This Lawyer Reveals Why Israel's Gaza Onslaught Could Be Stopped By Genocide Case….
(It's not often we get to hear the rare voice of Jewish people born in Palestine before the creation of the state of Israel, who had to leave their homeland because they opposed the Zionist state.)
….both my parents were born in Palestine as it then was, and uh Israeli citizens, who um became very concerned about um what was happening in Israel as they were growing up in the 1950s. And then when following the sixth day war they were one of a relatively small number of Israelis who immediately opposed the fact of the occupation.
I'd just like to read you something that my father was a co-signatory to, with a very small number of Israelis, including a Palestinian citizen of Israel.
This is what they said in a declaration that was published by Haaretz newspaper. Obviously I'm reading you an English translation of the Hebrew, this was on the 22nd of September 1967.
[deleted]
[please stop spamming TS with long copypasta. We want people’s own ideas, with links and targeted quotes as back up or further explanation. This is not a place to just dump what you are reading and expect others to read it too. I see you have written a longer post in your own words, that’s good stuff.
From now on, you are restricted to 3 paragraphs max of copy and paste in any comment. Please use this wisely and don’t abuse the privilege. I would also strongly recommend less overall copypasta comments – weka]
A very accurate perception as to the dilemma facing Israel in 1967, occupation required empowering locals in Gaza and WB to govern themselves, whether they chose to declare a state, or not.
That would have counter-acted the formation of the PLO by the Arab League (not recognising the state of Israel) in 1964 with someone Lebanese as its first chairman.
In 1974 ʿArafāt advocated limiting PLO activity to direct attacks against Israel, and the Arab community recognized the PLO as the sole legitimate representative of all Palestinians. It was admitted to the Arab League in 1976
The absence of any policy led not just to the Egyptian and Syrian attack in 1973, but the formation of Likud in 1977 (with a policy of peace with Egypt, the invasion to the north against the PLO in Lebanon and settlements in the occupied territories). And its current leader BN has always opposed the Oslo Accord process to a two state peace (a legacy of the Labour era of rule which ended in 2001).
Israel says that they will appear before the ICJ to defend themselves from South Africa's charge of committing genocide. This is exactly analogous of the Russian Federation's response to the case taken against them in the ICJ by Ukraine. Only two countries, Malaysia and Turkey, have filed submissions to the ICJ as 'Intervening States' Compare this to the 32 'Intervening States' including New Zealand that gave their country's submissions to the ICJ in the case of Ukraine vs. Russia
Ukraine filed a case with the ICJ that Russia had falsely claimed that Ukraine had committed the crime of genocide.
The Russian Federation sent a team of lawyers to defend Russia's position that Ukraine had committed genocide against ethnic Russians and Russian speakers in the Donbas. An accusation that Ukraine strongly denied.
The proceedings of the ICJ are live streamed. I found it worthwhile to review these video recordings of the Ukraine vs. Russia case before the International Court of Justice in the Hague, in the historic and grandly named 'Peace Palace'.
I recommend anyone interested in how the case of South Africa vs. Israel will play out to watch the recording of the live stream of the Ukraine vs. Russia case.
The UN's top court in The Hague, Netherlands began five days of hearings, where representatives of Russia and Ukraine clashed over President Vladimir Putin's allegations of genocide in eastern Ukraine, as a pretext for the "special military operation" to “demilitarize and denazify Ukraine”
From the live stream of the hearing in the Peace Palace, Ukraine vs. the Russian Federation
The livestream of the opening address by the presiding ICJ President, Joan E. Donoghue begins @0:00 minutes
The court meets today and will meet in the coming days to hear the oral ligaments of the parties on preliminary objections raised by the respondent in the case concerning allegations of genocide under the convention on the prevention and Punishment of the crime of genocide.
Ukraine versus Russian Federation 32 states intervening as well as the oral observations of the intervening states with respect to the subject matter of their interventions.
This morning the court will hear the first round of oral argument of the Russian Federation…..
I can highly recommend watching the recording of these proceedings
After watching the live stream of Ukraine vs. the Russian Federation, I am of the opinion that the two cases. Ukraine vs. Russia, and South Africa vs. Israel, are apposite, but opposite. These two cases are apposite in that they are mirror opposite images of each other.
The main difference between the two cases being US allies like New Zealand will not be making legal submissions as intervening states party to the genocide convention in the case of South Africa vs. Israel, as they did in the case of Ukraine vs. Russia.
Our parliamentary journalists and opposition MPs need to be asking the Minister of Foreign Affairs to explain the reason why New Zealand intervened in one case and not the other.
To them I would say: 'If you ever wondered what you would have done during the Holocaust, you are doing it now.'
New Zealand was at war with Germany during the holocaust.
It is for the collective security of nation states from aggression.
It is for a two state peace process to realise the outcome intended in 1947, despite the war in 1948.
Given the action of Oct 7 and the right of nations to self-defence (including defeat of the military that attacked them), Israel is accountable for its "war-time" actions. Otherwise for the occupation of the West Bank, which Hamas might claim was its provocation (given Gaza was more under blockade than occupation itself).
INTERNATIONAL COURT OF JUSTICE
—H———————————————————-
ALLEGATIONS OF GENOCIDE UNDER THE
CONVENTION ON THE PREVENTION AND PUNISHMENT OF THE CRIME OF GENOCIDE
(Ukraine v Russian Federation, 32 States Intervening)
WRITTEN OBSERVATIONS OF THE GOVERNMENT OF NEW ZEALAND
(PRELIMINARY OBJECTIONS)
4JULY2023
…..New Zealand intervenes in its capacity as a Contracting Party to the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide 1948 ("the Convention").2
It does so in response to the gravity of the circumstances giving rise to this case, its implications for the maintenance of international law, and its impact on the
obligations shared by all parties to the Convention.
New Zealand Ministry of Foreign Affairs, (MFAT), Statements and speeches: 20 September 2023
Delivered by Andrew Williams, Chief International Legal Adviser (acting), 20 September 2023
1. Madam President, members of the Court, it is an honour to appear before you today and to present New Zealand’s submissions in these critical proceedings.
2. New Zealand has chosen to intervene in these proceedings because we consider that the issues in this case go to the very heart of the international rule of law and the protection of this Court’s role in the peaceful settlement of disputes.
Support for the submissions of Ukraine and intervening States
3. Madam President, I do not intend to repeat every point put forward in New Zealand’s Written Observations. Nor will I rehearse the arguments made by Ukraine and the intervening States in their written and oral submissions. We broadly support the points they have made.
In my opinion, it would be the height of hypocrisy, and an international embarrassment, if New Zealand did not repeat our nation's intervention, in its capacity as a Contracting Party to the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide 1948
Government urged to join genocide case against Israel
Justin Wong
January 4, 2024
A group of the country’s legal experts, including two King Counsels and two emeritus legal professors, are urging the Government to join South Africa’s case that Israel is committing genocide in Gaza at the International Court of Justice (ICJ).
Ten lawyers and academics, including leading human rights lawyer Frances Joychild KC, as well as Auckland University law professor emeriti David V Williams and Jane Kelsey, penned the open letter on Friday to Prime Minister Christopher Luxon, Foreign Minister Winston Peters, Attorney-General Judith Collins and Justice Minister Paul Goldsmith…..
That is precisely what they are – anti-science. They are extremely dangerous and there needs to be a concerted international effort to curb their increasing influence. Their anti-mandate/anti mask stance is just a manifestation of their denial of scientific evaluation and modelling.
The best equivalent are the flat earthers of a couple or more centuries ago. People who flatly denied the Earth was round and executed people for holding 'scientific' views based on actual evidence.
Weka….it was me who suggested "rebels" and "they" are the rag-tag mass of people with disparate aims/objectives who camped and demonstrated on the lawn outside parliament using covid as their excuse.
agree that they are disparate group. Not sure it's entirely about the parliament protest but also agree that the Freedom protest gave people a focus for a wider range of grievances. It certainly brought things to a head.
Much respect for weka and the work she puts into this site, but disagree with her views on this subject. That rag-tag mass of disparate individuals who behaved so badly during the parliament protest were indeed who I was referring to. I thought it was obvious. I would add the individuals from NZ and off-shore who supported and enabled (financially and otherwise) their activities.
since you brought up anti-sciencism, and referenced Scientific American, there's this to consider about accusations of being anti-science.
Scientific American takes a pro-gender identity ideology position. It publishes articles that say there are more than two sexes in humans, or that sex isn't binary.
This is SA's editor in chief being anti-science on twitter.
A community note (where registered people can add notes correcting incorrect tweets), was attached to that tweet
White-throated sparrows have 2 sexes with 4 unique chromosome combinations. There are still just 2 sexes that produce either sperm or eggs. The female types are the white-striped females and the tan-striped females. The male birds are white-striped males and tan striped males. audubon.org/news/the-fasci…
Colin Wright, evolutionary biologist, also replied,
So if you want to claim that every covid dissident is anti-scientific, then by your argument I can claim that every person who isn't gender critical is anti-scientific, which means you (and Robert) are anti-scientific. See how that works?
The point here is to have political terms that aren't pejorative so we can get past the name calling and superficial political analysis and really get to grips with the issues. I agree that something needs to be done, but I don't think what we need can be achieved by ostrasisation and ridicule.
Does the group you're trying to label include those who fear Agenda 21? Those who donated money to Liz Gunn's campaign and for the whistleblower's legal defence? Those who subscribe to Sue Grey's channel?
Are they the people who wanted to string "Jabcinda" up because she's a witch?
Are there "Covid dissidents" who aren't also conspiracy theorists?
If they opposed the Governments authoritarian behaviour around mask-wearing, mandates and vaccination programmes, they surely held views that the authorities were conspiring against the people. Those who I spoke to over that time certainly do. There will be some (relatively few) who, for reasons of health etc. were opposed but how many of those didn't end up extrapolating bad intent by the Government? Genuine question.
Of course there are covid dissidents who don't believe in conspiracy theories.
It doesn't require a conspiracy theory to think there were problems with the mandates. Or to feel uncomfortable with a new vaccine.
I think your surety here speaks about your own politics and positions rather than being about the wide range of people with a wide range of beliefs that we are talking about.
I know, personally, several people who were firmly anti-mandate and personally anti-Covid vaccination.
Some of them chose to be vaccinated because of Covid risk to elderly family members; some of them felt coerced into being vaccinated by the government mandates (and were very angry about this). Some of them held by their principles, and refused Covid vaccination, and weathered the storm of public disapproval and exclusion (these were even more angry)
[Please note the word 'felt' above, I have no interest in relitigating whether or not the Government mandates actually amounted to forced vaccination]
None of them are 'anti-science' in general (no conspiracy theories in other areas). And, indeed, a smattering of 'science' made them more concerned over a novel (mRNA) and untested vaccine (untested, as in no longitudinal studies). And within living memory we have instances of 'science' recommending medical treatments which caused major issues (thalidomide).
Some of them felt coerced into being vaccinated by the government mandates (and were very angry about this).
The mandates worked then. As far as I know the concept was to encourage (you said coerce) people to get vaccinated for their own health and for the health those around them, and to reduce the burden on the health system.
encourage is a kind of weasel word the right like to use. Let's encourage beneficiaries back to work by forcing them to live in poverty, kind of thing.
The mandates were what they said on the label. People were required to vaccinate or lose their jobs. That wasn't encouragement, it was a mandate.
Part of the damage done by the mandates was the refusal of some to acknowledge the damage that was being done. The comms and social commentary added to that. The left taking an ostracise and ridicule approach is part of why we have a right wing government currently.
It hard to know how many more vulnerable people's lives would have been lost were it not for mandates. Perhaps someone will model it if they haven’t already.
If some people didn't have to get vaccinated, they simply wouldn't do it (those people more concerned with the self rather than the many, which is a thing peculiar to the right wing) and we would have had less vaccine coverage.
yes, the point of the mandate was in part to coerce vaccine hesitant people into getting vaccinated. It wasn't encouragement, it was mandatory if one wanted to keep a certain job.
I wouldn't call myself a covid dissident, but I'm sure there are some who would give me that label. For instance when I have talked about the problems with the vaccine mandate. I'm also vaccine hesitant (although double vaxxed against covid). None of my views or beliefs on that requires belief in a conspiracy theory.
I value dissent as a cultural practice very highly, and probably have a higher tolerance for it than many.
Also, if I said that there is an overarching system, run by wealthy and powerful people, that operates to control all the money in the world for the benefit of rich people and it is killing the planet, is that a conspiracy theory? Or it is just a plain language sentence about late stage neoliberal capitalism?
Besides, I'm willing to bet that you hold some beliefs that the science geeks here would find anti-scientific. Me too. We've all got our weird ideas. I find it bizarre that there are still people who think alternative medicine is the devil's work. Or that putting salmon genes in strawberries is a good idea. But here we are.
My own theory is that many of the covid dissidents and wider counter culture around alt health have solid intuitive understandings of something being wrong, but they don't have the science literacy or cultural concepts to parse that into something meaningful to wider society. They are as susceptible to power and control culture as the rest of us. And because they were already both fairly libertarian (or tactically libertarian as Psycho Milt pointed out on twitter) and used to being counter culture, they both care and don't care about being ostracised. Ostracisation isn't working other than to motivate them to organise.
I think they also have some seriously problems thinking critically, and other issues. But that's not all they are.
I think Labour did an incredible job during an unprecedented and very difficult time. I also think they made some mistakes. Much of that I put down to overload, but I also think some of it was simply ideological (Ardern's two NZs interview is an example).
Most of the cooker/dissidentsI have engaged with on the issue have settled on the latter. Is this not the general case? Happy to hear otherwise.
Again, I think this reflects your experience as much as anything. There are certainly lots of people down the rabbit hole. But not all people that would get called cooker are that. Maybe you need to get out more? 😉 By which I mean, the people that engage in the ostracise and ridicule strategy have boxed themselves into a corner, they see what they see.
Whereas the people I know who are covid dissidents are for the most part ordinary people with some strange ideas who take part in my community just like everyone else and contribute a great deal. Some of them are so far down the rabbit hole it's nearly impossible to talk with them, some of them just think the government fucked up on things like the mandates and the vaccine programme. I have friends who are the latter, but who were relatively ok with the lockdowns because of their lifestyle. I know others who think the lockdowns were heinous.
In all of that I still see them as humans first. What I observe about the use of the word cooker is that it's starting to move towards dehumanisation. The people all get lumped togethers, they're a hive mind, and they're all terrible. See Joe90's comments blaming them for LC when it's actually the government and health authorities and MSM that are letting this tragedy unfold.
Are you really a Covid-dissident?
No, as I said, I am not. But I remember the vaccine convos here in the first few years of the pandemic, and how difficult it was to talk about my concerns about the vaccines being developed, as someone with a long term illness and not knowing how it might impact on me (and others). It wasn't a supportive environment (fair enough, it's a political blog), but it was a feature that people's beliefs were driving their politics across the board.
Reactions to and perceptions of details of those interviews are pivotal to the discussion, imo.
I still reel/marvel at the different takes on Jacinda's words (spoiler: I believe cookers received Jacinda's words wrongly and have tried many times to bring this issue to (some of their) attentions. Much hatred was spawned from those moments, and I attribute the negative responses to the cookers, or whatever lable you care to give those folk.
You make a good point, Robert. My textbook example would be from one of the most empathetic speeches in Parliament, in my opinion, by Michael Wood, which was received by some in such a way that it caused much bad blood [no pun intended].
