Categories: covid-19, Donald Trump, us politics - Tags: , , , ,

A while back I wrote a post about the problem with that idea Trump’s not so bad, an idea that comes from both parts of the left and the moderate right. The post was in light of stealing kids and putting them in cages, and the general, now years old, analysis of rising fascism in the US. I posted some examples of the damage being done. For reference.

If the past four years weren’t evidence enough, here’s the latest example.

 

From the Independent,

“I see the disinfectant that knocks it out in a minute, one minute. And is there a way we can do something like that by injection inside or almost a cleaning,” the president said during his daily Covid-19 briefing. A senior health official, under questioning from reporters, later said federal laboratories are not considering or trying to develop such a treatment option.

…

“You see it gets in the lungs and it does a tremendous number [on the] lungs, so it would be interesting to check that,” he said, appearing to refer to the disinfectant idea. “We’re going to have to use medical doctors, but it seems interesting to me”

I watched the above video and I thought, this man is deeply stupid. So stupid he can’t conceive of how stupid he is. Handy explanation from John Cleese,

https://twitter.com/cm_merlin/status/1253453385015209989

 

Let’s laugh while we still can.

It can’t be performance, surely. But if one of the tactics of fascism is to create regular chaos to social norms so that the MSM and the general  public can’t keep up, but instead become inured to the social and political changes that allow power to be consolidated, then it doesn’t matter if Trump really is this stupid. Because the performance of a fool serves the same purpose. I’m not sure it’s possible to separate out the fool from the fascism any more.

Watch this snip of the Coronavirus Response Coordinator for the president’s Coronavirus Taskforce, Dr Deborah Birx,

Everyone in the room, including one of the President’s own senior pandemic advisors, knows that what he is saying is both a complete nonsense and dangerous. Much is being made of Dr Birx’s body language, but I’m sitting here wondering why the fuck she doesn’t get up and walk out. Really, how far is this going to go? We’re well beyond the Emperor’s new clothes.

Meanwhile,

For those unaware, drinking disinfectant is a practice used by some parents of autistic children, whereby having the child drink chlorine dioxide is believed to be a cure. MMS (Miracle Mineral Supplement) is a widely promoted alt health practice claimed to cure, among other things, autism, cancer, and HIV/AIDS. The FDA has issued advisories to stop it.

One thing to pay attention to here is the connection between what Trump is saying and some of the alt health communities, who in the US also tend to be anti-vaxxers and have high distrust the government. They’re more likely right now to be running conspiracy theories about covid, and to be denying the seriousness of the pandemic. My guess is that there is a significant overlap there with support for Trump, the cultures share much especially around libertarian values. The lack of scientific literacy displayed by Trump is very similar to how the MMS/alt health conspiracy crowd operate. This appears to be getting worse.

This is worth noting because ridiculing these people is about as effective as ridiculing redneck Trump voters and calling them deplorables. Many in the alt health crowd should be progressive/left wing but are being radicalised to the alt right.

Turns out that the leader of the MMS movement has been emailing the president.

The other issue is that the whole performance is a form gaslighting where we are expected to deny reality and our own perceptions in favour of an authoritarian narrative. Trump’s idiocy for all to see yesterday was followed up today with PR saying he was being sarcastic. Trump’s supporters, including MSM, are running lines that he didn’t suggest that people actually inject bleach, but was simply raising some ideas for medical research. Tui award right there.

152 comments on “Trump’s not so bad: the inject bleach edition ”

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  1. bill 1
    25 April 2020 at 10:29 am

    Is it really that Trump isn't so bad, or more a case of others being no better?

    Obama was President when kids were put in cages. Biden encouraged Democratic voters via text to go out and vote in person in the middle of a pandemic. Health care authorities in the South of England announced they were issuing Do Not Resuscitate orders on people with learning difficulties and autism.

    I could go on and on with examples of mendacity and stupidity from people in positions of authority, but I guess there would be no point in a world where people would rather slate everything back to the presence of one man in high office as though – this belief applies to some – his removal would 'set things to rights'.

    • Sabine 1.1
      25 April 2020 at 10:36 am

      Kids were already put in cages under President Bush. Gitmo came via President Bush.

      Not a fan of Obama, but it needs to be said that during Obama he was taken to court and he had to stop the shit he was doing for most part. Currently non of that is happening, in fact the courts now are filled with Justices who will never rule against King Trump.

      You could go on and on with examples of mendacity and stupidity, but please show us where Obama was ever a danger to the US and the World by becoming an autocratic theocratic (evangelic fundamentalism is no better then fundamentalistic islam or fundamentalistic orthodix christianity to name just two) armed with nuclear weapons that the hostage taker, the blackmailer in chief would use and chances are will use at some stage during his or Jarvankas reign.

      Because Obama did not cancel elections, did not surround himself with acting this and that to overcome oversight, did not gut every department and staffed it with ass kissing toadies inclusive the pentagon.

      the orange dipshit however is doing all of this, inclusive telling people to drink chlorine in order to 'kill' the virus.

      there is mendacity, and then there is outright sadism. And trump is a sadist who gets of on the suffering of others, it makes him feel potent.

      • bill 1.1.1
        25 April 2020 at 11:23 am

        I wasn't aware that Bush also placed children at the Mexican border in cages, which…well, if your going to cast someone as an "autocratic theocrat", then all debate ceases because the problem is simply that there is an autocratic theocrat.

        Trump is symptomatic of a deep malaise within the political culture or body of US politics. He was one possible natural extension of US politics. He didn't have to usurp any pre 2016 order to become President, and institutional influences have kept him trucking along within the confines and general direction of 'acceptably vile'.

        Basically, from an establishment perspective, Trump's only "crime" is his failure to present the public with a facade that's good enough to mask the horrific reality of the political system he's a figure head of.

        The ridiculous hashtag resistance of a Democratic Party that has given his Administration everything it's asked for (and sometimes more than it's asked for) is – at least for some of us – evidence enough of that.

        Extra surveillance powers? No problem. Expand an already bloated military budget? No problem. Set up a $4 trillion slush fund for corporate America? No problem. Want to execute coups, install blockades, lay down sanctions? No problem.(There's probably an extensive list of "you gotta be kidding me" items somewhere within a google search)

        Meanwhile, we're to take the po-faced claims of the Democratic Party and sections of US Intelligence that he's "in bed with the Russians" seriously?!?!

        The guy's a dripping snot of vile sitting atop a heaving glob of vile called US politics. He's a symptom, not the problem.

        Put in a Biden or a Cuomo and the general direction of travel of US politics will not alter.

        • AB 1.1.1.1
          25 April 2020 at 1:02 pm

          "Put in a Biden or a Cuomo and the general direction of travel of US politics will not alter."

          Yes – and it needs to be said, repeatedly.

          But a "general direction" does imply that there's a difference in the particulars. And on that basis it's a reasonable argument to say that a Trump admin would cause greater aggregate human suffering in the short-term than a Biden one. Plus it seems likely that a Trump admin would do more structural damage to American democracy through court-stacking, voter-suppression, etc., Also I think one could argue strategically, that a neo-liberal Biden admin will be easier to fight than a neo-fascist Trump admin, with the latter having the support of some very dark forces indeed.

          • bill 1.1.1.1.1
            25 April 2020 at 2:32 pm

            Yup. There are certainly differences in the detail. And there are arguments to be made over the precise location, nature and/or likely effects of those differences.

            Though arguably, that might amount to no more than haranguing one another on whether we would be better off with chocolate icing or vanilla icing on that there strychnine loaded sponge cake.

            • woodart 1.1.1.1.1.1
              25 April 2020 at 4:03 pm

              whataboutism is bollocks ,and should be ignored. its pure deflection of the worst sort

            • McFlock 1.1.1.1.1.2
              25 April 2020 at 5:30 pm

              Aggregate human suffering isn't a detail. Minimising it is the job of leaders.

