Duncan Garner and the great Christmas beatup

Written By: - Date published: 12:56 pm, November 30th, 2015 - 114 comments
Categories: journalism, the praiseworthy and the pitiful - Tags: , ,

Duncan Garner does good work sometimes, but is also capable of complete bollocks:

Duncan Garner: Let’s squash the PC race relations office and move on

I’d almost forgotten about the ludicrous decision to appoint a squash player as the country’s race relations commissioner – till Susan Devoy dropped another clanger.

And what a howler it was, throwing her (insignificant) weight behind Auckland Regional Migrants Services’ plan to ditch the word Christmas and refer instead to “happy holidays” and “season’s greetings”.

Apparently Devoy, the service’s patron, wants to save the majority of Kiwis (who are not Christian) from feeling excluded at this time of year. Good grief.

It’s time to ditch her role and the entire office she heads. …

Toby Manhire at The Spinoff does an excellent job at dissecting this nonsense:

On all that Susan-Devoy-Wants-to-Ban-Christmas Bullshit

Beat-ups about do-gooders wanting to “ban Christmas” have become a mainstay of the leadup to the festive season the world over. This year in New Zealand, the target is Susan Devoy, the Race Relations Commissioner, who caused outrage – outrage, I tell you! – by failing to condemn the Auckland Regional Migrant Services’ long-standing preference for the words “happy holidays” and “season’s greetings” over “Christmas”.

Duncan Garner was incandescent at this “trumped-up office pandering to political correctness”, this “crusade against Christmas“.

Garner was one of a number of fuming chimneys outraged – outraged, I tell you! – in print, on radio and online.

And yet what did Devoy actually, you know, say? She said nothing in the original report to discourage the use of “Christmas” and confirmed it was not banned at the Commission. She is quoted as saying: “New Zealanders don’t like being told what to do and we are mature enough to decide how to celebrate our special days in our own ways.” Which hardly seems all that controversial a thing to say in a secular country.

As if it wasn’t clear enough, Devoy explained in a piece published in the Herald two days before Garner’s column, “I have no plans to ban Christmas, not that I could, and it is not part of my job to tell anyone how to celebrate Christmas. I’ve never said we or anyone else should ban Christmas and I never would. What I did say is it’s up to everyday New Zealanders to decide how to observe Christmas. Kiwis hate being told what to do. I wouldn’t welcome anyone telling me what to do on December 25.” She concluded by saying – gasp! – “Merry Christmas and let there be peace on earth.”

I’m pretty sure Garner was just trolling for clicks, and knew exactly what he was doing, because there’s a certain amount of self-awareness in this tweet:

To which Scott Milne has the perfect reply:

114 comments on “Duncan Garner and the great Christmas beatup”

  1. Tracey 1

    I was aghast when Devoy was appointed. Mostly because I had heard and seen her speak on a number of occasions at which she would behave inappropriately or criticize something for being too “PC”. However she is an example of what happens when people become educated on a topic they had lots of opinions about, but little actual knowledge. Well done her for moving from the place she was to the place she is today.

    Duncan’s turn. If he has the courage.

    • Daniel Cale 1.1

      I would add, Tracey, that ‘becoming educated’ is simply a left win term for ‘agreeing with the group think’. Devoy hasn’t become educated, she’s become indoctrinated.

      • tracey 1.1.1

        🙄

        Of course you would cos otherwise your comfy little place in the world would shift. As I wrote it I wondered how long before someone said brainwashed. And there you were. But tell me, which bit did she get “wrong”?

        • Daniel Cale 1.1.1.1

          Pretending that we should take into account the sensitivities of migrants. Pretending that we should apologise or be less than proud of our own culture and history.

          We should do neither. When I travel overseas I respect, in fact I celebrate, the foibles of the ‘local’ culture. That’s what makes them ‘comfy’ in their culture. We should be preserving what makes for ours.

          • Murray Simmonds 1.1.1.1.1

            Daniell Cale: ” . . . the foibles of the ‘local’ culture”.

            Just take a look in the mirror, Daniel to see the foibles of the local culture in action. You don’t need to travel overseas to see it. What a totally ignorant ethnocentric, self-satisfied statement! You wouldn’t be a national party voter by any chance would you?

