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8:42 am, July 11th, 2023 - 56 comments
Categories: act, crime, law, law and "order" -
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Act clearly wants to nurture hate and division in its pursuit of political support. And hot on its suggestion that young offenders who commit serious offences should be forced to wear ankle bracelets they now say that their support for increasing the age for youth court appearances to 18 was wrong and they now wish to bring it back to 17.
The change to the Oranga Tamariki Act was passed by the National Government in 2017 and Act supported it. Interestingly Labour voted against the law change but for unrelated reasons.
Act leader David Seymour was interviewed yesterday by Lisa Owen. He conceded that Act supported the law change but said that this was because they were told that the worst offenders would still go before the courts. He then referred to a case where a 17 year old that beat a 78 year old to within an inch of his life with his shins sticking through his skin went through the Youth Justice system despite the protestations of the police prosecutor. His conclusion was that the system was failing.
To his third point Lisa Owen was naughty and quoted actual facts to Seymour. Like the April 2023 Youth Justice Indicators Summary report which concluded:
There have been encouraging long-term trends for most indicators between 2011/12 and 2021/22. These include:
- The overall offending rates for children and young people decreased by 63% and 64%, respectively.
- The number of children and young people whose offending was serious enough to lead to a family group conference (FGC) or court action decreased by 55% and 59%, respectively.
- The rate of Youth Court appearances decreased by 65%.
- The number of children and young people remanded in custody decreased by 36%.
Seymour responded by counter facts and a claim that the victim should be focused on. His facts should be subject to the accuracy of his recollection of when the law was changed, which was wrong.
He said that it had been changed in 2016. Act’s policy paper also mentions this date. The inclusion of 18 year olds occurred by an amendment passed in 2017.
The case he is referring to appears to be this one. Usually if a 17 year old is charged with a serious offence, which includes murder, manslaughter or a schedule 1A offence including aggravated burglary as in this case the charge is automatically transferred to the District Court. Seventeen year olds who commit the most serious types of offences are dealt with by the District Court although there is an intricacy which means this is not inevitable.
The law is complicated. Law is like that. In the case Seymour refers to it appears that because the 17 year old was jointly charged with a 16 year old and the Crown wanted one trial, not two, the case stayed in the Youth Court. But for this the 17 year old would have been dealt with by the District Court given the seriousness of the charge that he faced.
Seymour’s implication that all 17 year olds charged with serious offending such as aggravated burglary are dealt with in the Youth Court is disingenuous to put it mildly.
Seymour does not care about the evidence or the expert advice which suggests that 17 year olds should be dealt with in a more therapeutic way. Or that our obligations under the United Nations Convention of the rights of the Child, which New Zealand signed up to in 1993, which states that the age of 18 should be the upper age for juvenile justice.
So there are lots of holes to pick here. Not that this is of Act’s concern. They just want old people salivating at the suggestion that there are too many young people performing horrendous acts and we should lock them all up and subject them to cruel and unusual punishment. I can confidently state that no one involved in Youth Justice will vote for Act but these people are not their target market.
The world is a complex place and there are all sorts of nuances that make the policy designed for talk back radio almost inevitably the wrong one. Some parties do not care and will promise to wreak havoc as long as there is political advantage to gain. Act is clearly one of those parties.
We are not the target market. Not just old people are. There are dairy owners for example who want the youth punished
The top x% now have the bulk of the wealth, leaving the bottom with less than nothing and all the stresses and strains that go with that.
In short, a growing percentage of youth are set up to fail and this policy will ensure they are soundly punished for, essentially, not being part of the elite
All they need to do is privatise the justice system and those who've been robbed of everything, including hope, will still be able to play a valuable role in funneling more wealth to those who already have the Lions share…
You can bet that is also on their "To Do" list (along with Health etc)
Anyway….Serco.
And…a long uncomfortable read…
And…FYI (and others) I fully get that some….very dangerous and extremely nasty people need to be removed from Society. For all our safety. But not 17 year old children. And Prisons for profit ? An indictment on NAct.. Authoritarian..and punitive….for money.
