I don't get how it's "offensive in the extreme". It is what it is.
I entered the topic, noted it was for women only, and left without reading any of it.
If it's not meant for men to comment on, it's not for men to comment on. View it as a sort of a no tax without representation thing and go read and participate somewhere else.
I had a read of the first one, as allowed in the post. Haven't kept an eye on the latest one. First one seemed to have a bit of a pile-on in the comments.
Someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I have a vague recollection of occasional other posts where comments were restricted to particular groups – vague inkling of a leftie-only post? I think that might have been here?
Anyway, it's a reasonable way to make sure others can get a word in edge-wise.
I guess I can understand feminists wanting a man free zone, though I take your point it's not really conducive to general deliberation and debate, but big boy trousers and all that.
It doesn't bother me to be maximus offendinatum.
Lefties on The Standard, dedicated posts during the last election when we still had lots of righties around and debate was a bit aggro. They were fun discussions
Is it offensive in the extreme? I can think of many more offensive things, ranging from the homelessness crisis, to the potential for ‘uncut ‘males to expose themselves in formerly women’s and children’s changing rooms.
So nothing on the actual issue. Are you pleased with the advice from SUFW re changes that Govt may be making to the bill? Will this solve the issues/snags/concerns seen by many women about the bill as it stands? What do you think?
100% Shanreagh. Or as a fellow commenters did to me a couple of days back, ie. suggested I sounded "unhinged" and "obsessive"
I asked him if he thought this was possibly gaslighting i.e trying to discredit someone by suggesting they were "unhinged" (crazy). I don't think he has replied as of yet. Maybe someone will suggest valium for me. Just like the 70's.
Asserting that women have something wrong with them when speaking of or claiming rights has a long long history. Numbers of women were classed as hysterical, in mental health terms, way way back. it was particularly used around the suffragette era but before that for women who wouldn't or coukdn't take their (male) assigned place in society.
yes it was a shocking example and I am surprised it was/has not been picked up as an ad hominem attack on you given it's long and well-known use to denigrate the arguments of women. Perhaps there is still time?
just had a look at the comments. Tbf to Andre, he would say that to men too. It's his go to on things he feels strongly about. Imo it's a rhetorical device use to undermine people when someone thinks the ideas need to be suppressed (eg anti-vaxxers) – make out there is something wrong with the person, and Andre does have a pretty tongue in that respect.
Thing about TS is there is a degree to which we have to be thick skinned. We can't moderate every rudeness or ad hom. If it becomes a pattern, or is done in a major way (eg if someone called a woman unhinged for talking about sex based rights under a post about things that impact on women, I'd probably pull them up on it) then it's more likely to get moderated.
Gaslighting imo would be something more sustained, either lots of comments like that targeting one person, or a detailed comment attacking someone.
But thanks for raising this. I will keep an eye out to see if there is a pattern emerging of responses to GCF and sex based rights comments. You can always draw my attention to comments too (drop a link in front of me somewhere and ask me to take a look).
thanks Weka and Shanreagh. It was a one off from Andre. I dealt with it myself by asking did he think it was possible it was gaslighting (I myself am not sure, but think you are right Weka, it needs to be sustained). I asked him not to refer to my mental health again. I don't know if he has seen it.
I am pretty resicillient really. I only mentioned in this forum, because Shanreagh said the thing from the 70's like "can't you women take a joke".
It's an old argument that we used to hash out here around what sexism is. Vto is saying that having women's space for safety reasons is bigotry against men. In vto's view, sexism is equal sided, just as much against men as women. Saying that women need women's space to be safe from men is offensive to men in the same way that some Pākehā might avoid living in suburbs with lots of Māori or Pasifica people to keep themselves safe. I think that's the gist of it (am mostly guessing, because he didn't actually say).
He doesn't like the framing of the women's posts. Neither of the women's space posts use the word safety, it does get used in comments. Men are free to talk about whatever they want elsewhere on TS, so vto can have at it, but I would guess he's not explaining what he means because it will induce an argument.
que? i certainly read that yesterday eve, though now looking back the reference to 'men' and 'safe' is no longer there. although I do see others who reference the word 'safe' in the comments, implying its previous existence…… .
acknowledged weka, I do try to play nice with my buttons that are easily pressed, and which most around here are tediously familiar with. They are genuine buttons to me tho – I see so very many men subjugated, oppressed, abused, kicked and punched, and left in the dirt by society, it just tears at me …
incognito found the line though, thanks
onwards, and best (sincerely) with what you do in the womens space
thanks vto. I understand about the buttons and appreciate your honesty here.
I see so very many men subjugated, oppressed, abused, kicked and punched, and left in the dirt by society, it just tears at me
This I understand too. Where we differ I think is that I see the shit that men have to deal with in this regard as being primarily caused by a society that puts men in a whole bunch of boxes that cause them harm. The system treats men badly. We may also differ on what the solutions are.
Shanreagh I wasn't commenting on those issues. You would find however that I am very much on your 'side' on these types of issues. It is only the peripheral issues, such as I did comment on, that get my goat.
It might be informative for you to actually look and the link first, before you make the prophesied rebuttal. (Made before the event was held BTW).
Ross Tucker mentions that eight years ago he too was an advocate for the inclusion of transwomen in the women's category in sport. He then went on to be part of a team that investigated the impacts and consequences of a number of conflicts that arise from the three basic principles of sport: well-being, fairness and inclusion.
It's about 15 minutes long. If you are going to continue to engage, at least have the courtesy to inform yourself so you can dismiss the argument, rather than those making it.
Might surprise you to learn that I did look at the link.
"Someone found a twitterer who agrees with them" is not particularly persuasive, because there might be fifty people just as qualified (or even moreso) who disagree with that twitterer.
The video link of someone who has worked on panels looking to improve trans inclusion into sports is not only"some twitterer". He outlines how they approached this and why they drew the conclusions they did.
Every discipline has experts with different opinions. Some are generally around a broad consensus. Some are fringe, pushing opinions which the facts don't support or are outright contrary to reality.
Twitter, like many social media sites, tends towards promoting opinions to which one naturally agrees. My twitter feed, for example, has been almost empty of anything other than positive mentions of Hubbard. Other people's has likely been the opposite.
So I look for some tweets about Hubbard, but even before I apply my own filters to what I on-share, twitter has already tended to provide me with content that already fits my opinion.
Is this guy's opinion typical of the experts who make up the rest of the panels he's been on? Or is he an outlier? I don't know. How do you know? How does Weka?
As research tools go, Twitter simply serves to reinforce pre-existing opinions.
You haven't independently looked him up past that tweet? That's the first thing I do when someone links. Try it. I usually follow up by trying to find original papers or articles. I wouldn't post or repost links that I didn't think to have some relevance or credibility. That's why I don't post links to Auntie Betty's Instagram.
So, not the messenger, now the medium… and still not the message.
