Act’s dishonest Youth offending policy

Written By: - Date published: 8:42 am, July 11th, 2023 - 56 comments
Categories: act, crime, law, law and "order" - Tags:

Act clearly wants to nurture hate and division in its pursuit of political support.  And hot on its suggestion that young offenders who commit serious offences should be forced to wear ankle bracelets they now say that their support for increasing the age for youth court appearances to 18 was wrong and they now wish to bring it back to 17.

The change to the Oranga Tamariki Act was passed by the National Government in 2017 and Act supported it.  Interestingly Labour voted against the law change but for unrelated reasons.

Act leader David Seymour was interviewed yesterday by Lisa Owen.  He conceded that Act supported the law change but said that this was because they were told that the worst offenders would still go before the courts.   He then referred to a case where a 17 year old that beat a 78 year old to within an inch of his life with his shins sticking through his skin went through the Youth Justice system despite the protestations of the police prosecutor.  His conclusion was that the system was failing.

To his third point Lisa Owen was naughty and quoted actual facts to Seymour.  Like the April 2023 Youth Justice Indicators Summary report which concluded:

There have been encouraging long-term trends for most indicators between 2011/12 and 2021/22. These include:

  • The overall offending rates for children and young people decreased by 63% and 64%, respectively.
  • The number of children and young people whose offending was serious enough to lead to a family group conference (FGC) or court action decreased by 55% and 59%, respectively.
  • The rate of Youth Court appearances decreased by 65%.
  • The number of children and young people remanded in custody decreased by 36%.

Seymour responded by counter facts and a claim that the victim should be focused on.  His facts should be subject to the accuracy of his recollection of when the law was changed, which was wrong.

He said that it had been changed in 2016.  Act’s policy paper also mentions this date.  The inclusion of 18 year olds occurred by an amendment passed in 2017.

The case he is referring to appears to be this one.  Usually if a 17 year old is charged with a serious offence, which includes murder, manslaughter or a schedule 1A offence including aggravated burglary as in this case the charge is automatically transferred to the District Court.  Seventeen year olds who commit the most serious types of offences are dealt with by the District Court although there is an intricacy which means this is not inevitable.

The law is complicated.  Law is like that.  In the case Seymour refers to it appears that because the 17 year old was jointly charged with a 16 year old and the Crown wanted one trial, not two, the case stayed in the Youth Court. But for this the 17 year old would have been dealt with by the District Court given the seriousness of the charge that he faced.

Seymour’s implication that all 17 year olds charged with serious offending such as aggravated burglary are dealt with in the Youth Court is disingenuous to put it mildly.

Seymour does not care about the evidence or the expert advice which suggests that 17 year olds should be dealt with in a more therapeutic way.  Or that our obligations under the United Nations Convention of the rights of the Child, which New Zealand signed up to in 1993, which states that the age of 18 should be the upper age for juvenile justice.

So there are lots of holes to pick here.  Not that this is of Act’s concern.  They just want old people salivating at the suggestion that there are too many young people performing horrendous acts and we should lock them all up and subject them to cruel and unusual punishment.  I can confidently state that no one involved in Youth Justice will vote for Act but these people are not their target market.

The world is a complex place and there are all sorts of nuances that make the policy designed for talk back radio almost inevitably the wrong one.  Some parties do not care and will promise to wreak havoc as long as there is political advantage to gain.  Act is clearly one of those parties.

56 comments on “Act’s dishonest Youth offending policy ”

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  1. ianmac 1
    11 July 2023 at 9:35 am

    We are not the target market. Not just old people are. There are dairy owners for example who want the youth punished

  2. Thinker 2
    11 July 2023 at 10:06 am

    The top x% now have the bulk of the wealth, leaving the bottom with less than nothing and all the stresses and strains that go with that.

    In short, a growing percentage of youth are set up to fail and this policy will ensure they are soundly punished for, essentially, not being part of the elite

    All they need to do is privatise the justice system and those who've been robbed of everything, including hope, will still be able to play a valuable role in funneling more wealth to those who already have the Lions share…

  3. tWiggle 3
    11 July 2023 at 10:14 am

    This Guardian Australia opinion piece asking "Why is it legal for politicians and 'voice to parliament' campaigners to lie to you?”

    In some Australian states, but not at Federal level, it is illegal to say untrue things in political campaigns. To date, rebuttal of lies has come from other parties or the media. Now with the churn of the news cycle, lies can go viral, and the rebuttal lags behind, lost in the chaff. Mud sticks. Confirmational bias rules.

    I can't think of an equivalent law in NZ. We need one. Not to mention the US and the UK.

  4. Patricia Bremner 4
    11 July 2023 at 10:16 am

    This is just "Talk Back" fodder, which detracts from real news and winds the angry up.

    He is a dangerous man, in that he appears mild and reasonable, but that mask is false, and should be removed to show the actual intent far more, imo.

  5. AB 5
    11 July 2023 at 11:09 am

    ACT are not trying to solve the problem of youth crime – it doesn't bother them and mostly they will be pretty insulated from it because of their private wealth, where they live and what they do for a job. It's completely obvious but worth re-stating – they are engaged in a class project to change the government, regain control of the economy and reset it to favour their interests through lower taxes, re-inflating the housing market, lower wages, higher immigration and removing compliance costs (such as doing anything about climate change) from business. They will do whatever works to achieve that goal – don't expect anything from them that resembles a rational or reasonable approach to solving an actual problem. Fighting them will always be shadow boxing until their class interests are laid bare.

    • Patricia Bremner 5.1
      11 July 2023 at 12:12 pm

      yes Agree AB. Worse Act was born to pull National further to the right.