This Guardian Australia opinion piece asking "Why is it legal for politicians and 'voice to parliament' campaigners to lie to you?”
In some Australian states, but not at Federal level, it is illegal to say untrue things in political campaigns. To date, rebuttal of lies has come from other parties or the media. Now with the churn of the news cycle, lies can go viral, and the rebuttal lags behind, lost in the chaff. Mud sticks. Confirmational bias rules.
I can't think of an equivalent law in NZ. We need one. Not to mention the US and the UK.
BigHairyNews deconstruct van Velden's version of this story, as misrepresented by her on TVNZ Breakfast on Monday. Complete with court sentencing outcomes.
"#BHN ACTs three step process to sowing dis and misinformation"
This is just "Talk Back" fodder, which detracts from real news and winds the angry up.
He is a dangerous man, in that he appears mild and reasonable, but that mask is false, and should be removed to show the actual intent far more, imo.
ACT are not trying to solve the problem of youth crime – it doesn't bother them and mostly they will be pretty insulated from it because of their private wealth, where they live and what they do for a job. It's completely obvious but worth re-stating – they are engaged in a class project to change the government, regain control of the economy and reset it to favour their interests through lower taxes, re-inflating the housing market, lower wages, higher immigration and removing compliance costs (such as doing anything about climate change) from business. They will do whatever works to achieve that goal – don't expect anything from them that resembles a rational or reasonable approach to solving an actual problem. Fighting them will always be shadow boxing until their class interests are laid bare.
To be more precise:
A group of very rich tycoons which included Alan Gibbs (ring-leader), Craig Heatley, Trevor Farmer (mate of Gibbs) and several other well known rich figures got their heads together and created ACT to be a political party to the right of National. Their motivation was prompted by the realisation that this new electoral system called MMP was threatening ultimate extinction for National.
ACT was born and Roger Douglas and Derek Quigley were invited to be the joint foundation leaders. Both brought in their former supporters from Labour and National and initially the party showed promise (if market forces was your thing) but soon the dinosaurs, the red necks and the generally politically unsavoury were attracted into the party and its been all downhill in the form of populist bullshit and dirty politics ever since.
Exactly!
I quote my comment (https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-18-06-2023/#comment-1955049) again, which happened to be a reply to you![wink wink](https://cdn2.thestandard.org.nz/wp-content/plugins/ark-wysiwyg-comment-editor/ckeditor/plugins/smiley/images/wink_smile.png?x42494)
Someone..who's been there.
And…aye : (
NAct….authoritarian and punitive. Well, that about covers them !
https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-09-07-2023/#comment-1958713
Sadly, it's a free hit in the media for ACT (and as the OP says, thoroughly dishonest. Even National won't agree to lower the age).
Reporting of youth crime usually follows the same pattern:
1) A crime is captured on camera (cellphone or CCTV). A ram raid, for example. These are very unpleasant experiences for the victims, and it's entirely understandable that they express their anger in response. I would too (and have done, in a previous experience).
2) Somewhere way down the news report it will say something like "two teenagers were apprehended by police shortly afterwards, and will appear in the youth court".
3) Then the media story ends. There are no cameras in the youth court. No dramatic pictures for telly.
4) Therefore … the public assume there are no consequences for offending, because the consequences are not reported.
Yes, there are a few exceptions, when the crime is so serious that there is a follow-up story in the news. But 95% of "youth offending" in the media does not fall into that category.
So in the end, it's shocking pictures painting a thousand words, but no words at all about what happens next. Ideal fertile ground for politicians using fear to peddle misinformation.
What do you think should be done about youth offending?….not high level, but practical responses?
Takes a village to raise a Kiwi, but who has the time/resources these days? Not the 50% who find themselves one the 'wrong' side of The Table – there but for the grace of God…
Yes , I think we know many of the causes of youth offending, but having created many of them, how do we respond to both the challenge of ceasing to create more BUT also coping with those who currently exist?