My comment was about seeking out links that allegedly support one's position, then seeking out other links when the first ones fall down.
ohmahgerd Laurel crushes all her opponents because "male" is now it doesn't matter whether she wins or not because she lost. Contradictory positions each with their own curated twitter expert in support. Should I go looking for Twitterers who agree with me and post that?
Twitter schmitter. It's just the latest iteration of the gish gallop – an easy link that might or might not be a thorough and fair reflection of reality, but when that one's dealt with there are a dozen others.
The link is not about Hubbard herself. In fact, your comment makes lie to your claim to have looked at it (unless by looking you meant reading the tweet, not actually watching the video). In which case, disingenuous.
We can sit together and moan about the level of fatuous comment on Twitter and social media. But the question here is are you approaching this discussion in good faith?
Respect for open dialogue and basic intellectual curiosity should have motivated you to click the link after searching credentials. Then a discussion on content could take place seeking resolution.
You spend more time posting while uninformed of the actual (not ascribed) concern arguments, than it would take to discuss them.
At this stage, is there any way anyone could raise concerns with you and have them respectfully discussed?
Well, after the one six weeks ago where I had to look at the partial result sheet from a single event, find a repository of weightlifting results (which I never knew existed), identify the specific event from which those results had been lifted, and then find they were contrary to the rest of Hubbard's record (much closer when in her actual weight range, e.g. the Olympics) which strongly indicated that the twittered snapshot had been cherry-picked… this time I didn't feel like putting in that level of work to look at a tweet that was shared because someone happened to agree with it. I read it, watched it, ignored the appeals to authority, and remained unimpressed. You want me to do a lit review? Nope.
I suppose providing a link to something in text that demonstrates the commenter actually did enough to get a feel of the general direction of wider discussion within the specific research community might work. Something other than posting a tweet that was shared with one because the algorithm knew one already agreed with it.
You're still missing the point that a sample bias in an evidence review can lead to as many problems as it does in data. And social media, as a source, builds links around a sample bias.
You are determined to not discuss the actual subject.
How convenient that a Phd in Sports Science can be dismissed because he uses Twitter.
Lit review? No thanks. I have grave concerns about your reading ability and comprehension as it is. Let's leave the possibility I am wrong on the table.
"You are determined to not discuss the actual subject."
Indeed.
There's nothing wrong with twitter as a source so long as one understands how to use twitter as a source. I don't see it too different from TS, echo chamber that it is at times. Someone says something, we still have to assess the usefulness and veracity of it. It's not that hard, so I don't really know what McFlock is on about. And tbh, not going to put much effort in to understanding because while talking about twitter and algorithms and critical thinking would be an interesting convo at another time, here it just feels like a derail.
If the tweeps expert in their field on twitter aren't good enough sources, then there's probably not much to be done 😉
People can talk about what they want (there's no obligation for McFlock to talk about the issues raised), my links were to discuss the fairness or otherwise of males competing in women's sport so when someone responds to that I'll probably be interested again.
Because individual doctors can never be wrong, even in their speciality?
On occasion. people have posted articles (even peer reviewed articles) or hard data (even partial data, e.g. six weeks ago). Findings of courts and various bodies. That sort of thing I can look at with some hope of learning something.
But if you don't get that most social media is designed around handing you stuff and connections that reinforce your beliefs, then you're in the queue for a tinfoil hat. Because sooner or later a preconception that was mildly held and slightly incorrect will be watered, filtered and cultivated into some prize-winning nuts.
I don’t get this. Laurel Hubbard qualified for the Olympics and those standards are understandably high as Eliza McCartney can attest, for example, who won Bronze only 5 years ago, but failed to meet the threshold this time.
You have ascribed meanings to both 'base' and 'advantage', that are not what was described in the link. So I'm guessing you haven't really looked before commenting. Makes your blitheness a dismissal of commenting, rather than content. Becoming a bit of a habit on TS it seems.
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TL;DR: My top 10 news and analysis links this morning include:Today’s must-read:Angus Deaton on rethinking his economics IMFLocal scoop: The people behind Tamarind, the firm that left a $500m cleanup bill for taxpayers at Taranaki’s Tui oil well, are back operating in Taranaki under a different company name. Jonathan ...
Normally when we talk about accessing public transport it’s about improving how easy it is to get to, such as how easy is it to cross roads in a station/stop’s walking catchment, is it possible to cycle to safely, do bus connections work, or even if are there new routes/connections ...
Politicians are not renowned for telling the truth. Some tell us things that are verifiably not true. They offer statements that omit critical pieces of information. Gloss over risks, preferring to offer the best case scenario.Some not truths are quite small, others amusing in their transparency. There are those repeated ...
Kicking the most vulnerable people out of state housing and pushing them towards homelessness will result in a proliferation of poverty and trauma across our most vulnerable communities. ...
Te Pāti Māori co-leader and MP for Waiariki, Rawiri Waititi has penned a letter asking MPs to support his members bill to remove GST from all food. The bill is expected to go through its first reading in parliament this Wednesday. “I’m calling on all political parties to support my ...
This year is about getting real with Kiwis and discussing the tough issues, as the National Government exacerbates inequality and divides New Zealand, Labour Leader Chris Hipkins said ...
The Government adding Significant Natural Areas (SNAs) to its already roaring environmental policy bonfire is an assault on the future of wildlife that makes Aotearoa unique. ...
After 12 years of fighting to protect our moana we are finding ourselves back at square one and back at court. Today, the Environmental Protection Agency is sitting in Hawera to reconsider an application from Trans-Tasman Resources to dig up 50 million tonnes of the seabed in South Taranaki. This ...
Minister Shane Jones’ decision to step away from a seabed mining project is evidence of the murky waters surrounding the Government’s fast-track legislation. ...
The growth of Treaty of Waitangi clauses in legislation caused so much worry that a special oversight group was set up by the last government in a bid to get greater coherence in the publicservice on Treaty matters. When ministers first considered the need for tighter oversight in 2021, there ...
The growth of Treaty of Waitangi clauses in legislation caused so much worry that a special oversight group was set up by the last government in a bid to get greater coherence in the publicservice on Treaty matters. When ministers first considered the need for tighter oversight in 2021, there ...
The Coalition Government’s miscalculation saga continues as it has forgotten an eyewatering $90 million gap in its interest deductibility cost figures, say Labour Finance spokesperson Barbara Edmonds and Revenue Spokesperson Deborah Russell. ...
He Pou a Rangi Climate Change Commission has today released advice that says if the Government doesn’t act now New Zealand is at risk of not meeting its climate goals. ...
The Coalition Government has today confirmed it is abandoning first home buyers who are struggling to get ahead, says Labour Finance spokesperson Barbara Edmonds. ...
The New Zealand public voted for a change in direction at the 2023 general election and that is exactly what this coalition government has been delivering in its first 100 days. There was an immediate focus on the economy, easing the cost of living, cracking down on law and order ...
The Government has left the health system as an afterthought, announcing half-baked targets at the last minute of their 100-day plan, says Labour Health spokesperson Ayesha Verrall. ...