      • Anne 5.1.1
        12 July 2023 at 10:11 am

        To be more precise:

        A group of very rich tycoons which included Alan Gibbs (ring-leader), Craig Heatley, Trevor Farmer (mate of Gibbs) and several other well known rich figures got their heads together and created ACT to be a political party to the right of National. Their motivation was prompted by the realisation that this new electoral system called MMP was threatening ultimate extinction for National.

        ACT was born and Roger Douglas and Derek Quigley were invited to be the joint foundation leaders. Both brought in their former supporters from Labour and National and initially the party showed promise (if market forces was your thing) but soon the dinosaurs, the red necks and the generally politically unsavoury were attracted into the party and its been all downhill in the form of populist bullshit and dirty politics ever since.

    • Incognito 5.2
      11 July 2023 at 9:09 pm

      Exactly!

      I quote my comment (https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-18-06-2023/#comment-1955049) again, which happened to be a reply to you wink

      Law & Order is one of the foundational pillars of National’s political power. National needs the gangs to give legitimacy to some of their policies and their approach to social welfare and beneficiaries. Gangs are portrayed, by National and ACT, as the ‘common enemy’ in and of NZ. It is intrinsically divisive and polarising but there you have it.

  6. PsyclingLeft.Always 6
    11 July 2023 at 11:16 am

    Someone..who's been there.

    VOYCE – Whakarongomai Mai's national care experience lead Tupua Urlich, who experienced physical and mental abuse during his 12 years in care, said ACT's policy felt like a "slap in the face".

    Urlich said incarceration will cause more harm.

    "You place young people in these environments at a young age, with a background of trauma, that is the only space where they're going to develop relationships … when they get out of prison they're going to fall back on those people, and it's called a university of crime for a reason.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/493476/act-s-plan-for-17-year-olds-to-be-treated-as-adults-out-of-touch-with-reality-advocate-says

    And…aye : (

    NAct….authoritarian and punitive. Well, that about covers them !

    https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-09-07-2023/#comment-1958713

  7. observer 7
    11 July 2023 at 11:44 am

    Sadly, it's a free hit in the media for ACT (and as the OP says, thoroughly dishonest. Even National won't agree to lower the age).

    Reporting of youth crime usually follows the same pattern:

    1) A crime is captured on camera (cellphone or CCTV). A ram raid, for example. These are very unpleasant experiences for the victims, and it's entirely understandable that they express their anger in response. I would too (and have done, in a previous experience).

    2) Somewhere way down the news report it will say something like "two teenagers were apprehended by police shortly afterwards, and will appear in the youth court".

    3) Then the media story ends. There are no cameras in the youth court. No dramatic pictures for telly.

    4) Therefore … the public assume there are no consequences for offending, because the consequences are not reported.

    Yes, there are a few exceptions, when the crime is so serious that there is a follow-up story in the news. But 95% of "youth offending" in the media does not fall into that category.

    So in the end, it's shocking pictures painting a thousand words, but no words at all about what happens next. Ideal fertile ground for politicians using fear to peddle misinformation.

    • pat 7.1
      11 July 2023 at 6:40 pm

      What do you think should be done about youth offending?….not high level, but practical responses?

    • Drowsy M. Kram 7.2
      11 July 2023 at 7:10 pm

      4. Provide Opportunities for Children and Youth

      Youth Crime Action Plan

      Multi-agency approach to reduce youth crime at hub [3 December 2022]

      While their [troubled youths’] reasons for wanting to spend time at the bus hub were varied, as were their reasons for offending, quite often home was chaotic, unstable and possibly a dangerous place to be, he said.

      "Some of these stories are quite confronting, even for a seasoned cop like myself."

      Having face-to-face conversations when they were not in an excitable state was the key to reducing crime, he said.

      "The evidence tells us that the answers to reducing crime lie in communities."

      How government's youth crime rhetoric misses the bigger picture
      [10 September 2022]

      "We are dealing with that crisis of 'hey a kid's just driven into a dairy' – we can do a lot more to prevent it" – youth worker Aaron Hendry
      …
      And for governments of all stripes, the challenge will be investing in the longer-term, delayed payoff strategies those on the ground say will work.

      Takes a village to raise a Kiwi, but who has the time/resources these days? Not the 50% who find themselves one the 'wrong' side of The Table – there but for the grace of God…

      The Side Eye’s Two New Zealands: The Table [16 August 2022]

      • pat 7.2.1
        11 July 2023 at 7:24 pm

        Yes , I think we know many of the causes of youth offending, but having created many of them, how do we respond to both the challenge of ceasing to create more BUT also coping with those who currently exist?

        • Drowsy M. Kram 7.2.1.1
          11 July 2023 at 10:00 pm

          Re "coping", locking up offending youths might kick our growing problem down the road (sound familiar?) – the trick would be to ensure that it didn't increase the magnitude of future challenges in an increasingly splintered society.

          The ambiguities of coercion: Mapping adolescents' experiences of coercion in institutional everyday life [21 March 2023]

          Mental health, welfare or justice: An introductory global overview of differences between countries [NZ included] in the scale and approach to secure placements of children and young people [13 April 2022]

          The option of investing heavily in educative, health and rehabilitative family-focused strategies, sans increased incarceration, would require politically unpalatable changes to tax policy, so the problem of youth offending, like many others, will continue to grow until it's beyond our control, if it isn't already.

          Forget boot camps – early intervention is the key to reducing youth offending, new study says [12 June 2018]

          It’s never too early, never too late: A discussion paper on preventing youth offending in New Zealand [12 June 2018; PDF]

          Page 4. Programmes for young offenders
          Some commentators argued that tougher responses and harsher penalties for youth offenders were required. Critics said that these measures would not result in reduced offending rates or give young people the skills they need to live productive lives.

          • pat 7.2.1.1.1
            12 July 2023 at 4:39 pm

            So you have provided examples of what you think we shouldnt do but no suggestion as to what should be done.

