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Insulting

Written By: - Date published: 4:58 pm, October 1st, 2008 - 136 comments
Categories: crime, dpf - Tags:

David Farrar really is a disgusting person at times. He writes that we shouldn’t look at overall crime rates (although he made a big fuss when the overall recorded crime rate went up because of changes in recording practice in 2006). Instead we should just look at violent crime, after all “having 1,000 less [sic] cannabis crimes and 500 more rapes is a net decrease in crime, but would be a worrying trend”. He then goes on to act all shocked over the recorded violent crime stats. First, he’s trying to make you think there are more rapes (in fact, the number is down and he’s hardly one to fret about rape when he’s good mates with a pornographer). Secondly, this professional statistician is deliberately trying to mislead you regarding the change in the crime stats. He knows that the explanation from the professionals is reporting of domestic crime is up but he hopes you don’t.

Crime is down because poverty and the conditions that breed crime have been reduced. At the same time, reporting of crimes is up. Thefts, car thefts, and burglaries (together, the largest group of crimes) have halved in the last ten years. Homicides are down. In fact, all classes of crime are down except two. Recorded violent crime is up because reporting is up. Recorded property damage offences have climbed in the last three years thanks to the moral panic over tagging. But those rises are attributed (not by me, by the Police) to higher reporting.

Farrar needs to misrepresent the statistics to create the impression of a wave of crime where there is none. It’s all part of National’s ‘New Zealand sucks’ campaign. It disrespects his readers and the victims of crime. Disgusting.

[crime stats]

136 comments on “Insulting”

  1. randal 1

    farrar is a windbag and a fool with oversize dewlaps but we have to put up with him because we live in a democracy. anywhere else and he would be laughed out of town!

  2. To be fair to david his audience is really only the MSM and his retarded chimp commenters so it’s not like he can expect to be caught out…

  3. Phil 3

    Anywhere else and you would have been sent to a re-education camp

  4. Hamish 4

    That is the worst article I have ever seen.

    I’m not going to comment at this time on his “apparent” mis-use of crime statistics because i’m not going to pretend that I know anything about it. But personally attacking Farrar by calling him disgusting just makes you look like a prick.

    And how is the fact that he is friends with a pornographer even relevant to his mis-use of crime statistics? Never a dull moment for the standard when it can use cheap shots at it’s opposition.

    Your link to the stats doesn’t work as well. So basically you’ve made a variety of claims but not backed them up with any evidence.

    [try here. It’s the Stats table builder, you can find the number of offences down to a hundred-odd sub-catagories. SP]

  5. higherstandard 5

    Evidence Hamish damn you eyes Sir !

    Don’t you know that any stats that reflect poorly on the present government are lies.

    The real question is where was John Key when all those thefts and car conversions were going on !

  6. gobsmacked 6

    SP, why do you keep doing this?

    Yet again, you make a valid argument about the facts and figures, and then you chuck a totally gratuitous self-destruct line in there along with it. A gift to those who don’t want to debate the issue. If they then seize upon your stupid comment, that’s nobody’s fault but yours. And another opportunity goes begging.

    Try this in future: write the post, step away from it, read it again, and then ask yourself what you want people to discuss. Anything that distracts from the issue: delete. And if you can’t hear the alarm bells, ask someone who can.

  7. gobs. the lines are there on purpose and with a mind to the consequences. And they’re not just rhetoric. I mean every word

  8. Dewlaps. LOL. I actually had to google that one.
    Being a tulip I didn’t know the man so I looked him up and he has them too.LLOL

  9. Hamish 9

    Got them working now. Thanks!

  10. Pete 10

    in fact, the number is down and he’s hardly one to fret about rape when he’s good mates with a pornographer).

    I love this line from a person that obviously supports a party that legislated to legalise prostitution. Afterall, pornography is just videotaped prostitution for the mass market.

    Steve you’ll next be espousing a Clintonesque line like “I’ve watched pornography once but I didn’t touch myself”

  11. HS. don’t be a dick, you’re better than this. Read the stats, read the Police analysis. It’s not me who’s lying, I’m just relaying the stats and telling you what the experts say.

  12. Pete. Prostitution happened anyway, so the sensible question is ‘how can we make the best of an undesirable situation?’ decriminalising prostitution was the best way to help minimise the dangers to prostitutes. I support that, doesn’t mean I think prostitution is a good thing. You need to start thinking in terms other than black and white.

  13. HS,

    Probably buying and selling railway shares and lying about it while he was making a fast buck on his own shares and using his political position to help out mates. Ooh oops, who were caught insider trading and had to buy themselves out of the crapper with 20 million.

    It’s called white collar crime. The difference with rich white men committing “white collar” crime and burglary is that the burglar goes to jail when caught and when you’re rich you get elected prime minister by idjiets like you so you can bamboozle some more.

    [let’s not get personal in our criticisms. That goes for me too. Sorry for before HS. SP]

  14. Pete 14

    Steve I’m all shades of grey and usually a little green on a Sunday morning 😉

    But I’d like to know how you link being a pornographer with being a rapist? Moreover how you link having a pornographer friend makes a person any less able to find rape repugnant?

    Or were you just attempting a nice disgusting smear?

    [being friends with a pornographer shows a disrespectful attitude to women at least. Many feminists argue porn promotes rape – so associating with someone like that while writing beat up stories abotu rape is pretty awful in my books. Of course, that’s just one element of Farrar’s misogyny and I have a problem with misogynists trying to make political capital off rape. SP]

  15. spot 15

    I’m rubbish on stats, so I’ll ask the “idiots guide” question.

    How do the reported/recorded crime stats (and any increase) stack up against the crime which is actually occuring as a whole? Eg, how do you distinguish between the capturing of the data (increase) and any actual lift in “real world” crime activity.

    Does that question make sense, probably not – but strikes me that assessement against these sorts of stats must be a bl**dy nightmare unless you have a rock solid baseline.

  16. Without disrespecting your request for decent debate what is personal about my response Steve. Ah, the “idjiet”, I get it.

    HS, Is pretty personal too Steve.

    “Birds of a feather” “I hope they don’t procreate”. Pretty insulting.
    And he may not agree with my ideas about 911 but his constant dogwistling about paranoia is and hinting at conspiracies is also pretty nasty and stigmatising.

  17. sean 17

    Unless you have hardcore proof, then violent crime has increased – harping on about someone who claims to be an expert saying that they know it all and its really just better reporting is just hot air and smoke and mirrors.

    The cold facts are that there are more reported violent crimes – therefore, it is safe to assume that more violent crimes are happening. No matter what statements you throw up around this, you are just clutching at straws as it is the logical hypothesis.

    How on earth can someone claim to know that while reporting has improved, actual violent crime has decreased – unless they know what happens in every single household in New Zealand?

    Words of advice: never try getting a statistical or operational research type job – you would fail big time.

  18. yeah. ev. I know. The request goes for all of us.

    spot. victimisation surveys are one attempt to capture the actual crime rate. But it is important that we acknowledge there are three elements that could vary the recorded crime stats –
    – actual crime level changes
    – changes in reporting levels
    – changes in recording practice (that happened between 2005 and 2006)

    So, when we see a change we ask which of these could be the explanation. Have we seen an worsening of the conditions that lead to crime (more poverty, unemployment, fewer police etc)? That may mean the increase is due to an actual increase in crime. We haven’t seen those conditions worsen signficantly in the last year, in fact most of them have improved.

    Have we seen an improvement in the conditions for reporting? Yes, the family violence campaign too place and we had a 30% increase in the reporting of family crime. Unlikely to be a coincidence. Note, you take out family violence and crime has dropped several percent. If crime was rising, it would be unlikely it would confined to this single type of crime.

  19. r0b 19

    Unless you have hardcore proof, then violent crime has increased – harping on about someone who claims to be an expert saying that they know it all and its really just better reporting is just hot air and smoke and mirrors

    Yeah sean, what do those police “experts” know about crime eh. Not as much as you right?