Kiwis are still waiting for their promised cost of living support after 100 days of a National Government that is taking us backwards, Labour Leader Chris Hipkins said today. ...
The National Government has spent its first 100 days stopping, cutting and reversing. They have scrapped stuff for stuff for the sake of it, without putting up any solutions of their own – and it’s hardworking New Zealanders who will pay for it. ...
100 days of National taking NZ backwardsThe National Government has spent its first 100 days stopping, cutting and reversing. They have scrapped stuff for stuff for the sake of it, without putting up any solutions of their own – and it’s hardworking New Zealanders who will pay for it. ...
The Government must commit to funding free and healthy school lunches, as thousands of people sign the petition to keep them, education spokesperson Jan Tinetti says. ...
If the Government was serious about moving families into public housing, they would build more houses so there is actually somewhere for people to go. ...
The free and healthy school lunches programme feeds our kids, helps them to learn, and saves families money – but it is at risk under this Government, education spokesperson Jan Tinetti said. ...
The Government’s proposed changes to Firearms Prohibition Orders (FPO) add almost nothing new and are merely an attempt to distract from its plans to loosen gun laws, police spokesperson Ginny Andersen and justice spokesperson Dr Duncan Webb said. ...
The great Victorian era English politician Lord Macauley stood in the British House of Parliament and said, "The gallery in which the reporters sit has become a fourth estate of the realm".He understood and outlined even way back then, the significant role and influence media have in a democracy. ...
The government’s attack on Māori health this week is committing tangata-whenua to a premature death, says Te Pāti Māori. “The government have begun their onslaught on Māori health with the abolishment of the Māori Health Authority and smokefree laws in the same day” said health spokesperson and co-leader, Debbie Ngarewa-Packer. ...
Today marks a tragic milestone for New Zealanders as the Coalition Government side with big tobacco to repeal the Smokefree Environments and Regulated Products (Smoked Tobacco) Amendment Act 2022, Labour Leader Chris Hipkins and Labour Health spokesperson Ayesha Verrall said. ...
New Zealand’s social workers are qualified, experienced, and more representative of the communities they serve, Social Development and Employment Minister Louise Upston says. “I want to acknowledge and applaud New Zealand’s social workers for the hard work they do, providing invaluable support for our most vulnerable. “To coincide with World ...
Cabinet has agreed to a reduced road user charge (RUC) rate for plug-in hybrid electric vehicles (PHEVs), Transport Minister Simeon Brown says. Owners of PHEVs will be eligible for a reduced rate of $38 per 1,000km once all light electric vehicles (EVs) move into the RUC system from 1 April. ...
Minister of Agriculture and Trade, Todd McClay, says that today’s opening of Riverland Foods manufacturing plant in Christchurch is a great example of how trade access to overseas markets creates jobs in New Zealand. Speaking at the official opening of this state-of-the-art pet food factory the Minister noted that exports ...
Minister of Foreign Affairs Winston Peters met with Chinese Foreign Minister Wang Yi in Wellington today. “It was a pleasure to host Foreign Minister Wang Yi during his first official visit to New Zealand since 2017. Our discussions were wide-ranging and enabled engagement on many facets of New Zealand’s relationship with China, including trade, ...
Kāinga Ora – Homes & Communities has been instructed to end the Sustaining Tenancies Framework and take stronger measures against persistent antisocial behaviour by tenants, says Housing Minister Chris Bishop. “Earlier today Finance Minister Nicola Willis and I sent an interim Letter of Expectations to the Board of Kāinga Ora. ...
Tēna koutou katoa. Greetings everyone. Thank you to the Auckland Chamber of Commerce and the Honourable Simon Bridges for hosting this address today. I acknowledge the business leaders in this room, the leaders and governors, the employers, the entrepreneurs, the investors, and the wealth creators. The coalition Government shares your ...
Minister Winston Peters completed the final leg of his visit to South and South East Asia in Singapore today, where he focused on enhancing one of New Zealand’s indispensable strategic partnerships. “Singapore is our most important defence partner in South East Asia, our fourth-largest trading partner and a ...
Minister of Internal Affairs and Workplace Relations and Safety, Hon. Brooke van Velden, will travel to the Republic of Korea to represent New Zealand at the Third Summit for Democracy on 18 March. The summit, hosted by the Republic of Korea, was first convened by the United States in 2021, ...
ICNZ Speech 7 March 2024, Auckland Acknowledgements and opening Mōrena, ngā mihi nui. Ko Andrew Bayly aho, Nor Whanganui aho. Good morning, it’s a privilege to be here to open the ICNZ annual conference, thank you to Mark for the Mihi Whakatau My thanks to Tim Grafton for inviting me ...
Prime Minister Christopher Luxon and Lead Coordination Minister Judith Collins have expressed their deepest sympathy on the five-year anniversary of the Christchurch terror attacks. “March 15, 2019, was a day when families, communities and the country came together both in sorrow and solidarity,” Mr Luxon says. “Today we pay our respects to the 51 shuhada ...
Speech for Financial Advice NZ Conference 5 March 2024 Acknowledgements and opening Morena, Nga Mihi Nui. Ko Andrew Bayly aho, Nor Whanganui aho. Thanks Nate for your Mihi Whakatau Good morning. It’s a pleasure to formally open your conference this morning. What a lovely day in Wellington, What a great ...
Foreign Minister Winston Peters held discussions in Jakarta today about the future of relations between New Zealand and South East Asia’s most populous country. “We are in Jakarta so early in our new government’s term to reflect the huge importance we place on our relationship with Indonesia and South ...
Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Foreign Affairs Winston Peters has announced that the Foreign Minister of China, Wang Yi, will visit New Zealand next week. “We look forward to re-engaging with Foreign Minister Wang Yi and discussing the full breadth of the bilateral relationship, which is one of New Zealand’s ...
Transport Minister Simeon Brown has today opened the new Auckland Rail Operations Centre, which will bring together KiwiRail, Auckland Transport, and Auckland One Rail to improve service reliability for Aucklanders. “The recent train disruptions in Auckland have highlighted how important it is KiwiRail and Auckland’s rail agencies work together to ...
The Government is proud to support the 10th edition of Crankworx Rotorua as the Crankworx World Tour returns to Rotorua from 16-24 March 2024, says Minister for Economic Development Melissa Lee. “Over the past 10 years as Crankworx Rotorua has grown, so too have the economic and social benefits that ...
Legislation implementing coalition Government tax commitments and addressing long-standing tax anomalies will be progressed in Parliament next week, Finance Minister Nicola Willis says. The legislation is contained in an Amendment Paper to the Taxation (Annual Rates for 2023–24, Multinational Tax, and Remedial Matters) Bill issued today. “The Amendment Paper represents ...
Associate Environment Minister Andrew Hoggard has today announced that the Government has agreed to suspend the requirement for councils to comply with the Significant Natural Areas (SNA) provisions of the National Policy Statement for Indigenous Biodiversity for three years, while it replaces the Resource Management Act (RMA).“As it stands, SNAs ...
