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Flact Tax

Written By: - Date published: 7:54 am, June 17th, 2019 - 175 comments
Categories: act, benefits, business, david seymour, Economy, making shit up, spin, tax, taxpayers union, the praiseworthy and the pitiful, welfare, you couldn't make this shit up - Tags:

So the party of the 0.4% has spoken and intends to not only establish a freedom to abuse and insult, particularly to the hooded type, but they are also proposing a flat income tax.  That will decimate the Government’s finances and mean that for the bottom 64% of taxpayers the amount of tax they pay will increase but hey.

Why would you do such a thing?  Why give a professional on a quarter of a million a year a tax break of $44,000 while expecting most taxpayers to pay more tax?  Well there is this novel theory that if you give the wealthy even more resources the benefit will trickle down on those below them and we will somehow all be richer.

This theory has the usual band of supporters:

From the press release:

Union Spokesman Jordan Williams says, “This would be a huge shot in the arm to the business sector, and amount to massive savings for the average family.”

“A lower tax burden means more money for employment, savings, and higher wages. It would also better reward workers who progress in their careers, instead of punishing them with higher and higher tax rates.”

“The biggest losers from ACT’s policy would be the IRD, tax lawyers, and accountants, all of whom would lose work in the face of a simple one-rate system.”

It is funny that a self described union should be advocating for a tax increase to most of the people it purports to represent.  Shouldn’t they be representing all tax payers, not only the wealthy ones?

The proposal is also odd because lawyers and accountants will, unless they have exceptional tax avoidance measures, benefit from it.

And what of this trickle down theory?  Well even its inventor had a significant qualification, the tax being reduced had to be originally over 50% which New Zealand’s top tax rate is not.

And it does not work for very clear reasons.  Rich people tend to either hoard their money, buy luxury items usually sourced from overseas, go on more overseas holidays, or invest more in real estate, thereby driving up prices and rent expectations.  Very little of the benefit trickles down.  If they were serious in their desire to help everyone they would be better off bypassing the middle man and giving the money to the bottom 64%.

And it completely ignores the needs of the state to adequately fund health, social welfare, education, police and so on.  All of which are apparently in Act’s eyes nice to haves.

The right have this reputation of being good managers of the economics.    I have always thought their skills to be more suited to snake skin salesmen.

The proposal is ridiculous.  Only a party polling well within the margin of error would even think of making a proposal like this in the hope of attracting a few more close to the extreme to supporting it.

175 comments on “Flact Tax ”

  1. Cinny 1

    If act have changed their branding to pink, and are using the word freedom, does that mean they are subliminally trying to gain support from the LGBTQ etc community?

    Theory #2….. act is going to be giving away free tampons, their branding so reminds me of tampon advertising.

    • Dukeofurl 1.1

      "Magenta" Blah blah blah diversity

      Someone has been captured by the branding marketing industry.

      reminds me when BP brand changed from capital letters to lower case and from a shield to a 'flower', nothing else changed.

      Its all high class bullshit designed to make ACT sound modern when its still the same party for the well off over 60s.

      • Cinny 1.1.1

        Its all high class bullshit designed to make ACT sound modern when its still the same party for the well off over 60s

        Ain't that the truth Duke.

  2. Robert Guyton 2

    "a huge shot in the arm to the business sector"

    Who, in their right mind, would want to be shot in the arm??

    These coots are crazy!

    • Well I guess they're getting creative with their whiskey , Robert,… in order to keep the dream cloud going , someone might have suggested intravenous instead of oral. It certainly does seem like they've been on the suds for a long , long time anyhows…

  3. Macro 3

    Yeah well we all know – apart actoids – what effect tax cuts have on an economy. Apart from the necessary cuts in essential Govt services like health, education, income support, infrastructure, and not to mention police and defence, the effect of tax cuts on say GDP or wages is effectively Zip or Nardaa

    Here is a graph taken from a recent report on the US economy after one year of Donald's big beautiful xmas present to himself and his mates:

  4. Gosman 4

    Where is your evidence for this claim? –

    "…And it does not work for very clear reasons. Rich people tend to either hoard their money, buy luxury items usually sourced from overseas, go on more overseas holidays, or invest more in real estate, thereby driving up prices and rent expectations."

    Also can you explain to me how you can hoard wealth in such a manner that does not impact the savings rate in the economy?

    • woodart 4.1

      perhaps gosman, YOU should prove that rich people dont use there tax cuts for overseas holidays etc, but instead spread the wealth around and actually prove ,that trickle down works. you are always on here ,calling for others to do the heavy lifting. how about getting off your own arse, and doing some of the work yourself.

      • Gosman 4.1.1

        Perhaps you should learn about the concept of "burden of proof".

        • WILD KATIPO 4.1.1.1

          Try pre 1984 when there was actually money in the community including the working classes pockets ,( y'know,- that time when whole family's didnt have to sleep in cars cos they could afford the rent ? ) and there were STILL plenty of wealthy people in NZ.

          Get off your arse and do some research for your information on a fair tax system yourself , lazybones.

          • Gosman 4.1.1.1.1

            Why isn't even NZ First advocating for a return to the policies we had pre-1984?

            • WILD KATIPO 4.1.1.1.1.1

              Idiot, – both Winston Peters and Jim Anderton consistently spoke out against neo liberalism . Don't be a moron. Learn your history.

              =======================

              … ” We don’t like extremists, – we believe in laws and policy’s that support the mass majority of New Zealanders , and not just a small elite ,… who may have gotten control of the political system and the financial funding of political party’s , … shows that in this campaign ” …

              – Winston Peters.

              23/9/2017.

              Peters said the sell off of New Zealand interests to overseas buyers was the "continuing story of this country's decline since the 14th of July, 1984".

              =======================

              Now what does that sound like to you , fool?

              Like Peters is supporting it?

              Or more like Jeremy Corban's 'for the many , not the few ' ?

              In fact your lucky NZ First isn’t the govt because grabastic sad arses like you would be getting your sorry rear ends kicked all over the place.

              * NZ First is the minor party in the coalition in case your selective observation skills haven’t noticed…

      • WILD KATIPO 4.1.2

        Gosman getting off his arse? Nah. He's too cheeky for that and gets too butthurt whenever his 'rorts for the rich' are challenged. Besides , all you would achieve is appealing for the half arsed opinions of the rump of the extreme far right anyway.

    • mickysavage 4.2

      Personal observance. I am a lawyer.

      • Gosman 4.2.1

        Which opens it up for a huge amount of personal bias to skew the observation from the actual reality.

        What traditional economics states is that the more disposable income people have the more they save. Hence why if you want to boost consumption it pays to target those at the lower ends of the income spectrum versus the top. Conversely giving higher income earners a tax break will likely increase the amount of capital available for investment purposes as a result of increased savings. Now this may not avtually be what the economy needs but the theory is quite sound.

        • mickysavage 4.2.1.1

          But the investment flows are towards economies with the lowest labour costs. There is no benefit to New Zealand except for the fact we can get our flat screen TVs cheaper.

          • Gosman 4.2.1.1.1

            Incorrect. If that was the case then investment would be directed towards countries in Africa where labour costs are much lower now than in say China.

