Open mike 11/02/2022

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, February 11th, 2022 - 423 comments
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Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

423 comments on “Open mike 11/02/2022 ”

  1. Peter 1

    Some interesting questions posed when a nude protester was taken by police in a bit of a scuffle.

    In covering the person were the police talking away the person's freedom? Their freedom of choice?

    If a group of people were there nude would there be an effort to single them out from the rest and 'cherry pick' them out of the crowd? For 'offensive behaviour'? Which many might find less offensive than other stuff there.

      • Anker 1.1.1

        Higherstandard "the judge gave him one last opportunity to change".

        The judge is dreaming. His list of offending makes the the chance of him changing fantasy land.

        Horrific crimes.

        • Belladonna 1.1.1.1

          The problem with the 'one last opportunity to change' is that it only really kicks in (for most criminals) when they come out of prison.
          We see so many cases of serious crimes committed by an offender who has just (i.e. less than a year) come out of jail.

          This raises both the question of effective rehabilitation in jail (that's a whole different discussion); but also, the effective supervision and re-integration into society of criminals coming out of jail. Again, I don't think that we (as a society) do this effectively. Both the supervision and the re-integration.

          Pious hopes from judges about 'this being a lesson' and 'last chance to turn your life around' just don't cut the mustard.

          And, as a society, we seem to be unwilling to admit that some people are just 'bad' (however you define that – but either unable or unwilling to change their anti-social behaviour). We need to decide how we protect society from these sociopaths.

      • David H 1.1.2

        Lock him up with a chocolate key, then feed the key to a 5 year old

    • Robert Guyton 1.2

      My feeling about the protester in a wheelchair, arrested yesterday, was that they were removed from the melee for their own protection. Perhaps the same goes for the naked woman – were there concerns for her wellbeing that we are unaware of?

      At least we can say she wasn't collared by the rozzers.

      • Rosemary McDonald 1.2.1

        Of course.

        And dragging her by her hair, throwing her on her face and then putting your big fat cop knee onto her face was also for her own protection?

        True colours shining through on The Standard.

        Message from the Banned.

        • Sanctuary 1.2.1.1

          She wasn't providing a great deal of other handhold points, so I guess a certain degree of expediency came into play.

          Generally the police try to police by consent. However, anyone who has been on the wrong side of the cops know that if they decide that compliance policing is the better option they are enthusiastic proponents of that as well.

        • Tricledrown 1.2.1.2

          Patricia I looked at the video at no time did any police put a knee in her face she was dragged to the ground by her hair where she continued to resist arrest after being handcuffed another police officer covered her with a blanket. She was lead away with the minimum of fuss.

          • Patricia Bremner 1.2.1.2.1

            Do you mean Patricia2 Tricledrown?

          • Rosemary McDonald 1.2.1.2.2

            https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/police-officers-filmed-dragging-naked-protester-by-her-hair-on-parliament-grounds/WIUX2YWMET3BUYZ57IK6I5NPOA/

            Watch all 53 seconds of the video in this Herald article. At 28 seconds kind and sensitive cop kneels down and put his knee on her face/neck/ head. She was not resisting at all…she just did not like the blanket over her face.

            And as for the female cops being sicced on to her showing a degree of sensitivity…yes…but only to avoid potential sexual assault charge.

            • weka 1.2.1.2.2.1

              if we're going to be pedantic about it,

              • they did drag her by her hair (as far as I can see)
              • they didn't throw her on her face, they dropped the upper part of her body to the ground while she was already face down
              • they held her arms behind her back to secure her wrists
              • someone brought over a blanket and put it over her
              • we don't see what happened next because of the blanket
              • she struggles quite strongly and gets her arms free, but it's really unclear what is going on as she then puts her arms back again. Maybe she is reacting to the blanket on her head, or something else?
              • police restrain her arms again
              • a third police walks up quietly and actually quite gentle puts his knee on her the side of her head which is under the blanket, applying pressure to help hold her still while she is cuffed
              • they then lift her by her arms and walk her off

              All of that happens right beside the line of a large crowd being held back by police and multiple arrests going on. I think they did reasonably ok give the circumstances, and we have no idea what happened before they come into view in the video.

              I also think that if she was sitting naked in that line she was putting herself and other people in danger. Naked and/or sitting protests need some kind of organisation, not just random people in amongst everything else. Not saying she was wrong, just that I can't see the police being particularly excessive in response (other than maybe pulling her by her hair, but we don't know what that happened).

              • McFlock

                Oh! Maybe this is what she was going for: the naked BLM protestor a couple of years ago.

                • weka

                  Maybe! Not sure why she had her back to the police though. Or why she was in a crowd of people standing up and being aggressive.

                  • The Chairman

                    You've got it wrong.

                    The police were the aggressors.

                    The frontline crowd were attempting to hold them (the police) back as they were surging the crowd trying to pull people out. Hence, many in the crowd (a large number of which were woman) joined hands and turned their backs to the police.

                    It was amazing to see. A lot of older woman holding their ground

                    • weka

                      You've got it wrong. I was referring to all the people, for whatever reason they were there, that the woman was surrounded by.

                    • The Chairman

                      I was referring to all the people, for whatever reason they were there, that the woman was surrounded by.

                      So was I.

                      This is a peaceful protest. Most (albeit, you will always get a few loose units in any large crowds where tensions are high) had no intent of ill will. Hence there has largely been no trouble until the police create it.

                      And didn't they stuff up? Their (the police) actions merely resulted in more people coming and tents being setup.

                    • Muttonbird

                      There's an article by Charlie Mitchell on today's OM which sets out the violent intentions of the disparate groups of ringleaders.

                      Would you have preferred to see a Trump style riot and storming of NZ's parliament?

                      Perhaps you would at that.

                      [next time, put the link in your comment. Because as you can see, someone has responded and said something I have to moderate and then I have to go look for the article you didn’t link – weka]

                    • weka []

                      mod note for you.

                    • The Chairman

                      Charlie Mitchell is a lying egg. Did you not see the hit he did on liz?

                      Would you have preferred to see a Trump style riot and storming of NZ's parliament?

                      Don't be stupid. Of course not. The protesters could have taken parliament on day one if that was the intent. Which clearly it isn't.

                      Can you not see any attempt to paint them (the protesters) in a bad light gives the authorities more justification to attack them? This is the current game being played online and in the media.

                      So, the way I see it is you are either dumb and naively playing into it, or you are part of it.

                      [please provide evidence that Mitchell is lying. Evidence must be a quote and link, and an explanation from you about what you think is a lie. If you cannot do that, please withdraw your comment clearly. If you waste my time as a moderator, expect to be removed from commenting for the day – weka]

                      [banned one day. Next time, follow what I say in the mod note. In this case you didn’t provide an explanation about you think is the lie, and you expected me to watch something and parse what you mean. That’s wasting my time – weka]

                    • weka []

                      mod note for you, please respond as a priority. You’re in premod until this is resolved.

                    • weka []

                      final mod note

                    • Muttonbird

                      @ Weka. Apologies, there were two consecutive comments on OM about the Charlie Mitchell article, my own and Jenny's. I made the conscious choice to not relink because I thought two times was enough. Felt like I would be spamming if I did???

                      Can’t help it if The Chairman isn’t interested.

                    • weka

                      it would be spam if you were saying the same thing over and over. But saying something new and linking to an article already posted in another thread is fine.

              • Rosemary McDonald

                I also think that if she was sitting naked in that line she was putting herself and other people in danger.

                She was part of a protest ffs. Don't know how many protests you've participated in, but when you front up it is with the understanding that it is not tiddlywinks. Especially when the police are pushing against your peaceful line with all their might.

                End the mandates. Learn to be like Denmark and learn to live with the virus.

                Of course protect the vulnerable…but let the rest get on with their lives and build up natural immunity.

                Such a pity our government failed to significantly boost our public health system, welcome all and every doctor and nurse who wanted to live here…given them first priority in MIQ…and issue advice to those at home who were battling the virus.

                • weka

                  She was part of a protest ffs. Don't know how many protests you've participated in, but when you front up it is with the understanding that it is not tiddlywinks. Especially when the police are pushing against your peaceful line with all their might.

                  I've been in a few. But sitting down while everyone else is standing and heaving is fucking stupid. Assuming that is what happened, I don't actually know. Maybe she fell over.

                  Being in that crowd in bare feet is also daft.

                  There's a difference between being willing to take personal risks, and doing so in stupid ways.

                  • solkta

                    I couldn't believe the number of people being arrested who had bare feet. Not as stupid as not wearing a mask, but close.

                    • weka

                      so not just her? Wow. I wear bare feet a lot, but there are situations I just wouldn't go barefoot (out of concern for my feet and general safety) and that's one of them.

                  • Rosemary McDonald

                    Bare feet….so if they had turned up in steel toe capped boots could they still have claimed to be peaceful?

                    They dressed according to their intent.

                    • weka

                      yeah, because the only options are barefeet or steel caps 🙄

                      They dressed according to their intent.

                      So was their intent to be in a rowdy, crowded protest in barefeet? Or was their intent that they wouldn't get trespassed? Or what?

                    • The Chairman

                      They dressed according to their intent.

                      Indeed.

                      @ weka

                      The intent was and still is a peaceful protest. Hence, many (perhaps naively) weren't expecting the aggression they received on the second day.

                • Tony Veitch (not etc.)

                  Learn to be like Denmark and learn to live with the virus.

                  Like Denmark and learn to die with the virus: 51,000+ cases and 29 deaths yesterday.

                  No thanks!

                • Drowsy M. Kram

                  Covid-19: How to look after yourself if you catch the virus

                  Prof Sam McConkey, an expert in infectious diseases at the Royal College of Surgeons in Ireland describes the essence of Ramanathan’s management plan as “very reasonable” and says it is full of what he describes as “grandmother treatments”, a term he makes clear he is not using disparagingly.

                  My [His] advice: Watch Ramanathan’s video. It might make those with Covid-19 feel a little better a little faster. And it definitely won’t make you any worse.

                  ⚠️Please note: The best protection from having a severe outcome from COVID-19 infection is to get #getcovidvaccinated and #boosted 💉asap if you are eligible to do so. #vaccineswork #vaccinessavelives

                  Thanks for that, Rosemary. I share Dr Ramanathan's opinions on the health benefits of getting vaccinated and boosted against Covid.

                  I’ll give you my mask when you pry it from my cold, dead face!

        • Kiwijoker 1.2.1.3

          I wasn’t aware that John Key had joined the police.

        • Jimmy 1.2.1.4

          But why was she totally naked in the middle of a large crowd? I know it was pretty hot but naked?

          • Rosemary McDonald 1.2.1.4.1

            She was not being a threat in any way. People, especially women, are at their most vulnerable naked.

            She was making a statement that she had no weapons and was sitting down, naked with her back to the police line.

            There have been many copies made of the full footage that have gone viral worldwide. NZ's finest hour.

    • Sanctuary 1.3

      That particular individual was sitting down in front of the police. Anyone who has experienced the dynamics of a crowd in an agitated state know how highly dangerous that is to her. There would have been a very high chance she was removed simply for her own safety, not that she would have seen it that way.

      I must say though that wandering around naked in Wellington at any time of the year is clearly more evidence of global warming.

      • Ross 1.3.1

        wandering around naked in Wellington at any time of the year is clearly more evidence of global warming.

        Well, it is summer. 🙂

      • solkta 1.3.2

        From what i could see they were arresting anyone who sat down.

        • McFlock 1.3.2.1

          Probably on obstruction charges. If you're standing, you're going somewhere. As soon as you sit, you're blocking the public way and they nab you. So everyone sits down together. It's not hard lol

      • Anker 1.3.3

        Sanctuary you are right there about Wellington temperatures and global warming. Right now it feels sub tropical.

  2. Robert Guyton 2

    Chris Trotter looks into the issue:

    "Every person is liable to a fine not exceeding $1,000 who, without reasonable excuse, obstructs any public way and, having been warned by a constable to desist,—

    (a) continues with that obstruction; or

    (b) does desist from that obstruction but subsequently obstructs that public way again, or some other public way in the same vicinity, in circumstances in which it is reasonable to deem the warning to have applied to the new obstruction as well as the original one."

    https://bowalleyroad.blogspot.com/2022/02/policing-protests-then-and-now.html

    • higherstandard 2.1

      I know most here have an active dislike of kiwiblog but Farrar sums up how many in Wellington and further afield probably feel.

      People have a right to protest peacefully, especially against government decisions that directly affect them.

      So I’m all for the right of those who protested this week, to have done so.

      But there is a difference between peaceful protest and disruption. Those who engaged in violence against the Police should be prosecuted, and those who refuse to leave the grounds of Parliament after being trespassed should be removed forcibly. There is a difference between a protest rally and an occupation.

      https://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2022/02/the_anti-mandate_protests.html

      • Muttonbird 2.1.1

        Government opponents like Farrar, National, ACT, Groundswell, FSU, TPU, etc, are desperate to put as much distance between them and the protestors as possible, even though they are ideologically similar and want the same thing. That is, less focus on health, and more focus on Freedumb.

        • higherstandard 2.1.1.1

          🙄

        • AB 2.1.1.2

          Yes – the establishment right are uncomfortably ideologically adjacent to at least some of what the protesters want. It's a gradation from one to the other without a clear boundary – as fringe National MPs such as Pugh and Hipango, and ex-MPs such as Goudie and Matt King demonstrate.

          Hence Luxon's desperation to create some separation from them. He knows that there is a common view that when it comes to Covid, the National Party leadership has been a parade of four reckless clowns since 2020.

    • Ross 2.2

      Martin Luther King was a bad bugger. He was arrested 29 times and even served time in the big house for civil disobedience. The protesters in Wellington are amateurs in comparison.