  20. Pete 20

    Steve bro you need to get out more. Many women enjoy watching porno alone or with their partners. Sex toy sales are on the up and up. Quite frankly I find it rather disgusting that you suggest a woman that enjoys these things isn’t really a “woman” but some man toy. Of course there are problems within the industry – there always have been and always will be – much like any other industry.

    Your perspective is just another form of misogyny – one which suggests that a woman is not capable of looking after herself or intelligent enough to select things that are pleasurable to her. Nice one…

    Remember all the freaky people make up the beauty of the world.

    [bro, I know plenty about the freaky side of things and I know well there are many empowered women who are into all kinds of things but I also know that the pornography industry is primarily disempowered women being used by men. SP]

  21. ghostwhowalks 21

    There was Farrars mock umbrage today over the Brash emails saga with this comment
    ..The alleged theft was notified to Police in August 2005
    The Police did not begin their investigation until September 2006 – 13 months later!

    But Hootens comment put the formal complaint laid by Brash was September 2006. Of course Brash was making noises before this but didnt want to complain until he realised his political career was over.

    Some stats about Farrars results from election campaigns he has had a formal role.
    Wellington Regional Vice Chair- lost all seats except 1
    Wellington Central- campaign manager, lost , even with dream candidate of ex mayor

  22. r0b. Sean’s a genius he knows everything. No, he doesn’t need to look anything up, do any research, rely on the findings of experts – he already knows all the answers, he’s just waiting for the questions.
    Being an ignorant conservative means never having to say ‘I don’t know’

  23. r0b 23

    r0b. Sean’s a genius he knows everything.

    What a terrible burden that must be for him. And so misunderstood.

  24. spot 24

    All fair points SP, guess one of the things I was trying to get at was (as you note) the coincidence vs causal relationships.

    Never fails to dissapoint me where the cheap point scoring gets the coverage, or how far they lot of em will actually go to push a line they know really doesn’t stand scrutiny, but by which time it matters it’s “yesterdays fish n chips wrapping” etc.

    Politics though huh, elections and desperation (to get in, and to stay) will always make for a good hunk of “conservative truth telling” and definitely cheapshot campaigning.

  25. Ben R 25

    “Crime is down because poverty and the conditions that breed crime have been reduced.”

    Labour also deserve credit for the Sentencing Act 2002 which has lead to longer sentences. Also since the Parole Act 2002 people are serving a greater proportion of their sentences.

    This, together with increased police numbers has probably also helped reduce the overall crime rate.

  26. Ag 26

    Why does anyone think this will make any difference? The conservative movement abandoned truth a long time ago. Truth only matters to them when it accidentally agrees with them. Otherwise they don’t care about it. That’s what happens with a faith-based (in the broad sense) political movement.

    Hell, I remember the Herald once having a headline about the increase in crime over an article that described the decrease in crime. Words start to lose their meanings when this becomes prevalent.

  27. Ben R 27

    “That’s what happens with a faith-based (in the broad sense) political movement.”

    I thought a conservative was by nature skeptical & wanted to see evidence before making changes?

  28. Ag 28

    “I thought a conservative was by nature skeptical & wanted to see evidence before making changes?”

    Would that it were still so. I actually liked those people, since you could at least talk to them and they had some sense of shame. I guess there are still some of them left, but today’s self-appointed “conservatives” are a misnomer. They espouse what seems to be a radical faith-based politics driven by some sort of primal rage against “socialists” or “liberals” (where those words lack their customary meaning).

    They’re like the reporters from 1984: “The chocolate ration has been increased this week from 25 grams to 20 grams. All praise Big Brother!”

    Captcha: Casual reports. 😉

  29. outofbed 29

    I can never understand why Farrar hangs out with Slater He would garner a modicum of respect from me he didn’t hang out with that nasty misogynist pornographer.
    They say You can judge a man by the company he keeps.

  30. RedLogix 30

    And I suppose it would be tiresomely technical of me to point out that this report uses absolute numbers… uncorrected for population increase.

  31. Common boys – leave my mates alone. Or are you going to have a wack at me for putting up pics of naked men bums?

    I can’t see how you can support legislation decriminalising prostitution and yet get rabid about porn.

    There is a big range of porn from erotica – which is what most people tolerate to the hard ass stuff I had to put up with for four years in a medium security jail.

    The world is not black and white boys its many hues of grey.

    BTW – Farrars right about the stats, thats why its called right wing politics we tend to be, well right. And at the moment you guys are being left in the dust..

    The truth is our lovely country is less safe than it once was.

    So instead of trying to defend the stats, which are quitefrankly appalling, think about the one thing that can be done to help to make it a little bit safer and do us a favour and blog about that…

  32. Draco T Bastard 32

    Ben R

    I thought a conservative was by nature skeptical & wanted to see evidence before making changes?

    Nope, a conservative is someone who wants things to stay the same because they’re too terrified of change.

  33. Draco T Bastard 33

    RedLogix:

    And I suppose it would be tiresomely technical of me to point out that this report uses absolute numbers uncorrected for population increase.

    Corrected for population increase – crime has decreased.

    The figures showed 107 more offences were recorded in the year than in the June 2007 year. Adjusted for the population increase in the same period, it was a 1 per cent decrease, police said.

  34. RedLogix 34

    The truth is our lovely country is less safe than it once was.

    More likely:

    1. You know more about life than you did once.

    2. You’ve become more risk-averse than you were when you were young.

    3. As a result your perceptions about ‘safety’ have changed.

    The truth is complex. NZ has always had a dark violent underbelly; but mostly it was confined and hidden away from middle-class sensibilities. Our mean streets were always.. well mean.

    Two things have changed. We are less tolerant of violence than we once were; while at the same time P has changed our crime/drug underworld from sad and thuggish… to freaky and brutal.

    think about the one thing that can be done to help to make it a little bit safer and do us a favour and blog about that

    What exactly do you have in mind?

  35. vto 35

    ha ha, putting aside the actual topic, this is a bwilliant example of pots and kettles SP.

    But I gotta say that on average Farrar’s threads and topics are more balanced, bipartisan (where appropriate) and researched than your own by a country mile. And he gives kudos to the left where deserved etc too.

    Re this actual topic, it seems he may have stepped a bit too far in his interpretations and conclusions, but that is not common imo.

  36. Well one thing that gets me going is seeing people like Eugene Ryder parading around in gang colours saying he is working to stop kids from getting into gangs . He should not get any money until he stops advertising black power. what is needed is for the ex gang leaders to drop the colours and explain why they have to the young ones contemplating getting involved. Older guys like Denis O’Reilly and Harry Tam who have walked away from the old life but who have a history of turning kids lives around.

    I saw too many like Ryder inside the jail. They still glory in the colours and the creed and that is not the way to go.

    I am also a firm believer in keeping the little buggers busy.. It is labour and cost intensive but again it works..

    Everything has to be about giving them hope and opening their eyes to the possibilities in the world.

    But it should be against a backdrop of near zero tolerance..

    I speak from some experience but I also know that youth crime is one of the most difficult problems to solve. If I had my way I would work for a cross party accord – a few ideas from here and there – the will and buy in from everyone and then maybe we could get some programmes going that work. That being said there will be some out there that do work – the trick is replicating them.

    Hell it might even happen if the Maori Party and the Nats have a little korero after the election..

    BB

  37. randal 37

    so the question is: is farrar going to call 0800newcop or just hang around blagging about it?

  38. bustedblonde, now there’s a name for ya. I’ve seen that tag somewhere before but is had a different name attached to it, I think.

  39. burt 39

    Steve P.

    being friends with a pornographer shows a disrespectful attitude to women at least. Many feminists argue porn promotes rape – so associating with someone like that while writing beat up stories abotu rape is pretty awful in my books. Of course, that’s just one element of Farrar’s misogyny and I have a problem with misogynists trying to make political capital off rape. SP

    Feminists have also said in the past that all men are rapists. Are you a rapist Steve?