              Obama kept families together and prioritised them for processing and release. The current regime takes children away from parents with no intention of ever reuinting them. That's a big fucking detail, and one of many.

              • bill …
                25 April 2020 at 8:31 pm

                Aggregate human suffering isn't a detail. Minimising it is the job of leaders.

                Seems you somehow missed – there are arguments to be made over the precise location, nature and/or likely effects of those differences.

                • McFlock …
                  25 April 2020 at 9:26 pm

                  I saw it as a pathetic distancing statement from 50,000 (and counting) deaths.

                  I saw it as a thin veneer of abstraction over the thousands of detainees who have caught covid while in the "care" of the state.

                  Because the differences between the current oaf and any competent leader (evcn a leader who fails to meet your political or moral satsifaction) does not require much precision to detect.

                  Most people need to distance themselves to get an abstraction imprecise enough to pretend even close equivalence. Sometimes it seems to be such a great distance that they're on another planet.

                  But the commenter who can argue dolt45's equivalence (or even superiority) using particular examples? That's a unicorn, right there.

                  • adam …
                    26 April 2020 at 12:11 am

                    From the guy who happy to write off the deaths of of hundreds of thousands, becasue the US state department has increased sanctions.

                    wift of…

    • Gabby 1.2
      25 April 2020 at 10:51 am

      He is so bad and then some, regardless of how shitty anyone else is.

    • weka 1.3
      25 April 2020 at 11:04 am

      Your comment is classic 'Trump's not so bad'. As far as I can tell, this position only works if one believes that the US isn't on a distinct and clear path of establishing a form of fascist state as we speak. It's not about mendacity and stupidity. As you say, there's plenty of that in the world. It's about what happens when people lose the ability to resist that or effect positive change, because of how the state and society are transformed to be controlled in an authoritarian way. It's also about how left and moderate right wing narratives that minimise this are part of the process of enabling it.

      • bill 1.3.1
        25 April 2020 at 11:43 am

        I'm not saying 'Trump's not so bad". I'm saying he's a natural product of US politics. Maybe your comment is born from a perspective that would suggest the US political economy isn't so bad afterall? A perspective that can only be maintained by casting Trump as an aberration?

        "…when people lose the ability to resist that or effect positive change, because of how the state and society are transformed to be controlled in an authoritarian way"

        Well, various degrees and methods of silencing dissent goes a long way on that front – eg, from the jailing of the likes of Assange and Manning, to the marginalisation of independent journalists like Greenwald, Blumenthal et al.

        Throw in the pushing of co-ordinated and well oiled hoaxes and false narratives from Russiagate to Syria and China…and yeah – authoritarianism (or at least a fading ability to hold things up to sensible scrutiny) is kind of already here.

  2. Sabine 2
    25 April 2020 at 10:30 am

    What about her emails tho?

    and what about that doctor who sits there and does nothing?

    • weka 2.1
      25 April 2020 at 10:57 am

      Yeah, I'm really curious about her now. Like what must be going on in her head and heart to be able to do that. Presumably she supports Trump and/or the Republicans or she wouldn't have taken the job, but you'd have to have some kind of weird internal wrangling to keep any semblance of normal in that situation. Otoh, lots of people in the administration don't last a normal length of time in their jobs.

      What about her emails, lol, that's another whole set of mental wrangling.

      • Anne 2.1.1
        25 April 2020 at 11:22 am

        Good summation weka. When John Cleese was describing the Dunning Kruger Effect he had no idea how prescient he was :

        Slightly off-topic but I picked this up on the RNZ live feed:

        Political and business leaders from around the world have launched an initiative to speed up the development of ways to treat and cure Covid-19.

        The head of the World Health Organisation, Tedros Ghebreyesus, says this is a landmark collaboration and stressed everybody should have access to the new treatments.

        Dr Tedros says the shared commitment is to ensure all people have all the tools to defeat Covid-19 .

        The United States has declined to take part in the initiative.

        – BBC

        Well, the corollary of that is: if they do find a successful treatment and cure for Covid 19 then the US shouldn’t get it. But they will and Trump will claim it was his initiative.

  3. martyn sadler 3
    25 April 2020 at 11:00 am

    If the distraction has to be as big as injecting bleach, then distance from hydroxychloroquine might be more important than it looks. The vulture capitalists are circling and they're all pushing contact tracing. Couple this with fox news promoting a medicine in the same environment as encouraging their gun totting pro life viewers to give up their lives for the economy and it looks like a trojon horset for cambridge analytica 0.2, and the distance is to protect the client, Larry Ellison? The placebo might not have been worth the gamble, but I can't see the "data miners" of "the new oil" giving up. But surely showing your invisible face shows how desperate the race is. They all just want to help, we are all friends, aren't we?

  4. Alice Tectonite 4
    25 April 2020 at 11:16 am

    …deny reality and our own perceptions in favour of an authoritarian narrative.

    2 + 2 = 5

  5. Peter 5
    25 April 2020 at 11:16 am

    As bizarre as events were to watch as they unfolded at the White House briefing as they happened, the subsequent events are even more so.

    The behind the scenes talk that went on after the press conference yesterday would have been amazing to witness.

    Trump is envious of the absolute power Kim Jong Un has. In Kim's world the underlings must walk around as if over hummingbird eggs. One broken and you're dead. Not one fibre in your body would even consider questioning or contradicting the boss.

    Being done away with might be more metaphorical in Washington but the wielding of power is the same as is the obeisance, obedience and fear.

    There is, always has been and always will be mendacity and stupidity from people in positions of authority. This effort though is gold medal standard although maybe it is just that it gets to be highlighted by the immediacy of media coverage.

    Then again we'll soon hear it didn't happen or didn't happen in certain ways and on being told the fact, that it's 'fake news' some will believe Trump.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPxct29FqD0

  7. Ad 7
    25 April 2020 at 11:24 am

    While the United States' leadership failure has generated the worst-ever health crisis for 330 million Americans, the World Health Organisation is doing what it shoudl do and pulling together the international effort for cures and vaccines:

    https://www.who.int/news-room/detail/24-04-2020-commitment-and-call-to-action-global-collaboration-to-accelerate-new-covid-19-health-technologies

    The leaders who came together at a virtual event, co-hosted by the World Health Organization, included:

    – President of France

    – President of the European Commission

    – Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation

    – UN Secretary General

    – AU Commission Chairperson

    – G20 President

    – Heads of state of France, South Africa, Germany, Vietnam, Costa Rica, Italy, Rwanda, Norway, Spain, Malaysia and the UK (represented by the First Secretary of State).

    Also bunches of other relevant NGOs and corporations including the Coalition for Epidemic Preparedness Innovations (CEPI), GAVI-the Vaccine Alliance, the Global Fund, UNITAID, the Wellcome Trust, the International Red Cross and Red Crescent Movement (IFRC), the International Federation of Pharmaceutical Manufacturers (IFPMA), the Developing Countries Vaccine Manufacturers’ Network (DCVMN), and the International Generic and Biosimilar Medicines Association (IGBA), Ngozi Okonjo-Iweala, Gavi Board Chair and Sir Andrew Witty, former CEO of GlaxoSmithKline.

    Notably both US and China reps not participating.

    Still great to see the remains of international cooperation and cohesion still being useful.

    • weka 7.1
      25 April 2020 at 11:26 am

      What do you make of China not participating?

      • Ad 7.1.1
        25 April 2020 at 11:41 am

        Just idiots. They are doing big diplomatic moves right across the world. They are so vulnerable to global opinion at the moment.

        • Graeme 7.1.1.1
          25 April 2020 at 12:35 pm

          Or, along with the US, kept out, or were kept out, of the public view to avoid being a distraction and turning the thing into a China / US recrimination show.

    • bill 7.2
      25 April 2020 at 2:47 pm

      Dunno quite where you got that list from Ad.

      The initial core group was (from the link you provided) BMGF, CEPI, Gavi, Global Fund, UNITAID, Wellcome Trust, WHO.