            • mauī 4.2.1.1.1.1

              I think you're forgetting about factors like infrastructure, factories, shipping and security. All of which China has a major advantage in.

            • Incognito 4.2.1.1.1.2

              Hmmm, political stability and, dear I say it, trade agreements perhaps?

            • WILD KATIPO 4.2.1.1.1.3

              ^

              Conveniently forgets about China's Belt and Road investment in Africa…

              • Gosman

                Umm… China Belt and Road investment is basically EVERYWHRE not just in Africa

                • …'' Incorrect. If that was the case then investment would be directed towards countries in Africa where labour costs are much lower now than in say China '' …

                  —————————

                  Your words, not mine , old chum.

                  • Gosman

                    The Belt and Road initiative is not merely directed to areas of the World with low labour costs. That is not it's major driver.

                    • Yes we know the motives but the fact remains ,- you stated investment wasnt 'directed towards countries in Africa where labour costs are much lower '.

                      So now you've doubled back on your own words and in denial that NZ company's for example have shifted their company's to country's of low wages in such places as South East Asia and South America.

                      I worked in security at one such iconic NZ company ( which , btw , – was given a generous helping hand by the govt and the taxpayers of NZ during the 1930’s – 40s’s) where a huge number of the NZ workers there were made redundant in one short year , and, by utilizing the obscenity which is NZ's liberal labour and free market laws , – the ones that remain are on vastly reduced wages.

                      Is this your idea of trade and fair taxation including implementing flat tax rates?

                      Whereby the wealthy can move their holdings offshore , sack most of their workers , seeking lower waged workers overseas and then pay their workers far less than before, – meanwhile having P.A.Y. E workers pay disproportionately more in tax including GST because they haven't the access to trusts, and salary minimization ?

                    • Gosman

                      NZ manufacturing industry and economy seems to be going great at the moment. What is the issue with NZ companies moving some production offshore?

                    • Incognito []

                      What is the issue with NZ companies moving some production offshore?

                      Hmmm, the commute times would be prohibitively long for NZ workers perhaps?

                    • …''NZ manufacturing industry and economy seems to be going great at the moment. What is the issue with NZ companies moving some production offshore?''…

                      ===================

                      Yes , I suppose 'NZ manufacturing and the economy is going great at the moment ( and for the past 35 years ) .

                      FOR THE RICH.

                      But the real problem people seem to be having with your simplisitc and moronic deflections and diversions are several:

                      One is that you absolutely and completely deny what even a 12 year old can see , – if the facts of the destructive effects of your pet ideology on society were presented to them , another is your persistent defense of neo liberalism that the IMF has declared a failure, another is denying bald faced the effects globally of the impoverishment on the middle and working classes in country's of the western world, yet another is the fact that those company's that relocate offshore and seek lower waged country's perpetuate the poverty cycle, still yet another is the poverty wages neo liberalism inflicts by using lobby groups and donations ( bribes ) to pass legislation in the obscenely wealthy's favour.

                      Have you not read a thing I've posted ?

                      Either you are in need of a new set of glasses or you are being deliberately obtuse and willfully in denial.

                      I was trying to be polite and non personal.

                      Screw that. Your not worth the time .

                      Your just a wanker.

                      And I don't like my time being wasted by complete tosspots.

                      Last post to you. Talk to the hand, idiot. Or the IMF.

                    • Gosman

                      NZ has one of the lowest unemployment rates in the World. Offshoring does not seem to be impacting employment.

                    • Stuart Munro.

                      "one of the lowest unemployment rates in the World"

                      Only because the numbers are bullshit – our NEETs are right up there.

                      Had we anything like full employment we'd have been enjoying positive wage pressure for all the time those false circa 5% numbers were circulating – which you know perfectly well.

          • Gosman 4.2.1.1.2

            Your misunderstanding of the benefits of trade is also telling (although unsurprising). The fact that we can get flat screen TV's cheaper (and better quality) from another country IS the point of Trade.

            • WILD KATIPO 4.2.1.1.2.1

              And your misunderstanding of the benefits of a properly run economy (including a fair taxation system ) that produces societal well being for ALL and not just a select few is also telling ( although unsurprising ).

              The fact that we have such run down infrastructure , people sleeping rough and poverty wages along with encouraging foreign sweatshops to provide us those flat screen tv's cheaper is NOT the point of trade.

            • patricia bremner 4.2.1.1.2.2

              We don't need more of anything, we need less and quality over quantity.

              Built in obsolescence and the misuse of plastics has increased wealth for a few while leaving the world cooking and drowning in waste and future sea melt.

              Yet you come here with your mindless "More money for the wealthy the rest will get the trickle down" theories.

              We have it. Ring fenced banking, asset buy ups, consumerism and the associated waste.

              Gossman, wrapping your beliefs in questions for us to solve follows the pattern of "top down politics."

              Here are some questions for you.

              What were you doing while our waste problem bloomed in the last 30 years?

              Why do you keep coming here with your outdated ideas?

              Show us why we should consider your requests for proof, when most of us have experienced the dearth of your so called "Trickle down" and just don't believe your cleverly wrapped rubbish anymore.

        • WILD KATIPO 4.2.1.2

          …'' What traditional economics states is that the more disposable income people have the more they save. Hence why if you want to boost consumption it pays to target those at the lower ends of the income spectrum versus the top '' …

          ===============

          What a load of absolute TOSH.

          What you are talking about is radical neo liberal economic theory. NOT the Keynesian economic system we had post World War two. And that self serving economic theory of Neo Liberalism , Lassez Faire, Hayek Austrian school of economics is but a small part of economic theory.

          Furthermore it was these pernicious ideology's that caused not only the Great Depression and ALL of the ensuing recessions , but most of the impoverishment of not only the working classes but the middle classes as well.

          Driving down wages, union bashing legislation , tax cuts ( rorts) for the rich and so on. Why do you think so many people are in such a shocking state of poverty in NZ today since 1984 ? Wasnt many family's sleeping in cars while BOTH parents have jobs or sleeping rough when I was a kid , mate.

          So much for working people being able to ‘ save’!!!

          ROFL !!!

          The primary obsession with neo liberal economics is the supply and demand curve. They have no inclination at all to admit economics is a far larger field and true economic indicators of a healthy society is when ALL sectors are enjoying a good standard of living . and yes,- even the unemployed. And that means them and their family's NOT sleeping in cars because of poverty of some poor bastard freezing his arse off on a cold park bench or some dirty alleyway.

          Just LOOK at the appalling state of our run down infrastructures nowadays,- when in 1965 we were ranked the SIXTH wealthiest nation on earth per capita and had a world class health and education system. WITHOUT mold growing in the walls of our hospitals or school buildings ROTTING on their foundations.

          And that was when we practiced Keynesianism, NOT neo liberalism. And is why even today the Scandinavians still practice modified Keynesianism and are the wealthiest nations on earth per capita.

          WITH sound infrastructure , WITH high taxes , WITH high wages ,and WITH a solid social welfare system.

          There's your useless , idiotic neo liberalism by contrast for ya , mate. Just for shits and giggles.

          Oh , and BTW ?

