As we all know, the Right has, at times, harnessed a latent racism that runs deep in parts of this culture. We saw it with National’s Iwi/Kiwi and we see it in everything Lhaws does.
Don’t get me wrong toad – i very much enjoy your posts here and on Channel 2 and you seem to be both well connected and have well thought out positions.
However, in this case, you seem to show a bit of the arrogance and superiority with the liberal left – the people choose but only when we let them choose.
Personally, I have no view on the super shitty (long time since I left AK) but would have liked to see Maori seats. Happy to see Whanganui.
But if you think it’s only right that the majority can decide whether to proceed with the super city then you should have no issue with the majority deciding other matters of concern.
My view is that is what Governments are elected to do – make decisions.
I think this is all a massive waste of time, effort and money, however…
Correct me if I am wrong but wasn’t Maori an oral language prior to the settlor’s arrival – in which case how can there be any evidence suggesting the spelling of the name being correct or incorrect – surely any Maori spelling is going to come down to phonetics?
jagilby, I covered this in my submission to the NZGB.
Excerpt:
The spelling of the name of the pre-European settlement has been determined by the legitimate authority, Te Taura Whiri Reo MÄori, to be ‘Whanganui’; this is the spelling of the name of the river on whose mouth the city is located, the spelling of which was previously agreed by both MÄori and PÄkehÄ residents […] if the word is not a MÄori word, then the local iwi’s pronunciation is irrelevant. If it is, then PÄkehÄ have no right to redefine it without the consent of iwi. The MÄori language is clearly included in the meaning of ‘tÄonga katoa’ as used in Te Tiriti o Waitangi (article 2) and rights to possession (‘rangatiratanga’) are similarly guaranteed.
the claim that local MÄori pronunciation renders the ‘h’ silent is no cause for the word to be spelt differently except with the consent of those with the original claim to the word and its pronunciation. There are precedents for this among other iwi/hapÅ« and in other rohe for example, the rendition of ‘ng’ as ‘k’ by some KÄi Tahu/NgÄi Tahu, as in ‘Aoraki’ rather than ‘Aorangi’. But in the case in point, those who are legitimately entitled under the Treaty to claim that ‘Whanganui’ should be pronounced ‘Wanganui’ as a matter of preserving their control over their tÄonga are not doing so; in fact, quite the opposite. Te RÅ«nanga o Tupoho, a subset of the very people whose consent should be required to retain the spelling as ‘Wanganui’, is campaigning for the change to ‘Whanganui’. Likewise Wanganui residents who complain that they don’t want their city’s name pronounced ‘Fonganui’ are, with due respect, not legitimately entitled to change or retain a spelling for that purpose without the consent of those for whom the name is tÄonga, and whose possession is guaranteed by the Treaty.
Thanks Lew for clearing that up. Just wasn’t sure. Makes sense if they agreed on words to use them.
In any case I fail to see how this has suddenly become such an emotive issue nearly 170 years after the fact. With all due respect I think that Maoridom are facing far more pressing issues that don’t seem to elicit the same level of raw emotion. Anecdotally (through talking to Maori friends of mine etc) this is as much a frustration of Maori as it is the rest of the country… when will we stop placing so much focus on these minor issues?
“They don’t have different versions of written english for all the various ways she is spake throughout the world.The written version is fairly consistent.”
Sure but that was my point, My understanding was that Maori was an oral language, the same can’t be said for English (so I think you’re really grasping straws to link the two) – unless you are saying that Maori also developed the English alphabet through pure coincidence? The only way to initially derive a written Maori language surely must have been to use phonetics – as Lew pointed out with spellings being mutually agreed between Maori and Pakeha. The only thing I found interesting about your allusion to accents in this instance was the fact tha some have actually argued that it was the local W-h-anganui dialect the confused the spelling in the first place.
What I really can’t understand out of this whole affair though is that, of the 889 submissions received by the NZGB, 9 were neutral. Who goes to all the trouble/ has time to write a neutral submission???
It’s always been an important issue, and people who care strongly about it have been using ‘Whanganui’ for decades (even though sometimes it means their mail ends up in Whangarei). It’s just only really come to a head now because people have only now exercised their access to the proper channels.
MÄori was an oral language, but it was quite quickly codified into a written orthography — several times, though the definitive one is H.W Williams’ A Dictionary of the MÄori Language (1844), in which both the words ‘whanga’ and ‘nui’ were included with those spellings. The language was rendered into written form according to a systematic process, as languages are – it wasn’t random or full of exceptions and oddities. The words have their ordinary meaning in the name, so there’s no reason at all why they shouldn’t have their ordinary spelling.
They don’t have different versions of written english for all the various ways she is spake throughout the world.The written version is fairly consistent.
‘Wanga’ as a part of the written version of the language doesn’t mean anything, it isn’t a word.
I don’t dispute it is/was an issue… its relative importance as an issue, well I’m afraid that is something that that I dispute.
I just can’t believe that we are quite literally arguing semantics given all the other problems we face currently.
Discussion on Radio Live: it’s classic Key-speak (i.e. barely intelligible, because clarity is the enemy of popularity), but it sounds like he’s backing Laws:
MICHAEL LAWS: Well you know you may actually or your Government – well as you know will be the final arbiter on that. What’s your view of local democracy?
JOHN KEY: Yeah, well we try and listen to local people where we can. The – I don’t know, it’s a bit of an interesting debate, isn’t it?
MICHAEL LAWS: Well seriously – I just, you know, I didn’t mean to talk about that this morning but it will come to you, it will come to the Government because the final decision’s not made by the New Zealand Geographic Board.
But four out of five Wanganui people voted – at the referendum this year, I think 19,000 people voted, and 80 per cent of them said listen, keep things as they are. Is that persuasive for you?
JOHN KEY: Yeah, well, it sounds like a pretty strong argument. I haven’t waded my way through the whole thing other than just sort of occasionally hearing it, you know, bubbling along in the background. But, yeah, I mean in the end it should be ultimately the decision I would have thought for local people.
MICHAEL LAWS: Thank you. I’m delighted to hear that.
Did either Laws or Key manage a single intelligible sentence in that conversation?
Oh and in honour of Michael Laws’ insistence on incorrect spelling he shall henceforth be referred to as: Mikael Laus, Mare of Wanganui (until he learns to spell at which point Michael Laws, Mayor of Whanganui will be appropriate once more).
My name originates in France. When a Maori, Eskimo or Ethiopian etc spells or pronounces my name wrongly I politely correct them. I dont however give them the privelege of telling me how it really should be. Its mine and from my culture. Even if there are 4 Eskimos arguing I am wrong versus me (80% versus 20%) they are still wrong.
What about Whanganui belonging to Maori language and culture does Laws not understand? Who knows if Laws is racist? He is definitely ignorant.
I can’t help agreeing with Dr Grant – Whanganui was incorrectly spelt and and its misspelling offended the speakers of the language ‘lending’ the name. Mr Laws needs to take a deep breath and ponder….but, on reflection, it is a vain hope.
And perhaps Mr Key should remain silent on these things until briefed – one can see another clash with the Maori Party heading over the horizon if his government bends to Mr Laws’ position. And Mr Williamson is an ideal minister to make the final decision…..noted for his guarded prudence…..
what a dumb-assed comment from the PM. Maori is one of New Zealand’s national languages, therefore maori place names should be spelt correctly. It is beyond belief that this is an issue.
Use of a national language is not a matter for local referenda . ..
So if the H is brought in, how much will that little exercise cost and who carries the bill ?
a) All Road Signs in Area
b) All Street Maps
c) All Local Business – Change letter head, business cards, etc
d) GPS applications
e) All Companies that correspond with people in the area
One of the Massey Uni boffins should do a costing exercise, if it turns out that it will cost tens of millions of dollars (which it will do), just flick a couple of hundred $K at the local Iwi instead as settlement of the ‘grievance’.
It’s in times like these where we need to cut all frivolous expenditure.
Or the various affected parties could just update their bits and pieces as they fall due for replacement. Road signs are crashed into or vandalised regularly, businesses use their stationery up and re-order more, GPS applications are updated all the time, it doesn’t have to be a biggie.
The District Council should send the bill to Double Dipton, vidiot.