            Therein lies the issue….the problem cannot be ignored.

            • Drowsy M. Kram 7.2.1.1.1.1
              12 July 2023 at 5:12 pm

              My preferance would be to invest heavily in educative, health and rehabilitative family-focused strategies, sans increased incarceration.

              It’s never too early, never too late: A discussion paper on preventing youth offending in New Zealand [12 June 2018; PDF]

              • pat …
                12 July 2023 at 5:38 pm

                So increased intervention within the family environment by some outside agency….assuming that is accepted….and if the youth continues to reoffend?

                • Drowsy M. Kram …
                  12 July 2023 at 8:34 pm

                  “You can see it coming” – Opportunities to improve child welfare and Family Court proceedings to reduce the risk of children offending in childhood and beyond [2021]
                  These included shortages in resources, high thresholds for support, poor collaboration and coordination between services, chronic delays, and poor oversight over child welfare and child offending cases. Further concerns specifically related to child offending proceedings, such as ambiguous referral processes, were also identified. The need for addressing the sociostructural conditions underlying child welfare concerns and providing earlier and more effective intervention was also highlighted. Urgent addressing of this “breakdown across the whole system” is critical to ensure more positive outcomes for Aotearoa’s most vulnerable children and families and reducing extensive social and economic harm.

                  So increased intervention within the family environment by some outside agency….assuming that is accepted….

                  Yes – increased and earlier intervention/assistance, preferably within a family environment if such exists. Interventions with low acceptance and/or efficacy rates can be refined – always room for improvement.

                  A Theory of MYND [2022; PDF]
                  The current project aimed to evaluate MYND, a programme for 14-17 year old boys who had offended and were considered at high risk of continuing down a “prison pipeline”.
                  …
                  Some suggestions were also made regarding the development of other strengths-based programmes for youth who have offended in New Zealand.

                  ….and if the youth continues to reoffend?

                  Then he/she may be lost, perhaps irretrievably so – can't save 'em all, but that's no reason not to try, imho. A question of priorities?

                  Profiles of Children and Young Persons Who Commit Serious Offences [2022]
                  Considering the social and economic impact of serious offending, and the effectiveness and cost-saving potential of early intervention programmes, it is baffling that policymakers worldwide are yet to fully embrace evidence-based crime prevention policies.

                  • pat …
                    12 July 2023 at 8:45 pm

                    You are aware the agency charged with family interventions and wraparound services for troubled youth is Oranga Tamariki…..more of the same?

                    • Drowsy M. Kram …
                      12 July 2023 at 8:59 pm

                      No idea what Oranga Tamariki’s success rate is, or what might qualify as a successful intervention.

                      Interventions with low efficacy rates can be refined – always room for improvement, resources/priorities permitting. Where there’s a will…

                      Since the ‘youth offending’ problem and its solutions are fundamentally people-based, this will take time. All the more reason to go hard, and go early, imho.

                    • pat …
                      12 July 2023 at 9:19 pm

                      Oranga Tamariki's performance has been less than acceptable to all ….to such a degree that its disestablishment has been called for.

                      And all with a budget of in excess of a billion a year…one would think that such funding would be able to at least make some positive impact

                    • Drowsy M. Kram …
                      12 July 2023 at 9:32 pm

                      And all with a budget of in excess of a billion a year…one would think that such funding would be able to at least make some positive impact

                      So no positive impact at all then? Sounds almost as dire as the growing problem of youth offending. Back to the drawing board?

                      A new report from children’s commissioner Andrew Becroft is calling for an immediate overhaul of Oranga Tamariki – largely through a transfer of power to Māori.

                      The report, released yesterday, found Māori were poorly served by the current systems, and that racism and inequality is entrenched and reproduced for pēpi, tamariki and rangatahi Māori by these systems.

                      https://thespinoff.co.nz/atea/24-11-2020/childrens-commissioner-calls-to-disestablish-oranga-tamariki

                    • pat …
                      12 July 2023 at 9:39 pm

                      The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results

                    • Drowsy M. Kram …
                      12 July 2023 at 9:50 pm

                      I could live with "a transfer of power [and resources] to Māori", although that might be a little too different for some.

                    • pat …
                      12 July 2023 at 11:08 pm

                      That has been one of the calls…and it may be successful, but where is the detailed proposal of how it would work?

                      It is difficult to support any proposal when the how is missing.

                    • Drowsy M. Kram …
                      13 July 2023 at 7:30 am

                      Perhaps evolving strategies to deal with child and youth offending have not been the utter failure some would have us believe.

                      Youth Justice Indicators Summary Report
                      [April 2023; PDF; already mentioned in Micky's post]
                      Over the last decade offending by children and young people has decreased substantially

                      There have been similar decreases for tamariki and rangatahi Māori over the same period

                      Over the last decade, there have also been substantial decreases in reoffending rates for young people, including rangatahi Māori

                      Tamariki and rangatahi Māori continue to be overrepresented in the youth justice system

                      Children and young people who offend often have complex needs
                      However, research undertaken by Oranga Tamariki shows that being involved in care and protection does not mean a child or young person will become involved with the youth justice system. In fact, the vast majority [82% of all 18-year olds; 76% of Māori] of those with care and protection statutory involvement are never involved in the youth justice system.

                      Left out a couple of points, but you get the idea. Is there's room for improvement? Of course, which was the intent of Becroft's call, imo.

                      That has been one of the calls…

                      Yes, that has been the call of Andrew Becroft (among others), someone who appears quite knowledgeable about initiatives to improve the prospects of youth and child offenders. Factors that can lead to offending behaviour are not particularly mysterious, and the effects of COVID strain are still showing for factors 3 – 5:
                      – Abuse, neglect and contact with care and protection system
                      – Early offending, victimisation and contact with the justice system
                      – Mental health
                      – Household and community financial resources
                      – Disengagement from education

                      …and it may be successful, but where is the detailed proposal of how it would work?