          Even the IMF has stated that 'neo liberalism' is a failure.

          Take it up with them.

          • Gosman 4.2.1.2.1

            Ummm… pretty sure Keynes also agrees that cutting taxes for lower income earners boosts consumption.

            • WILD KATIPO 4.2.1.2.1.1

              And we know he definitely DIDN'T believe cutting taxes for the wealthy only and legislating in poverty wages boosted consumption.

              In fact, the exact OPPOSITE.

              In other words, – INCREASING taxes on the wealthy and their assets instead of disproportionately taxing the working and middle classes for some bogus notion of ‘increasing consumption’.

              Lets put this in a way even a child can understand , – if I have two bananas and give you one ,- then take it back,… will you have anything left to eat?

              • Gosman

                Who is arguing that cutting taxes for higher income earners is the best approach to boost consumption? You've created a strawman here.

                • '' You've created a strawman here''

                  Ah deflection. What a wonderful online tool.

                  And obviously you don't understand ratio's. Whereby what Seymour advocates is broken code for ' flat rates meaning that disproportionately the wealthy pay far less in tax than the rest of us through mechanisms such as trusts and income minimization's '.

                  Something to which most on P.A.Y.E or even those on fixed salary's have no access to.

                  • Gosman

                    Except that is not what the theory states at all. You may disagree with the theory but it is certainly not some sort of broken code from David Seymour's perspective.

                    • Stuart Munro.

                      It's not about disagreement Gosman. Tax cuts have been repeatedly proven not to produce the benefits claimed for them. So it's not a theory, it's a deceit. Tax cuts don't and never will improve the prosperity of countries, and the liars who claim they will should be treated with the contempt their lies deserve.

                    • But it IS a broken down code from Seymours predecessors such as Milton Friedman, Friedrich Hayek's Mont Pelerin society , Roger Douglas, Ruth Richardson ( both who were at one time sitting board members of the Mont Pelerin society ).

                      And we KNOW what the theory is code for because we not only have ample evidence in recent history ( the last 35 years of neo liberalism) and its destructive effects on society , – these types have clearly stated what the purpose is already.

                      And to try and deny the motivations and the implications of a 'flat tax rate ' is tantamount to trying to lie to the public, – the same way as Douglas lied to the NZ public about increasing wealth in NZ and providing ' freedom of choice' when it comes to trade unionism.

                      When the only wealth that was increased was in Douglas's pockets and his already obscenely wealthy mates.

                      Meanwhile unions were legislated against , their powerbase diminished, workers were put on individual contracts, lost much of their bargaining power as well as overtime rates and conditions.

                      Then they called it a 'flat rate' for wages.

                      Conversely they called a 'flat tax rate' an even 'playing field' when in fact is was designed to enable the rich to hide their wealth behind trusts and salary minimization's. And let the P.A.Y.E workers shoulder a disproportionate amount of the tax burden.

                      There's no point trying it on anymore , Gosman ,- we've had 35 years of seeing this garbage ideology and its negative and destructive effects in this country.

                      We are all old hands at it now. We KNOW the lies. We KNOW the effects. We have experienced it all before over and over again. So there's really no point at all trying to go in to bat for the 0.4% party that by and large the public have rejected. If there was a point Seymour would be the PM.

                      He's not. He is the leader of the 0.4% party , ACT.

                      And the NZ public majority have rejected them. For EXACTLY the same reasons I have mentioned.

                    • Gosman

                      What specifically is the current government doing that is fundamentally (as opposed to just degree of emphasis) different to the governments of the past 35 years?

                    • Gosman…

                      … '' What specifically is the current government doing that is fundamentally (as opposed to just degree of emphasis) different to the governments of the past 35 years? ''…

                      ===================

                      And that's just the point. Not a lot .

                      Yet the problem with folk like you , Gosman , is that aside from a little tinkering your OK with living under National lite Labour. With a few minor adjustments and consultations with your accountants and business colleagues things can be patched up while the rest of us plebs have to keep on enduring the neo liberal lie.

                      And your whole diversion of using the current coalition govt is a crock as well.

                      You may be willfully blind to the fact that there have been many here on this site that have been critical of the coalition , – which is more than can be said for your myopic support of an ideology ( neo liberalism ) that even the IMF has declared was a failure.

                      And the only real macro alternative taking into account the greed factor of the obscenely wealthy is Keynesianism. Others would like both done away with. At least Keyneisanism makes allowances for the greed and avarice filled while keeping them in check and minimizing the damage they do through regulating the bogus 'free market' tripe.

                    • mikesh

                      Conversely they called a 'flat tax rate' an even 'playing field' when in fact is was designed to enable the rich to hide their wealth behind trusts and salary minimization's. And let the P.A.Y.E workers shoulder a disproportionate amount of the tax burden.

                      Whilst I don't agree with a flat tax rate I feel I must point out that forming trusts would not avoid tax because the trust income would be taxed at the same flat tax rate. Much the same thing applies to salary minimisation. The (non salary) income has to turn up somewhere, where it will also be taxed at the flat rate.

        • mauī 4.2.1.3

          In this context, disposable income drops for the real spenders in the economy – low to middle income earners.

          High income earners with more money available invest in high value assets, like property. It's no coincidence that property values in english speaking countries around the pacific rim have gone through the roof as China's economy has grown massively and that money has spread outwards. A double whammy, further screwing over the middle class in those countries like ours.

        • Craig H 4.2.1.4

          Traditional economics includes the concept of propensity to consume i.e. the poorer someone is, the more of every extra $1 they will spend if their net income increases. Before disposable income is saved, first that person has to actually have disposable income.

        • mikesh 4.2.1.5

          These days extra saving by the wealthy seems to go towards boosting housing and stock market prices, and that seems detrimental to the economy because such avenues are non productive.

    • Macro 4.3

      Here are the results from the US gift to grifters:

      “The initial effect of a demand side is likely to be reflected in increased consumption and the data indicate little growth in consumption in 2018,” the report said. “Much of the tax cut was directed at businesses and higher-income individuals who are less likely to spend. Fiscal stimulus is limited in an economy that is at or near full employment.”

      At the same time, tax receipts from 2018 indicate that corporations got an even bigger break than expected.

      While the Congressional Budget Office had forecast a $94 billion break that still would have generated $243 billion in corporate revenues, the actual total was $205 billion, or 16% lower than projected.

      The effective tax for corporations, or the level they pay after taxes, was 17.2% in the year before the tax breaks took hold and plunged to 8.8% for 2018. Individuals, meanwhile, saw a drop from 9.6% as a percentage of personal income in 2017 to 9.2% last year.

      Bonuses from those companies also didn’t amount to much when averaged across all workers, with the $4.4 billion paid coming to just $28 per employee in the U.S.

      Companies also received incentives to repatriate profits held overseas, and they did so to the tune of $664 billion. While companies bought back about $1 trillion of their own shares, “the evidence does not suggest a surge in investment from abroad in 2018,” the report said.

      https://www.cnbc.com/2019/05/29/trump-tax-cuts-did-little-to-boost-economic-growth-in-2018-study-says.html

      • Gosman 4.3.1

        Yes, that is what you would expect. Less impact on consumption but an increase in savings.