      King did make the valid point that “One has not only a legal, but a moral responsibility to obey just laws. Conversely, one has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws.” Some anti-anti-vaxxers don’t seem to get that.

      https://www.blackhistory.com/2019/11/martin-luther-king-jr-was-arrested-29-times-crimes.html?m=1

      • McFlock 2.2.1

        The anti-vaxxers aren't refusing to obey unjust laws. They're demanding the right to spread a virulent disease.

        • Ross 2.2.1.1

          Observer

          Sorry I was too subtle for you. Try re-reading, it might sink in.

        • Rosemary McDonald 2.2.1.2

          Many of the attendees are double shot McFlock. Many. This is a protest against the unjustifiable mandates for a product that does not prevent infection or transmission…. and only helps with severe illness, hospitalisation and death for a short time.

          For a variant of a virus that is largely mild.

          Too easy and extremely lazy of you to simply parrot mainstream media and government propaganda. Relentless though it is.

          • solkta 2.2.1.2.1

            Many of the attendees are double shot McFlock. Many.

            I really don't believe that. They can't even take covid seriously enough to put on a mask in what is almost certainly a super spreader event. Not one of them. That makes them probably crazier than you.

          • McFlock 2.2.1.2.2

            Right, so that would explain the swastika sprayed on a plinth, "hang 'em high" written on the path, the woman saying she'll divorce her husband because he got a booster…

            This is a coalition of the pilling, with "anti mandate" being a thin veil for broad-spectrum stupidity. Including antivaxxers.

            It's easy to mock this crowd, because they're very mock-able. With omicron cases in my region now, I can do with a laugh. This side show does seem to consistently deliver the goods.

          • weka 2.2.1.2.3

            Many of the attendees are double shot McFlock. Many.

            So? They deliberately attending a potential super spreader event while there is covid in the community and not taking precautions, in direct contravention of public health orders and initiatives. This puts the police, the community, and the wider country at risk.

            My assumption is that there are fair number of people there that either don't believe covid is a thing, or don't care.

            • Rosemary McDonald 2.2.1.2.3.1

              weka. Practically all of the community has partaken of the Pfizer Shot. The boosters are being rammed into thousands of arms as we converse. Surely you trust that the Pfizer Product will protect the compliant? So what are your concerns? The sooner Omicron does it's thing the better…while the weather is good and we have enough hours of sunshine.

              Those of us not shot have our reasons(not that anyone here would respect those reasons but never mind) and are willing to live or die with the consequences. Of course many of us are taking appropriate precautions.

              I will wear a mask when its demanded…but I did create a bit of a stir in PaknSave last week when a lady waiting in the neighbouring checkout wearing a N95 type mask needed to sit down as she was passing out. Her ribcage was heaving, so I yelled out to her to take off her mask so she could actually breathe. Twice I yelled…ignoring the scowls from other shoppers… and finally she pulled the thing down under her chin and took 1/2 a dozen lungfulls of fresh air. Her mouth and nose were blue.

              She whispered a quiet 'thank you' as she joined her whanau in her checkout….but for fucks sakes…would you and your scared friends really have preferred she became really ill just to protect YOU who are protected by the jab AND also wearing a mask? Do you not know of anyone who has collapsed because they can't breathe, or are breathing in CO2?

              The vast majority of the kids not vaccinated will be fine. Seriously…they will.

              • weka

                weka. Practically all of the community has partaken of the Pfizer Shot. The boosters are being rammed into thousands of arms as we converse. Surely you trust that the Pfizer Product will protect the compliant? So what are your concerns?

                I don't know if you are incredibly stupid, or incredibly disingenuous, but this has been explained to you many times. It's not that you disagree, it's that you misrepresent. You should by now understand the basic position, and yet here you are basically lying about it, again.

                It's pretty hard to take anything else you say seriously. Not because we disagree, plenty of people I disagree with but still respect. But because you're now running lines that are just a basic nonsense and nothing to do with what anyone on the pro-vaccine side is claiming.

                • Rosemary McDonald

                  No it hasn't 'been explained to me many times'.

                  Not in any way that makes any sense with respect to the justification for the vaccine mandates. What you are seeing in Wellington is just a tiny demonstration of the damage done by the for -all -intents- and -purposes forced injections with a novel pharmaceutical.

                  You can waffle on (again) about public health measures etc…but you have not as yet explained why we all have to be jabbed.

                  Why children? Who are at effectively no risk from Covid? Why university students and young adults? Who are also at next door to no risk from Covid but are from myocarditis? Lives are being ruined to protect who?

                  The old and vulnerable who have theoretically taken the Pfizer? And are safe and protected?

                  Surely you don't think this crazy can go on forever? The young people need to get on with their lives.

                  We need to show some maturity and realize, like the Danes have, that we need to learn to live with this.

                  • solkta

                    Yes she has explained it to you. It is like fucking Groundhog Day.

                  • weka

                    I have explained it to you, multiple times. What you are doing here is pretending that I haven't so you can run your lines that there's no good reason for vaccination. It's a bullshit political debate technique because it misrepresents the thing you are arguing against.

                    If your position is strong, then it doesn't hurt to understand the opposition, and argue against what it really is not what you are trying to project on to it.

                    • weka

                      I don't actually have a problem with the protest in and of itself. There are huge problems with aspects of it, but that people are pissed about all sorts of things to do with how the country is run is zero surprise to me.

                      The people I know were pissed before the mandates, lets not forget that.

        • The Chairman 2.2.1.3

          The anti-vaxxers aren't refusing to obey unjust laws. They're demanding the right to spread a virulent disease.

          Rubbish.

          Even a fourth Pfizer jab has been reported as being largely ineffective in blocking Omicron.

          https://www.timesofisrael.com/israeli-trial-worlds-first-finds-4th-dose-not-good-enough-against-omicron/

          • McFlock 2.2.1.3.1

            That "largely" is doing a lot of heavy lifting.

            And yet even that article said that the infection rate was lower than the control group.

            What do the researchers regard as "not good enough"? 20%? 50%? 80%? Not good enough to do what: lower the r0 below 1 by itself? Slow the spread of infections at all? Keep the hospitalisation rate manageable by itself, without masks or restrictions of any kind?

      • observer 2.2.2

        If they didn't like the Jim Crow laws, they shouldn't have chosen to be black, should they?

        Analogy: absurd fail.

      • Patricia Bremner 2.2.3

        yes paragraph 2

    • Stuart Munro 2.3

      I'm not sure where Trotter gets the idea police might have to resort to deadly force – but that line is about as wrong as it gets.

      There used to be, and probably still is, a thing called the Riot Act, whereby crowds can be ordered to disperse, and arrested if they don't. Plenty of tools in the box.

      But police efforts to date look to have been very restrained – non-violent where possible. This is not easy in the face of sometimes considerable provocation and intemperate resistance. I think the police are to be congratulated on their professionalism.

  3. Grey Area 3

    Maybe I'm missing something here but how is it more people are arriving to protest in the grounds of Parliament and setting up new gazebos (according to the lead item currently on Stuff)?

    New barriers have been erected on the forecourt but people seem to able to enter and leave freely from Molesworth Street.

    If it's against Parliament's rules to erect structures on the grounds why aren't people being stopped from bringing more stuff in?

    • Cricklewood 3.1

      Likely to be quite a big bump in numbers from this afternoon onwards. Busses and other vehicles left Auckland about 6am this morning and more leaving from around the country. Looks like people are taking their kids down as well now. It's going to make it very difficult for police.

      • Ross 3.1.1

        To be fair, we’ve had long term protests at Shelley Bay and Ihumātao. The police tolerated those protests for the most part and continue to do so in the case of the former. The protest outside Parliament is small fry in comparison.

        • Grey Area 3.1.1.1

          False equivalence I'd suggest. Ihumatao and Shelley Bay are not in their respective cities' CBD.

          And then there is the symbolism of the occupation of Parliament.

          And then the timing with many businesses fragile.

          So no, not small fry.

          • Peter 3.1.1.1.1

            Ihumatao being compared to the present situation is reasonable in some ways.

            In terms of masses obstructing people going about their ordinary business and getting around the place the comparison is stupid.

            • Belladonna 3.1.1.1.1.1

              I agree that the long-term occupation of Parliament grounds is unprecedented in NZ.
              We have had many examples of protests obstructing people going about their usual business – though usually for shorter periods. Disruption and the consequent media coverage is a large part of the reason for protest.The longer term occupation-as-protest have tended to be away from the city centres.

              However, the extinction rebellion in the UK have absolutely made a feature of obstructing people going about their ordinary business.

              • Cricklewood

                No it's not, anti apartheid protesters camped there for a considerable amount of time.

                • joe90

                  anti apartheid protesters camped there for a considerable amount of time

                  Trying and failing to recall whether or not anyone actually camped at Parliament in 1981.

                  Probably best you put up or STFU, sport.

              • swordfish

                We camped in Parliament grounds for our summer holidays in 2011.

                We were thinking originally of Fiordland but the weather was bad – torrential rain – so looked at the brochure & thought "well,why not ? Parliament looks absolutely ideal !". Set up tents & a barbacue area … took a morning dip in the Beehive swimming pool & enjoyed all the wonderfully colourful wildlife – journos, pollies, parliamentary staff … all with beautiful plummage, witnessed a number of mating rituals & fights over territory.

                All in all, a fantastic getaway. With Park-Warden Mallard always on hand in case of emergency.

                [Brochure below: Parliament Grounds are So Bracing ! … Summer Holidays 2011]

              • William

                It is not unprecedented. In 1975 after the Hikoi led by Whina Cooper reached Parliament a Tent Embassy was setup in the grounds. That was occupied for about six weeks.

          • weka 3.1.1.1.2

            False equivalence I'd suggest. Ihumatao and Shelley Bay are not in their respective cities' CBD.

            It's not the CBD that's the issue, it's that it's at parliament.

            • Grey Area 3.1.1.1.2.1

              "It's not the CBD that's the issue, it's that it's at parliament".

              Which is of course why I said: "And then there is the symbolism of the occupation of Parliament."

              My point about being in the CBD was about the level of disruption.

              • weka

                yes, but the primary issue here for the government and justice system is protecting the ability of the state to not have occupations of the ground outside parliament steps. It's not only symbolic, it's precedent setting and involves security and safety of the people maintaining democracy.

                • Grey Area

                  Totally agree. Sorry I got my points in the wrong order. It was just a quick refuting of what I considered a false equivalence.

          • Ross 3.1.1.1.3

            And then the timing with many businesses fragile.

            Police aren’t intervening because they’re concerned about fragile businesses. And of course the reason they’re fragile is due to Government policy. The protesters are trying to help businesses!

            • Drowsy M. Kram 3.1.1.1.3.1

              The protesters are trying to help businesses!

              Some protesters, maybe. My impression is they're a rabble. More focus please.

              Anti-vaccine mandate protesters at Parliament pitch tents for the night
              As has become a theme with anti-vaccine mandate protests, other causes were on display: opposition to the three waters reforms; Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern or the “lying” mainstream media; and support for Donald Trump and the United States.

              Many wanted “freedom” – though not to the extent of allowing others to wear a mask undisturbed.

              I’ve been here since 1990, and this protest was the most the angry,” Boyce said. “Our staff were being called Nazis, through no fault of their own, treated like absolute trash. All these really sickening types of accusations, absolutely detestable and untrue.

          • alwyn 3.1.1.1.4

            I suspect that you are not a Wellingtonian.

            Technically I would say that Parliament is not in the CDB. Once you get that far there really aren't any more Business premises, or shops. There is little except Government offices and Embassies in the area around Parliament.

            Which doesn't mean that I approve of their actions.

            • mpledger 3.1.1.1.4.1

              They were blocking the top end of Lambton Quay so business were having to deliver stuff across some distance and there are eateries up molesworth street. My work has asked people to work from home.

          • Rosemary McDonald 3.1.1.1.5

            And then the timing with many businesses fragile.

            Not all of the protestors can be described as ' gang members, unemployed, religious nutters, and the great unwashed'.

            https://twitter.com/OrwellianNz84/status/1491612536134770690

            Some of those retirees in their motorhomes are quite well off. They are conditioned to spend $$$ wherever they freedom can't.

            • weka 3.1.1.1.5.1

              yeah, he's a dick. I bet there are some of the protestors that think the same.

              • Blade

                You are denying a cop the right to tell protesters straight what he thinks?

                BTW – the cops have brought batons to the situation.

                Do you reckon they remember how to use them?sad

                • weka

                  You are denying a cop the right to tell protesters straight what he thinks?

                  No, I was saying his opinions make him a dick.

                  Don't know about the value in police expression personal opinions in that situation. Generally I think conversations between police and protestors is a good thing. Hard to say what is going on here.

            • Anne 3.1.1.1.5.2

              A cop is being insulted and provoked by a bunch of jerks so he responds by telling them the truth about themselves?

              Yes, he made a mistake by including the unemployed but apart from that… Good for him. devil

              • Rosemary McDonald

                A cop is being insulted and provoked by a bunch of jerks so he responds by telling them the truth about themselves?

                And you know this how? Care to prove that he was being insulted? Being told that his job is to serve all of the people and to uphold the law does not constitute 'provocation'. I guess some folk simply can't understand that many of us view parliament and the grounds as being ours. That we have the right to be there.

                • McFlock

                  I guess some folk simply can't understand that many of us view parliament and the grounds as being ours. That we have the right to be there.

                  Not if the Speaker doesn't want you there, you don't.

                  Lots of people understand the generalised sense of entitlement that leads to some people insisting that a want is a right. I have had fun disabusing many people of that view. They were generally drunk at the time, and were often law students.

                  • Rosemary McDonald

                    Ever copped a Trespass Notice from Parliament McFlock? What for? You tell me about yours and I'll tell you about mine.

                    • McFlock

                      Nah we all went back to the school hall for tea in the evening, as I recall. Or maybe hit the pubs. It was 25 years ago, can't quite remember – maybe that means it was the pubs? We definitely didn't try setting up tents.