            • Daniel Cale 1.1.1.1.1.1

              ‘Foibles’ are eccentricities. We all have them. Most countries are doing a good job at preserving them. Regrettably the west seems to be pandering to those whose cultures are so repressive they leave to join ours. Spot the irony?

          • DoublePlusGood 1.1.1.1.2

            The part of our culture and history that is vacuous appeals to our culture and history thinly disguising prejudice and bigotry is a part I can do without.

            • Daniel Cale 1.1.1.1.2.1

              Vacuous? Christmas? It’s a fun celebration, part of our culture for centuries.

              • DoublePlusGood

                The appeals to tradition (including the tradition of Christmas) being a mask for prejudice and bigotry is what I described as vacuous, not Christmas.
                Which you would have worked out if you had actually read the sentence carefully.

                • Daniel Cale

                  That’s NOT what you wrote at all. Your comment was in the context of a discussion about Christmas. The celebration of Christmas is neither prejudiced or bigoted, any more so that celebrating eid, hannukah, diwali, guy fawkes etc etc. Perhaps you are another looking for offence, prejudice and bigotry in every comment you disagree with.

                  • DoublePlusGood

                    Seriously just read my damn comment carefully before coming to some incorrect conclusion about what I wrote.

  2. Muttonbird 2

    Duncan Garner does good work sometimes

    – ANTHONY R0BINS

    Really?

    Garner is increasingly a tabloid scribbler and thinker as far as I’m concerned. He’s just what Manhire says, a manufacturer of outrage.

  3. Tc 3

    Garner shows yet again hes a shit stirring shock jock with ratings to boost.

    A proper journo with objective integrity would not perform a lazy dogwhistle like this but here we are with talkback trash being passed off as news.

  4. Tracey 4

    r0b – she wrote a reply to Duncan in yesterday’s SST. Am trying to find the link.

    here it is

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/74532649/duncan-garner-were-mad-for-peace-not-pc-gone-mad

    “Duncan – and others whose opinions are amplified across our television, radio and newspapers – must do better in showing responsible leadership in the national debate about race relations. They are opinion leaders and their opinions are powerful: dismissing anything they don’t like as PC gone mad is dumbing down a very important conversation New Zealanders need to have.”

    Hear Hear!

    • Muttonbird 4.2

      The key point she made is Garner = dumbing down, which is indicative of the way journalism is headed in this country. It’s a shame because the opposite should be true.

      • Tracey 4.2.1

        ALL people who brandish “PC…” as a substitute for an argument are dumbing down the discussion, and it has been goingon for years. Garner is a follower it his regard not a trend setter but in his position, as Devoy points out, it is a misuse of the power he has been given.

        • Sacha 4.2.1.1

          ‘Down with respect for other people’ #grrr

          • tracey 4.2.1.1.1

            I agree. When people do the PC thing to me, I ask them to repharse and instead of PC use – respect for others _…

            • Anno1701 4.2.1.1.1.1

              “Political correctness” doesn’t exist. The only place you will ever hear the term used is in the right wing media. It’s never the basis for decision making, it never appears in law. Nothing.

              “Political correctness” is a right-wing buzzword for social skills they would like to be able to get by without having, And of course some people just get sad because society will disapprove when they say shitty things in public

  5. Daniel Cale 5

    Christmas is a part of the history and culture of NZ. If migrants are offended by it (which, btw I doubt very much), then they need to get a life. Devoy is a huge disappointment, having become a slave to the notion that everyones culture has value except ours. Well done Duncan.

    • tracey 5.1

      ““New Zealanders don’t like being told what to do and we are mature enough to decide how to celebrate our special days in our own ways.”

      ““I have no plans to ban Christmas, not that I could, and it is not part of my job to tell anyone how to celebrate Christmas. I’ve never said we or anyone else should ban Christmas and I never would. What I did say is it’s up to everyday New Zealanders to decide how to observe Christmas. Kiwis hate being told what to do. I wouldn’t welcome anyone telling me what to do on December 25.” She concluded by saying – gasp! – “Merry Christmas and let there be peace on earth.”