I’m sure his accommodation expenses will cover it, because road signs are the only ones that probably need attention immediately. Changing web presence costs stuff all, and the rest like letterheads can wait until existing stock runs out. As for businesses, well, it’s up to them. I can’t imagine anythign is going to go astray if they don’t use the “h”.
Way back in the 70’s I was fortunate enough to be in the middle of nowhere camping with a group of people which included a few Maori elders. I was young and these old chaps and I spent a few nights sitting around the fire talking shit about NZ, the stars and the stories of the past. I heard some really interesting stories in the timeless word of mouth fashion that legends are passed down via.
During one conversation I asked about the ‘wh’ sound and one of the old boys told me to stop talking like a educated white boy. He said to me;
Back when he was skipping off school speaking Maori in school earned you the cane. He also went on to say that having no written language the spelling of Maori words was entirely at the discretion of the English who were arrogant as hell about their language. He asked me – Do you really think that the arrogant English would have invented a new language construct to represent a sound they heard when that sound as spoken today was already well covered by the “ph” or “f” sound ?
He said the words were different from place to place anyway, and that the whole “wh” nonsense was getting out of hand. (remember this was the 70’s…)
I’m in no way saying having ‘wh’ is wrong for Whanganui, because the owners of that word/name have the right to dictate how it we should say and spell it – but that old boys words stuck with me at the time and ever since then I’ve wondered who really is right and wrong here.
Im on the side of the people, if they voted for the H, put it in, if the whole country had a vote to change the name of New Zealand to Aotearoa, and people voted for change, I say change it.
If 80% of people in a town vote for something, then do it, I dont think outsiders to the town should have a say, its about community.
lets see .. 170 or so years ago, some white guys turn up on the West Coast by a river and meet some local Maori and say “hi, my names Jon (or is it John), this is a nice place, what’s it called?” .. Wanganui they say .. really, how do you spell that? .. buggered if I know they say .. well then, says Jon, (or is it John), how about if we spell it Wanganui? .. looks ok to us say the locals and there we have it, simple.
BUT, there is always a but, a decade or so later, white guys and brown guys meet up and somewhere (maybe Petone which could be next) and get talking over some rum and roast kumera and they all notice that the Wanganui Maori talk funny .. or is it the other Maori talk funny (hard for me to know because I wasn’t there) anyway, they have a chat and decide that maybe there could be a translation problem. Now, from I have read, the Wanganui Maori were beaten up by both the Poms and fellow Maori during the wars so it was determind that the Wanganui tribes can’t speak properly so they lose again. Maybe if they were stronger, we would have Wangarei and Wakatane etc .. there you go, an alternative version and who was actually there to say I’m wrong.
gee I hear you say .. racist redneck.
ps .. couldn’t be bothered with all the ” ” and ?’s.
So Bored .. what is the correct pronounciation of Wanganui .. what about Whanau.
It would be good for you to compare with say Ms Turia. I wonder if you would be happy to be corrected and pronounce such words her way in future.
This is a good point but as an argument it falls down. There was only one dialect involved in the creation of the written Maori language over a few short years.
burt, I don’t see the point you’re making. Is it that the Wiremu-based orthography in current use does not represent the Whanganui dialect? If so, that is a matter for the Whanganui iwi to take up — not a bunch of latter-day settlers who don’t speak the dialect anyway (bar one word of it which they perversely claim isn’t a MÄori word anyhow).
The people whose dialect it is (that is, those who are guaranteed ‘possession’ of it under Article 2 of the Treaty) have made their decision. That’s the core rebuttal of all dialect-based arguments against Whanganui.
I think we are saying the same thing in different ways. I have no issues with the ‘h’. Really as far as I can see it’s the right of the people who claim ownership of the name to describe how it is said and ultimately how we should spell it.
I totally agree that the same words are said differently in different dialects and believe that was the case in NZ with Maori in the 1800’s. For some reason now we need to standardise it – this I disagree with. I don’t think it’s likely the English wrote down anything other than what they heard at the time and therefore separate dialects may not be adequately catered for with a single spelling as defined by a small group of 1800’s English speakers.
As far as I’m concerned if some Maori want to say ‘Wanau’ and others ‘Fanau’ then so what. Who are we to say that because it is starts with ‘Wh’ if must be said ‘Fa’ when we don’t allow alternate spellings.
thank god for Lew .. you are so right.
can you imagine a bloke from Liverpool going to any town/city in Yorkshire and telling the locals they don’t pronounce English correctly? bif/bash/smack.
What you are saying is the crux of what the problem is. The variation on how to say English words is hard enough so how an I suppose to get Maori correct when they can’t get it it the same themselves .. we need more Lews.
Or Rochelle’s. She routinely corrects her Maori surrogate fathers pronunciation with the full blessing of his mother and family. Lyn thinks that my spoken english is terrible because I know the words, their meaning, but I’ve only ever seen them written. I seem to be under tuition during most discussions with her.
On the other hand, I’m a master of the computer dialects. I lost count of how many I knew in my 20’s at about 45, and I routinely pick up 4 or 5 per year. I just finished sucking up python which took about 5 days to go from ignorance to literate. Next up is the WPF language xaml because I need to get directx into web pages.
“Correct” spelling can only exist if there is an existing written language. Even then correct spelling is contentious.
Maori was never a written language. It cannot therefore have a spelling.
All languages in constant and useful use are always changing in pronunciation,
and, if written, changing in spelling..
All languages, worldwide, have undergone huge changes in word adoption, adaptation, pronunciation and (God help us,spelling).
All languages have dialectical differences.
Spelling does not change pronunciation.
The way most pakeha pronounce “Taupo” or “Tauranga” is not the way most Maori
pronounce it (depending which part of the country they come from ,of course.)
In culturally secure countries pronunciation, let alone spelling , is a non event.
This whole topic is about Ken Mair trying to make himself important.
Peter, this issue rests on the question “When was the MÄori language?”
The answer is that it is. MÄori was not a written language, but it is one now (and has been one for almost a couple hundred years). There is now a universally-accepted orthography and lexicography, and a huge amount of documentation establishing the provenance and correctness of same. It is one of the most thoroughly-documented and well-used indigenous minority languages in the world. There is quite literally no credible dissent to these well-established norms. Under this system, there is one (1) spelling of the word meaning ‘big harbour’ after which the city at the mouth of the river of the same name was called, and it has an h in it.
This is not some countercultural mumbo-jumbo; this is quite simply how language works.
But, hey — it’s cool, if it gets your wheels spinning, keep at it. Your (and Michael Laws’) position is simply not supported by evidence. The more you keep at it, the more obvious you make this. Please — have at it.
Peter: So? Your argument shows an abysmal ignorance of the history of the english written language.
On that basis you’d also say that english has the same issue. It wasn’t formalised until the 18th century when the first dictionaries were written. Less than a century before Maori.
It wasn’t until the 16th century that any significant body of written literature emerged in english. It is largely unreadable to any modern reader because the spelling was pretty much up to the taste of the author. I’d suggest having a look in the rare books section of your local university or major public library.
English was and still is an oral language. The biggest group of english speakers in world are in the indian subcontinent. While they can out-talk almost any group that I know, it is as hard to understand them as it is to understand someone from Alabama.
The biggest written language in the world, Mandarin bears little resemblance to the spoken form of the language. For that matter the most ancient written languages in the western world like Latin and classical Greek show the same characteristics. We can read them, but we have no idea about how they were spoken – just a lot of guesswork.
Written languages only have a passing relationship with the spoken. What we are talking about here is a written bastardization of a place name by mapmakers who couldn’t ‘hear’ how the locals pronounced a name. Since it is a local Maori name, they should be able to determine the spelling.
Your arguments are just spurious. You claim an authority that simply doesn’t exist, about something you know little about. Personally I just ascribe it to an inherent mindless bigotry.
Yep… There is a reason for having an authoritative name for people, things and places. Personally I always pronounce Onehunga as One-hung-a and I won’t even attempt to to describe how I pronounce Newton or Ponsonby.
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The Finance and Expenditure Committee has reported back on National's Local Government (Water Services Preliminary Arrangements) Bill. The bill sets up water for privatisation, and was introduced under urgency, then rammed through select committee with no time even for local councils to make a proper submission. Naturally, national's select committee ...