        • Macro 4.3.1.1

          🙄

          So tell me Gosman – how does this increase in wealth by the top 1% of around $US 1T actually improve the conditions of the bottom 99%? When the majority of that stock buy back simply went into bonds, more stock, more property, and super yachts.*

          Meanwhile the US national debt continues to soar, and services for the most vulnerable are being cut to pay for these extravagant gifts to these already overly resourced individuals.

          * Oh that's right – it "trickles down"

    • UncookedSelachimorpha 4.4

      Why are we still pretending 'trickle-down' economics work?

      And the Kansas Tax Experiment – which had disastrous outcomes.

      • Gosman 4.4.1

        Noone is proposing trickle-down economics.

        • WILD KATIPO 4.4.1.1

          But that is what a flat tax rate is all a part of . So yes, indirectly and might I add, deceitfully , indeed they are.

          • Gosman 4.4.1.1.1

            No it isn't. Noone is advocating that a flat tax rate will lead to a trickle-down effect,

            • McFlock 4.4.1.1.1.1

              then what's the point?

              • Gosman

                To allow people to keep more of their income which presumably will lead to increased savings in the economy.

                • McFlock

                  To allow 1/3 people to keep more of their income while 2/3 pay more tax which presumably will lead to increased savings in the economy.

                  FIFY, and so what?

                  • Gosman

                    And that's the policy. No mention of tickle-down at all.

                    • McFlock

                      So it's just a loot then – make the majority pay more so the people on higher incomes pay less.

                      Why do that?

                    • Macro

                      Because the rich never have enough McFlock you should know that!

                    • McFlock

                      I do like that gossie's line of justification is simply that rich people will have more money at the expense of poor people. Refreshingly honest.

                      I mean, it's fucking despicable, but at least it's honestly despicable.

                    • Macro

                      heheh yeah – I've been chuckling about it all day following his reply at 4.3.1.

                      Like Trump he seems to have no conception of how blatantly greedy this whole idea of tax breaks for the rich is.

                      Unbelievable.

                • UncookedSelachimorpha

                  Yeah, seems Gosman is proposing a sort of "one step removed" trickle down. It won't trickle down directly from the rich – instead it will just make things "better" for everyone by improving the economy.

                  Same old Trickle Down nonsense – rich people get the direct benefits, benefits for everyone else are indirect and far less tangible (and in reality – do not exist!)

        • bwaghorn 4.4.1.2

          Yor right about that your average act voter would hate to think they were leaking money to the poor.

  5. You have to wonder what the constituency is for this policy. Massive tax cuts for the wealthy, at the expense of ordinary people and the public services they rely on – does that have any appeal beyond the fraction of 1% that's already voting ACT?

    • mikesh 5.1

      Advocates of a flat tax assume that the rate of such a tax would be lower, but that ain't necessarily so. If the flat tax rate was set at 33% the elites would be no better off. A tax regime that has been suggested by some might be one that combined a flat tax with a UBI. Taken together these two measures would equate to a progressive tax. Gareth Morgan in The Big Kahuna suggested a flat tax of 31% coupled with a UBI of $11,000 a year, while Keith Rankin suggested a flat rate of 35% coupled with a UBI of $200 per week.

      A flat tax seems obviously fair because everyone pays at the same rate. And a UBI is also fair because every body receives it. Hence the two measures taken together must also be fair.

      • UncookedSelachimorpha 5.1.1

        " A flat tax seems obviously fair because everyone pays at the same rate. And a UBI is also fair because every body receives it. Hence the two measures taken together must also be fair. "

        To hell with fair. Progressive tax systems give far better social outcomes.

        And it would only be 'fair' if having wealth did not enable you to generate more wealth – but it does, producing a positive feedback effect.

        • mikesh 5.1.1.1

          Do some arithmatic and you will find that a flat tax combined with a UBI equates to a progressive tax. The fact that both measures are fair seems to prove that a progressive tax is fair.

  6. dv 6

    There was a calculator published by treasury? where you could play around with tax rates to see the effect on tax collection.

    I thnk the link was on the standard.
    I can't find it again.

    Can any one point to it?

    (May be act needs it too.)

  7. Stuart Munro. 7

    It's kind of an inversion of Beowulf's economics. Instead of slaying the dragon, we should add to its hoard, and that will make us all rich. The logic is pretty weak even for a prat like Cmor.

  8. A FLAT TAX RATE !

    Bwhahahahahaaaa !

    Yes Roger , I mean Rimmer , oops ! – I meant Seymour.

    There's still those dinosaurs out there that are still trying this shite on.

    Unbelievable.

  9. SPC 9

    It's the sort of extremist policy, designed to take votes off National,, that ACT resorts to when it (and the public) expect National to lose the next election.

    It's based on the strategy of re-energising the right while National are out of government, but in way that does not cost National votes in the centre.

    It may also represents the more crass culture of social media and the echo of the extremist rhetoric, thus the defence of hate speech as a virtue of free speech. As it's of an out and proud class war on the majority as deplorables to be ruled over by the gated community of Epsom betters.

    • It's the sort of extremist policy, designed to take votes off National,, that ACT resorts to when it (and the public) expect National to lose the next election.

      Ah, thank you. That kind of answers my question up-thread: if National's looking screwed, ACT can nick their more libertarian supporters via policies like these.

    • Stuart Munro. 9.2

      I think, like a lot of ACT noise, the intention is to take up the media space that should be discussing making tax more progressive. It is the media version of filibustering.

  10. observer 10

    Once a year ACT holds a conference, and gets its moment in the media spotlight. The amazing thing is that anybody pays any attention.

    Last year's big idea from the conference? The "Smaller Government Bill":

    https://www.newsroom.co.nz/2018/08/12/189318/david-seymour-changes-course

    For those who have forgotten (probably all of us) this was to be Seymour's private member's bill, and it would do BIG things, like abolishing Maori seats, cutting Parliament to 100 … just like his promise yesterday on another private member's bill protecting our sacred freedoms (what a hero!).

    He got headlines for a day. And nobody has heard of it since.

    Why didn't ACT propose a 0% tax? Now that would have been a headline. People could have got terribly worked up and … nothing would happen, ever.

    ACT's best friends are people taking this National MP for Epsom seriously. Why bother? He doesn't even vote in their caucus.

    • Gosman 10.1

      Yet here you are expending your time and effort to contruct a number of paragraphs about him. If he and Act really didn't matter why did you bother?

      • observer 10.1.1

        Yeah, that primary school debating point belongs with "use the off switch". Tired and trite.

        The media =/= me.

        • Gosman 10.1.1.1

          Why did you bother?

          • lprent 10.1.1.1.1

            Hard to see why you bother yourself..

            These dimwits have about as much chance of generating any effective political change as a primate gibbering in a zoo does. And you act just like that primate whenever you support them.

            As far as I can see they know fuckall about any real business except that of parting suckers from their cash – something that they have been doing to fools like Gibbs for many years.

            They're the economic equivalents of grifters.. Trying to run a long-con and hoping that some cheap assets fall off into their hands (again).

            As far as I can see the National party support them largely because it provides a place for a particular type of arsehole to go to, so they don't cause problems inside National.