      In links from that page, there is mention made of the input from Beijing Institute of Biotechnology and the Beijing Institute of Biological Products as well as the Wuhan Institute of Biological Products.

      Not quite "non-participation".

      • Ad 7.2.1
        25 April 2020 at 3:17 pm

        My list was in the link provided.

        I hadn't seen that other link, and am very pleased to see Chinese institutions participating. In fact I’m just delighted to be corrected on this one.

        The glaring absence is the United States. The Trump and Pompeo denial of co-operation with and funding for the WHO got even more stark.

        https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/04/pompeo-restore-funds-200423204040978.html

        • bill 7.2.1.1
          25 April 2020 at 3:31 pm

          Still not seeing it, but hey.

          There's also been some calls from the UK that might be interpreted as suggestions to by-pass or duplicate WHO. As for the US looking to fuck UN bodies, lamentable as it is, it isn't anything new.

          • Ad 7.2.1.1.1
            25 April 2020 at 4:17 pm

            President Trump is far more destructive to UN and multilateral relations than President Obama was.

            • RedLogix 7.2.1.1.1.1
              25 April 2020 at 4:54 pm

              Clinton, GW and Obama all neglected to give US Foreign policy any overarching direction or purpose. As a result key alliances weakened and opportunities to solve problems were wasted.

              Trump has taken a wrecking ball to what remained.

              It's not obvious however that the world which remains is in a position to repair the damage.

              • Ad …
                25 April 2020 at 5:39 pm

                Oh horseshit.

                "Direction or purpose" was different for each, but that's what they're elected and expected to be.

                Compared to Trump, Clinton and Obama engaged hard and substantively with other countries and formed strong alliances and agreements. Don't have to always like them, but they were huge. And anyone can do a laundry list of failures, but let's remember their successes as well.

                President Clinton negotiated NAFTA. A pretty groundbreaking trade agreement. He drove that because having been educated at the Georgetown School of Foreign Service, he viewed multilateral trade agreements as massive forces of international cohesion. He called it the "doctrine of enlargement" – the doctrine of expanding the number of strength of market democracies around the world.

                He pushed a big revision of the General Agreement of Tariffs and Trade through Congress.

                He persuaded Russia to withdraw troops from the Baltic states.

                He helped broker peace between Ireland, the UK, and Sinn Feinn through his emissary.

                He facilitated pretty useful negotiations between Israel and Palestinians.

                He supported NATO often and well, particularly in the post-Yugoslav disaster. In fact NATO expanded to include Poland, Hungary, and the Czech Republic because he pushed it.

                He propped up Boris Yeltsin through the UMF bailout. In fact through the Nunn-Lugar Act achieved the incredible feat of actively working with its otherwise sworn enemy in Russia to ensure the safe dismantling of nuclear weapons and safeguarding nuclear power generators. Prior to Clinton a nuclear war exchange between the two was absolutely real.

                Anyone remember the Treaty on the Non-Proliferatio nfo Nuclear Weapons? Clinton.

                Anyone remember the Agreed Framework with North Korea (stuffed up by the following President? Clinton.

                In fact with Clinton the US took to hand the most nettlesome human rights interventions. By June 1999 he had supported the UN strongly to five major new operations, and through US funding and US deployment increased UN forces in the field to 40,000 troops.

                Plenty of failures, sure, but he had pretty clear direction for foreign policy.

                I could have done the same with the Obama regime, but you get the idea.

                Don't go painting US Presidencies with a house brush until they all look the same colour. The Trump Presidency is a fundamental and massive breach of US international engagement the likes of which we have not seen in a century.

                • RedLogix …
                  25 April 2020 at 6:04 pm

                  I have to respect such a comprehensive response; you are right it's not accurate to paint all Presidents with the same brush.

                  In my defense I was outlining a broad trends; certainly in the 90's during Clinton's era the US was still highly engaged in the wider world and absolutely Clinton was very good at responding to events as they arose. Another important initiative Clinton was involved in was the transformation of the internet from a US military tool into the global network it is today.

                  Prior to the end of the Cold War the US had one clear overarching goal, contain the Soviets. And they did with remarkable success. After this they never really stopped to ask themselves 'what next?' In some quarters we heard high minded hopefulness about a 'peace dividend', but even that had a primarily domestic focus.

                  I guess my thesis comes to this, when the Iron Curtain fell the USA had this once only opportunity to take the global alliance they had cobbled together and take it to the next level. Instead they coasted on the considerable momentum they'd created for 30 more years. Now Trump has spiked the tyres and slammed on the brakes.

                  • Ad …
                    25 April 2020 at 6:07 pm

                    Yeah fully agree with that generally. Same applies to the left.
                    If you were a lower order of commentator like that dick Morrissey I wouldn’t have bothered. You’re worth it.

            • RedLogix 7.2.1.1.1.2
              25 April 2020 at 5:28 pm

              The good news is that finally most of the world's nations have finally woken up to the blunt truth that no country can solve this crisis entirely on their own.

              Sadly it's taken all of 12 weeks for them to realise this.

              The US never really aspired to be a great power, it accidentally found itself in that role and was never comfortable in it. They were the country founded against empire, and the isolationist faction has always been strong. Trump has merely energised them.

              • Ad …
                25 April 2020 at 5:51 pm

                I can't think of a US President before George H. W. Bush that didn't aspire to moral leadership of the entire world. They started with an empire of ideas and added hard power to it.

                Franklin Roosevelt and the New Deal, and allied leadership in the second half of WW2.

                Truman and the Marshall Plan, and formation of the UN and a bunch of other global institutions

                Eisenhower protecting the rest of us from communist invasion, often successfully.

                Here's Kennedy going all out, actually forging a way out of the Cold War if the military would let him.

                https://www.jfklibrary.org/archives/other-resources/john-f-kennedy-speeches/united-nations-19630920

                Nixon (!) reaching out to China.

                Each in their own way believed they had a specific moral imperative to lead the world according to American interests. They would not have been elected if they didn't (LBJ excluded of course).

                In the course of living memory they have aspired to both moral power and military power, economic power and multilateral power. They got there because they wanted it.

                • RedLogix …
                  25 April 2020 at 7:04 pm

                  They got there because they wanted it.

                  Well certainly the 'National Security/Business' faction did for a long time. But both factions are now adrift in the political scene; neither as clearly attached to the Republicans as once could be presumed.

                  Albright would be an senior figure in this faction:

                  https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-04-24/coronvirus-madeleine-albright-calls-for-cooperation-china-us/12176496

                  That's largely why Trump as been able to so comprehensively trash the US global network and encounter so little pushback from within his own party.

                  The really interesting question is going to be … will the Democrats pull these floating groups across into their alliance? Certainly HC looked like she was on track to do this; yet in doing so she alienated other factions of the Democrat party.

                • Poission …
                  25 April 2020 at 7:10 pm

                  Eisenhower protecting the rest of us from communist invasion, often successfully.

                  The Government of the United States approaches this conference with hopeful sincerity. We will bend every effort of our minds to the single purpose of emerging from that conference with tangible results towards peace, the only true way of lessening international tension.

                  We never have, and never will, propose or suggest that the Soviet Union surrender what rightly belongs to it. We will never say that the peoples of the USSR are an enemy with whom we have no desire ever to deal or mingle in friendly and fruitful relationship.

                  On the contrary, we hope that this coming conference may initiate a relationship with the Soviet Union which will eventually bring about a freer mingling of the peoples of the East and of the West – the one sure, human way of developing the understanding required for confident and peaceful relations.

                  Eisenhower atoms for peace speech

                  https://www.iaea.org/about/history/atoms-for-peace-speech

      • Incognito 8.1.1
        25 April 2020 at 12:27 pm

        Yet Hydroxychloroquine is used as a major covid treatment worldwide.

        This is complete misunderstanding and misinterpretation! Why are you making up BS?

        • mauī 8.1.1.1
          25 April 2020 at 1:06 pm

          I'm not making things up, I'm going by the link.