                      It is difficult to support any proposal when the how is missing.

                      Government takes action to bring down youth crime
                      [6 Sept 2022]

                      Budget23 law and order spending: Early youth crime intervention scheme expanded [18 May 2023]
                      "Only 28 percent of those referred from the fast-track, or 'circuit breaker', pilot through to the multi-agency teams have been referred again, showing the impact quick support can have," Davis said.

                      "The approach ensures once a child is identified or apprehended by police for offending behaviour, information is shared with Oranga Tamariki within 24 hours, a referral is completed, and an agreed plan developed by community providers within 48 hours."

                      Transferring more power and resources to local community programmes seems such a sensible strategy – Lab and Nat MPs have been banging on about something similar for decades.

                      Youth Offending Strategy [2002; PDF]
                      Preventing and reducing offending and re-offending by children and young people – Te Haonga
                      …
                      Building the capacity of Mäori and Pacific communities to prevent and respond to offending by their children and young people.

                      Youth crime action plan 2013–2023
                      We will establish interagency connections and community networks to identify those at risk of re‑offending at the earliest possible time. This includes government agencies working together and linking with hapū, iwi, Māori communities and providers, and community‑led initiatives.

                    • pat …
                      13 July 2023 at 9:05 am

                      "Left out a couple of points, but you get the idea. Is there's room for improvement? Of course, which was the intent of Becroft's call, imo."

                      Think to say 'there is room for improvement' is somewhat of an understatement….as you yourself note (and as the dates of your linked documents show) this has been understood for decades and yet we remain where we are.

                      Back to Einstein's quote

                    • Drowsy M. Kram …
                      13 July 2023 at 2:00 pm

                      Youth Justice Indicators Summary Report
                      [April 2023; PDF; already mentioned in Micky's post]
                      The report’s purpose is to help those involved in youth justice understand system wide trends and issues. We hope it will continue to encourage discussion and action towards important goals: effectively holding children and young people who offend to account in a way that recognises their needs and vulnerability while making a positive difference in their lives.

                      …and yet we remain where we are.

                      But do we Pat? Rates of youth offending have decreased “substantially” over the last decade. Might (mis)perception be trumping facts – many seem intent on doing a Minnie Bannister.

                      One youth offender is, of course, one too many, so there's certainly a place for new and early interventions that would result from a greater transfer of power to Māori, as advocated by Becroft and other experts. And there are any number of reasons to have doubts about such a strategy. Still, preferable to boot camp insanity, imho.

                      Back to Einstein's quote

                      Re your Einstein misattribution, "a favorite of politicians (and pretty much everybody else)", the closest I can find is:

                      A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move toward higher levels.

                      Here are a couple more genuine Einstein quotes.

                      "Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius – and a lot of courage – to move in the opposite direction."

                      "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."

                      Makes you think?

                    • Drowsy M. Kram …
                      13 July 2023 at 2:21 pm

                      Oops – scratch the last two – misquoting is easier than I realised blush

                    • pat …
                      13 July 2023 at 7:53 pm

                      Add another misattributed quote to the discussion…."lies, damned lies and statistics"

                      The statistics, the interpretation/application of is widely contested are not what those on the receiving end or those voting consider..

                      "But the varying ways to count and then interpret police data means it’s worth taking all claims about crime rates rising or falling with a pinch of salt – no matter which politician they’re coming from."

                      https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/the-whole-truth/130965380/the-whole-truth-has-violent-crime-gone-up-under-labour

                    • Drowsy M. Kram …
                      13 July 2023 at 10:03 pm

                      Add another misattributed quote to the discussion….

                      We've been discussing the decreasing rates of youth offending (a trend documented during the 5th National and 6th Labour governments), plus strategies to further reduce youth offending, for example the transfer of power to Māori advocated by youth offending expert Becroft.

                      The statistics, the interpretation/application of is widely contested are not what those on the receiving end or those voting consider..

                      Don't know about "those on the receiving end", but this voter is concerned with statistical trends, as it would seem are you.

                      I'm happy to consider any evidence-based case that the Youth Justice
                      Indicators Summary Report (April 2023)                       gives a misleading impression of trends in youth offending rates, but don't you think it's curious that ACT's highly intelligent deputy leader Brooke van Velden appears to be struggling to comprehend the reported trends?

                      Consequences v support – ACT, Greens on youth offending [10 July 2023]

                      "We do need to deal with the facts when wanting to put into place public policy that will make people feel safer and genuinely achieve those outcomes."

                      Swarbrick said that while youth offending had trended downwards, those who are committing crimes tend to be offending more.

                      "That, to me, sends the signal that we need to be sending far more resources into supporting those young people in their lives."

                      The Auckland Central MP also told Breakfast she has a "fundamental frustration" with how issues like crime and truancy are discussed in politics.

                      "We're not talking about how we support these young people into ensuring that they are able to make those good decisions."

                      "Instead, we seem to be focused on punishment, and I don't think that is beneficial when it comes to the evidence, but it also very clearly is about politicians operating from a soundbite media environment."

                      “Focused on punishment“, eh? Maybe Swarbrick as a point – you know, ‘boot camps’ and all. Still, even National can learn – apparently.

                      https://www.newsroom.co.nz/national-learns-lesson-from-boot-camps-with-new-policy

                    • pat …
                      13 July 2023 at 10:32 pm

                      We 'may' be discussing a declining trend in youth offending….we however dont know.

                      What many do know from experience is that youth offending dosnt appear to be declining…and that despite years of supportive practice the degree of offence certainly dosnt appear to be decreasing.

                      So we are back at the beginning…we know the factors that are prevalent in youth offenders lives (and to date appear unwilling/unable to address them so will create more)…but we also are failing to competently address those that continue to offend despite the current level of support.