      • WILD KATIPO 10.1.2

        At 0.4% ACT doesn't matter. At least to the general public.

        They may matter to the obscenely rich and the National party as a way to win a seat by putting a useless Nat candidate in Epsom, but to no-one else. And in case you haven't noticed , National isn't the govt anymore and wont be for a very , very long , long time. There's a reason for that .

        You may have also noticed that ACT's share of the vote was cannibalized by National when National was in power , – further illustrating the unpopularity of Seymour and ACT.

        And this forum is a good way of expending time and effort to further discredit a party that was based on lies and ensure they eventually cease to exist.

  11. Incognito 11

    They should have changed their name to Silly ACT or SACT.

  12. Reality 12

    Guess they are serious, but Richard Prebble thinks David Seymour should be Deputy Prime Minister! What a scary, ridiculous idea.

  13. Sacha 13

    Flaccid tax. #fify

  14. Sabine 14

    Would it be impolite to ask any of the journalists and pontificators why on earth they push the Hologram and his ideas on us, when literally at 0.4 % he has less standing that say the Gareth Morgan Welfare Party TOP which actually got more votes than then Holograms Welfare Party?

    Seriously, at 0.4 % why does anyone behave as if a. he has a viable party, and b. should be in parliament, or c. on Radio/Tv/Nesw/Standard.

    Would someone please ask the Maori Party as to what kind of tax cuts they would like to see enacted?

    Cause that flat tax is is a "TAX CUT" for the well todo, and i think we can all agree that they generally don't piss down err trickle or tinkle any of their wealth to us undeserving peasants.

    • A 14.1

      Indeed.

      It goes without saying that he doesn't have a hope in hell of getting either of these laws through, so clearly a publicity stunt.

    • Sacha 14.2

      I'd love to hear media coverage of what the McGiilicuddys or the Socialist League make of carbon taxes. Not a peep. Yet if a libertarian sneezes ..

  15. nukefacts 15

    The article you quote is simply ridiculous. Almost every single economist on earth would tell you that supply side economics and the Laffer Curve just don't work. Have a read of this:

    https://newrepublic.com/article/145331/art-laffer-intellectual-rot-republican-party

    Anmd how about this for the actual results of these insane right wing nutty policies:

    https://slate.com/business/2016/04/kansas-tax-cuts-are-a-mistake-and-everyone-agrees.html

  16. Jimmy 16

    I think they need to change the tax rate bands.

    Any income over $48k we pay 30% on it. Any anything over $70k is 33%.

    These bands were brought in years ago when $70k was considered a very high income.

    something like:

    0-14k say 7.5%

    14k-48k say 14%

    48k-70k say 27%

    70k-125k say 30%

    125k-200k say 33%

    200k+ say 38%

    • Yes ,… and it hasn't gone unnoticed that over the years company tax has gone down. Which is more then we can say for GST on foods for those on low P.A.Y.E fixed incomes. Or Rent , or basic commodities such as gasoline, power , -or any other item you would care to mention.

      Company tax.

      Interesting. Like asset trusts, salary minimization , and the like.

      As opposed to poverty wages, disproportionate tax burdens , family's in poverty .

      Eh.

    • Sabine 16.2

      salaries up until 48 k should be tax free. Why? Because it costs half of that just to rent a dingy flat and the other half of that income is needed to pay for food – humans must eat, and gasoline to go to work – cause no work no income no taxes.

      48 – 90 k – tax rate at 33%

      90- 200k 40% and above 200k – 1 million 45% , 1 million + 50% and so forth.

      fwiw, 70.000 anual income is still considered a high income for over half of the working population.

      And remove any loopholes that would allow someone to take a 'loss' (such as an empty property that can't be rented as the lease demands are way to high) and write it off against income.

      But non of that is happening, as neither our dear No mates Party overlords, nor the kinder and gentler and more wellbeing focused overlords at hte Labour party would ever raise the taxes they themselves have to pay on their income, their property holdings, their 'farm' investments, and their business ventures. Can't have that. Taxes are for working stiffs, or as Morgan Gareth once called them…..the 'payee slaves'.

      Also please lets abolish GST on food, electricity, water, medical care etc – essentially anything that is required to stay alive physically in our society. But levy a GST on things like gasguzzlers, maseratis, expensive bottles of booze and parfume and so forth.

      • WILD KATIPO 16.2.1

        …'' Also please lets abolish GST on food, electricity, water, medical care etc – essentially anything that is required to stay alive physically in our society. But levy a GST on things like gasguzzlers, maseratis, expensive bottles of booze and parfume and so forth '' …

        =====================

        Hear , hear !!!

    • Dukeofurl 16.3

      33% as the top rate is considered 'very low' by international standards.

      Plus we dont have payroll taxes like many others but thats paid by employer, but still tax income.

  17. Peter Christchurch NZ 17

    There is one (and only one) good thing about a flat tax: makes it much harder (and less attractive) to engage in tax avoidance. Also would be the death knell for a whole lot of accountants.

    A flat tax with a capital gains tax might not be a bad thing though. This is obscene:

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12239657

    For those without access to the NZH, the article basically details a near $2.5M tax free profit in less than 6 years on a property.

    • … '' Also would be a death knell for a lot of accountants ''…

      Yes that sprang to mind.

      All those handsomely paid accountants charging moon beams for ensuring the obscenely rich can hide their personal income in trusts and salary minimization. And thus only get to pay the bare minimum in tax – moreso if a flat tax rate was brought in.

    • Craig H 17.2

      AI is likely to reduce accounting work in the next 20 years anyway.

  18. UncookedSelachimorpha 18

    Trickledown Economics – Where the rich piss on you and we tell you it's raining!

    The Juice Media

    • They think we all came down in the last shower.

      • Pat 18.1.1

        and yet 'we' continue to oppose tax increases….perhaps 'we' did indeed come down in the last shower

        • WILD KATIPO 18.1.1.1

          Yes, indeed, – or perhaps the media has had 35 years of brainwashing enough people who are now landlords at the expense of all the rest of us we have given up hope…

          Anyhow's, that vid from UNCOOKEDSELACHIMORPHA was just too damn good not to have a visual- so here we go :

          Honest Government Ad | Trickledown Economics

          • UncookedSelachimorpha 18.1.1.1.1

            Thanks WK – sometimes my links do that and not others – I must be doing things differently. What is the secret?

            • WILD KATIPO 18.1.1.1.1.1

              I'm having a ton of probs cos I use Google, my spellchecker doesn't work , and the copy and paste thingy is up the Buhai.

              I have to copy the 'current URL' thing directly over the you tube clip by right clicking, then come back here and hold down Ctrl and 'c' at the same time, left click on one of the two paste icons , then hopefully it'll paste,- and I have to do it twice- once for the URL gooblygook and once again for the title- putting the title above the URL thing.

              Its a bloody pain in the arse and often I get multiple copies if it fails and waste another minute or so deleting them all. I've said this recently on this site and its seems this is the way its going to be. Which is certainly not user friendly to computer thickos like me.