Agriculture Minister Todd McClay has classified the drought conditions in the Marlborough, Tasman, and Nelson districts as a medium-scale adverse event, acknowledging the challenging conditions facing farmers and growers in the district. “Parts of Marlborough, Tasman, and Nelson districts are in the grip of an intense dry spell. I know ...
The Government is helping farmers eradicate the significant impact of facial eczema (FE) in pastoral animals, Agriculture Minister Todd McClay announced. “A $20 million partnership jointly funded by Beef + Lamb NZ, the Government, and the primary sector will save farmers an estimated NZD$332 million per year, and aims to ...
Foreign Minister Winston Peters has completed a successful visit to India, saying it was an important step in taking the relationship between the two countries to the next level. “We have laid a strong foundation for the Coalition Government’s priority of enhancing New Zealand-India relations to generate significant future benefit for both countries,” says Mr Peters, ...
Cabinet has agreed to provide $7 million to ensure the 2024 ski season can go ahead on the Whakapapa ski field in the central North Island but has told the operator Ruapehu Alpine Lifts it is the last financial support it will receive from taxpayers. Cabinet also agreed to provide ...
Health Minister Dr Shane Reti says the launch of a new mobile breast screening unit in Counties Manukau reinforces the coalition Government’s commitment to drive better cancer services for all New Zealanders. Speaking at the launch of the new mobile clinic, Dr Reti says it’s a great example of taking ...
Health Minister Dr Shane Reti says the launch of a new mobile breast screening unit in Counties Manukau reinforces the coalition Government’s commitment to drive better cancer services for all New Zealanders. Speaking at the launch of the new mobile clinic, Dr Reti says it’s a great example of taking ...
Unlocking economic growth and land for housing are critical elements of the Government’s plan for our transport network, and planned upgrades to State Highway 29 (SH29) near Tauriko will deliver strongly on those priorities, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says. “The SH29 upgrades near Tauriko will improve safety at the intersections ...
Unlocking economic growth and land for housing are critical elements of the Government’s plan for our transport network, and planned upgrades to State Highway 29 (SH29) near Tauriko will deliver strongly on those priorities, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says. “The SH29 upgrades near Tauriko will improve safety at the intersections ...
Lower fruit and vegetable prices are welcome news for New Zealanders who have been doing it tough at the supermarket, Finance Minister Nicola Willis says. Stats NZ reported today the price of fruit and vegetables has dropped 9.3 percent in the 12 months to February 2024. “Lower fruit and vege ...
Tēnā koutou katoa and greetings to you all. Chair, I am honoured to address the sixty-eighth session of the Commission on the Status of Women. I acknowledge the many crises impacting the rights of women and girls. Heightened global tensions, war, climate related and humanitarian disasters, and price inflation all ...
Tēnā koutou katoa and greetings to you all. Chair, I am honoured to address the 68th session of the Commission on the Status of Women. I acknowledge the many crises impacting the rights of women and girls. Heightened global tensions, war, climate related and humanitarian disasters, and price inflation all ...
The coalition Government is supporting farmers to enhance land management practices by investing $3.3 million in locally led catchment groups, Agriculture Minister Todd McClay announced. “Farmers and growers deliver significant prosperity for New Zealand and it’s vital their ongoing efforts to improve land management practices and water quality are supported,” ...
Good evening everyone and thank you for that lovely introduction. Thank you also to the Honourable Simon Bridges for the invitation to address your members. Since being sworn in, this coalition Government has hit the ground running with our 100-day plan, delivering the changes that New Zealanders expect of us. ...
Recommendations from the Climate Change Commission for New Zealand on the Emissions Trading Scheme (ETS) auction and unit limit settings for the next five years have been tabled in Parliament, Climate Change Minister Simon Watts says. “The Commission provides advice on the ETS annually. This is the third time the ...
The coalition Government is beginning its fight to lower building costs and reduce red tape by exempting minor building work from paying the building levy, says Building and Construction Minister Chris Penk. “Currently, any building project worth $20,444 including GST or more is subject to the building levy which is ...
Proposed changes to tax legislation to prevent the over-taxation of low-earning trusts are welcome, Finance Minister Nicola Willis says. The changes have been recommended by Parliament’s Finance and Expenditure Committee following consideration of submissions on the Taxation (Annual Rates for 2023–24, Multinational Tax, and Remedial Matters) Bill. “One of the ...
Assalaamu alaikum. السَّلَام عليكم In light of the holy month of Ramadan, I want to extend my warmest wishes to our Muslim community in New Zealand. Ramadan is a time for spiritual reflection, renewed devotion, perseverance, generosity, and forgiveness. It’s a time to strengthen our bonds and appreciate the diversity ...
Former Transport Minister and CEO of the Auckland Business Chamber Hon Simon Bridges has been appointed as the new Board Chair of the New Zealand Transport Agency (NZTA) for a three-year term, Transport Minister Simeon Brown announced today. “Simon brings extensive experience and knowledge in transport policy and governance to the role. He will ...
Good morning all, it is a pleasure to be here as Minister of Science, Innovation and Technology. It is fantastic to see how connected and collaborative the life science and biotechnology industry is here in New Zealand. I would like to thank BioTechNZ and NZTech for the invitation to address ...
Regional Development Minister Shane Jones says he is looking forward to the day when three key water projects in Northland are up and running, unlocking the full potential of land in the region. Mr Jones attended a community event at the site of the Otawere reservoir near Kerikeri on Friday. ...
Associate Finance Minister David Seymour has today announced that the Government has agreed to restore deductibility for mortgage interest on residential investment properties. “Help is on the way for landlords and renters alike. The Government’s restoration of interest deductibility will ease pressure on rents and simplify the tax code,” says ...
Sport and Recreation Minister Chris Bishop will travel to Switzerland today to attend an Executive Committee meeting and Symposium of the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA). Mr Bishop will then travel on to London where he will attend a series of meetings in his capacity as Infrastructure Minister. “New Zealanders believe ...
This year’s Pacific Language Weeks celebrate regional unity and the contribution of Pacific communities to New Zealand culture, says Minister for Pacific Peoples Dr Shane Reti. Dr Reti announced dates for the 2024 Pacific Language Weeks during a visit to the Pasifika festival in Auckland today and says there’s so ...
Greater Wellington is inviting feedback on proposed changes to its Revenue and Financing Policy. The Revenue and Financing Policy covers the Council’s various sources of funding, and how the cost of services is shared across the region. This includes ...
Labour has conceded it could have done more to deal with disruptive state housing tenants while in government but says the current coalition is going too far. ...
The band has asked their record label to issue a cease and desist to stop the NZ First leader using their 1997 hit to support his ‘misguided political views’. “I get knocked down, but I get up again,” blared through the speakers on Sunday as Winston Peters took the stage ...