Some years ago, I bought a book at Dunedin’s Regent Booksale for $1.50. As one does. Vandrad the Viking (1898), by J. Storer Clouston, is an obscure book these days – I cannot find a proper online review – but soon it was sitting on my shelf, gathering dust alongside ...
History is not on the side of the centre-left, when Democratic presidents fall behind in the polls and choose not to run for re-election. On both previous occasions in the past 75 years (Harry Truman in 1952, Lyndon Johnson in 1968) the Democrats proceeded to then lose the White House ...
This is a free articleCoverageThis morning, US President Joe Biden announced his withdrawal from the Presidential race. And that is genuinely newsworthy. Thanks for your service, President Biden, and all the best to you and yours.However, the media in New Zealand, particularly the 1News nightly bulletin, has been breathlessly covering ...
A homeless person’s camp beside a blocked-off slipped damage walkway in Freeman’s Bay: we are chasing our tail on our worsening and inter-related housing, poverty and climate crises. Photo: Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāTL;DR: The top six things I’ve noted around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy ...
What has happened to it all?Crazy, some'd sayWhere is the life that I recognise?(Gone away)But I won't cry for yesterdayThere's an ordinary worldSomehow I have to findAnd as I try to make my wayTo the ordinary worldYesterday morning began as many others - what to write about today? I began ...
TL;DR: My pick of the top six links elsewhere around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy in the last day or so to 7:00 am on Monday, July 22 are:Today’s Must Read: Father and son live in a tent, and have done for four years, in a million ...
TL;DR: As of 7:00 am on Monday, July 22, the top six announcements, speeches, reports and research around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy in the last day are:US President Joe Biden announced via X this morning he would not stand for a second term.Multinational professional services firm ...
A listing of 32 news and opinion articles we found interesting and shared on social media during the past week: Sun, July 14, 2024 thru Sat, July 20, 2024. Story of the week As reflected by preponderance of coverage, our Story of the Week is Project 2025. Until now traveling ...
This weekend, a friend pointed out someone who said they’d like to read my posts, but didn’t want to pay. And my first reaction was sympathy.I’ve already told folks that if they can’t comfortably subscribe, and would like to read, I’d be happy to offer free subscriptions. I don’t want ...
National: The Party of ‘Law and Order’ IntroductionThis weekend, the Government formally kicked off one of their flagship policy programs: a military style boot camp that New Zealand has experimented with over the past 50 years. Cartoon credit: Guy BodyIt’s very popular with the National Party’s Law and Orderimage, ...
Day one of the solo leg of my long journey home begins with my favourite sound: footfalls in an empty street. 5.00 am and it’s already light and already too warm, almost.If I can make the train that leaves Budapest later this hour I could be in Belgrade by nightfall; ...
Do you remember Y2K, the threat that hung over humanity in the closing days of the twentieth century? Horror scenarios of planes falling from the sky, electronic payments failing and ATMs refusing to dispense cash. As for your VCR following instructions and recording your favourite show - forget about it.All ...
Climate Change Minister Simon Watts being questioned by The Kākā’s Bernard Hickey.TL;DR: My top six things to note around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy in the week to July 20 were:1. A strategy that fails Zero Carbon Act & Paris targetsThe National-ACT-NZ First Coalition Government finally unveiled ...
Summary:As New Zealand loses at least 12 leaders in the public service space of health, climate, and pharmaceuticals, this month alone, directly in response to the Government’s policies and budget choices, what lies ahead may be darker than it appears. Tui examines some of those departures and draws a long ...
The Minister of Housing’s ambition is to reduce markedly the ratio of house prices to household incomes. If his strategy works it would transform the housing market, dramatically changing the prospects of housing as an investment.Leaving aside the Minister’s metaphor of ‘flooding the market’ I do not see how the ...
As previously noted, my historical fantasy piece, set in the fifth-century Mediterranean, was accepted for a Pirate Horror anthology, only for the anthology to later fall through. But in a good bit of news, it turned out that the story could indeed be re-marketed as sword and sorcery. As of ...
An employee of tobacco company Philip Morris International demonstrates a heated tobacco device. Photo: Getty ImagesTL;DR: The top six things I’ve noted around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy on Friday, July 19 are:At a time when the Coalition Government is cutting spending on health, infrastructure, education, housing ...
TL;DR: My pick of the top six links elsewhere around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy in the last day or so to 8:30 am on Friday, July 19 are:Scoop: NZ First Minister Casey Costello orders 50% cut to excise tax on heated tobacco products. The minister has ...
Kia ora, it’s time for another Friday roundup, in which we pull together some of the links and stories that caught our eye this week. Feel free to add more in the comments! Our header image this week shows a foggy day in Auckland town, captured by Patrick Reynolds. ...
TL;DR : Here’s the top six items climate news for Aotearoa this week, as selected by Bernard Hickey and The Kākā’s climate correspondent Cathrine Dyer. A discussion recorded yesterday is in the video above and the audio of that sent onto the podcast feed.The Government released its draft Emissions Reduction ...
Save some money, get rich and old, bring it back to Tobacco Road.Bring that dynamite and a crane, blow it up, start all over again.Roll up. Roll up. Or tailor made, if you prefer...Whether you’re selling ciggies, digging for gold, catching dolphins in your nets, or encouraging folks to flutter ...
Waiting In The Wings:For truly, if Trump is America’s un-assassinated Caesar, then J.D. Vance is America’s Octavian, the Republic’s youthful undertaker – and its first Emperor.DONALD TRUMP’S SELECTION of James D. Vance as his running-mate bodes ill for the American republic. A fervent supporter of Viktor Orban, the “illiberal” prime ...
TL;DR: As of 6:00 am on Friday, July 19, the top six announcements, speeches, reports and research around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy in the last day are:The PSAannounced the Employment Relations Authority (ERA) had ruled in the PSA’s favour in its case against the Ministry ...
Te Rangi e tu nei (The sky above us) Te Papa e takoto nei (The land beneath us) Tatou katoa te hunga ora (To us all the living) Tena koutou katoa (Greetings) ...
A late change to charter school legislation will cheat educators out of fair pay and negotiating power proving charter schools are just a vehicle to make profit out of our education system. ...
In 2004 te iwi Māori rallied against the Crown’s attempt to confiscate our coastlines and moana with the Foreshore and Seabed Act. This led to the largest hīkoi of a generation and the birth of Te Pāti Māori. 20 years later, history is repeating itself. Today the government has announced ...
It has been five and a half years since the Royal Commission of Inquiry into Abuse in Care was established to investigate the abuse of children, young people, and vulnerable adults within state and faith-based institutions. Yesterday, the final report - Whanaketia through pain and trauma, from darkness to light ...
The Green Party is calling on the Government to take action off the back of the International Court of Justice ruling on Israel’s illegal occupation of Palestine. ...
On Friday the International Court of Justice reaffirmed what Palestinian’s have been telling us for decades: that the occupation and colonisation of Palestinian lands by Israel is illegal and must end immediately. They also called for reparations for Palestinian’s who have lived under Israeli occupation since it began in 1967. ...
Labour calls on the Government to act after the International Court of Justice (ICJ) ruled that Israel’s occupation of Palestinian Territories is illegal. ...
The 53.7 percent rise in benefit sanctions over the last year is more proof of this Government’s disdain for our communities most in need of support. ...
Aotearoa could be a country where every child grows up feeling safe, loved and with a sense of belonging in their whānau and community. But for some of our children, this is far from reality. Instead, they are trapped in a maze of intergenerational harm that they can’t escape on ...
Te Pāti Māori are calling for David Seymour to resign as Associate Health Minister in response to his call for Pharmac to ignore the Treaty of Waitangi. “This announcement is just another example of the government’s anti-Tiriti, anti-Māori agenda.” Said Co-leader and spokesperson for health, Debbie Ngarewa-Packer. “Seymour thinks it ...
The soaring price of renting is driving the rise of inflation in this country - with latest figures from Stats NZ showing rents are up 4.8 per cent on average while annual inflation is at 3.3 per cent. ...
National’s Emissions Reduction Plan will take New Zealand further from the economy we need to ensure the next generation has a stable climate and secure livelihoods. ...