Thanks, Incognito and yes, you are, not unexpectedly, on point with your comment. I don't expect a fruitful discussion will in fact eventuate, but at least I'm encouraged to find that others (you, at least), are aware of this situation.
Today's discussion around differentiating and assigning lables to the lively players in the Covid Event has been really interesting, imo, though there have been no definite lines drawn, rules set, as I expected. That there weren't is not a reason to despair about the process of debate; it's natural, imo.
I can see weka’s point(s) and I have considerable sympathy for it. It was brave to attempt initiating a discussion around the use/over-use/mis-use/abuse of the work “cooker”. However, it was entirely predictable that it would go in many different directions given the background context akin Pandora’s Box (or the proverbial can of worms).
My take-home message for today would be to avoid such loaded (and often meaningless, ironically) terms and/or try articulating clearly and specifically what one means (aka say what you mean). This won’t avoid all confusion and misinterpretation but it might go some way in alleviating the worst ones.
The additional problem is that the ‘baggage’ from one discussion thread tends to follow to other threads like a bad on-line review that’s impossible to shake off. People build some kind of (assumed) persona/avatar of themselves but also of others and they (we) strengthen & confirm these images in & through our future interactions here on TS. And so on and so forth.
I thought the conversation today was interesting too, and it was good to see people hashing things out. Having a conversation about the two NZ interview etc would be great, I can’t see why that can’t be a good debate 🙂
Or you could call us "widely read"…ie don't blindly accept the pap pumped out by mainstream media.
Or perhaps, since we find and reference peer reviewed scientific papers that show data that proves that despite the "safe and effective" narrative the mRNA products were nether, you could call us "not as gullible as the mainstream".
Or perhaps you could call us "ban-hammer" bait since we cop a blow for suggesting that the mRNA shots were not such a good idea risk/benefit wise for the Young People. As was advised by the government of the day's very own Covid Vaccine Advisory Group. As was revealed via an OIA a while back. Not that the true lefties on TS would have mentioned it.
Or you could simply call us "Legends". I haven't spoken to a single person who regretted declining the Pfizer product. (And no…we are not dead.) I've spoken to plenty who took it and have vowed never again.
Of course the Good, True Lefties on TS would have to be brave and step outside their echo chamber to meet any of them. Or the regretful simply wouldn't risk the rabid opprobrium by telling their true thoughts on the matter.
[1. you’re flaming. 2. I looked at the mod notes (front and back end) for the past three years and what I see is you repeatedly being put into premod and/or banned for failing to present evidence when asked by a mod, or failing to respond to mod requests. 3. you also tend to disappear when the mods ask for a response.
All three of those are consistent patterns of behaviour that have taken up a lot of moderator time on TS.
I can also see that moderators put a lot of time into trying to get your to change the patterns of behaviour and the last mod notes in the backend were basically about us giving up because it’s clear you had no intention of changing.
You are back from a very long ban and straight back into the flaming, and misrepresenting moderation. Neither of those are tenable here.
I’m not willing to use my time trying to get you to change your behaviour, nor wait around for you to respond.
I really wish you would sort this out in yourself, because you have a much longer history of bringing good debate to TS. Please give this some thought on your next ban. 6 months – weka]
Those vulnerable to any infection because of poor immunity (in some part age related) were dependent on being in a country with a successful border bubble, or privilege of a secure personal bubble – in part created by others having up to 6 months immunity by vaccine.
Of course those who survived have no regrets about not taking the vaccine and those who did, now only threatened by a milder omicron and with the health system able to cope (and with anti-virals etc), wonder if they had to vaccinated to be safe.
That is because we vaccinated before ending the bubble, and then had a vaccine (for up to 6 months prevention from infection from delta) but then got hit with the transition to the more infectious but less deadly omicron.
That those in good health wonder at the need for boosters on and on, when it does not prevent infection and the illness is milder, does not make a case for not being vaccinated before this was known and some safeguard before ending the border bubble was required.
Yes Robert, I was and still am firmly against the mandates. They did more harm than good if you look at the bigger picture. For very little extra gain in vaccine coverage we've managed to alienate a significantly large group of people and it will take years to repair the damage to society.
Mandates are a big reason we have our curent govt as the dissafected vote swung in behind Winston.
Id argue the damage we're going to see over the next 3 years is a direct result of Jacinda Arden going back on her word and introducing the mandates.
The last three on that list are who I think of when the term 'cookers' is used.
So maybe it is a perfectly good term, just is being misused to include #1 on the list.
It's also being used to include anyone who dissents from the the mainstream view on the pandemic whether they hold problematic views or not.
I don't think there is any coming back from that misuse, the term is now solidly a pejorative.
Cooker is an Australian idiom used as an othering word. It doesn't have the kind of history that Nazi does. Not terribly surprising, but I am seeing a number of lefties in this conversation wanting to reinforce their prejudices.
The problem I have is that cooker is probably in breach of the site Policy in the way it gets used here,
What we’re not prepared to accept are pointless personal attacks, or tone or language that has the effect of excluding others. We are intolerant of people starting or continuing flamewars where there is little discussion or debate.
true, but from a mod pov, it’s not about how you feel about the word, it’s about how the word gets used in conversations in the wider political context.
For instance, if someone decided that the word slag was mild but used it to talk about women in pejorative ways, I would moderate irrespective of the user’s feelings about the word.
During the 2023 election, NZ Loyal received 1.20% of the party vote (34,456 votes), and won no electorates, so did not enter parliament. Gunn had claimed during the campaign that her NZ Loyal party would win 2 million votes. In response to the preliminary results, Gunn stated that New Zealand was being ruled by a "criminal cabal and at the very least, utter bullies." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liz_Gunn#2023_general_election
I don't like bullies, but Gunn's anti-vaccination activism is not for me.
the problem with conspiracy theorist as a term is that not all covid dissidents believe in conspiracy theories. See Belladonna’s comment below.
I think covid conspiracy theorists are a subset of covid dissidents, but perhaps it’s more a Venn diagram with overlaps.
Gunn is fascinating because she’s obviously disconnected from reality in important ways without being classically mentally ill. She’s also probably dangerous. Will be interesting to see what she does over this term.
My own view is that while I think people like her need to be addressed directly, I think that on its own is insufficient, and we also need to build bridges with the much larger group of people that have been or are being radicalised to that culture. Literally none of the lefties who favour ostracisation and ridicule as an approach have explained how that would work and what the endgame is.
Red Logix once referred to me as a trollop. He was trying to make a play on the word, but obviously thought the joke was ok. The feminists and some leftie men in the room were unimpressed and took him to task. This is what I mean about it not being about the feelings of the person using the word when there is a wider political context.
I don’t think cooker is the same as slag, but I still think it’s sufficiently problematic in ways you might not be appreciating.
The trollope comment, back in the days when the debate was more personalised,
Pejoratives are generally inflammatory to the people they are about/directed at. Does it matter if its only covid dissidents who are upset about the word?
I’ve been increasingly uncomfortable about how the word is used and almost never use it now myself. The conversation today has shown that a number of people here who use the word, think of it as a pejorative. I also asked on twitter, and likewise, there were those who understood and those who came up alternatives such as ‘fuckwits’. Do you really think it’s ok to use a term that people consider a synonym of fuckwit?
I remember a time when many lefties used the term terf, unaware that it was also associated with the worst misogyny many of us have seen online. Gender critical feminists knew about it though.
In the end I had to moderate the use of the word on TS, because the leftie liberals were committed to their ignorance about how the word was used and its impact. Or maybe they knew and didn’t care.
Cookers not a great word, in Aussie it gets used to describe people that have signifcant mental health issues (bipolar etc) it does way more harm than good and honestly beneath you.
the problem with conspiracy theorist as a term is that not all covid dissidents believe in conspiracy theories.
Yes, including Venn diagrams – was suggesting 'Conspiracy theorists' as a less derogatory alternative to 'cookers', on the basis of my current understanding of this particular meaning of 'cookers'.
Cooker – a derogatory term for conspiracy theorist; according to the National Dictionary Centre, "a derogatory term for a person involved in protests against vaccine mandates, lockdowns and a range of other issues perceived to be infringing on personal freedom". Emerging during the COVID-19 pandemic in Australia, the word made the shortlist for "Word of the Year" in 2022. The term is also loosely associated with the far right. An explanation of the term given by an Australian in answer to a question on Twitter is that "It refers to soneone(sic) whose brain has been cooked by overexposure to conspiracy theories and unhinged online rhetoric"
Anyway, this convo has left me behind. I too like Francesca's “Covid dissidents” @5.1, although since Covid dissidemts/dissenters are typically opposed to one or more aspects of the pandemic response, maybe consider 'pandemic response-dissidents'.
That dictionary def is broader, and that’s what I observe. As explained, there are people who oppose government pandemic response who don’t believe in conspiracy theories about covid.
"I remember a time when many lefties used the term terf, unaware that it was also associated with the worst misogyny many of us have seen online. "
But is "cooker"" associated with the worst (anything) many of us have seen online. "
Nope.
Not fair to conflate the 2 terms.
That said, I'm not going to die in a ditch for "cooker", though you might be assuming that I would. I could hardly care less. Call them dingbats, or crack-pots, if you want to. I thought "cookers" was kinda cool 🙂
I understand that there are people who oppose government pandemic response who don’t believe in conspiracy theories about the Covid-19 pandemic, for instance some of those opposed to vaccine mandates or MIQ.
"Gunn is fascinating because she’s obviously disconnected from reality in important ways without being classically mentally ill. She’s also probably dangerous."
"Gunnites"?
(Those who align with Liz's thinking?)
That'd be a sub-group but a definite measure; you could ask, "Do/did you support Liz Gunn's New Zealand Loyal parties pronouncements 🙂
My understanding is that the pejorative form of the word 'cooked' is associated with meth, as in 'cooking' meth. The implication is the target of the pejorative is impaired by drug use. It's use is far wider than applying to covid (I was called a 'cooker' for supporting wider tree protections in Auckland); it's become a lazy go-to for people who prefer labelling people than understanding or discussing their point of view.
dunno. I guess it depends on what you mean by label 😉
Terms are useful for shorthand. I use leftie a lot despite it having quite the range of meanings. Language is about communication, and the goal here is to look at whether certain language is used and understood as intended, and whether that's useful or not.
Back in those days anyone who questioned the govt response, or even possible quibbles about Pfizers trials (as published by the BMJ)were absolutely pilloried and mocked .
I myself noticed a kind of patriotic fervor in myself,….sacrificing for the common good !….buying the Ashley tea towel…privately judging others.."no way is that a bubble!!"
that I'm not now all that happy about.
At the time children had very little risk, they were to have the vaccine to protect their grannies.
But was that justified?re the fact that transmission wasn't blocked by the vaccine and generally children weren't affected badly enough by the virus to develop full blown symptoms
Yes there was a tiny risk we were all made aware of
A very few young children died of covid.
But when people died of vaccine related myocarditis those deaths were valued differently
In that climate of obedience to the science there was a very real struggle to have vaccine associated injury recognized and treated. Thank goodness for those people who did go against the current and speak up
A lot of this seems like how people behaved rather than any official insights (which were backed by evidence). In particular Children under 12 were never expected to get vaccinated and the health departments message indicated the risk of unvaccinated under 12s being severely effected by covid was thought extremely small. I also never saw any official suggestion that transmission was blocked by the vaccine. The suggestion was that the severity of infection would be limited by the vaccine making people less infectious, but officially nothing stronger was ever presented (or tested in trials).
I also was well aware of the few vaccine related myocarditis deaths as these were reported in NZ. It shouldn't be a trade off, buy these would likely have been treated by those people with symptoms after vaccine seeking medical advice. The 'advice' presented by the anti-vaccine groups was not to be aware of the risks but instead to be exposed to the virus unvaccinated, and this always carried higher risk of myocarditis than vaccination.
Those at most risk of myocarditis from the vaccine were younger males from 12 to 17
Those at most risk of myocarditis from covid infection were males over 50.
One group is not the same as the other
None of us were forced to take the vaccine but there was a very strong expectation in the public messaging that we would be selfish and negligent leading to our grannies deaths if we
didnt
Overall
I have no regrets at being fully vaccinated, but I did have some qualms about the messaging
"I gathered that those at risk of myocarditis were also the group unlikely to suffer severe effects from covid ."
I don't think this is relevant (and I assume you mean younger males are at higher risk of this adverse vaccine effect?). As far as I am aware the mechanism for myocarditis is the same in both the vaccine and via infection. This means its a question of risk trade off. All the studies demonstrated reduced risk of adverse effects from covid infection after vaccination in all age cohorts. Even in this age cohort its trading off accepting a larger risk for a significantly smaller risk (which could also be mitigated by decent vaccination follow up).
The only thing I do think that the health department could have done better was to recognise that this vaccine needed to be injected muscularly, and that the standard practice in NZ didn't check that the injection had not directly penetrated a blood vessel (this check can discomfort the patient). The procedure for administration should have been part of the vaccinator training as soon as this was understood and this may have significantly reduced (maybe eliminated) this risk.
"The govt was strongly encouraging parents to get their children vaccinated."
Not U12s as far as I observed. There was a track on the vaccination rate, but every message I saw was very clear that U12s didn't need to be vaccinated for participation in any kind of activity.
Those most at risk of myocarditis from the covid vaccine were young men between 12 and 17.
Those most at risk from myocarditis from covid infection were older men after the age of 50
And the govt was strongly encouraging parents to get their 5-11 year old children vaccinated
“The government is strongly encouraging parents to have their children vaccinated against COVID-19, but I want to be clear that this is a choice for parents. The Government has no intention of making COVID-19 vaccinations mandatory for anyone in this age group,” Chris Hipkins said.
The inference was that younger people should be vaccinated to save their grannies .As younger people were less inclined to have severe covid and therefore less inclined to be shedding, the connection between getting vaccinated and saving granny wasn't quite correct .But it served a purpose.
I don't think is quite true. With earlier variants, vaccination helped prevent transmission.
Also, most vaccination works because populations do it. It is inherently an act of solidarity as well as personal protection. The narrative that said we shouldn't vaccinate children to save old people because children shouldn't be expected to help old people by personal sacrifice, is odd to me. But then I think old people are worth saving and I see the benefits to children of both having old people around and of being involved in protecting them. Likewise helping people with health disabilities.
I think the lockdowns did more to prevent transmission .Transmission was never tested for in the vaccine ,but I do remember the puzzlement when people started getting covid two or more times after the vaccine ,.There was uncertainty around it, as in , is this residual from the first infection?Why is this happening ?
It was a setback.Like a lot of things, we were learning as we went, there were no certainties, as in the masking.First absolutely not required, then required in all public places.It took a while before we realised it was transmitted aerially.
I suggest we still have a long way to go.Science is not fixed or settled, we test what we think we know all the time.
I was thinking about this recently too, about how much we didn't know at the start and having to err on the side of caution. People leaving their delivered groceries to sit for three days, hospital staff doing major cleanse routines before going into their home they shared with vulnerable people. It was full on and understandable. Reasonable imo too.
I think there was a lot of confusion and poor comms around different kinds of vaccinations. Probably the health bods assumed people knew that some vaccines don't prevent all instances of a disease, but we really needed clear and persistent explanations about that and we just didn't get them.
Yes lock down was a big part of it. And masks and hygiene etc. We needed all the things. That too was hard for some to get their head around at the time.