Re "coping", locking up offending youths might kick our growing problem down the road (sound familiar?) – the trick would be to ensure that it didn't increase the magnitude of future challenges in an increasingly splintered society.
The option of investing heavily in educative, health and rehabilitative family-focused strategies, sans increased incarceration, would require politically unpalatable changes to tax policy, so the problem of youth offending, like many others, will continue to grow until it's beyond our control, if it isn't already.
So you have provided examples of what you think we shouldnt do but no suggestion as to what should be done.
Therein lies the issue….the problem cannot be ignored.
My preferance would be to invest heavily in educative, health and rehabilitative family-focused strategies, sans increased incarceration.
So increased intervention within the family environment by some outside agency….assuming that is accepted….and if the youth continues to reoffend?
Yes – increased and earlier intervention/assistance, preferably within a family environment if such exists. Interventions with low acceptance and/or efficacy rates can be refined – always room for improvement.
Then he/she may be lost, perhaps irretrievably so – can't save 'em all, but that's no reason not to try, imho. A question of priorities?
You are aware the agency charged with family interventions and wraparound services for troubled youth is Oranga Tamariki…..more of the same?
No idea what Oranga Tamariki’s success rate is, or what might qualify as a successful intervention.
Interventions with low efficacy rates can be refined – always room for improvement, resources/priorities permitting. Where there’s a will…
Since the ‘youth offending’ problem and its solutions are fundamentally people-based, this will take time. All the more reason to go hard, and go early, imho.
Oranga Tamariki's performance has been less than acceptable to all ….to such a degree that its disestablishment has been called for.
And all with a budget of in excess of a billion a year…one would think that such funding would be able to at least make some positive impact
So no positive impact at all then? Sounds almost as dire as the growing problem of youth offending. Back to the drawing board?
The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results
I could live with "a transfer of power [and resources] to Māori", although that might be a little too different for some.
That has been one of the calls…and it may be successful, but where is the detailed proposal of how it would work?
It is difficult to support any proposal when the how is missing.
Perhaps evolving strategies to deal with child and youth offending have not been the utter failure some would have us believe.
Left out a couple of points, but you get the idea. Is there's room for improvement? Of course, which was the intent of Becroft's call, imo.
Yes, that has been the call of Andrew Becroft (among others), someone who appears quite knowledgeable about initiatives to improve the prospects of youth and child offenders. Factors that can lead to offending behaviour are not particularly mysterious, and the effects of COVID strain are still showing for factors 3 – 5:
– Abuse, neglect and contact with care and protection system
– Early offending, victimisation and contact with the justice system
– Mental health
– Household and community financial resources
– Disengagement from education
Transferring more power and resources to local community programmes seems such a sensible strategy – Lab and Nat MPs have been banging on about something similar for decades.
"Left out a couple of points, but you get the idea. Is there's room for improvement? Of course, which was the intent of Becroft's call, imo."
Think to say 'there is room for improvement' is somewhat of an understatement….as you yourself note (and as the dates of your linked documents show) this has been understood for decades and yet we remain where we are.
Back to Einstein's quote
But do we Pat? Rates of youth offending have decreased “substantially” over the last decade. Might (mis)perception be trumping facts – many seem intent on doing a Minnie Bannister.
One youth offender is, of course, one too many, so there's certainly a place for new and early interventions that would result from a greater transfer of power to Māori, as advocated by Becroft and other experts. And there are any number of reasons to have doubts about such a strategy. Still, preferable to boot camp insanity, imho.
Re your Einstein misattribution, "a favorite of politicians (and pretty much everybody else)", the closest I can find is:
Here are a couple more genuine Einstein quotes.
Makes you think?