                      I suspect Chloe Swarbrick is no more frustrated than the victim(s) who are constantly told that youth offending is trending down.

                    • Drowsy M. Kram …
                      14 July 2023 at 11:00 am

                      Why We See What We Want to See [9 July 2019]
                      The neuropsychology of motivated perception

                      We 'may' be discussing a declining trend in youth offending….we however dont know.

                      We 'may' have different ways of (not) knowing.

                      If you don't accept the reported statistics showing that rates of youth offending have been decreasing for at least 10 years, and you're unable or unwilling to provide an evidence-based case to the contrary, then we must agree to disagree on the facts of the matter.

                      "Yet, to the great credit of the Herald and Open Justice, we find a contrary narrative: the number of children before the courts has actually declined in recent years. And that is not all. If you go to the longer-term statistics at the Ministry of Justice website you will find that the number of young people before the courts peaked at nearly 5,000 in 2007-2008 and has been on a downward trajectory ever since, now standing at about 1,500."

                      https://peterdavisnz.com/2022/10/22/crime-and-media-perception-and-reality/

                      Frustrating, isn't it wink Cheer up – the trend may be reversing.

                      I suspect Chloe Swarbrick is no more frustrated than the victim(s) who are constantly told that youth offending is trending down.

                      Swarbrick is an effective politician – probably connects best with the yoof. And yes, the trend in youth offending rates is no use to victims left and right, just as encouraging trends in cancer survivorship are little consolation to those who lose loved ones to the disease.

                      Fwiw, imho NZ is headed for societal disruptions that will make the immediate effects of the pandemic seem like small beans, and youth offending will be (a small) part of that. Kiwis will long for those 'Covid days' when we (mostly) pulled together. I'd like to believe that, despite our isolation, we have the collective expertise/resources to think our way through, if not out of, the worst effects of past errors, although in the happy event that's true, do we have the will?

                      Time may tell, if we're lucky, and we don't know how lucky we were.

                    • pat …
                      14 July 2023 at 1:46 pm

                      As my linked article stated crime statistic are (mis) used by many and as we dont have access to the raw data nor the methodology no one (outside) can know what the statistics represent…. the parameters can be (and frequently are) set to achieve the desired results.

                      Statistics aside, youth offending has remained an unresolved issue for our society for my entire lifetime and the lack of progress is noted by a wide range of those involved in the field….that should be telling us something.

                    • Drowsy M. Kram …
                      14 July 2023 at 4:01 pm

                      Statistics aside, youth offending has remained an unresolved issue for our society for my entire lifetime and the lack of progress is noted by a wide range of those involved in the field….that should be telling us something.

                      Yes, putting those troublesome statistics aside, youth offending is one of many evolving issues that has remained "unresolved" our entire lifetimes.

                      Perhaps youth offending, like adult offending, is part of the human condition, and cannot be 'resolved', only minimised. So a shout out to all those around the world who work at this daunting coalface.

                      https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/youth-violence

                      In Aotearoa NZ, Andrew Becroft, a noted expert on youth offending, believes that transferring power and resources to Māori would achieve progress in the field. What should that be telling us?

                      Children’s commissioner calls to disestablish Oranga Tamariki [24 November 2020]

                      “I believe only Māori can do this for Māori in a way that will deliver the best and enduring outcomes for tamariki.” Andrew Becroft says in the report.

                      To do this, the prime minister and cabinet are being urged to transfer power and resources from government to Māori entities that are determined by Māori.

                      Are there other countries that we should be looking to for ideas? Belgium's policies on youth crime are well-regarded by some.

                      The phenomenon [juvenile delinquency] is no longer considered a priority within the framework of the National Security Plan, but the Policy Document of 2011 from the Government makes it a community matter. The Communities will decide by themselves about the nature of the measures which can be taken regarding minors who have committed an fact qualified as an offence. The department of Justice remains qualified for questions related to the procedure. Some working groups have been set up and gather on a regular basis in order to make this a community issue.

                      A community matter, eh? "It takes a village to raise a child."

                    • pat …
                      14 July 2023 at 4:36 pm

                      Yes it does take a village to raise a child….unfortunately most of us dont live in villages.

                      I have some sympathy for the concept of devolving the problem to the 'community' level but I suspect that many would find some of the community solutions unacceptable (which community?)…and ultimately the state sets the parameters.

                    • Drowsy M. Kram …
                      14 July 2023 at 6:19 pm

                      "It takes a village to raise a child" is a proverb that means that an entire community of people must provide for and interact positively with children for those children to experience and grow in a safe and healthy environment.

                      Yes it does take a village to raise a child….unfortunately most of us dont live in villages.

                      Most lived in villages when and where the phrase originated – I can't get too hung up on the literal meaning of 'village'.

                      In this perspective, we first define what we mean by the “village” and then provide some discussion about what we mean by the term “families”. The need to move past traditional practice silos and how the village might work with families is then discussed using two, brief case studies.

                      I have some sympathy for the concept of devolving the problem to the 'community' level but I suspect that many would find some of the community solutions unacceptable (which community?)…and ultimately the state sets the parameters.

                      I suspect that objections would flow freely from some 'quarters'. Change can be scary, hence the attraction of the status quo – BAWU even – as the inevitable impacts of self-centred inaction mount up.

                      Unmet healthcare need and the significance of charity hospitals in Aotearoa New Zealand [19 August 2022]

                      Where to next?
                      Recent governments may have pursued somewhat less overt neoliberal health policies but nevertheless the USEHN has continued to grow: the wealth gap has also become very large.

                      Māori, Pasifika, and those in poverty still have deplorable disadvantages in health and wellbeing, with unacceptably high rates of some chronic diseases, and with poor health intervention rates, treatment outcomes, and life expectancy.