The lockdowns were effective at the time, but only with the earlier variants. NZ (and Australia) was fortunate in being able to effectively close its borders and put all entries through quarantine. The same approach would simply not have worked in places like the UK however as they are more connected and by the time this was operational you would have been years of constant lockdowns away from allowing free movement in any country where that was tried. NZ started lockdowns with still a reasonably small number of cases in NZ which is why you could see they had a limited time frame.
By the time NZ was vaccinating delta variant was arriving and due to its higher infection rate NZ quarantine was becoming no longer effective. Omicron was worse again and there was probably a case per day getting through quarantine and infecting people after arriving into NZ.
Will have a think, although a term is still risking implying a hive mind. As I have said before, in regards to those who gathered on Parliament grounds, there was diversity in the motivations for the congregation.
quite. We have the same problem with terms like left and liberal. I don't think that is insurmountable, it's that we just need to develop language for a new political dynamic and cohorts that have arisen.
Are those from the "cooker" party 🙂 seeking recognition of that commonality, do you think? Is there anything you can point-to that would illustrate that?
Maybe your Nana could have shown you what question marks mean.I understood GSays question and agree with him.I would answer his question with the word yes
The question as I read it was , and this is a paraphrase "Surely its more useful to find common ground ?" GSays not laying down the law, gently enquiring
"Surely" makes it a statement, not a question, but I know what you've taken from the comment, so…it's, imo, wiser to keep your enemies close 🙂 Maintaining lines of communication and a friendly atmosphere is sensible. My question is: are those-who-are-sometimes-referred-to-as-cookers acting in that way? Or are they excluding themselves by communicating at closed meetings, on less-used social media sites etc?
Well I thought I already had by suggesting covid dissidents
And I wouldn’t presume to have any clue about how such a varied group communicates
It would be just as varied as their rationales
I know 3 ,ones was in full p addiction (14 months clean now wohooo) 1 is full libertarian and ones a fear full alternative lovey, hard to get one name for them in all honesty.
SURD – Self-obsessed U-[your choice of adjective] Rationality Denier.
Kind of apt, seeing that "surd" is another term in maths for an irrational number (i.e. one which can't be expressed as a ratio of two whole numbers, such as √5). Lends itself to such expansions as ab-surd, etc.
(If you include the "O" as well from "obsessed" you get SOURD – also rather fitting, as it's French for deaf.)
Please don't use that word as an insult. I am Deaf myself and I do not appreciate that word being used to insult other people whether it is in French or English, thanks.
Forecasted costs associated with long covid (PASC) are astronomical and a study showed that vaccination and multiple boosters dramatically lower the risk of long covid (PASC).
Those actively opposing measures that mitigate the impact of covid on the community deserve every pejorative coming their way.
Those actively opposing measures that mitigate the impact of covid on the community deserve every pejorative coming their way.
Except that all of the restrictive measures (apart from facemasks in A&E wards in hospitals) – have been removed. There is no requirement for vaccination, for masking, for social distancing, for limits on gatherings, or any of the other 'Covid restrictions' which happened in 2020 & 2021.
All of those people who resisted those measures (whether passively or actively) then, are indistinguishable from the rest of 'the community', now. They haven't changed their behaviour, we have.
[Yes, Yes, I know there are some people who still mask in public – less than 1 in 500 from my observation – they are the outliers, now]
I have had 6 covid vacs now Bella…oddly few of the pro vaccine people I know have kept up with their vaccines despite knowing full well they should have.
All of those people who resisted those measures (whether passively or actively) then, are indistinguishable from the rest of 'the community', now. They haven't changed their behaviour, we have.
Do we know their behaviour hasn't changed? Next time perhaps they will be a little more socially conscious knowing their predicted mass deaths and birth anomalies from the mRNA vaccine haven't eventuated.
My behaviour has changed. I'd not had a flu vaccine until before last winter when I did the double (flu and Covid). I'll probably do this from now on but would have been unlikely to were it not for the pandemic.
"Next time perhaps they will be a little more socially conscious knowing their predicted mass deaths and birth anomalies from the mRNA vaccine haven't eventuated."
Ha! Those who predicted that, believe it more than ever before, thanks to their gullibility, their crack-pot social media feeds and the "obvious cover-up" of "their" whistleblower, doncha know!
"I know there are some people who still mask in public"
Me, for one. And all vaxxes up to date. When you've a disabled partner with at least two co-morbidities, you can't afford to chance it. I've only recently stopped keeping my going-out clothes separate from my indoor ones. But I still sanitise on entering any store, and wash and sanitise after coming home.
Suppose we're all outliers in one way or another, desperately wanting to fit in.
If it's any comfort, I've also kept my and my elderly father's and step-father's vaccinations against Covid-19 current, and mask up in crowded indoor spaces such as supermarkets and theatres.
So, we can be outliers taking health precautions together. Those precautions really aren't that much of an inconvenience, and have been effective – so far.
Well Joe , you better come to this neck of the woods and protest.Covid is absolutely rampant in the area, no one wears masks, there is no campaign up and running for people to keep their vaccines up to date, super spreader events go unrestricted and people are still getting sick and dying of covid
The problem is that the 'them' are not a homogenous group. Their views are often nuanced, and in some cases are worthy of consideration.
The term 'dissident' has been suggested, but dissident generally means someone who opposes official policy. I would suggest that if you consider the totality of the official response towards Covid (including the lock downs and mandates) the 'them' may end up being a hell of a big group!
There are many forms of science denial from chemical to biological. They overlap in some places, but not others. It would be hard to find an all encompassing term to cover that sort of range.
The recently screened Breathless on TV1 was a potent reminder of the chaos in British hospitals when Covid was rampant three plus years ago. That same chaos never happened here due to necessary steps taken by Government and health experts.
However, I will never ever forget the then National opposition screaming "Open the Borders" almost on a daily basis. Only concerned about businesses struggling but no concern for people's health, or pressure on our hospitals. Just as cold and cynical as the last edict "keep smoking kiwis, we want your tobacco taxes".
Important reminder – health/MIQ workers, even our govt, were not out to 'get' us.
And, critically, they largely worked together, unlike in the UK, where the NHS and govt often worked against each other, particularly in the early stages of the pandemic.
cubed.
Just as concerning as the widespread infections and the almost unsustainable pressure on the health system was the apparent desire on the authorities' part to hide the true state of affairs and persecute anyone who dared to break the silence.
With very few temporary exceptions, we don’t ban words here on TS as such. We moderate on intentional behaviour that runs counter the site’s Policy and if/when this becomes pattern behaviour, we ban the commenter after one or more warnings depending on the severity of the behaviour.
The problem I have is that cooker is probably in breach of the site Policy in the way it gets used here,
What we’re not prepared to accept are pointless personal attacks, or tone or language that has the effect of excluding others. We are intolerant of people starting or continuing flamewars where there is little discussion or debate.
to reinforce what Incognito just said. I haven't said I would ban the word cooker. Like the word terf, it depends on how it is used. Atm it strongly appears that cooker is mostly used as a pejorative. My thinking rn is to limit its use because there are people who comment here who would find the language had the effect of excluding others. I can't see the rationale for letting people use it in the same way I wouldn't for lots of other words directed at commenters or potential commenters.
I have offered to take a look at the word woke, but instead of you doing the mahi to back up your concern, you seem to just want to sit on TS and yet again take pot shots at moderation. You have history of this and its tedious. I will now take it that your point about 'woke' wasn't a point about the word at all and will ignore your complaint.
someone uses the word cooker pejoratively, I ask them to stop, they either do, or they don't and they cop a ban. Usual process and pretty much what I did with terf.
You are missing the point. The use of certain words/language can be trigger points for moderation of intentionalbehaviour, especially when used in a repetitive habitual manner (i.e. over-used) although it then often tends to lose its original meaning (e.g. misused) and become ‘weaker’ bordering on meaningless and therefore useless (in/for robust debate). As always, it depends on the context and, as always, it depends on sound & fair judgement.
With written communication, as we do here on TS, it’s much harder to interpret meaning and intention than with in-person face-to-face interaction. Some people are more prone to jumping to (right/wrong) conclusions (e.g. if the shoe fits) than others are. Humans and human communication are fascinatingly beautiful and complex (awesome) and are always richer and more diverse than we can imagine (thankfully).
Not true sorry, I was banned for a year for the use of a word. So you may think what you wrote is how you behave and most of the time it is, but the reality is not so wrapped up in a nice little bow. I stand by what I said by the way. And have learnt all the banned words that their are on the standard. You all have fostered the best and most visceral type of censorship – self censorship.
A 6 month ban because you posted something potentially defamatory and thus put the site owners at legal risk, and then you doubled down and posted it again and had a go at the mods
Not quite being banned for the use of a word is it. I don't remember what the word was, but I'm willing to be it could be used on TS in other contexts and not be a problem.
What you were actually banned for was something else entirely.
actually I can see the original comment in the back end. You accused JK of money laundering for drug cartels. Maybe what you actually meant was that in his previous life in international banking he worked for organisations that turned a blind eye to whose money they were handling, but maybe not, maybe you really meant that FJK personally was knowingly laundering money for drug cartels. Which is defamatory and you can't post things like that on site without evidence.
You could have clarified all that at the time but you didn't.
The thing about TS is that there have been some bad moderations at times. But generally the only content we moderate on is legal risk stuff. The rest is all about behaviour: flaming, trolling, long copypast etc, but mostly wasting moderator time and attacking mods/authors. I don't know what is so hard to understand about this.
Key is a Tory cunt and needs to be called out for his shitfuckery, but no. Can't say that, someone will get offended.
to which I, who had moderated your defamatory comment, replied,
you can call him a Tory cunt (honestly held opinion). You can't make claims of fact about him that might end up with Lynn and Mike in court. Nothing to do with being offended, so fuck off with that bullshit lying about moderation. If you have a problem with the site policy take it up with Lynn and see how you get on.
Nope not that – it was how my expression of my opinion of the US VP which I got banned for a year for. An opinion I stand by, by the way.
Because when people kill your friends sons, you can forgive them – but still think of them as a specific type of scum.
[Again, you fail to back up your accusations with the necessary evidence such as a link to the comment that allegedly resulted in a one-year ban. Weka tried to find it, so I also tried and couldn’t find it either.
So, you have a few days to produce the evidence or I’ll ban you for one year and this time for real – Incognito]
My apologies mixed things up. This comment was just censored – it did not get me a ban. Happened around the same time as the 6 month ban (mentioned above by weka) which I thought was a year.
Please do yourself (!) and me a favour and research the difference between censorship and moderation. I’m fed up with accusations of censorship here and will take a hard line from now onwards with anybody who’s stupid enough to go there.
FYI, and a repeat of what I said before in this thread, we moderate mostly on behaviour and particularly patterns of behaviour that run counter to this site’s Policy. The most extreme moderation tool is banning and as such, we ban for behaviour and rarely for words/language only.
Some content might be banned too, e.g., when it is harmful (and we have a low tolerance for violence in any form), defamatory, or puts the site at legal risk and these could be considered as censorship, especially when we also delete the offending parts. However, ideas or ideologies are not banned by default unless it’s the ‘ideology’ of trolling, astroturfing, and/or DP.
Let’s draw a line under this and I hope I will never have to moderate you for this again.
Didn't they campaign on road toll up (higher speed limits), smoking deaths up (we all know about their daft smoking policy), Maori deaths up (Maori Health Authority) murders up (gun policy) sub-standard domestic water deaths up (3 waters)…hell of a policy platform.
The billionaire class thinks it is 'Atlas' and by shrugging they abandon all pretence of humanity and bothersome stuff like democracy, tax, or the rule of law.
This myth is supported by a huge propaganda and military machine. But it is a lie. Workers produce the wealth of nations, the 1% are leeches, or the 'vampire squid'.
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National: The Party of ‘Law and Order’ IntroductionThis weekend, the Government formally kicked off one of their flagship policy programs: a military style boot camp that New Zealand has experimented with over the past 50 years. Cartoon credit: Guy BodyIt’s very popular with the National Party’s Law and Orderimage, ...
Day one of the solo leg of my long journey home begins with my favourite sound: footfalls in an empty street. 5.00 am and it’s already light and already too warm, almost.If I can make the train that leaves Budapest later this hour I could be in Belgrade by nightfall; ...
Do you remember Y2K, the threat that hung over humanity in the closing days of the twentieth century? Horror scenarios of planes falling from the sky, electronic payments failing and ATMs refusing to dispense cash. As for your VCR following instructions and recording your favourite show - forget about it.All ...
Climate Change Minister Simon Watts being questioned by The Kākā’s Bernard Hickey.TL;DR: My top six things to note around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy in the week to July 20 were:1. A strategy that fails Zero Carbon Act & Paris targetsThe National-ACT-NZ First Coalition Government finally unveiled ...
Summary:As New Zealand loses at least 12 leaders in the public service space of health, climate, and pharmaceuticals, this month alone, directly in response to the Government’s policies and budget choices, what lies ahead may be darker than it appears. Tui examines some of those departures and draws a long ...
The Minister of Housing’s ambition is to reduce markedly the ratio of house prices to household incomes. If his strategy works it would transform the housing market, dramatically changing the prospects of housing as an investment.Leaving aside the Minister’s metaphor of ‘flooding the market’ I do not see how the ...
As previously noted, my historical fantasy piece, set in the fifth-century Mediterranean, was accepted for a Pirate Horror anthology, only for the anthology to later fall through. But in a good bit of news, it turned out that the story could indeed be re-marketed as sword and sorcery. As of ...
An employee of tobacco company Philip Morris International demonstrates a heated tobacco device. Photo: Getty ImagesTL;DR: The top six things I’ve noted around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy on Friday, July 19 are:At a time when the Coalition Government is cutting spending on health, infrastructure, education, housing ...
TL;DR: My pick of the top six links elsewhere around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy in the last day or so to 8:30 am on Friday, July 19 are:Scoop: NZ First Minister Casey Costello orders 50% cut to excise tax on heated tobacco products. The minister has ...
Kia ora, it’s time for another Friday roundup, in which we pull together some of the links and stories that caught our eye this week. Feel free to add more in the comments! Our header image this week shows a foggy day in Auckland town, captured by Patrick Reynolds. ...
TL;DR : Here’s the top six items climate news for Aotearoa this week, as selected by Bernard Hickey and The Kākā’s climate correspondent Cathrine Dyer. A discussion recorded yesterday is in the video above and the audio of that sent onto the podcast feed.The Government released its draft Emissions Reduction ...
Save some money, get rich and old, bring it back to Tobacco Road.Bring that dynamite and a crane, blow it up, start all over again.Roll up. Roll up. Or tailor made, if you prefer...Whether you’re selling ciggies, digging for gold, catching dolphins in your nets, or encouraging folks to flutter ...
Waiting In The Wings:For truly, if Trump is America’s un-assassinated Caesar, then J.D. Vance is America’s Octavian, the Republic’s youthful undertaker – and its first Emperor.DONALD TRUMP’S SELECTION of James D. Vance as his running-mate bodes ill for the American republic. A fervent supporter of Viktor Orban, the “illiberal” prime ...
TL;DR: As of 6:00 am on Friday, July 19, the top six announcements, speeches, reports and research around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy in the last day are:The PSAannounced the Employment Relations Authority (ERA) had ruled in the PSA’s favour in its case against the Ministry ...
TL;DR: The podcast above of the weekly ‘hoon’ webinar for paying subscribers last night features co-hosts and talking with:The Kākā’s climate correspondent talking about the National-ACT-NZ First Government’s release of its first Emissions Reduction Plan;University of Otago Foreign Relations Professor and special guest Dr Karin von ...