By Lydia Lewis, RNZ Pacific journalist Food rationing is underway in remote areas in Papua New Guinea’s Highlands following torrential rain and flash flooding. More than 20 people have been reported dead in Chimbu Province. In nearby Enga Province, the centre of last month’s massacre, a 15-year-old boy has been ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Andrew Hughes, Lecturer, Research School of Management, Australian National University After months of debate and intrigue, the AFL’s 19th and newest team, the Tasmania Devils, finally launched its jumper, logo and colours in Devonport this week. The Devils will wear green, ...
Brannavan Gnanalingam reviews the debut novel by Saraid de Silva.One of the most baffling things for children who move to a new country is what their parents’ (or grandparents’) lives were like prior to moving – for kids in particular, they’re too busy trying to fit in in their ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Stephen Gaunson, Associate Professor in Cinema Studies, RMIT University Narelle Portanier/Binge “If you don’t know who your mob are, you don’t know who you are,” Detective Andrea “Andie” Whitford (played by Leah Purcell) is told early into the new crime ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Elise Klein, Associate professor, Australian National University It’s commonly accepted that women do the vast majority of caregiving in Australian society. But less appreciated is that Indigenous women do larger amounts of unpaid care than any other group. Working with the Aboriginal ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Adrian Beaumont, Election Analyst (Psephologist) at The Conversation; and Honorary Associate, School of Mathematics and Statistics, The University of Melbourne Joe Biden and Donald Trump have both secured their parties’ nominations for the November 5 United States general election by winning a ...
Comment: There has been a striking contrast in trans-Tasman interest about Chinese foreign minister Wang Yi’s visit to New Zealand and Australia. While the Australian press has been full of articles about the visit – including his curious decision to meet with former prime minister and China booster Paul Keating ...
After years of pressuring banks and other institutions to stop investing in fossil fuels, climate campaigners are making some progress. So how does divestment work?For years, climate activists have been pushing banks and other big institutions to divest from fossil fuels. New research from climate advocacy group 350 Aotearoa ...
For Boba, Ethan and Ashley, K-pop is a place to belong, a way to express themselves, and a bridge to connect with others. The three young Polynesians are part of a K-pop fan community in Tāmaki Makaurau. It’s one of many that have sprung up worldwide as K-pop has gone ...
For Boba, Ethan and Ashley, K-pop is a place to belong, a way to express themselves, and a bridge to connect with others. This one-off documentary presents three intimate portraits of young Polynesians who are pulled into a Korean cultural phenomenon. K-POLYS is directed by Litia Tuiburelevu, Produced by Hex ...
There’s ample evidence demonstrating free school lunch programmes provide wide benefits across schools, households and communities according to public health researchers. ACT Minister David Seymour wants to reduce the spending on Aotearoa New Zealand’s ...
By Wata Shaw in Suva Fiji is facing an exodus of Fijians as many are leaving for overseas seeking employment and education and others are migrating, says Opposition MP Viliame Naupoto. Speaking in Parliament, he said: “His Excellency’s speech (Ratu Wiliame Katonivere) comes after a little over one year of ...
The Taxpayers’ Union is welcoming comments from Christopher Luxon this morning recommitting to ‘no new taxes’ as part of Budget 2024. “Mr Luxon’s refusal at the Post-Cabinet press conference yesterday to repeat the ‘no new taxes’ promise ...
SAFE is urgently calling on the Environment Committee to reject the Government’s Fast-Track Approvals Bill, and is urging New Zealanders to rally behind the call. The proposed Bill, currently under consideration with the Environment select committee, ...
Teammates who spend all their time picking fights with spectators are only helpful for the other team, writes Madeleine Chapman. Anyone who has ever played a team sport competitively, particularly as a child and particularly, for some reason, basketball, will know that there’s a lot of politics involved. While there ...
The long-running Wellington music festival is too focused on the Jim Beam-ness and not enough on the Homegrown-ness.There is something about Homegrown that’s difficult to place. A barely perceptible-ness. Like feeling a ghost is watching you from the corner of the room but when you look, there’s nothing there. ...
The latest Ipsos New Zealand Issues Monitor reveals that fewer New Zealanders believe crime / law and order is one of the top issues facing our country. In 2018, Ipsos New Zealand started tracking the key issues facing New Zealand. In this wave ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Kate Griffiths, Deputy Program Director, Budgets and Government, Grattan Institute Australia’s political donations rules are woefully inadequate, but donations reform is finally on the agenda. The federal government has signalled its interest in reform and will soon begin briefing MPs on its ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Mark Patrick Taylor, Chief Environmental Scientist, EPA Victoria; Honorary Professor, School of Natural Sciences, Macquarie University Naiyana Somchitkaeo/Shutterstock A recent study published in the prestigious New England Journal of Medicine has linked microplastics with risk to human health. The study ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Albert Van Dijk, Professor, Water and Landscape Dynamics, Fenner School of Environment & Society, Australian National University Global climate records were shattered in 2023, from air and sea temperatures to sea-level rise and sea-ice extent. Scores of countries recorded their hottest year ...
As part of our series exploring how New Zealanders live and our relationship with money, a teacher explains why he and his partner are in frugal mode – and how they’re making it work. Gender: Male Age: 35Ethnicity: Pākehā Role: I am an intermediate school teacher and my partner is ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Sarah Bendall, Senior Lecturer, Institute for Humanities and Social Sciences, Australian Catholic University Binge Mary & George, the new British television drama series, depicts the real-life story of Mary Villiers and her son George, and their social climbing at the ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Jason Nassios, Associate Professor, Centre of Policy Studies, Victoria University This article is part of The Conversation’s series examining the housing crisis. Read the other articles in the series here. Australian state and federal governments spend money in many ways to ...
The finance minister is denying that there’s a $5.6b shortfall in paying for the government’s campaign promises, including tax cuts. At his post-cabinet press conference yesterday, the PM refused to rule out new taxes to pay for the cuts, writes Anna Rawhiti-Connell in this excerpt from The Bulletin, The Spinoff’s ...
Kāinga Ora tenants abused by their neighbours are doubting the government's crackdown on disruptive tenants will make a difference on their behaviour. ...
Kāinga Ora is New Zealand’s biggest residential landlord, housing more than 180,000 vulnerable people in more than 67,000 properties. Yesterday the government announced a crackdown on its tenants who fall behind on rent. One longtime Kāinga Ora tenant shares her experience.For 18 years I lived in a 1960s standalone ...
Why does this myth persist, and what’s the real reason our skin is suffering?It’s one of the biggest international grievances New Zealanders hold, up there with the sinking of the Rainbow Warrior and 1981’s underarm incident. We’re quick to tell international travellers that the world’s pollution led to the ...
Auckland Council is opposing a fast-track development backed by Sir John Kirwan and Spark NZ, because it doesn’t meet stringent new climate adaptation requirements The post Surf-data centre faces new 3.8C climate warming rules appeared first on Newsroom. ...