          "Sermo’s COVID-19 Real Time Barometer observational study polled over 20,000 expert physicians in 30 countries, including the United States, Canada, United Kingdom, France, Brazil, Russia, China, Japan and Australia. "

          • Incognito 8.1.1.1.1
            25 April 2020 at 1:30 pm

            You uncritically parrot the findings of a poll and you seem to imply that HCQ is effective. Did you look at the underlying data in their Barometer?

            Do you think UV and bleach treatments are effective to against COVID-19? How is HCQ relevant to treatment with bleach? Sounds like whataboutery to me.

            • mauī 8.1.1.1.1.1
              25 April 2020 at 2:10 pm

              Sounds like I'm being asked for my papers and if I'm carrying the official HCQ text book.

              • Rosemary McDonald …
                25 April 2020 at 2:22 pm

                Maui. Hydroxychloroquine was used back when as one of the tools in the tool box for SARS…if memory serves.

                I can't link from my phone to the papers from back then…but they are there. 😉

                Two points…if any other person had suggested hydroxychloroquine as a potential treatment it would not have provoked such a torrent of derision.

                I simply do not understand why it was acceptable to the pharmacological experts here on TS for hydroxychloroquine to have been used off label as a treatment for lupus and the like but somehow it is simply ludicrous to even suggest trying it for Covid 19.

                Oh that's right…fucking Trump talked about it.

                • Incognito …
                  25 April 2020 at 2:58 pm

                  It is not ludicrous to suggest that HCQ could or even might be effective against COVID-19. This is exactly what tens of trials and many more scientific studies are trying to address now. So, that’s a red herring.

                  However, it is ludicrous to say that it is effective and tout as some kind of magic bullet. Doesn’t matter who says is although some should know better. So, that’s a red herring too.

                  Snake oil salesmen are always preying on the desperate, e.g. terminal cancer patients; SSDD.

                  Anyway, the OP was about Trump and bleach. Feel free to defend either or both, if you must.

                • lprent …
                  25 April 2020 at 4:58 pm

                  I simply do not understand why it was acceptable to the pharmacological experts here on TS for hydroxychloroquine to have been used off label as a treatment for lupus and the like but somehow it is simply ludicrous to even suggest trying it for Covid 19.

                  There is a probability balance. Most (and probably all) treatments have a probability of a adverse effect. So the first thing you have to show is that at the very least the probability of adverse effects is matched with a better probability of a beneficial effect.

                  The most common way of proving either is to do final testing between two populations, one receiving a placebo and the other a treatment at some level. I’ll skip the mechanics of how people decide the level apart from pointing out that it tends to waste a lot of cells and test animals.

                  Hydroxychloroquine has a known and tested adverse effect of causing arrhythmia in heart function and the types of heart attacks that causes. The probability is (by the sounds of it) pretty high. And even the small trial that was referenced by that murderous PR dickhead Sean Hannity only had a reported 100% no side-effect because the three people who had ICU level adverse effects from the hydroxychloroquine were removed from the trial. This was after the trial victims had been selected against the known probabilities of getting that adverse effect. Look it up – that was reported weeks ago.

                  That trial also only showed a minor probability of it providing a beneficial effect against covid-19.

                  It is used by lupus and other kinds of afflictions because there has been a demonstrated via robust and repeated testing of strong probability of a beneficial effect that outweighs the bad effects.

                  But going off and using it in a situation where the probabilities aren’t known is tantamount to just killing some people without a good reason. With the SARS experiments they were likely to have been using it as a last ditch defense on teh basis that the probabilities of survival from the infection were so low that any increased risk from a unproven treatment were outweighed.

                  However that wasn’t the usage that Hannity or Trump were suggesting that when it should be used.

                  Does that help explain why there is a quite a lot of dislike here and just about everywhere amongst people who have medical or science based backgrounds of the way that Hydroxychloroquine was touted as a no risk cure? I can tell you as a former army medic my first instinct when I saw Trump promoting it and saying ‘where the harm’ was to think that he’d be the best test subject himself. However I suspect that he’d have orders for him to never get near the stuff – from what I understand he’d be high on the risk factors for it to cause arrhythmia.

                  Incidentally my mother had a bad case of arrhythmia between the ventricles of her heart for many years. I wouldn’t recommend it for anyone if they want to have a good life. Eventually it got bad enough that the probabilities favoured a radical treatment. They went into the heart and fried the timing nerves in one ventricle to removed the bad time signal. She was lucky enough to recover ok and got a quite a few more good years from it with some issues. It may have eventually killed her indirectly from the drug cocktail that was required to maintain function.

                  But that is part of the probability tradeoffs as well. As a former nurse, she went into that with her eyes wide open about the risks.

              • Incognito …
                25 April 2020 at 2:57 pm

                Let me simplify it for you:

                1. Did you look at the Barometer in the link?
                2. Do you think HCQ treatment is effective against COVID-19?
                3. What is connection between HCQ and bleach in the OP?
                4. Do you think bleach or UV treatments are effective against COVID-19?
                5. Why did you post that link?

                None of these questions requires a textbook or expert knowledge so that’s a red herring. Only Q5 is an open question but please keep it under 280 characters if you can.

            • bill 8.1.1.1.1.2
              25 April 2020 at 3:46 pm

              Sunshine being the best disinfectant Incognito – so of course we should mainline a facsimile of the stuff! 🙂

          • Alice Tectonite 8.1.1.1.2
            25 April 2020 at 2:10 pm

            Hydroxychloroquine is being touted as a possible COVID-19 treatment largely based on a single study: Gautret et al (2020). Despite passing peer review, serious concerns have since been raised about the content, ethics and peer review process (ISAC & Elsevier 2020). Gautret et al (2020) is now undergoing further independent peer review. Magagnoli et al (in review) (& references therein) raise doubts as to the effectiveness of Hydroxychloroquine. Quoting their conclusion:

            In this study, we found no evidence that use of hydroxychloroquine, either with or without azithromycin, reduced the risk of mechanical ventilation in patients hospitalized with Covid-19. An association of increased overall mortality was identified in patients treated with hydroxychloroquine alone. These findings highlight the importance of awaiting the results of ongoing prospective, randomized, controlled studies before widespread adoption of these drugs.

            Not conclusive, but an indication it should not be being rolled out all over the place. (Also Gautret et al (2020) describe their results as 'preliminary' in their discussion, which suggests treat with caution…)

            References

            • Rosemary McDonald 8.1.1.1.2.1
              25 April 2020 at 2:24 pm

              Seems your search resulted in papers only published/released for discussion in the last few months.

              Look back further.😉

              • Alice Tectonite …
                25 April 2020 at 2:57 pm

                Yeah, probably could've worded that better. The Gautret et al paper seems to have been/is influential in the hyping going on. Basically the small scale studies aren't conclusive either way and need the results of larger trials now underway. The paper in review hints at some potential problems, but again a small sample. Agree that trials are not being done for no reason and have some basis in previous work.

                Anyway, doing too much research starts to look like work (read plenty of science papers usually, just not medical ones). Don't have the background for the nitty gritty detail of medical stuff either (I'm in quite a different field).

      • joe90 8.1.2
        25 April 2020 at 12:44 pm

        A data-mining outfit that makes it's living flogging information to big pharma?

        Say it ain't so!

        /

        In 2011, a member of the SERMO team, Thomas Rhines, tweeted that as well as research, SERMO “listen[s] to the physicians’ conversations to mine business and competitive intel”. SERMO users took to Twitter voicing their surprise and outrage.

        Dr Mark Ryan, a US doctor based in Richmond, Virginia, said on Twitter: “@SermoTeam could have been useful; lack of moderation/professional behaviour limits appeal; data mining kills it for me.”