                      And we put a "no fees" sign in Seddon's hand, rather than painting a swastika on his plinth.

                • Anne

                  I guess some folk simply can't understand that many of us view parliament and the grounds as being ours. That we have the right to be there.

                  What you might view and what is reality are two different things. You are NOT entitled to set up camp there. It's not a camping ground. Its a piece of publicly owned property with rules attached to the usage of it – rules that are especially important given its location.

                  As for the video. Its patently obvious it was doctored.. By that I mean there is no context whatsoever around it. Typical of the low-down tactics these deluded types you so admire have adopted from the start.

                  • Rosemary McDonald

                    " it was doctored"…prove it or retract.

                    Others here have told of setting up camp in the grounds of our parliament. Go read them. If the cause is important enough…

                    • Anne

                      You prove it wasn't. And while you're about it… prove he was not taunted and provoked into his response by the jerks who sounded just like, well… a bunch of horrible little jerks.

                • gsays

                  Reminds me of the time a buddy and myself where told to move on by a cop in The Square in Palmy, under threat of trespass.

                  Caused great mirth and merriment for us.

                  Real ironic as he had been at the last local primary school assembly doing the korero about the being the rural liason officer. Lots of talk of trust, building relationships…

      • aj 3.1.2

        I hope they all bring umbrellas. The weather is going to do a lot of the work for the police.

        • weka 3.1.2.1

          overnight too.

            • UncookedSelachimorpha 3.1.2.1.1.1

              Sunday is the best – 50 knot southerly!

              https://www.metservice.com/marine/coastal/locations/cook

              • Anne

                I remember my first encounter with a Wellington southerly 33 years ago. I was on a course and decided to hire a car one weekend and just drive north to wherever the road took me. Ended up on a deserted piece of coastline NE (I think) of Wellington.

                Sitting there in the long grass enjoying the serenity and the beautiful sea views, I looked to the south. The sight scared the pants off me. The clouds which seemed to have appeared out of nowhere were low, glowering black and ominous. I had never seen clouds like it before. That hired car had the best time of its life as we raced at breakneck speed back to the relative safety of the main highway.

                It wasn’t until the next day when describing the scene with colleagues that I discovered I had seen the notorious southerly coming in.

    • joe90 3.2

      A little perspective.

      • weka 3.2.1

        thanks, have been wanting an overhead view, and MSM haven't had any 🙄

        Do you know the date/time of that photo?

        • weka 3.2.1.1

          ta. Is that the full area or is there some we can't see in the photo.

        • joe90 3.2.1.2

          Looking at weather conditions yesterday, I reckon it was taken mid/late morning

        • mpledger 3.2.1.3

          About an hour ago

          • weka 3.2.1.3.1

            I don't know Wellington, so I don't know what I am looking at there.

            • Nic the NZer 3.2.1.3.1.1

              The street running vertically up the photo runs along the front of parliament. The wellington high court is the building on the other side of the road.

            • Shanreagh 3.2.1.3.1.2

              This is a picture taken from the east facing windows of the Old Wooden Buildings looking north along Molesworth street. The Old Wooden Buildings is used as part of the VUW campus (Law)

              The OWB is at the bottom end (north) of Lambton Quay.

              I mentioned that when I went past on Tues evg the cars from the group etc were going into the OWB grounds.

              Just in front of the trees are two large Pou and these are near the lower entrance of the Parliament grounds, informally called 'the snake' or was when I worked there a million years ago. When you look at the live footage from Newshub – on the other side of the trees is on the RHS of the filming.

              The relevance is that Molesworth street provides access to the motorway, the Judiciary, National Library, Archives, The Anglican Cathedral and Thorndon residential areas. It is solidily parked out by cars etc, cars are parked in OWB grounds, on the median strip. Buses come from right to left to go from CBD to suburbs & left to right bring commuters from these suburbs to the bottom end of town. Students use the buses extensively as there are one state and one private secondary schools for girls close by.

              Many will be just starting at these schools and would usually have walked up Molesworth street where all the cars are and then accessed their schools from further north up Mwth st. A young student from one of these schools was harassed by protestors for wearing a mask.

        • Rosemary McDonald 3.2.1.4

          That was yesterday. No cops lining up like that today. Today…many, many more protesters. MSM won't want anyone to see that.

          Settling in for a night of rain and music. Largely happy campers.

      • lprent 3.2.2

        Nice photo. That appears to be a lot of bad parking for so few people.

        • mpledger 3.2.2.1

          Most people just seem to be hanging around their tents, in camp out mode. Apart from having a honking session every hour or so.

          • lprent 3.2.2.1.1

            There seems to have been a few honking up here in Ponsonby as well. Kind of annoying hearing horns going off as they go around and around a block. Makes me want to do something nasty to them when I’m trying to work in this heat.

            It almost makes you wish for the other idiots with their speaker battles.

            Celine Dion siren battlers return to West Auckland, locals at 'breaking point'

            Around here with those ones you just hear them coming off the Motorway after midnight, driving up Newton Rd, ducking the lights up the hill, and then doppling the distorted musak away….

            It always sounds like it comes from a poor quality Tannoy from market somewhere in India in another language sung by someone without a sense of pitch.

            But at least it isn't beep beep by a dickhead with an annoyance fetish.

            On a more serious note about something real, I have to say that the fire-engines, police, and ambulances have been siren active in Auckland last night and today around Newton Rd. The high and erratic winds must have been causing problems. It was a good day to stay inside by the sound of it

            • greywarshark 3.2.2.1.1.1

              Just listening to Celine – not a bad lullaby to go to sleep on. And residents can take heart that the perps are not doing something bad and criminal. They are advertising their good behaviour if they are sitting in their cars and sending out that pop stuff. Gotta look on the bright side …

          • greywarshark 3.2.2.1.2

            Hope they honk into their hankies.

      • UncookedSelachimorpha 3.2.3

        Hopefully someone flys a drone, be interesting to see.

  4. tsmithfield 4

    Getting arrested is probably better for the protesters than being ignored, as is the case with some of the other protests that the police aren't doing anything about.

    It draws the attention of the media and is likely to incite the anger of others of a similar bent.

    Not that I agree with their methods. But, from their perspective, it is probably working out quite well.

  5. Blazer 5

    Auckland house price rise dips='The Auckland region’s average price climbed 7.9 per cent over the same period to hit $1,541,168. This increase rate was down from 9.7 per cent, while the annual rate fell to 27.6 per cent from 29.1 per cent.

    Very good.

    Now they're getting …affordable.Must be the Govt's measures.

    There are strong signs the housing market is easing – QV | Stuff.co.nz

    • Belladonna 5.1

      The rate of increase has slowed. No sign, yet, that prices are falling, or are about to fall. And, TBH, I'd be enormously surprised if there were.

      What we're seeing is that some houses are taking longer to sell – and that there are fewer houses, overall, on the market. Not at all clear if this is associated with Covid restrictions, or associated with the housing market overall – or an intersection of the two factors.

      From the quoted article

      “But with interest rates on the rise, tightening credit conditions and supply pressures now easing, the market was likely to return to a more sustainable level of growth.”

      Moving to a 'sustainable level of growth' in no way makes houses more affordable. It just means that they're becoming even more unaffordable, more slowly.

      “If the floodgates were to open again to new migrants and returning Kiwis at the levels last seen in 2019, then some strength could return to the market as demand for housing increases.”

      I'd say this is highly likely over the next year, as NZers return home; and migrants filling the 'skills in short supply' category are approved (a doctor coming to NZ is absolutely going to want to buy a house)

      We've seen reports that house prices are going to flat-line/fall before – I'll believe it when I see it.

      • Gypsy 5.1.1

        "Moving to a 'sustainable level of growth' in no way makes houses more affordable."

        Precisely. And with the governments net supply of new state rentals at a standstill, the is no sight of either house prices or rentals easing.

    • Gypsy 5.2

      So a 27.6% increase in one year means housing is 'getting affordable"?

    • Sanctuary 6.1

      Why is a libertarian using a public pool?

      • Nic the NZer 6.1.1

        I have it on good authority that no ACT members are libertarians.

      • Gypsy 6.1.2

        Maybe because his taxes helped pay for it?

        • Stuart Munro 6.1.2.1

          Assuming he paid any taxes.

          • Gypsy 6.1.2.1.1

            Are you seriously suggesting he didn't? He was an MP for 15 years. He's worked as a teacher, an economist, a radio commentator, a columnist…Somewhere in there he must have paid some tax.

            • Stuart Munro 6.1.2.1.1.1

              It is well established that libertarians are at best sceptical of the merits of paying tax.

              Private Property and Tax Policy in a Libertarian World: A Critical Review (ubc.ca)

              The correlation between libertarian views and tax evasion proved strong enough to be useful profiling tax evaders for the IRS. As a poster child for extreme libertarian views it would be entirely in character for Mr Hide to minimize his tax losses to an extent that ordinary working people (and possibly the judiciary) would consider beyond the pale.

              • Gypsy

                Can you explain how Hide would 'evade' paying tax on income paid for by Parliamentary Services with tax deducted at source?

    • Muttonbird 6.2

      That's what I was saying earlier. The hard right is wedded to these protestors. While it's true the further towards the centre the right gets, the less visible the support, but it is still there because they share a lot of the same demands.

      Confusing matters for ACT and the FSU is the large presence of Maori separatists (or at least the United Tribes flag). A very strange marriage indeed.

    • Peter 6.3

      Last night I posted elsewhere:

      "Rodney Hide is deficient. And/or a racist cunt. Maybe the first bit is the reason for the second bit."

      I heard him in the aftermath of the last election in a discussion on radio. (I think it was with Sean Plunket. There was another guest as well.) There was a discussion about the Maori Caucus and the 'Maori bloc.'

      There were concerns about the agenda of that group. This is paraphrased but the words were virtually these: "Thing is when we went in as a bloc we were doing it for New Zealand."

      Maori politicians aren't doing it for New Zealanders? Oh, whatever they're doing is for Maori? Only for Maori? Oh, and of course, Maori aren't New Zealanders.

      No doubt Hide is in the "Ardern is dividing New Zealand" camp. When senior political figures as blind, stupid and ignorant as Hide are taken seriously, the gravity of the state of the nation is obvious.

      • Gypsy 6.3.1

        If you think Maori are beyond getting together and engineering change that benefits them but not 'others', then you are the one who is racist.

  6. Anne 7

    Mother Nature in the form of Tropical Depression Dovi has decided to step in to this protestor conundrum:

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/tropical-cyclone-dovi-intensifies-to-category-3-storm-as-it-heads-south-unravels-over-nz/Y63KCNH5Y6NYASJ6NLUSNUASBU/

    Up to 300mm of rain could be dumped in central New Zealand depending on how fast the cyclone passes over.

    Many regions could expect to be walloped by cyclonic gale-force winds, including the top and bottom of the North Island.

    These muppets will be well and truly gone by Sunday.wink

    • Ad 7.1

      When it's that hot and sticky they could all just go full Nambassa, take all their clothes off and squirt in the baby oil. No better celebration of freedom.

      • Robert Guyton 7.1.1

        "in"?

      • joe90 7.1.2

        Dude, I was at the original Ngāruawāhia event and a couple of Nambassa festivals and while there was lots of nudity and assorted fuckery to accompany the sex and drugs and rock and roll I can honestly say, the baby oil squirting frenzies never happened. Or perhaps I was in the wrong crowd and missed out on the invite…….

        • Sanctuary 7.1.2.1

          I remember being offered a greasy leather gourd of tepid tequila by a mongrel mob guy at Sweetwaters and I took a huge gulp because I was just a kid and it was an offer I couldn't refuse…

      • Anker 7.1.3

        Full Nambassa? I was there and I don't remember clothes being taken off, not in my area anyway! Respectible festival it was.

        (Just so everyone knows this is an attempt at humour………..)

        But Ngaruawahia was a different story!

      • UncookedSelachimorpha 7.1.4

        Ahhh! The oldest trick in the protest books.

        All clothes off, slather on the baby oil – now try to grab us you stupid cops!

    • Ross 7.2

      You do realise, Anne, that the protestors came in vehicles and their vehicles have rooves lol

  7. Blade 8

    The Labour government has been accused of being undemocratic. Is that true?

    Is this government out of control? Buoyed on under the cover of Covid?

    I personally believe this is the worst government in NZs history.

    1- Labour took the democratic right of people to block Maori wards away from voters.

    2- Labour is moving ahead with Three Waters legislation despite widespread opposition. This legislation has a race based component and a raft of new bureaucracy. And it thieves assets built up over the years by rate payers.

    Whoever controls water, controls the economy.

    3- Labour has impinged more into the private property rights of landlords. Labour couldn't care less about property rights.

    4- Labour acquisitioned RATS test from private companies to cover their own ineptitude. Labour doesn't see it that way.

    5- Labour will implement a special Maori health ministry. Race based.

    6- Labour will not remove dangerous tenants from state homes. If you are a tax paying neighbour and fearful…well that's tough. You should be entitled to government and police protection, but unfortunately you aren't. You can piss off. ( currently under review).

    The first responsibility of government is to protect the country and its citizens. A democratic right in a supposed democratic society.

    Allied point. Labour doesn't want criminals in jail. They want to reduce our prison population because it does not fit their ideology. But what about crime victims? What about them…?

    7- Labour said they wouldn't introduce new taxes. They haven't…but?

    8- Labour removed our right to own semi automatics. That was a knee jerk reaction with no thought after one nutter used such a weapon to kill people. Sweden, I believe, after a mass shooting, took their time and worked things through before 'passing firearms legislation.

    8- Labour, by default, has demanded banks pry into the lives of 1st home mortgage applicants. The result of this meddling is a huge drop off in mortgage applications…during a housing crisis.