When the Criminal Proceeds (Recovery) Act was introduced in 2009 it was firmly targeted at gangs and drugs. The legislation means police no longer need a conviction to seize assets that criminals can’t prove were paid for legitimately, as long as their alleged offences are punishable by more than a ...
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Bob’s relationship with certain members of Lincoln’s academic staff continued to deteriorate in the 1990s. Others supported him publicly, though articles such as Roland Clark’s 1993 piece in Growing Today cannot have pleased the university management. Clark wrote that Bob was selling onions from the Biological Husbandry Unit to a ...
SailGP’s races feature in-your-face action, with agile, hydro-foiling catamarans tacking and jibing for the title over several days. However, public comments ahead of the global series’ return to New Zealand have left this past year’s controversy in the shadows, as a key appointment attracts criticism from dolphin advocates. A year ...
Opinion: We are fast approaching a fundamental change in prisons. As the number of people on custodial remand looks set to overtake the number of sentenced prisoners, the main function of prisons in New Zealand may become incarcerating un-sentenced people who may not be guilty of offending. We have already ...
A huge seven months lies in store for the White Ferns, beginning this week with the visit of England and culminating with the T20 World Cup in Bangladesh in September and October. Starting on Tuesday in Dunedin, the world ranked No. 2 visitors will play five T20s and three ODIs, ...
Opinion: In a move that has shocked road safety advocates across the country, the new Minister of Transport, Simeon Brown, is poised to abandon the previous government’s speed limit reduction policy, particularly around schools. Even more alarmingly, he wants school speed limits to be variable rather than full-time, arguing ...
The letters, which were published last week, were addressed to Indonesian Democratic Party of Struggle (PDI-P) Chairperson Megawati Sukarnoputri, National Democrat Party (NasDem) Chairperson Surya Paloh, National Awakening Party (PKB) Chairperson Muhaimin Iskandar, Justice and Prosperity Party (PKS) President Ahmad Syaikhu and United Development Party (PPP) Chairperson Muhammad Mardiono. In ...
Evicting more people from state housing is ignorant to the consequences of poverty, the Greens say, but the Housing Minister says it's a privilege that can be taken away if abused. ...
Evicting more people from state housing is ignorant to the consequences of poverty, the Greens say, but the Housing Minister says it's a privilege that can be taken away if abused. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Emerald L King, Lecturer in Humanities, University of Tasmania IMDB Between Netflix’s 2023 live-action version of One Piece, and its latest take on Avatar: The Last Airbender, fans are once again asking: why are live-action anime adaptations so tricky to ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Emerald L King, Lecturer in Humanities, University of Tasmania IMDB Between Netflix’s 2023 live-action version of One Piece, and its latest take on Avatar: The Last Airbender, fans are once again asking: why are live-action anime adaptations so tricky to ...
The government says it still intends to deliver tax cuts by July, but will not lock them in until they have got them past their coalition partners. ...
Kiingi Tuheitia Pootatau Te Wherowhero VII has hosted members of the Green Party Caucus at Tuurangawaewae Marae in Ngaaruawahia. The audience follows the King’s Hui-aa-Motu on 20 January, where more than 10,000 people gathered to discuss national ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Dr Rachael Potter, Research Associate and Lecturer in Work and Organisational Psychology, University of South Australia Ground Picture/Shutterstock Pregnant women and workers with children are often unfairly treated by their bosses and colleagues, despite laws to protect against workplace discrimination ...
Reacting to Prime Minister Christopher Luxon’s refusal to rule out introducing new taxes at the budget, Taxpayers’ Union Campaigns Manager, Connor Molloy, said: “Today’s refusal to rule out new taxes suggests the Government is nothing more ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Stephen Duckett, Honorary Enterprise Professor, School of Population and Global Health, and Department of General Practice and Primary Care, The University of Melbourne Aila Images/Shutterstock Aged-care workers will receive a significant pay increase after the Fair Work Commission ruled they ...
He’s bringing ‘Sophie’ back, yeah. Goodshirt’s ‘Sophie’ music video is one of the most instantly recognisable New Zealand music videos of all time. Featuring a woman listening to the song on headphones while her entire house is burgled behind her, the video won the New Zealand music award for Best ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By John Blaxland, Professor, Strategic and Defence Studies Centre, Australian National University A year ago, the AUKUS agreement was formally announced between Australian and UK Prime Ministers Anthony Albanese and Rishi Sunak and US President Joe Biden. The agreement mapped out the “optimal ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Andreas Helwig, Associate Professor, Electro-Mechanical Engineering, University of Southern Queensland SmartS/Shutterstock Steam locomotives clattering along railway tracks. Paddle steamers churning down the Murray. Dreadnought battleships powered by steam engines. Many of us think the age of steam has ended. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Carrie Leonetti, Associate Professor of Law, University of Auckland, Waipapa Taumata Rau Victims who experience family violence in Aotearoa New Zealand are treated differently, depending on which part of the justice system they turn to for help. But a new member’s bill ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Peter Tesch, Visiting Fellow at the ANU Centre for European Studies, Australian National University In perhaps the least surprising news of the year, Vladimir Putin has triumphed at the Russian ballot box and been enthroned for the fifth time as president. He ...
The Papua New Guinea Supreme Court has stopped a byelection for the Madang Open seat being held until an appeal filed by former MP Bryan Kramer is concluded. Kramer had appealed to the Supreme Court over a National Court decision not to review his application of the Leadership Tribunal decision ...
By Miriam Zarriga in Port Moresby Despite a “historic” ceasefire agreement in Papua New Guinea between Enga authorities and tribal leaders after months of bitter warfare, a young woman has been found brutally killed near Kaekin village, Wapenamanda. Despite the peace agreement and signing concluded in Port Moresby last Thursday ...
The second season of Ryan Murphy’s Feud is a sadder and slower entry into his canon of true story-telling, leaning heavily on a verdict about the cost of a single work of art. Hollywood heavyweight Ryan Murphy has had a bit of “ick” about him in the last few years. ...
Are you deeply passionate about sharing Māori stories? We’re on the hunt for an experienced writer/editor to lead coverage in our Ātea section.Ātea is a deeply valued section of The Spinoff site, offering Māori perspectives and insights across politics, current affairs and culture. We are thrilled to be looking ...
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Why Jacinda Ardern sat under a woven mat.
Breath-taking courage.
"Last night’s actions are unheard of by a world leader. Her compassion and humility was beautiful to watch…"
https://thespinoff.co.nz/atea/02-08-2021/dawn-raids-ceremony-explained-why-jacinda-ardern-sat-under-a-woven-mat/
Agreed. Well said, Robert. Very moving and explanatory article.
Thanks Robert.
What Mac said.
Reading that has mellowed the rant that was forming while I had a shower.
There is no doubt the PM does symbolism extremely well….there is value in that.
a safe place for women
excludes men
pfft
..
zero
offensive in the extreme
I don't get how it's "offensive in the extreme". It is what it is.
I entered the topic, noted it was for women only, and left without reading any of it.