              • greywarshark

                WildKatipo

                If you have a Youtube clip open, and you go up to the link and click on it with the right side of your mouse and press select all, then click on it again with the right side and press copy then you have got it. Bring the cursor down and paste it where you want.

                If you press the right side of mouse and it brings up the Paste box and then tells you it can't do it, just clear that by pressing the cross.

                Then check your cursor is where you want the link and go to keyboard and press Control CTRL button at bottom with left hand and press V at the same time with right.

                • Brilliant ! , – and thank you for those clear instructions !

                  🙂

                  I shall copy them down right away for reference until it becomes rote.

                  • greywarshark

                    Glad to help you WK. I felt your pain, which echoes mine quite often felt about such matters.

  19. Observer Tokoroa 19

    Time Wasting

    Gosmann openly states and clearly indicates that the wealthy are wealthy and should be even more wealthy.

    He like, the Act Party, detests the lowly paid Poor, and blames them for every mishap and wrong doing that occurs day to day in Aotearoa.

    He gets so many jollies counting up the numbers of decent people sleeping in wealthy Landlord Slums and motor vehicles. For Gosman is a slum Lover – carrying heavy hatred for women and children who suffer – while he gets more and more money from the wealthy. Plus bribes from Billy English – at election time.

    Like all Trolls he is a Human Failure… he never ever suggests that The Poor should be raised up. He is a Troll. He always will be.

    One day the Poor who do all the work in this place – and worlwide – will see the wealthy writhe in agony for what they have done to human beings.

    • … '' One day the Poor who do all the work in this place – and worldwide – will see the wealthy writhe in agony for what they have done to human beings '' …

      Ooooo shit !- that deserves a song . From Ozzie.

      Your Thoughts Are Compromising
      Self-Centered, Patronizing
      Your Image Supersedes Your Soul

      You Find Me Mystifying
      Subhuman, So Annoying
      You Can't Have Me Under Control

      You Think You Live Forever
      You Don't Find That Profound
      You Won't Think You're So Clever
      When You Hear Thunder Underground
      All Right Now

      Your Morbid Fear Of Losing
      Destroys The Lives You're Using
      You Only Have One Point Of View
      The Stigma Of Delusion
      Confirms Your Self Illusion
      And After All This Could Be You

      You Think You Live Forever
      You Don't Find That Profound
      You Won't Think You're So Clever
      When You Hear Thunder Underground
      Here We Go Now

      Could It Be That I Have Found My Mind
      Or Have I Gone Insane?
      Roller Coaster Of The Madness
      And There's Only Me To Blame
      The Ever Faithful Hand Of Doom
      Will Take The Pain Away
      I'll Never Know The Answer To It All
      'Til My Dying Day

      Your Bullshit Culture Licking
      Can't Stop The Deathwatch Ticking
      You're Only Mortal After All
      Your Appetite For Power
      Subvert Your Every Hour
      But Every Time The Mighty Fall

      You Think You Live Forever
      You Don't Find That Profound
      You Won't Think You're So Clever
      When You Hear Thunder Underground
      Here We Go Now

      Thunder Underground – YouTube

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2YFirVguEk&list…m-OTDShhwWAM…

    • Jimmy 19.2

      Gosman is not Trolling on here, he is actually providing balance and reducing the echo chamber that blogs can be. I also see that all the vile bile that spews from some on here from people like OT is just simply crap.

      "For Gosman is a slum Lover – carrying heavy hatred for women and children who suffer"

      As with OT's quote above, it is the crap that really is the true trolling…. Hmmmm OT put the joint down and offer some REAL solutions instead of crapping on anyone who does not share the same view as you.

      • Stuart Munro. 19.2.1

        Blah – Gosman is a disingenuous far-right ninny – and you're no better.

      • WILD KATIPO 19.2.2

        I rarely meet anybody who seriously believes that what Gosman and his ilk spout is called 'balance'.

        Perhaps that's why ACT is the 0.4% party.

        • Stuart Munro. 19.2.2.1

          They get air time out of all proportion however. Gosman's presence here is chiefly intended to consume Left bandwidth.

      • Observer Tokoroa 19.2.3

        Hi Jimmy

        Are you telling me that you and Gosman are getting Women and Children out of Cars this Winter ?

        You are creeps Jimmy. And you know it. You don't give a damn about the Poor.

        Why are you so angry with people who dislike your rotten wealthy horrible ways ?

  20. AB 20

    The purpose of a flat tax is to destroy the capability of government to do anything much other than run a police force that defends the property rights of the well-off. And in the modern world that means running a mass surveillance system too. All other human interactions would be mediated through the market with predictable results of soaring inequity, death, disease and violence. ACT, the self-styled party of liberty, are basically tin-pot fascists.

  21. greywarshark 22

    We will need all the taxes that should be paid from the top earners as we get one disaster and destruction after another. We have already suffered having a low wage structure put upon us by the RW taking away the realiasable dream of increasing living standards. No reason why we couldn't have gone on working and adapting and keeping producing for ourselves, but no. Now we are poor in this country floating on the Impossible Dream, a flash cruise liner where nothing works for long.

    Here is a commemorative story of the Inangahua earthquakes and some people still alive connected with them. When they got to Nelson and refuge there was a huge welcome and support for them. But how can that be maintained now, as we will be enveloped in problems from CC and man-made literally, as in mothers having to give birth in conditions of a disadvantaged region, sinking to depression standards.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/392217/murchison-1929-earthquake-survivors-and-descendants-remember

  22. Here's an interesting documentary from Bryan Bruce …

    Mind The Gap

    • And I've got to say , the poverty of the single mother with three children ( one having epilepsy ) having to live in tents is a complete and utter OUTRAGE !

      And here we've got fools like Gosman arguing the point and trying to justify the poverty in this country for his precious neo liberalism and the obscenely wealthy.

  23. Does anyone remember this ?

    Or even want to among the far right wing?

    Because along with Roger Douglas's ' flat wage and flat tax' bullshit , – THIS was the penultimate finale with Ruth Richardson's Employment Contracts Act 1991 . And though its been tinkered around with , – along with much other neo liberal entrenched attitudes and legislation, NOTHING has really changed in NZ since 35 years ago. In fact , – its gotten steadily WORSE.

    Defeat the Bill! The struggle against the Employment Contracts Bill, 1991

    https://iso.org.nz/2016/02/23/defeat-the-bill-the-struggle-against-the-employment-contracts-bill-1991/

    • Bewildered 24.1

      Lange never should have stopped for that cup of tea, we would be better off now if Douglas has been allowed to carry on

      • Stuart Munro. 24.1.1

        Douglas is a thieving cunt who should have been executed. Lange was a leader manqué who knew very well he should have resigned for his failure to do so.

        [lprent: Banned for a month. It isn’t acceptable to offer violence to anyone. ]

        • higherstandard 24.1.1.1

          Nice to know some things at The Standard never change.

          • WILD KATIPO 24.1.1.1.1

            Please explain?

          • Stuart Munro. 24.1.1.1.2

            Well the job here is not to flatter the lies of the crooks and loons who, through deceit and thus with no mandate whatsoever, imposed neoliberal reforms on a trusting NZ electorate, reforms as bad or worse as what might have been imagined by some inbred medieval tyrant.