        Other doctors also went online to voice their concerns with SERMO’s conversation mining, with New York doctor Jay Parkinson writing on his blog: “They are spreading their propaganda and spying on us in order to sell more me-too drugs … I already am a member but I don’t use it because I feel like some filthy voyeur is watching me.

        http://medicalrepublic.com.au/sermo-can-trust/2717

      • Andre 8.1.3
        25 April 2020 at 1:59 pm

        Yo maui, what do you think of the idea of injecting disinfectant? Wanna try it yourself next time you get sick?

        What do think of the president of the US suggesting that as something to be seriously considered? As part of a nationally televised live briefing on the status of a pandemic that has killed tens of thousands of his citizens he is supposed to keep safe, no less.

  9. weka 9
    25 April 2020 at 12:03 pm

    I'm starting to wonder if there's a kind of social contagion of stupid. There's some evidence to suggest people's ability to use imagination is declining in recent decades. That coupled with stress and the general unraveling of civil society in places is a potent mix, especially for those in positions of power. Contagion might not be the right word, more like a cognitive/cultural syndrome that arises from specific conditions.

    https://twitter.com/nz_voter/status/1253786057859936256

    • joe90 9.1
      25 April 2020 at 12:12 pm

      Something to consider.

      Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The anti-Semites have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past.

      ― Jean Paul-Sartre

      • Incognito 9.1.1
        25 April 2020 at 12:22 pm

        yes

      • Morrissey 9.1.2
        25 April 2020 at 2:05 pm

        Very good quote, Joe, and true. Exactly the same things apply to those who make false accusations of anti-Semitism: people like Simon Bridges, who claimed that Jacinda Ardern's government was "anti-Semitic" because we did not send a representative to the Israeli-organized Holocaust Remembrance activites in Jerusalem a few months ago.

  10. Rosemary McDonald 10
    25 April 2020 at 12:19 pm

    After the Yanks elected Reagan…US politics became a joke.

    Having said that, we managed to re elect Clarke, and Key…despite evidence that no good would come of it.

    Trump's a twat. If only folks would ignore him.

    (Hardly a cinematic masterpiece, but "Idiocracy " must surely be compulsory Lockdown viewing?)

    • Mike Campbell 10.1
      25 April 2020 at 2:07 pm

      Thanks for showing we have morons in NZ to 🙁

      • In Vino 10.1.1
        25 April 2020 at 4:23 pm

        Self-revelation?

        Hint – if you are going to gratuitously insult someone's intelligence, you should try to get your own elementary spelling correct.

  11. Incognito 11
    25 April 2020 at 12:19 pm

    Trump is not just science illiterate and proud of it, wearing it like a badge of honour. He’s openly anti-science, just like Stephen Harper in Canada, because it doesn’t suit his narrative.

    For Trump, everything is binary, and he creates a leverage-advantage point from everything that doesn’t work in his favour, like a martial arts master uses their opponent’s momentum to imbalance and neutralise them. Trump pushes off against resistance against him; it makes him stronger. I don’t even think he does it consciously, that he thinks much about it. It is almost instinctive behaviour with him. And he loves it!

    • Rosemary McDonald 11.1
      25 April 2020 at 1:13 pm

      "…makes him stronger. "

      So, there's a very strange kind of genius in his idiocy?

      However, I honestly do think that if Trump fronted the press mob tomorrow and declared that "…eating fresh fruit and vegetables will help support your immune system. " sales of the same would plummet within hours.

      The entire nation would become exclusively carnivorous.

  12. Cinny 12
    25 April 2020 at 12:24 pm

    The most irresponsible leader 'murica has ever had.

    https://twitter.com/AnnaESanders/status/1253818333243355136

  13. mac1 13
    25 April 2020 at 12:25 pm

    The man has just said he was being 'sarcastic' according to RNZ midday news.. He can't even withdraw a statement without trying to save face.

    The old Ron Ziegler line in 1973 as Nixon's press secretary almost would have been preferable. "This is the operative statement. The others are inoperative."

  14. joe90 14
    25 April 2020 at 12:31 pm

    Much is being made of Dr Birx’s body language, but I’m sitting here wondering why the fuck she doesn’t get up and walk out

    I suspect Dr Birx is a Granfalloon.

    https://twitter.com/Acyn/status/1253786652234747904

    And ever since, slathering on the "independent" clown make-up t escape accountability for all the monstrous shit they routinely say and do has been the average Republican's all-occasion go-to move, which is why it will also come as no surprise that Republican COVIDIOTS are trying to run the same old play.

    […]

    So I'll end this post the same way I ended my column from 2009:

    Most newly minted “independents” seem to be little more than Republicans who are fleeing the scene of their crime, but at the same time still desperately want believe in the inerrant wisdom of Rush Limbaugh. They are completely incapable of facing the horrifying reality that they have gotten every single major political opinion and decision of their adult lives completely wrong, so instead they double-down on their hatred of women and/or gays and/or brown people and/or Liberals, and blame them for the miserable fuckpit their leaders and their policies have made of their lives and futures.

    Like German soldiers after the fall of Berlin, they have stopped running away from the catastrophe they created only long enough to burn their uniforms…

    https://driftglass.blogspot.com/2020/04/the-return-of-independent-granfalloon.html

    • Incognito 14.1
      25 April 2020 at 12:51 pm

      I suspect it is some warped version of the Peter Principle in which career professionals and experts find themselves thrust into a place/position that can only be described as ‘being in the wrong place at the wrong time’. Some would say similar things about ‘Uncle Ashley’ as said about Dr Birx or Dr Fauci, for that matter.

      • McFlock 14.1.1
        25 April 2020 at 6:10 pm

        More like workplace Darwinism – the people most suited to that workplace are the ones who spent decades in the field as specialists but can still listen to the bullshit that comes out of his mouth without openly mocking him or having an urge to correct his lethal stupidity.

        I suggest that NZ's caseload at least partially reflects some level of competence in the leadership, including Bloomfield.

        • Incognito 14.1.1.1
          25 April 2020 at 9:29 pm

          Fair comment, but to paraphrase Lynn, it is mostly (due to) luck or bad luck.

          • McFlock 14.1.1.1.1
            25 April 2020 at 9:51 pm

            Mostly. And yet we have very few bleach or fishtank-cleaner poisonings after our leader does a press conference.

  15. joe90 15
    25 April 2020 at 1:28 pm

    A cruel, heartless, soulless regime.

    But Democrats!

    White House officials are hotly debating whether and how to propose a “liability shield” that would prevent businesses from being sued by customers who contract the coronavirus, according to four people aware of the internal planning effort, as the administration seeks to encourage businesses to reopen without fear of being hit by lawsuits.

    Attorneys in the White House Counsel’s Office are reviewing the matter, but some administration officials have raised objections to the idea, including whether it would expose the federal government to legal claims, according to two of the people, who spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss internal deliberations. Some White House advisers also have expressed concern that the plan might provoke a political firestorm.

    http://archive.li/spT3e (WaPo)

  16. Foreign waka 16
    25 April 2020 at 1:39 pm

    The leader of the "free" (really?) world advises to inject disinfect.

    What concerns me is, that the people of the US might actually believe him. A very scary thought as it would mean some kind of evolutionary backward step has happened right in front of the world community.

    Will disinfectant be getting short on supply? If so, its a true measure of the situation.

  17. Ad 17
    25 April 2020 at 5:57 pm

    I am looking forward to President Biden putting the entire Trump family and most of Donald's family on trial and in jail.

    The deaths of 52,000 people (and counting) are on his hands through utter mismanagement.

    There must be a special category of criminal negligence for his mismanagement.

    • McFlock 17.1
      25 April 2020 at 6:58 pm

      It's a lovely thought, but so many variables along the way – starting with a Biden victory.

    • Andre 17.2
      25 April 2020 at 7:02 pm

      I just can't see Biden having any part of attempting to hold Oranga bin Frauden accountable. It would just be too politically divisive. Biden's whole brand is built on empathy and bringing people together and working with all sides and warm fuzzies like that.