If it's not meant for men to comment on, it's not for men to comment on. View it as a sort of a no tax without representation thing and go read and participate somewhere else.
I had a read of the first one, as allowed in the post. Haven't kept an eye on the latest one. First one seemed to have a bit of a pile-on in the comments.
Someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I have a vague recollection of occasional other posts where comments were restricted to particular groups – vague inkling of a leftie-only post? I think that might have been here?
Anyway, it's a reasonable way to make sure others can get a word in edge-wise.
I guess I can understand feminists wanting a man free zone, though I take your point it's not really conducive to general deliberation and debate, but big boy trousers and all that.
It doesn't bother me to be maximus offendinatum.
Lefties on The Standard, dedicated posts during the last election when we still had lots of righties around and debate was a bit aggro. They were fun discussions
no problem with their own sandpit but the way it has been constructed is offensive .. see other post .. crude and rude
Sweet pie or dog’s dinner – You either swallow it down or let it chew you up. Your call, obviously.
neither is applicable
Then best order in a bucket of Gaviscon 'cause if shits going down it's probably gonna burn.
Why?
Is it offensive in the extreme? I can think of many more offensive things, ranging from the homelessness crisis, to the potential for ‘uncut ‘males to expose themselves in formerly women’s and children’s changing rooms.
think white breads who drive past their local brown breads school because 'safe'
??????
So nothing on the actual issue. Are you pleased with the advice from SUFW re changes that Govt may be making to the bill? Will this solve the issues/snags/concerns seen by many women about the bill as it stands? What do you think?
https://thestandard.org.nz/womens-space/
Weka’s post 11.1
Or are we going to hark back to the 70s where the next step is for someone to say that women who are concerned have 'no sense of humour'?
100% Shanreagh. Or as a fellow commenters did to me a couple of days back, ie. suggested I sounded "unhinged" and "obsessive"
I asked him if he thought this was possibly gaslighting i.e trying to discredit someone by suggesting they were "unhinged" (crazy). I don't think he has replied as of yet. Maybe someone will suggest valium for me. Just like the 70's.
Asserting that women have something wrong with them when speaking of or claiming rights has a long long history. Numbers of women were classed as hysterical, in mental health terms, way way back. it was particularly used around the suffragette era but before that for women who wouldn't or coukdn't take their (male) assigned place in society.
yes it was a shocking example and I am surprised it was/has not been picked up as an ad hominem attack on you given it's long and well-known use to denigrate the arguments of women. Perhaps there is still time?
just had a look at the comments. Tbf to Andre, he would say that to men too. It's his go to on things he feels strongly about. Imo it's a rhetorical device use to undermine people when someone thinks the ideas need to be suppressed (eg anti-vaxxers) – make out there is something wrong with the person, and Andre does have a pretty tongue in that respect.
Thing about TS is there is a degree to which we have to be thick skinned. We can't moderate every rudeness or ad hom. If it becomes a pattern, or is done in a major way (eg if someone called a woman unhinged for talking about sex based rights under a post about things that impact on women, I'd probably pull them up on it) then it's more likely to get moderated.
Gaslighting imo would be something more sustained, either lots of comments like that targeting one person, or a detailed comment attacking someone.
But thanks for raising this. I will keep an eye out to see if there is a pattern emerging of responses to GCF and sex based rights comments. You can always draw my attention to comments too (drop a link in front of me somewhere and ask me to take a look).
thanks Weka and Shanreagh. It was a one off from Andre. I dealt with it myself by asking did he think it was possible it was gaslighting (I myself am not sure, but think you are right Weka, it needs to be sustained). I asked him not to refer to my mental health again. I don't know if he has seen it.
I am pretty resicillient really. I only mentioned in this forum, because Shanreagh said the thing from the 70's like "can't you women take a joke".
But thanks…….
It's an old argument that we used to hash out here around what sexism is. Vto is saying that having women's space for safety reasons is bigotry against men. In vto's view, sexism is equal sided, just as much against men as women. Saying that women need women's space to be safe from men is offensive to men in the same way that some Pākehā might avoid living in suburbs with lots of Māori or Pasifica people to keep themselves safe. I think that's the gist of it (am mostly guessing, because he didn't actually say).
He doesn't like the framing of the women's posts. Neither of the women's space posts use the word safety, it does get used in comments. Men are free to talk about whatever they want elsewhere on TS, so vto can have at it, but I would guess he's not explaining what he means because it will induce an argument.
you are welcome to your own sandpit – its got nothing to do with that
but suggesting people are unsafe solely because they are male is offensive
no-one said that vto.
que? i certainly read that yesterday eve, though now looking back the reference to 'men' and 'safe' is no longer there. although I do see others who reference the word 'safe' in the comments, implying its previous existence…… .
you haven't deleted it have you weka?
nope. Link or it didn't happen.
well I can't link now as it has disappeared. i dont make things up weka
Looks like you misremembered then.
I've looked in Trash and the only mention of safe in a comment there is a duplicate of a comment still in the front end.
The Women's Space post last edit was on Sunday, a minute within publishing and nothing about safety and men.
My suggestion is next time you do two things: link as you go, and explain what you mean as you go. Otherwise it looks like you are making things up.
I hazard a guess that vto is thinking of this:
Our memories can play havoc with us.
. https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-02-08-2021/#comment-1806434
Yes, but vto said "but suggesting people are unsafe solely because they are male is offensive"
Which isn't what Molly (or anyone) said.
acknowledged weka, I do try to play nice with my buttons that are easily pressed, and which most around here are tediously familiar with. They are genuine buttons to me tho – I see so very many men subjugated, oppressed, abused, kicked and punched, and left in the dirt by society, it just tears at me …
incognito found the line though, thanks
onwards, and best (sincerely) with what you do in the womens space
thanks vto. I understand about the buttons and appreciate your honesty here.
This I understand too. Where we differ I think is that I see the shit that men have to deal with in this regard as being primarily caused by a society that puts men in a whole bunch of boxes that cause them harm. The system treats men badly. We may also differ on what the solutions are.
So you are not going to reply VTO? Substantively? On the issues raised in the proposed amendments to the legislation?
It would be great if you could frame the concerns of women as you see them (following the good advice in the How to debate thread)
In the meantime what do you think of the possible amendments foreshadowed by SUFW that I linked to. How do you think that will meet any concerns?
Shanreagh I wasn't commenting on those issues. You would find however that I am very much on your 'side' on these types of issues. It is only the peripheral issues, such as I did comment on, that get my goat.
Happy to exchange views another time
https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/checkpoint/audio/2018806504/disabled-people-in-relationships-paying-for-the-price-of-love
Oh good. Welfare was meant to support disabled, not leave them guilt ridden or alone for life.
A fair amount of nonsense on both sides after Laurel Hubbard’s loss at the Olympics. This was a good explanation of the advantage issue,
https://twitter.com/scienceofsport/status/1422167625640054784?s=21
https://twitter.com/scienceofsport/status/1422169346357481473?s=21
So when she wins in a competition,there's a tweet about how transwomen have an amazing advantage over other women. When she doesn't win, now there is a tweet and vid about how she has an outrageous advantage but her "baseline" is weak.