    I like porn, I’ve never raped – never would rape. I know plenty of woman who like porn as well.

    I suggest it’s you trying to make political capital off rape.

  40. Chris 40

    Yeah, come on steve, as a social liberal leave the porn out of it! remember, we’re pro-choice? Or are you one of those social liberal till it crosses your values type guys?

  41. I don’t think David is a disgusting person, but the fact that you would call someone a disgusting person says a lot about you.

    I said it a thousand times, walk thru Christchurch at night during any day of the week, and you will see what effect a soft approach to crime has.

  42. slightlyrighty 42

    Great. Shoot the messenger as opposed to a constructive debate. Keep it up cos it’s working really well isn’t it!

    (captcha hysterical an. appropriate isn’t it!)

  43. Dean 43

    “First, he’s trying to make you think there are more rapes (in fact, the number is down and he’s hardly one to fret about rape when he’s good mates with a pornographer).”

    I’m not sure why you’re trying to make yourself seem stupid SP but I’m sure you’re aware that:

    a. Porn does not equal rapist and
    b. Many feminists don’t have a problem with porn

    Perhaps it’s the sheltered world you live in.

  44. GPT 44

    This blog claims to have “standards” for commentators and seems very quick to ban any and all for anything deemed a personal attack and yet you find it necessary to call Farrar “a disgusting person” and intimate that b/c he is apparently friends with a pornographer (how is this relevant?) that he somehow condones rape?

    Is their one rule for you and one rule for everyone else?

    Hypocracy of a Winston Peters level.

    [lprent: What the posters write is their own opinion. The blog site doesn’t have an opinion – it is a program running on a machine. Read the About. ]

  45. Dean 45

    “[bro, I know plenty about the freaky side of things and I know well there are many empowered women who are into all kinds of things but I also know that the pornography industry is primarily disempowered women being used by men. SP]”

    This is even better.

    I don’t think you know much about the modern day porn industry, SP. But as always you’ll speak out against it because you’re looking to score points. Have you considered activism for the EBs? You know it makes sense.

  46. Tony Norriss 46

    I heard the deputy commissioner talking to Larry Williams on ZB today. He said that only 30% of crime is reported. He gave me the impression that he thought that was great!! However, it seems that the low level of reporting makes comparisons with previous years fairly meaningless unless the level of non-reporting can be accurately estimated for the previous years as well. If the level of non-reporting has been steadily increasing, as many believe, then the stats may indeed be misrepresenting the figures.

    In any case, it is misleading to state that the increase in violent crime is due to the increase in domestic offences. The stats show that many other aspects of violent offending have also increased.

  47. RedLogix 47

    As with SP I don’t get overwrought by the freaky side of life; it exists and all sorts of people have all sorts of predilictions in their private lives, and I’m not about to come over judgemental about it.

    But Farrar is no longer an altogether private person, he’s spent years working assiduously to make himself a public person. As such his open friendship with the odious Slater is a mistake; the sort of mistake if say for instance John Key was mates with Steve Crow.

    It’s poor judgement and not a good look, whatever position you want to take on the politics of porn.

  48. Dean 48

    redlogix:

    “But Farrar is no longer an altogether private person, he’s spent years working assiduously to make himself a public person. As such his open friendship with the odious Slater is a mistake; the sort of mistake if say for instance John Key was mates with Steve Crow.”

    And that makes him A-OK with rape?

    You need to get a grip on reality and leave the politics behind.

    “It’s poor judgement and not a good look, whatever position you want to take on the politics of porn.”

    You couldn’t have said it better yourself. I suggest that you and SP have a good long think about that.

  49. RedLogix 49

    And that makes him A-OK with rape?

    I’ll add that to my barn full of strawmen.

    Slater is slime. And his creepy and demeaning porn exudes slime… the kind that sticks to everyone around it.

  50. Disengaged 50

    I’m sorry Steve but once again you have me confused. DPF has put a different slant on the figures than you. There is no suprise in that. One is looking from the left, the other the right. I fail to see how that makes him disgusting.

    More importantly I fail to see how just because he knows a pornographer means that he condones rape. One of my friends from school was arrested for armed robbery, does that mean that I condone violent crime? No.

    As to your statements about porn being responsible for rape, I think that you are being deliberately obtuse. Perhaps you and your significant other should check out some of the erotica for couples available on the market and see if you think that is encouraging rape. Also tell me another industry where women routinely get paid five times (if not more) as much as their male counterparts?

    Capture: Stock Problem – Tell me about it!!!

  51. Hmm, I detect significant anger being directed at the right side of the blogo-sphere. Including a (deleted) post by Irishbill directed at one of my colleagues. Does this indicate panic on the left that the election campaign is not going well ?

  52. Tane 52

    You want to talk anger, Bryan, have a look at some of the hatemail we receive from your friends on the right.

    In any case, no, what that post indicates is that your colleague is being somewhat less than honest in his dealings. But that’s what we’ve come to expect from his blog posts.

    While we’re on the topic, Bryan, I might as well point out that you and Matthew are both in breach of policy.net’s Privacy Policy. You might want to check that out.

  53. Anita 53

    Probably the Privacy Act as well.

  54. I will take that as “Yes,things are not going well!!!!”.

  55. Pascal's bookie 55

    Is Tame Wilson a colleague? Will he be commenting again?

  56. burt 56

    randal

    so the question is: is farrar going to call 0800newcop or just hang around blagging about it?

    Excellent point. He could start up KiwiPlodBlog.

  57. GPT 57

    Ah Tane. Moral relativism at its best. It’s ok to say vile things about Farrar b/c he’s wrong.

    lprent – so posters can be as insulting and vile as they like but commentators cannot?

    [lprent: I agree with SP on this about DPF’s use of statistics. Have a look at the analysis on 08wire

    http://08wire.org/2008/10/02/farrar-vs-the-standard-on-massaging-crime-statistics/

    The point is that DPF was doing the classic focus on the crime stats by only reporting them in a way to show conclusion that he wished to it to show. I’ve read DPF’s response and it is pathetic because he hasn’t even acknowledged his manipulative bias. Good on SP for pointing out the DPF’s lack of statistical integrity.

    The comment about Whale is actually unrelated and probably detracted from SP’s post. However I’d also describe Whale in similar terms because of his habit of pasting kids heads onto porn and then publishing them on the net, plus many other instances. The pornographer even boasts about his ability on photoshop.]

  58. So why has the post by IrishBill about Matthew been taken down ?

  59. Tane 59

    GPT. I don’t know what you think I’m referring to, but you sound like you’ve got it all backwards.

    Bryan. I took it down because while not in breach of our policy, upon further reflection and reader feedback I decided it wasn’t the kind of thing we should be engaging in.

    In any case, you haven’t addressed my point. Are you planning to make your site compliant with your privacy policy, or is it just there for a laugh?

  60. Given that I am a 100% sure that Lynn is correct about the static IP’s matching it looks like someone was pretending to be Matthew Hooton pretending to be Tame. The comments by the person purporting to be Matthew Hooton don’t look as if they were written by the real Matthew Hooton.

    Has the real culprit been identified and was this the reason for IrishBill’s post being pulled ?

    Fascinating, better than Coronation Street!!!!

  61. burt 61

    Retrospective validation at the standard.

  62. When someone impersonates me I insist they spell my name correctly, have a look at Robinsods blog for an example of what not to do.

    burt- I guess retrospective validation is what the left does best 😉

  63. Tane – “I took it down because while not in breach of our policy, upon further reflection and reader feedback I decided it wasn’t the kind of thing we should be engaging in.”

    I applaud your decision to adhere to a higher standard.

  64. GPT 64

    Apologies if I got it backwards Tane – you were referring to a “colleague” (of Bryan’s) being less than honest in his blog posts. I took that as referring to DPF and, given your reference to the ‘hatemail from the right’ I took your comment as justifying the tenor of this post.