      Reading is a skill Daniel. If you have a reading difficulty I am sorry and apologise but it seems to me that the part of the reading skill-set that you lack, is reading beyond the bit that you mirrors your small minded world view back to you and reading to the end. Oh and clicking the links and reading them. So less a problem with making out words and phrases but actually bothering to read them at all..

      • Ross 5.1.1

        She said the Trust’s language was about inclusion, not exclusion. So I presume she suggested to them that they include the word Christmas! 🙂

        Alas, that isn’t what her press release says.

      • Daniel Cale 5.1.2

        You underestimate me. I read her statement very carefully, and it is spoken with a forked tongue. In her capacity as Patron of Auckland Migrant Services she is proposing ceasing to use the term “Christmas’. This isn’t not using the term, it is ceasing to use the term. This is a betrayal of our culture, of our history. That’s why there has been an outcry, not because of Duncan Garner.

        • tracey 5.1.2.1

          WASPMs forever aye Daniel, you must hate the PM wanting to change the flag and throw aay all that WASPM hisotry of yours?

          • Daniel Cale 5.1.2.1.1

            “WASP’s”??? Are you seriously trying to make this a racial issue now? This is about NZ’s history and culture. What’s wrong with preserving Christmas? The Chinese came and accepted it. The Phillipino’s. The Vietnamese. The Cambodians. For goodness sake the event celebrates the birth of a middle eastern man in the west bank who grew up in what is now called the ‘Arab capital of Israel’!

            • Draco T Bastard 5.1.2.1.1.1

              This is about NZ’s history and culture.

              Culture lives, breaths and changes as it does so. To try to keep it the same is to kill it.

              What’s wrong with preserving Christmas?

              Because it’s all a load of BS.

              • Daniel Cale

                “Culture lives, breaths and changes as it does so. To try to keep it the same is to kill it.”

                Nonsense. Culture (and you will note I also mentioned history) can change, but it can also be preserved.

                “Because it’s all a load of BS.”

                To you, perhaps. So don’t celebrate it. Turn yourself into scrooge for a day, but leave the rest of us alone.

                • Draco T Bastard

                  Culture (and you will note I also mentioned history) can change, but it can also be preserved.

                  No, it really can’t. You may want to believe otherwise but that’s all it is – your belief and not associated in any way with reality.

                  So don’t celebrate it. Turn yourself into scrooge for a day, but leave the rest of us alone.

                  I don’t do Xmas but I do go out and see family and you really should note that those who do celebrate Xmas in NZ now make up less than 50% of the population so you’re massively exaggerating when you say “the rest of us”.

    • Muttonbird 5.2

      Daniel Cale is the dumbed down bit of New Zealand which Garner appeals to.

      • Grindlebottom 5.2.1

        Not on this point he’s not. It’s a valid viewpoint that ARMS shouldn’t be discouraging references to Christmas and Easter.

        • One Anonymous Bloke 5.2.1.1

          Possibly, and that isn’t poor Daniel’s position: he’s whinging about something Susan Devoy didn’t say.

          • tracey 5.2.1.1.1

            This ^^^^^

          • Daniel Cale 5.2.1.1.2

            No, I’m not. I’m supporting what Duncan Garner wrote.

            • One Anonymous Bloke 5.2.1.1.2.1

              By whinging about something Susan Devoy didn’t say. Whinging and whinging and whinging.

              • Daniel Cale

                No, I’m responding to precisely what Devoy DID say, and has affirmed in her statement released since the comments.

                • One Anonymous Bloke

                  a slave to the notion that everyones culture has value except ours

                  1. Your “culture”: racist wingnut prejudice, has no value. In fact it has negative value.

                  2. European culture respects and defends human rights. You have no claim over it.

                  3. Devoy didn’t say that, I did.

                  • Daniel Cale

                    1. You have no idea what my culture is.
                    2. Yes, and in that it is actually fairly unique. Try going to an Islamic theocracy and feigning offence at Ramadan.

                    • Muttonbird

                      1. You have no idea what my culture is.

                      -Daniel CaleNeither do you but the looks of it. NZ is all White Christmas to you.

        • Pascals bookie 5.2.1.2

          How are they “discouraging references to Christmas and Easter”?

          they are just choosing not to reference them for their own do, and Garner, Yardley , DPF and various other assorted bods have gotten all Fox News ‘War on Christmea’ about it.