Open access notablesImproving global temperature datasets to better account for non-uniform warming, Calvert, Quarterly Journal of the Royal Meteorological Society:To better account for spatial non-uniform trends in warming, a new GITD [global instrumental temperature dataset] was created that used maximum likelihood estimation (MLE) to combine the land surface ...
A late change to charter school legislation will cheat educators out of fair pay and negotiating power proving charter schools are just a vehicle to make profit out of our education system. ...
In 2004 te iwi Māori rallied against the Crown’s attempt to confiscate our coastlines and moana with the Foreshore and Seabed Act. This led to the largest hīkoi of a generation and the birth of Te Pāti Māori. 20 years later, history is repeating itself. Today the government has announced ...
It has been five and a half years since the Royal Commission of Inquiry into Abuse in Care was established to investigate the abuse of children, young people, and vulnerable adults within state and faith-based institutions. Yesterday, the final report - Whanaketia through pain and trauma, from darkness to light ...
The Green Party is calling on the Government to take action off the back of the International Court of Justice ruling on Israel’s illegal occupation of Palestine. ...
On Friday the International Court of Justice reaffirmed what Palestinian’s have been telling us for decades: that the occupation and colonisation of Palestinian lands by Israel is illegal and must end immediately. They also called for reparations for Palestinian’s who have lived under Israeli occupation since it began in 1967. ...
Labour calls on the Government to act after the International Court of Justice (ICJ) ruled that Israel’s occupation of Palestinian Territories is illegal. ...
The 53.7 percent rise in benefit sanctions over the last year is more proof of this Government’s disdain for our communities most in need of support. ...
Aotearoa could be a country where every child grows up feeling safe, loved and with a sense of belonging in their whānau and community. But for some of our children, this is far from reality. Instead, they are trapped in a maze of intergenerational harm that they can’t escape on ...
Te Pāti Māori are calling for David Seymour to resign as Associate Health Minister in response to his call for Pharmac to ignore the Treaty of Waitangi. “This announcement is just another example of the government’s anti-Tiriti, anti-Māori agenda.” Said Co-leader and spokesperson for health, Debbie Ngarewa-Packer. “Seymour thinks it ...
The soaring price of renting is driving the rise of inflation in this country - with latest figures from Stats NZ showing rents are up 4.8 per cent on average while annual inflation is at 3.3 per cent. ...
National’s Emissions Reduction Plan will take New Zealand further from the economy we need to ensure the next generation has a stable climate and secure livelihoods. ...
Following consultation with named parties and thorough consideration of privacy interests, the Green Party is in a position to release the Executive Summary of the final report from the independent investigation into Darleen Tana. ...
Prime Minister Christopher Luxon should be asking serious questions of his Minister for Resources Shane Jones now it’s been revealed he misled the public about a dinner with mining companies that he didn’t declare and said wasn’t pre-arranged. ...
Te Pāti Māori have submitted to the Justice Select Committee against the Sentencing (Reinstating Three Strikes) Amendment Bill. The bill will further entrench racism in our justice system and fails to focus on rehabilitation. “Reinstating Three Strikes will empower a systematically racist system and exacerbate the overrepresentation of Māori in ...
The Transport and Infrastructure Committee is set to make a determination on the Residential Tenancies Amendment (RTA) Bill in the coming weeks. “This legislation will give landlords the power to kick our whānau out onto the street for no reason” said Housing spokesperson, Mariameno Kapa-Kingi. “Their solution to the housing ...
“National’s campaign was about tackling crime and the best they can do is a two-year long Ministerial Advisory Group,” Labour justice spokesperson Duncan Webb said. ...
“There are more examples of charter schools failing their students than there are success stories. The coalition Government is driving to dismantle our public school system and instead promote a privatised, competitive structure that puts profits before kids,” Jan Tinetti said. ...
“This government is choosing to deliberately mislead and withhold information, keeping our people in the dark about this government’s agenda and the future of our mokopuna,” said co-leader and spokesperson for Health, Debbie Ngarewa-Packer. The call comes after the demand from the Chief Ombudsman that Associate Minister of Health, Casey ...
“Today’s climate announcement by Simon Watts makes clear the National Government is simply paying lip service to meeting its climate change targets,” Megan Woods said. ...
National is choosing to make life harder for workers by taking away the rights our communities have fought hard for. Here's how they’re taking workers backwards. ...
Australia, Canada and New Zealand today issued the following statement on the need for an urgent ceasefire in Gaza and the risk of expanded conflict between Hizballah and Israel. The situation in Gaza is catastrophic. The human suffering is unacceptable. It cannot continue. We remain unequivocal in our condemnation of ...
Attorney-General Judith Collins today reminded all State and faith-based institutions of their legal obligation to preserve records relevant to the safety and wellbeing of those in its care. “The Abuse in Care Inquiry’s report has found cases where records of the most vulnerable people in State and faith‑based institutions were ...
Minister of Internal Affairs Brooke van Velden says the Government’s online safety website for children and young people has reached one million page views. “It is great to see so many young people and their families accessing the site Keep It Real Online to learn how to stay safe online, and manage ...
Tēnā tātou katoa, Ngā mihi te rangi, ngā mihi te whenua, ngā mihi ki a koutou, kia ora mai koutou. Thank you for the opportunity to be here and the invitation to speak at this 50th anniversary conference. I acknowledge all those who have gone before us and paved the ...
New Zealand’s payroll providers have successfully prepared to ensure 3.5 million individuals will, from Wednesday next week, be able to keep more of what they earn each pay, says Finance Minister Nicola Willis and Revenue Minister Simon Watts. “The Government's tax policy changes are legally effective from Wednesday. Delivering this tax ...
An experimental vineyard which will help futureproof the wine sector has been opened in Blenheim by Associate Regional Development Minister Mark Patterson. The covered vineyard, based at the New Zealand Wine Centre – Te Pokapū Wāina o Aotearoa, enables controlled environmental conditions. “The research that will be produced at the Experimental ...
The Coalition Government has confirmed the indicative regional breakdown of North Island Weather Event (NIWE) funding for state highway recovery projects funded through Budget 2024, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says. “Regions in the North Island suffered extensive and devastating damage from Cyclone Gabrielle and the 2023 Auckland Anniversary Floods, and ...
Indonesia’s Foreign Minister, Retno Marsudi, will visit New Zealand next week, Foreign Minister Winston Peters has announced. “Indonesia is important to New Zealand’s security and economic interests and is our closest South East Asian neighbour,” says Mr Peters, who is currently in Laos to engage with South East Asian partners. ...
He aha te kai a te rangatira? He kōrero, he kōrero, he kōrero. The government has reaffirmed its commitment to supporting the aspirations of Ngāti Maniapoto, Minister for Māori Development Tama Potaka says. “My thanks to Te Nehenehenui Trust – Ngāti Maniapoto for bringing their important kōrero to a ministerial ...
Transport Minister Simeon Brown has thanked outgoing Chair of the Civil Aviation Authority, Janice Fredric, for her service to the board.“I have received Ms Fredric’s resignation from the role of Chair of the Civil Aviation Authority,” Mr Brown says.“On behalf of the Government, I want to thank Ms Fredric for ...
The Government is proposing legislation to overturn a Court of Appeal decision and amend the Marine and Coastal Area Act in order to restore Parliament’s test for Customary Marine Title, Treaty Negotiations Minister Paul Goldsmith says. “Section 58 required an applicant group to prove they have exclusively used and occupied ...
Regulation Minister David Seymour says that opposition parties have united in bad faith, opposing what they claim are ‘dangerous changes’ to the Early Childhood Education sector, despite no changes even being proposed yet. “Issues with affordability and availability of early childhood education, and the complexity of its regulation, has led ...
After receiving more than 740 submissions in the first 20 days, Regulation Minister David Seymour is asking the Ministry for Regulation to extend engagement on the early childhood education regulation review by an extra two weeks. “The level of interest has been very high, and from the conversations I’ve been ...
The Coalition Government is investing $802.9 million into the Wairarapa and Manawatū rail lines as part of a funding agreement with the NZ Transport Agency (NZTA), KiwiRail, and the Greater Wellington and Horizons Regional Councils to deliver more reliable services for commuters in the lower North Island, Transport Minister Simeon ...
Local Government Minister Simeon Brown has announced his intention to appoint a Crown Manager to both Hawke’s Bay Regional and Wairoa District Councils to speed up the delivery of flood protection work in Wairoa."Recent severe weather events in Wairoa this year, combined with damage from Cyclone Gabrielle in 2023 have ...
Mr Speaker, this is a day that many New Zealanders who were abused in State care never thought would come. It’s the day that this Parliament accepts, with deep sorrow and regret, the Report of the Royal Commission of Inquiry into Abuse in Care. At the heart of this report are the ...
For the first time, the Government is formally acknowledging some children and young people at Lake Alice Psychiatric Hospital experienced torture. The final report of the Royal Commission of Inquiry into Abuse in State and Faith-based Care “Whanaketia – through pain and trauma, from darkness to light,” was tabled in Parliament ...
The Government has acknowledged the nearly 2,400 courageous survivors who shared their experiences during the Royal Commission of Inquiry into Historical Abuse in State and Faith-Based Care. The final report from the largest and most complex public inquiry ever held in New Zealand, the Royal Commission Inquiry “Whanaketia – through ...
With a week to go before hard-working New Zealanders see personal income tax relief for the first time in fourteen years, 513,000 people have used the Budget tax calculator to see how much they will benefit, says Finance Minister Nicola Willis. “Tax relief is long overdue. From next Wednesday, personal income ...
Workplace Relations and Safety Minister Brooke van Velden says a bill that has passed its first reading will improve parental leave settings and give non-biological parents more flexibility as primary carer for their child. The Regulatory Systems Amendment Bill (No3), passed its first reading this morning. “It includes a change ...
Two Bills designed to improve regulation and make it easier to do business have passed their first reading in Parliament, says Economic Development Minister Melissa Lee. The Regulatory Systems (Economic Development) Amendment Bill and Regulatory Systems (Immigration and Workforce) Amendment Bill make key changes to legislation administered by the Ministry ...
New legislation paves the way for greater competition in sectors such as banking and electricity, Commerce and Consumer Affairs Minister Andrew Bayly says. “Competitive markets boost productivity, create employment opportunities and lift living standards. To support competition, we need good quality regulation but, unfortunately, a recent OECD report ranked New ...
Minister of Internal Affairs Brooke van Velden says lotteries for charitable purposes, such as those run by the Heart Foundation, Coastguard NZ, and local hospices, will soon be allowed to operate online permanently. “Under current laws, these fundraising lotteries are only allowed to operate online until October 2024, after which ...
The Coalition Government is accelerating work on the new four-lane expressway between Auckland and Whangārei as part of its Roads of National Significance programme, with an accelerated delivery model to deliver this project faster and more efficiently, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says. “For too long, the lack of resilient transport connections ...
Sir Don McKinnon will travel to Viet Nam this week as a Special Envoy of the Government, Foreign Minister Winston Peters has announced. “It is important that the Government give due recognition to the significant contributions that General Secretary Nguyen Phu Trong made to New Zealand-Viet Nam relations,” Mr ...
Minister of Internal Affairs Brooke van Velden says newly appointed Commissioner, Grant Illingworth KC, will help deliver the report for the first phase of the Royal Commission of Inquiry into COVID-19 Lessons, due on 28 November 2024. “I am pleased to announce that Mr Illingworth will commence his appointment as ...
Foreign Minister Winston Peters travels to Laos this week to participate in a series of Association of Southeast Asian Nations (ASEAN)-led Ministerial meetings in Vientiane. “ASEAN plays an important role in supporting a peaceful, stable and prosperous Indo-Pacific,” Mr Peters says. “This will be our third visit to ...
Construction of a new mental health facility at Te Nikau Grey Hospital in Greymouth is today one step closer, Mental Health Minister Matt Doocey says. “This $27 million facility shows this Government is delivering on its promise to boost mental health care and improve front line services,” Mr Doocey says. ...
New Zealand is committing nearly $50 million to a package supporting sustainable Pacific fisheries development over the next four years, Foreign Minister Winston Peters and Oceans and Fisheries Minister Shane Jones announced today. “This support consisting of a range of initiatives demonstrates New Zealand’s commitment to assisting our Pacific partners ...
Associate Education Minister David Seymour says proposed changes to the Education and Training Amendment Bill will ensure charter schools have more flexibility to negotiate employment agreements and are equipped with the right teaching resources. “Cabinet has agreed to progress an amendment which means unions will not be able to initiate ...
In response to serious concerns around oversight, overspend and a significant deterioration in financial outlook, the Board of Health New Zealand will be replaced with a Commissioner, Health Minister Dr Shane Reti announced today. “The previous government’s botched health reforms have created significant financial challenges at Health NZ that, without ...
Minister for Space and Science, Innovation and Technology Judith Collins will travel to Adelaide tomorrow for space and science engagements, including speaking at the Australian Space Forum. While there she will also have meetings and visits with a focus on space, biotechnology and innovation. “New Zealand has a thriving space ...
Climate Change Minister Simon Watts will travel to China on Saturday to attend the Ministerial on Climate Action meeting held in Wuhan. “Attending the Ministerial on Climate Action is an opportunity to advocate for New Zealand climate priorities and engage with our key partners on climate action,” Mr Watts says. ...
Oceans and Fisheries Minister Shane Jones is travelling to the Solomon Islands tomorrow for meetings with his counterparts from around the Pacific supporting collective management of the region’s fisheries. The 23rd Pacific Islands Forum Fisheries Committee and the 5th Regional Fisheries Ministers’ Meeting in Honiara from 23 to 26 July ...
The Government today launched the Military Style Academy Pilot at Te Au rere a te Tonga Youth Justice residence in Palmerston North, an important part of the Government’s plan to crackdown on youth crime and getting youth offenders back on track, Minister for Children, Karen Chhour said today. “On the ...
The Government has welcomed news the NZ Transport Agency (NZTA) has begun work to replace nine priority bridges across the country to ensure our state highway network remains resilient, reliable, and efficient for road users, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says.“Increasing productivity and economic growth is a key priority for the ...
Acting Prime Minister David Seymour has been in contact throughout the evening with senior officials who have coordinated a whole of government response to the global IT outage and can provide an update. The Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet has designated the National Emergency Management Agency as the ...
New Zealand and Japan will continue to step up their shared engagement with the Pacific, Foreign Minister Winston Peters says. “New Zealand and Japan have a strong, shared interest in a free, open and stable Pacific Islands region,” Mr Peters says. “We are pleased to be finding more ways ...
New developments in the heart of North Island forestry country will reinvigorate their communities and boost economic development, Regional Development Minister Shane Jones says. Mr Jones visited Kaingaroa and Kawerau in Bay of Plenty today to open a landmark community centre in the former and a new connecting road in ...
President Adeang, fellow Ministers, honourable Diet Member Horii, Ambassadors, distinguished guests. Minasama, konnichiwa, and good afternoon, everyone. Distinguished guests, it’s a pleasure to be here with you today to talk about New Zealand’s foreign policy reset, the reasons for it, the values that underpin it, and how it ...
Last summer when Matairangi burned, Ginny and Tom stood at the window of their lounge, watching kākā shoot skyward from the burning trees. From the distance, they looked to Ginny like pages torn from books and thrown into a bonfire. It was Tom, voice tight, who told her it was ...
Opinion: The Canadian short story writer Alice Munro – winner of the Nobel Prize in Literature in 2013 – died in May at the age of 92. Her work was about “the damage people inflict on one another in the name of love”, Deborah Treisman wrote in the New Yorker. ...