  65. Carol 65

    On Checkpoint Mary Wilson interviewed the police spokesperson. He compared the reported statistics with the Crime Survey. This is a anonymous survey of a large number of people about their experiences of crime. Apparently this survey shows about one third of violent crimes are not reported. He says that the increase in violent crime is solely accounted for by domestic violence. He also said that the increase in youth violence is also in this category:i.e. more violence from young people in domestic contexts.

    The police guy said that the stat that points to more domestic violence being reported, is the one that shows more reporting of low level domestic disputes. He says this indicates that people are more aware of the importance of reporting domestic disputes/violence.
    http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/checkpoint
    Checkpoint NZ Crime Reporting: 18.11 hrs.

  66. I have no regrets about calling Farrar disgusting. He’s purposely misrepresenting crime stats for political gain. The fact is crime was much worse when his ilk were in power and it would get worse again if they got back into power but Farrar and National aren’t actually concerned about the victims of crime, they just want to run their NZ sucks campaign and get back into power. It’s disgusting.

  67. QoT 67

    Steve … sure, you’ve made concessions and elaborations in response to comments on this thread, but at the end of the day, you’re the one who said “being friends with a pornographer” = “unlikely to care about rape”.

    It doesn’t matter what “many feminists say” about the pornography industry.

    It doesn’t matter that “this is only part of Farrar’s misogyny”.

    Because your post still says “Farrar cannot actually care about rape because he’s friends with a pornographer”, and the clear insinuation is that we’re meant to say, “Yes, Steve, you’re totes right, befriending pornographers means not caring about rape”. It’s a cheap shot, it’s judgemental, it’s an inaccurate generalization, it’s not backed up by anything in your original post.

    Admitting this, and not making excuses in the comments, would be a great thing for you to do.

    If you want this thread to stay on-track with regard to Farrar’s misuse of crime statistics, you can be the one to not make bullshit personal attacks in the original post.

  68. rave 68

    I’m happy to accept that Farrar gets worried about rape. I’ll take his word for it. But he gives a different impression with his dismissive attitude towards family violence as accounting for the increase in violent crime in the last year. He doesnt think that the police explanation is ‘credible’ because he cannot conceive of an increased reporting of serious and grievous family assault. This is the old ‘just a domestic’ in new guise.

    He and his rightie mates seem to be more worried about pinning the increase on violent crime on the Labour led government rather than accept that the police may be right and that family violence accounts for the increase in violent crime.

    Myself I’m not inclined to take the Police testimony on anything for very different reasons. But when they adopt a serious attitude towards family violence compared to the kneejerk blaming of a criminal underclass created by Labour welfarism I’m inclined to believe them.

    I would say that the “It’s not OK” campaign needs to be widened from the ‘domestic’ to the ‘global’. The real perpetrators of family violence are people like Key’s mate Lord Ashcroft ripping money intended for slum renewal off the people of Belize or Key’s former associates at Merrill Lynch getting rich off subprime mortgages that are making millions homeless in the US.
    A National government cutting taxes by cutting social spending will make life much worse for low income people in NZ and lead to a growth in family violence.

  69. JG 69

    Articles like this – completely detached from reality and laced with personal insults – demonstrate how unreasonable and ill-informed the commentators (using the term loosely) on this blog are.

    It’s obvious that National wiping people like you out of positions of authority is the only thing that will shut you up. Not long now.

    [lprent: You are a complete dork. Are you suggesting that the Nay’s will be trying to censor a blog site paid for and run by an individual and written by other individuals? Or are you stupid enough to believe Whale who technically couldn’t find his arse without access to a mirror. He lies when he doesn’t have enough ‘evidence’ to justify his preconceptions. That is the basis of most of his assertions about this site.]

  70. r0b 70

    Articles like this – completely detached from reality and laced with personal insults – demonstrate how unreasonable and ill-informed the commentators (using the term loosely) on this blog are.

    Comments like this – completely detached from reality and laced with vague threats – demonstrate how unreasonable and violent the commentators (using the term loosely) on the right wing are.

    It’s obvious that National wiping people like you out of positions of authority is the only thing that will shut you up. Not long now.

    Come and see the violence inherent in the system! Help! Help! We’re being repressed!

  71. mattyroo 71

    Any of you losers that are saying that actual crime has decreased in relative terms to population, are by extension saying that this crime is alright. This may well be true that it has decreased relatively, however on the whole violent crimes are on the increase, and probably more so in the areas of society, where the population, is not increasing as proportionately as the crime.

    clinton, I can only hope that next time you are out of your house, some asshole comes round and steals everything you own. Being a loser socialist though, you probably don’t own anything, as you’ve never got off your pimply ass to actually earn a respectable living and get ahead.

    Having been the victim of two significant crimes this year, this is right now a hot issue for me. Having lived in the same place for a long time and not had any crime ever, for me personally it has increased tremendously.

    And worse still, I had one of your horrible ilk tell me recently that one of these crimes was ok, as these “down and outs” “need these chances to get ahead”.

    I loathe, actually hate, anyone who is defending the current “crime wave” we are having in this country. If I ran into you smith, I would perpetrate some of mine own crime on you, for good measure.

    Horrible little puke. Keep defending the undefensible.

    IrishBill: that’s a ban for life and I’ll be asking Steve if he wants to lay a complaint with your ISP for threatening him.

  72. Razorlight 72

    SP that was the most over the top response I have read on the blogosphere. I have enjoed reading your posts because they challenge my political opinions. I rarely agree with them but I understand where you are coming from.

    I have no idea where you are coming from with this garbage though. It simply shows an irrational hatred towards those on the right.

    How can you now pretend to hold the moral high ground over people like Whale when you write deeply offensive comments like “and he’s hardly one to fret about rape when he’s good mates with a pornographer” DPF is justifiably offended by this and feels he has been defamed.

    I am worried about how wound up and angry you will get in the very probable event that the right sweeps into power in a few weeks time. My suggestion is breath, relax and try to get rid of this hate you have built up inside you. The right are Kiwi’s as well. They aren’t evil. Don’t be afraid.

  73. Anita 73

    burt,

    Excellent point. He could start up KiwiPlodBlog.

    Hee!

    This is why I hang out in the comments threads brilliance! 🙂

  74. Santi 74

    Travellerv sais “And he may not agree with my ideas about 911…”

    Ahhh, the delights of being obsessed with innumerable conspiracy theories and the desire to ram them down on others.

    Your imagination knows no bounds Dutch Einstein.

  75. Good on ya SP! About time more people took Farrar to task. For too long now he’s been viewed as independent, even as an independent political commentator (which I consider a bit of a joke).

  76. vidiot 76

    So it’s OK to adjust the crime rates by allowing for annual population growth, but for some reason this method doesn’t extend to the road toll ? Now what was that again ?

    “being friends with a pornographer shows a disrespectful attitude to women at least.”

    What happens if he only shot gay pron ? Would that be disrespectful to woman too or is that a double standard ?

  77. Hey Santi,

    vto, HS, Lucas and Billy want you to hang with them. They are starting a club. The “lets keep our fingers in our ears and say,” lalala, I can’t hear you” club.

    Feel free to ignore my comments if you don’t like them.

    In the mean time you are about to vote for John Key a proven liar who can’t stop gambling and who was the managing director of the debt (bonds and derivatives) for Merrill Lynch. The very products now blowing up the Western financial world. Sucker.

  78. vto 78

    travellerev stop attacking me without justification or evidence or this will all end in a very nasty way.

    ffs, if you were a rightie you would have been banned some time ago. this is total crap.

  79. lukas 79

    vto, HS, Lucas and Billy want you to hang with them.

    What the crazy? I havent said boo to you in ages…. its proving good for my sanity levels.

    Eve… you always spout on about how many people “read” your blog. With the amount of link whoring you do, anyone could get as many hits as you do. What probably counts more is how many people comment and engage with you on your “blog”, from my visits there (still washing my computer screen from the coffee spouting) the general trend is for there to be a grand total of zero comments.