    Labour has no idea about how markets and businesses operate. But they love to tinker.

    Before Jacinda became PM she described herself to talkback host Larry Williams as a progressive politician. What that means probably went over the heads of many.

    Leighton Smith has a great podcast out where he interviews Judge Anthony Willy (ret) and his concerns for the future of democracy in NZ.

    • Robert Guyton 8.1

      "I personally believe this is the worst government in NZs history"

      Cheers!

    • Tony Veitch (not etc.) 8.2

      I personally believe this is the worst government in NZs history.

      Speaking frankly, Blade, who, apart from yourself, gives a f*ck what you believe!

      And before you repost by saying I’m attacking the messenger, I simply haven’t got the time or inclination to rebutt your crap.

    • Ad 8.3

      Go for the Act list Blade, you're on a roll.

    • roblogic 8.4

      "Them liberals done took away mah gerns!" 😭

    • Kiwijoker 8.5

      Remember Shipley?

      • Blade 8.5.1

        The woman who gave us photo ID licences.

        Who said they would only be used for proof a driver owned a legit licence…and nothing more.

        The same woman who behind the scenes was telling officials it was just the beginning and many more uses for that photo ID would be in the pipeline.

        And, hey presto ,a few years down the track when dealing with the gummint and organisations we have the familiar catch cry – ''have ya got photo ID?''

        Yeah, I remember that socialist well.

        • In remembrance of Sam who fought this in the courts.
        • gsays 8.5.1.1

          Without knowing the details, I admire the likes of Sam and the posse in Wellies. I copped (see what I did there?) a few fines in 8 or so years my wee protest agin the plastic lifetime license.

          Having the courage of their convictions.

          A few naysayers here have mentioned their protest actions. No doubt, they will recall the opposition they faced, regardless of their politics then or now

          • Blade 8.5.1.1.1

            yes

          • Shanreagh 8.5.1.1.2

            Who is 'Sam and the posse in Wellies'

            Kelvyn Alp, Phillip Arps, the Zelandia movement, Brent Power & various others have all been there or are there…..no Sam or even a Sam I am

            'Sam is short of course for Samuel, which literally means “Name of God.” “I am Sam” means literally “I Am [The] Name of God.” In Judaism the Name of God (Ha-Shem) is a euphemism for God's Presence'

            Once again I am bewildered.

            • gsays 8.5.1.1.2.1

              The only light I can shed is there was briefly a rooster round here called Sam.

              Kinda strident, full on, came from the other end of the spectrum from me. I reckoned it was him, probably wasn't.

              And then, of course, is the crowd in Wellys.

              The point I was making is that I admire folk who put into (protest) action their beliefs, easy to sit on the sidelines and chide.

              Love the Dr Seuss nod BTW, The Sneetches is a reference I have used a few times in regards Covid response.

            • Blade 8.5.1.1.2.2

              ''Once again I am bewildered.''

              Me too!

    • mikesh 8.6

      You may believe whatever you like. That is your democratic right. We don't yet have George Orwell style thought police (see "1984") operating in NZ.

    • Stuart Munro 8.7

      I personally believe this is the worst government in NZs history.

      Too young to remember Muldoon or Shipley then.

      1- Labour took the democratic right of people to block Maori wards away from voters.

      It's a matter of redress. Corrupt office holders, wrapping themselves in the mantle of the state and local government dispossessed Maori over the last 150 years. Now the rest of us get to experience it from the other side.

      2- Labour is moving ahead with Three Waters legislation despite widespread opposition. This legislation has a race based component and a raft of new bureaucracy. And it thieves assets built up over the years by rate payers.

      No different from Key's sell off of electricity assets, when there was referendum result telling him the public did not approve. But you don't whine about Key do you? Why do you suppose that is? #smellslikemisogyny

    • Patricia Bremner 8.8

      Blade? Leighton Smith?… true colours shining through.

    • Patricia Bremner 9.1

      yes Stephen D

    • Blade 9.2

      The man who gained more political power thanks to a worm. What does that say about the average IQ of New Zealanders?

      It's a bleak future for NZ, no matter who wins the next election.

      The only reason I'm rooting for National is because I believe they won't damage the country to the same extent Labour has.

      Apart from that, it's a glazed over look and hoping New Zealand has a future.

    • alwyn 9.3

      I suspect that Peter has been sounding out Luxon about getting a well-paid sinecure when National become the Government in 2023.

      Luxon probably looked at him and asked what his name was and what did he know about Government. . After all Luxon didn't enter Parliament until 3 years after Peter left. Such a reaction would certainly bring out the sarky side in Dunne.

      • Blade 9.3.1

        I said yesterday that Winston smells blood. Rumour, according to Barry Soper, who is actually getting out amongst protesters, is the great one is on his way down to Wellington.

        I'm wondering how the crowd will react SHOULD he address them? If he does address them, the crowds political IQ, or lack of, will be on show.

        Soper said he's had some good korero with protesters. He's also been abused.

        One lady told him to ''go fugg himself.'' Great stuff. Good journalism.laugh

        And where are the rest of our liberal media? Why looking down on proceedings from the Beehive.

        National need Winston. Winston needs votes. Has the old tusker got one throw of the dice left?

        Whoops – sorry ,you were talking about Dunn. Imported Turkish coffee is strong…and invigourating.

        • alwyn 9.3.1.1

          "our liberal media?".

          What liberal media. The media in this country are not of a liberal bent. They have authoritarian tendencies where only things that they approve of are allowed to be said. They are like our current Government in that regard and they certainly show it.

          I am a Liberal. The media in this country are not.

          • Blade 9.3.1.1.1

            ''They have authoritarian tendencies where only things that they approve of are allowed to be said.''

            And what are those things?

            1- Maori

            2- Gay parades

            3- Those silly Tories

            4- Cancel culture

            5- Heartless business – but good workers.

            6- Culture, diversity,

            7- Wokeism

            8- wink, wink..he believes in God sad

            Yes, they are authoritarian. They set the narrative in favour of liberalism, in my opinion.

  8. Reality 10

    Looking forward to very heavy rain coming for Wellington. Protesters' lack of hygiene needs can be served by taking a shower.

    Their disgusting behaviour in blocking a man needing to get his car out to go to Wellington hospital and a taxi not being able to get to him, highlights that their so called "freedom" beliefs never apply to having any responsibility to others in the community. Selfish, ignorant, motley, nasty. Those on a benefit will still want to have taxpayers providing for them however as their "right" to be supported while contributing nothing to society. Saying that, I completely believe those in genuine need of state support should get it.

  9. aj 11

    I've only got time to comment on one of those issues you have.

    Parliament has the power to change laws and did so with widespread support. Gun owners can still buy guns, even if they feel their manhood has been diminished by being unable to buy weapons designed to kill as many people as possible in as short a time as possible.

    8- Labour removed our right to own semi automatics. That was a knee jerk reaction with no thought after one nutter used such a weapon to kill people. Sweden, I believe, after a mass shooting, took their time and worked things through before 'passing firearms legislation.

    • observer 11.1

      Impossible to reason with somebody who thinks that Parliament and government are synonyms.

      Every National MP voted for the gun reforms after the massacre. Only on planet Blade is that "undemocratic".

  10. Blade 12

    I see the weather forecast for the weekend in Wellington is for showers and rain.

    That may be the only thing to save this hapless government and police from protesters.

    If you want proof our Police Force is incompetent you need only look at the latest pictures from outside parliament.

    Where is the Police Minister? Oh, it's Poto Williams.

    Good to see some media commentators are saying what I have been from the beginning – politicians, especially Jacinda, should have fronted the protesters.

    I honestly don't know how all of this is going to end. But I do know, at the moment, the legacy of Jacinda Ardern is being given an alternative ending.

    • observer 12.2

      some media commentators are saying what I have been from the beginning – politicians, especially Jacinda, should have fronted the protesters.

      We're all "media commentators". Name them.

      • Sanctuary 12.2.1

        Given the protesters have declared their desire to lynch the PM, I can't see what her turning up to have a chat would achieve other than getting the crowd riled up at the sight of their erstwhile prey.

      • observer 12.2.2

        Still waiting to hear about all these "media commentators" … did they disappear?

    • Robert Guyton 12.3

      The police need to be "saved" from the protesters?

      Are the protesters planning to harm the police then?

      Freedumb!

    • weka 12.4

      But I do know, at the moment, the legacy of Jacinda Ardern is being given an alternative ending.

      I really should start keeping a list of your predictions. I recognise them as a form of political rhetoric, but it's very tempting to line them at one point and see how many didn't come true.

    • mikesh 12.5

      Good to see some media commentators are saying what I have been from the beginning – politicians, especially Jacinda, should have fronted the protesters.

      I don't see why. A bunch of cretins who obtain their information mostly from the social media are best ignored. They are not persuading anyone else in the country of anything, so why would they have been expected to persuade the government.

      Would you have expected them to listen to anything Jacinda said.

    • Craig H 12.6

      The Police Minister was in Parliament from Tuesday to Thursday, but Parliament is under the control of the Speaker, not Ministers of the Crown, so it's constitutionally questionable for any ministers to be involved in Parliamentary security issues. That aside, the Policing Act requires the Commissioner acts independently of ministers generally with regard to operational policing decisions including enforcement, so why would any minister get involved publicly?

      • Shanreagh 12.6.1

        Very good points but would be lost on any of the protesters. The democratic political structures particularly around the use of Police are very nuanced as you would expect from a country still subscribing to the Westminster style of Govt.

  11. observer 13

    News from the Monstrous Dictatorship of the South Pacific. To suppress the Great Popular Uprising, the authorities are using … water cannon? tear gas? tanks?

    Er, not quite …

    "Wellington unleashes parking wardens in operation to remove Covid protesters"

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/feb/10/wellington-unleashes-parking-wardens-in-operation-to-remove-covid-protesters

    Parking wardens? Is there no end to the brutality?

    • weka 14.1

      another fascination, with how much National don't mind looking stupid. Must wear on them after a while though.

  12. Jenny how to get there 15

    Why is the Wellington City Council refusing to tow away all the protesters illegally parked vehicles on Molesworth and surrounding Streets?

    It almost seems the State and the Labour Government are determined to bring about a situation where a violent confrontation with the anti-vaccine protesters is inevitable.

    This is particularly disturbing in light of the fact that the protesters are bringing children into their protest village.

    This is New Zealand can't we do something different?

    Is a protest on the forecourt of Parliament that terrible?

    Is it all about ego?

    ….One man, who showed Stuff his court papers, said he and others who were arrested had to return to Parliament because this was where their cars and belongings were.
    He had travelled from the West Coast for the protest and said he wasn't sure what he was going to do, as he was due to appear in a court in Wellington in a few weeks.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/300515275/live-more-tents-erected-at-parliament-grounds-on-day-four-of-antimandate-protest

    What the hell? Forcing out of town protesters to remain in Wellington, is complete idiocy.

    Sure I would like to see the anti-vaccine idiots actively trying to sabotage our collective response to the pandemic hosed off the steps of parliament, just as much as the next person, but we should refrain from giving into this sort of base emotional response.

    We see the same sort of ego driven escalation on the Ukraine border. Do we need to repeat this sort of stupidity here?

    Let's search for a different way.

    Very young children at protest

    A number of children – including those school-aged, toddlers and babies – are present at the protest today on Parliament grounds. There were significantly high tensions a yesterday's protest, with police and protesters clashing on multiple occasions and 122 people ultimately arrested over the course of the day.

    During these altercations, two police officers were injured, and some protesters suffered minor injuries. Police also used pepper spray twice on Thursday after officers were pulled into the crowd.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/300515275/live-more-tents-erected-at-parliament-grounds-on-day-four-of-antimandate-protest

    I have seen the photos, not one mask.

    Presumably they are also all unvaccinated.

    You can’t cure stupid or enforce against it.

    Let them stay. Let covid infections sort them out

    • Jenny how to get there 15.1

      P.S. Wouldn't it be preferable to keep as many of these idiots as possible in one place instead of out in their communities spreading the contagion?

      Wouldn't this be better than leaving them in the community to get into mischief?Burning down cell towers, smashing up medical clinics, threatening health workers, bribing others to take the vaccine for them so they can enter large gathering with false vaccine credentials. And generally spreading the virus to undermine and discredit the authorities.

      • Nic the NZer 15.1.1

        Do think about what your asking for. Apparently fines have been issued by traffic wardens but having two police to accompany each.

        Towing companies are further removed from the council or police again.

        • Jenny how to get there 15.1.1.1

          Towies have never been accused by anyone of being blushing violets. Or for that matter of turning down a chance to turn a buck.

          They would compete to get the work.

          So let them get on with the job.

          What's the problem?

          • Nic the NZer 15.1.1.1.1

            The police are trained to deal with this.

            The police are equipped to deal with this.

            The police are planning how to deal with this.

            The police can offer more than a nuisance to the protesters.

            The police don't have similar concerns regarding prosecution for their intervention.

            If your a towing company (or traffic wardens) then police presence will be needed anyway at this point.

            I mean at this point its been well managed and will probably end soon due to the weather. But pushing the official response out to unsupported security contractors could yet screw that up.

  13. Herodotus 16

    So mim wage increase 5.9% same as inflation, yet our govt has indexed benefits to wage growth. Wage growth last year was 2.4% inflation 5.9% . Everyone faces the same struggle how to survive on less. But Grant Robertson said this morning “It’s really challenging people, but an awful lot of it relates to Covid, supply chain and things that unfortunately will work their way through the system this year.” Grant you and your fellow ministers are disconnected with the day to day world the rest of us live in, and our pain is due to YOUR policies. Why are beneficiaries viewed as less deserving, and any wage growth will take time to "work" its way thru the system until it appears as "Wage Growth " and can be applied to benefits ??

    https://www.msd.govt.nz/documents/about-msd-and-our-work/newsroom/factsheets/budget/factsheet-benefit-indexation-2019.pdf

    http://www.voxy.co.nz/politics/5/397995#:~:text=%22At%205.9%25%20for%202021%2C,has%20been%20in%20three%20decades.&text=%22With%20wage%20growth%20of%20only,record%20amounts%20of%20government%20spending.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/government-raising-minimum-wage-to-2120/BAJVYSWR6VFLK6LRWQJNJMM7HQ/

    • Barfly 16.1

      Well mate I am pretty sure I will be getting an extra $23 a week on 1 April as part of the previously announced benefit increases . Have you forgotten about that?