      New York state on the other hand …

  18. Ad 18
    25 April 2020 at 6:06 pm

    Great to see COVID-19 protesters piling body bags outside of the Washington DC Trump International Hotel. Sure it's only a symbol and he doesn't own it ,but symbols have punch if displayed well.

    https://www.huffpost.com/entry/protest-body-bags-trump-dc-hotel_n_5ea3097ec5b669fd89240d36

    At 52,000 and rising the main should be in jail.

  19. A 19
    25 April 2020 at 6:46 pm

    This is not what he said. And FYI it's one good reason not to donate to any media that reports it this way.

    Info correcting this is being scrubbed from the web, including a tweet I sent out. Unfreaking believable.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/world/americas/121275340/coronavirus-disinfectant-riff-is-latest-of-many-trump-science-clashes

    • Andre 19.1
      25 April 2020 at 6:53 pm

      Oh indeed?

      Care to advise us of exactly where the inaccuracy is, and what should be in its place?

      Are you giving us that link as an example of allegedly accurate or allegedly inaccurate reporting?

    • weka 19.2
      25 April 2020 at 10:16 pm

      "This is not what he said"

      What is not what he said? There are two videos showing what he said. If the Independent quotes are inaccurate, please correct with back up.

    • Cinny 19.3
      26 April 2020 at 9:12 am

      Supposedly we hit the body with a tremendous, whether it’s ultraviolet or just very powerful light, and I think you said that hasn’t been checked, but you’re going to test it.

      And then I said supposing you brought the light inside the body, which you can do either through the skin or in some other way. And I think you said you’re going to test that too. Sounds interesting, right?

      And then I see the disinfectant, where it knocks it out in one minute.

      And is there a way we can do something like that by injection inside or almost a cleaning because you see it gets in the lungs and it does a tremendous number on the lungs, so it’d be interesting to check that so that you’re going to have to use medical doctors with, but it sounds interesting to me.

  21. infused 21
    25 April 2020 at 9:18 pm

    might want to see the original vs edited text

  22. adam 22
    26 April 2020 at 12:06 am

    Why day in day out is it a parade on trump?

    Yet you are attacked here constantly if you point what is fundamentally wrong with a system which invest so much power, effort and money fighting wars at the expense of their own citizens. A system which has handed a muppet more power than King George the Third. A government which has no effective opposition, and when asked gives out every cent to the muppet to fight wars.

    Finally, why are there no questions asked of the whole elite class who have failed utterly. They are unfit to rule, and moreover unfit to even be part of civil society.

    To weka, have a look at this earlier muppet that the US threw up in the role of president. James Buchanan he still has the 620,000 deaths on his hands, so trump is still trailing this muppet. Learn some history, and get some perspective the muppet trump is one in a long muppets who have held a executive position – the problem now is the US constitution has lost much of its power and the person in that executive position can now kill on a wim.

    • weka 22.1
      26 April 2020 at 10:40 am

      1. it's not a parade day in and day out of Trump. There's only two posts under that category for April.

      2. it's not the system analysis that is the problem, it's the 'Trump's not so bad' framing.

      3. I have class analysis. I disagree with pretty much everyone across the political spectrum at some point. In terms of your arguments, I find the inability to engage with critique of your own politics problematic. I get that you are outnumbered here by the centre-lefties, but I'm not that and I still find it hard to engage with what you bring here because of how you bring it. My primary interest is in politics outside the L/R spectrum, including how to move past macho politics at the commentariat level. I am also interested in the rise of fascism globally. I have no doubt that your politics and my politics intersect in important and interesting ways that could be the basis of a useful conversation. I'm not going to bother if it's antagonistic though, which is probably why you get left to argue with the commenters who do want an antagonistic fight. I'm also reluctant to engage with people who are convinced they are right and others are wrong.

      4. Please don't tell me what to do, and don't patronise me. I know that Trump is part of a bigger system, and I have an analysis of that too. The post isn't about that though, it's about something else that you haven't even acknowledged in your comment, let alone addressed.

      If you have a problem with the content of this site, my suggestion is you write a guest post. If you can write one that doesn't flame the commentariat (ie focus on the politics you are expressing here about the US situation rather than attacking lefties), I will put it up and moderate the comments to keep the conversation reasonable.

  23. RedLogix 23
    26 April 2020 at 8:31 am

    The thing I hate about these threads is that eventually I go away and listen to what Trump actually said and find myself defending something I really don't want to.

    At no point did Trump suggest "injecting with bleach" as the title of the OP claims.

    The context he was clearly speaking in (as clearly as he ever gets) was the possible use of powerful UV light used to 'disinfect' the body from this virus. And apparently this a reasonable type of treatment being investigated.

    Being the chaotic goat of a man he is however, his verbal grammar was ambiguous and this has been exploited to the max.

    Zero credibility points all round.

    • Andre 23.1
      26 April 2020 at 9:18 am

      The exact words that Dim Dotardashian used were “I see the disinfectant that knocks it out in a minute, one minute. And is there a way we can do something like that by injection inside or almost a cleaning,”

      A fuller exploration of the context: https://www.politifact.com/article/2020/apr/24/context-what-donald-trump-said-about-disinfectant-/

      So no, Odious Maximus did not use the exact words "inject bleach". He suggested disinfectant, a broad group of chemicals which includes bleach. He did suggest applying it "by injection inside". So "inject bleach" is just a single example of a broad spectrum of ways of administering disinfectant internally that could be reasonably inferred from Danger Yam's comment. And that entire broad spectrum is dangerous and stupid. We can be confident this part of his rambling was about chemicals, because it follows on from a briefing he had just received about the effectiveness of chemicals on hard surfaces.

      If there were more sophisticated thoughts behind the comment, or nuance that failed to get expressed, it's interesting the clean-up effort didn't attempt that route. Press Secretary MaccaNinny tried to gaslight that Prima Donald was all about getting people to consult with their doctor and that the press took his comments out of context (narrator: he wasn't and they didn't), and was promptly chopped off at the knees by COVID Orange trying to bullshit that he was being sarcastic (narrator: he wasn't).

      https://www.salon.com/2020/04/25/white-house-press-secretary-mocked-after-she-gets-contradicted-by-trump-about-injecting-disinfectant_partner/

      • McFlock 23.1.1
        26 April 2020 at 9:29 am

        Another check on it.

        Dolt45 was attempting to summarise what he remembered from the briefing immediately prior, which included heat, light, bleach, and alcohol. Bless his polyester socks.

      • RedLogix 23.1.2
        26 April 2020 at 9:39 am

        Quote the entire context and it's clear he's got UV 'disinfection' in mind. A much more reasonable idea … if totally unproven.

        So "inject bleach" is just a single example of a broad spectrum of ways of administering disinfectant internally that could be reasonably inferred from Danger Yam's comment.

        Yes he's muddled as usual, he's not making it clear exactly what form of treatment he's referring to at any instant. But the claim in the OP title is that he said the words "inject with bleach". That's clearly a highly selective distortion; 'reasonably inferred' my arse.

        No need for transcripts that can be selectively quoted, the video is readily available. Watch the few relevant minutes and you have the complete picture.

        • Andre 23.1.2.1
          26 April 2020 at 9:45 am

          And then I said supposing you brought the light inside the body, which you can do either through the skin or in some other way. And I think you said you’re going to test that too. Sounds interesting, right?

          And then I see the disinfectant, where it knocks it out in one minute.

          And is there a way we can do something like that by injection inside or almost a cleaning because you see it gets in the lungs and it does a tremendous number on the lungs, so it’d be interesting to check that so that you’re going to have to use medical doctors with, but it sounds interesting to me.

          "And then I see the disinfectant" is clearly a move on from light to his next topic of chemical disinfectant. Which was also a topic in the briefing he had just been given by Bryan.

          • RedLogix 23.1.2.1.1
            26 April 2020 at 10:01 am

            I've seen this happen in my own field over and again when someone starts trying to convey or summarise ideas they're not expert with. They'll make context ambiguities like this quite unintentionally, especially when they're talking without structured notes.