    Eve, as much as you would like for me, HS, VTO etc etc to fit your picture of us all being angry, middle class, middle age white males… we are not (well at least I am not). I am a young, well educated white male just starting out in this world. I work part time for my self and part time for someone else and the other part of my time I volunteer at my local church. I am by no means angry at the world or anyone, infact I just got married this year so am fairly happy with life and the world in general. Yes I am white though… oh well, can’t win them all a?

  80. vto,

    Was that a threat?

    I have never pre-emptively attacked you, it was you who started to ridicule me for my views and you did so in a patronising, misogynist way. In fact I never called you personally patronising nor misogynist until you took sides in a confrontation I had with I think HS.

    If you do that than don’t expect me to take it lying down.

    Evidence? What do I accuse you off that would justify you asking me for evidence.
    I only give you my view on you. My opinion. You may not like it but there you have it.
    Feel free not to react to my comments and ignore them. I don’t ask you for anything but if you comment expect a reaction.

    If you can’t stand the heat I suggest you get out of the kitchen mate.
    I react very badly to threats and bullying.

  81. Lucas,

    Congrats with your wedding. Feel free to keep on ignoring me, it proved quit pleasant for me too.

    I don’t invite comments to my blog although people seem to do it more.
    Added to that a couple of sites are pinging so the information clearly means something to those people as they want to spread it.

  82. vto 82

    Shut the fuck up travellerev, I have never ridiculed your views. I actuallyy think they have some substance.

    You attacked – first white middle class males and then me.

    You have still provided no proof for any of your allegations.

    Take that threat any way you want you racist sexist creep.

  83. Matthew Pilott 83

    Is anyone else getting really sick of eve’s long-running personal battles?

  84. Vanilla Eis 84

    Aye

  85. Pascal's bookie 85

    MP

    Yep. But she’s not the sole person to blame. Lot’s of commenters go at her with boring, repetitive responses, with equally predictable results.

    yawns all round on mulitiple threads, all at the same time.

    They should all just quit it, and learn ignore each other. For the rest of our sakes if not their own.

  86. vto 86

    Agreed, apologies to you others. I just don’t can’t stand hollow unjustified abuse.

    Anyway, back to the boondoxx for me today for a few more daze. Chase them wee fishes and get some sanity back. Or not.

  87. MP
    Go play with the other boys will you.

    No vto I called HS a typical middle class Pakeha and you identified with him and joined the fray telling me you were a typical class Pakeha and proud of it and than you told me to get fucked. Which was echoed by T-rex.

    Telling me to shut up is not a good look. Freedom of speech and all that. Feel free to ignore me.

    But on a positive note I seem to be on good footing with the Rex at the moment. So let me ask you which of my views you think have some merit.

  88. T-rex 88

    “In fact I never called you personally patronising nor misogynist until you took sides in a confrontation I had with I think HS.”

    Ahhhhhh.

    Says it all really.

    Matt – Yes. As I said on the other side, it’s embarrassing. I’m sure the mods feel the same way. It’s just harder to kick someone who’s on your side (at least in vague, general ideology terms).

  89. T-rex 89

    “MP
    Go play with the other boys will you.”

    This would be an example of the “abuse by provocation” you’re referring to PB?

    As she so wonderfully illustrated above – all that’s actually required is for someone to disagree.

  90. trav etc. please cool it.

    I recommend 08wire’s post on this debate. He does fair and dispassionate much better than I.

    And this is my definitive comment on my reference to Farrar’s friendship with Slater the pornographer:

    “I admit I hit the line and I did it intentionally. It seriously pisses me off to see a creep try to make political capital out of rape victims and victims of other crimes. Especially when the body of evidence is that it was the policies that he supports from the 1990s that pushed up crime, whereas the full employment polices since 1999 have been instrumental in giving young men constructive activities and a sense of belonging, thereby bringing down crime (and suicide).

    To people like Farrar this is all just a game. They don’t actually care about finding ways to bring down crime (or improve living standards for the poor in other ways). If they did care, they wouldn’t misrepresent the stats.

    I was prepared to burn a bit of my personal reputation for analysis to call them on it.”

  91. T-rex 91

    “But on a positive note I seem to be on good footing with the Rex at the moment.”

    We’ve our ups and downs I think it’s probably fair to say 🙂

    Just don’t get so mad when you can’t get people to think like you.

  92. higherstandard 92

    Clinton does your pomposity and singular occularity know no bounds ?

  93. T-rex 93

    “If they did care, they wouldn’t misrepresent the stats.”

    Or endorse policies which have been proven to worsen the situation.

    re: The homicide stats you had for Auckland in the other post on the topic though, there is a bit of an upward trend there. In mean it’s still no worse than it was at the end of the 90’s, but after a slump early at the start of the decade it’s been rising back up again. (Retracted – went back and reread the point about small numbers: 21 a year is pretty tricky to draw any useful conclusion from considering how few are actually “random acts of violence”)

    That said, I don’t think you made enough of the increased rate of resolution. It’s been steadily increasing for some time, there’s not just a step change when those new cops came on board. Food for thought for those who tireless b*tch out our police force – I can’t be bothered going back to that page of stats to check, but wasn’t the resolution rate up around 85%?
    Good job, cops.

  94. MP
    Go play with the other boys will you.

    No vto, I called HS a typical middle class male Pakeha and you identified with him and joined the fray telling me you were a typical middle class male Pakeha and proud of it and than you told me to get fucked. Which was echoed by T-rex.

    Telling me to shut up is not a good look. Freedom of speech and all that. Feel free to ignore me.

    But on a positive note I seem to be on good footing with the Rex at the moment. So let me ask you which of my views you think have some merit and see if we can get this back on track in a more positive way.

    I’ll start with ignoring the insult “racist sexist creep” how about that for a positive step.

    Hello guys,

    Why is it with you guys that you always take one of the sides and always that of the male.

    All males against one woman for standing up for herself. You clearly aren’t used to that.

    Thanks Pascals bookie for pointing the role of the others out.

    I’ve invited each and every one of them to ignore because that is just fine with me but I will not be bullied into silence because I say things they do not want to hear.

    And as for the ongoing “personal” stuff. This site only gets higher ratings if treats go on longer and since the only people reading these threads who can’t stop reading them while the rest move on to newer and better threats the moderators are probably happy to let it go on for a bit. LOL.

    Especially since I do comment pertinent to threads as well and some people actually do want the information I give as I always link to background info.

  95. lukas 95

    was that a copy and past re-mix of your previous comments?

    Thanks for the congrats on the wedding… was a beautiful day with a beautiful wife. Clever thing was having the wedding on the 29th of February!

  96. hi T-rex,

    I don’t want people to think like me. In fact I invite people not to believe me and do their own research. Please, Please don’t believe me or anyone and do your own research and make up your own mind. That is my advise.

    I just present the facts as I see them and they differ vastly from theirs which invites their ridicule and insults.

    Whereas I have to say that other than the 911 issue I seem to be seeing eye to eye with you on a lot of issues.

    And to get back to the thread compared to the Netherlands this country is crime free. I’m not suggesting that those who are hurt in violent attacks or killed don’t exist and their pain should be ignored but the amount of murders and burglaries and white collar and real estate fraud are massive compared with here.

    Nobody can leave their doors unlocked anytime of the day or night, You have to lock your bicycle to Rain pipes with at least three chains and forget about leaving your car radio in your car. And this goes for cities as well as rural areas.

    I saw that Holland was on the 7th place of the corruption scale and I’m sad to say I’m not surprised.

    The year I left Holland there were 6 broad day Mafia style executions of Real estate agents in streets with children running around alone. One of them being the richest guy in Holland.
    Russian mobsters have taken over in many branches of business after the wall came down and I’ve only seen it get worse.

    The only thing I found disconcerting when I arrived here was the rape case against those three cops.