      • Herodotus 16.1.1

        So beneficiaries are now at a level proposed in 2019 !!! Next distraction to tell us how beneficiaries are well catered for !! ps I wonder for many how much of any increase will be consumed by petrol price increases and other cost increases eg Inflation ??? But you are Ok so no need for anyone to complain.

        "A further increase in main benefit rates of $15 after tax is scheduled for 1 April 2022, bringing main benefit rates for individuals and couples without children into line with the recommendations of the 2019 Welfare Expert Advisory Group. "

        nz.co.nz/news/political/460239/benefit-increases-going-to-more-than-half-of-families-with-children-report#:~:text=A%20further%20increase%20in%20main,2019%20Welfare%20Expert%20Advisory%20Group.

      • Patricia Bremner 16.1.2

        Plus the winter warmth payment after that Barfly. It all helpsdevil

  14. Jenny how to get there 17

    P.S. Wouldn't it be preferable to keep as many of these idiots as possible in one place instead of out in their communities spreading the contagion?

    Wouldn't this be better than leaving them in the community to get into mischief?Burning down cell towers, smashing up medical clinics, threatening health workers, bribing others to take the vaccine for them so they can enter large gathering with false vaccine credentials. And generally spreading the virus to undermine and discredit the authorities.

  15. Anker 18

    I agree their cars should be removed as it is blocking a major street, which among other things it the main access to our local supermarket. There is another street you can access it from but its one way and not simple to get to. I feel for the supermarket staff who are doing home delieveries in this covid era and what a nightmare for the big food supply trucks.

    Re the protesters. I am not going to villify them. They are allowed to protest, but the police are allowed to move them along and trespass them.

    • alwyn 18.1

      " There is another street you can access it from but its one way and not simple to get to".

      It is just as easy to get to Mulgrave St as it is to Molesworth. And, in case you hadn't noticed Molesworth St is also a one way street. I certainly don't think you will get very far if you try to travel South along it. Are you sure you are the Wellingtonian you appear to wish to be taken as?

      • Anker 18.1.1

        Love it that you are questioning my Wellingtonianess Alwyn.

        Its more my knowledge of the streets you should question………I usually travel the same route up Molesworth. My husband will be quietly nodding with you in support over this. But I do think any re-routing of traffic is likely to cause delays.

    • Jenny how to get there 18.2

      Anker

      11 February 2022 at 11:26 am

      …. the police are allowed to move them along and trespass them.

      ….. the police are allowed to move them along and trespass them.

      (But they don't have to).

      The protesters have said that they will not move.

      To remove them will require force.

      You say that you don't vilify the protesters, but you do support using force against them.

      Vilify Definition & Meaning – Merriam-Webster

      https://www.merriam-webster.com › dictionary › vilify

      The meaning of VILIFY is to utter slanderous and abusive statements.

      If you asked me Ankar, I would say that using force against someone is more abusive than using words against them.

      To justify force against someone is to justify a certain level of violence against them. This is just an unavoidable fact.

      Videos call into question police claims of 'very professional' response to protest

      On Thursday, the atmosphere became more hostile than ever when Speaker Trevor Mallard issued protesters a trespass notice, resulting in a heated stand-off with police and the arrest of more than 100 people in 24 hours…..

      ……

      In the first video, which appears to be an excerpt of a livestream, a man can be seen speaking calmly with a police officer until the officer suddenly and forcefully grabs the man around the neck, seemingly without provocation.

      Protesters can be heard booing as police staff rush to help their colleague drag the man to the ground and arrest him while several others form a barricade.

      Another video shows what appears to be a naked woman being dragged by her dreadlocks out of a stand-off between police and protesters.

      She is pinned to the ground and handcuffed by two female officers. A male officer can then be seen walking over and placing his knee on her neck, despite her not appearing to be resisting arrest.

      https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2022/02/anti-mandate-convoy-videos-call-into-question-police-claims-of-very-professional-response-to-protest.html?

      Ankar, from the above, your justification of force seems way worse than your mealy mouthed determination not to 'vilify' them.

      • Anker 18.2.1

        Jenny if I gave the impression I was justifying force, my apologies. I think I said the police are allowed to move them along. They have been tresspassed. I am anything but an expert on policing, so I will leave that up to the police, hoping they make the best call on how to move them along. In the situation of people being arrested and resisting arrest it is possible there will be unacceptabIe things happening. Many of us on this site would have been on demonstrations where people get arrested. Iam really concerned that if these people are unvacinated (likely) this will become a super spreader event and it will burden Wellington Health facilities. I am already concerned for my local supermarket workers as it is likely the protestors are shopping there.

        Your comment mealy mouthed was a little uncalled for really. But of course you are entitled to say that.

        I am 100% behind vacinations and have had my booster. While I don't understand why anyone would refuse a vaccination, a very small percentage of Kiwis have. This is normal with medicines. Not every person accepts treatment for whatever reason. I am vehemently against their choice, but I can see no point as referring to them as idiots etc.

        • weka 18.2.1.1

          Tresspassing someone is by definition a use of force. Either the person complies to avoid physical force, or someone uses state-sanctioned physical force to make them.

          In my mind the issue here is totally about the protestors breaking the covid restrictions and putting all of us at risk. I haven't actually looked that up though, to see if they are breaking current public health orders. Do you know?

          There's a risk of it being a superspreader even irrespective of vax status. There aren't many reasons for this kind of protest I would think warrant the risk this week even from vaxed protestors. But it's the whole thing, no masks, no distancing, probably not a lot of prevention hygiene or scanning etc.

    • Jenny how to get there 18.3

      Senior cabinet Minister Trevor Mallard says the punch he threw at National MP Tau Henare is "one of the most stupid things I've ever done in my life".

      https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/12723/Punch-was-stupid-Mallard

      I would disagree, Trevor Mallard's decision to escalate the situation against the anti-mandate protesters was far stupider.

      Everyone needs to just step back and take a breath, before things get worse.

      The Prime Minister needs to step in to defuse the situation and ask Mallard to rescind his trespass order. Then the Police can stand down. The Wellington city council need to do their job and remove all the illegally parked vehicles on the streets around parliament. And then the protest needs to be ignored, until the first protester presents at hospital with covid-19 asking for help.

      Trevor Mallard has a proven penchant for violence.

      Mallard is making a mockery of the Prime Minister's call to 'Be Kind'. Which is just what the antivaxxer protesters wanted.

      This was all predictable

      Trevor Mallard is an idiot. With all the finesse of a bull in a china shop.

      https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-09-02-2022/#comment-1860119

      • Anker 18.3.1

        Well Jenny, I appreciate you have strong views about what should have happened at parliament and you may well be right.

        I don't know much about the best strategy for these things. But out of concern about the protest becoming a super spreader evernt, I would much prefer the protestors go.

        Wellingron has been very fortunate in terms of how much Covid 19 has impacted us. As I said, I am concerned about the health system here and also my local supermarket employees.

      • Craig H 18.3.2

        The PM should under no circumstances touch anything to do with Parliamentary precincts. The Speaker is constitutionally and legally responsible for all of that, and in matters to do with the Parliamentary grounds and buildings, it's entirely his call. There are a lot of staff on site and the Speaker has an obligation to their safety which is not well-managed by just ignoring the protestors who like to throw things at the staff as they walk through.

        • observer 18.3.2.1

          Craig is 100% correct.

        • Jenny how to get there 18.3.2.2

          Our responsible Speaker turns the sprinklers on the protesters.

          Does he think this is a joke?

          Already people have been hurt.

          https://www.1news.co.nz/2022/02/11/sprinklers-turned-on-protesters-by-parliament-speaker/

          Real mature

          Are these the actions of a responsible leader of the house who wants to defuse a tense situation?
          Or a vain glorious egotist wanting to inflame the situation?

          Trevor Mallard is the wrong man in the wrong position at the wrong time.

          Mallard’s childish actions do not engender respect for our democratic institutions or reflect well on them.

          With his ill considered childish actions Mallard has played right into the antivaxxers hands. And especially to the extremists among them.

          With his actions Trevor Mallard has dragged the government into a violent confrontation with the anti-mandate protesters.

          Due to his actions the government now have to decide whether this the ditch they want to die in.

          With his rash and ill considered and childish actions Mallard has played right into the hands of the antivaxxers and rubbished the Prime Ministers' call to New Zealanders to be kind.

          A vote of no confidence needs to be called and Mallard replaced as speaker, before things deteriorate even further.

          It will not be Mallard who has to pay for his stupidity but the front line police officers and yes even the government who will not look good after this.

          • McFlock 18.3.2.2.1

            nah. If they want to stay, make them uncomfortable. It'll be a police/security suggestion to do it. edit: in your link mallard says it was his idea – my bad. Still a conventional move, though.

            I wonder if they're doing the "bright lights and loud PA all night" routine as well.

            • Jenny how to get there 18.3.2.2.1.1

              Yeah keep it up. Keep trashing the Prime Minister's call to "Be Kind". You will be playing right into the antivaxxers hands, reinforcing their narrative that the Prime Minister and Labour Government are evil oppressors, hardening their resolve.

              My guess: If Mallard repeats this stupid stunt the protesters will rip the sprinker system out of the lawn.

              This giant dick waving competition has to got stop before someone is seriously hurt.

              • Nic the NZer

                They have been dug out already.

              • McFlock

                "Reinforcing"? They already believe it with iron-forged stupidity. It'll take more than sprinklers to make anyone else care.

                • Jenny how to get there

                  This is the thing McFlock; The Prime Minister’s 'Be Kind' call doesn't mean anything if it only meant be kind to your friends and those who agree with you, you were going to be kind to them anyway.

                  The vast majority support the government's measures toward combatting the virus., The government can afford to be magnanimous to the tiny vociferous minority opposed. But the government cannot afford to be vindictive and petty. These are the actions of a bully and is a real buzz kill for voters.

                  Keep escalating the punitive measures McFlock and the use of force. Do your suggested “bright lights and loud PA all night” routine, and do all this under the media glare and you will have achieved what these protesters want.

                  • McFlock

                    "Be kind" doesn't mean tolerating swastikas, threats, and gridlocking major CBD thoroughfares.

                    You want to blame the cops for the violence when this lot finally get hiffed from the area? Whatever. But was it day 1 or day 2 when the rabble tried to storm parliament? Lucky most of them lacked the backbone to commit to our own Jan 6.

                    • weka

                      Prob should but don't have the spoons to do a post on this, but the thing that stands out for me is that we don't really know what is going on. We're piecing things together but it's not like there's a coherent narrative. I'm actually quite impressed they've done four days (because I see them as protest as well as politically naive), and that things have settled down rather than escalating. Am curious what's happening on the ground to make such a strange mix of people work together.

                    • McFlock

                      The Canadian truckies are at two weeks now.

                      Students did occupy the university of otago registry building for a couple of weeks in the 1990s, although incomes were more regular (loans and allowances). There are other longer term occupations to look at in NZ, too.

                      I imagine a lot of these folks will be short of money soon, unless they've saved money over the last couple of years of no real holidays.

                      From a protestor perspective, I think it comes down to finances, endurance, and whether they start circulating occupiers in and out (but that will facilitate the infiltration of both cops and bad actors like nazis looking for a real fight). There's also the aspect of what outside support they have: food, funding, genuine legal services, feeding the animals at home, that sort of thing.

                      If the authorities can minimise the actual (traffic and local business, plus harrassing of and by commuters) disruption, there's a "see what happens in winter" option, maybe. But everyone's working on a budget, and those cops have to come from somewhere. And there's ANZAC day – that might motivate the authorities to move them within the next 8 weeks, even if there's a capability and inclination to accommodate the protests for longer.

                    • Jenny how to get there

                      “You want to blame the cops for the violence when this lot finally get hiffed from the area?”
                      McFlock

                      No I don't McFlock, and you know it.

                      I blame the politicians giving the police their directions for the violence.

                      As will most of the country.

                      Indulge your violent revenge fantasies if you like, see what that delivers. No one will come out looking good. Personally I want calmer heads to prevail over impulsive nuts like Mallard with a proven penchant for violence.

                      The PM could give a broadcast and address the protesters directly appealing to their better natures to refrain from violence in return the government agree to leave them alone to continue their protest on the condition that it remain peaceful.

                      Give a little get a little, is the principal.

                      The reward, no further violence. The police can stand down no one gets hurt.

                      One more condition; Please for goodness sake remove all your illegally parked vehicles, so people can go about their lawful business. Or, we will remove them for you.

                    • McFlock

                      The PM could give a broadcast and address the protesters directly appealing to their better natures to refrain from violence in return the government agree to leave them alone to continue their protest on the condition that it remain peaceful.

                      lol

                      Hilarious. There's nobody to negotiate with. If the antivaxxers decide it's fine, the swastika-painters will have the opposite reaction.

                      This isn't a revenge fantasy. This is me watching the cops treat the protest as well as if not more leniantly than other protests. Maybe because there are more kids dragged there than most protests – fair call on the cops.

                      But either these guys get tired and piss off, or it will end badly. Because they're not going to willingly make life easier for anyone else. The entitled moron sort never do. Hell, where will they park their campervans etc, anyway?

      • Blade 18.3.3

        Three people need the boot from parliament in my opinion:

        Trevor Mallard.