            • higherstandard 24.1.1.1.2.1

              😆 thank you for that Alonso Quixano

              • Stuart Munro.

                His name lives in honour while yours lives in infamy.

              • Its no bloody joke, arsehole , – peoples children have died because of this ideology and its resultant poverty in derelict, cold , damp , moldy state houses of preventable third world illnesses that never existed in such numbers prior to Douglas's bullshit 'reforms'.

                And that's from the medical reports by professional people who are obviously far more clued up than you are on the subject.

                But off course, class act arsewipes such as yourselves never take that into consideration or give it a seconds thought , do you.

                Wanker.

                • higherstandard

                  laughStuart as Alonso Quixano and wild Katipo as Rocinante what a pair.

                  • Mhmmm,… yeah.

                    Your a moron.

                    Last post to you as well , tosspot.

                    • higherstandard

                      'Your a moron.'

                      Comedy gold. 😆

                    • Stuart Munro.

                      Cheers. Park Geun Hye got 25 years for much less than Douglas did. All it takes is a populace wised up to the jive talk – may that come soon.

                  • Stuart Munro.

                    So you're here to troll – qu'elle surprise.

                    Laugh at the families rendered homeless by the lies of your fellow travellers.

                    Laugh at our world beating suicide rates and declining prosperity.

                    Laugh that you may not cry at the wasteland that was once God's own country, and Popper's model for the Open Society, now only slightly better than the US under Trump.

                    You despicable piece of shit – who knew NZ housed so many wretched vermin – until Douglas pulled them out from under their rocks and set them to destroying our commonwealth.

                    • higherstandard

                      …for my desire has been no other than to deliver over to the detestation of mankind the false and foolish tales of the books of chivalry, which, thanks to that of my true Don Quixote, are even now tottering, and doubtless doomed to fall for ever. Farewell."

                    • Stuart Munro.

                      To hell with you and all your thieving ilk – fuck off and crow your prattle to the meeping morons of kiwiblog that are your peers.

                    • Good on ya mate. I'd say he /she is a young Nat around 19 years old and a first year Varsity political student whose being sheltered by Mommy and Daddy's wallet and will never get to experience poverty.

                      The prick should spend a couple of years in Bangladesh , – airdropped in without Mommy's and Daddy's wallet and only the clothes they have on their backs ,- or even in South Auckland to take the smirk right off their face.

                      That'd sort their bullshit attitudes out smartly.

                      Then again , … arseholes will always be with us and we should expect that. Far better to get the last laugh and kick their shit political hero’s out of government and keep them there.

            • WILD KATIPO 24.1.1.1.2.2

              Indeed.

              In fact , their collective contempt for democracy and sheer arrogance was demonstrated graphically during both the 4th Labour term in office and Douglas's 'reforms' and later on by the Bolger govt's Ruth Richardson – whereby masses of people who wouldn't ordinarily have done so took to the streets in mass protests ,- once over asset sales and again against the Employment Contracts Act.

              And just because they were the govt and were voted in, NEVER meant they had a mandate to go against popular opinion regarding the above two examples.

              And it is well known the New Zealanders at the time voted National to get rid of Douglas and his neo liberal cabal. And we now know all too well the sly, shithouse rat tactics of the Bolger govt in presenting themselves as a return to our former way of life.

              Instead they were nothing more than a Trojan horse to complete the job of Douglas and the pilfering of NZ.

        • WILD KATIPO 24.1.1.2

          Yes, and if Douglas was allowed to go further his privatization would have not only included selling off our SOE's but the people of NZ as workslaves to foreign corporate's.

          Oh wait….

          Seriously where oh where do these insane head down a hole far right wingers crawl out from under ???

          A sewer pipe from a disused , rotten and abandoned school building? The mind boggles. You can present glaring evidence of the colossal failure that is neo liberalism til your blue in the face and STILL they will persist in denying what even the IMF's report states about that ideology being a failure.

          Too busy feathering their nests at the expense of all the rest of us to bother with the facts, I suppose.

          They remind me of the gluttonous, thieving Cuckoo's that take over other bird species nests, – act as impostors, kick out the original brood , get fed and grow fat on other birds hard work then once they have grown and used up that resource , repeat the process and wreck and destroy another nest.

  24. SPC 25

    David Seymour (the government spends $250,000 per person on education)

    1. age 2 to 18 an account with 192,000 placed in it, plus $30,000 for tertiary education (222,000), some $50,000 via scholarships (242,000)

    2. But if people choose state funded schools they do not get to use the money.

    3. Thus it is a subsidy for parents who already send their children to private schools – an extra cost on the existing spending on state funded schools.

    4. The $30,000-50,000 for tertiary spending is presumably a subsidy on those getting their education offshore, or for new private universities (including on-line).

  25. JustMe 27

    I get the impression in regards to David Seymour that he so loves being the centre of attention that he regularly seeks of any opportunity to hear or see his name mentioned in the News.

    It's as bad as Simon Bridges attention seeking antics. Both Bridges and Seymour seems to want to say "Look at Moi(Bridges). Aren't Oi Fauntastic?" Seymour is "LOOK AT ME. Aren't I the Village Idiot(when all things considered)?"

    Whenever there is a National MP or even David Seymour on the telly I turn the sound off. I just cannot be bothered listening to them.

    Their usefulness in the political theatre has now well passed their Used By Date. They are now only there as a gross waste of NZ taxpayers money.

    I wish both would do the admirable thing and leave before they make themselves look more stupid than ever.

    We live in hope.

    • Yes , but they cant do that because all the obscenely wealthy in this country such as those that populate the NZ Initiative ( formerly the Business Roundtable ) and other obscenely wealthy groups will have no advocates in parliament to lobby and to take their donations too,… and no one to advocate for their bogus financial and recommendations reports either…

      Let alone the smug sense of satisfaction that National and ACT gain by passing laws on the above’s behest to make the lot of the poor and working poor's lives even harder while they draw a handsome tax – paid – for salary , and purchase investment assets to set themselves up for a comfortable retirement.

      • New view 27.1.1

        Wk. I’ve tried to follow your threads but there are too many. I agree with some of what you say but there is a lot of unsubstantiated bollocks as well. Your previous comment is testimony to that. I get that you despise any politics from the right and was following the battle of wits between you and Gosman. I noticed you abuse him but he rarely abuses you. You are obviously an intelligent person so would love to hear a more balanced political discussion from you. Surely all 40+%of NZERS who voted for National can’t be greedy wealthy tax dodging arseholes or have I got that wrong. Are we just blindly stupid.

        • McFlock 27.1.1.1

          Actually, only 35% of registered voters voted for national.

          20% don't turn out.

          Of those 35%, some will be rich and selfish, others will just be varying degrees of plain wrong. Although a few might have an interesting point of view.

        • WILD KATIPO 27.1.1.2

          Yes indeed there are too many threads from me- usually in answer to Gosmans diversionary troll tactics. And the reason why I finally became 'abusive' was because I'd finally had enough of his childish deflections and pointed leading questions.