    And in the three years I’ve been here I’ve seen every major case cracked in remarkably short times where as in the case of the real estate murders they are still investigating in Holland so that’s saying something about the quality of the policing here I reckon.

  97. r0b 97

    SP: “I was prepared to burn a bit of my personal reputation for analysis to call them on it.’

    Someone needs to call them on it, and while I’m not sure of your method, I do admire your motive.

    Those who are self righteously attacking SP on this one would do well to direct their energies to cleaning up the sewer that is the Kiwiblog comments section. The log on your own eye eh?

  98. QoT 98

    Steve … I don’t know how this can be explained more clearly.

    Your post makes an explicit link between being friends with a pornographer and not caring about rape.

    You do not mention Farrar’s history on this issue.

    You do not offer any elaboration.

    Are we supposed to pat you on the back for the noble sacrifice of your “reputation” just to get off a cheap shot which shreds the credibility of what would otherwise be a really important post?

    Are we supposed to be impressed that you think it’s okay to make statements and assumptions about people’s beliefs based on nothing more (and again, this is your post, SP, you wrote it, you chose not to elaborate or provide supporting details) than who they are friends with? Because that is what you did in this post. The problem isn’t Farrar’s personal beliefs. It’s what you have said about them and based your statements on.

  99. Matty K 99

    Aside from Farrar’s motivations for pushing his version of the statistics, the fact is that violent crimes have increased under Labour (even as a per-1000 people ratio) and significantly in the past year in some regions. Arguing that it hasn’t is displaying the same sort of blindness that Farrar is accused of by many here.

    Disregarding any personal opinion on it, the statistics show violent crime – the one’s which keep people awake at night and have the greatest personal/family effects – is still on the increase. And markedly so in the areas targeted as being the most impoverished.

  100. r0b 100

    Matty K, if you read the original post at all, you clearly didn’t understand it.

    QoT, please get your self righteous ass on over to Kiwiblog. There is plenty of work for you there.

  101. lprent 101

    Matty: As the police have acknowledged, the majority of violent crime probably doesn’t get reported. The usual estimates are that only about a third gets reported because it happens inside the domestic disputes. Over the last few years they have run a active policy and advertising campaign to increase the rate of reporting.

    It appears to be working. Consequently the reported violence stats have been increasing. If you look at the violent crimes that always gets reported like murder, they have remained static or reduced when you look at them over a few years. Read the 08wire analysis http://08wire.org/2008/10/02/farrar-vs-the-standard-on-massaging-crime-statistics/

    DPF just ignored all of that because it didn’t fit the picture he wished to portray.

  102. Quoth the Raven 102

    I said it a thousand times, walk thru Christchurch at night during any day of the week, and you will see what effect a soft approach to crime has.

    I don’t see what your problem is Brett as I said earlier I feel perfectly safe in Christchurch. Maybe you’re just paranoid Brett. This government has been much harder on crime than the last government. Its increased sentences to ridiculous levels and given a stupid amount power to the police. What more do you want, a police state?

  103. Matthew Pilott 103

    Eve, just pointing out that a majority of what you say seems to be abuse. Here’s what I’ve seen so far over the last few months:

    You will post and link to your blog and articles – all very well and I’m sure many people have popped over to read it and check out the links you suggest (as have I, on several occassions).

    Then someone will make a cheap jibe, along the lines of ‘conspiracy theorist’, or some unimaginitave variant.

    You generally take the bait and run a mile, but instead of attacking them for being small-minded etc, it’s more of an attack against entire sections of society, which irks people who might fit into the section of society you’re attacking, but haven’t said a single bad thing against you.

    For example, there are a fair few white males, aged 20-40 here, if my presumption is correct. Whether I got the wrong end of the stick or not, it seems to me that several times you’ve attacked that group wholesale, because of one person. As evidenced above, that annoys people.

    If I can make a request, it would be that you refrain from attacking groups or making assumptions about people – the effects of it are plain to see. The latest is a classic – we’re all attacking you because you’re female, apparently.

    I was criticising you because I’m sick of your long-running personal battles – what has that got to do with you being female? Are you implying only females are that annoying? If so, you’re being a bit sexist, towards your own lot.

    I’d also be happy if people stopped baiting you, though those who do aren’t likely to listen to me. You have the option of ignoring them though – a lengthy personal attack isn’t exactly likely to change their views!

  104. marco 104

    The actual rate of recorded crime depends on policing methods which vary between districts.

    In Auckland police are less likely to prosecute people for minor crimes when they are not currently considered a risk. They perfer warnings but they are now finding that by doing this people are starting to try their luck with more serious crime. What the lack of reporting is doing is lowering the rate of crime when its actually not lowering at all, its increasing.

    In Christchurch police take a tougher approach with minor offences. They target the so called gateway crime to get the young offenders into the system in an attempt to ensure they recieve the help they need.

    The result is the Christchurch crime rate is accurate. The Auckland crime rate is about 2% lower than it should be in the reported statistic.

  105. weka 105

    For the people that think that Farrar has genuine concern about rape as a politcal issue, please show me where he’s written about this. Of course most men care at some level about rape, but we’re talking about a political context here.

    Steve, thanks for making visible the connection between rape and pornography, even in a small way. It’s problematic that it was said in passing, because it’s brought out a large amount of comment negating the connection, by people who don’t understand what the connection even is. But it’s good that it was said, there will women who appreciate that.

    all men are rapists

    Whoever brought that up as a way of writing off feminist thought, I suggest you go and look up the provenance of that quote and see what it really means.

  106. Ben R 106

    Weka,

    “It’s problematic that it was said in passing”

    Isn’t that the main problem with SP’s comment? It was dropped in as a personal attack & was not addressing the point Farrar was making. His point was that overall crime rates may not be as useful as the particular type of crimes being committed.

  107. Mike 107

    I think all those ads promoting violence on TV are the reason violent crime has gone up so much.

    Every night I see so many ads showing you how to swing your child around and bash them into things.

    Or showing you how to drink and drive and kill your mates.

    I think it’s appalling that good people should be subjected to a constant barrage of this crap. This is punishing the whole country for the crimes of the few.

    [I’m not sure whether this is a parody or not. So confused. SP]

  108. [Tane: Heine, you’re still banned. Furthermore, as someone who photoshopped Helen Clark’s head onto a transsexual’s body for kicks I don’t think you’re in any position to moralise.]

  109. Matthew Pilott 109

    Mike, you had to watch an ad to figure out how to put a child into a wall while drunk? Comes instinctively to the rest of us.

    Just out of interest, I reckon those ads work pretty well: so you’d prefer kids to actually be bashed into walls, because you’re too precious to see a few ads on telly?

  110. QoT 110

    Wow, rOb. How about you respect my ability to choose what I want to read, and critique people whose writings I otherwise respect and enjoy reading? Or how about offering an actual response to my point instead of the classic, “but you can’t complain about THIS bad thing unless you also complain about every other bad thing happening” diversion?

  111. QoT 111

    Also, @weka – again, missing the point. Nobody here is arguing “Waaa, Steve’s persecuting The Mighty Farrar, champion of womanhood!” and pretending we are in order to yet again turn the thread away from what Steve said is disingenuous.

  112. r0b 112

    Wow, rOb. How about you respect my ability to choose what I want to read, and critique people whose writings I otherwise respect and enjoy reading?

    Wow, QoT. Sounding a little defensive there. Read what you like, knock yourself out, you don’t need my blessing.

    Or how about offering an actual response to my point instead of the classic, “but you can’t complain about THIS bad thing unless you also complain about every other bad thing happening’ diversion?

    Selective morality is interesting because of the agenda that it reveals. You appear to me to be on a highly selective crusade against SP, despite the fact that there are other much more worthy targets for your righteous zeal. So you could say I guess that I’m interested in your agenda.

  113. Mike 113

    Matthew

    Those ads if anything just make me want to bash the a-holes in them to a pulp – like the guy that shoves the guy with the drinks, then elbows the woman in the face.

    How does instilling that feeling in me help me or the country?