Seems like whether she wins or loses, she can't win.
obviously for the people that think males shouldn't be in women's sports, it's wrong no matter who wins.
You linked to a comment where the debate following was an ad hom.
I'm here for exploring the issues. If people don't want to talk about them, that's fine.
On that, we agree.
It might be informative for you to actually look and the link first, before you make the prophesied rebuttal. (Made before the event was held BTW).
Ross Tucker mentions that eight years ago he too was an advocate for the inclusion of transwomen in the women's category in sport. He then went on to be part of a team that investigated the impacts and consequences of a number of conflicts that arise from the three basic principles of sport: well-being, fairness and inclusion.
It's about 15 minutes long. If you are going to continue to engage, at least have the courtesy to inform yourself so you can dismiss the argument, rather than those making it.
https://t.co/UXUjeXbAh5?amp=1
Might surprise you to learn that I did look at the link.
"Someone found a twitterer who agrees with them" is not particularly persuasive, because there might be fifty people just as qualified (or even moreso) who disagree with that twitterer.
It just reinforces the poster's conviction.
The video link of someone who has worked on panels looking to improve trans inclusion into sports is not only"some twitterer". He outlines how they approached this and why they drew the conclusions they did.
So, once again, the messenger…
Nope, the medium.
Every discipline has experts with different opinions. Some are generally around a broad consensus. Some are fringe, pushing opinions which the facts don't support or are outright contrary to reality.
Twitter, like many social media sites, tends towards promoting opinions to which one naturally agrees. My twitter feed, for example, has been almost empty of anything other than positive mentions of Hubbard. Other people's has likely been the opposite.
So I look for some tweets about Hubbard, but even before I apply my own filters to what I on-share, twitter has already tended to provide me with content that already fits my opinion.
Is this guy's opinion typical of the experts who make up the rest of the panels he's been on? Or is he an outlier? I don't know. How do you know? How does Weka?
As research tools go, Twitter simply serves to reinforce pre-existing opinions.
Jesus, McFlock,
You haven't independently looked him up past that tweet? That's the first thing I do when someone links. Try it. I usually follow up by trying to find original papers or articles. I wouldn't post or repost links that I didn't think to have some relevance or credibility. That's why I don't post links to Auntie Betty's Instagram.
So, not the messenger, now the medium… and still not the message.
My comment wasn't about him.
My comment was about seeking out links that allegedly support one's position, then seeking out other links when the first ones fall down.
ohmahgerd Laurel crushes all her opponents because "male" is now it doesn't matter whether she wins or not because she lost. Contradictory positions each with their own curated twitter expert in support. Should I go looking for Twitterers who agree with me and post that?
Twitter schmitter. It's just the latest iteration of the gish gallop – an easy link that might or might not be a thorough and fair reflection of reality, but when that one's dealt with there are a dozen others.
Doubling down, a la Collins.
The link is not about Hubbard herself. In fact, your comment makes lie to your claim to have looked at it (unless by looking you meant reading the tweet, not actually watching the video). In which case, disingenuous.
We can sit together and moan about the level of fatuous comment on Twitter and social media. But the question here is are you approaching this discussion in good faith?
Respect for open dialogue and basic intellectual curiosity should have motivated you to click the link after searching credentials. Then a discussion on content could take place seeking resolution.
You spend more time posting while uninformed of the actual (not ascribed) concern arguments, than it would take to discuss them.
At this stage, is there any way anyone could raise concerns with you and have them respectfully discussed?
Well, after the one six weeks ago where I had to look at the partial result sheet from a single event, find a repository of weightlifting results (which I never knew existed), identify the specific event from which those results had been lifted, and then find they were contrary to the rest of Hubbard's record (much closer when in her actual weight range, e.g. the Olympics) which strongly indicated that the twittered snapshot had been cherry-picked… this time I didn't feel like putting in that level of work to look at a tweet that was shared because someone happened to agree with it. I read it, watched it, ignored the appeals to authority, and remained unimpressed. You want me to do a lit review? Nope.
I suppose providing a link to something in text that demonstrates the commenter actually did enough to get a feel of the general direction of wider discussion within the specific research community might work. Something other than posting a tweet that was shared with one because the algorithm knew one already agreed with it.
You're still missing the point that a sample bias in an evidence review can lead to as many problems as it does in data. And social media, as a source, builds links around a sample bias.
You are determined to not discuss the actual subject.
How convenient that a Phd in Sports Science can be dismissed because he uses Twitter.
Lit review? No thanks. I have grave concerns about your reading ability and comprehension as it is. Let's leave the possibility I am wrong on the table.
"You are determined to not discuss the actual subject."
Indeed.
There's nothing wrong with twitter as a source so long as one understands how to use twitter as a source. I don't see it too different from TS, echo chamber that it is at times. Someone says something, we still have to assess the usefulness and veracity of it. It's not that hard, so I don't really know what McFlock is on about. And tbh, not going to put much effort in to understanding because while talking about twitter and algorithms and critical thinking would be an interesting convo at another time, here it just feels like a derail.
If the tweeps expert in their field on twitter aren't good enough sources, then there's probably not much to be done 😉
People can talk about what they want (there's no obligation for McFlock to talk about the issues raised), my links were to discuss the fairness or otherwise of males competing in women's sport so when someone responds to that I'll probably be interested again.
Because individual doctors can never be wrong, even in their speciality?
On occasion. people have posted articles (even peer reviewed articles) or hard data (even partial data, e.g. six weeks ago). Findings of courts and various bodies. That sort of thing I can look at with some hope of learning something.
But if you don't get that most social media is designed around handing you stuff and connections that reinforce your beliefs, then you're in the queue for a tinfoil hat. Because sooner or later a preconception that was mildly held and slightly incorrect will be watered, filtered and cultivated into some prize-winning nuts.
I understand how social media works, and I think it's possible to take that into account via critical thinking.
Scammers love people who think they know how the trick is done. It makes things easier.
I don’t get this. Laurel Hubbard qualified for the Olympics and those standards are understandably high as Eliza McCartney can attest, for example, who won Bronze only 5 years ago, but failed to meet the threshold this time.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/women-in-sport/300337293/tokyo-olympics-agony-tears-for-eliza-mccartney-olivia-mctaggart-as-games-bid-misfires
In other words, why would Hubbard’s “base level” be too low!?
Its a weird analogy. Base is the athletes performance on the day. Advantage is a basically constant performance boost (usually zero).
You have ascribed meanings to both 'base' and 'advantage', that are not what was described in the link. So I'm guessing you haven't really looked before commenting. Makes your blitheness a dismissal of commenting, rather than content. Becoming a bit of a habit on TS it seems.
I this Laurel is likely to need a great deal of support after the loss which I hope she gets