Following consultation with named parties and thorough consideration of privacy interests, the Green Party is in a position to release the Executive Summary of the final report from the independent investigation into Darleen Tana. ...
Prime Minister Christopher Luxon should be asking serious questions of his Minister for Resources Shane Jones now it’s been revealed he misled the public about a dinner with mining companies that he didn’t declare and said wasn’t pre-arranged. ...
Te Pāti Māori have submitted to the Justice Select Committee against the Sentencing (Reinstating Three Strikes) Amendment Bill. The bill will further entrench racism in our justice system and fails to focus on rehabilitation. “Reinstating Three Strikes will empower a systematically racist system and exacerbate the overrepresentation of Māori in ...
The Transport and Infrastructure Committee is set to make a determination on the Residential Tenancies Amendment (RTA) Bill in the coming weeks. “This legislation will give landlords the power to kick our whānau out onto the street for no reason” said Housing spokesperson, Mariameno Kapa-Kingi. “Their solution to the housing ...
“National’s campaign was about tackling crime and the best they can do is a two-year long Ministerial Advisory Group,” Labour justice spokesperson Duncan Webb said. ...
“There are more examples of charter schools failing their students than there are success stories. The coalition Government is driving to dismantle our public school system and instead promote a privatised, competitive structure that puts profits before kids,” Jan Tinetti said. ...
“This government is choosing to deliberately mislead and withhold information, keeping our people in the dark about this government’s agenda and the future of our mokopuna,” said co-leader and spokesperson for Health, Debbie Ngarewa-Packer. The call comes after the demand from the Chief Ombudsman that Associate Minister of Health, Casey ...
“Today’s climate announcement by Simon Watts makes clear the National Government is simply paying lip service to meeting its climate change targets,” Megan Woods said. ...
National is choosing to make life harder for workers by taking away the rights our communities have fought hard for. Here's how they’re taking workers backwards. ...
Australia, Canada and New Zealand today issued the following statement on the need for an urgent ceasefire in Gaza and the risk of expanded conflict between Hizballah and Israel. The situation in Gaza is catastrophic. The human suffering is unacceptable. It cannot continue. We remain unequivocal in our condemnation of ...
Attorney-General Judith Collins today reminded all State and faith-based institutions of their legal obligation to preserve records relevant to the safety and wellbeing of those in its care. “The Abuse in Care Inquiry’s report has found cases where records of the most vulnerable people in State and faith‑based institutions were ...
Minister of Internal Affairs Brooke van Velden says the Government’s online safety website for children and young people has reached one million page views. “It is great to see so many young people and their families accessing the site Keep It Real Online to learn how to stay safe online, and manage ...
Tēnā tātou katoa, Ngā mihi te rangi, ngā mihi te whenua, ngā mihi ki a koutou, kia ora mai koutou. Thank you for the opportunity to be here and the invitation to speak at this 50th anniversary conference. I acknowledge all those who have gone before us and paved the ...
New Zealand’s payroll providers have successfully prepared to ensure 3.5 million individuals will, from Wednesday next week, be able to keep more of what they earn each pay, says Finance Minister Nicola Willis and Revenue Minister Simon Watts. “The Government's tax policy changes are legally effective from Wednesday. Delivering this tax ...
An experimental vineyard which will help futureproof the wine sector has been opened in Blenheim by Associate Regional Development Minister Mark Patterson. The covered vineyard, based at the New Zealand Wine Centre – Te Pokapū Wāina o Aotearoa, enables controlled environmental conditions. “The research that will be produced at the Experimental ...
The Coalition Government has confirmed the indicative regional breakdown of North Island Weather Event (NIWE) funding for state highway recovery projects funded through Budget 2024, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says. “Regions in the North Island suffered extensive and devastating damage from Cyclone Gabrielle and the 2023 Auckland Anniversary Floods, and ...
Indonesia’s Foreign Minister, Retno Marsudi, will visit New Zealand next week, Foreign Minister Winston Peters has announced. “Indonesia is important to New Zealand’s security and economic interests and is our closest South East Asian neighbour,” says Mr Peters, who is currently in Laos to engage with South East Asian partners. ...
He aha te kai a te rangatira? He kōrero, he kōrero, he kōrero. The government has reaffirmed its commitment to supporting the aspirations of Ngāti Maniapoto, Minister for Māori Development Tama Potaka says. “My thanks to Te Nehenehenui Trust – Ngāti Maniapoto for bringing their important kōrero to a ministerial ...
Transport Minister Simeon Brown has thanked outgoing Chair of the Civil Aviation Authority, Janice Fredric, for her service to the board.“I have received Ms Fredric’s resignation from the role of Chair of the Civil Aviation Authority,” Mr Brown says.“On behalf of the Government, I want to thank Ms Fredric for ...
The Government is proposing legislation to overturn a Court of Appeal decision and amend the Marine and Coastal Area Act in order to restore Parliament’s test for Customary Marine Title, Treaty Negotiations Minister Paul Goldsmith says. “Section 58 required an applicant group to prove they have exclusively used and occupied ...
Regulation Minister David Seymour says that opposition parties have united in bad faith, opposing what they claim are ‘dangerous changes’ to the Early Childhood Education sector, despite no changes even being proposed yet. “Issues with affordability and availability of early childhood education, and the complexity of its regulation, has led ...
After receiving more than 740 submissions in the first 20 days, Regulation Minister David Seymour is asking the Ministry for Regulation to extend engagement on the early childhood education regulation review by an extra two weeks. “The level of interest has been very high, and from the conversations I’ve been ...
The Coalition Government is investing $802.9 million into the Wairarapa and Manawatū rail lines as part of a funding agreement with the NZ Transport Agency (NZTA), KiwiRail, and the Greater Wellington and Horizons Regional Councils to deliver more reliable services for commuters in the lower North Island, Transport Minister Simeon ...
Local Government Minister Simeon Brown has announced his intention to appoint a Crown Manager to both Hawke’s Bay Regional and Wairoa District Councils to speed up the delivery of flood protection work in Wairoa."Recent severe weather events in Wairoa this year, combined with damage from Cyclone Gabrielle in 2023 have ...
Mr Speaker, this is a day that many New Zealanders who were abused in State care never thought would come. It’s the day that this Parliament accepts, with deep sorrow and regret, the Report of the Royal Commission of Inquiry into Abuse in Care. At the heart of this report are the ...
For the first time, the Government is formally acknowledging some children and young people at Lake Alice Psychiatric Hospital experienced torture. The final report of the Royal Commission of Inquiry into Abuse in State and Faith-based Care “Whanaketia – through pain and trauma, from darkness to light,” was tabled in Parliament ...
The Government has acknowledged the nearly 2,400 courageous survivors who shared their experiences during the Royal Commission of Inquiry into Historical Abuse in State and Faith-Based Care. The final report from the largest and most complex public inquiry ever held in New Zealand, the Royal Commission Inquiry “Whanaketia – through ...
With a week to go before hard-working New Zealanders see personal income tax relief for the first time in fourteen years, 513,000 people have used the Budget tax calculator to see how much they will benefit, says Finance Minister Nicola Willis. “Tax relief is long overdue. From next Wednesday, personal income ...
Workplace Relations and Safety Minister Brooke van Velden says a bill that has passed its first reading will improve parental leave settings and give non-biological parents more flexibility as primary carer for their child. The Regulatory Systems Amendment Bill (No3), passed its first reading this morning. “It includes a change ...
Two Bills designed to improve regulation and make it easier to do business have passed their first reading in Parliament, says Economic Development Minister Melissa Lee. The Regulatory Systems (Economic Development) Amendment Bill and Regulatory Systems (Immigration and Workforce) Amendment Bill make key changes to legislation administered by the Ministry ...
New legislation paves the way for greater competition in sectors such as banking and electricity, Commerce and Consumer Affairs Minister Andrew Bayly says. “Competitive markets boost productivity, create employment opportunities and lift living standards. To support competition, we need good quality regulation but, unfortunately, a recent OECD report ranked New ...
Minister of Internal Affairs Brooke van Velden says lotteries for charitable purposes, such as those run by the Heart Foundation, Coastguard NZ, and local hospices, will soon be allowed to operate online permanently. “Under current laws, these fundraising lotteries are only allowed to operate online until October 2024, after which ...