            Yes he's got it muddled; but at no point does he use the words "Inject with bleach". Here's the video I listened to:

            https://twitter.com/joshtpm/status/1253451487415619586

            [“Yes he’s got it muddled; but at no point does he use the words “Inject with bleach””

            At no point did I put those words in quotation marks. The title is not a quote of Trump. It’s clear enough in the post what he said (both vid and MSM quoting), and my and many other people’s interpretation is clear too. People are free to argue the minutiae over what Trump meant, they can even defend Trump if they feel that’s appropriate given what the post was about, but it’s not ok to misrepresent my words or intention – weka]

            • weka 23.1.2.1.1.1
              26 April 2020 at 10:20 am

              mod note for you Red.

            • RedLogix 23.1.2.1.1.2
              26 April 2020 at 10:39 am

              OK so having established that Trump never said those words, nor even so much as used the word 'bleach' even, then it's clear that this entire post is based on an interpretation of what he may or may not have meant.

              Having watched the video I'd say that even Trump wasn't clear in his own mind what he was trying to say at that moment.

              Here's an ironic thought. What if by some crazy chance the idea of 'injecting' strong UV light (directly into the windpipe or lungs) turned out to be a useful 'disinfection' treatment? What would we have to say to that I wonder?

              People make mistakes all the time, especially when they're extemporising. Trump more often than most because his speech is typically more chaotic and unstructured than most politicians. Yes the ambiguity rated a correction; but did it rate the global shit-kicking the liberal left has visited on it?

              And in what kind of light does it cast us?

              • weka …
                26 April 2020 at 10:54 am

                "then it's clear that this entire post is based on an interpretation of what he may or may not have meant."

                No, it's not. The only way you will ever know what I was intending, and what I was thinking when I wrote the post, is if you ask. You're not the only one that has misunderstood the post, but I don't see the point in attributing your own mistaken interpretation of my post while trying to assert something about people mistaking Trump's words.

                • RedLogix …
                  26 April 2020 at 11:12 am

                  From your OP:

                  This is worth noting because ridiculing these people is about as effective as ridiculing redneck Trump voters and calling them deplorables. Many in the alt health crowd should be progressive/left wing but are being radicalised to the alt right.

                  Interesting, and I confess I missed that on first scanning. On reflection this is not too far from my own reaction to the comment thread here. Too many people using Trump's weak scientific understanding to ridicule and mock him. Which as you say serves all the wrong purposes.

                  As I said at the outset, I hate these kinds of threads and stayed away from it yesterday because I personally loath threads that are little more than lefties piling on in some weird virtue signalling ritual.

                  • arkie …
                    26 April 2020 at 11:38 am

                    because I personally loath threads that are little more than lefties piling on in some weird virtue signalling ritual.

                    You're not obligated to be advocatus diaboli in such situations.

                  • weka …
                    26 April 2020 at 11:39 am

                    My suggestion is that you reread the post carefully, because most of what I've seen you say here about it is off. As I said, you're not the only person that has missed what I was talking about, but I have no doubt you're not the only person who didn't read it properly either. Some if it might be too subtle, but that's the point of asking for clarification.

                    How any of us engage with the commentariat is another matter.

                  • KJT …
                    26 April 2020 at 12:52 pm

                    One of the good things about New Zealand culture, in my view, is how quickly we call BS, on pretentious stupidity, arrogance, and also ignorance..

                    The USA'ians with their exaggerated deference for wealth, and power, tend not to do that to their, "betters".

                    Call it "Piling on", if you like.

                    Even National supporters are getting pissed with Bridges tone deaf stupidity. Rightly so.

                    On ships and aircraft we have courses on "questioning your superiors actions" if you think they may be wrong. Necessary in many cultures because of their tradition of deference to authority. Not often a problem with New Zealanders. We are good at teamwork and mutual decision making.

                    Too much a power gap, between the person in charge and their subordinates, with too much authority given to one person, is a frequent cause of air and sea accidents.

                    Definitely the problem with Trump and his enablers, as we see, here.

                    • RedLogix …
                      26 April 2020 at 1:02 pm

                      Questioning, challenging is one thing. It's formally called "Crew Resource Management"

                      CRM training encompasses a wide range of knowledge, skills, and attitudes including communications, situational awareness, problem solving, decision making, and teamwork; together with all the attendant sub-disciplines which each of these areas entails. CRM can be defined as a system which utilises resources to promote safety within the workplace.

                      CRM is concerned with the cognitive and interpersonal skills needed to manage resources within an organized system, not so much with the technical knowledge and skills required to operate equipment. In this context, cognitive skills are defined as the mental processes used for gaining and maintaining situational awareness, for solving problems and for making decisions. Interpersonal skills are regarded as communications and a range of behavioral activities associated with teamwork. In many operational systems as in other walks of life, skill areas often overlap with each other, and they also overlap with the required technical skills. Furthermore, they are not confined to multi-crew craft or equipment, but also relate to single operator equipment or craft as they invariably need to interface with other craft or equipment and various other support agencies in order to complete a mission successfully.

                      Does that read like the liberal media reaction? Nuanced and skillful? Or did we just get the 'inject with bleach version'?

                      Because putting words into the skipper's mouth, assuming worst possible literal interpretations of every misstep, and then openly sneering and mocking … is not the same thing as CRM at all.

                      On most yachts it would get you brusquely dropped off at the first available pier.

                    • KJT …
                      26 April 2020 at 1:10 pm

                      If the Master, or senior pilot, was an F wit, like Trump, too right, in New Zealand he would get called out and ridiculed, rightly so.

                      He wouldn't last 5 minutes with a Kiwi ships crew.

                      They simply wouldn't put up with officers, that dangerous.

                    • KJT …
                      26 April 2020 at 1:43 pm

                      Too be fair to the Yanks, a tool pusher or barge Master on the rig, that was that much of a loose cannon, would have probably had a tensioner pulley dropped on his head.

        • KJT 23.1.2.2
          26 April 2020 at 10:23 am

          Not unproven at all. Used in water treatment plants already.

          And in disinfection buses and public transport in at least one Asian country, for Covid.

          https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/can-uv-light-kill-the-coronavirus-experts-break-down-online-claims-1.4885104 See about UVC.

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultraviolet_germicidal_irradiation

          However it is as hazardous to humans if applied internally or externally, as it is to bugs.

          Trump, obviously got the briefing mixed up..

          • Andre 23.1.2.2.1
            26 April 2020 at 10:33 am

            My first thought when I heard Adderolf Covitler's comments was: when are we going to hear reports of gullible idiots thinking they can treat themselves by stuffing UV LED strip lights up their nose to go down their windpipes and into their lungs?

            • RedLogix 23.1.2.2.1.2
              26 April 2020 at 10:45 am

              If that was your "first thought", then may I politely suggest you've gotten into the bad habit of reflexively interpreting everything he says in the craziest manner possible.

              • Andre …
                26 April 2020 at 11:03 am

                I've had that habit since the early 90s when I was living in Philadelphia and Donnie Dingleberry was merely a regional affliction, ostentatiously stiffing contractors, defrauding investors, and generally just being the worst kind of despicable garbage wearing a human skinsuit possibly imaginable.

                Every time news came out of one of his fresh acts of loathsomeness that ruined the lives of ordinary people, I was left wondering how the hell people failed to do even the most minimal due diligence before getting taken in by him.

                • KJT …
                  26 April 2020 at 12:00 pm

                  Did myself the disservice of watching his TV, show a couple of times.

                  His ideas on what made a good manager, something else I've bothered to study, were farcical, bordering on comic.

                  Only someone who started with a large fortune, big enough to be surrounded with greedy sycophants, could get away with that degree of self delusion.

                  I like to think that in New Zealand, someone would have said. "You’re full of it".