          But what are they actually arguing? That people ‘have’ to say ‘Christmas’? Even if they don’t want to becausd eotherwise they might offend talkback people or whoever?

          What the hell sort of PC gone mad is that?

          • tracey 5.2.1.2.1

            The kind the Right Support.

            • Draco T Bastard 5.2.1.2.1.1

              +1

              The right-wing are all into telling everyone else how to live their lives.

          • Daniel Cale 5.2.1.2.2

            “How are they “discouraging references to Christmas and Easter”?”

            By removing those references from the event. Isn’t that obvious?

            • Pascals bookie 5.2.1.2.2.1

              So if I don’t do something, am I discouraging you from doing it?

              I mean, would a ‘fesitivus dinner’ discourage a ‘christmas dinner’, or are they just different people doing what they want?

              You seem to be saying that everyone must name events at this time of year as Christmas events, even if they’d rather not, lest they discourage other people from having named Christmas events. Even though no one is saying you can’t have a named Christmas event if that’s what you want to do.

              Is that really what you are saying? Because if so, then it’s you who is telling people what they can and can’t do. That’s obvious isn’t it?

              • Daniel Cale

                “So if I don’t do something, am I discouraging you from doing it?”

                If you did do it, then told people to stop doing it, then yes.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 5.3

      No, Daniel, in fact, the bogeyman that so terrifies you doesn’t actually exist.

      As Tracey says, if you possessed reading skills you’d know that. Do you get paid to make right wingers look illiterate?

      • McFlock 5.3.1

        butbutbut CHRISTMAS IS UNDER ATTTAAACCKK!!!!!!!!!!

      • Daniel Cale 5.3.2

        There is no bogeyman. Just a race relations conciliator who has decided to remove reference to a part of our history and culture. Like someone proposing we stop referencing ANZAC day because it might offend the Turks. Or VE day for the sake of the Germans.

        • tracey 5.3.2.1

          And you have not understood Ms Devoy’s own words, choosing Mr Garner’s spin on them, which was my point above. Someoen seeking to remove Christmas from the vocab wouldn’t sign off wishing people a Merry Christmas. .

          To aid you further

          Duncan Garner and the great Christmas beatup

          • Daniel Cale 5.3.2.1.1

            “Someoen seeking to remove Christmas from the vocab wouldn’t sign off wishing people a Merry Christmas. .”

            Don’t be absurd. Devoy is stung by the reaction and is back-peddling. Besides, I never claimed Devoy is seeking to “remove Christmas form the vocab”. She’s just removing it from this particularly celebration to pander to some invented offence that may be taken by immigrants who I’d bet probably wouldn’t take any offence.

            • tracey 5.3.2.1.1.1

              Given your disdain expressed for immigrants earlier, what makes you think you are in any position to “bet” what they would or what not take offence to? Look at how offended and affronted you are at having your christian festival threatened (even when it is not)?

              • Daniel Cale

                I have not expressed any disdain for immigrants, in fact I value them greatly. What I despise is this white liberal guilt people like Devoy have been sucked in to. Te migrants I know have come to NZ for a better life, INCLUDING our history and culture and the freedoms we have to exercise our beliefs and celebrate our traditions. Do you not see we rob them of that experience each time we pander to weak minded people like Devoy.

            • One Anonymous Bloke 5.3.2.1.1.2

              She’s just removing it from this particularly celebration.

              Stop lying: you don’t get to celebrate liar culture Daniel.

              The lunch you refer to has always been called a festive lunch.

              Arms works hard to include peoples from all faiths to work together in peace and diversity,

              Arms uses language that will encompass and include everyone; it is not designed to exclude anyone.

              New Zealanders don’t like being told what to do and we are mature enough to decide how to celebrate our special days in our own ways.

              What part of the word “always” are you illiterate about, Daniel?

              • tracey

                Well Duncan triggered his zenophobia, and no matte rhow much he has proven to be wrong, he just can’t bring himself to back down in the face of being made to look foolish by Garner.

                25 Dec 2015 is the day of the Celebration of Christmas. The whole month of December is not a Christian Christma sFestival. It has become a focus as retailers realised they could make bucks. I note you are not outraged at your religious day being hijacked for money making purposes (money changers tables and all that Daniel).