This month marks two years since the most powerful telescope ever built sent its first pictures back to earth. From its lofty vantage point, beyond the moon in orbit around the sun, the James Webb Space Telescope was tuned to observe the first stars and galaxies being born soon after ...
Comment: After Climate Change Minister Simon Watts’ preview several weeks ago, I had some optimism about the Government’s emissions reduction plan. Now I’ve read the discussion document, that hope has been dashed. How can the Government propose a plan that wants to take New Zealand taxpayers’ hard-earned money, and spend ...
Christopher Luxon: hurdles The little man from National jumps hurdles in his sleep. He’s quite good at it in his dreams and even though the reality doesn’t quite match up you have to give him credit for getting up every morning and crashing into the very first hurdle of the ...
Comment: It was a good two hours into the conversation when Tyrone Marks raised the most basic of questions when I first spoke to him in 2017. “They didn’t explain the things they did to me. They never told me why. And they still haven’t. There’s no explanation for it. ...
Madeleine Chapman rounds out Death Week on The Spinoff with a final recommendation. You can read all of our Death Week coverage here. Nothing forces you to reflect on your life and relationships quite like proximity to death. For those whose nearest and dearest have died, there are reasonably obvious ...
Whitney Greene takes us through her life in television, including the TV character she’d like to plan a funeral for and her cow lung catastrophe on The Traitors NZ. “If the phone rings, I have to answer it,” Whitney Greene from The Traitors NZ warns as we begin our My ...
Maddie Ballard reviews the debut essay collection of Pōneke writer Flora Feltham.In ‘The Raw Material’, the longest essay in Flora Feltham’s dazzling debut collection, the author heads out for a run after hours of weaving and sees the world turn to textile. “Pounding along the Parade, I saw the ...
Andy Christiansen, one half of the experimental rock-pop duo TRiPS, shares the tunes inspiring the band’s perfect weekend and new release. “Good speakers, good food, good music, no distractions”: that’s all you need to enjoy the psychedelic stylings of TRiPS, a new band formed by Fly My Pretties’ Barnaby Weir ...
Celebrating our quadrennial opportunity to become experts in a bunch of sports we never normally watch.The games of the XXXIII Olympiad are upon us. Paris will host this year’s showcase of sporting and athletic prowess, which means some late-night and early-morning viewing for us in Aotearoa.But what sports ...
The photograph is striking and beautiful, but also disturbing – a reminder that my love for John was often entangled in shame.The Sunday Essay is made possible thanks to the support of Creative New Zealand.In the spring of 1980, in Dunedin, shortly before his death, someone took a photograph ...
Get to know Babushka, our latest Dog of the Month. This feature was offered as a reward during our What’s Eating Aotearoa PledgeMe campaign. Thank you to Babu’s humans, Jo and Isabel, for their support. Dog name: Babushka (Babu for short) Age: 2Breed: Border Collie X poodleIf rescued, ...
Pacific Media Watch A Lebanese photojournalist who was severely wounded during an Israeli air strike in south Lebanon carried the Olympic torch in Paris this week in honour of her peers who have been wounded and killed in the field — especially in Gaza and Lebanon. Christina Assi of Agence ...
The first report in a five-part web series focused on the 15th Triennial Conference of Pacific Women taking place in the Marshall Islands this week.SPECIAL REPORT:By Netani Rika in Majuro Women continue to fight for justice 70 years after the first nuclear tests by the United States caused ...
Christopher Luxon has joined with Australia and Canada's leaders in voicing support for US President Joe Biden's ceasefire deal between Israel and Hamas. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Michelle Grattan, Professorial Fellow, University of Canberra The 2022 election brought the “teal wave” into parliament. The next election will test whether teals, who occupy what were Liberal seats, and other independents can maintain their momentum. Joining us on the Podcast ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Ian Musgrave, Senior lecturer in Pharmacology, University of Adelaide Pixavri/Shutterstock A major Federal Court class action has been dismissed this week after Justice Michael Lee ruled there was not enough evidence to prove the weedkiller Roundup causes cancer. Plaintiff Kelvin ...
In The Week in Politics: politicians have to decide what to do about child abuse, Health NZ is booked in for major surgery and Darleen Tana returns. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Clare Corbould, Associate Professor, Contemporary Histories Research Group, Deakin University Mainstream media are surprisingly muted at the prospect of the world’s most powerful nation being led for the first time by a woman – specifically a woman of colour, Vice President Kamala ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Rebecca Bennett, PhD Student, Associate Research Fellow, Deakin University Last week, a drone delivery company called Wing (owned by Google’s parent company, Alphabet) started operating in Melbourne. Some 250,000 residents in parts of the city’s eastern suburbs can now order food from ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Jonathan Foo, Lecturer, Physiotherapy, Monash University pikselstock/Shutterstock In the next 40 years in Australia, it’s predicted the number of Australians aged 65 and over will more than double, while the number of people aged 85 and over will more than triple. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Katrina Grant, Research Associate, Power Institute for Arts and Visual Culture, University of Sydney Jonas Åkerström’s 1790 work, Session of the Accademia dell’Arcadia on August 17 1788.Nationalmuseum/Cecilia Heisser Ever wondered whether you’d have a better chance at winning an Olympic gold ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Alexandra Jones, Program Lead, Food Governance, George Institute for Global Health wavebreakmedia/Shutterstock On Thursday, Australian and New Zealand food ministers at state, federal and national levels met to thrash out what’s next for health star ratings on packaged foods. Now, after ...
The Abuse in Care report found many Pacific survivors lost their connections to their culture and language, resulting in trauma that has been carried from generation to generation. ...
In the regulatory review, ECC intends to suggest that ERO focus on curriculum delivery reviews rather than the Ministry, because it’s not efficient or effective to have two agencies with radically different approaches climbing over each other. ...
Te Rūnanga Nui o Ngā Kura Kaupapa Māori invites the current government to work in partnership with them to develop a pathway forward, including the development of a parallel pathway and meaningful policy and strategy for Kura Kaupapa Māori ...
If you haven’t started watching yet, Tara Ward begs you to reconsider. This is an excerpt from our weekly pop culture newsletter Rec Room. Sign up here. In the world of New Zealand reality television, we have many gems in our crown. There’s the delicious second season of the Celebrity Treasure ...
A new poem by Fiona Kidman. The clothes of the dead I did not keep my mother’s furry red beret for long nor the stringy scarves that adorned the necks of my aunts, although I have kept tag ends of gold, the rings and trinkets they wore, the brooches no ...
The government’s announcement that it will re-open the foreshore and seabed controversy by changing the rules on recognising centuries-old Māori customary title for a third time goes against the rule of law and New Zealand values,” Mr Tipa says. ...
The only published and available best-selling indie book chart in New Zealand is the top 10 sales list recorded every week at Unity Books’ stores in High St, Auckland, and Willis St, Wellington.AUCKLAND1 Lioness by Emily Perkins (Bloomsbury, $25) Roarrrr! Perkins’ brilliant, award-winning, Marian-Keyes anointed, darkly funny, long ...
The 2004 Act vested ownership of the foreshore and seabed in the Crown, extinguishing any Māori claims to ownership and causing widespread outrage and protests among Māori communities. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Antje Deckert, Associate Professor (Criminology), Auckland University of Technology Getty Images Despite the connection between institutional harm and gang membership made clear in this week’s mammoth royal commission abuse-in care report, the government seems unlikely to soften its “get tough on ...
From Lewis Clareburt in the swimming to the start of the rowing – the first seven days of Paris 2024 promise to be big for New Zealand. There are few events that bring the country together quite like an Olympic Games. Nothing quite matches the excitement of getting up in ...
Groundbreaking local science just showed up in the most surprising of places: the season finale of The Kardashians. In the season five finale of The Kardashians last night, several members of the family gathered together in one of their signature empty, cream-coloured rooms to hear test results that had been ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Amin Saikal, Emeritus professor of Middle Eastern and Central Asian Studies, Australian National University The Middle East is on the brink of a possibly devastating regional war, with hostilities between Israel and Hezbollah reaching an extremely dangerous level. Washington has engaged in ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Laura Elizabeth Eades, Rheumatologist, Monash University Lupus is an inflammatory autoimmune illness, where the body’s immune system mistakenly attacks itself. Lupus can affect virtually any part of the body, although it most commonly affects the skin, joints and kidneys. The symptoms ...
A law firm that specialises in working with survivors of abuse in State care is disappointed that the Government fails to recognise that its boot camps can be directly compared to previous boot camps from the 1990s and 2000s. ...
Dying is a natural part of life, like updating your Wof or seeing your hairdresser, but without the word-of-mouth recs that help guarantee a good service. What if we changed that? Dying Reviews received by The Spinoff have had the names of organisations redacted while Hospice NZ collects further data. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Jonti Horner, Professor (Astrophysics), University of Southern Queensland Mike Lewinski/Flickr, CC BY On any clear night, if you gaze skywards long enough, chances are you’ll see a meteor streaking through the sky. Some nights, however, are better than others. At ...
Despite having no bars or other designated spaces for lesbians, Auckland boasts a small but mighty lesbian museum. So how did it get here? The past 18 months has brought increasing hostility towards the queer community across Aotearoa. Kellie-Jay Keen-Minshull’s anti-trans rally in Tamaki Makaurau last March led to a ...
Poneke Antifascist Coalition has invited Wellingtonians to stand in solidarity with the Kanak people at 12pm today outside the French Embassy in Wellington. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Peter Layton, Visiting Fellow, Strategic Studies, Griffith University Drones are the signature technology of the Ukraine war. A few miniature aircraft designs were used in the war’s early days, but an incredible array of drones have now evolved. There are different types, ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Mark Slee, Associate Professor, Clinical Academic Neurologist, Flinders University Francisco Gonzelez/Unsplash Migraine is many things, but one thing it’s not is “just a headache”. “Migraine” comes from the Greek word “hemicrania”, referring to the common experience of migraine being predominantly ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Lee White, Senior Lecturer and Horizon Fellow, School of Social and Political Sciences, University of Sydney Australia was slow to introduce minimum building standards for energy efficiency. The Nationwide House Energy Rating Scheme (NatHERS) only came into force in 2003. Older homes ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Steven Sherwood, Professor of Atmospheric Sciences, Climate Change Research Centre, UNSW Sydney The past century of human-induced warming has increased rainfall variability over 75% of the Earth’s land area – particularly over Australia, Europe and eastern North America, new research shows. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Tony Heynen, Program Coordinator, Sustainable Energy, The University of Queensland A temporary stadium in the Champ-de-Mars, ParisEkaterina Pokrovsky/Shutterstock As Paris prepares to host the Olympic and Paralympic Games, the sustainability of the event is coming under scrutiny. The organisers have promoted ...
A night of karaoke and community in a pub that feels like a memory. You’d barely even notice it, unless you knew to look. Tucked away behind a liquor store on busy Constable Street is the capital’s last great pub. Newtown Sports Bar is an emblem of the pub culture ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Ian Wright, Professor in Marine Geology, University of Canterbury Louise Corcoran/Getty Images The decline in the number of doctoral candidates at New Zealand universities is a worrying sign for the country’s effort to build a knowledge-based economy. Aotearoa New Zealand’s ...
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'
#1 South Africa Vs. Israel
(It's not often we get to hear the rare voice of Jewish people born in Palestine before the creation of the state of Israel, who had to leave their homeland because they opposed the Zionist state.)
[please stop spamming TS with long copypasta. We want people’s own ideas, with links and targeted quotes as back up or further explanation. This is not a place to just dump what you are reading and expect others to read it too. I see you have written a longer post in your own words, that’s good stuff.
From now on, you are restricted to 3 paragraphs max of copy and paste in any comment. Please use this wisely and don’t abuse the privilege. I would also strongly recommend less overall copypasta comments – weka]
A very accurate perception as to the dilemma facing Israel in 1967, occupation required empowering locals in Gaza and WB to govern themselves, whether they chose to declare a state, or not.
That would have counter-acted the formation of the PLO by the Arab League (not recognising the state of Israel) in 1964 with someone Lebanese as its first chairman.
https://www.britannica.com/summary/Palestine-Liberation-Organization
The absence of any policy led not just to the Egyptian and Syrian attack in 1973, but the formation of Likud in 1977 (with a policy of peace with Egypt, the invasion to the north against the PLO in Lebanon and settlements in the occupied territories). And its current leader BN has always opposed the Oslo Accord process to a two state peace (a legacy of the Labour era of rule which ended in 2001).
mod note.
#2 Ukraine vs. Russia
Israel says that they will appear before the ICJ to defend themselves from South Africa's charge of committing genocide. This is exactly analogous of the Russian Federation's response to the case taken against them in the ICJ by Ukraine. Only two countries, Malaysia and Turkey, have filed submissions to the ICJ as 'Intervening States' Compare this to the 32 'Intervening States' including New Zealand that gave their country's submissions to the ICJ in the case of Ukraine vs. Russia
Ukraine filed a case with the ICJ that Russia had falsely claimed that Ukraine had committed the crime of genocide.
The Russian Federation sent a team of lawyers to defend Russia's position that Ukraine had committed genocide against ethnic Russians and Russian speakers in the Donbas. An accusation that Ukraine strongly denied.
The proceedings of the ICJ are live streamed. I found it worthwhile to review these video recordings of the Ukraine vs. Russia case before the International Court of Justice in the Hague, in the historic and grandly named 'Peace Palace'.
https://www.vredespaleis.nl/?lang=en
I recommend anyone interested in how the case of South Africa vs. Israel will play out to watch the recording of the live stream of the Ukraine vs. Russia case.
Streamed live on Sep 18, 2023 #Ukraine #VladimirPutin #Putin
The UN's top court in The Hague, Netherlands began five days of hearings, where representatives of Russia and Ukraine clashed over President Vladimir Putin's allegations of genocide in eastern Ukraine, as a pretext for the "special military operation" to “demilitarize and denazify Ukraine”
From the live stream of the hearing in the Peace Palace, Ukraine vs. the Russian Federation
The livestream of the opening address by the presiding ICJ President, Joan E. Donoghue begins @0:00 minutes
I can highly recommend watching the recording of these proceedings
After watching the live stream of Ukraine vs. the Russian Federation, I am of the opinion that the two cases. Ukraine vs. Russia, and South Africa vs. Israel, are apposite, but opposite. These two cases are apposite in that they are mirror opposite images of each other.
The main difference between the two cases being US allies like New Zealand will not be making legal submissions as intervening states party to the genocide convention in the case of South Africa vs. Israel, as they did in the case of Ukraine vs. Russia.
Our parliamentary journalists and opposition MPs need to be asking the Minister of Foreign Affairs to explain the reason why New Zealand intervened in one case and not the other.
To them I would say: 'If you ever wondered what you would have done during the Holocaust, you are doing it now.'
New Zealand was at war with Germany during the holocaust.
It is for the collective security of nation states from aggression.
It is for a two state peace process to realise the outcome intended in 1947, despite the war in 1948.
Given the action of Oct 7 and the right of nations to self-defence (including defeat of the military that attacked them), Israel is accountable for its "war-time" actions. Otherwise for the occupation of the West Bank, which Hamas might claim was its provocation (given Gaza was more under blockade than occupation itself).