          • RedLogix 23.1.2.2.2
            26 April 2020 at 11:02 am

            However it is as hazardous to humans if applied internally or externally, as it is to bugs.

            Yes UV is hazardous in excessive dosages, but in small doses humans rely on it to produce Vitamin D.

            The windpipe is really just an extension of our external skin into our lungs. It's not unreasonable to explore the idea that it might tolerate some short exposure to UV with the expectation that virus's might be killed on or close to the surface, without chronic damage to the windpipe itself.

            I can think of all kinds of reasons why this idea might turn out to be a bad one, but the worst possible reason would be 'that Trump said it first'.

            • KJT 23.1.2.2.2.1
              26 April 2020 at 11:31 am

              You didn't really bother to read what i put there, did you.

              UVC, which is used for disinfection, is not a part of the suns radiation we are normally exposed to.

              Experience has shown, as a general rule, if "Trump says it" it is either garbled BS, or outright lies.

              • RedLogix …
                26 April 2020 at 11:40 am

                Sighs. Yes I actually ran several large water supply UVC plants for some years; just because I don't overlay technical stuff onto every comment doesn't mean I'm unaware of it.

                But if you really want some readable details.

                Happy?

                • KJT …
                  26 April 2020 at 12:08 pm

                  In other words you know enough, not to be misleading about UV…..?

                  • RedLogix …
                    26 April 2020 at 12:19 pm

                    If you read the article it points out … as I did … that there are any number of reasons to be skeptical and cautious about using UV internally for this purpose, but it doesn't rule it out either. More research needed.

                    After all it's not entirely obvious that introducing radioactive materials into the body would help attack cancer either, but with research and refinement it has become one of our main tools against it.

                    • KJT …
                      26 April 2020 at 12:35 pm

                      My issue is generalising about things, that should be specifically spelt out.

                      As you have expertise in the area, you are obviously capable of it.

                      Otherwise we end up, as is happening now, people selling "UV sterilisers", which are the wrong frequency altogether, about as effective as shining a torch on it, and, if they were the correct ones, would be too hazardous to use.

                    • RedLogix …
                      26 April 2020 at 12:44 pm

                      Maybe it should have been clear that I was not generally endorsing random UV treatment methods where I said:

                      I can think of all kinds of reasons why this idea might turn out to be a bad one, but the worst possible reason would be 'that Trump said it first'.

                      You are right maybe I could have spelled it out in more detail, but then again I find many people misread longer qualified comments just as readily as they do short pithy ones.

    • martyn sadler 23.2
      26 April 2020 at 9:27 am

      He said it was sarcasm not a misunderstanding. He says he said it?

    • solkta 23.3
      26 April 2020 at 9:39 am

      Amazing that you know this when Trump doesn't. The next day he tried to claim it was sarcasm but clear he was that he was talking about disinfectant:

      But i was asking a sarcastic — and a very sarcastic question to the reporters in the room about disinfectant on the inside.

      On video here: https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/04/24/trumps-ridiculous-defense-his-comments-about-injecting-disinfectants/

      • RedLogix 23.3.1
        26 April 2020 at 9:49 am

        I've seen this kind of fucked up behaviour over and again. Someone says something ambiguous or muddled and everyone leaps to the worst possible interpretation and then uses this for a massive shit-kicking pile-on.

        And then the left likes to pretend it's all for kindness, empathy and inclusiveness.

        • solkta 23.3.1.1
          26 April 2020 at 9:54 am

          I've seen this kind of fucked up behaviour over and again. Someone provides clear evidence that you are wrong but rather than address that evidence you just double down.

          • RedLogix 23.3.1.1.1
            26 April 2020 at 10:11 am

            And here's the kind inclusive empathy loving leftie running in for the shit kicking as usual. Listen to the video, it's obvious he's not quite gotten his head around something he's not an expert on. He's a bit hesitant and searching for the words as he says them.

            Yes he's clearly been ambiguous and inaccurate. Pretty much like everyone is. Yes it rated a correction, it didn’t rate a global gloat session.

            • KJT 23.3.1.1.1.1
              26 April 2020 at 10:34 am

              He is the president, FFS, it is his job, to give clear and accurate information during a disaster.

              The US worship of rich dicks, means no one has the guts to challenge him.

              "Garbled messages" are killing people.

              And you are concerned about being nasty to the killer?

            • solkta 23.3.1.1.1.2
              26 April 2020 at 10:36 am

              Why can't you just admit when you are wrong? Funny how you are just like Trump in this regard.

              You don't need to be an expert to know not to put disinfectant in your body.

              He has said something ridiculous and then told an obvious lie to try and cover the fact.

              • RedLogix …
                26 April 2020 at 10:51 am

                I've made it 100% clear Trump was being ambiguous and unclear. His words can be reasonably interpreted in a number of ways, some more likely than others. But it's hard to tell because frankly I don't think Trump quite knew what he was trying to say at that moment.

                But as you say "you don't need to be an expert to know not to put disinfectant in your body" then maybe it's also reasonable to allocate a pretty low probability that this was what he meant.

                • Cinny …
                  26 April 2020 at 11:09 am

                  The thing is some will take what he says as gospel and start shining UV lights into their orifices or trying to 'disinfect' their bodies from the inside out with whatever means is available.

                  He is the President of the USA giving the American people updates during a pandemic, it's crucial he chooses the correct words.

                • solkta …
                  26 April 2020 at 11:11 am

                  Oh, so now you are saying this:

                  I've made it 100% clear Trump was being ambiguous and unclear.

                  But you started by saying this:

                  The context he was clearly speaking in (as clearly as he ever gets) was the possible use of powerful UV light used to 'disinfect' the body from this virus. And apparently this a reasonable type of treatment being investigated.

                  So you have moved from clearly to ambiguous but you see no need to acknowledge that you were wrong.

                  • RedLogix …
                    26 April 2020 at 11:17 am

                    Well when I first watched the video the "UV disinfection" context was the one that first came to my mind. That was the 'least unclear' interpretation to me, even if as usual Trump was being muddled about it.

                    I can offer no explanation as to why so many other people, who all apparently know that putting bleach into the body is a bad idea, would immediately firmly conclude this was what the President was advising.

                    • Sacha …
                      26 April 2020 at 11:23 am

                      Because he said it. You might want to reflect on why your first instinct is to defend the guy. Look at the company you're keeping.

                    • solkta …
                      26 April 2020 at 11:58 am

                      So when you said it was clear that was not what you actually thought? Now you say ambiguous even though Trump himself clarified that he WAS talking about disinfectant, but being sarcastic, when asked about it at the press conference the next day.

                      Trump has said many idiotic things so when he says something idiotic people don't assume that he has misspoken.

                      I'm going to leave it there as you are obviously just wasting words. You can come back with the last word now.

        • Incognito 23.3.1.2
          26 April 2020 at 7:23 pm

          Ambiguity, unclear, confusion, imprecise, inaccurate, poorly expressed thoughts and arguments, illogical arguments, you name it, often compounded by not making sufficient distinction between fact and opinion. None of it is conducive to robust discussion and it often leads to robust shit-piling and willy-waving contests.

          When pointed out to them, many a commenter balks at the idea that they could do better and lift their game. Some become quite shitty, in fact. Very few take the hint and improve. Of course, no one is as bad as Simon, Donald, Boris, or whichever ‘example’ they would prefer to compare themselves with. It is too easy (!) to feel superior, become smug, then comment here, feel superior, and be smug.

          Common sense and science can be ‘mortal enemies’.

  24. joe90 24
    26 April 2020 at 9:32 am

    They knew how the exchange would be parsed.

    https://twitter.com/spettypi/status/1253675284878032897

    • weka 24.1
      26 April 2020 at 10:23 am

      wait, they first transcribed her as saying it is a treatment?

      • joe90 24.1.1
        26 April 2020 at 10:39 am

        I read it as they made out in the first transcript that Birx supported the use of bleach and UV as a treatment and when they realised just how absurd it was they went with not as a treatment.

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