Oops – scratch the last two – misquoting is easier than I realised![blush blush](https://cdn2.thestandard.org.nz/wp-content/plugins/ark-wysiwyg-comment-editor/ckeditor/plugins/smiley/images/embarrassed_smile.png?x42494)
Add another misattributed quote to the discussion…."lies, damned lies and statistics"
The statistics, the interpretation/application of is widely contested are not what those on the receiving end or those voting consider..
"But the varying ways to count and then interpret police data means it’s worth taking all claims about crime rates rising or falling with a pinch of salt – no matter which politician they’re coming from."
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/the-whole-truth/130965380/the-whole-truth-has-violent-crime-gone-up-under-labour
We've been discussing the decreasing rates of youth offending (a trend documented during the 5th National and 6th Labour governments), plus strategies to further reduce youth offending, for example the transfer of power to Māori advocated by youth offending expert Becroft.
Don't know about "those on the receiving end", but this voter is concerned with statistical trends, as it would seem are you.
I'm happy to consider any evidence-based case that the Youth Justice
Indicators Summary Report (April 2023) gives a misleading impression of trends in youth offending rates, but don't you think it's curious that ACT's highly intelligent deputy leader Brooke van Velden appears to be struggling to comprehend the reported trends?
“Focused on punishment“, eh? Maybe Swarbrick as a point – you know, ‘boot camps’ and all. Still, even National can learn – apparently.
https://www.newsroom.co.nz/national-learns-lesson-from-boot-camps-with-new-policy
We 'may' be discussing a declining trend in youth offending….we however dont know.
What many do know from experience is that youth offending dosnt appear to be declining…and that despite years of supportive practice the degree of offence certainly dosnt appear to be decreasing.
So we are back at the beginning…we know the factors that are prevalent in youth offenders lives (and to date appear unwilling/unable to address them so will create more)…but we also are failing to competently address those that continue to offend despite the current level of support.
I suspect Chloe Swarbrick is no more frustrated than the victim(s) who are constantly told that youth offending is trending down.
We 'may' have different ways of (not) knowing.
If you don't accept the reported statistics showing that rates of youth offending have been decreasing for at least 10 years, and you're unable or unwilling to provide an evidence-based case to the contrary, then we must agree to disagree on the facts of the matter.
Frustrating, isn't it
Cheer up – the trend may be reversing.
Swarbrick is an effective politician – probably connects best with the yoof. And yes, the trend in youth offending rates is no use to victims left and right, just as encouraging trends in cancer survivorship are little consolation to those who lose loved ones to the disease.
Fwiw, imho NZ is headed for societal disruptions that will make the immediate effects of the pandemic seem like small beans, and youth offending will be (a small) part of that. Kiwis will long for those 'Covid days' when we (mostly) pulled together. I'd like to believe that, despite our isolation, we have the collective expertise/resources to think our way through, if not out of, the worst effects of past errors, although in the happy event that's true, do we have the will?
Time may tell, if we're lucky, and we don't know how lucky we were.
As my linked article stated crime statistic are (mis) used by many and as we dont have access to the raw data nor the methodology no one (outside) can know what the statistics represent…. the parameters can be (and frequently are) set to achieve the desired results.
Statistics aside, youth offending has remained an unresolved issue for our society for my entire lifetime and the lack of progress is noted by a wide range of those involved in the field….that should be telling us something.
Yes, putting those troublesome statistics aside, youth offending is one of many evolving issues that has remained "unresolved" our entire lifetimes.
Perhaps youth offending, like adult offending, is part of the human condition, and cannot be 'resolved', only minimised. So a shout out to all those around the world who work at this daunting coalface.
https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/youth-violence
In Aotearoa NZ, Andrew Becroft, a noted expert on youth offending, believes that transferring power and resources to Māori would achieve progress in the field. What should that be telling us?
Are there other countries that we should be looking to for ideas? Belgium's policies on youth crime are well-regarded by some.
A community matter, eh? "It takes a village to raise a child."
Yes it does take a village to raise a child….unfortunately most of us dont live in villages.