The Coalition Government is accelerating work on the new four-lane expressway between Auckland and Whangārei as part of its Roads of National Significance programme, with an accelerated delivery model to deliver this project faster and more efficiently, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says. “For too long, the lack of resilient transport connections ...
Sir Don McKinnon will travel to Viet Nam this week as a Special Envoy of the Government, Foreign Minister Winston Peters has announced. “It is important that the Government give due recognition to the significant contributions that General Secretary Nguyen Phu Trong made to New Zealand-Viet Nam relations,” Mr ...
Minister of Internal Affairs Brooke van Velden says newly appointed Commissioner, Grant Illingworth KC, will help deliver the report for the first phase of the Royal Commission of Inquiry into COVID-19 Lessons, due on 28 November 2024. “I am pleased to announce that Mr Illingworth will commence his appointment as ...
Foreign Minister Winston Peters travels to Laos this week to participate in a series of Association of Southeast Asian Nations (ASEAN)-led Ministerial meetings in Vientiane. “ASEAN plays an important role in supporting a peaceful, stable and prosperous Indo-Pacific,” Mr Peters says. “This will be our third visit to ...
Construction of a new mental health facility at Te Nikau Grey Hospital in Greymouth is today one step closer, Mental Health Minister Matt Doocey says. “This $27 million facility shows this Government is delivering on its promise to boost mental health care and improve front line services,” Mr Doocey says. ...
New Zealand is committing nearly $50 million to a package supporting sustainable Pacific fisheries development over the next four years, Foreign Minister Winston Peters and Oceans and Fisheries Minister Shane Jones announced today. “This support consisting of a range of initiatives demonstrates New Zealand’s commitment to assisting our Pacific partners ...
Associate Education Minister David Seymour says proposed changes to the Education and Training Amendment Bill will ensure charter schools have more flexibility to negotiate employment agreements and are equipped with the right teaching resources. “Cabinet has agreed to progress an amendment which means unions will not be able to initiate ...
In response to serious concerns around oversight, overspend and a significant deterioration in financial outlook, the Board of Health New Zealand will be replaced with a Commissioner, Health Minister Dr Shane Reti announced today. “The previous government’s botched health reforms have created significant financial challenges at Health NZ that, without ...
Minister for Space and Science, Innovation and Technology Judith Collins will travel to Adelaide tomorrow for space and science engagements, including speaking at the Australian Space Forum. While there she will also have meetings and visits with a focus on space, biotechnology and innovation. “New Zealand has a thriving space ...
Climate Change Minister Simon Watts will travel to China on Saturday to attend the Ministerial on Climate Action meeting held in Wuhan. “Attending the Ministerial on Climate Action is an opportunity to advocate for New Zealand climate priorities and engage with our key partners on climate action,” Mr Watts says. ...
Oceans and Fisheries Minister Shane Jones is travelling to the Solomon Islands tomorrow for meetings with his counterparts from around the Pacific supporting collective management of the region’s fisheries. The 23rd Pacific Islands Forum Fisheries Committee and the 5th Regional Fisheries Ministers’ Meeting in Honiara from 23 to 26 July ...
The Government today launched the Military Style Academy Pilot at Te Au rere a te Tonga Youth Justice residence in Palmerston North, an important part of the Government’s plan to crackdown on youth crime and getting youth offenders back on track, Minister for Children, Karen Chhour said today. “On the ...
The Government has welcomed news the NZ Transport Agency (NZTA) has begun work to replace nine priority bridges across the country to ensure our state highway network remains resilient, reliable, and efficient for road users, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says.“Increasing productivity and economic growth is a key priority for the ...
Acting Prime Minister David Seymour has been in contact throughout the evening with senior officials who have coordinated a whole of government response to the global IT outage and can provide an update. The Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet has designated the National Emergency Management Agency as the ...
New Zealand and Japan will continue to step up their shared engagement with the Pacific, Foreign Minister Winston Peters says. “New Zealand and Japan have a strong, shared interest in a free, open and stable Pacific Islands region,” Mr Peters says. “We are pleased to be finding more ways ...
New developments in the heart of North Island forestry country will reinvigorate their communities and boost economic development, Regional Development Minister Shane Jones says. Mr Jones visited Kaingaroa and Kawerau in Bay of Plenty today to open a landmark community centre in the former and a new connecting road in ...
President Adeang, fellow Ministers, honourable Diet Member Horii, Ambassadors, distinguished guests. Minasama, konnichiwa, and good afternoon, everyone. Distinguished guests, it’s a pleasure to be here with you today to talk about New Zealand’s foreign policy reset, the reasons for it, the values that underpin it, and how it ...
This month marks two years since the most powerful telescope ever built sent its first pictures back to earth. From its lofty vantage point, beyond the moon in orbit around the sun, the James Webb Space Telescope was tuned to observe the first stars and galaxies being born soon after ...
Comment: After Climate Change Minister Simon Watts’ preview several weeks ago, I had some optimism about the Government’s emissions reduction plan. Now I’ve read the discussion document, that hope has been dashed. How can the Government propose a plan that wants to take New Zealand taxpayers’ hard-earned money, and spend ...
Christopher Luxon: hurdles The little man from National jumps hurdles in his sleep. He’s quite good at it in his dreams and even though the reality doesn’t quite match up you have to give him credit for getting up every morning and crashing into the very first hurdle of the ...
Comment: It was a good two hours into the conversation when Tyrone Marks raised the most basic of questions when I first spoke to him in 2017. “They didn’t explain the things they did to me. They never told me why. And they still haven’t. There’s no explanation for it. ...
Last summer when Matairangi burned, Ginny and Tom stood at the window of their lounge, watching kākā shoot skyward from the burning trees. From the distance, they looked to Ginny like pages torn from books and thrown into a bonfire. It was Tom, voice tight, who told her it was ...
Opinion: The Canadian short story writer Alice Munro – winner of the Nobel Prize in Literature in 2013 – died in May at the age of 92. Her work was about “the damage people inflict on one another in the name of love”, Deborah Treisman wrote in the New Yorker. ...
Madeleine Chapman rounds out Death Week on The Spinoff with a final recommendation. You can read all of our Death Week coverage here. Nothing forces you to reflect on your life and relationships quite like proximity to death. For those whose nearest and dearest have died, there are reasonably obvious ...
Whitney Greene takes us through her life in television, including the TV character she’d like to plan a funeral for and her cow lung catastrophe on The Traitors NZ. “If the phone rings, I have to answer it,” Whitney Greene from The Traitors NZ warns as we begin our My ...
Maddie Ballard reviews the debut essay collection of Pōneke writer Flora Feltham.In ‘The Raw Material’, the longest essay in Flora Feltham’s dazzling debut collection, the author heads out for a run after hours of weaving and sees the world turn to textile. “Pounding along the Parade, I saw the ...
Andy Christiansen, one half of the experimental rock-pop duo TRiPS, shares the tunes inspiring the band’s perfect weekend and new release. “Good speakers, good food, good music, no distractions”: that’s all you need to enjoy the psychedelic stylings of TRiPS, a new band formed by Fly My Pretties’ Barnaby Weir ...
Celebrating our quadrennial opportunity to become experts in a bunch of sports we never normally watch.The games of the XXXIII Olympiad are upon us. Paris will host this year’s showcase of sporting and athletic prowess, which means some late-night and early-morning viewing for us in Aotearoa.But what sports ...
The photograph is striking and beautiful, but also disturbing – a reminder that my love for John was often entangled in shame.The Sunday Essay is made possible thanks to the support of Creative New Zealand.In the spring of 1980, in Dunedin, shortly before his death, someone took a photograph ...
Get to know Babushka, our latest Dog of the Month. This feature was offered as a reward during our What’s Eating Aotearoa PledgeMe campaign. Thank you to Babu’s humans, Jo and Isabel, for their support. Dog name: Babushka (Babu for short) Age: 2Breed: Border Collie X poodleIf rescued, ...
Pacific Media Watch A Lebanese photojournalist who was severely wounded during an Israeli air strike in south Lebanon carried the Olympic torch in Paris this week in honour of her peers who have been wounded and killed in the field — especially in Gaza and Lebanon. Christina Assi of Agence ...