                      These appalling statistics are due partly to poor access to health services but also to disadvantageous socio-economic determinants of health (poor nutrition, inadequate housing, insecure employment, inadequate welfare benefits).

                      "Appalling statistics" – in the eye of the beholder, surely wink

                    • pat …
                      14 July 2023 at 6:55 pm

                      Appalling statistics is not a phrase I used…indeed it was one you yourself posted.

                      You may not wish to get hung up on the phrase 'village' but I would suggest that the phrase loses its meaning once the village fragments into 'communities'…gang culture is a community..one outside the wider social norms…surely you dont suggest that the criminal gang "community" should be determining our youth crime response?

                    • Drowsy M. Kram …
                      14 July 2023 at 7:10 pm

                      Appalling statistics is not a phrase I used…indeed it was one you yourself posted.

                      Yes, I was quoting from the NZMJ paper on unmet healthcare need – some may consider it relevant to the contentious matter of youth offending.

                      I would suggest that the (presumably considered) definition of 'village' developed by the Australian, Norwegian and US authors of the linked article is satisfactory – again we can agree to disagree.

                      It Takes a Village to Raise a Child: Understanding and Expanding the Concept of the “Village” [11 March 2022]

                      …surely you dont suggest that the criminal gang “community” should be determining our youth crime response?

                      Surely I don’t, although I acknowledge the good work of former gang members in this area.

                • pat …
                  14 July 2023 at 7:26 pm

                  "This requires an environment where children's voices are taken seriously (2) and where multiple people (the “villagers”) including parents, siblings, extended family members, neighbors, teachers, professionals, community members and policy makers, care for a child. All these ‘villagers' may provide direct care to the children and/or support the parent in looking after their children. However, the village, in many countries today, is dissipated and fragmented and individuals are increasingly isolated and are not eager to ask for, or provide help to, others. Family breakdown, economic pressures, long working hours and increased mobility have all contributed to families feeling less connected to extended family members and others around them (3)."

                  your link

                  And if one or more of those listed are not providing that support, what is the remedy?

                  One argument is to place the child in an environment where that support exists….but that may require removing the child (children) from the non supportive environment…something that many rail against.

                  • Drowsy M. Kram …
                    15 July 2023 at 12:00 pm

                    And if one or more of those listed are not providing that support, what is the remedy?

                    Best to ask those with direct experience of remedies, but I'll have a go. If the lack of (family?) support constitutes an immediate unmitigable danger to the child/children, then a minimally disruptive transfer to a more supportive environment seems a no-brainer (from my perspective), in parallel with intensive state and/or community interventions that foster provision of support with a view to reuniting the family asap. Can't succeed in every case, but imho that's a poor reason for not making an effort.

                    Longer term, partnerships between state services and communities could channel more resources into enhancing support and addressing factors known to erode supportive living environments. Such resource use might be a factor-dependent step too far for many, and the roll out of improvements to existing strategies is 'glacial' – sound familiar?

                    Many may, as you say, rail against "removing the child (children) from the non-supportive environment" – seems there's always (at least) two sides to every 'story'.

                    Calling for fundamental change [4 December 2022]
                    This is a Treaty thing, it’s a moral thing, but it’s also just a practical thing. I think this is how we actually address the harm which the child protection system has caused Māori for generations now. Taking back authority is our right, and it’s the only way we’ll ever end the hurt.

                    The Misery-Go-Round [13 August 2022]
                    New Zealand’s child protection agency, Oranga Tamariki, is constantly in the headlines for all the wrong reasons. But is it the institution that is flawed or the society that expects it to fix bigger problems? Aaron Smale unravels the causes of decades-long failure and what is needed to finally address systemic issues.
                    …
                    Reid’s documentary opened up another conversation — maybe the state’s interventions weren’t so necessary. Maybe the state’s interventions were actually causing harm.
                    …
                    The powerful statements did not end there. “Crucially,” Boshier wrote, “the Ministry must be guided by the legislative presumption that tamariki are entitled to know and be cared for by their parents.”
                    …
                    But in their focus on the child-protection system, the reports often overlooked many of the political shifts and societal changes that shaped the response of Oranga Tamariki and its predecessors over decades. By overlooking this context, the mountain of official condemnation landed only on the one government institution.

                    How did an agency with such coercive powers go so far off the rails? Why are Māori so overrepresented in the statistics? Who should have the authority to remove a child and on what basis? What should intervention look like?

                    To put the question another way: How did the people who tried to remove the baby in Hastings end up behaving in such a way that one of their close friends didn’t recognise them?
                    …
                    If the well-being of children is the measure, then at what point should the state or some other entity intervene? What should the purpose of that intervention be and how is the well-being of the child measured? To what extent is the well-being of a child simply a reflection of the well-being of their whānau?
                    …
                    It was then that a marked step-up began in removing “at risk” Māori children from their families. “The only answer seemed to be extract, extract, extract,” says Tomoana. “Take the kids out. Put them somewhere for the night. Then it became a week. Then a year. Whānau wasn’t even thought of, even though Te Puao Te Atatu was all about whānau.”
                    …
                    “There was a big push through the 90s of getting people off benefits by cutting benefits and all of that stuff. Within a neoliberal political context, those issues are viewed as very separate from an issue of child abuse.”
                    …
                    “The expert panel review report came out in 2015 which was led by [later Dame] Paula Rebstock. The report led to the creation of Oranga Tamariki. But the language around removing children at the earliest opportunity to safe and loving homes, that was the first time that language had been used. I think that had a direct effect on practice. One or two years later came social investment, which sort of solidified that ‘get in early and get them out to the safe and loving homes’, rather than doing anything for families we’re taking them off.”
                    …
                    “The vast majority of children who are abused and neglected in New Zealand remain in the care of their parents. And so how do we support those parents to parent in a way that that, first of all doesn’t harm their kids, but allows their kids to develop according to their potential? Yes, there’s a question around uplift into care. That’s the severe, severe end. But the reality is that we have a horrific child-abuse situation in New Zealand, and most of those remain in the care of their families.