              • Daniel Cale

                Thanks OAB. You’re quote precisely supports my point. Unless you are harbouring under the illusion that wishing someone happy Christmas is somehow “designed to exclude” someone. LOL.

                • One Anonymous Bloke

                  No, you witless illiterate fuck-knuckle: it is perfectly clear whose policy this is and it isn’t Devoy’s, as you claimed, you lying racist sack of shit.

        • One Anonymous Bloke 5.3.2.2

          Answer the question: do you take money to make wingnuts look illiterate?

    • North 5.4

      You’re really determined to proceed like fool in the face of the very best of evidence aren’t you Daniel Cale ? Devoy’s own, exact, words. But NO ! Devoy said something completely different. YES ! She did ! She Did !

      Now that is weird.

      • tracey 5.4.1

        And Duncan Garner said she said something completely different, and I support him and even when I see that she didnt say what Duncans said she said, cos I told Tracey I read it very carefully, I still support Duncan cos he was attacking something I don’t like and so on and so forth and heretowtih what Duncan said.

      • Daniel Cale 5.4.2

        Because you seem to just be repeating comments made elsewhere, I will say this one more time. Devoy has recomended and defended the removal of references to Christmas from an event run by an organisation of whom she is the patron. This has been done on the basis that those references may make migrants feel uncomfortable. My objection is simple. If we are to remove references that make migrants uncomfortable, then we risk fundamentally changing the society migrants so desperately want to join. When will you realise the irony of that?

        • lprent 5.4.2.1

          Oh FFS. Most of the population are quite secular, including me.

          Christmas sucks these days. All it means is that we wind up getting hot and bothered doing some shopping and then have some time with some bits of our extended families. Oh and work shuts down for enough days to have some time off without using too much holiday days. It is more of drag than a tradition. The sooner it gets knocked on the head the better.

          I have no idea what “tradition” is involved in that. Basically you read like a religious nutter trying to impose some ideas on me. Are you a Morman missionary?

        • tracey 5.4.2.2

          “The Auckland Regional Migrants Services Trust prefers non-religious, secular language when inviting communities to attend some of their events because they don’t want non-Christians to think they aren’t included in the invitation. Their choice of language is about inclusion not exclusion.” Susan Devoy

          “My objection is simple. If we are to remove references that make migrants uncomfortable, then we risk fundamentally changing the society migrants so desperately want to join. When will you realise the irony of that?” Daniel Cale

          IT IS A MIGRANT SERVICE! Their role is to assist MIGRANTS. Ergo they need to make sure that they encourage people to attend their events to assure their assimilation into society in such a way as to make people like you feel comfortable having migrants amidst your WASPM sensibilities. It is Duncan Garner and YOU who has extrapolated that very specific statement to mean Christmas must begone from every part of NZ.

          some invented offence that may be taken by immigrants who I’d bet probably wouldn’t take any offence. Daniel Cale

          Yeah a woman involved in providing services to migrants knows less about what might discouraged migrants from attending an event than, say, a guy who has no understanding of migrant needs and apears to think that if they come here they must just instantly adopt everything he holds dear or fuck off.

          • Daniel Cale 5.4.2.2.1

            “IT IS A MIGRANT SERVICE! Their role is to assist MIGRANTS. ”

            Precisely! Which is why we should not be changing the language of an event we have celebrated for centuries. It isn’t the migrants asking for this, it is pasty white liberals.

            “and apears to think that if they come here they must just instantly adopt everything he holds dear or fuck off.”

            When did I say that? I’m not asking migrants to adapt, just to respect our traditions, in the same way I respect other cultures traditions.

    • Paul Campbell 5.5

      With christians now a minority within NZ, requiring everyone to celebrate christian holidays seems such a quaint old fashioned idea.

      In our house we celebrate xmas, the capitalist holiday of buying stuff for other people, we’ve tied a $20 to the top of the tree since the kids were little

      • Grindlebottom 5.5.1

        we’ve tied a $20 to the top of the tree since the kids were little

        Safety hazard?