I have some sympathy for the concept of devolving the problem to the 'community' level but I suspect that many would find some of the community solutions unacceptable (which community?)…and ultimately the state sets the parameters.
Most lived in villages when and where the phrase originated – I can't get too hung up on the literal meaning of 'village'.
I suspect that objections would flow freely from some 'quarters'. Change can be scary, hence the attraction of the status quo – BAWU even – as the inevitable impacts of self-centred inaction mount up.
"Appalling statistics" – in the eye of the beholder, surely![wink wink](https://cdn2.thestandard.org.nz/wp-content/plugins/ark-wysiwyg-comment-editor/ckeditor/plugins/smiley/images/wink_smile.png?x42494)
Appalling statistics is not a phrase I used…indeed it was one you yourself posted.
You may not wish to get hung up on the phrase 'village' but I would suggest that the phrase loses its meaning once the village fragments into 'communities'…gang culture is a community..one outside the wider social norms…surely you dont suggest that the criminal gang "community" should be determining our youth crime response?
Yes, I was quoting from the NZMJ paper on unmet healthcare need – some may consider it relevant to the contentious matter of youth offending.
I would suggest that the (presumably considered) definition of 'village' developed by the Australian, Norwegian and US authors of the linked article is satisfactory – again we can agree to disagree.
Surely I don’t, although I acknowledge the good work of former gang members in this area.
"This requires an environment where children's voices are taken seriously (2) and where multiple people (the “villagers”) including parents, siblings, extended family members, neighbors, teachers, professionals, community members and policy makers, care for a child. All these ‘villagers' may provide direct care to the children and/or support the parent in looking after their children. However, the village, in many countries today, is dissipated and fragmented and individuals are increasingly isolated and are not eager to ask for, or provide help to, others. Family breakdown, economic pressures, long working hours and increased mobility have all contributed to families feeling less connected to extended family members and others around them (3)."
your link
And if one or more of those listed are not providing that support, what is the remedy?
One argument is to place the child in an environment where that support exists….but that may require removing the child (children) from the non supportive environment…something that many rail against.
Best to ask those with direct experience of remedies, but I'll have a go. If the lack of (family?) support constitutes an immediate unmitigable danger to the child/children, then a minimally disruptive transfer to a more supportive environment seems a no-brainer (from my perspective), in parallel with intensive state and/or community interventions that foster provision of support with a view to reuniting the family asap. Can't succeed in every case, but imho that's a poor reason for not making an effort.
Longer term, partnerships between state services and communities could channel more resources into enhancing support and addressing factors known to erode supportive living environments. Such resource use might be a factor-dependent step too far for many, and the roll out of improvements to existing strategies is 'glacial' – sound familiar?
Many may, as you say, rail against "removing the child (children) from the non-supportive environment" – seems there's always (at least) two sides to every 'story'.
Longer term, partnerships between state services and communities could channel more resources into enhancing support and addressing factors known to erode supportive living environments. Such resource use might be a factor-dependent step too far for many, and the roll out of improvements to existing strategies is 'glacial'
Is this a quote from somewhere….its not in your linked MSD document .
I can hear the cries of "Minority Report" already.
Is the issue more one of competence within the sector if the links have be identified (and agreed) decades ago and at least some effort has been made to implement that understanding?….the performance of OT has to be explained somehow.
No, but thanks for quoting me. It was a reference to the same page we were on regarding the luxury of time being frittered away.
Maybe a clue to the performance of OT and it's former incarnations is in the second sentence of 'The Misery-Go-Round' article:
https://www.childmatters.org.nz/insights/risk-factors/
Thinking about longer-term remedies for societal problems often takes me back to "the original position". Although far from perfect, I find (admittedly sometimes with the benefit of hindsight) that it can be a helpful device for identifying policies and practices that have been designed with fair outcomes in mind.
Hmm – "A basic foundation of well-being and dignity for all, with people at the centre, not money."