                    “We have windows of development and early childhood that we never get back in terms of . . . cognitive and language and relational well-being.”

                    Whitcombe-Dobbs says she has noticed how the language used to describe children perceived as vulnerable can suddenly shift at a young age, particularly if they are Māori boys. At a young age they are no longer perceived as vulnerable or victims and are instead portrayed as a risk and a threat.
                    …
                    In her research she talked to parents who were potentially exposing their shortcomings to a relative stranger. Whitcombe-Dobbs says they were like any other parents who love their kids. “The parents who I have involvement with have the same hopes and dreams that I have for my kids. The failure to meet the kids needs consistently is in my view, for the most part, a ‘can’t’, not a ‘won’t’.”
                    …
                    But she [Elison Mae] says Oranga Tamariki’s role cannot be viewed in isolation from other issues.

                    “When you’re working in care and protection you see the overlap with mental health, you see the overlap with poverty, you see the overlap with drug addiction, you see the overlap with domestic violence. All of these things. You see the overlap with having nowhere to live. Housing. All of these things come into impacting on that child or young person.

                    “I don’t think it matters whether it’s the state, whether it’s iwi-based, whether it’s hapū-based, do you deal just with care and protection without dealing with all the other stuff? Actually you can’t because they’re all intertwined.”

                    “If we agree that this isn’t a political issue, that it’s a humanitarian issue, then we might make better progress.”
                    …
                    “Currently around 80 per cent of decision making and power and everything sits with OT and 20 per cent sits with communities,” Davis says. “Over the next five or so years, I want to reverse that balance, so 80 per cent with communities, and OT’s role is as the enablers of community aspirations.” As it stands today, Oranga Tamariki has an operating budget of $1.3 billion.
                    …
                    “It’s easy to blame those people for their behaviour. They’ve got all this trauma that needs to be unravelled, but our solution is to throw them in prison. We really do have to sort this out. We just can’t keep blaming people, we can’t just keep building more prisons.
                    …
                    Iwi themselves are also aware of the limits on what they can do and what they can provide. Treaty settlements have been perceived as a panacea to address deep and ongoing inequities, when the settlement amounts are dwarfed by not only the original loss, but also the social and economic needs that have built up over generations.
                    …
                    Jean Te Huia is one that has seen that intervention both in her own whānau and in the prisoners she now works with in rehabilitation programmes. At times there was too much alcohol, and violence, in the home she grew up in.

                    “I believe that as bad as things were at home, our brothers that were removed from our home and put into state care had it worse. Their torment and the abuse that they went through, they can’t come back from.

                    “My boy cousins were also taken into state care as children. Again, abused. I have never, ever met a child who was removed from their family tell me that they were better off.

                    “All the men in prison that I talk to who have been through the system as children and then been through prison and whose children are now going through it, none of them have told me they’re better off for it.”

                    • pat …
                      15 July 2023 at 1:17 pm

                      Longer term, partnerships between state services and communities could channel more resources into enhancing support and addressing factors known to erode supportive living environments. Such resource use might be a factor-dependent step too far for many, and the roll out of improvements to existing strategies is 'glacial'

                      Is this a quote from somewhere….its not in your linked MSD document .

                      I can hear the cries of "Minority Report" already.

                      Is the issue more one of competence within the sector if the links have be identified (and agreed) decades ago and at least some effort has been made to implement that understanding?….the performance of OT has to be explained somehow.

                  • Drowsy M. Kram …
                    15 July 2023 at 3:08 pm

                    Is this a quote from somewhere….

                    No, but thanks for quoting me. It was a reference to the same page we were on regarding the luxury of time being frittered away.

                    …the performance of OT has to be explained somehow.

                    Maybe a clue to the performance of OT and it's former incarnations is in the second sentence of 'The Misery-Go-Round' article:

                    But is it the institution that is flawed or the society that expects it to fix bigger problems?

                    Family-Based Risk and Protective Factors and their Effects on Juvenile Delinquency: What Do We Know?
                    [Canada, 2008; PDF]

                    Changing the Odds for Vulnerable Children : Building Opportunities and Resilience [OECD]
                    This chapter analyses the environmental factors contributing to child vulnerability. These factors operate at both the family and community level. Family factors include material deprivation, parents’ health and health behaviours, parents’ level of education, intimate partner violence and family stress. Community factors include schools and neighbourhoods. The analysis shows the strong inter-generational aspect of vulnerability and the concentration of vulnerable children within certain families and communities.

                    https://www.childmatters.org.nz/insights/risk-factors/

                    Thinking about longer-term remedies for societal problems often takes me back to "the original position". Although far from perfect, I find (admittedly sometimes with the benefit of hindsight) that it can be a helpful device for identifying policies and practices that have been designed with fair outcomes in mind.

                    The Veil of Ignorance (sometimes referred to as "the original position") is a thought experiment popularized by 20-century philosopher John Rawls with the goal of thinking more clearly and impartially about the fair organizing principles of a society based on solidarity. The actual thought experiment is as brilliant as it is simple. The authors of Net Positive describe it as follows:

                    "Imagine you are setting up a political and economic system, but you don't know your place in society, class position or social status… [or] fortune in the distribution of natural assets and abilities, intelligence and strength.

                    What kind of system would you design if you didn't know whether you would be born a white male in a wealthy country, or a Syrian girl in a refugee camp? What kind of policies would you want in place, and how would you want companies to behave?

                    The answer is obvious. Respect, equity, compassion, humanity, and justice would be at the core. The system would provide a basic foundation of well-being and dignity for all, with people at the center, not money."