  6. Ross 6

    What Devoy did say was “The Auckland Regional Migrants Services Trust prefers non-religious, secular language when inviting communities to attend some of their events because they don’t want non-Christians to think they aren’t included in the invitation. Their choice of language is about inclusion not exclusion.”

    http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO1511/S00386/an-open-letter-to-new-zealanders-christmas-is-still-on.htm

    So will the Auckland Regional Migrants Services Trust be talking about Christmas or not? There’s nothing in the above, or in the link, to say that the Trust are embracing Christmas, which indicates the word might be off limits.

    What Devoy could have said to the Trust is that use of the word Christmas need not be avoided.

    • Hanswurst 6.1

      Christmas is part of the holiday season, therefore “happy holidays” and “season’s greetings” include good wishes for anybody celebrating Christmas. Therefore you are wrong.

  7. Grindlebottom 7

    I was curious whether the Auckland Regional Migrant Service avoided the use of other religions’ Anniversary or Feast Day names as well. Google brought up this item from Dr Mary Dawson, CEO of the ARMS Trust:

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11550676

    For any cultural or religious celebration, whether Christmas, Diwali, Eid or Matariki, our multicultural staff use appropriate greetings and celebrate, for example, by bringing Diwali sweets to share, or handing out chocolate eggs at Easter.

    They kind of imply that they have an all-embracing policy, though why refer to “Diwali sweets”, but then “chocolate eggs” when the normal term is Easter eggs? I have a sneaking suspicion “Christmas” and “Easter” are more determinedly discouraged at ARMS than references to “Diwali”, “Eid”, “Matariki” etc.

    I can’t help wondering whose idea it was at ARMS to drop references to Christmas and Easter. I’d bet the refugees themselves didn’t have a problem with it; they have to eventually settle into a community where even secular atheists like myself normally use these terms and follow the customary practices of holidays, gift-giving and Christian good wishes such as Merry or Happy Christmas. I have no problem with Ramadan/Eid or Diwali, or Matariki: why should ARMS assume observers of these religious festivals might have a problem with Xmas?

    Garner’s mucked up though. He’d have been best to let this one go and not blow it up.

    • Ross 7.1

      Our multicultural staff use “appropriate” greetings? That implies that Merry Christmas might not be appropriate for some. How does ARMS know if saying Merry Christmas to a migrant is appropriate ?

      • Daniel Cale 7.1.1

        It shouldn’t matter. We should not be determining what parts of our history and culture we maintain because of the sensibilities of immigrants. No other culture does.

        • tracey 7.1.1.1

          Thank God the Maori didn’t think that way aye Daniel, to your ancestors and mine, who were (cough) immigrants.

          • Daniel Cale 7.1.1.1.1

            They DID think that way Tracey. They killed and ate our ancestors. But they were also very smart, and adopted some of the new customs, while preserving their own. Bizzarely you have made my point.

        • Rawsharkosaurus 7.1.1.2

          It is ironic that you are expressing that sentiment in an immigrant language, English, and not an indigenous language of this country.

    • North 7.2

      Persuasive argument there GBottom. Enjoyed the last bit. “Garner’s mucked up though……..”. Certainly deserves to.

      Daniel Cale and mate Garner are the only buggers screaming about this thing.

      This is not a drama. Specially not I’m sure to the people it touchs. That’s why he’s gonna look a dick. S’pose it could be whipped up into one though. Drama I mean.

      No……that’d require the attendance of a man who would do that. Drama I mean. The Good Garner wouldn’t do that. Drama I mean.

  8. Ross 8

    This is the same Susan Devoy that said Labour were racist to use Chinese sounding names to assess house buying behaviour in Auckland, and she also complained about some cartoons a year ago. She said they offended her (though she admitted they weren’t racist). I don’t care whether she is offended or not. Taking offence isn’t in her job description.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/70854977/labour-says-devoy-out-of-line-for-calling-it-racist-over-chinese-buyers

  9. Muttonbird 9

    Look at all the right wingers desperately trying to take offence at something which isn’t there, gleefully taking the rancid bait which Garner dropped.