The first report in a five-part web series focused on the 15th Triennial Conference of Pacific Women taking place in the Marshall Islands this week.SPECIAL REPORT:By Netani Rika in Majuro Women continue to fight for justice 70 years after the first nuclear tests by the United States caused ...
Christopher Luxon has joined with Australia and Canada's leaders in voicing support for US President Joe Biden's ceasefire deal between Israel and Hamas. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Michelle Grattan, Professorial Fellow, University of Canberra The 2022 election brought the “teal wave” into parliament. The next election will test whether teals, who occupy what were Liberal seats, and other independents can maintain their momentum. Joining us on the Podcast ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Ian Musgrave, Senior lecturer in Pharmacology, University of Adelaide Pixavri/Shutterstock A major Federal Court class action has been dismissed this week after Justice Michael Lee ruled there was not enough evidence to prove the weedkiller Roundup causes cancer. Plaintiff Kelvin ...
In The Week in Politics: politicians have to decide what to do about child abuse, Health NZ is booked in for major surgery and Darleen Tana returns. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Clare Corbould, Associate Professor, Contemporary Histories Research Group, Deakin University Mainstream media are surprisingly muted at the prospect of the world’s most powerful nation being led for the first time by a woman – specifically a woman of colour, Vice President Kamala ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Rebecca Bennett, PhD Student, Associate Research Fellow, Deakin University Last week, a drone delivery company called Wing (owned by Google’s parent company, Alphabet) started operating in Melbourne. Some 250,000 residents in parts of the city’s eastern suburbs can now order food from ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Jonathan Foo, Lecturer, Physiotherapy, Monash University pikselstock/Shutterstock In the next 40 years in Australia, it’s predicted the number of Australians aged 65 and over will more than double, while the number of people aged 85 and over will more than triple. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Katrina Grant, Research Associate, Power Institute for Arts and Visual Culture, University of Sydney Jonas Åkerström’s 1790 work, Session of the Accademia dell’Arcadia on August 17 1788.Nationalmuseum/Cecilia Heisser Ever wondered whether you’d have a better chance at winning an Olympic gold ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Alexandra Jones, Program Lead, Food Governance, George Institute for Global Health wavebreakmedia/Shutterstock On Thursday, Australian and New Zealand food ministers at state, federal and national levels met to thrash out what’s next for health star ratings on packaged foods. Now, after ...
The Abuse in Care report found many Pacific survivors lost their connections to their culture and language, resulting in trauma that has been carried from generation to generation. ...
In the regulatory review, ECC intends to suggest that ERO focus on curriculum delivery reviews rather than the Ministry, because it’s not efficient or effective to have two agencies with radically different approaches climbing over each other. ...
Te Rūnanga Nui o Ngā Kura Kaupapa Māori invites the current government to work in partnership with them to develop a pathway forward, including the development of a parallel pathway and meaningful policy and strategy for Kura Kaupapa Māori ...
If you haven’t started watching yet, Tara Ward begs you to reconsider. This is an excerpt from our weekly pop culture newsletter Rec Room. Sign up here. In the world of New Zealand reality television, we have many gems in our crown. There’s the delicious second season of the Celebrity Treasure ...
A new poem by Fiona Kidman. The clothes of the dead I did not keep my mother’s furry red beret for long nor the stringy scarves that adorned the necks of my aunts, although I have kept tag ends of gold, the rings and trinkets they wore, the brooches no ...
The government’s announcement that it will re-open the foreshore and seabed controversy by changing the rules on recognising centuries-old Māori customary title for a third time goes against the rule of law and New Zealand values,” Mr Tipa says. ...
The only published and available best-selling indie book chart in New Zealand is the top 10 sales list recorded every week at Unity Books’ stores in High St, Auckland, and Willis St, Wellington.AUCKLAND1 Lioness by Emily Perkins (Bloomsbury, $25) Roarrrr! Perkins’ brilliant, award-winning, Marian-Keyes anointed, darkly funny, long ...
The 2004 Act vested ownership of the foreshore and seabed in the Crown, extinguishing any Māori claims to ownership and causing widespread outrage and protests among Māori communities. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Antje Deckert, Associate Professor (Criminology), Auckland University of Technology Getty Images Despite the connection between institutional harm and gang membership made clear in this week’s mammoth royal commission abuse-in care report, the government seems unlikely to soften its “get tough on ...
From Lewis Clareburt in the swimming to the start of the rowing – the first seven days of Paris 2024 promise to be big for New Zealand. There are few events that bring the country together quite like an Olympic Games. Nothing quite matches the excitement of getting up in ...
Groundbreaking local science just showed up in the most surprising of places: the season finale of The Kardashians. In the season five finale of The Kardashians last night, several members of the family gathered together in one of their signature empty, cream-coloured rooms to hear test results that had been ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Amin Saikal, Emeritus professor of Middle Eastern and Central Asian Studies, Australian National University The Middle East is on the brink of a possibly devastating regional war, with hostilities between Israel and Hezbollah reaching an extremely dangerous level. Washington has engaged in ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Laura Elizabeth Eades, Rheumatologist, Monash University Lupus is an inflammatory autoimmune illness, where the body’s immune system mistakenly attacks itself. Lupus can affect virtually any part of the body, although it most commonly affects the skin, joints and kidneys. The symptoms ...
A law firm that specialises in working with survivors of abuse in State care is disappointed that the Government fails to recognise that its boot camps can be directly compared to previous boot camps from the 1990s and 2000s. ...
Dying is a natural part of life, like updating your Wof or seeing your hairdresser, but without the word-of-mouth recs that help guarantee a good service. What if we changed that? Dying Reviews received by The Spinoff have had the names of organisations redacted while Hospice NZ collects further data. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Jonti Horner, Professor (Astrophysics), University of Southern Queensland Mike Lewinski/Flickr, CC BY On any clear night, if you gaze skywards long enough, chances are you’ll see a meteor streaking through the sky. Some nights, however, are better than others. At ...
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So, are you are calling the people of Wanganui racist? (in a round about way)
As we all know, the Right has, at times, harnessed a latent racism that runs deep in parts of this culture. We saw it with National’s Iwi/Kiwi and we see it in everything Lhaws does.
That’ll be unsettling for some.
With any luck he’ll form a political party and contest the 2011 election.
L
Didn’t the people vote to keep the spelling the way it was?
So bloody what. The evidence is that it is wrong.
Evidence or racist populism, Brett? Which side are you on?
Maybe we should have a vote on whether Brett’s name should be spelt ‘Brrt’.
It’s got onomatopoeic value, and after all, if lots of people think something should be so, it must be, mustn’t it?
L
In Brett’s honour, I propose that we vote whether you should say “should of” instead of “should have”.
Come on, MJ, don’t be so hard on him. He’s made huge progress in the last year – using apostrophes and everything now.
L
Come on now… Brrttt (opps) Breet deserves to have the correct spelling of his name, as surely as my name is Lyn, Lynne, or Lin….
I’d usually expect the name to be spelled the way of whomever gave it. I wouldn’t consider contradicting Brrrreeeeetttttttttt’s mother….
We’re all for democracy on this site Toad – you know “democracy under attack” and all that.
Yes, democracy is under attack in Auckland Daveski.
But democracy is not about some creepy little bigot running a plebicite after stirring up racist populism in Whanganui.
Don’t get me wrong toad – i very much enjoy your posts here and on Channel 2 and you seem to be both well connected and have well thought out positions.
However, in this case, you seem to show a bit of the arrogance and superiority with the liberal left – the people choose but only when we let them choose.
Personally, I have no view on the super shitty (long time since I left AK) but would have liked to see Maori seats. Happy to see Whanganui.
But if you think it’s only right that the majority can decide whether to proceed with the super city then you should have no issue with the majority deciding other matters of concern.
My view is that is what Governments are elected to do – make decisions.
I think this is all a massive waste of time, effort and money, however…
Correct me if I am wrong but wasn’t Maori an oral language prior to the settlor’s arrival – in which case how can there be any evidence suggesting the spelling of the name being correct or incorrect – surely any Maori spelling is going to come down to phonetics?
jagilby, I covered this in my submission to the NZGB.
Excerpt:
So, no.