    What about the rest of the 99% of this country who are decent people and don’t need constant reminders not to get boozed and bash people, or speed, or take drugs. How do these ads make them feel? Do these ads help them? I don’t think so. At best it’s insulting. I think many of them just get what I get out of them – a heightened state of aggression.

    You don’t see ads like these in other countries. Come back here from a while overseas and they are a real shock. Personally I think it’s abuse of viewers on an enormous scale.

  114. Matthew Pilott 114

    What about the rest of the 99% of this country who are decent people and don’t need constant reminders not to get boozed and bash people, or speed, or take drugs.

    If only it were 99%… If that’s what you genuinely believe then no wonder their utility is lost on you.

    If those ads provoke such a violent response in you, then I hope you are a very moderate drinker. For me, and (I suspect) most other people, they are simply a reminder of the causes and consequences of bad actions. I don’t think they’re terribly relevant to me, but if they reduce the chance of a random assault, for example, then I’m not fussed.

    I also suspect most viewers have a bit more ‘toughness’, for want of a better word, than you, and see the usefulness of the ads more than they feel ‘abused’ by them.

  115. Mike 115

    Matthew

    what do you believe the proportion is then? You saying more than 1% of the country are crims?

  116. Dean 116

    Qot:

    “Also, @weka – again, missing the point. Nobody here is arguing “Waaa, Steve’s persecuting The Mighty Farrar, champion of womanhood!’ and pretending we are in order to yet again turn the thread away from what Steve said is disingenuous.”

    You’re wasting your time. A lot of people around here will twist and spin anything and fool themselves into believing it’s justified as long as it involves National, Key, foreign (often American) bagmen, the word “slippery” (because the focus groups told them to use that word) and so on.

    If you really want to see them go on the defensive, mention an airport and Peter Davis. r0b just loves that one and I’m sure he will oblige you and call you a disgusting human being for daring to bring a politicians family into focus, while conveniently forgetting Mallard and co over Brash’s extramarital affair.

  117. Matthew Pilott 117

    Gee, I don’t know, Mike. Are you saying that everyone who gets drunk and does something stupid is a criminal?

    Is everyone who had a near miss at an intersection a criminal?

    The problem is more widespread than those who are officially charged and found guilty.

  118. Matthew Pilott 118

    You’re wasting your time.

    What’s that about fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me… What are you still doing here then? More ‘m’ than ‘s’ I guess.

  119. Mike 119

    Matthew

    Sure, the problem is more wide-spread. I believe people who get drunk and bash people are performing criminal acts, and therefore are criminals, whether or not they get reported.

    I think we should be aiming to reduce our tolerance to violence, not increase it by desensitising ourselves with a constant barrage of it on tv, least of all through tax-payer funded ads.

  120. T-Rex 120

    “I think we should be aiming to reduce our tolerance to violence, not increase it by desensitising ourselves with a constant barrage of it on tv, least of all through tax-payer funded ads.”

    That’s the whole point of the ads Mike.

    Most people are already quite intolerant of violence, however they may be more tolerant of significant factors in violence (e.g. excessive drinking). So, the ads create a direct association between the two.

    Clearly they’re not desensitizing YOU to violence, because you think they depict terrible circumstances. Do you know anyone who watches it and goes “hmm, seems like a standup guy to me”?

    Having ads like that on TV is just like tax – another part of living in society and trying to develop systems that make it good. I mean I assume you don’t have cancer, yet you’re not complaining about contributing to the healthcare costs of people who do, right?

    You watch those ads and think “That is TOTALLY unacceptable”. All the ads are trying to do is create similar feelings in people who may see such behaviour more often than you do. You shouldn’t feel guilty watching them… that is, unless you have a friend who drinks too much and kinda gets out of hand and you never say anything despite feeling you should… in which case I’d say the ads are doing exactly what they should be.

    You’re attitude basically takes “It’s not ok” and turns it into “It’s not ok to be reminded about it because I like my fantasy world of denial”.

  121. Dean 121

    MP:

    “What’s that about fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me What are you still doing here then? More ‘m’ than ‘s’ I guess.”

    I just get a kick of of seeing you quote people selectively and then pretend to have the moral high ground.

  122. Mike 122

    There’s the point of something, and then there’s the real effect of something.

    Just because the goal of those ads is to do something good, doesn’t mean they achieve it.

    We can have the best intentions in the world but we will be judged by the results of our actions. It’s pretty common for an action to have the reverse effect of what was desired.

  123. jh 123

    People can’t relate to probabilities or they would never buy lotto tickets, but when an accountant is bashed with a baseball bat as he walks home after a late night bash, this puts others off walking home at night. What people see is heated floors in prison and a society that doesn’t believe in punishment (disincentive)and so they don’t feel safe. The crime we face is largely a product of our liberal establishment.

  124. r0b 124

    What people see is heated floors in prison and a society that doesn’t believe in punishment (disincentive)and so they don’t feel safe.

    Tougher sentences and nastier prisons do not deter crime. In general crime (apart from “white collar” crime) is committed by people who don’t plan ahead much, who don’t ponder consequences.

    The crime we face is largely a product of our liberal establishment.

    The crime we face is largely a product of relative poverty. That explains why over the last years, while poverty has been decreasing (and aspects of our establishment getting more liberal?), crime has been decreasing too.

  125. randal 125

    jh…lucky we not living in roman times. Julius Ceasar and his mates used to lie in wait and kill anybody coming home latea t night for a bit of practice. Now its just yer typical kiwi bloke full of booze and latent anger and aggression because he didnt get to go to the grand final or doesnt own a xr8. As for heated floors only the crims see them and maybe the visitors and it pays off in the life of the building and the decrease in medical expenditure on prisoners. If you want to make them live in stone age conditions and then release them into fulltime medical care beacuse of complications from the prison environment. and if you are jealous beacause you cant afford underfloor heating yourself and feel somewhat lesser of a man then you can compensate by lying in wait and bashing up someone up who you dont know late at night.

  126. higherstandard 127

    r0b

    Poverty is a CONTRIBUTING FACTOR in some criminal behaviour but it is unfair to those millions (may billions) living in relative poverty throughout the world who are not criminals to say that poverty causes crime.

    Agree with you though on those that many who commit crime are either unable to fathom the consequences of their actions or simply don’t care.

    In my opinion if one would crack the problem of how to make them fathom the consequences (and make sure those consequences occurred) that would be a step in the right direction.

  127. randal 128

    hs…we are not talking about the billions somewhere else. we are talking about what happens here in a small country filled with arrogant consumers who love to rub it in the face of the have nots. There is no community spirit not underlying altruism in New Zealand. Only gimme gimme gimme and there is a corollary to conspicuous consumption and a media that works twenty four hours a day ttelling people thaey are no good if the dont have the goods. Now hs. how about addressing income inequality here in new zealand and stop waffling about the uncounted hordes somewhere else or is that too hard?

  128. higherstandard 129

    Randal

    Not sure what part of the country you are living in but I find there is plenty of community spirit and altruism in NZ.

  129. jh 130

    “As for heated floors only the crims see them and maybe the visitors and it pays off in the life of the building and the decrease in medical expenditure on prisoners. If you want to make them live in stone age conditions and then release them into fulltime medical care beacuse of complications from the prison environment.”

    A large proportion of our homes are cold and damp so that creates a moral hazard as they will be better off in prison.

    “Tougher sentences and nastier prisons do not deter crime. In general crime (apart from “white collar’ crime) is committed by people who don’t plan ahead much, who don’t ponder consequences.”

    On the other hand people gain an appreciation of the sort of consequences that their actions will provoke and they will have learned that they live in an environment where the state will do them no harm.

  130. Phil 131

    Tougher sentences… do not deter crime

    Let me type this slowly, so you can keep up:

    When… someone… is… in… prison,… they… are… not… out… on… the… street… committing… other… crimes.

    In order for your claim to be true, you have to believe that other criminals commit more crime, in order to keep up the averages.