‘
New Zealand intervenes
New Zealand Ministry of Foreign Affairs, (MFAT), Statements and speeches: 20 September 2023
In my opinion, it would be the height of hypocrisy, and an international embarrassment, if New Zealand did not repeat our nation's intervention, in its capacity as a Contracting Party to the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide 1948
https://www.democracynow.org/2024/1/2/south_africa_israel_genocide_icj?fbclid=IwAR3luU2oDM596vKJYn5bv4-4Hl4MWDCK55ti65w5lILdRVA3tDB15IOEVkU
A lovely, touching article that may go some way to soften hearts of those who view rugby as a bunch of boofheads.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/133522428/the-all-black-and-the-groundsman-why-deep-friendships-not-trophies-are-rugbys-lifeblood?cx_testId=12&cx_testVariant=cx_1&cx_artPos=0&cx_experienceId=EXE6G6ISTGR0#cxrecs_s
does anyone have a term that can be used in place of cooker to refer to people who were anti-mandate, anti-mask, pro-libertarian and so on?
I need neutral not pejorative words, and catch all terms so I don't have to write a long sentence each time I refer to them.
Covid dissidents? or sceptics
covid dissidents is very good, thanks.
Covid rebels?
That is precisely what they are so I prefer it despite the tougher language.
But covid dissidents is OK.
Pandemic Rebellion!
Covid rebels, mandate rebels might work too. Good to have a range of terms to induce nuance, cheers.
Anti-sciencers?
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-antiscience-movement-is-escalating-going-global-and-killing-thousands/
that's a pejorative Anne.
That is precisely what they are – anti-science. They are extremely dangerous and there needs to be a concerted international effort to curb their increasing influence. Their anti-mandate/anti mask stance is just a manifestation of their denial of scientific evaluation and modelling.
The best equivalent are the flat earthers of a couple or more centuries ago. People who flatly denied the Earth was round and executed people for holding 'scientific' views based on actual evidence.
"…people who flatly denied the Earth was round…"
Elegant!
Who are 'they' in that sentence Anne? Be precise.
Weka….it was me who suggested "rebels" and "they" are the rag-tag mass of people with disparate aims/objectives who camped and demonstrated on the lawn outside parliament using covid as their excuse.
agree that they are disparate group. Not sure it's entirely about the parliament protest but also agree that the Freedom protest gave people a focus for a wider range of grievances. It certainly brought things to a head.
Thank-you BG. I didn't see weka's response.
Much respect for weka and the work she puts into this site, but disagree with her views on this subject. That rag-tag mass of disparate individuals who behaved so badly during the parliament protest were indeed who I was referring to. I thought it was obvious. I would add the individuals from NZ and off-shore who supported and enabled (financially and otherwise) their activities.
Quite a few of them don't consider "anti-science" to be a pejorative.
lol, true.
since you brought up anti-sciencism, and referenced Scientific American, there's this to consider about accusations of being anti-science.
Scientific American takes a pro-gender identity ideology position. It publishes articles that say there are more than two sexes in humans, or that sex isn't binary.
This is SA's editor in chief being anti-science on twitter.
from @laurahelmuth
https://twitter.com/laurahelmuth/status/1658952315032698883
A community note (where registered people can add notes correcting incorrect tweets), was attached to that tweet
Colin Wright, evolutionary biologist, also replied,
https://twitter.com/SwipeWright/status/1658977019118383106
And his article explaining the problem,
https://www.realityslaststand.com/p/debunking-pseudoscience-multimodal
So if you want to claim that every covid dissident is anti-scientific, then by your argument I can claim that every person who isn't gender critical is anti-scientific, which means you (and Robert) are anti-scientific. See how that works?
The point here is to have political terms that aren't pejorative so we can get past the name calling and superficial political analysis and really get to grips with the issues. I agree that something needs to be done, but I don't think what we need can be achieved by ostrasisation and ridicule.
Does the group you're trying to label include those who fear Agenda 21? Those who donated money to Liz Gunn's campaign and for the whistleblower's legal defence? Those who subscribe to Sue Grey's channel?
Are they the people who wanted to string "Jabcinda" up because she's a witch?
Hard group to give a respectful title to, imo.
probably does. Just like the term 'left' includes people who believe weird shit.
I'm thinking a broad term, with other more specific terms for sub groups. Just like we do for other political and social categories.
For instance,
Covid dissidents
Covid dissidents who are conspiracy theorists
Covid dissidents who are conspiracy theorists and violent fantacists
Covid dissidents who are fascist or protofascist
But, there are also covid dissidents who aren't down the rabbit hole. The term cooker renders them invisible, another reason I dislike the term.
Are there "Covid dissidents" who aren't also conspiracy theorists?
If they opposed the Governments authoritarian behaviour around mask-wearing, mandates and vaccination programmes, they surely held views that the authorities were conspiring against the people. Those who I spoke to over that time certainly do. There will be some (relatively few) who, for reasons of health etc. were opposed but how many of those didn't end up extrapolating bad intent by the Government? Genuine question.
Of course there are covid dissidents who don't believe in conspiracy theories.
It doesn't require a conspiracy theory to think there were problems with the mandates. Or to feel uncomfortable with a new vaccine.
I think your surety here speaks about your own politics and positions rather than being about the wide range of people with a wide range of beliefs that we are talking about.
Absolutely agree with this.
I know, personally, several people who were firmly anti-mandate and personally anti-Covid vaccination.
Some of them chose to be vaccinated because of Covid risk to elderly family members; some of them felt coerced into being vaccinated by the government mandates (and were very angry about this). Some of them held by their principles, and refused Covid vaccination, and weathered the storm of public disapproval and exclusion (these were even more angry)
[Please note the word 'felt' above, I have no interest in relitigating whether or not the Government mandates actually amounted to forced vaccination]
None of them are 'anti-science' in general (no conspiracy theories in other areas). And, indeed, a smattering of 'science' made them more concerned over a novel (mRNA) and untested vaccine (untested, as in no longitudinal studies). And within living memory we have instances of 'science' recommending medical treatments which caused major issues (thalidomide).
The mandates worked then. As far as I know the concept was to encourage (you said coerce) people to get vaccinated for their own health and for the health those around them, and to reduce the burden on the health system.
encourage is a kind of weasel word the right like to use. Let's encourage beneficiaries back to work by forcing them to live in poverty, kind of thing.
The mandates were what they said on the label. People were required to vaccinate or lose their jobs. That wasn't encouragement, it was a mandate.
Part of the damage done by the mandates was the refusal of some to acknowledge the damage that was being done. The comms and social commentary added to that. The left taking an ostracise and ridicule approach is part of why we have a right wing government currently.
It hard to know how many more vulnerable people's lives would have been lost were it not for mandates. Perhaps someone will model it if they haven’t already.
If some people didn't have to get vaccinated, they simply wouldn't do it (those people more concerned with the self rather than the many, which is a thing peculiar to the right wing) and we would have had less vaccine coverage.
yes, the point of the mandate was in part to coerce vaccine hesitant people into getting vaccinated. It wasn't encouragement, it was mandatory if one wanted to keep a certain job.
Everything is mandatory if.
"…encourage is a kind of weasel word…"
It's also a genuine word, meaning, "give support, confidence, or hope to (someone)." and so on.
Why the wry take?
My comment was about the word encourage in a specific context. Your comment seems to be about teh word generally.
If the government could have encouraged the NZ population to a high vax rate without the mandates, it would have. It couldn't, hence coercion.
How could a dissident not hold conspiratorial views about the government?
Could they convince themselves that the politicians were simply stupid, or reckless?
Unlikely.
I'm keen to hear from a "Covid-dissident" who doesn't think their view of Government is "it's a conspiracy".
I wouldn't call myself a covid dissident, but I'm sure there are some who would give me that label. For instance when I have talked about the problems with the vaccine mandate. I'm also vaccine hesitant (although double vaxxed against covid). None of my views or beliefs on that requires belief in a conspiracy theory.
I value dissent as a cultural practice very highly, and probably have a higher tolerance for it than many.
Also, if I said that there is an overarching system, run by wealthy and powerful people, that operates to control all the money in the world for the benefit of rich people and it is killing the planet, is that a conspiracy theory? Or it is just a plain language sentence about late stage neoliberal capitalism?
Besides, I'm willing to bet that you hold some beliefs that the science geeks here would find anti-scientific. Me too. We've all got our weird ideas. I find it bizarre that there are still people who think alternative medicine is the devil's work. Or that putting salmon genes in strawberries is a good idea. But here we are.
My own theory is that many of the covid dissidents and wider counter culture around alt health have solid intuitive understandings of something being wrong, but they don't have the science literacy or cultural concepts to parse that into something meaningful to wider society. They are as susceptible to power and control culture as the rest of us. And because they were already both fairly libertarian (or tactically libertarian as Psycho Milt pointed out on twitter) and used to being counter culture, they both care and don't care about being ostracised. Ostracisation isn't working other than to motivate them to organise.
I think they also have some seriously problems thinking critically, and other issues. But that's not all they are.
If you're a dissident, you have baulked at the Government's actions; you don't approve of them, that's what the word means, doesn't it?
How would you explain the Government's actions in that case?
Incompetence?
Relying on bad advice?
Or that they conspired to deceive or force their programme, for reasons other than the health of the people?
Most of the cooker/dissidentsI have engaged with on the issue have settled on the latter. Is this not the general case? Happy to hear otherwise.
You have indicated that you believe loss of confidence in the Government over this issue cost the Left the election.
Are you really a Covid-dissident?
I think Labour did an incredible job during an unprecedented and very difficult time. I also think they made some mistakes. Much of that I put down to overload, but I also think some of it was simply ideological (Ardern's two NZs interview is an example).
Again, I think this reflects your experience as much as anything. There are certainly lots of people down the rabbit hole. But not all people that would get called cooker are that. Maybe you need to get out more? 😉 By which I mean, the people that engage in the ostracise and ridicule strategy have boxed themselves into a corner, they see what they see.
Whereas the people I know who are covid dissidents are for the most part ordinary people with some strange ideas who take part in my community just like everyone else and contribute a great deal. Some of them are so far down the rabbit hole it's nearly impossible to talk with them, some of them just think the government fucked up on things like the mandates and the vaccine programme. I have friends who are the latter, but who were relatively ok with the lockdowns because of their lifestyle. I know others who think the lockdowns were heinous.
In all of that I still see them as humans first. What I observe about the use of the word cooker is that it's starting to move towards dehumanisation. The people all get lumped togethers, they're a hive mind, and they're all terrible. See Joe90's comments blaming them for LC when it's actually the government and health authorities and MSM that are letting this tragedy unfold.
No, as I said, I am not. But I remember the vaccine convos here in the first few years of the pandemic, and how difficult it was to talk about my concerns about the vaccines being developed, as someone with a long term illness and not knowing how it might impact on me (and others). It wasn't a supportive environment (fair enough, it's a political blog), but it was a feature that people's beliefs were driving their politics across the board.
"(Ardern's two NZs interview is an example). "
I'd love to talk about those, sometime!
Reactions to and perceptions of details of those interviews are pivotal to the discussion, imo.
I still reel/marvel at the different takes on Jacinda's words (spoiler: I believe cookers received Jacinda's words wrongly and have tried many times to bring this issue to (some of their) attentions. Much hatred was spawned from those moments, and I attribute the negative responses to the cookers, or whatever lable you care to give those folk.
You make a good point, Robert. My textbook example would be from one of the most empathetic speeches in Parliament, in my opinion, by Michael Wood, which was received by some in such a way that it caused much bad blood [no pun intended].
Thanks, Incognito and yes, you are, not unexpectedly, on point with your comment. I don't expect a fruitful discussion will in fact eventuate, but at least I'm encouraged to find that others (you, at least), are aware of this situation.
Today's discussion around differentiating and assigning lables to the lively players in the Covid Event has been really interesting, imo, though there have been no definite lines drawn, rules set, as I expected. That there weren't is not a reason to despair about the process of debate; it's natural, imo.
I can see weka’s point(s) and I have considerable sympathy for it. It was brave to attempt initiating a discussion around the use/over-use/mis-use/abuse of the work “cooker”. However, it was entirely predictable that it would go in many different directions given the background context akin Pandora’s Box (or the proverbial can of worms).
My take-home message for today would be to avoid such loaded (and often meaningless, ironically) terms and/or try articulating clearly and specifically what one means (aka say what you mean). This won’t avoid all confusion and misinterpretation but it might go some way in alleviating the worst ones.
The additional problem is that the ‘baggage’ from one discussion thread tends to follow to other threads like a bad on-line review that’s impossible to shake off. People build some kind of (assumed) persona/avatar of themselves but also of others and they (we) strengthen & confirm these images in & through our future interactions here on TS. And so on and so forth.
I'll not use the term again.
Respect!
I’d consider this a positive outcome of today’s discussion.
respect from me too.
I thought the conversation today was interesting too, and it was good to see people hashing things out. Having a conversation about the two NZ interview etc would be great, I can’t see why that can’t be a good debate 🙂
Or you could call us "widely read"…ie don't blindly accept the pap pumped out by mainstream media.
Or perhaps, since we find and reference peer reviewed scientific papers that show data that proves that despite the "safe and effective" narrative the mRNA products were nether, you could call us "not as gullible as the mainstream".
Or perhaps you could call us "ban-hammer" bait since we cop a blow for suggesting that the mRNA shots were not such a good idea risk/benefit wise for the Young People. As was advised by the government of the day's very own Covid Vaccine Advisory Group. As was revealed via an OIA a while back. Not that the true lefties on TS would have mentioned it.
Or you could simply call us "Legends". I haven't spoken to a single person who regretted declining the Pfizer product. (And no…we are not dead.) I've spoken to plenty who took it and have vowed never again.
Of course the Good, True Lefties on TS would have to be brave and step outside their echo chamber to meet any of them. Or the regretful simply wouldn't risk the rabid opprobrium by telling their true thoughts on the matter.
[1. you’re flaming. 2. I looked at the mod notes (front and back end) for the past three years and what I see is you repeatedly being put into premod and/or banned for failing to present evidence when asked by a mod, or failing to respond to mod requests. 3. you also tend to disappear when the mods ask for a response.
All three of those are consistent patterns of behaviour that have taken up a lot of moderator time on TS.
I can also see that moderators put a lot of time into trying to get your to change the patterns of behaviour and the last mod notes in the backend were basically about us giving up because it’s clear you had no intention of changing.
You are back from a very long ban and straight back into the flaming, and misrepresenting moderation. Neither of those are tenable here.
I’m not willing to use my time trying to get you to change your behaviour, nor wait around for you to respond.
I really wish you would sort this out in yourself, because you have a much longer history of bringing good debate to TS. Please give this some thought on your next ban. 6 months – weka]
mod note.
Hi Rosemary,
Missed seeing you on here, but not here often. Do you have a Twitter account, or can I find you elsewhere?
Those vulnerable to any infection because of poor immunity (in some part age related) were dependent on being in a country with a successful border bubble, or privilege of a secure personal bubble – in part created by others having up to 6 months immunity by vaccine.
Of course those who survived have no regrets about not taking the vaccine and those who did, now only threatened by a milder omicron and with the health system able to cope (and with anti-virals etc), wonder if they had to vaccinated to be safe.
That is because we vaccinated before ending the bubble, and then had a vaccine (for up to 6 months prevention from infection from delta) but then got hit with the transition to the more infectious but less deadly omicron.
That those in good health wonder at the need for boosters on and on, when it does not prevent infection and the illness is milder, does not make a case for not being vaccinated before this was known and some safeguard before ending the border bubble was required.