Perhaps the issues of child abuse and youth offending should be depoliticised, so my bad for choosing a link containing a sly political jab – although the general election is less than 3 months away, and (in NZ) poverty is a political choice.
Will read the linked articles later but my initial response (knee jerk?) to your closing comment… "although the general election is less than 3 months away, and (in NZ) poverty is a political choice."…is that poverty is not only of finances, and while perhaps connected not all poverties can be remedied by funds.
Absolutely agree Pat, not all – but some, and the sooner 'we' start…
Yes , inequality has beset us (increasingly) since the reforms of the 80s but we are appear incapable of a revised paradigm…witness Hipkins' most recent announcement.
We have chosen the competitive model and it is performing as expected.
ACT's policy has everything about responding to populist clamour and little about really thinking this policy right through. Seymour really has no idea about youth offending, the causes of it and the best way to deal with it. ACT is simply buying votes by responding to a (largely media-fuelled) chorus that kids are getting away with murder. If they get into government (God help us) they will find that it is a whole lot more difficult than putting a small bill under urgency through the house.
I hope someone is keeping a dossier on all of ACT's promises so we can call them out later as being full of shit.
This is so important re Bias.
Q. Did we ever find who funded the gathering in Parliament grounds? Was that published? (Apart from Red Stag and the anti vax groups)
Q. Do journalists have to declare memberships as Parliamentarians do? Kudos to those who have.
Q. Do ministry and public servants have to declare memberships?
Q. Do writers have to admit using Chatbots and name them? (in their sources/bibliography)
Ordinary folk are unable to keep up, so we need to choose the gate keepers very carefully. Some will call that censorship…..but the world without reason and rules?
Ahh ACT, the party of freedoms, liberty and individualism! Where they just want everyone* to be free to do what they want…
* where everyone is restricted to those that are white, old, rich, and preferably male
Seymour doesn't care about evidence or expert advice about dealing with 17 year olds. Or dealing with those of any age when it cones to crime.
Seymour only cares about getting votes, especially getting them from rednecks.
A prominent political figure…a murky business
https://twitter.com/nzstuffpolitics/status/1618848298328289280?s=46&t=YQYWab08lrynsGdyx3LLKg
Corrected some formatting issues and a few bits of text in the post.
I think Labour need to adopt some of this youth offending stuff, or they are going to get continually outflanked.
Nothing wrong with admitting the system needs a tweak and to do more to stop ramraids at source.
Really not sure why we have a Policy wonk as Minister if they can't read the country.
The raising of the age at which you are still subject to the youth court is a cause in the uptick in youth crime, no doubt about it. They commit crime in order to post it on social media, and as gang prospects (the gangs are recruiting directly from schools for these young people) because they know they will be subject to lesser penalties. But the problem with ACTs and Nationals policies is well, what happens next? If you stick 17 year olds into the adult justice system you can guarantee they’ll come out of it hardened and habitual criminals. If you stick them in boot camps, you’ll just create fitter young criminals. Neither solution is anything but populist bandaids.
Pulling these kids back from the brink is expensive, requires a huge amount of resources to be dedicated to the job and comes with no guarantee of success. But in my view, it is better to have some sort of hope around a redemptive approach that has a reasonable success rate than the loss of human potential and eye watering, even more expensive option of lifelong imprisonment for entire cohorts of youth.
IMHO, if you are going to dedicate these resources then you have to use some punitive measures to punish the recruiters and enablers of youth crime – parents and gangs. This is where Labour ought to be positioning itself. To use the notorious Blairism, “tough on crime and tough on the causes of crime”. We do need to make it an easier and more financially rewarding decision to send your kids to school than not to. Parents need to be held accountable for truancy and to some degree for recidivist crime by their children. And if that means charging parents as well as kids for a ram raid then make it so. Gangs need to be dealt with harshly. That will be expensive. We’d need another 3,000 sworn cops for a start. We’ll need to accept some compromises on freedom of assembly and expression to deal with regalia and organisation. That is the debate we need to have.