          I should have quit at the point of the majority of my posts which were, in fact , conducted politely and with candour. Yet by the time higherstandard ( which is a complete misnomer and should be called lowerstandard ) came along mocking and abusing what is and should be for everyone a serious matter of children dying because of the shoddy state of NZ's state housing stock , entrenched poverty wages and the rest – I'd completely had a fair gutsful of idiots.

          You will notice I kid around quite a bit on this website (much to IPrents chagrin I should imagine ) and am generally of good humour.

          However, when serious matters arise and people should be taking things dead seriously I truck no idiots who laugh at others serious misfortunes – such as preventable childhood deaths , – ESPECIALLY when caused by irresponsible self justifying idiots.

          EVEN MORE SO when orchestrated by politicians with ulterior motives for self enrichment at the expense of the poorer members of society and who display a complete disregard for the safety of others in the pursuit of their and their colleagues enrichment . For this group THERE ARE NO EXCUSES because they not only are paid in salary's by the tax payer but have at their disposal departments that can do the legwork and report back realistically as to just where the hardship is occurring in society.

          In the 9 year tenure of John Keys govt they obviously didn't rate preventable third world type childhood deaths particularly highly , – nor if family's lived on the streets in cars in NZ.

          I , and hundreds of thousands of others , however , do.

          They had everything at their disposal to reverse the situation but chose not to. Instead they had Paula Bennett running around putting poor family's in motels and knowingly putting those family's in a debt crisis that they could never be free from. And only that after the media started making loud noises about it . And all this because of Nationals Finance Minister Bill English's neo liberal agenda who was hell bent on selling off / privatizing state housing . And that's just one issue among dozens with that past govt and probably one reason people had had enough of them.

          I'm sure I and many others could fill a library as to why so many of us held National , ACT , the MAORI party and all the other hangers on in total contempt and turfed them out as a nation. Simply put, we'd had enough of the bullshit. Their bullshit.

          I'm sorry if I upset your sensibility's by calling someone a wanker or an arsehole or even a tosspot ,… however if someone is acting like one, well, as they say … if the cap fits? – wear it.

          As for your comprehension of what I was posting ,… that is completely subjective to the reader, and, more importantly ,- objections of the kind you make usually only comes from someone who has a beef with someone's else's opinion. Its a form of derailing and trolling. Teenagers do it on many sites as an attempt at being sarcastic and putting down others.

          I notice , for example , …that Stuart Munro didn't seem to suffer from the same inability to make sense of exactly what I have been saying.

          So the question I now put to you ,… are you deliberately trying to derail this thread and attack the messengers , or do you genuinely have problems in comprehension and sustained cognitive philosophical and political debate in all its permutations?

          If its the latter , I genuinely apologize for being too verbose,… if its the former,.. find the nearest lake and go jump into it.

          • WILD KATIPO 27.1.1.2.1

            Oh ,.. and BTW ?… I had to sit my school certificate 3 times ( the final time I gave up half way through thinking it was a waste of time ) and the highest I ever got in one particular subject concerning the three 'R's was 29% out of 100. I just never had time for mathematical concepts apart from the basics in order to calculate, subtract , measure and so forth.

            It bored the arse off me. And seemed like some math egghead was bored one day , decide to get rich and create some newfangled formulas he could market and take the patent out for. I think it was calculus or some bloody stupid thing.

            Hence why I became a labourer and opted for semi skilled body jobs for the most part after high school.

            However, at age nine when they did the tests I had a reading ability of a 16 year old. Along with Donald Duck comics I would habitually sit down with my fathers two sets of encyclopedias , take a book and read whatever I came upon, particularly history , politics and the animal kingdom. That's what we did in the old days before computers when living out thar in the bush.

            • Stuart Munro. 27.1.1.2.1.1

              I used to take a double armload of books to sea back in the day – doubt I'd ever have read most of European literature if I'd been ashore. It made me respectable in Asia – teachers are supposed to know that stuff – a lot don’t.

              • I'm thinking of doing a TESOL or ESOL course at age 55, feel a little bit intimidated by the requirements and the culture shock , … but its an old dream of mine ,… tired of manual or security type work and empty soulless material pursuit's ,… I should have been a librarian serving old age pensioners or young mum's with small children… something peaceful , interactive and beneficial to folks…

                Still workin up the courage and motivation,.. I’d love to work among the Australian Aboriginal kids in the far flung places if they ever wanted a hand for example , – hell I was brought up in the bush and rough frontiers type places is where I feel most at home.

                My 22 year old son reckons its a cool idea and I should just go for it.

                Always been a square peg tryin' to fit in a round hole…

                Either that or I should've been a monk… 🙂

          • Newview 27.1.1.2.2

            I’m just wondering why you write your comments like (in my view) a self opinionated bore who considers his opinions to be more valid than those with an opposing view. You have to agree that right wing Governments have spent a lot of time in power over the years. Why would that be. It happens because the left thinking Governments at that time have either been inadequate,unpopular or damaging to the economy. National governments go in and out of power for similar reasons like this last one. The personal attacks you make on right wing politicians is fair enough but not balanced as this present Government has shown to have its share of MPs and ministers that don’t deserve to be there. You don’t seem to poke a stick at them with the same vigour. There isn’t a political party in this country that believe there policies are detrimental to the good of those living here. They may not be correct in our view but it’s their opinion. Just like you let us know loud and clear what yours is. This Government has yet to face economic adversity in the form of a natural event or global economic downturn. Let’s wait a little longer before we judge them because having a great social conscience isn’t enough. You have to do the business as well.

  26. Ian 28

    Ha Ha . At .4 % why would you turkeys be so worried about David Seymour and his rising profile .Joining the dots it probably has something to do with his stance on firearms ownership and freedom of speech . He is mining NZ first ,Top and the Nats and good on him. He will probably start mining labours tribal voters with a blue collar before you can say Flattax.

    • observer 28.1

      Which is exactly what people said a year ago when he promised his private member's bill to abolish Maori seats and cut Parliament to 100 MPs.

      It's Easy Pickings 101 to go "mining" for votes with policies targeting those two groups (Maori and politicians). Been done for decades, oldest talkback fodder in the land. Poll boost guaranteed.

      And yet he still couldn't manage it, even with such tried and tested targets. Why?

      Because he's David Seymour.

  27. millsy 29

    A flat tax is only possible with huge cuts to government services, and social welfare benefits. You cannot get around it. Look at the countries that have a flat tax. Lativa, that cuts pensions in half if GDP slows by half a percentage point. Or Georgia, where the government privatised its entire health system, lock, stock and barrel. If ACT gets this over the line, the poor, sick and elderly will be the first to pay for it. Hospitals and schools will be closed, the disabled will get their benefits cut, and social housing tenants will be thrown on the streets. I gaurantee it.

  28. KJT 30

    Shows how popular the Neo-liberal " reforms" really were. The only party that openly champions that right wing nonsense, gets only 0.4% of the lunatic fringe, including the parasites of Epsom, voting for them.

  29. peterlepaysan 31

    This "branding" exercise did not come cheap.

    Who the hell is funding this nonsense?

    A (very well funded) party in desperate need of a coalition partner in a MMP electorate.

    This is Epsom in drag, yes I am sure they would pitch to the LGBT sector as well.

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