L
Bah, and missed out the last bit …
L
Thanks Lew for clearing that up. Just wasn’t sure. Makes sense if they agreed on words to use them.
In any case I fail to see how this has suddenly become such an emotive issue nearly 170 years after the fact. With all due respect I think that Maoridom are facing far more pressing issues that don’t seem to elicit the same level of raw emotion. Anecdotally (through talking to Maori friends of mine etc) this is as much a frustration of Maori as it is the rest of the country… when will we stop placing so much focus on these minor issues?
“They don’t have different versions of written english for all the various ways she is spake throughout the world.The written version is fairly consistent.”
Sure but that was my point, My understanding was that Maori was an oral language, the same can’t be said for English (so I think you’re really grasping straws to link the two) – unless you are saying that Maori also developed the English alphabet through pure coincidence? The only way to initially derive a written Maori language surely must have been to use phonetics – as Lew pointed out with spellings being mutually agreed between Maori and Pakeha. The only thing I found interesting about your allusion to accents in this instance was the fact tha some have actually argued that it was the local W-h-anganui dialect the confused the spelling in the first place.
What I really can’t understand out of this whole affair though is that, of the 889 submissions received by the NZGB, 9 were neutral. Who goes to all the trouble/ has time to write a neutral submission???
capcha: thoughts
jagilby,
It’s always been an important issue, and people who care strongly about it have been using ‘Whanganui’ for decades (even though sometimes it means their mail ends up in Whangarei). It’s just only really come to a head now because people have only now exercised their access to the proper channels.
MÄori was an oral language, but it was quite quickly codified into a written orthography — several times, though the definitive one is H.W Williams’ A Dictionary of the MÄori Language (1844), in which both the words ‘whanga’ and ‘nui’ were included with those spellings. The language was rendered into written form according to a systematic process, as languages are – it wasn’t random or full of exceptions and oddities. The words have their ordinary meaning in the name, so there’s no reason at all why they shouldn’t have their ordinary spelling.
L
They don’t have different versions of written english for all the various ways she is spake throughout the world.The written version is fairly consistent.
‘Wanga’ as a part of the written version of the language doesn’t mean anything, it isn’t a word.
Lew,
Thanks for the explainations. Very informative.
I don’t dispute it is/was an issue… its relative importance as an issue, well I’m afraid that is something that that I dispute.
I just can’t believe that we are quite literally arguing semantics given all the other problems we face currently.
Discussion on Radio Live: it’s classic Key-speak (i.e. barely intelligible, because clarity is the enemy of popularity), but it sounds like he’s backing Laws:
MICHAEL LAWS: Well you know you may actually or your Government – well as you know will be the final arbiter on that. What’s your view of local democracy?
JOHN KEY: Yeah, well we try and listen to local people where we can. The – I don’t know, it’s a bit of an interesting debate, isn’t it?
MICHAEL LAWS: Well seriously – I just, you know, I didn’t mean to talk about that this morning but it will come to you, it will come to the Government because the final decision’s not made by the New Zealand Geographic Board.
But four out of five Wanganui people voted – at the referendum this year, I think 19,000 people voted, and 80 per cent of them said listen, keep things as they are. Is that persuasive for you?
JOHN KEY: Yeah, well, it sounds like a pretty strong argument. I haven’t waded my way through the whole thing other than just sort of occasionally hearing it, you know, bubbling along in the background. But, yeah, I mean in the end it should be ultimately the decision I would have thought for local people.
MICHAEL LAWS: Thank you. I’m delighted to hear that.
“Yeah, well we try and listen to local people where we can.”
Except in Auckland.
Did either Laws or Key manage a single intelligible sentence in that conversation?
Oh and in honour of Michael Laws’ insistence on incorrect spelling he shall henceforth be referred to as: Mikael Laus, Mare of Wanganui (until he learns to spell at which point Michael Laws, Mayor of Whanganui will be appropriate once more).
Rumour has it that Law’s is moving around the council buildings removing the H key from every keyboard he can find.
Probably..
Seems as sensible as banning gang patches and about as useful as making pi=3.0
But then hick legislators are good at representing their electorates………. Apologies in advance to Lew and others associated with the city…
None necessary, Lynn. I’ve made my position on the place and many of its people crystal clear.
L
It’s Lhaws and not Laws.
Here’s a story to cause confusion. It only works on radio, but it made me chuckle:
Radio NZ headline:
“Mair thrilled by decision to put the ‘h’ into Wanganui”
Heh.
Brilliant!
My name originates in France. When a Maori, Eskimo or Ethiopian etc spells or pronounces my name wrongly I politely correct them. I dont however give them the privelege of telling me how it really should be. Its mine and from my culture. Even if there are 4 Eskimos arguing I am wrong versus me (80% versus 20%) they are still wrong.
What about Whanganui belonging to Maori language and culture does Laws not understand? Who knows if Laws is racist? He is definitely ignorant.
I can’t help agreeing with Dr Grant – Whanganui was incorrectly spelt and and its misspelling offended the speakers of the language ‘lending’ the name. Mr Laws needs to take a deep breath and ponder….but, on reflection, it is a vain hope.
And perhaps Mr Key should remain silent on these things until briefed – one can see another clash with the Maori Party heading over the horizon if his government bends to Mr Laws’ position. And Mr Williamson is an ideal minister to make the final decision…..noted for his guarded prudence…..
what a dumb-assed comment from the PM. Maori is one of New Zealand’s national languages, therefore maori place names should be spelt correctly. It is beyond belief that this is an issue.
Use of a national language is not a matter for local referenda . ..
So if the H is brought in, how much will that little exercise cost and who carries the bill ?
a) All Road Signs in Area
b) All Street Maps
c) All Local Business – Change letter head, business cards, etc
d) GPS applications
e) All Companies that correspond with people in the area
One of the Massey Uni boffins should do a costing exercise, if it turns out that it will cost tens of millions of dollars (which it will do), just flick a couple of hundred $K at the local Iwi instead as settlement of the ‘grievance’.
It’s in times like these where we need to cut all frivolous expenditure.
Why would all the road signs in the area need replacing? Are all the roads being renamed to “Whanganui St”?
Won’t that be confusing?
Think of the bigger signs –
Wanganui 20Kms
Mt Egmont 35Kms
Bulls 50Kms
etc.
The ones that litter our country side telling you how far to travel to paradise.
Or the various affected parties could just update their bits and pieces as they fall due for replacement. Road signs are crashed into or vandalised regularly, businesses use their stationery up and re-order more, GPS applications are updated all the time, it doesn’t have to be a biggie.
Mt Egmont eh? Funny you mention that. Somehow we have managed to rename that and not go broke.
“Why would all the road signs in the area need replacing? Are all the roads being renamed to “Whanganui St’?
Won’t that be confusing?”
Funiest post I have read today 🙂
And yes, but it would be worth it to irritate Lhaws.
The District Council should send the bill to Double Dipton, vidiot.
I’m sure his accommodation expenses will cover it, because road signs are the only ones that probably need attention immediately. Changing web presence costs stuff all, and the rest like letterheads can wait until existing stock runs out. As for businesses, well, it’s up to them. I can’t imagine anythign is going to go astray if they don’t use the “h”.
Michael (silent h there) Laws is a total whanker
Re: the “Wh”.
Way back in the 70’s I was fortunate enough to be in the middle of nowhere camping with a group of people which included a few Maori elders. I was young and these old chaps and I spent a few nights sitting around the fire talking shit about NZ, the stars and the stories of the past. I heard some really interesting stories in the timeless word of mouth fashion that legends are passed down via.
During one conversation I asked about the ‘wh’ sound and one of the old boys told me to stop talking like a educated white boy. He said to me;
Back when he was skipping off school speaking Maori in school earned you the cane. He also went on to say that having no written language the spelling of Maori words was entirely at the discretion of the English who were arrogant as hell about their language. He asked me – Do you really think that the arrogant English would have invented a new language construct to represent a sound they heard when that sound as spoken today was already well covered by the “ph” or “f” sound ?
He said the words were different from place to place anyway, and that the whole “wh” nonsense was getting out of hand. (remember this was the 70’s…)
I’m in no way saying having ‘wh’ is wrong for Whanganui, because the owners of that word/name have the right to dictate how it we should say and spell it – but that old boys words stuck with me at the time and ever since then I’ve wondered who really is right and wrong here.