Yes Robert, I was and still am firmly against the mandates. They did more harm than good if you look at the bigger picture. For very little extra gain in vaccine coverage we've managed to alienate a significantly large group of people and it will take years to repair the damage to society.
Mandates are a big reason we have our curent govt as the dissafected vote swung in behind Winston.
Id argue the damage we're going to see over the next 3 years is a direct result of Jacinda Arden going back on her word and introducing the mandates.
The last three on that list are who I think of when the term 'cookers' is used.
So maybe it is a perfectly good term, just is being misused to include #1 on the list.
Bit like the word 'nazi', has specific and real meaning, but often misused by applying to non-nazi things..
It's also being used to include anyone who dissents from the the mainstream view on the pandemic whether they hold problematic views or not.
I don't think there is any coming back from that misuse, the term is now solidly a pejorative.
Cooker is an Australian idiom used as an othering word. It doesn't have the kind of history that Nazi does. Not terribly surprising, but I am seeing a number of lefties in this conversation wanting to reinforce their prejudices.
The problem I have is that cooker is probably in breach of the site Policy in the way it gets used here,
https://thestandard.org.nz/policy/
As a mod, I'm increasingly feeling like I need to address this, in the same way I had to address the use of terf.
Lefties are often not good a looking at the mote in their own eye.
"Lefties are often not good a looking at the mote in their own eye."
"Lefties" is a pejorative term on Kiwiblog.
and? I'm not understanding your point here Robert.
Meaning, meaning is also dependent upon the audience/user group. What's pejorative to one group can be benign to another.
ok, I agree with that. I think this conversation has demonstrated that the people on TS that like to use the word cooker here, use it as a pejorative.
Ah, but there is more than one group here on TS. Some find it provocative, others quite mild (probably) as I do.
true, but from a mod pov, it’s not about how you feel about the word, it’s about how the word gets used in conversations in the wider political context.
For instance, if someone decided that the word slag was mild but used it to talk about women in pejorative ways, I would moderate irrespective of the user’s feelings about the word.
Imho, 'conspiracy theorist(s)' is a fairer and more descriptive term, if a bit long-winded, although some would consider it pejorative too.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_conspiracy_theories
Liz Gunn didn't make it onto Wikipedia's list of COVID-19 conspiracy theorists, but she is on a NZ-specific list of anti-vaccination activists.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:New_Zealand_anti-vaccination_activists
I don't like bullies, but Gunn's anti-vaccination activism is not for me.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_vaccine_misinformation_and_hesitancy
the problem with conspiracy theorist as a term is that not all covid dissidents believe in conspiracy theories. See Belladonna’s comment below.
I think covid conspiracy theorists are a subset of covid dissidents, but perhaps it’s more a Venn diagram with overlaps.
Gunn is fascinating because she’s obviously disconnected from reality in important ways without being classically mentally ill. She’s also probably dangerous. Will be interesting to see what she does over this term.
My own view is that while I think people like her need to be addressed directly, I think that on its own is insufficient, and we also need to build bridges with the much larger group of people that have been or are being radicalised to that culture. Literally none of the lefties who favour ostracisation and ridicule as an approach have explained how that would work and what the endgame is.
But no-one would decide that the word "slag" was mild.
The assumption being made around "cooker" is that it's in the same category as "slag". Has that been established anywhere?
Red Logix once referred to me as a trollop. He was trying to make a play on the word, but obviously thought the joke was ok. The feminists and some leftie men in the room were unimpressed and took him to task. This is what I mean about it not being about the feelings of the person using the word when there is a wider political context.
I don’t think cooker is the same as slag, but I still think it’s sufficiently problematic in ways you might not be appreciating.
The trollope comment, back in the days when the debate was more personalised,
https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-10012015/#comment-949181
terf is the better comparator, but you and I sit on opposite sides of that fence, so it didn’t seem that useful in our conversation.
It has the same dynamic of users not understanding just how harmful the term is though.
Most, if not all readers here would regard "trollop" as rather unkind and wouldn't be used fondly, unless accompanied by a note.
"Terf" is clearly inflammatory, as would be obvious to anyone who's been reading here over the past year or 2.
"Cooker" though, has no history like "slag", "trollop" or "terf".
What I'm asking about is whether it is in fact, inflammatory to anyone other than a cooker 🙂 and if not, why not use it, if you so choose?
(I don't buy the "meth" allusion, btw)
Pejoratives are generally inflammatory to the people they are about/directed at. Does it matter if its only covid dissidents who are upset about the word?
I’ve been increasingly uncomfortable about how the word is used and almost never use it now myself. The conversation today has shown that a number of people here who use the word, think of it as a pejorative. I also asked on twitter, and likewise, there were those who understood and those who came up alternatives such as ‘fuckwits’. Do you really think it’s ok to use a term that people consider a synonym of fuckwit?
I remember a time when many lefties used the term terf, unaware that it was also associated with the worst misogyny many of us have seen online. Gender critical feminists knew about it though.
In the end I had to moderate the use of the word on TS, because the leftie liberals were committed to their ignorance about how the word was used and its impact. Or maybe they knew and didn’t care.
Cookers not a great word, in Aussie it gets used to describe people that have signifcant mental health issues (bipolar etc) it does way more harm than good and honestly beneath you.
Yes, including Venn diagrams – was suggesting 'Conspiracy theorists' as a less derogatory alternative to 'cookers', on the basis of my current understanding of this particular meaning of 'cookers'.
Anyway, this convo has left me behind. I too like Francesca's “Covid dissidents” @5.1, although since Covid dissidemts/dissenters are typically opposed to one or more aspects of the pandemic response, maybe consider 'pandemic response-dissidents'.
[Edit: this is the missing link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_English_vocabulary#Words_of_Australian_origin – Incognito]
link please
some Ocker on twitter reckons?
That dictionary def is broader, and that’s what I observe. As explained, there are people who oppose government pandemic response who don’t believe in conspiracy theories about covid.
" Does it matter if its only covid dissidents who are upset about the word?"
It should only be cookers who are upset by the word, surely?
"I remember a time when many lefties used the term terf, unaware that it was also associated with the worst misogyny many of us have seen online. "
But is "cooker"" associated with the worst (anything) many of us have seen online. "
Nope.
Not fair to conflate the 2 terms.
That said, I'm not going to die in a ditch for "cooker", though you might be assuming that I would. I could hardly care less. Call them dingbats, or crack-pots, if you want to. I thought "cookers" was kinda cool 🙂
Weka @6:51 pm – sorry for not giving the link for that definition.
It's cut and pasted from a Wikipedia list of words of Australian origin – 'Cooker' is listed between 'Bogan' and ''Didgeridoo".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_English_vocabulary#Words_of_Australian_origin
I understand that there are people who oppose government pandemic response who don’t believe in conspiracy theories about the Covid-19 pandemic, for instance some of those opposed to vaccine mandates or MIQ.
Ta
I’ve added the link to your comment for the convenience of others.
"Gunn is fascinating because she’s obviously disconnected from reality in important ways without being classically mentally ill. She’s also probably dangerous."
"Gunnites"?
(Those who align with Liz's thinking?)
That'd be a sub-group but a definite measure; you could ask, "Do/did you support Liz Gunn's New Zealand Loyal parties pronouncements 🙂
Gunnites works! Seems an appropriate term for that subset.
My understanding is that the pejorative form of the word 'cooked' is associated with meth, as in 'cooking' meth. The implication is the target of the pejorative is impaired by drug use. It's use is far wider than applying to covid (I was called a 'cooker' for supporting wider tree protections in Auckland); it's become a lazy go-to for people who prefer labelling people than understanding or discussing their point of view.
pretty much. Or even people who prefer labelling people than understanding them enough to have a meaningful political critique.
Labeling?
Isn't that what you are seeking to do here, weka?
"Cooker" has enough objection here for it to be rejected, it seems to me.
Finding a new, appropriate lable is quite tricky but also quite fun, imo.
dunno. I guess it depends on what you mean by label 😉
Terms are useful for shorthand. I use leftie a lot despite it having quite the range of meanings. Language is about communication, and the goal here is to look at whether certain language is used and understood as intended, and whether that's useful or not.
The pejorative form may be, but the light-hearted form isn't.
"Nazi" is rarely used light-heartily, cooker often is, imo.
Good to hear of your work with trees.
English is a wonderfully inventive language – so how about "covidents"
Covid-dense?
tempting, but I think it opens itself to misuse (see the comments above about misuse of cooker).
Let's face it
Back in those days anyone who questioned the govt response, or even possible quibbles about Pfizers trials (as published by the BMJ)were absolutely pilloried and mocked .
I myself noticed a kind of patriotic fervor in myself,….sacrificing for the common good !….buying the Ashley tea towel…privately judging others.."no way is that a bubble!!"
that I'm not now all that happy about.
At the time children had very little risk, they were to have the vaccine to protect their grannies.
But was that justified?re the fact that transmission wasn't blocked by the vaccine and generally children weren't affected badly enough by the virus to develop full blown symptoms
Yes there was a tiny risk we were all made aware of
A very few young children died of covid.
But when people died of vaccine related myocarditis those deaths were valued differently
In that climate of obedience to the science there was a very real struggle to have vaccine associated injury recognized and treated. Thank goodness for those people who did go against the current and speak up
"Spoke"..
A lot of this seems like how people behaved rather than any official insights (which were backed by evidence). In particular Children under 12 were never expected to get vaccinated and the health departments message indicated the risk of unvaccinated under 12s being severely effected by covid was thought extremely small. I also never saw any official suggestion that transmission was blocked by the vaccine. The suggestion was that the severity of infection would be limited by the vaccine making people less infectious, but officially nothing stronger was ever presented (or tested in trials).
I also was well aware of the few vaccine related myocarditis deaths as these were reported in NZ. It shouldn't be a trade off, buy these would likely have been treated by those people with symptoms after vaccine seeking medical advice. The 'advice' presented by the anti-vaccine groups was not to be aware of the risks but instead to be exposed to the virus unvaccinated, and this always carried higher risk of myocarditis than vaccination.
I gathered that those at risk of myocarditis were also the group unlikely to suffer severe effects from covid .
The govt was strongly encouraging parents to get their children vaccinated.
There were social consequences for those that chose not to , just as there were in the wider population
Personal anecdotes available.
I also remember the struggle for young women to have recognized changes in their menstrual cycles and also their endemetriosis post vaccine.
They were also called anti science and hysterical until it was validated.
We are still learning the effects of covid and the vaccine .
Science is science because scientists are always re evaluating according to new evidence.
Blind faith is not helpful
Those at most risk of myocarditis from the vaccine were younger males from 12 to 17
Those at most risk of myocarditis from covid infection were males over 50.
One group is not the same as the other
None of us were forced to take the vaccine but there was a very strong expectation in the public messaging that we would be selfish and negligent leading to our grannies deaths if we
didnt
Overall
I have no regrets at being fully vaccinated, but I did have some qualms about the messaging
"I gathered that those at risk of myocarditis were also the group unlikely to suffer severe effects from covid ."
I don't think this is relevant (and I assume you mean younger males are at higher risk of this adverse vaccine effect?). As far as I am aware the mechanism for myocarditis is the same in both the vaccine and via infection. This means its a question of risk trade off. All the studies demonstrated reduced risk of adverse effects from covid infection after vaccination in all age cohorts. Even in this age cohort its trading off accepting a larger risk for a significantly smaller risk (which could also be mitigated by decent vaccination follow up).
The only thing I do think that the health department could have done better was to recognise that this vaccine needed to be injected muscularly, and that the standard practice in NZ didn't check that the injection had not directly penetrated a blood vessel (this check can discomfort the patient). The procedure for administration should have been part of the vaccinator training as soon as this was understood and this may have significantly reduced (maybe eliminated) this risk.
"The govt was strongly encouraging parents to get their children vaccinated."
Not U12s as far as I observed. There was a track on the vaccination rate, but every message I saw was very clear that U12s didn't need to be vaccinated for participation in any kind of activity.
Those most at risk of myocarditis from the covid vaccine were young men between 12 and 17.
Those most at risk from myocarditis from covid infection were older men after the age of 50
And the govt was strongly encouraging parents to get their 5-11 year old children vaccinated
https://www.beehive.govt.nz/release/government-confirms-covid-19-vaccinations-protect-tamariki
Once again, no one was forced to have the vaccine, but there were strong pressures produced by the public messaging that had social consequences .
I'm pretty sure the science said that people who were vaccinated shed less covid and so were less likely to infect others.
Nobody scientific was saying that covid transmission was "blocked" by having a vaccination.
It is generally accepted that the Jacinda/Ashley approach saved 15-20,000 NZ lives compared with Boris's ham fisted efforts.
The inference was that younger people should be vaccinated to save their grannies .As younger people were less inclined to have severe covid and therefore less inclined to be shedding, the connection between getting vaccinated and saving granny wasn't quite correct .But it served a purpose.
I don't think is quite true. With earlier variants, vaccination helped prevent transmission.
Also, most vaccination works because populations do it. It is inherently an act of solidarity as well as personal protection. The narrative that said we shouldn't vaccinate children to save old people because children shouldn't be expected to help old people by personal sacrifice, is odd to me. But then I think old people are worth saving and I see the benefits to children of both having old people around and of being involved in protecting them. Likewise helping people with health disabilities.
I think the lockdowns did more to prevent transmission .Transmission was never tested for in the vaccine ,but I do remember the puzzlement when people started getting covid two or more times after the vaccine ,.There was uncertainty around it, as in , is this residual from the first infection?Why is this happening ?
It was a setback.Like a lot of things, we were learning as we went, there were no certainties, as in the masking.First absolutely not required, then required in all public places.It took a while before we realised it was transmitted aerially.
I suggest we still have a long way to go.Science is not fixed or settled, we test what we think we know all the time.
I was thinking about this recently too, about how much we didn't know at the start and having to err on the side of caution. People leaving their delivered groceries to sit for three days, hospital staff doing major cleanse routines before going into their home they shared with vulnerable people. It was full on and understandable. Reasonable imo too.
I think there was a lot of confusion and poor comms around different kinds of vaccinations. Probably the health bods assumed people knew that some vaccines don't prevent all instances of a disease, but we really needed clear and persistent explanations about that and we just didn't get them.
Yes lock down was a big part of it. And masks and hygiene etc. We needed all the things. That too was hard for some to get their head around at the time.
The lockdowns were effective at the time, but only with the earlier variants. NZ (and Australia) was fortunate in being able to effectively close its borders and put all entries through quarantine. The same approach would simply not have worked in places like the UK however as they are more connected and by the time this was operational you would have been years of constant lockdowns away from allowing free movement in any country where that was tried. NZ started lockdowns with still a reasonably small number of cases in NZ which is why you could see they had a limited time frame.
By the time NZ was vaccinating delta variant was arriving and due to its higher infection rate NZ quarantine was becoming no longer effective. Omicron was worse again and there was probably a case per day getting through quarantine and infecting people after arriving into NZ.
Heroes of the resistance.
Just kidding.
Will have a think, although a term is still risking implying a hive mind. As I have said before, in regards to those who gathered on Parliament grounds, there was diversity in the motivations for the congregation.
quite. We have the same problem with terms like left and liberal. I don't think that is insurmountable, it's that we just need to develop language for a new political dynamic and cohorts that have arisen.
The most accurate, encompassing and respectful descriptor may be 'people whom I disagree with'.
…on a number of issues, however…
Surely it is way more constructive and beneficial to both parties to seek what there is in common?
And no, not the cohort you mentioned at 5.3, but those who aren't right out on the fringe.