                    Hmm – "A basic foundation of well-being and dignity for all, with people at the centre, not money."

                    Study finds link between young ram-raiders and family harm events [29 September 2022]
                    "The evidence, the community, the sector experts at the forefront of family and sexual violence have been very clear for a long time that we need enduring solutions. That's why the simplistic short-term 'tough on crime', 'tough on youth' responses do not work," she said.

                    "When you have people involved with violence – let's say a politician who may have caused violent harm to someone at a boarding school. When they are wrapped with support, understanding, forgiveness, and given opportunities to carry on and lead a good life – that's how we can interrupt cycles of violence. That is how people can be supported to lead healthy lives."

                    Perhaps the issues of child abuse and youth offending should be depoliticised, so my bad for choosing a link containing a sly political jab – although the general election is less than 3 months away, and (in NZ) poverty is a political choice.

                    • pat …
                      15 July 2023 at 6:17 pm

                      Will read the linked articles later but my initial response (knee jerk?) to your closing comment… "although the general election is less than 3 months away, and (in NZ) poverty is a political choice."…is that poverty is not only of finances, and while perhaps connected not all poverties can be remedied by funds.

                  • Drowsy M. Kram …
                    15 July 2023 at 8:21 pm

                    …poverty is not only of finances, and while perhaps connected not all poverties can be remedied by funds.

                    Absolutely agree Pat, not all – but some, and the sooner 'we' start…

                    Why poverty in New Zealand is everyone's concern
                    Liang describes poverty as a "heritable condition" that perpetuates and amplifies through generations: "It is also not hard to see how individual poverty flows into communities and society, with downstream effects on economics, crime and health, as well as many other systems. Loosen one strand and everything else unravels."

                    A Kete Half Empty
                    Poverty is your problem, it is everyone's problem, not just those who are in poverty. – Rebecca, a child from Te Puru

                    • pat …
                      16 July 2023 at 8:59 am

                      Yes , inequality has beset us (increasingly) since the reforms of the 80s but we are appear incapable of a revised paradigm…witness Hipkins' most recent announcement.

                      We have chosen the competitive model and it is performing as expected.

  8. Mike the Lefty 8
    11 July 2023 at 1:03 pm

    ACT's policy has everything about responding to populist clamour and little about really thinking this policy right through. Seymour really has no idea about youth offending, the causes of it and the best way to deal with it. ACT is simply buying votes by responding to a (largely media-fuelled) chorus that kids are getting away with murder. If they get into government (God help us) they will find that it is a whole lot more difficult than putting a small bill under urgency through the house.

    I hope someone is keeping a dossier on all of ACT's promises so we can call them out later as being full of shit.

  9. Patricia Bremner 9
    11 July 2023 at 2:00 pm

    This is so important re Bias.

    Q. Did we ever find who funded the gathering in Parliament grounds? Was that published? (Apart from Red Stag and the anti vax groups)

    Q. Do journalists have to declare memberships as Parliamentarians do? Kudos to those who have.

    Q. Do ministry and public servants have to declare memberships?

    Q. Do writers have to admit using Chatbots and name them? (in their sources/bibliography)

    Ordinary folk are unable to keep up, so we need to choose the gate keepers very carefully. Some will call that censorship…..but the world without reason and rules?

  10. You_Fool 10
    11 July 2023 at 6:32 pm

    Ahh ACT, the party of freedoms, liberty and individualism! Where they just want everyone* to be free to do what they want…

    * where everyone is restricted to those that are white, old, rich, and preferably male

  11. Peter 11
    11 July 2023 at 6:40 pm

    Seymour doesn't care about evidence or expert advice about dealing with 17 year olds. Or dealing with those of any age when it cones to crime.

    Seymour only cares about getting votes, especially getting them from rednecks.

  13. lprent 13
    12 July 2023 at 9:37 am

    Corrected some formatting issues and a few bits of text in the post.

  14. Ad 14
    12 July 2023 at 9:58 am

    I think Labour need to adopt some of this youth offending stuff, or they are going to get continually outflanked.

    Nothing wrong with admitting the system needs a tweak and to do more to stop ramraids at source.

    Really not sure why we have a Policy wonk as Minister if they can't read the country.

  15. Sanctuary 15
    12 July 2023 at 4:13 pm

    The raising of the age at which you are still subject to the youth court is a cause in the uptick in youth crime, no doubt about it. They commit crime in order to post it on social media, and as gang prospects (the gangs are recruiting directly from schools for these young people) because they know they will be subject to lesser penalties. But the problem with ACTs and Nationals policies is well, what happens next? If you stick 17 year olds into the adult justice system you can guarantee they’ll come out of it hardened and habitual criminals. If you stick them in boot camps, you’ll just create fitter young criminals. Neither solution is anything but populist bandaids.

    Pulling these kids back from the brink is expensive, requires a huge amount of resources to be dedicated to the job and comes with no guarantee of success. But in my view, it is better to have some sort of hope around a redemptive approach that has a reasonable success rate than the loss of human potential and eye watering, even more expensive option of lifelong imprisonment for entire cohorts of youth.

    IMHO, if you are going to dedicate these resources then you have to use some punitive measures to punish the recruiters and enablers of youth crime – parents and gangs. This is where Labour ought to be positioning itself. To use the notorious Blairism, “tough on crime and tough on the causes of crime”. We do need to make it an easier and more financially rewarding decision to send your kids to school than not to. Parents need to be held accountable for truancy and to some degree for recidivist crime by their children. And if that means charging parents as well as kids for a ram raid then make it so. Gangs need to be dealt with harshly. That will be expensive. We’d need another 3,000 sworn cops for a start. We’ll need to accept some compromises on freedom of assembly and expression to deal with regalia and organisation. That is the debate we need to have.

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