Toad
Im on the side of the people, if they voted for the H, put it in, if the whole country had a vote to change the name of New Zealand to Aotearoa, and people voted for change, I say change it.
If 80% of people in a town vote for something, then do it, I dont think outsiders to the town should have a say, its about community.
lets see .. 170 or so years ago, some white guys turn up on the West Coast by a river and meet some local Maori and say “hi, my names Jon (or is it John), this is a nice place, what’s it called?” .. Wanganui they say .. really, how do you spell that? .. buggered if I know they say .. well then, says Jon, (or is it John), how about if we spell it Wanganui? .. looks ok to us say the locals and there we have it, simple.
BUT, there is always a but, a decade or so later, white guys and brown guys meet up and somewhere (maybe Petone which could be next) and get talking over some rum and roast kumera and they all notice that the Wanganui Maori talk funny .. or is it the other Maori talk funny (hard for me to know because I wasn’t there) anyway, they have a chat and decide that maybe there could be a translation problem. Now, from I have read, the Wanganui Maori were beaten up by both the Poms and fellow Maori during the wars so it was determind that the Wanganui tribes can’t speak properly so they lose again. Maybe if they were stronger, we would have Wangarei and Wakatane etc .. there you go, an alternative version and who was actually there to say I’m wrong.
gee I hear you say .. racist redneck.
ps .. couldn’t be bothered with all the ” ” and ?’s.
It is amazing what makes the news these days, hasn’t NZ got bigger issues to deal with than to worry whether we have an “H” or not in Wanganui?
Are you referring to the important decision on what flag to fly on the harbour bridge?
“hasn’t NZ got bigger issues to deal with than to worry whether we have an “H’ or not in Wanganui?”
Yep. Laws should stop being so angry and sort out the many other problems in Whanganui instead of wasting his time defending a spelling mistake.
So Bored .. what is the correct pronounciation of Wanganui .. what about Whanau.
It would be good for you to compare with say Ms Turia. I wonder if you would be happy to be corrected and pronounce such words her way in future.
jabba: What’s the correct pronunciation of ‘route’? Or ‘tomato’? Depends on the dialect of who’s talking.
L
Lew
This is a good point but as an argument it falls down. There was only one dialect involved in the creation of the written Maori language over a few short years.
burt, I don’t see the point you’re making. Is it that the Wiremu-based orthography in current use does not represent the Whanganui dialect? If so, that is a matter for the Whanganui iwi to take up — not a bunch of latter-day settlers who don’t speak the dialect anyway (bar one word of it which they perversely claim isn’t a MÄori word anyhow).
The people whose dialect it is (that is, those who are guaranteed ‘possession’ of it under Article 2 of the Treaty) have made their decision. That’s the core rebuttal of all dialect-based arguments against Whanganui.
L
Lew
I think we are saying the same thing in different ways. I have no issues with the ‘h’. Really as far as I can see it’s the right of the people who claim ownership of the name to describe how it is said and ultimately how we should spell it.
I totally agree that the same words are said differently in different dialects and believe that was the case in NZ with Maori in the 1800’s. For some reason now we need to standardise it – this I disagree with. I don’t think it’s likely the English wrote down anything other than what they heard at the time and therefore separate dialects may not be adequately catered for with a single spelling as defined by a small group of 1800’s English speakers.
As far as I’m concerned if some Maori want to say ‘Wanau’ and others ‘Fanau’ then so what. Who are we to say that because it is starts with ‘Wh’ if must be said ‘Fa’ when we don’t allow alternate spellings.
Even though I dont particularly like her, I certainly would take her advice and be happy to be corrected. Its her language, not mine.
I thought this thread was about Ken Mair
thank god for Lew .. you are so right.
can you imagine a bloke from Liverpool going to any town/city in Yorkshire and telling the locals they don’t pronounce English correctly? bif/bash/smack.
What you are saying is the crux of what the problem is. The variation on how to say English words is hard enough so how an I suppose to get Maori correct when they can’t get it it the same themselves .. we need more Lews.
Jabba, try to keep up. If you don’t know how to pronounce or spell a language, leave it to those what do.
Honestly. It’s not rocket surgery.
L
Or Rochelle’s. She routinely corrects her Maori surrogate fathers pronunciation with the full blessing of his mother and family. Lyn thinks that my spoken english is terrible because I know the words, their meaning, but I’ve only ever seen them written. I seem to be under tuition during most discussions with her.
On the other hand, I’m a master of the computer dialects. I lost count of how many I knew in my 20’s at about 45, and I routinely pick up 4 or 5 per year. I just finished sucking up python which took about 5 days to go from ignorance to literate. Next up is the WPF language xaml because I need to get directx into web pages.
Different people, different skills.
JP .. it’s Kenneth
“Correct” spelling can only exist if there is an existing written language. Even then correct spelling is contentious.
Maori was never a written language. It cannot therefore have a spelling.
All languages in constant and useful use are always changing in pronunciation,
and, if written, changing in spelling..
All languages, worldwide, have undergone huge changes in word adoption, adaptation, pronunciation and (God help us,spelling).
All languages have dialectical differences.
Spelling does not change pronunciation.
The way most pakeha pronounce “Taupo” or “Tauranga” is not the way most Maori
pronounce it (depending which part of the country they come from ,of course.)
In culturally secure countries pronunciation, let alone spelling , is a non event.
This whole topic is about Ken Mair trying to make himself important.
Peter, this issue rests on the question “When was the MÄori language?”
The answer is that it is. MÄori was not a written language, but it is one now (and has been one for almost a couple hundred years). There is now a universally-accepted orthography and lexicography, and a huge amount of documentation establishing the provenance and correctness of same. It is one of the most thoroughly-documented and well-used indigenous minority languages in the world. There is quite literally no credible dissent to these well-established norms. Under this system, there is one (1) spelling of the word meaning ‘big harbour’ after which the city at the mouth of the river of the same name was called, and it has an h in it.
This is not some countercultural mumbo-jumbo; this is quite simply how language works.
But, hey — it’s cool, if it gets your wheels spinning, keep at it. Your (and Michael Laws’) position is simply not supported by evidence. The more you keep at it, the more obvious you make this. Please — have at it.
L
Peter: So? Your argument shows an abysmal ignorance of the history of the english written language.
On that basis you’d also say that english has the same issue. It wasn’t formalised until the 18th century when the first dictionaries were written. Less than a century before Maori.
It wasn’t until the 16th century that any significant body of written literature emerged in english. It is largely unreadable to any modern reader because the spelling was pretty much up to the taste of the author. I’d suggest having a look in the rare books section of your local university or major public library.
English was and still is an oral language. The biggest group of english speakers in world are in the indian subcontinent. While they can out-talk almost any group that I know, it is as hard to understand them as it is to understand someone from Alabama.
The biggest written language in the world, Mandarin bears little resemblance to the spoken form of the language. For that matter the most ancient written languages in the western world like Latin and classical Greek show the same characteristics. We can read them, but we have no idea about how they were spoken – just a lot of guesswork.
Written languages only have a passing relationship with the spoken. What we are talking about here is a written bastardization of a place name by mapmakers who couldn’t ‘hear’ how the locals pronounced a name. Since it is a local Maori name, they should be able to determine the spelling.
Your arguments are just spurious. You claim an authority that simply doesn’t exist, about something you know little about. Personally I just ascribe it to an inherent mindless bigotry.
peterlepaysan
I think spelling for place names is important. Spelling on maps and road signs is a proxy for the authoritative source of the spelling.
Pronunciation on the other hand, with you on that, being anal against different dialects is IMHO a sign of cultural immaturity.
Yep… There is a reason for having an authoritative name for people, things and places. Personally I always pronounce Onehunga as One-hung-a and I won’t even attempt to to describe how I pronounce Newton or Ponsonby.
“…I won’t even attempt to to describe how I pronounce Newton or Ponsonby.”
This I want to know.
“Maori was never a written language.”
This assertion is simply not true. Maori is a written language and has been since the early 19th century.
oh lew lew lew ,, Maori pronounce their own language with all sorts of variations but I guess you know best.
Jabba, that’s my point. That they say things all different-like.
L