Are those from the "cooker" party 🙂 seeking recognition of that commonality, do you think? Is there anything you can point-to that would illustrate that?
My Nana said it was rude to answer a question with a question.
Surely it is way more constructive and beneficial to both parties to seek what there is in common?
What was your question? You didn't ask one. Surely your Nana would have known that 🙂
Maybe your Nana could have shown you what question marks mean.I understood GSays question and agree with him.I would answer his question with the word yes
It's easy enough to put a question-mark at the end of a sentence that isn't a question.
I read it as a question .Maybe a rhetorical question, but still a question you could give a yes or no answer to.
What was the question?
Please (my Nana encouraged the use of good manners 🙂
The question as I read it was , and this is a paraphrase "Surely its more useful to find common ground ?" GSays not laying down the law, gently enquiring
I'll ask it too
Do we exclude, or do we find common ground?
"Surely" makes it a statement, not a question, but I know what you've taken from the comment, so…it's, imo, wiser to keep your enemies close 🙂 Maintaining lines of communication and a friendly atmosphere is sensible. My question is: are those-who-are-sometimes-referred-to-as-cookers acting in that way? Or are they excluding themselves by communicating at closed meetings, on less-used social media sites etc?
Well when you use such an inexact term as "cooker"you can't with any confidence predict their behavior
We had friends who absolutely were not going to get the vaccine
But they treated our decision with respect, didn't visit us during lockdown and kept in touch via phone
I could never call them cookers or even anti vaxxers .They are our friends and respect our choices.
"cooker" is an "inexact term"?
Can you provide a more exact…term..?
Well I thought I already had by suggesting covid dissidents
And I wouldn’t presume to have any clue about how such a varied group communicates
It would be just as varied as their rationales
The thing is you can't be exact when covering a whole group of people with differing motivations.
You can at least be peaceable and respectful by using a broad term that's not insulting .
"The thing is you can't be exact when covering a whole group of people with differing motivations.
You can at least be peaceable and respectful by using a broad term that's not insulting ."
Indeed.
Can you suggest …a broad term that's not insulting" ?
Really?
I suggested …as you know.. "covid dissidents"to cover that broad group
Thanks Fransesca, more important things came up in my day…
As they do Gsays!!
Id suggest the quantity is irrelevant…and it is also reciprocal.
It's just occurred to me 'cooker' is a thought terminating cliche.
Straight out of the Denton Document. Don't discuss the issue, pillory the messenger.
Words, eh!
Leon Redbone addresses the issue:
Act voter, springs to mind as a suitable name
(With the radical cookers coalescing around Winston)
I know 3 ,ones was in full p addiction (14 months clean now wohooo) 1 is full libertarian and ones a fear full alternative lovey, hard to get one name for them in all honesty.
we just haven't coined the language yet.
But think about who here might be covered by the term leftie, and the range of beliefs involved.
weka
Bill
Ad
micky savage
Lprent
then
bwaghorn
Robert Guyton
Rosemary McDonald
Adam
Joe90
Anne
Visubversa
etc.
Another suggestion:
SURD – Self-obsessed U-[your choice of adjective] Rationality Denier.
Kind of apt, seeing that "surd" is another term in maths for an irrational number (i.e. one which can't be expressed as a ratio of two whole numbers, such as √5). Lends itself to such expansions as ab-surd, etc.
(If you include the "O" as well from "obsessed" you get SOURD – also rather fitting, as it's French for deaf.)
Please don't use that word as an insult. I am Deaf myself and I do not appreciate that word being used to insult other people whether it is in French or English, thanks.
Fair cop, RoG. That was thoughtless of me. I'd delete that final para if I could (maybe one of the mods could do it for me?).
Thanks!
Nope.
Forecasted costs associated with long covid (PASC) are astronomical and a study showed that vaccination and multiple boosters dramatically lower the risk of long covid (PASC).
Those actively opposing measures that mitigate the impact of covid on the community deserve every pejorative coming their way.
those that actively oppose measures to retain women's sex based rights deserve every pejorative coming their way.
There are plenty of things that the mainstream did to make LC the disaster it is too. Including people here who are agin covid dissidents.
Meanwhile, on TS, that's how flame wars happen and then communities implode. And I'm not going to moderate a bubble of sanctimony.
Except that all of the restrictive measures (apart from facemasks in A&E wards in hospitals) – have been removed. There is no requirement for vaccination, for masking, for social distancing, for limits on gatherings, or any of the other 'Covid restrictions' which happened in 2020 & 2021.
All of those people who resisted those measures (whether passively or actively) then, are indistinguishable from the rest of 'the community', now. They haven't changed their behaviour, we have.
[Yes, Yes, I know there are some people who still mask in public – less than 1 in 500 from my observation – they are the outliers, now]
I have had 6 covid vacs now Bella…oddly few of the pro vaccine people I know have kept up with their vaccines despite knowing full well they should have.
really good point about behaviour change.
Do we know their behaviour hasn't changed? Next time perhaps they will be a little more socially conscious knowing their predicted mass deaths and birth anomalies from the mRNA vaccine haven't eventuated.
My behaviour has changed. I'd not had a flu vaccine until before last winter when I did the double (flu and Covid). I'll probably do this from now on but would have been unlikely to were it not for the pandemic.
"Next time perhaps they will be a little more socially conscious knowing their predicted mass deaths and birth anomalies from the mRNA vaccine haven't eventuated."
Ha! Those who predicted that, believe it more than ever before, thanks to their gullibility, their crack-pot social media feeds and the "obvious cover-up" of "their" whistleblower, doncha know!
"I know there are some people who still mask in public"
Me, for one. And all vaxxes up to date. When you've a disabled partner with at least two co-morbidities, you can't afford to chance it. I've only recently stopped keeping my going-out clothes separate from my indoor ones. But I still sanitise on entering any store, and wash and sanitise after coming home.
Yes. But the point is that you are now the outlier. The rest of the community isn't following any stringent anti-infection protocols.
Suppose we're all outliers in one way or another, desperately wanting to fit in.
If it's any comfort, I've also kept my and my elderly father's and step-father's vaccinations against Covid-19 current, and mask up in crowded indoor spaces such as supermarkets and theatres.
So, we can be outliers taking health precautions together. Those precautions really aren't that much of an inconvenience, and have been effective – so far.
https://www.sciencemediacentre.co.nz/2023/12/18/covid-19-over-the-holidays-expert-reaction/
https://covid19.govt.nz/
Well Joe , you better come to this neck of the woods and protest.Covid is absolutely rampant in the area, no one wears masks, there is no campaign up and running for people to keep their vaccines up to date, super spreader events go unrestricted and people are still getting sick and dying of covid
The problem is that the 'them' are not a homogenous group. Their views are often nuanced, and in some cases are worthy of consideration.
The term 'dissident' has been suggested, but dissident generally means someone who opposes official policy. I would suggest that if you consider the totality of the official response towards Covid (including the lock downs and mandates) the 'them' may end up being a hell of a big group!
Nimps – Not In My Personal Space.
Nimps is good and cuts to the heart of the matter; "Get your needle out of MY arm!"
There are many forms of science denial from chemical to biological. They overlap in some places, but not others. It would be hard to find an all encompassing term to cover that sort of range.
completely agree. I just pointed out the problem with referencing Scientific American when calling other people anti-scientific 😈
I'm not asking for a term for anti-scientific people though (whatever that means in this context).
The recently screened Breathless on TV1 was a potent reminder of the chaos in British hospitals when Covid was rampant three plus years ago. That same chaos never happened here due to necessary steps taken by Government and health experts.
However, I will never ever forget the then National opposition screaming "Open the Borders" almost on a daily basis. Only concerned about businesses struggling but no concern for people's health, or pressure on our hospitals. Just as cold and cynical as the last edict "keep smoking kiwis, we want your tobacco taxes".
And, critically, they largely worked together, unlike in the UK, where the NHS and govt often worked against each other, particularly in the early stages of the pandemic.
Well said, Drowsy.
Just as concerning as the widespread infections and the almost unsustainable pressure on the health system was the apparent desire on the authorities' part to hide the true state of affairs and persecute anyone who dared to break the silence.
+100 Reality
If we're banning words, could we also do away with the word woke? If the test is pejorative or not, woke is certainly pejorative.
it's not the only criteria (and it's not a ban), but give me three examples on TS of what you mean and I'll take a look.
Agreed, it's probably not the only test. Others might be whether the word is widely accepted by the mainstream, or has been in use for a long time.
Oddly (or not) the use of the word woke here has reduced since the the departure of Jacinda Ardern…and Redlogix.
woke is a problematic word for a whole bunch of reasons. It's not at the top of my radar of issues in the commentariat on TS.
With very few temporary exceptions, we don’t ban words here on TS as such. We moderate on intentional behaviour that runs counter the site’s Policy and if/when this becomes pattern behaviour, we ban the commenter after one or more warnings depending on the severity of the behaviour.
Ok, I wrote that after reading weka's comment:
I guess people using the word woke can't fall foul of the policy because we're mostly woke lefties and need a good telling off every now and then.
"My thinking rn is to limit its use"
So, not a ban on "cooker" but a use-limit" somehow..?
How might that work?
someone uses the word cooker pejoratively, I ask them to stop, they either do, or they don't and they cop a ban. Usual process and pretty much what I did with terf.
You are missing the point. The use of certain words/language can be trigger points for moderation of intentional behaviour, especially when used in a repetitive habitual manner (i.e. over-used) although it then often tends to lose its original meaning (e.g. misused) and become ‘weaker’ bordering on meaningless and therefore useless (in/for robust debate). As always, it depends on the context and, as always, it depends on sound & fair judgement.
With written communication, as we do here on TS, it’s much harder to interpret meaning and intention than with in-person face-to-face interaction. Some people are more prone to jumping to (right/wrong) conclusions (e.g. if the shoe fits) than others are. Humans and human communication are fascinatingly beautiful and complex (awesome) and are always richer and more diverse than we can imagine (thankfully).
Not true sorry, I was banned for a year for the use of a word. So you may think what you wrote is how you behave and most of the time it is, but the reality is not so wrapped up in a nice little bow. I stand by what I said by the way. And have learnt all the banned words that their are on the standard. You all have fostered the best and most visceral type of censorship – self censorship.
which mod banned you?
this one?
https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-08-10-2020/#comment-1757390
A 6 month ban because you posted something potentially defamatory and thus put the site owners at legal risk, and then you doubled down and posted it again and had a go at the mods
Not quite being banned for the use of a word is it. I don't remember what the word was, but I'm willing to be it could be used on TS in other contexts and not be a problem.
What you were actually banned for was something else entirely.
actually I can see the original comment in the back end. You accused JK of money laundering for drug cartels. Maybe what you actually meant was that in his previous life in international banking he worked for organisations that turned a blind eye to whose money they were handling, but maybe not, maybe you really meant that FJK personally was knowingly laundering money for drug cartels. Which is defamatory and you can't post things like that on site without evidence.
You could have clarified all that at the time but you didn't.
The thing about TS is that there have been some bad moderations at times. But generally the only content we moderate on is legal risk stuff. The rest is all about behaviour: flaming, trolling, long copypast etc, but mostly wasting moderator time and attacking mods/authors. I don't know what is so hard to understand about this.
case in point. In that same thread, you said,
to which I, who had moderated your defamatory comment, replied,
apologies for telling you to fuck off though.
Nope not that – it was how my expression of my opinion of the US VP which I got banned for a year for. An opinion I stand by, by the way.
Because when people kill your friends sons, you can forgive them – but still think of them as a specific type of scum.
[Again, you fail to back up your accusations with the necessary evidence such as a link to the comment that allegedly resulted in a one-year ban. Weka tried to find it, so I also tried and couldn’t find it either.
So, you have a few days to produce the evidence or I’ll ban you for one year and this time for real – Incognito]
Mod note
My apologies mixed things up. This comment was just censored – it did not get me a ban. Happened around the same time as the 6 month ban (mentioned above by weka) which I thought was a year.
https://thestandard.org.nz/biden-harris/#comment-1740467
Okidoki, apology accepted.
Please do yourself (!) and me a favour and research the difference between censorship and moderation. I’m fed up with accusations of censorship here and will take a hard line from now onwards with anybody who’s stupid enough to go there.
FYI, and a repeat of what I said before in this thread, we moderate mostly on behaviour and particularly patterns of behaviour that run counter to this site’s Policy. The most extreme moderation tool is banning and as such, we ban for behaviour and rarely for words/language only.
Some content might be banned too, e.g., when it is harmful (and we have a low tolerance for violence in any form), defamatory, or puts the site at legal risk and these could be considered as censorship, especially when we also delete the offending parts. However, ideas or ideologies are not banned by default unless it’s the ‘ideology’ of trolling, astroturfing, and/or DP.
Let’s draw a line under this and I hope I will never have to moderate you for this again.
No need to apologies, did not take it personally then, and don't now. You were well within your rights to call it out as you did.
And anyway I was the wanker who started the whole "fuck off" shitfuckery in the first place – So you’re the one who deserves an apology, not me.
So apologies for telling you to fuck off.
In other news, the National/ACT/NZFirst coalition government's record on crime is officially in tatters:
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/police-investigate-nearly-double-usual-rate-of-deaths-over-christmas-and-new-years-holiday-season-following-eight-homicides/BHE44G7EN5FL3IRKPOTS5MHRMI/
Not a great environment out there since the election, clearly.
Unfortunatly theyre still in their able to blame the previous govt time window.
Road toll and murders both up under the new government. The numbers don't lie.
Simeon Brown, asleep at the wheel, Mark Mitchell, at the trigger.
Despite the three headed government campaigning on reducing crime and the road toll.
Oh wait, they didn't campaign on reducing the road toll at all so the increase is in line with their policy.
Didn't they campaign on road toll up (higher speed limits), smoking deaths up (we all know about their daft smoking policy), Maori deaths up (Maori Health Authority) murders up (gun policy) sub-standard domestic water deaths up (3 waters)…hell of a policy platform.
And Dr. CigaReti, at the butt.
Hahaha
Having National in power isn't going to fix this so-call malaise that this country is in
Very disturbing article by George Monbiot in Saturday morning's Guardian. Any NZers known to be connected with this Atlas Network?
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/jan/06/rishi-sunak-javier-milei-donald-trump-atlas-network
(I’ll repeat this post in tomorrow’s Open Mike, as I don’t think many will find it now in this one.)
Together we can ride the sacred cow of 90's ideology to make a new world order, one capital to rule over all indigenous peoples.
https://liberation.typepad.com/.a/6a00d83451d75d69e20134898fa54a970c-500wi
In Greek mythology, Atlas is a Titan condemned to hold up the heavens or sky for eternity.
Ask him a question he cannot answer and if he shrugs … Titan Turkey sandwich, a part fulfillment of Revelation prophecy.
God and mammon – love of imperial coin capitalism.
\_(ツ)_/
What happens if Atlas shrugs?
The billionaire class thinks it is 'Atlas' and by shrugging they abandon all pretence of humanity and bothersome stuff like democracy, tax, or the rule of law.
This myth is supported by a huge propaganda and military machine. But it is a lie. Workers produce the wealth of nations, the 1% are leeches, or the 'vampire squid'.
https://ianwrightsite.wordpress.com/2017/11/16/the-social-architecture-of-capitalism/
One at least, NZ Taxpayers Union. You might want to include this link when you re-post.
https://www.atlasnetwork.org/articles/2023-smart-bets-weekly-highlight-atlas-network-partners-in-lithuania-and-new-zealand