  10. Morrissey 10

    A decade or so ago that dunderhead Bill O’Reilly was saying the same things as that dunderhead Duncan Garner. David Letterman took the opportunity to tell O’Reilly that he thought most of what he (O’Reilly) says is “crap”….

    http://mediamatters.org/research/2006/01/04/in-letterman-appearance-oreilly-repeated-false/134554

  11. millsy 11

    Christmas has so much parts of it burrowed from all sorts of faiths and religions anyway. It is completely bastardised.

    I am not offended when someone says “Happy Holidays” or ‘Merry Christmas’. Some of just like like to have fun and enjoy the season.

  12. Daniel Cale 12

    There is an element of this debate that is being overlooked, and that is why we even need a Race Relations Conciliator. Or a Human Rights Commission. Or a Ministry of Womens Affairs. Or…well you get the idea. These are all just organisations of privilege. And as I pay for a portion of all of the above, and yet am not represented by a single one, I say destroy them all and save some money. I know, get rid of the lot and donate the savings to the Sallies.

    • tracey 12.1

      It’s because of people like you Daniel that we need them. You couldn’t have displayed the need for them more.

      I note you chose a Christian organisation to give all our money to.

      • Daniel Cale 12.1.1

        I’m not the one to have invoked a racial connection, you are. But I’d be happy for the funds to go to another charity if you don’t think the sallies are worthy. Except Greenpeace, Amnesty Intl and a few other fellow travellers.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 12.2

      Destroy you first. Capice?

    • DoublePlusGood 12.3

      You mean the hateful, homophobic Salvation Army? No thanks. It is because of the behaviour of groups like them and other bigots that we need these government organisations and quangos.

  13. Vaughan Little 13

    I don’t get liberal sensitivities in a major way.

    it’s so easy to piss people off and I never see it coming. people throw the term “white male” around like it’s a term of abuse that’s gonna put,me back in my place. I copped some pretty nasty comments on facebook once; was a key decider for me to stop posting comments there. stuff about “go back to the 50s and beat up your wife” from memory. also dissing of Christians, all of which I see permutations of above.

    anyone know any good guides to understanding liberal dudgeon? I’ve done some poking around and the guy it all seems to go back to, far as I can tell, is Foucault. not that he was very angry, but he tended to see everything as a power struggle. ergo, “white” dudes can only oppress. I hear the name of Stuart Hall too but haven’t looked into him.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 13.1

      The only people I see getting pissed off here are wingnut trolls, bleating about something that doesn’t exist. The relentless whining about “political correctness” (shorthand for “I am too lazy and stupid to address the issue”) renders any “liberal” complaint inaudible.

      Why are wingnut trolls so thin-skinned that any criticism of their behaviour is met with such a querulous chorous?

    • tracey 13.2

      I typed a response and deleted it.

      Second try

      Some people who you didnt know, and didnt ever have to meet wrote some nasty stuff on a Facebook page about you. Sorry to hear it. No one likes to be bilittled or abused for being how they were born.

      Now, imagine how what you felt feels when it is in your company, your workplace, your social life and prevents you directly or insidioulsy from achieving the things you want in life. When it is done to your face or prevents you getting a job or a promition or a flat for your family…

      • Daniel Cale 13.2.1

        Happens to almost everyone, Tracey. Most of us build a bridge…

        • DoublePlusGood 13.2.1.1

          Many of us don’t get to build a bridge. And when we try bridge-building, people like you pull the bridge down.

          • Daniel Cale 13.2.1.1.1

            There is never any reason not to build a bridge, other than self indulgence.

            • DoublePlusGood 13.2.1.1.1.1

              So racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia and other prejudice doesn’t exist then?

            • One Anonymous Bloke 13.2.1.1.1.2

              It’s a one-way bridge. Or I am reminded of Kosovo, where residents of a town “kept to their side” of the bridge. And shot anyone who made it to the middle.

              Slow clap. Imagine it. Danny decides he likes people who are like Danny. He rejects the other. He contracts a sexually transmitted disease: limited exposure to outgroups. Slow clap.

    • Daniel Cale 13.3

      You’re right, of course. But chin up. Being a white, heterosexual male is fantastic! We might not have the new privilege that comes from being brown, gay and female, but let’s celebrate diversity! Unless of course that diversity includes white, hetero males.

      • Muttonbird 13.3.1

        Your comment makes you seem rather insecure and intolerant which ironically is the sort of behaviour you pretend to argue against.