  131. randal 132

    these natoinal business people will do anything except find jobs for these people. get of ya bums ya bums.

  132. bill brown 133

    When someone is in prison, it doesn’t stop other.. people.. out in the street committing crimes.

    Filling… prisons… with… people… who… have… nothing… to… lose… will… escalate… the… problem…

    Perhaps we should just hang ’em, cures problem, provides entertainment.

  133. I’ve been thinking about the porn/anti porn undercurrent in this thread for a bit and thought to share something with you.

    Let me start by stating that Farrar’s friendship with a known pornographer is very revealing and makes me dislike the little turd even more than I already did but that has nothing to do with actual porn but everything with the way porn seems to be perceived in this country.

    This is what I have gleaned so far from the previous discussion.

    To some of you, it seems, porn=rape.

    And some of you pointed out there are women who enjoy porn.

    And this gets a funny “male” response. Steve delegates those women to the freaky site of the sex spectrum and this is taken up by other males.

    What is telling is the total absence of women in the discussion.

    As you know I am from Holland, in fact I’m from big bad Amsterdam.
    The big bad super tolerant dope smoking, red light toting, gay, hetero porn capital of the world.

    I have been surrounded with “porn” in abundance my entire live and by the reasoning of some of you, rape should be a fixture in the live of Amsterdam women far in excess of anywhere else in the porn free world.

    But it isn’t. Does rape never happen in Amsterdam? Sure, but I have seen more rapes and more violent ones being committed here than in a comparable time frame in Amsterdam which like Auckland has more than a million inhabitants but unlike Auckland is build far denser and on perhaps 1/4 of its territory.

    There are only 4 million people in this country and in Holland on an area the size of Northland 17 million people have made their homes but contrary to what some of you assert Hollanders would be well and truly shocked with the behaviour of those policemen and their raping orgies.

    It would be totally incomprehensible to us that men in places of such delicate power would use that power to subdue and debase women like that, so clearly our exposure to abundant porn has not caused us to think that it is OK for women to be raped or debased, in fact there is less tolerance and exposure to the possibility of being raped.

    My whole live, from the tender young age of 14 until the time I left I have as a good Tulip is wont to do bicycled and or walked all over Amsterdam and when the time came that I could decide my own bedtime which was at the tender young age of 16 I did the same at any time of the night. In fact some of the hottest porn free haunts were right in the middle of the red light district and although I have certainly had my moments of fear it was never there and I have always been free and unharmed in my nightly exploits in that big bad city.

    (Yeez, I just remembered were I spend my first years. My bohemian artist parents had an apartment next to one of the most beautiful old houses on the oldest canal of Amsterdam, right in the middle of the red light district. In fact my pram came from one of the prostitutes next door. LOL. God see what you guys do to me? That way back down memory lane)

    In Amsterdam a group of students researching the function of porn, and whether porn was actually exploitative to women and they decided to do a test. The hypothesis? If porn was exploitative to women than women by and large should be massively turned off by watching it.

    They organised two groups. One male and one female. All volunteers but carefully screened to be of the most average middle class/ working class (Not a big distinction in Holland) background.

    One by one the members of these groups were exposed to hardcore porn.

    They measured the physical sexual response by attaching sensors to their genitals.

    After they had watched the movies they gave the participants a questionnaire.
    The questions were about what they thought of the movies, how they felt they reacted physically etc.

    The result was predictable. The man had mostly enjoyed them and the women rejected them as exploitation and suppression of women.

    The test revealed something very significant. Their physical reaction did not support their words. While the bodies of the men supported their statements (Hard to lie about a hard on really)
    it revealed that the bodies of the women betrayed their statements for without exception their bodies had exactly the same response to the hardcore video’s as the men. Their bodies were as much exited when they watched porn as the men.

    One can draw several conclusions from the test:

    Either the researchers had accidentally picked closet case masochists for all of their female subjects and the subjects were all lying or in denial,

    or all women secretly want to be raped (which I can assure we don’t) or,

    women feel compelled to deny and or lie about how they experience sex in general.

    What did become clear is that porn is perceived by both the female and the male body as sexually exiting but while men acknowledge that enjoyment women deny it.

    I have met several young kiwi men in the last couple of years and in conversations with them gleaned some of the current youth culture in this country. These were not exceptional kids, they were your average kiwi youngsters, trying to learn a trade and make sense of a confusing world. In fact I really like these kids.
    But talking to them about their male female relations proved very shocking to me.

    Without exception, while actively pursuing sex as much as they could these kids referred to sexually active young women as slags and hoes and in fact one kid thought all sexually active girls were skanky hoes.

    So while these kids acknowledged their own sexuality as totally normal they completely condemned the necessary reciprocal emotion in the other sex.

    In fact I bet you that lots of males have a secret stash of hardcore porn somewhere in the shed while they would be appalled if their wives had a similar stash hidden away in her crafts room.

    In light of the previous, I have to condemn Steve’s rejection of Farrar’s relationship with a pornographer because he reinforces the myth (as proven wrong by physical evidence) that porn is exploitative and I equally have to condemn his delegation of women who enjoy porn to the sexual fringe.

    Both are as sexist as Farrar’s relationship with said Pornographer because both Farrar and Steve use porn as a way of marginalising and denouncing female sexuality.

    Farrar by assorting with someone who films the human sex act ( in whatever setting of fantasy) in a country that by enlarge reject the normalcy of female sexuality and Steve for reinforcing the myth that women have to hide behind in order not to be thought of as slags or hoes and which inhibits them from enjoying their sexuality with or without the aid of porn.

    (not to mention that it disables both sexes to deal with each others sexuality as a bonding, intimate act with ample space to explore and enjoy.)

    One last note: This comment is not in defence of the porn industry which like many industries has it’s share of abuse and exploitation but also has its share of women making lots of money and enjoying a huge fan base while enjoying sex.

    And no, I have never been in active in the sex industry and I am probably an exception to the rule as I have never strayed from any monogamous relation I was in and the one I’m in now has lasted 21 years and going.

    I apologise for the length but I hope some of you will enjoy it anyway.

    Captcha: the Femina. Awesome. I felt the force as I was writing this. Guess the captcha thingy felt it too. LOL.

  134. Phil 135

    Bill,

    Continuing the theme:

    Crime… tends… to… be… recidivist…
    This is simple maths and physics – you can’t be committing a crime if you’re already in jail. I’ll accept that this sometimes doesn’t hold true, and should perhaps be modified to “You’re much less likely”.

    Suporting… longer… sentences… does… not… mean… you… always… want… to… throw… away… the… key.
    This isn’t a zero sum game, and like all law enforcement needs to include a variety of tools. To paint the argument as such (ie; you’re either for longer sentences, or for rehab, but never both) is deliberately misleading from you.

  135. Mike 136

    I think a major conducive factor to becoming a criminal is lack of hope about any reasonable possible alternative.

    I think people don’t really have much hope that they can get ahead any other way, and their expectations about how they should rightfully be living is still shaped by the rest of our society.

    Unlike in bangladesh where you consider yourself lucky if you don’t drown in the annual monsoons, and even luckier if you get some food some time, over here, you feel cheated and bitter if you don’t have a 42″ LCD TV.

    So there are 2 problems… 1, setting reasonable expectations (and I can’t see that changing, since the rest of us still want our TVs), and 2, having some hope of being able to get ahead.

    That’s where people need opportunities. Opportunities to make a decent crust, meet their expectations, and do something worth while. I don’t think even hardened crims want to think of themselves as bad people.

    In the end, I think many don’t realise is the people they hurt a huge amount is themselves. Damaging your self image can be a life-long hurt. It’s not like you’re ever going to see someone else looking back out of the mirror at you. If you grow to consider yourself a bad person, you’re in real trouble.

    They need to teach that lesson in schools – why it is important to not compromise yourself. Why you shouldn’t do things you consider bad. What happens to you if you do think you’re a bad person etc etc etc…

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