        Judith Collins

        Gerry Brownlee

        Why do they hang around when they will be sucking on the public tit until you drop?

        • Stuart Munro 18.3.3.1

          Mallard of course has a job to do, which includes removing folk threatening violence against sitting MPs from parliamentary precincts. It is natural that, as an enthusiastic supporter of the gibbering Trumpist insurrectionists you would find him inconvenient.

          Only three though? I can think of at least a couple of dozen MPs that are a complete waste of skin.

          • Blade 18.3.3.1.1

            ''Only three though? I can think of at least a couple of dozen MPs that are a complete waste of skin.''

            Let me guess – not one of them would be a Leftie? laugh

            Now regarding Mallard, there was that case of a sexual assault allegation?

            Anyone with a moral compass would have stepped down. Mallard didn't.

            Like you, Mallard is a one eyed ideolog who isn't too bright…but is very cunning and nasty.

            • Stuart Munro 18.3.3.1.1.1

              Let me guess – not one of them would be a Leftie? laugh

              It might surprise you to learn that there are relatively few genuine lefties in Parliament in any case – but any number of dubious waifs and strays riding on their coattails.

              It's a bit like compassionate conservatism, or bluegreens, – everybody's heard of them, but no one's ever seen either in the flesh.

  16. joe90 19

    Same with the 1995 Moutoa occupation and standoff. Police stationed themselves in a house across the river with panoramic views, and some say a parabolic ear, of the goings on and snapped away to their hearts content.

    btw, more than 25 years after the event a veil of silence lifted and a local arsewipe was handed a very lengthy prison sentence for his sexual offending during the occupation.

    https://twitter.com/tony_lyall/status/1454317122138480643

  17. Reality 20

    Blade, re your earlier comment that this government has no idea how markets and business operate. Have you remembered how Paul Goldsmith couldn't do his maths? Such a clever businessman! Has Simon Bridges ever run a business given his background was as a crown prosecutor. Such an experienced businessman! Remember National ran down the public service (health, housing to name just two).

    Business loudly expects Government to keep out of business, but business demands very loudly and quickly when the going gets tough and yes, shock horror, want taxpayer support. All that support actually requires public servants to process that. The Pandemic has required hundreds, if not thousands of public servants to manage the last two years. Conservation and education and no doubt others that were needing better staffing levels. National can't wait to get the razor gang into action, as they always do.

    • Blade 20.1

      ''Business loudly expects Government to keep out of business, but business demands very loudly and quickly when the going gets tough and yes, shock horror, want taxpayer support.''

      Any business that begs for government help ( called phoney crony capitalism) should get nothing from the taxpayer, unless the government is the cause of business loss.

      I also believe no one should get a benefit from the government.

      I'm betting everyone on this blog is saying yah! to the former and… what a fuckwit to the latter.

      That's called pragmatism. That's what happens when we don't have a constitution that defines what a government can and cannot do… especially to the taxpayer.

  18. Stephen D 21

    I must be missing something here.

    Putin is determined that no more states bordering Russia join NATO.

    What I don’t get is why he so exercised about. NATO is a defence alliance. They are never going to strike first. So what’s his problem?

    • Sanctuary 21.1

      His problem is called "Operation Barbarossa" and the desire to avoid giving anyone from the west any chance of repeating that. It's been the cornerstone of Soviet/Russian security policy since the end of WWII.

      • Stephen D 21.1.1

        German tanks rumbling across the steppes. Really! Apart from the possibility of US stupidity, what reason is there for a European invasion of Russia?

      • aj 21.1.2

        One minute of research … Russia invaded from the west 5 times in the last 400yrs.

        “In the past 500 years, Russia has been invaded several times from the west. The Poles came across the European Plain in 1605, followed by the Swedes under Charles XII in 1707, the French under Napoleon in 1812, and the Germans—twice, in both world wars, in 1914 and 1941.Oct 31, 2015”

    • joe90 21.2

      He's waving his fucking big stick to divert attention from his problem – looting by the oligarchs has reduced Russia to a nuclear armed petro state with a GDP half that of California to go around a population four times that of California.

      https://twitter.com/Peter__Leonard/status/1490241917086482432

      From a few years ago too, but I don't doubt he still has ambitions to be remembered as the one who recreated the Russia of the past. Poots the Great has a nice ring to it.

      To get a glimpse into Vladimir Putin’s mind, it’s worth reading the recent writings of his foreign minister, Sergei Lavrov. In a long article published this month by the Moscow-based magazine Russia in Global Affairs– translated here into English – Lavrov spells it out with clarity. What Russia wants is nothing short of fundamental change: a formal, treaty-based say on Europe’s political and security architecture. Until Russia gets that, goes the message, there will be no stability on the continent. The key sentence in the article is this: “During the last two centuries, any attempt to unite Europe without Russia and against it has inevitably led to grim tragedies.”

      […]

      Lavrov seems to draw a comparison between Putin and Peter the Great, who relied on “tough domestic measures and resolute, successful foreign policy” to make Russia a key European player “in little over two decades”. He repeats Moscow’s mantras about the cold war not being lost by Russia but ending with the “unlucky chain of events” that led to the dissolution of the USSR. EU and Nato enlargement, he writes, were not about “smaller European countries” going from “subjugation to freedom”, but about simply changing “leadership”. The result: today, these countries “can’t take any significant decision without the green light from Washington or Brussels”. In this wild mix, EU institutions are equated to no less than Soviet totalitarianism.

      https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/mar/18/putin-long-game-omens-europe-russia

      • Blazer 21.2.1

        Russia is still the 11th biggest economy in the world.

        Putin has restored stability and respect to Russia.

        Oligarchs are a bi product of Glasnost.

        The inequality in the West is as pronounced as in Russia.

        People have been free to vote with their feet…for years.

      • Sanctuary 21.2.2

        "…Lavrov seems to draw a comparison between Putin and Peter the Great…"

        Poor Russia, a nation cursed to be forever governed by absolutism tempered by assassination.

    • Blazer 21.3

      Calling it a 'defence' alliance does not alter …reality.

      'Bosnia war broke out in 1992 due to the breakup of Yugoslavia. The situation was worsening drawing the attention of the UN Security Council. UNSC passed a resolution in October 1992 where operation No Fly was established. In 1993 NATO enforced the operation to deny flight from June 1993 to 1996. Several operations by NATO would follow with the Bosnia War persisting. A two weeks air bombing began in 1995 bringing an end to the Yugoslavian War.'

      Major NATO Military Interventions – WorldAtlas

    • Ad 21.4

      Since the fall of the Soviet Union NATO has consistently increased their membership states and as a result brought their armaments closer and closer to Russia itself. It wasn't necessary and was over time provocative.

      Pretty easy to imagine an alternative trajectory in which ex-Soviet states like the Ukraine simply announced their defence neutrality from either NATO or Russia, rid themselves of all remaining nuclear weapons, and did the world a favour for peace.

      Instead it is a belligerent United States who keep doing dumber and dumber things, and Putin the ultra-patriot digging more and more defensive by the week.

      The world doesn't need NATO anymore.

      It needs a world without nuclear weapons.

      • Sanctuary 21.4.1

        "…The world doesn't need NATO anymore…"

        As the old joke goes NATO was created to keep the Americans in, the Soviets out, and the Germans down.

        The minute the Soviet Union collapsed & Germany reunited the raison d'edtre of NATO collapsed since of the three conditions above the last two immediately ceased to exist and the first became optional. The Atlantic Alliance (AKA NATO) has a clear cut strategic mission in the cold war – defense of Western Europe from a Soviet offensive. Once the USSR disappeared it lost its mission and it's members retain it primarily because they are tight arses who want to USA to keep picking up the tab of a swollen alliance defending weak periphery states of no strategic importance to the alliance on the borders of Russia.

        The state of the German military for example is pitiful for the worlds fourth largest economy – a running joke in Germany is “nothing flies, nothing floats, and nothing runs.” The airforce has munitions for just four Eurofighters. It frequently has less than 40 combat aircraft available anyway, while for long periods of time it has no operational submarines (all broken down) while it's new frigates are under-armed, grossly over-priced, unreliable and often broken down. The armies equipment is all cold-war era and all the replacement project has collapsed in bad designs, price gouging scandals, and weapons that just plain don't work.

        So NATO now mainly exists so the US nuclear umbrella can keep the Germans out of a stew of their own making, yet somehow they've decided the Baltic States and Poland are key allies. I mean, how many Portugese really want to fight to save Estonia?

    • Subliminal 21.5

      NATO defensive? Thats a good one. You could try telling that to Afghanistan or Libya or the former Yugoslavia. I'm sure they'd appreciate your humour. About 20 years ago Nato bombed a European capital, Belgrade. Perhaps you should think before regurgitating mindless propaganda?

      • aj 21.5.1

        This is the quality of diplomat Lavrov is dealing with. The grey matter hasn't even got the most basic geographic details correct.

        https://twitter.com/i_nautilus/status/1491815902458884109

        And from the 3rd Feb

        https://www.thenational.scot/news/19893997.ukraine-crisis-liz-truss-mocked-geography-gaffe-russia/

        LIZ Truss’s latest foray into international diplomacy has not gone to plan after she was given a lesson in basic geography.

        The UK Foreign Secretary was mocked by Maria Zakharova, Russia’s foreign ministry spokesperson, for failing to know the difference between the Baltic and Black seas, which are more than 700 miles apart.

        It came as another senior Kremlin official dismissed British diplomacy as “absolutely worthless”.

        Truss, who is due to travel to Moscow once she recovers from coronavirus, told the BBC’s Sunday Morning show that “we are supplying and offering extra support into our Baltic allies across the Black Sea”.

        Zakharova noted that the Baltic nations of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania lie off the Baltic Sea, not the Black Sea, which is hundreds of miles to the south.

        “The Baltic countries are called so because they are located precisely off the coast of this [Baltic] sea. Not the Black [Sea],” the Russian official wrote on Facebook. “If anyone needs to be saved from anything, then it is the world from the stupidity and ignorance of Anglo-Saxon politicians.”

    • Stuart Munro 21.6

      Putin's problem is that he's getting long in the tooth, and his governance isn't producing the goods for the Russian people. This is somewhat to do with Russia's 1%ers' success in avoiding tax that might have built a bit more infrastructure. His popularity is declining, and so he's fallen back on the traditional short victorious war, unfortunately for Vlad, soviet era censorship has obscured the fact the Russia got it's ass kicked in the last one. The choice of Ukraine makes a lot of sense however – it has neither the capacity to nor the intention of invading Russia, making any conflict difficult for Russia to lose. Eyewatering sanctions may however turn a battlefield victory into a long term defeat.

      Putin's hope is that the effete West will fold and give him a victory he can wave before his increasingly sceptical voters. With nearly total control of internal news and an active troll army jumping on counter narratives it's not impossible – though the continuing decline in standards of living will make its presence felt again soon whatever he does.

      • Subliminal 21.6.1

        How hilarious. You do know that Gazprom is now back in state ownership and the neoliberal wreckers of Yeltsins 90s have hightailed it overseas because they thought they didn't need to pay tax? Russia will not invade the Ukraine. They already have one of the most sparsely populated territories in the world. Russia is the closest thing on the planet at present to an autarky, created largely in response to western sanctions. They have completely de-dollarised there economy and have huge reserves of both currency and gold. They are a net exporting country and are largely immune to anything other than nuclear war that the west can throw at them. The latest addition to this already impressive hand is the unprecedented manufacturing and economic muscle of China. Along with Iran there is now the size and economic and manufacturing capability to exist and flourish in a strategy of Nations engaging cooperatively. Three great nations with three extremely different systems of governence engaged in cooperative win/win interactions. This is the structure that we will all be wishing to engage with because it offers prosperity for all and projects itself by building infrastructure and national capability instead of bombs and wars.

        • Stuart Munro 21.6.1.1

          Your view is pretty hilarious too – bet you don't even know who Chernomyrdin was.

          No, Russia doesn't need to invade – but the kleptocracy is even more entrenched now than in the drunken buffoon Yeltsin's time. The rule of law is weaker in Russia than ever. Piss the West off enough – And Putin and Lavrov are using every piece of bad manners at their disposal – and Nordstream 2 will not go ahead – and Russia will fall even further behind – as criminally poorly run countries are wont to do.

          There has been precious little prosperity for all in Putin's neo-soviet reboot – but he has made war on Chechnya, Ingushetia, Georgia, Ukraine, and Kazakhstan.

          The three state union you suggest is unlikely in the extreme – neither Putin nor Xi will ever settle for less than pre-eminence, to which Iran may very well take religious exceptions.

          • Subliminal 21.6.1.1.1

            I realise that in your world view cooperation between nations is a difficult concept to grasp. So not a union. Nation states remain as nations. And the indivisibility of security recognised in numerous treaties. And the rule of international law as negotiated between nations at the UN rather than decided in the West to be imposed on the rest.

            • Stuart Munro 21.6.1.1.1.1

              Russia isn't good at laws that require compliance from them. Neither is China. Of course a temporary anti-US alliance has some attraction for them – but the US is presently disposed to wait a bit before engaging in fresh mischief. This gives these potential allies plenty of time to learn to loathe each other.

              • Subliminal

                Judging by the hysterical war chants of the US and UK, I would suggest that you have got things a little about face. The hysteria suggests that it is the West that has run out of time. The only question at the moment is wether Europe will go down the same road as the US or choose to act in its own interests. War in the Ukraine will only benefit the US oligarchs since the tools of war are the major industrial base that still functions in the US and is the only budget that never gets any resistance by Congress or the Senate. Social spending is always resisted but never military. Without a war, and soon, control of the empire will slip like gloop through the US fingers. One assumes that the recent frantic arrival of officials and leaders of the West are because Russia has made it clear that, especially, the US will not be allowed to go unscathed in the event of war. After all, it is the US which has armed the Ukraine to the teeth, breaking yet another piece of international law, which they agreed to as a permanent member of the UNSC, to not do. Germany has refused to send any kind of weaponry to the Ukraine in accordance with the Minsk agreements. But Germany appears to have very little say in things to do with it's own interests as was demonstred when Biden told the world that sanctions on Russia would mean the end of Nordstream 2 and when asked how he would manage to interfere in a contract between Germany and Russia said that it would be done. All this without even acknowledging Scholtz who was standing right beside him!! Now thats how you do authoritarianism!!