      • DoublePlusGood 13.3.2

        Please feel free to tell us all the ways someone who is brown, gay and female is privileged in our society…

        • Daniel Cale 13.3.2.1

          You need to be told? At the risk of being told off for some kind of ‘ism’ or ‘phobia’, I’ll name just one: The Independent Maori Statutory Board. Unelected. Unaccountable. Unnecessary. Great work, but only if you’re Maori.

          • DoublePlusGood 13.3.2.1.1

            You mean the board appointed to represent the interests of Māori, who are structurally discriminated against, yet have traditional claims under the Treaty of Waitangi to significant parts of Auckland?
            Seems to me like that’s the sort of group that absolutely needs representation, for both legal and social development reasons. I do think that it could be elected with votes from people registered with an iwi or urban Māori authority who live in the region. The board would then be at least democratically accountable.
            If I were you I would be much more concerned about the unelected, unaccountable Council Controlled Organisations that run the finances of Auckland, like ATEED, than a Māori advisory board.

          • One Anonymous Bloke 13.3.2.1.2

            Daniel, I doubt you are arguing in good faith, and if you are, you’ll have no choice but to note the outcomes for various groups within New Zealand.

            If despite the odds you are arguing in good faith, your recognition (which is obvious to all but you) that you feel superior and privileged is what marks you as a blithering idiot.

            If you aren’t providing evidence in support of Hodson & Busseri’s dubious conclusions, you’re defending bias with mendacity. Slow clap.

  14. Vaughan Little 14

    these dismal little chats we have…

    the secular state can never guarantee freedom of religion. what it does is pushes the agenda of freedom from religion. Of Course a senior government spokeswoman supports “neutral” language. this is just another step in the attempted long eradication of Christianity from the public life of the nation. some commenters above have taken a far more admirable position than devoy’s essentially dishonest one: get rid of Christmas altogether as a public holiday. fits with my mood, perhaps a bit stingy, that if liberals hate us so much, why the hell should they be able to enjoy our holidays and customs? why should our churches be open for their weddings? why should their bloodthirsty nations be strengthened by institutions of public education and public healthcare that were the product of the church’s response to Christ’s message anyway.

    and if we took it all back underground again, would that have any effect on the future of liberalism, that late cheap toxic rip off of the Christian message?

    neutral language – go the whole way and remove the word democracy from public discourse since so many migrants come from countries (and got pretty rich in them) where democracy was anathema. ban anything about Islam on tv since lots so contentious a topic these days. quietly drop the word “india” from the newspapers as a sign of support for neutrality over jammu and kashmir. remove the British flag because of the maoris, remove the maoris because of the racists.

    what case can be made for neutrality that is not hateful?

    • One Anonymous Bloke 14.1

      The “Christian” message is itself “ripped off”. Pretending ownership of it doesn’t seem very Christian to me. Bearing false witness much?

  15. vaughan little 15

    “The “Christian” message is itself “ripped off”. Pretending ownership of it doesn’t seem very Christian to me. Bearing false witness much?”

    it aint a rip off if you acknowledge your sources and show your working.

    it’s inane comments like yours which confirm my belief that christians need to start responding in an organized, thoughtful way with the kulturkampf against us, rather than just grimacingly going along with it.

    -suppression of the use of christian words in the public domain
    -suppression of biblical knowledge the schools, even though the bible is history’s most important book
    -miseducation around christianity – that it’s somehow more violent that liberalism (!!) or anti science (!!!)

    today i’m going to teach a bunch of poor kids for way lower pay than i could get if my goal was to maxamise my earning potential. then on friday i’m off to make sure some other kids wash whose parents are too poor to raise them. of course it’s not just me, there are other christians going with me. christianity IS good news for the poor. THAT’S what you want to suppress.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 15.1

      Are you talking about Lord Krisna’s virgin birth or Lao Tzu’s humanist values? By the way, the “ripped off” accusation is yours: I don’t see it that way. Witch-doctors co-opt humanist values to render their mumbo-pocus more palatable.

      Please note that I’m not denying that mumbo-pocus can be a force for good: it’s just when its exponents start claiming the moral high ground that I feel obliged to cut your ankles off.

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