  19. Adrian 22

    How different would the 60s Anti Nuclear, Vietnam, Springbok Tours, Land Rights, Nuke Free Pacific, etc..etc protests have been if policed this way ?. Not as much fun, got to let the agro out. But this one confuses me, it may just be P.R and a very good example of that, of trying to make the Police look a lot more user friendly but letting more join it with circus marquees when you can’t walk down the road with an open can of lite stale piss without being stopped has to make one question WTF. Sure the presence of young children and babies is definitely a handbrake on a good ole sort out. I noticed yesterday that a few of the older cops who look as though they had done their time in a few scrums looking like they were just itching for it to go feral. I don’t blame them, these are the dickheads they are dealing with everyday, done too much chemistry, left school before lunchtime on their first day and never went back, think the whole world owes them a living and don’t actually give a fuck about anybody else. We at least protested to make the world a better and safer place and not just for ourselves, these drongoes are only interested in themselves, the big I, the imperative me.

    And yes JennyHTGT, NZ is doing it differently, a kinder, gentler dispersal of a group of occupiers you would not find anywhere else in the world.

    • weka 22.1

      A few things. One is it's only a few days in. Police brutality or even just using a lot of force, in previous protests took time to build up.

      Two, the last thing the government needs with this protest is the heavy hand of the state via the police, cracking down with lots of MSM focus on the clickbait and sensationalising. NZ as a society doesn't need that either.

      Three, those police are at risk of getting covid.

      If this were XR, I'd be ok with the tactics the police are using. And they may just be waiting for the weather over the next few says to sort things out, which would be very smart.

      • Ross 22.1.1

        Three, those police are at risk of getting covid.

        Well, they’re at risk of lots of things including being run over or being injured or dying in a car crash. But for good reasons we don’t lower the speed limit to accommodate this low risk.

        Police are at greatest risk of catching Covid from a vaccinated person since they make up the vast majority of the population, and such people can transmit the virus. But if the police have been fully vaccinated and are wearing masks, the risk of harm is probably astonishingly small. It’s worth noting that 5 million NZers haven’t caught this highly transmissible virus.

        • weka 22.1.1.1
          1. why add another risk?
          1. we do in fact mitigate the risk of car accidents, by having limits on our freedoms. Where we drive, how fast we drive, not drinking and driving, seatbelts are mandatory, wof, registration and RUCs are mandatory and so on.

          Police are at greatest risk of catching Covid from a vaccinated person since they make up the vast majority of the population, and such people can transmit the virus.

          The police are in close contact when arresting protestors, and their masks are hard to keep in the right place. This is the risk I was referring to, nothing about vaccinations (impossible to know if an arrestee is vaccinated or not).

          Although I wuold hazard a guess that these protestors are more likely to not be taking precautions and are actively taking part in a potential superspreader event.

          • Ross 22.1.1.1.1

            The police are in close contact when arresting protestors,

            Yes, so? Police are usually in close contact with any protesters they arrest. Leaving aside these particular protesters, others might transmit the deadly flu virus (or hepatitis). Of course, police might transmit something to protesters. To be sure, they are low risks in either direction.

            • weka 22.1.1.1.1.1

              there's a lot of stupid about today, but this is up there.

              We aren't in the middle of an emerging flu or hepatitis wave that is presenting immanent concern. Omicron comes with well known risks. We are trying to slow its spread.

          • gsays 22.1.1.1.2

            Does Soundsplash count as a super spreader event?

            Fairly super, considering who was impacted.

            • weka 22.1.1.1.2.1

              It shouldn't have gone ahead imo. But it was before the Red system came in.

              • gsays

                So, yes, we can call it a superspreader event?

                • weka

                  you can all it whatever you like I guess, but I didn't follow closely enough to know what the numbers or spread were.

                  • gsays

                    It spread to the top of the political pyramid, but really the point is it was compliant, fully vaxxed event.

                    This pulls the emotional rug out of the narrative of the Welly protest being a SS event.

                    • weka

                      It spread to the top of the political pyramid…

                      What does that mean?

                      but really the point is it was compliant, fully vaxxed event.

                      This pulls the emotional rug out of the narrative of the Welly protest being a SS event.

                      Not following you. Are you saying that Soundsplash didn't cause a covid cluster?

                • McFlock

                  How many cases were linked to it, in the end? This link says 39, but shit changes as info comes in.

                  <100 out of 8,000 attendees is an issue, but "super"? Not sure. Shouldn't have happened, though.

                  • gsays

                    Yeah, first time I've seen any maths applied to the pejorative.

                    Wonder what the motive is now?

                    Nothing to see here.

                    • McFlock

                      First time I've seen someone ask the meaning of that particular pretty fuzzy term. I'm a quant guy. I look for the data.

                      I mean, compare that event with Sturgis 2021. Did our wee gig multiply the NZ rate by 7? Don't think so.

                    • gsays

                      That “pretty fuzzy term” has been part of the anti-anti-vaxx crowd for a while now. Bandied about with gay abandon.
                      Shoe on the other foot and suddenly we have to do fractions.

                    • McFlock

                      It's a bit like the term "tragedy".

                      Folks have certainly described soundsplash as a superspreader event. Either way, not sure what your point is. There were lots of people against that event going ahead because of contagion concerns, too. But then everyone attending that was supposed to be vaccinated. Wouldn't trust that to be the case here.

                    • gsays

                      It's a bit like the term "tragedy". And devastated.

                      "Either way, not sure what your point is. There were lots of people against that event going ahead because of contagion concerns, too."

                      Yep, after all, we are in the political phase of the response, not a health one.

                    • McFlock

                      Yep, after all, we are in the political phase of the response, not a health one.

                      Yep, compromised a bit because of politics, I think.

                      Otherwise we'd still have L4 and these jerks would have been hauled off parliament grounds toot sweet because of the public health risk alone.

        • William 22.1.1.2

          "Well, they’re at risk of lots of things including being run over or being injured or dying in a car crash. But for good reasons we don’t lower the speed limit to accommodate this low risk. "

          Actually we do lower speed limits to reduce risk. You're obviously ignorant about the Vision Zero policy that NZ has adopted for road safety. One aspect of that is reduction of some speed limits.

          The Blenheim to Nelson road speed limit has been reduced with a significant reduction in deaths & serious injuries.

          Napier to Taupo is likely to be reduced soon. Wellington's central area has been reduced to 30 km/h, and Auckland has reduced many. Those are the ones I'm aware of, there will be others.

    • Jenny how to get there 22.2

      Photos are appearing on the the internet of alleged police brutality against the antivaxxers.

      As well as spraying protesters in the face with pepper spray. (A first for New Zealand protests). The police are alleged to have dragged a woman out of the crowd and along the ground by her hair. Another women is said to be in hospital suffering with a broken sternum as a result of police assault.

      I blame the government for pitting the police against these protesters.

      I am sick and tired of the egotistic dick waving and giant egos (on both sides), that have led us to this completely unnecessary violence.

      Do we really need to go down this path?

      Can't we do something different?

      [lprent: You could do something different – don’t astro-turf this site with duplicate comments ]

      • lprent 22.2.1

        See my note on your comment.

        • Jenny how to get there 22.2.1.1

          Slow internet at my end, Sorry about that.. Comment didn't show up on lap top, so I thought it hadn't loaded. So posted again. Honest mistake.

          • lprent 22.2.1.1.1

            No problem. I have a seldom triggered alert for duplicate messages and I just delete one. But usually they are next to each other,a it alerts me to possible server side errors where is accepts duplicate messages, and I might need to look at a server side issue.

            This one appeared to be in two separate conversations. Makes my astro-turf antenna vibrate.

    • Stan 22.3

      Funny, I've not noticed many doctors or ICU nurses at the protest.

      Why is that? Either they're at work, fully vaccinated (pre-mandate), terrified of the possible horrors to come. Or, wait, the protestors are right, no need to wear masks or vaccinate. What do doctors or nurses know anyway…

  20. Adrian 23

    From yesterdays Daily Revue but at 8.58 this morning , Rosemary, you are an idiot, this occupation is not for the nurses and doctors , that is the most insulting thing you can ever possibly say. The Nurses and Doctors are dreading the surge of Covid if it is not managed and flattened, my wife, in her 60s and genetically compromised if she gets Covid, is resigned to the fact that that with Omicron she will catch it, she is shitting herself but determined to do her duty as are all the other nurses and medical staff from the house visitors to the senior surgeons.

    You should be ashamed of yourself.

  21. Jenny how to get there 24

    Photos are appearing on the the internet of alleged police brutality against the antivaxxers.

    As well as spraying protesters in the face with pepper spray. (A first for New Zealand protests). The police are alleged to have dragged a woman out of the crowd and along the ground by her hair. Another women is said to be in hospital suffering with a broken sternum as a result of police assault.

    I blame the government for pitting the police against these protesters.

    I am sick and tired of the egotistic dick waving and giant egos (on both sides), that have led us to this completely unnecessary violence.

    Do we really need to go down this path?

    Can't we do something different?

    • Muttonbird 24.1

      They did try to storm parliament, Jenny. They wanted to reenact the storming of The Capitol one year ago.

      Unlike DC police, NZ police did something about it.

      • Jenny how to get there 24.1.1

        Muttonbird

        11 February 2022 at 1:36 pm

        They did try to storm parliament, Jenny. They wanted to reenact the storming of The Capitol one year ago….

        Hi Muttonbird. Have you got a link to this alleged "storming of parliament".

        I really think we need to keep our heads here. And not make exaggerated unsubstantiated emotive allegations.

        What are you trying to do? Justify even more violent and heavy handed action against these protesters?

        Muttonbird, we really need to stay balanced and objective. Comparing these protesters to the political movement incited by Donald Trump to violently invade the US Capitol in an attempt to halt the presidential innaugeration and overthrow the democratically decided election result, is not what happened here.

        I defy you to claim otherwise.

        • solkta 24.1.1.1

          The protestors said that they had a "warrant to arrest" the Health Minister and that they were going to deliver it at 3pm. Shortly after 3pm the protestors attempted to push through police lines. "Hang them all" had been written on the pavement. Who knows what intentions they actually had?

        • Muttonbird 24.1.1.2

          I'm trying to show the intention of some of the protestors is to use angry violence to make their point. Those people have very strong parallels to the capitol rioters. Hard right, anti-establishment views and importantly they not afraid of using aggressive force.

          Not sure my language is exaggerated or particularly emotive. My language is 1/1000th as emotive as the language used by that mob.

          Solkta describes what they did. "Hang 'em high". I'm just thankful NZ police are better organised than DC police. It'll all be in the crowd/riot control manual.

          Seems obvious the woman you claim has been the subject of police brutality (if that is what you are claiming) was a danger to herself. Ugly viewing, certainly but police would have removed her as quickly and safely as possible under the circumstances, I'm sure.

        • gsays 24.1.1.3

          Kinda bit late to ask for the hyperbole to be dialed back.

          We are back to mid-last year with the calls for refusing medical treatment and tents erected in the car park, narrative.

    • Sanctuary 24.2

      Can't we do something different?

      WILL NOBODY THINK OF THE CHILDREN????

      • Jenny how to get there 24.2.1

        Sanctuary

        11 February 2022 at 2:14 pm

        Can't we do something different?

        WILL NOBODY THINK OF THE CHILDREN????

        Hi Sanctuary, you are obviously being facetious with this comment.

        But it does raise a serious question that does need to be answered.

        What about the children?

        As part of the police enforced eviction of the protesters, should we send in Oranga Tamariki under police guard to take the children separately?
        Or, should we round them up along with all the rest, with the chance that they may be hurt or trampled in the resulting melee.

        Personally I don't like the optics of either strategy.

        Rescind the trespass order. Call off the cops. Tow the cars.

      • Jenny how to get there 24.3.1

        When?

        Where?

        Who?

        The three Ws of good reporting.

        • McFlock 24.3.1.1

          tried clicky linky?

          When?

          March 2008

          Where?

          At an anti-GM protest in Rotorua

          Who?

          Simon Oosterman was the person sprayed by police.

          Didn't even have to listen to the recording for those answers.

          • Jenny how to get there 24.3.1.1.1

            How about that. Still a bad precedent.

            • McFlock 24.3.1.1.1.1

              It's not a precedent.

              These protestors have been treated pretty mildly compared to many genuinely peaceful protests about environmental harm or student fees, etc.

              It doesn’t make everything alright, but this lot aren’t being treated worse than anyone else.

              • weka

                The Grant Robertson?

                • McFlock

                  Didn't you know? OUSA has annexed the Labour party. At least 2 former OUSA presidents in caucus, another as advisor, and those are just the ones off the top of my head, lol

    • fender 24.4

      " Another women is said to be in hospital suffering with a broken sternum as a result of police assault."

      Surely if you asked someone in that crowd of feral twerps they will tell you the woman was deliberately crushed in the patrol car door prior to being run over by the PM in her 4×4.

      Then they'll tell you all 120 odd arrested have been sliced and diced to become pizza topping for the infamous Washington parlor that is a front for the child trafficking ring.

      • Anne 24.4.1

        Best giggle of the day.

        • Jenny how to get there 24.4.1.1

          "….Then they'll tell you all 120 odd arrested have been sliced and diced to become pizza topping for the infamous Washington parlor that is a front for the child trafficking ring." Fender

          "Best giggle of the day." Anne

          A giggle?

          Sure, if with this sort of comment your aim is other and dehumanise your opponents, to justify the use of force.

          What ever happened to "Be Kind" and "They Are Us"

          • McFlock 24.4.1.1.1

            That was before the swastikas and threats of hanging from the nutbar crowd.

          • Anne 24.4.1.1.2

            Grow a sense of humour jhtgt

            Do you think fender was being serious? I don’t think so. It was an attempt at a side-salad of humour and a good one too. Lets face it, the absolute garbage some of these protesters have been dishing up means a bit of levity is called for now and then.

            TS used to be a fun place as well as good reading on serious topics. There's still good reading to be found, but it seems to me there's a significant group of one issue, humourless individuals determined to undermine or misunderstand everything others might say. No wonder quite a few former regulars now bypass the site.

  22. Ad 25

    Huge love going out to the Filipaina family in particular that awesome Labour Councillor Alf Filipaina for the loss of his brother Olsen. If anyone can remember the last time we crushed GReat Britain, Australia and France inside a year, Olsen was one of the key players – and never took a backward step.

    Kaikohe sons done good.

  23. Ad 26

    Would it not be kinda karmic if the Wellington protests became the largest superspreader event New Zealand ever had?

    446 today, and it's going for 1,000 a day pretty quick now.

    • McFlock 26.1

      yeah the swoopy bit of the curve is here.

      I personally wonder if the q'town cases have anything to do with the national party conference.

      • weka 26.1.1

        do the dates match up?

        • McFlock 26.1.1.1

          No idea. I thought they had one there recently though.

          • Graeme 26.1.1.1.1

            Queenstown 'outbreak' (it's only two cases so far….) is probably related to the quite large number of people visiting, and residents traveling out of town. a lot of flights every day and most quite full.

            Sod all happening in CBD during the day for the last couple of weeks though. Less than sod all happening today…. May as well been in Level 4 lockdown

      • Poission 26.1.2

        Super rugby (aucklanders) q’Town

  24. Ad 27

    I was getting ready to do a post supporting the right to protest at Parliament …

    … until Action Zealandia posted aerial video of the protests and forced Bowen House security protocols to be changed.

    Security changed at Parliament's Bowen House after Action Zealandia posts video – NZ Herald

    Whether that was the hard right or hard left having a therapeutic yell, I'd want the Police to just shut that down.

  25. mac1 28

    I hear that a donut stall is handing out free donuts to all-comers at Parliament. Don't the antivaxxers know what's in the hole in the middle of a donut!

    • Poission 28.1

      Don't the antivaxxers know what's in the hole in the middle of a donut!

      A void,where by careful consumption they can eat around and miss nothing.

      • mac1 28.1.1

        It's actually a portal to the hole in the anti-vax brain through which misinformation can be transferred without thought or reason……

  26. Shanreagh 29

    Meantime out in the real world I went to my chemists today to pick up meds and some of the N94 masks. Chemist shop has been altered to the first lockdown setup with the wide counters right at the doorways. The wide counters protect the staff yet you can see and speak to them. The pharmacist said they were gearing up for Omicron, library has the scanning and vaccine passes set up now more streamlined..

    The masks and vaccine passes are to help against the spread, and mandates to make sure that people going to hospitals, eating out, children being taught etc are not infected by potential Covid spreaders. Bearing in mind my experience up until now, and borne out en masse at the protests there is a direct correlation between being unvaxxed and not wearing a mask.

    So bearing in mind that as a country we have yet to experience the full force of Omicron I cannot fathom why protestors think that right now is a optimum time to lift any health protecting rules.

    In fact judging by what I have heard on social media the crew down at the protest don't seem very clued up about is happening in NZ at the moment. For instance they did not realise that Winston Peters was not still in Parliament, they seemed to believe some arcane stuff that if you were being arrested you just needed to tell the police to go away three times, I guess like a spell. There was one that they believed that PM had sent a person with Covid into the crowd….

    Does anyone else have an idea why when Omicron is waiting in the wings and being slightly squashed by our public health efforts so far that right now is the optimum time to lift our restrictions?

    Does anyone know why, in general, unvaccinated people do not wear masks? I have heard that they believe you get lung cancer from wearing masks and/or that they do not like being told ie the old cutting your nose off to spite your face argument. Even the doughnut people at the protest who have been giving away food have caught the odd 'baa' or 'sheeple' from protestors they are helping.

    .

  27. Shanreagh 30

    [deleted]

    from Te Rangikaiwhiria Kemara @Te_Taipo

    Well that explains something…..covid deniers.

  28. UncookedSelachimorpha 31

    Best case scenario:

    This weekend, the weather peacefully resolves this daft protest

    Within six months, high vaccination rates and the omicron wave ends the need for the pandemic control measures.

    But dropping controls now – as the protesters demand – right at the start of what will probably be NZ's first really big wave of covid 19, seems a really bad idea.

    • Shanreagh 31.1

      That's what I think too……what is justification for dropping health controls just now when Omicron is clearly here and we have yet to see its full force……just crazy.

      The other query is how many of the protestors have actually lost their jobs due to being anti vax plus working in a mandated workplace?

      • UncookedSelachimorpha 31.1.1

        "The other query is how many of the protestors have actually lost their jobs due to being anti vax plus working in a mandated workplace?"

        Thinking about the numbers….

        MOH indicates that only 4% of the eligible 12+ population is not double dosed (these are the people who can be required to have, but cannot get, a vaccine pass).

        A handful of those 4% will have a legitimate exemption (so not subject to vaccine requirements). And only some of those 4% will be in workplaces that require vaccination (say 50% at most?). Minus the 12-16 year olds who mostly won't be working in the first place.

        So I think perhaps only 1-2% of the country's eligible population have work trouble due to the mandates. And of course with unemployment being low, getting another job isn't necessarily difficult (I know several local FreeDumb fighters who gave up their jobs – all have found new ones).

        • pat 31.1.1.1

          You appear to forget that for every person who has lost their employment (or other) due to mandates may have a partner, children, someone relying on them and/or whanau…the numbers grow exponentially.

  29. weka 32

    This is interesting. The sovereignty stuff isn't getting a lots of coverage, but I'd guess that is what this is about. There's a belief that the government is invalid and you don't have to do what they say. There's a whole movement doing legal work around this. I've not seen anything convincing, but it's an important part of the dynamic here.

    The use of particular words or phrases by protesters would not impact the arrest of anybody involved in unlawful activity.

    And under the Policing Act, anybody arrested and taken into police custody was required to provide their name, age, date of birth and address. They must also let police take their photograph and fingerprints.

    It’s an offence not to comply with these requests.

    These comments from police come in response to incorrect advice circulating on social media. The people posting the advice claimed there were ways to legally resist arrest by explicitly withholding consent.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/127742422/range-of-motivations-among-protesters-hamper-police-efforts-at-parliament

    • weka 32.1

      Wouldn't mind an explanation of this,

      Parnell earlier said police were working in an extremely difficult environment.

      • Shanreagh 32.1.1

        Dogs , babies including being nursed, toddlers, young people milling about, a couple of bicycles, a guy on crutches, a person in a wheelchair, naked people, people who appear to be up to their eyeballs in something (have a look at the person with the Taiaha who walked the boundary earlier today), and who may be irrational.

        Somewhere I read that Police had people to talk in the Convoy to about the road policing side of things but these people were not the ones in control now. Alpe gave an interview saying that this as not a collective but a group of individuals who had come together.

        The Parliament grounds site is porous. Many gates, low fences with minimal barriers to hopping over. The orange barriers are at the top of the stairs and will restrain a bit as it is more difficult to fight up stairs with a solid barrier at the top.

      • pat 32.1.2

        Self evident…he also noted a lack of leadership with which to engage.

    • UncookedSelachimorpha 32.2

      Tame Iti was interviewed on RNZ the other day.

      Not his best interview, but he thought the people at the protest with Maori flags and talking of Maori sovereignty were frauds. He has pursued Maori rights his whole life (and has been in many protests) and said that he had never seen any of those people involved with any of it.

    • gsays 32.3

      Try Freeman on the Land as an avenue to understand the Sovereignty aspect.

      • weka 32.3.1

        Sure, I just don't think the claims they make about law stack up in NZ.

        • gsays 32.3.1.1

          Started in Canada, and has moved through other Commonwealth countries. Similar legal systems as what we have here.

          • McFlock 32.3.1.1.1

            How many times has it actually worked?

            • gsays 32.3.1.1.1.1

              I don't wanna appear as a spokesfolk for them.

              I went a fair way down the path around 2007.
              Takes a fair bit of groundwork beforehand.

              From the ones I know, It is more about a way of being, not a get out of jail card you try and play once in jail.

              • McFlock

                In most of the taser youtube clips I've seen with that crowd, they seemed to think it was a "stay out of jail" card.

                Not sure I've ever seen a clip where the cop, bailiff, or judge apologised for exceeding their authority or jurisdiction and let the "free man" or "sovereign citizen" go about their day.

                • gsays

                  Yep, fair assessment.

                  TBF, a U Tube survey is not a fair representation of any community.

                  As a wider point, the notion (not legal definition) of individual sovereignty predates religion, goes way back, in our pysche.

                  • McFlock

                    Oh, for sure, especially on the youtube side of things.

                    I just don't see how it can work, legally, and I haven't ever heard of an instance of it working. I've looked. There are lots of sites describing the scripts and templates to use, but nothing about successful cases.

                    Like, there are a lot of youtube lawyers and so on who provide tips and techniques for dealing with cops, especially yanks. One I quite like for their frank delivery and simple messaging is the "pot brothers at law" – California based lawyers who specialise in marjuana. They have simple scripts (swearing warning), but also recordings of the script being used and working in real life.

                    Not seen any of that for the crowd pushing the legal equivalent of archaea.

                    • gsays

                      "I just don't see how it can work, legally…"

                      The difference between lawful and legal may help.

                      You are born free.

                      That changes when a birth (berth) certificate is filled out. That's when 'legal' comes into play.

                      Undo the binds of the birth certificate, lawful is paramount.

                    • McFlock

                      Seems a bit esoteric to discuss with a frontline cop.

                    • weka

                      So I understand the stuff about how one chooses to live one's life. I have friends that are into it. But like McFlock, I've yet to see an example of the legal side working in NZ. So when they're sending out emails saying just say this [whatever phrase] and the police can't arrest you, we know that they are wrong. I don't have a problem with them pushing new (or old) concepts of lawful and justice, I do have a problem if they're not being honest about how it plays out in real life.

    • solkta 32.4

      One idiot told the protestors that the police would have to let them go if they said "i don't understand, i don't consent" three times.

      • weka 32.4.1

        haha, I'd forgotten about that one.

        I mean, can they not stop and consider that people might have tried this already if it works.

        • solkta 32.4.1.1

          Drunk people have been trying it for many years.

        • McFlock 32.4.1.2

          What I like is that every so often someone does find a loophole, but it's almost never really worth it and is quickly resolved via legislation/regulation.

          In 2006 Timothy Gibson appealed a $60 parking ticket in court, and a routine request by the defense of proof that the dotted yellow lines were supposed to be there turned up that the original authorisation, if it existed at all, had likely been lost when the local bodies amalgamated in 1989. Therefore there was no proof the lines were supposed to actually be there. I remembered seeing it in the news at the time.

          Sure, he probably got mates' rates from the lawyer and maybe some costs, but over $60? lol.

          Maybe a bunch of tickets had to be refunded (if the ticketed people applied?), but the authorisations were duly checked and updated by the council: the loophole was swiftly closed. Although there might still be a couple of spaces around the place.

          It's good to ask the basic questions if things go to court, but I wouldn't bet my freedom on interwebs reckons.

      • Jimmy 32.4.2

        Apparently if you say "Beetlejuice" three times in a row something happens too.

  30. Adrian 33

    Weka , sorry I wasn’t able to add a link ( but I included the Date and Time ) but my iPad will not let me answer a comment directly, it does not bring up the cursor but will sometimes let me do it at the Leave a Comment at the end of all comments, as I have done here, and certainly not add a link. I have seen others complain of this problem.

    • satty 33.1

      Yep. Same here. This comment is done from my computer, not iPad.

      It's like this for as long as I can remember.

  31. Adrian 34

    Love him or hate him, Bob Jones’s cars were all owned by his dog. Councils and cops could never get the dog to plead in court.

  32. Peter 35

    A lovely confluence. I heard this morning that lots of kids were heading, being headed, to the protest. Now I see Northland's ex-MP Matt King is heading there! Not that there weren't already many at his level there for him to play with, but now he'll be so at home.

    I hope the drongo gets to make a speech. Likely he will as a move to join one of the dipshit parties and become (Oh my God!) one of their leading lights.

    • Shanreagh 35.1

      Matt King, Rodney Hyde and Winston Peters plus the 1000 individuals with individuals agendas as mentioned my Kelvyn Alp . Sure to be a winner. wink

  33. Shanreagh 36

    Oh dear placards about Alex Jones of Infowars and the old truisms about vaccine passes being the first stage of digital control, no money and etc etc.

    It is a little showery at the moment and so far the crowd seems to be playing to a largely spaced audience of Police. They keep looking longingly at the old Parliament Buildings as if someone will pop out and say:

    Hey its all right guys ….Cindy the pretty little commie here I was just joshing you. No more Covid, it doesn't exist I agree."

    Old Parliament buildings does not have the PM in it, Cabinet Ministers will mostly be home in their electorates or at their Wellington homes, staff have been encouraged to take off their IDs and leave for home early.

  34. Blade 37

    I have stated time and again that Jacinda has luck on her side. In fact take away her luck, and there's not much to see.

    Now it's raining. That MAY move protesters on. It would clean up her mistake of not addressing the crowd…while saving the government much embarrassment.

    Anyone believe she's not lucky?

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